Mid-Year 2025 Career Trends: Navigating the Job Market: AI, Summer Slowdowns, and Strategic Networking with Executive Recruiter Kristian Schwartz

The job market may be sending mixed signals, but one thing’s clear—companies still hire problem-solvers. In this episode, Jill talks with Kristian Schwartz, founder of The Montgomery Group, about navigating today’s complex hiring landscape with clarity, confidence, and strategy.

Kristian shares how AI is changing the game, how to use summer wisely, and what top candidates are doing differently right now.

• Why AI fluency is no longer optional—only 10% are using it well
• How to turn the summer slowdown into a strategic advantage
• What “builder-leaders” are—and why companies want them
• The right way to follow up after interviews (and when to walk away)

Show Guest: 

Kristian Schwartz founded The Montgomery Group, a boutique search firm specializing in senior-level marketing and media placements. 

Kristian is a seasoned strategic leader with deep experience on both the agency and client side, having worked at Wired Magazine, Razorfish, and Sapient, and partnered with brands like Visa, Verizon, Clorox, Unilever, and HP.

Show Notes:

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Career Refresh
• 2:10 AI's Impact on Job Market
• 4:24 Mixed Economic Signals
• 14:15 Growth-Focused Hiring Trends
• 20:22 Networking During Summer Slowdown
• 32:13 Follow-Up Strategies After Interviews
• 45:45 Feedback and Interview Process
• 52:23 Final Thoughts and Closing

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, welcome to the Career Refresh the show where we talk about strategy behind navigating your career, leading others and always keeping it fresh through reinvention and professional growth. I'm Jill Griffin, your host. I'm an executive coach, strategist and a former media exec. I've had about 25 years working at some of the world's top brands, leading teams through growth and transition, and now I help high performers and their teams align their strengths with their values, their performance goals, their identity and thrive through change. And speaking of navigating change, my guest today is a podcast favorite and he is back Christian Schwartz.

Speaker 1: 0:37

Christian is the founder of the Montgomery Group, a boutique search firm that specializes in senior-level marketing and media placements. He is a strategic leader with deep experience both on the agency side and the client side. He has worked at Wired Magazine, razorfish, sapien and has also partnered with world renowned brands like Visa, verizon, clorox, unilever and HP. He brings a wealth of very thoughtful strategic lens into hiring, growth and what it takes to stand out in today's job market. Christian, welcome, I love having you here. You are a perennial podcast favorite. Everyone loves hearing from.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Christian, you're so good. I just need to record this and listen to this intro more. Anytime. You need to pick me up, but I really was looking forward to this, because there's a lot that's going on. I love your views, you're honest, and I was just looking forward to this conversation because any way that I or we can help people hey, that's the name of the game Exactly Good to hear.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Thank you, and you're the best voice. I sound like a box of rocks, so I need to work on that, but that's a whole, nother conversation. I digress.

Speaker 1: 1:53

You're so funny. All right, Take us through. Why don't you start with some of the macro trends that you're seeing? And for anybody listening to, this we are recording in mid-June of 2025. So go for it. Tell us some of the macro trends that you're seeing.

Speaker 2: 2:09

Okay, perfect, let me share with you with what I'm seeing, but kind of a couple of things. It's like I want to make sure I'm not going to polish anything. Some things may be kind of pretty blunt. It's not meant for shock value, I just want to be honest. And then the other part is and I'm not a clickbait guy and it's really about actionable thoughts, like giving a thought without kind of how you action it. So everything here is going to have an action. But I think there are two macro themes. One is, let's call it, the environment overall, but the bigger one that I'm seeing, that is just we can't ignore it's AI and it is. I can't even begin to explain how big this is, and I go back to the early part of my career. I saw the internet take shape. This is exponentially bigger If you look at how fast it's growing, how fast it's changing, how fast it's changing everything.

Speaker 2: 2:57

And I play around with it. I use it a little bit for work, but it's more of what's. I've been using it for a lot of things outside of work and I speak with a lot of people and I ask them a question if they're using it. And I did my own research as well to validate who I'm speaking with. Maybe a third of people that I speak with are using it for basic prompts at best. One third of those people so 10% have done anything beyond a basic prompt, and that is woefully low. It's like you.

Speaker 2: 3:29

Ai is the price of entry and it needs to be absolute mastery. Are you going to be the person using it? Maybe not, but do you need to know it, to know how that tool in your toolbox can be applied? Yes, and I think that's the biggest thing for people is just learn it, own it and make it core to what you do and how you think. It's a force multiplier. It's not going to replace you, but it's a force multiplier and that's number one. What I'm seeing is it's everything right. I listen to CNBC every morning. Unemployment is actually trending down. Unemployment is looking better. Right, there's the tariffs. That's impacting a little bit. Payroll ads appear to be up, job openings are kind of holding flat and it's this weird state of if we look around in our world, jill, you would say, wait, those numbers are wrong. Right. At the same point, you see, and, like you, look at the stock market and it's up, everything is pointing a different direction.

Speaker 1: 4:25

It's so bizarre. It's so bizarre yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:29

Look every single day I'm looking for more directional pointers and they continue to point in different directions. I was hoping for a rate cut yesterday. The Fed did not cut. They signaled, but did not officially announce, that there'll be two rate cuts this year, and I think it's a matter of it comes down to tariffs. It comes down to rate cuts this year and I think it's a matter of it comes down to tariffs. It comes down to rate cuts. But I do feel, and from speaking with people, there appears to be a coiled up need because even coming off COVID, things were leaner. Companies became even more lean with, let's call it, the thinification and that's going to leave holes and those holes need to be filled and those holes need to be filled and those holes need to be rounded out. And there's some hesitation on making those hires because what is the economy going to do? What is the need? What are the impacts of tariffs?

Speaker 1: 5:13

And if I need to borrow the money at a higher interest rate to pay for those employees. I don't want, I don't want to Right, and I just I just did an episode for the podcast around how that entry-level career ladder is broken. But I also think it's a false flag in many ways. I'm not saying that recent college grads haven't had a problem they absolutely have but the idea that AI is going to take every single position entry-level right now. It's just not simply true. There are careers absolutely in which we can eliminate that entry level position right now, but that doesn't mean that small business and companies have implemented that technology. So there are opportunities still for that junior level.

Speaker 2: 5:57

See, and that's where I'm an optimist, like, maybe after spending all that time in consulting, you become an optimist where it's not a challenge, it's an opportunity. And if I go back to my very first job, I learned PowerPoint my senior year of college. Look, I'm old, it was a long time ago. I remember sitting in a classroom thinking like when am I ever going to use this Right?

Speaker 1: 6:13

And then, you went into advertising.

Speaker 2: 6:17

I did a new PowerPoint in 1995. And the C-level executives were like wait, this intern knows it. I was sitting in there with the C-level people. It became this elevator for my career. And when I look at AI, it's the exact same thing, where there's the job, but then there's the job plus one, and I think people think that way there's that opportunity. I'm just very kind of, I'm positive too there's that opportunity.

Speaker 1: 6:44

I'm just very kind of. I'm positive too. I will say I am a little nervous. What I'm reading over the last week or so is that Trump's current budget bill would ban states from regulating AI for 10 years, and that means like without any legislative oversight at the state level. The public is going to be contending with how AI is shaping their future, whether they like it or not. You know, silicon Valley is a powerful lobbying powerhouse, so I think we need to be also thinking about that and if we like it, do nothing. If we don't like it, we also need to be calling our representatives and letting them know that we can't have another Section 230 on our hands where there is no accountability or legislation that protects our people. So I think that also is something for people to be thinking about too, if they haven't seen that.

Speaker 2: 7:30

Yeah, and it's almost like look, history has a tendency to repeat itself. And you know, I think it's a good time to read 1994, just to refresh ourselves 84.

Speaker 1: 7:38

1984.

Speaker 2: 7:40

Did I say oh wow, I'm dating myself 94.

Speaker 1: 7:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:43

You can edit that one out. I'm kidding, Leave it no we'll leave it.

Speaker 1: 7:45

It's fun.

Speaker 2: 7:47

I will say, though, if I look at the major trends that I'm seeing, it's roles are getting approved and it's about growth. At the end of the day, it's about growth. If a role is going to drive growth, it will get approved, fact and at and you know, at the same point it's going to drive growth. But it's the profile of that person that is needed, and let's call it the. You know the corner office, ivory tower, shiny object person gone. That profile is will not see the light of day and it is a leader. But that person is a is a builder, and they are. They see the big picture. They also understand the pipes and the plumbing and how to direct the team to make things work, and they can come in and they can make an impact practically day one. It's not saying they're swinging a hammer, but they understand how to apply the tradecraft. And I also think there's a curious focus and a human-centric profile that wins the day, and I'm trying to understand how to turn this into research. I could speak with a hundred people for a search when I speak with someone, and I always ask the same questions, which is tell me what you've been working on most recently and what do you want to do? I want to hear elevator level description. It's amazing how some people what do I want to do? They want to solve this incredibly complex problem. They are curious, they will be open. These are my strengths and these are my weaknesses. It's all out on the table. They are there with absolute, pure intent. When that happens, it's like the C parts.

Speaker 2: 9:21

That's the person, and I worked on a search recently with a private equity firm. It was an absolute masterclass in how it came together and what I really loved about this. My client said this I can't take credit, but often with a candidate, you get two thirds of what you're looking for and the remaining one third is a gap. A gap can be seen as a negative or a factor, just whatever it is. But but her response to that was where does this person need support? What is that one third support area? And it kind of blew me away to think about it that way and I just think it's if it goes to. What is the trend? Orgs are flatter. You need to come in effect. Change. You need to be human and just be a really strong, fit kind of the I'm everything. That, that no longer there. That that no longer, that no longer applies.

Speaker 1: 10:12

I'm just going to pile on that Cause, the amount of times that I hear people say where I can do anything, or or I don't know what I want to do. And it's like I understand that you might not know exactly what you want to do but, depending on your situation right now, if being employed is a mandatory meaning there is no excessive bank account to keep you afloat or there's nobody to help, anything that's not aligned with your values and ethics, I'm just saying, like, right now, look at your resume and find a way to be able to answer the questions you said what do I do? I would go at a step further and have people be thinking about who did I interact with on a regular basis? I want to hear clients, I want to hear titles. I want to know oh, you're able to talk to the board regularly. You're not. You know you're not having a challenge if you have to talk to the board or the C-suite executives, or you're not having a challenge talking to the interns and scaring the crap out of them, right?

Speaker 1: 11:12

Who, like what, did you do? Who do you talk to and who did you interact with? And then, lastly, what value did you create? You need to be able to tell really simply the value you created. And if you're saying to me you want a job and you want to be reemployed and then you're saying I don't know what I want to do, I would look at your past experience and see if there's something that you can lean into, because it's not a general market. It's we're hiring for impact and we're hiring for specificity. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 11:41

Yes, Now I will sometimes speak with people and they'll say you know what I'm opportunistic. It depends upon the situation.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Fair.

Speaker 2: 11:47

Yeah, fair, I'm okay with that. Some recruiters don't like that, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with that too.

Speaker 1: 11:50

where four bullet?

Speaker 2: 11:51

points new job. Four bullet points new job, four bullet points, new job. And the last three jobs haven't changed. You haven't adjusted your bullet points or your story in five, six, seven, eight years. You need to rerun your story, in my opinion, through that filter of the modern world. What is your story? And it goes, and this is where I'm skipping forward a little bit. But if I'm going to hire you as a marketer and you can't tell your own story, how are you going to tell the story? And you're telling me you're an amazing story storyteller for your brand, but then your story is falling flat. Right, so many people. It's like wait, you're a CV on my desk. You know well, I have. I'm looking around, I have stacks of those right. Where is the person that has differentiated him or herself through a thank you note, through sending me an article that may be of interest to me? Fill in the blank, right, like something around your brand, and that is just, I think, one thing that is missing. Sorry, I feel like we went off track.

Speaker 1: 13:03

No, I know, but I want to pile on that too, and then we'll come back to macro trends. I would even say, if you did not get the job or you did not get the offer, but you like that company and you really enjoyed the people you met along the way, I would stay in touch with them through the article that you've seen and showing them how you're thinking or you know you're saying I understand. Thanks so much for the experience. I'd like to stay in touch. Great Now send them an article a week or two later that shows how something you talked about and what you're seeing and how it might apply and just being useful to people and staying top of mind. I've seen quite a few times where somebody didn't get the job but because they stayed in connection, a month or two later they were brought back in for another opportunity that was adjacent and they were the candidate. I've seen that more than once.

Speaker 2: 13:51

Look time, time and time again. And there is the art and there is the science of hiring. And the science is kind of perfect fit that doesn't happen very often and it's the art. And I can't tell you how many times I'm speaking with a client and or anyone for that matter and they may mention a pain point. It's like OK, stop, let's just dig into that, let's let's talk about that pain point. And it's like you know, would you like to speak with someone that I know that has solved that exact problem problem? I'm just making an introduction just because it's quite honestly, it's the right thing to do. You'd be amazed how many of those have turned into hires right, because the need isn't always diagnosed.

Speaker 2: 14:32

But if you're the real solve for the problem and it's finding the right problem at the right time. And now it's hard, it's really hard, but at the same point, well, it's just, life is hard right and it's increasing that frequency. So, jill, yes, that's all I can say. Yes.

Speaker 1: 14:48

Yes, okay, coming back, you started to talk about AI and how people need to be not just like surface area, but actually using it. I have a client right now who has asked AI to create a training program for her on AI, so it has given her a week-by-week training program of what she should know and what she needs to do, based on what she works with in the technology space, what she needs to be doing. So really, really brilliant, okay, what else are you seeing as some of the macro trends?

Speaker 2: 15:20

Yeah, I would say look, there's the strategic hiring which I hit on, you know. Look. Another thing is return to office. Fact, people are going back. It's going back three to four days a week. There's the outlier of a company that is pure remote and, at the end of the day, if you choose to not lean in, you will be opted out, and that's. I don't make the rules, I have my opinion aside.

Speaker 1: 15:45

I think that's just a fact. Yeah, it's also an easy way to reduce workforce by just saying come back to work, and then they don't have to worry about you opted out. I don't owe you unemployment now.

Speaker 2: 15:53

Yes, now I do think. My personal opinion is that I think five days a week is onerous. I would say if it is return it's three to four days a week. But again, my recommendation you go.

Speaker 2: 16:04

Organizations are getting flatter, but in some ways I think that's good because people look bureaucratic. Organizations have a tendency to move slow, so I think it's good, but I think things can become too flat and that's where I really wonder about coaching and how people are set up for success versus spread thin. You know, this is also interesting too is that I took a look at my own LinkedIn network over the course. We set this meeting up you know what a month ago and in each week I looked at LinkedIn to see who in my network was was looking, and it's about 40% of people on my network are looking. I ran some separate research and that showed also it's interesting how things line up 40% of people are looking and I think just some of the macro trends are.

Speaker 2: 16:49

There's this massive log jam right now and it's really about kind of intentionality and focus and precision what we spoke to earlier. Just because with everything being so backed up, unless you're really focused and precise and just authentic, it's not going to fit and I think then you're just taking an opportunity from somebody else. It's almost through the karmic lens, okay, you know let's talk about summer.

Speaker 1: 17:18

I have lots of thoughts here, but let's talk about summer.

Speaker 2: 17:20

Yeah, it's funny you read that was my next thought that. So, okay, look here's. Here's. What I see is there's seasonality to this, there's seasonality and there's seasonality even down to the weeks, and what I tell people that are looking is you may have a busy week, you may have a slow week and there can be a lag effect. For example, after, let's say, after Easter, people were traveling. If a few people are out, that could slow a brief down from finding its way to me and that's real. So I think don't look at it day by day, look at it kind of bigger, bigger picture. Summer is going to be slow and summer is slow because people go on vacation. People are out, people's heads are elsewhere. Even if there's an active search and I'm dealing with this right now it's very tough to get meetings scheduled because people are on vacation. They're on vacation.

Speaker 1: 18:08

Yeah, but you can network, you can network.

Speaker 2: 18:12

There we go and that's exactly it. It's an opportunity to network. It's an opportunity to retrench. It's an opportunity to go back to what we were saying earlier, to define your story, to look at your LinkedIn. It's an opportunity to learn AI. It's an opportunity and, at the end of the day, it's like what is your strategy and how do you use moments when it's busy to use that for outreach, because you don't want to do outreach on, let's say, tuesday after a three-day weekend? Right, it's slow, hold your powder until the next week. People are busy that week and it's kind of when and where to pull versus being in reactionary mode Because I think if you need to panic.

Speaker 2: 18:52

don't panic, but rather think long game and think strategically.

Speaker 1: 18:57

So that's my opinion I would add to that Christian is we're talking US-centric. So everybody look at the calendar and your own market and your own region. So if we're getting really clear what I have seen over the last 10 years of doing, this July 4th week, it hits on a Friday. This year, the week up to it it's gonna be really slow. So save your energy that week. Maybe that's the week that you also take a pause. If you're looking right, we find that a lot of parents are dropping kids off at college mid-August. Guess what? August 15th to 20th or so is probably going to be really slow. It doesn't mean it is, it's just saying based on past trends. And then, same thing, guess what, last week into summer, into Labor Day, also a time that's going to be slow. This does not what I'm telling you. This is I want you to work on your mindset during those times. Don't freak out those weeks that no one's responded to you.

Speaker 1: 19:51

You remember where you are in the calendar. Look, I always think of that Downton Abbey quote by the Dowager, right, where she's like weekend, what's a weekend? Right? When you're unemployed, every day kind of feels the same. But just remember that other people are still following sort of a workplace calendar. So that's the time where make those appointments for coffees. Can you get face-to-face with people. Not everybody is out. It's great networking weeks, even if you're interviewing is on hold. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:25

If you're looking at it, it's to your point. It's breaking it down to manageable pieces and I've talked about this before. So I promise I'll go quick and I won't be a broken record and, jill, I'll supply this document to you to share out. But it's a document I created called Win a Day, and when I was looking for a job in the past, I found myself I had twins that were born. I for a job in the past, I found myself I had twins that were born. I was obviously stressed. I was wondering is this the end of my career? It was tough and it wasn't. But these are the things that you think and I basically was like wait, I need to break this down into bite-sized pieces so I can be good to myself and my family and just everybody around me.

Speaker 2: 20:57

And at five o'clock I would ask myself one simple question with a checklist, which is did I have a win? And when things were busy, I may have three interviews that day, that's a win. If things are slow, did I conduct research and work on outreach that day? That's a win and it's a matter of. If you stack that up consistently, you will have the macro win and I think it's a. There's another article on luck which I love, which is luck is increasing frequency. If you're skilled and you increase the frequency, it's going to work. So increase frequency and then the luck presents itself Like. I love that concept.

Speaker 1: 21:33

Talk a little bit you've mentioned this to me before about turning that lull into leverage and that you have some sort of strategic things that you think people should do during that lull.

Speaker 2: 21:43

Yeah, I think it's really tell your story. What is your strategy, define your strategy, focus on your skills. It's really double and triple down on that strategy and that strategic fit so you can make it happen. Right, don't do the spray and pray. I also think you know I think this is also really interesting is people. I sometimes get a phone call and it breaks my heart a little bit and they say I was just impacted Can you help me get a new job Now? I would love to, but, at the same point, the strategic probability of me helping you know, let's say, I have a network of 10,000 people. It's going to be low, right, and it's really about your network and that's where I think that is the most important thing with that law, which is go through your network and find those people. And there's a great article and again, jill, I'll give you access in about the long tail of your network. Those are the people that are helpful.

Speaker 2: 22:43

If I look, when I started out in search, it wasn't my client that I worked with most recently. I thought that's where all my projects were going to come from. It was some people that I haven't spoken to for 10 years and they would call out of the blue and say I see you're now doing this. I loved working with you before and it was strange because you either thought maybe they forgot about you or you thought I've lost touch. So, therefore, I don't have permission to then reestablish this person and those are the people. Therefore, I don't have permission to then reestablish this person.

Speaker 2: 23:12

And those are the people. One is just beautiful to connect with them. We're all grown up, we're adults, we have kids. Wow Right, life has changed and I think it's to really focus on that intentionality. Don't spray and pray, don't do the reactionary what is, what is your story? What is your desired outcomes and be very strategic but intentional to make that work. I think that's the most important thing, and to really frame that and to craft that Was that helpful. I feel like I just threw it.

Speaker 1: 23:39

Yeah, yeah, no, that is. I want to come back with something because you've also said this to me before, which I love is that business problems don't go on vacation, don't go on vacation. So when you're thinking about that, turning those power pauses into a networking approach, right, one of the things that I think people could be spending time in is when we're going into flatter organizations player coach. If I'm a senior person and you're falling into that idea of like, oh, it's a flatter organization, we don't know if we need it Again, the business problem doesn't go away just because people on vacation. How could someone be thinking through the player growth coach roles and start to gain like steam? How are they? How they position themselves as both a doer and a strategist?

Speaker 2: 24:26

Yeah, I would say like here, here's an example is. Example is I'll be a little bit honest, but my attention deficit disorder serves me well in this, in this role, and so I'm always just looking around, I'm thinking, and you know, let's say, for example, there's a, there's a Kava by my house and Kava just launched a loyalty program. Great, Right, let's say you're a loyalty person, We'll just go down that rabbit hole, you know. Reach out to the CMO and just say you know, hey, love your loyalty program. I went in, go in and experience it. Right, Do some research. Don't send a large diatribe. Who doesn't want to receive an email to say you know what you just launched? This significant program Could be a campaign. Fill in the blank. I went in and I thought it was great. Maybe there's a small tweak that you have. You know, just kind of use your own best judgment. Don't be there to sell, but just be there to say you know, hey, kudos.

Speaker 1: 25:23

Really well done.

Speaker 2: 25:25

Who does not love receiving an email like that? Right, you know you're not going to send the person an email and say I am a 30-year loyalty veteran, right Delete. But it's like a genuine, sincere acknowledgement where you actually did your homework. Now that person may respond and say thank you. That's then your opportunity to again read the tea leaves, see if you can, somehow, maybe. Hey, I would love to talk with you about 20 minutes to get a sense of what you're seeing. I happen to be looking, if you're comfortable. Please do not feel obligated because, look, networking fatigue is real. Give the person an opt-out. They may take it, they may not. If they don't, that's okay. Just keep in touch, right. And I think it's where, like I don't believe it or not, actually I don't work on business development, I merely just put good intentions out there. I'll send emails like that. Some may convert, some may not. The intent isn't for it to convert. The intent is just to take care of my network Right, and be in the inbox and still create residence and reach.

Speaker 2: 26:32

And that's where you know, look, at the end of the day, there is some hole burning in the pocket of an organization and I guarantee you, there was a recent board meeting and that leadership team was torn apart by the board for said problem. The CFO may not be willing to authorize that new role, to approve it, to solve that problem, but right after the board meeting, I'll tell you what. You know what, that CFO will approve it and if you can identify that problem and get in front of it and you're the solution, you go to the front of the line. It's not a matter of we need to search, it's a matter of you have solved this problem. Builder profile builder leader right. Going back to that, wait, we can hire this person day one. They can come in and they can make an impact. Who doesn't want to make the pain go away? Yeah, that is, and you know. Okay, maybe it's not a full time role, maybe it's contract Great, you know what? I think that can actually be even better, because try to give you a taste.

Speaker 2: 27:23

How many companies did you work for that were crazy, right? You know you're married on the first date and I think it's just to think in that way and to give yourself that permission where you can do that. Now, if you've only worked with very small regional companies and you're reaching out to the CMO of Kava, okay, maybe that's not the right fit, but again, use your best judgment and you'll kind of know if you have that credibility, if you will, to reach out.

Speaker 1: 28:00

And I would say that this would be a good opportunity for you to open Chatty G, as I like to call it, or Claude, which I also like, for writing and put in your scenario. I recently was in a CAVA and I want to reach out to the CMO and provide a couple of tips based on these three things I said. I said now, right, so you're. And then go back through it and make sure it sounds human, not anodyne and not robotic. Right, but you can use it and put your own personality in spin. We're not using AI to cut and paste, we're using it to prompt thought. And then I want you to put your own personality and spin on it. And and then I want you to put your own personality and spin on it.

Speaker 1: 28:29

And if you're asking people if they could help you, I want you to be super clear. Can I have 10 minutes of your time? If it's open-ended, it might be like I don't have an hour to give this person this week because I'm so busy. Can I have 10 minutes of your time? And the last thing I'd say on that is that, if you are looking because you may not have the email address to the CMO there's a great tool called rocketreachcom and you can pull emails off of that. They'll help you understand the naming convention. You still got to get the person's first and last name right and put it in, but they will let you know what the naming convention is of the domain so that you can send an email.

Speaker 2: 29:05

Yeah, and you know, and I would even go.

Speaker 2: 29:06

You know, jill, I would love your take here, right, and look, I'm, I'm not young, I'm not old, right, I consider myself wise, right.

Speaker 2: 29:13

But think of it this way If I don't have the person's email, what if I sent that person a wonderful letter, Right, like, I'll be honest, I love getting things in the mail and for me to hold a wonderful piece of paper that's well-crafted, with somebody's signature, that's you, I don't know, and I think some people may recognize it, some people may not. But again, you're not an email in an inbox, because my inbox is not, it's not a place of happy for anybody, but like a wonderful piece of mail. There's, okay, there's a clothing store that I go to, the person that I go to when I buy things there, he always sends me handwritten thank you notes and whatever I buy, my most recent purchase, he'll send me like a little sketch of it. I have a drawer full from baby. I love it and I can't get rid of them because they're just too precious, and I think if you can somehow put your brand in that respect I don't know, I think there's something there.

Speaker 1: 30:09

I love, that it has to be authentic, yes, and that personal touch, yes. Okay, so we have the summer low, which we've talked about. We know that there'll be a surge that comes later August, september, depending again on your region and where you're at. So what should people be doing? Like if they're networking throughout the summer, putting out reaches out again, I don't care if people are answering or not You're building the muscle, you're making practice, you're finding some people to be meeting and connecting with. Okay, we're September. What's their plan? What should they be doing?

Speaker 2: 30:44

Yeah, your plan to start activating on that outreach and to really like who are you going to reach out to in advance? Right, like now, it's like who am I going to target? What are the roles? How am I going to make this happen? Kind of adjacent to that is what is my story, right, and it's to begin to tee that up through those soft touches so that when September happens, you can turn it on Right, and it's almost like having you know, let's call it an A, b and a C column, right, c is you know, let's call it low pipeline and A is top Right, and you may move things within that spreadsheet and your goal each week is to move things forward, because by the time C hits low, low funnel, right, that's where you want to be, because if you start that process in mid-August, it's too late.

Speaker 2: 31:27

People are on vacation, right, and it's really about, I think it's about getting ahead of it, and I also think I think this is important is some people reach out and it's almost like hey, what do you have for me? And it just sits weird, right, so good, and and it just, it, just, it doesn't sit well where some people it's like how are you? And it's you know, like how are you? Because everyone is dealing with something and that is just so lovely. And I think the other part is you know, hey, because the recruiter, everyone calls the recruiter and they want something. But it's like how can I help you? And it's like wow, right. And I think it's, if you're looking and you're networking with somebody else, that person may not be a person that could hire you, but that person may need to know people yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:21

And you may know somebody and it's just the right thing to do. And I think it's really look, the system is broken, meaning the hiring process help people, and it's just the right thing to do. I can't tell you, jill, how many times I will speak with someone that I know there's no active search. You could try to say, hey, can I get a fee? But you're going to be that recruiter and I won't be that person. It's like, hey, you should call so-and-so because they do just that. And it's like, again, file that under just the right thing to do, right, it's not about leading with dollar signs, it's intentionality and just look to help and it's gonna come back. It's gonna come back. I think that is so important and it's just putting it out there and staying consistent and I think it's also being realistic.

Speaker 2: 33:08

Some people are very unrealistic and you mentioned this once before and I was really impressed with the way you thought about this. And it's like what is your pipeline? What is the challenge with your pipeline optimization to achieve said outcome? Because marketers do that Funnel optimization. Are you doing that for yourself? And I was kind of like, huh, just I don't know. It was interesting. I think it's to really assess and really optimize that yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:36

I think also what I would say there is again, this is marketing speak. And if you don't totally understand, you can go to your friend chat, gpt and understand what we're talking about. But if you're not getting a call back or an email back, you have a top of the funnel issue. You don't have enough engagement and awareness. You have a top of the funnel issue. It's about rest versus depth. At that point, how many can you send out?

Speaker 1: 34:06

And again, we're still keeping in mind that we're being intentional. It's not a spray or pray, that's not what we're saying. We're saying that if you've only done one outreach this week, that's a top of the funnel issue. There's not. You're not enough out there that you're catching opportunity right, that I would say what if you aimed for one a day and at least we're getting five right, so that top of the funnel. And then if you're getting into the interview, right, so that top of the funnel. And then if you're getting into the interview but you're not getting a call back or you don't make it past the screener, that's a mid funnel issue. You're not converting. That tells me that there's something about the story you're telling that's not fitting the job description. Not every job description is going to be right for you. But if you get somebody on the phone or you have a pre-screener and you find that you're not landing, then there's something you want to look at in your story. What do you see, christian?

Speaker 2: 35:00

yes, and I see people not paying enough attention to that or being the blind self and not assessing that and repeating the same behaviors. And with what you just said, I mean that's the perfect opportunity for our friend chat GPT, right, which is I'm going to feed you the roles I've applied for my resume, my cover letter, the feedback that I was given, the job description, the threads, back and forth. Maybe you interviewed, maybe it was a phone interview. For example, I use granolaai for note-taking, which is amazing, but you can also then import it into chat GPT and there are things that you may not have heard, that you said, or things that they may have said, and you can say give me feedback, where was I fit, where was I not a fit? And then you can say, hey, based on you know, this search and all of your information, what learnings can I have? And I guarantee you look, is it going to be perfect?

Speaker 2: 36:07

No, is it directional feedback? Absolutely, and that will give you feedback. That is your blind self. You probably would have missed 80% of the stuff in there and I think that's the key thing where it's process improvement, because the more you do the same, the more you'll get frustrated, and the more you're frustrated, the more you don't show up, and that's a negative cycle, yeah, and it's reversing that cycle.

Speaker 1: 36:29

Yeah, and in your practice, like I love what you just said there about another strategic way of using AI, In your practice you could also say, based on this job description and my resume, ask me questions. If you're the engineer, the head of engineering, what questions might they ask me so I can be prepared? What questions might you know the founder be asking me versus HR, and really the amount of times people tell me that they stumble on so tell me about yourself? Here's the hint no one. It's not really about you, it's about them and their company. They're not saying you can't say anything personal like oh, I just came back from a great vacation, Sure, Whatever, but it's about aligning. When they say, tell me about yourself, aligning who you are and your career narrative to the job description and the company's mission. That's what they're asking for.

Speaker 2: 37:23

Yeah, and do, look, go through and do all of your regular research, Always do your research At the same point. You know this is a great example. There's someone I was speaking with last week and he said he was about to have an interview with a. We'll just say Google, we'll change the company's name and you know it's like oh great, great company, very Great company, very senior role, vp level role. They obviously have a very specific style of interviewing. Hey, are you going to use ChatGPT to practice your interview? And the response was no, and rather there is a copious amount of information about how Google conducts its interviews.

Speaker 2: 37:57

You, in theory, could replicate that same exact interview using the app with the voice. I use it all the time to talk to it and then basically say, hey, let's go through three trial scenarios. Give me the first, give me feedback. Let's go through the second. And did I make improvements? What can I do? Because it's there's you and there's how you show up, right? I know a lot of great people that just don't show up well, and that's okay, because if they don't show up well, but if I know they're great, if I've known them for some time, I'll support them. Because, just because you don't show up well in the interview doesn't mean you're the perfect person. It just means you need some support. But not every company will give you that. And if a company will give that to you, great. But if Chad GPT can help you get out of your own way, there we go.

Speaker 1: 38:46

Right, yeah, yeah, and it's all there. The tools are there. Okay, I was a couple of super tactical questions. Um, I know you're a huge fan of thank you notes handwritten, so am I, if not emailed? If you don't handwrite, at least email? Cover letters is a big debate on if they require a cover letter, you got to send one If it's optional. Question one is should they send one and two? What I often see is the cover letter just repeats the resume and it's like yawn. So what are you seeing in best practices within cover letters?

Speaker 2: 39:20

Yeah, that's a good one. So I'll be honest, I don't read cover letters. What I will, I will skim them and you know, let's go back pre-ai. There were probably three or four cover letters that I saw that were just so well written, they were just brilliant and actually I shared it with the resume of, like. This person is an amazing storyteller, Like this. This cover letter is such a piece of art that it had to be included. Right At the same point I started to notice a trend.

Speaker 2: 39:53

Maybe it was last summer. There were a lot more great cover letters coming through and it's kind of like oh, it's AI and actually one. I'll be honest, it's AI and actually one. I'll be honest, it fooled me and I think I even asked the candidate and then I ran it through software that said it was completely AI written and I even commented to that person that it was a great cover letter and, I'll be honest, they didn't admit it. Now, this is a real gray area. Should they have admitted it or not? Now, this is a real gray area. Should they have admitted it or not? At the end of the day, just don't do it. Don't do it right Now. Is it there to guide you Is there to give input. Do you run it through Grammarly Sure, go for it. But if it's not, you and your words, when you show up day one, it's just it's going to be a disconnect and that's just. It's going to be a disconnect, it's and that's just. Don't, don't, don't, do it.

Speaker 1: 40:46

Right, it's like having a 10 year old dating profile photo, like who's actually showing up here?

Speaker 2: 40:53

Yes, yes, I do need to update my LinkedIn picture, but that's a whole nother problem. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 40:58

Jill yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:59

Right, but I think it's just to be authentic. Whereas maybe you're not a great writer that's okay that doesn't mean you may not be great at what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 41:07

But do you think a cover letter should be a reiteration of the resume or is there another take on the cover letter?

Speaker 2: 41:16

There has to be another take. Look, I don't want to read a reiteration of your resume. I can look at your resume and so I would say no. And I'll be honest if somebody can send a wonderful three to five sentence articulation, that is soulful. That's going to get me every time Right. Can you say more with less? The long diatribe nobody has time. People, they still. What is it? Seven seconds the average person spends on a resume.

Speaker 1: 41:45

I think it's eight on a LinkedIn profile and seven on the resume.

Speaker 2: 41:49

Look. And here's the other thing. This happens time and time again. I'll be speaking with a client Maybe we're having a conversation and I will say, hey, I just sent through a new profile, I'd love to get your feedback. You hear them clicking on the keyboard. They're not opening the resume, they're going to the LinkedIn profile. And you know I have nothing to prove this, but you know, you go to the LinkedIn profile, you skim it and you look at the picture. Human beings are visual. That's the fact, right, and it's just for some reason, people go to LinkedIn and they skim LinkedIn before they even look at the resume. And by the time they skim LinkedIn, the decision is made. Whether it's right or wrong, it's just kind of how it works.

Speaker 1: 42:33

Okay, last question, this one I get asked a lot how often should I be following up? Let me be clear I went on the interview, I wrote my thank you notes to everyone and, whether it's the recruiter or even HR, depending on how the interview is set up, how often can I follow up? I interviewed last week and I haven't heard anything.

Speaker 2: 42:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:58

I hear that a lot.

Speaker 2: 43:00

Yeah, so there's a real problem with ghosting and that's just unacceptable. And something that I strive for is that, by the time I leave the office every Friday, all of my clients and every candidate will know where everything stands as they head into the weekend. Right, that's just a courage.

Speaker 1: 43:17

Even if you're saying so, even if it's like hey, jill, just want to let you know I don't have any updates with you, know, and yet have a great weekend. So even you'll send a proactive, no news email.

Speaker 2: 43:33

Absolutely, jill, I know you interviewed on Tuesday waiting for feedback. Some people were out of the office. They're working to gather feedback. I'm hoping to have it early next week. I will reach out as soon as I hear just those gentle touches because, look, it's emotional and going into a weekend your head does not need to be thinking about work. But if you know, people are on vacation it's not me, at least you know and that's where I, I and again, I try. I'm not perfect but I try to do that. Not every company does that and I'm not a fan and that's a whole nother conversation. A fan and that's a whole nother conversation. I would say the opposite end is some people will be, you know, waiting for three weeks and they don't reach back and that can be negative, kind of let's consider that a lack of interest if the candidate doesn't reach out, so it's weekly.

Speaker 1: 44:14

Okay, can I? Can I email them weekly?

Speaker 2: 44:18

I would say maybe every other week, just to slow the cadence down a little bit, right? So let's say I interview on Monday, let's say it's Friday. I haven't heard back.

Speaker 1: 44:28

And maybe you wait, and I've sent my thank you notes. Obviously, that's all been done. Okay, it's Friday. I haven't heard back. When am I allowed to reach out again?

Speaker 2: 44:37

Yeah, I would say maybe wait until. Wait until Tuesday, okay, and you know, and and when I, when I send notes to follow up, you never want the person to feel obligated because that's negative. But it's more of a hey want to express my interest. I want to check in. I understand you're busy. If you have any updates, please let me know. There we go. Keep it, keep it short, right?

Speaker 1: 45:05

Um so, how long can I do that for? It goes into a month, it goes into a month and a half and I haven't heard.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Well, I mean, I guess my question is you know, let's go back, Jill, let's go back to our dating years, right? If we go on our first date and it takes you a month to call me back, why don't I go on a second date with you?

Speaker 1: 45:23

Yeah, I would agree, cause if, even having been in that position before, where I'm like waiting on finance to do something or I don't have an answer, I might proactively, without a promise, send a candidate. Really enjoyed meeting with you, still waiting on some information. I hope to be in touch with you soon. Just keep you warm. But again, not everybody was raised by our parents.

Speaker 2: 45:48

And I think and I think that's the big thing, I think you know you I will tell candidates this and if I'm even working on a search, I will get a bat for my clients the same point if they're delayed with their feedback. I will also be honest, because everybody needs to be honest with everybody and you know it's not uncommon for, let's say, someone takes a long time for feedback. It's like you know, hey, you can only say this in a few words, but it's like is this a role that you're still interested in now, knowing what you know? Yeah, right, and it's. There are different roles for different people at different stages of their career, and maybe it's a more transactional role and I'm okay, great. Maybe it's a place where I want to grow and crush it and thrive and really dig in and be treated well. How you're treated during the interview process gives you a pretty good sense of what it's going to be like when you're-.

Speaker 2: 46:37

What you're walking into, and I think it's to be really honest with yourself with that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:45

I had a situation personally years ago where I thought everything went great and then I just went radio silent and I talked to you know, like a mentor and asked him what he thought I should do, because he knew the CEO that I was interviewing with and he said follow up.

Speaker 1: 47:02

He's like that's strange, especially because he was the connector in. So I wrote the CEO an email that just said like hey, I understand priorities change and timelines changed and I wonder if you could give me any feedback on my interview Meaning I wrote it assuming that this was done right, this wasn't happening, but very gracious, no resentment, just saying like I understand priorities and desires change. If you could give me any feedback on my journey, you know, on my interviewing journey, that would help me in the future. I would be really appreciated. No sooner did I hit send than my cell phone rang with his name across and he was like I am so sorry. I thought we told you and basically they didn't have the budget, they shot high budget wasn't approved and it would have been, you know, me working for like a 75% pay cut which I wasn't interested in doing.

Speaker 1: 47:59

Anyway, they gave me fantastic feedback, which I understand legally is not what they can do. They just said here's what we thought you were great. They didn't give me any constructive criticism because, again, it was about a budget issue and that was it. But I got past that fear of it's okay that you didn't pick me.

Speaker 2: 48:18

Yeah, you know. Look, I would love, like my inbox gets jammed up. Fact, and the easiest way if you send me an email I don't know, maybe it's last week, right, if you send a follow-up again, hey, kicking this to the top of your inbox, there's guilt that kicks in. Jill, I will respond to that immediately, right, and we will be speaking the next day, and that's okay. Now, if you do that and the person then doesn't respond, it's like wait, is this a manager you'd want to work for? They're ignoring you.

Speaker 2: 48:47

You did share one thing and I strive to do this so much which is feedback, and I think we all owe it to each other and companies are just so afraid to your point with the legality, with feedback, and it's okay, because someone may be looking and maybe their profile was slightly off. Okay, maybe they need to know that. They're going to know it wasn't them, and I think it's to give them that answer. So when they walk away, they have the understanding of whether they could have done better, and sometimes it's not. It's just the reality of whether they could have done better and sometimes it's not. It's just, it's just the reality of what your profile is. And to share that feedback or someone maybe they did something that was uncharacteristically off. Share that. I just think it's a. I'm really big on that. It's more, more feedback.

Speaker 1: 49:41

What I would say, though, to everybody listening lower your expectations, because the legal department and HR department is going to say you can't give feedback. What I would say if anybody who's in the position of hiring give the positive feedback, then If you can't give the reason why you know what. You really weren't that strong in coding, and that was obvious, that you weren't able like. You can't say things like that. It's squishy. But then give feedback. That's like listen, you were an excellent presenter, you were great storyteller, you were likable. We're moving forward with another candidate again. You have to check with your legal department, you have to check with your hr what you can and can't say. But giving feedback, they say it's a gift.

Speaker 1: 50:24

It, it, it really is, and I think they're not going to, but you can ask for it.

Speaker 2: 50:30

Yeah, it's. No, it's yeah, I will say, though I also think it's to have empathy for the internal recruiters, because they are really overworked and they are really taxed, and I think it's to have empathy because their departments have often been cut to the bone. They are viewed as cost centers, not value adds to the organization, which is ironic, because talent is the key fuel for any company, and there was a large company that I worked with and my internal contact was the internal executive recruit consultant Fantastic, and we were having a holiday lunch at the end of the year and he told me how many searches he worked on. I think he filled 60 roles over the course of one year.

Speaker 2: 51:16

Jill, I don't even know how he could keep that straight. Right, that's insane. What is your KPI for your performance and what is your bonus based on? It's based upon how many people did we put in seats, fact, and a lot of what I do is much more strategic, and there's that artisan aspect. In a role like that, that person is not being. Those are not their KP, their KPIs, and it's really to understand who the person is and what their goal is, and I say their motivation, because they're doing what their remit is, and so I just think to keep that in mind is really important.

Speaker 1: 51:55

Yeah, christian, this has been so helpful. I love that you spend this time with me. I'm going to keep saying every six months that we have a touch base on what we're seeing out there For our listeners. I will put Christian's information and the Montgomery group in the show notes. Christian also said he was going to share a document for you the way to think about your day so I'll pop that in there too. Listen, who are you getting your support from? I would love to be your coach and help you through this process, so my information will be in the show notes. And until next time, I'm going to tell you to embrace the summer slowdown. It doesn't mean you're stopping, you're just using it differently to get ready for that September surge. Be intentional and always, always, always, be kind. Thanks for listening everybody.