In this episode with talk with the co-lead pastors of Forest City Church in Burnaby BC, Jordan and Amy Baker about their replanting journey. With so many religious spaces sitting empty in our rural, suburban and urban communities, replanting is something all leaders must be thinking about. While Jordan and Amy are very new into this process still, they have lots to offer in this interview and you don't want to miss out!
Also, please check out our website chocked full of free resources www.paocmultiply.com and if you want to get our Multiply Extra monthly updates please email Paul.fraser@paoc.org to get on the list!
In this episode with talk with the co-lead pastors of Forest City Church in Burnaby BC, Jordan and Amy Baker about their replanting journey. With so many religious spaces sitting empty in our rural, suburban and urban communities, replanting is something all leaders must be thinking about. While Jordan and Amy are very new into this process still, they have lots to offer in this interview and you don't want to miss out!
Also, please check out our website chocked full of free resources www.paocmultiply.com and if you want to get our Multiply Extra monthly updates please email Paul.fraser@paoc.org to get on the list!
Hi there. How are you today? I trust that you are doing well. Thanks so much for tuning in to the Multiply Network podcast. My name is Paul and I get the wonderful privilege of interviewing some fantastic leaders. And this month is no different. But before we get there, I do want to make some free resources available to you and what leader out there doesn't like free resourcing? We created a website to champion, train, and resource disciple makers and church multipliers. PAOCMultiply.com is where you'll find those resources. There's so many great videos, too many to list, but they're all free for you to do that. Look through them. Hopefully you'll find some that will be helpful for you in your ministry context. There's also - if you're interested in planting a church, specifically with our PAOC family - there's some initial steps that you can take right there on the website. Someone will get back to you and we could start you on your journey. We also have another resource we send out monthly called the Multiply Extra, and if you're interested in signing up for that, you'll be the first to find out new resources that are going live. Email Paul.Fraser@paoc.org, and we will make sure that you get on that monthly list. This month's interview are friends of mine, Jordan and Amy Baker. I've had the wonderful privilege of journeying with them the last year or so. They are in this replanting journey of Forest City Church. And in our interview today, we talk about their life and ministry, what replanting is like versus new starts. And some of the (maybe surprising) challenges that come along with replanting, specifically around a building. Every church planter would love to start off with a building, but then there's also some downsides. You have to take care of it, and there's maintenance. And then we talk about co pastoring and that seems to be something that just keeps coming up over and over and over again. And so we talk about how they co-pastor together, while learning in their life and leadership in this season. And the burning question everyone wants to know, are you doing a Christmas Day service? You won't find that out until the end of the podcast. They're wonderful people; have amazing things to say. And the interview is coming up right now. Thanks for jumping on the Multiply Network podcast today. So great to have you guys joining us. Great to be here. Thanks for having us, Paul. Thanks Paul. So, why don't you tell us a little bit about, you know, who you are as a family and then maybe your ministry journey as we kind of talk today about what it's like to do a replant. Let's just get to know who you are first. And so, Jordan, maybe I'll start with you. Sure. Yeah. We're Jordan and Amy Baker. We've been married ten years. Just celebrated our decade. And we celebrated that by deciding to plant a church in this last year. So we're church planters one year in.
And we have three children:seven, four and 1.5. So our life is full. We own a minivan, and we eat a lot of Cheerios. Honey nut or just regular? The regular have such a lower percentage of sugar. But the kids don't like it. So we're counting sugar. Nice. Well, I get it when they get a little hyper for sure. Amy, why don't you tell us a little about your ministry experience? You guys have been married for ten years. Have you been in ministry those whole ten? No, not the whole ten, but close to it. We were at our previous church for just around six and a half years and we had resigned in the spring of 2021. Just trusting the Lord's leading there and really one of those bittersweet goodbyes. We were excited for what was next and where God was leading us. But we also were so sad to say goodbye to a church community that we love dearly. And so in that season we were really - if you know us, specifically Jordan is a planner. And so moving into the unknown in so many ways was a new thing for us, new territory. And so the opportunity to replant a church in Burnaby, British Columbia -- I should say we were in Victoria on Vancouver Island -- and when we were approached with the opportunity to replant a church that had shut down during COVID in Burnaby. And to be honest with you, it wasn't necessarily something that jumped out at us right away. It certainly wasn't something that just hit on the nose that we were like, Oh, yes, God's calling us there for sure, you know? And so we took quite a lot of the time to really start to kind of just assess where we were ready. We definitely were not people that had just burning in our bones, so to speak, to plant a church. And, you know, the Lord, I think, did a very slow, steady work. And eventually we said yes to replanting this church. And so we went from Victoria, from a really large church with multiple campuses. We had been campus pastoring for a year before COVID hit and then kind of navigating through COVID for the last better part of a year and a half and coming to a church that had nobody in it. And so it was quite a journey for sure, to say the least. Well, and no -- but a building. And we'll probably talk a little bit about that because it has been quite the journey. I know there's lots of planters out there that are saying, man, to start with a building would be amazing. And it would be if there wasn't some of the headaches maybe that have come along the way with you guys. But obviously, young family and doing ministry, how do you keep it all balanced? What are some what are some things you do to keep your sanity?(Laughs) I don't know. If you find them, let us know because we're still going with trial and error at this point. Yeah, as Jordan said, we have three young kids that are very busy. Many people over the last season have so graciously asked us, you know, how's it going? And I just keep saying, You know, we're not bored. So we've got lots on the go, and I wouldn't say that we've got it figured out by any means. But I would also say our prayer life has never been deeper. Just with the intentionality of, you know, what is our priority and establishing, you know, firstly, what's our values as a family. And so we're still figuring that out in a lot of ways, but making sure our kids know that we're in this together and you know, we're the Bakers before we're pastors. And so that's our family -- that our family comes first and the church comes second. And not in a hierarchical way, but just that our kids know, you know, we're their parents before we're pastors. And so that's, I think, where we try really hard to make sure that that is a really healthy balance between service and also just, you know, us as a family. That's that it is a ministry. It's not who we are. So yeah, I would say that's maybe a little bit on the theory end of things. That's kind of how we try to ride it out. What would you say, Jord? Yeah, I think kids like routine and so we do some practical things like Pizza Night on Fridays. Yeah, but even like Sunday after church, we don't -- we just come home with our three kids because Sunday mornings are hectic and we're trying to connect with lots of people. So they probably feel like a little bit of a nuisance and sometimes they are. And so Sunday afternoons we go home. We have lunch together and we usually watch something on animals on the Disney Channel or like something about the circle of life. Or is there anything on God Tube you watch?(Laughter) Well, for some reason, we watch something about animals every Sunday afternoon. I don't know how that--- Like a nature documentary. It's nature documentaries. But our kids have now come to expect that. And that's just one way we connect with them, especially after a busy morning. But I think that the kids can rely or guarantee on some of those routines or those rhythms have been helpful for us in this season. Yeah. You have to you have to create some structures are the church will overtake. Especially church planting. We've been a part, my wife and I with our family, have been a part of a couple of church plants, and it's all encompassing for the family when you're really involved, that the kids have to really be on board. And so it's really important to make sure, Amy, like you said, that there's a sense of Okay, but yes, it's all encompassing, but we also have structure and priority. You guys, you mentioned before, maybe I'll throw this one over to you, Jordan. You planted a new campus and now you're replanting a church. What are the differences in a replant? And the reason why we're talking about this today, it's no secret that religious spaces, churches, have closed during COVID. Replanting actually could be a really significant strategy moving forward. Having these buildings in communities, ready to go, ready to have people move in. But you planted, you started from scratch with just a core group going. And now, here you are replanting, where you didn't have a core group, but you had a building. What were some of the differences? Yeah, I guess I should say, technically we went to the campus after about a year or so into it. So we didn't plant that, we adopted that as well. And then led there for a couple of years before we transitioned. But yeah, a replant was a new term to us and we never heard of it before. And it's sort of a combination, a hybrid, of between a revitalization of going into a church that's struggling or in decline and helping to revitalize that. And then obviously a church plant. It's probably like 70% church plant and like 30% revitalization, if I could give it a percentage. It certainly leans more to the church plant world in terms of like starting from scratch, marketing, creating some values, a name, building a launch team, working towards the launch. All of those, kind of, regular things that you've had within the church planting world. Those are certainly rhythms for us that we've spent time in. And certainly a lot of the mentors and the people we were connecting with were church planters. But there is also a lot of revitalization pieces to it because we did adopt a building, which we're certainly grateful for and will help us with momentum and longevity because we're not portable. We've done that season for a bit, but with the building comes its own issues and problems and realities. And especially when a church shuts down, it usually has years, sometimes decades of not health. And so there's a lot of deferred maintenance, there's a lot of deferred lots of things. And so we picked up a lot of those pieces of just some of the practical things around the building, some of the financial structures. There's a daycare that's operating in the building, which is really great, but also just another thing to manage. And so that was a big piece of that for us, was not just working towards launching a new community, but also trying to help the building be functional and creat a foundation for us moving forward. Yeah, instead of fundraising for like upfront cost, you actually spent a lot of time fundraising to repair buildings and parking lots and build ramps and fix doors. And that's obviously something that probably, Amy, you weren't thinking like, oh, let's fundraise for, for all this. You thought maybe let's fundraise for a new sound system and, you know, things that you think about in planting world. But instead you guys were having to decide, okay, if this is the money, what are we going to do with it? And so, maybe just kind of talk a little bit about that. What were some of the things you had to fundraise for and maybe some of the things you did for the building? Yeah. So we definitely, you know, just going back to the question you had us previously around the difference between, you know, being part of a church campus and then replanting a church. You know, there there's I'd say one of the biggest things is just the difference in, you know, when you're a part of something, when you're pastoring a campus and you're like, you know, a little bit with that campus, we were kind of revitalizing some of the team structures and stuff there, but we always kind of had like mom and dad to fall back on as far as the the main campus. And so there was lots of resource that was available to us as far as people that would just even come out for a season and help with that kind of thing. Or troubleshooting was a lot of - yeah, as you said - it was kind of the sound system that we, you know, the portable sound system or, you know, how are we going to do Christmas Eve? And so suddenly having to take on these issues without, you know, the backing and the support of a team, I would say was a huge component. And so part of that was definitely, you know, we had done the load-in-load-out of a portable campus. And then moving into having our own building, I think is what was afforded to us as a result of being in a portable campus is we really understood on, I would say, a new level having been in a portable space, just the blessing that a building is. And so we were really, really thankful. And for that, I think it helped us as much as there was so much that was just so unexpected around things that just kept coming up with building. I feel like it's like every renovation show that you've ever watched. It's always like, and then they pull this wall out and it turns out, you know, they're like a family of termites or whatever. So, here, we inherited some problems that were current, but also problems that had just been bandaided for a long time. And, of course, lots of those are bandaided because they're expensive. And so, you know, I give a lot of credit to Jordan. He definitely put on the general contractor hard hat in a big way. Just really -- I think one of the gifts that Jordan has that I think really helped us navigate replanting a church was just his ability to, you know, ask the questions, What do we need? And find the people to do it, either through connections or who does he know that knows a guy? And so, you know, lots of trial and error with a few things. We definitely ran into a few issues around some sketchy plumbers and some other things, but I think the most shocking part of this whole thing was - the money was a piece, but it was also definitely just the time that it would take to figure out, you know, nobody has yet to this point, you know, complemented the new drainage system we've put in. It's just stuff nobody sees that we've spent so much time on. And it's just all these things that it's like, you know, we want this building to outlast us, to outlast our time here. You know, we want to do this well and we want to do it right. Which, of course, to do it well and to do it right costs money. So, those pieces all working together, I think we said, you know -- I don't remember the exact estimate we gave-- but probably Jord, would you say it was one fourth of our time - moreso of your time - went to just like building upgrades and building maintenance? Yeah. I mean, there's rhythms, right? Sometimes problems arise and then you spend a week on that problem and then you might have calm for a month. But yeah, certainly rhythms. But certainly more time than we expected. It's one of those things that I think, again, is a blessing. But you don't realize how much, as a lead pastor, you're involved in building decisions, as co-leads. Like you're just sitting there going, Yeah, nobody's complimenting you on the drainage system or the parking lot or, you know, other things. But for it to outlast you, I love that, it takes a while. But it makes me think that there almost should be some sort of training for pastors, even at Bible College. Like, General Contracting 101, because at some point you're going to be in charge of some facility that you're going to need. But anyways, you guys have done a great job. I've been. I've seen it. It's just -- the paint outside and the-- You've just done a great job. So outside of the building, what other surprising challenges has there been in this replant that maybe you didn't see coming? And Jordan, maybe we'll start with you and then head over to Amy. Yeah. I think how long it takes to build something, to create momentum. Because we came here in August of 2021 and we launched services in September of 2022. So we took about a year. Some of that was to do with the things that we just talked about, with some building realities. But a lot of that was just also building a core launch team, trying to understand Metro Vancouver and Burnaby, and the needs, and just contextualizing a lot. But yeah, I thought for myself that we were going to show up -- and although we knew we didn't know anybody in Burnaby specifically -- that things would move quicker. But there certainly was a longer season at the beginning of just like, you know, we'd have a team meeting of 12 people. Or we'd do a prayer night and six people show up. Just things like that, and just start really doing some of that hard work. I think that how long it took for us to kind of get some momentum, maybe, was a surprise to me. Maybe no one told me that. Maybe that's just -- that's probably common, if I had talked to more church players before we agreed, probably they would tell me that. But I thought the momentum would happen quicker than it did. Yeah, yeah. As you talk with other planters, it does take a while to get, you know, a launch team together. But you add the building into it, and I think that's probably what stretched it maybe a little bit longer for you guys. Amy, anything else you'd like to add? Like, what was surprising about this replant journey? Oh, man, Paul, so many things. I think Jordan has articulated that part, just around around the time. But I also just think, you know, God being so in all of the details, in all of the pieces. And I think, you know, something that's surprising, but also a lesson that I really learned throughout this process is just what it means to wait on the Lord. And there's lots. We came with -- People kept saying to us, even from the beginning, one of the most daunting things was naming the church and just feeling, you know, Jordan and I both would admit we are not necessarily the most like visual arts, musical, like that level of creativity. Artsy, I would say. And so something like naming a place, I always feel like it comes from, you know, these creative people with this great vision of that, just thinking of those kinds of things. And so that in itself was intimidating to think, you know, we want to name this building something, this expression of the local church, something that's going to outlast us. And, you know, that felt like a really daunting task, that it wasn't just our thing that we were doing. And people kept saying to us, well, you know, your name is going to come out of your values. And we were like, okay, that's great but what our values. You know, just feeling so much like we were coming with such empty hands in so many ways. But sure enough, just in time, I'm being like, okay, God, could you just hurry up with, you know, whether that's the name or what are our values or where is our worship leader going to come from, or, you know, who's going to lead our kids program or all of those things. And God just continuously, you know, answering each one of those prayers. And obviously there is work going on and you're just tracking down leads and those doors that were closed. But ultimately God dropping, like Forest City Church, like such a cool story. And so it just really is incredible to see all of these needs we had and how God just provided. But it was very much in His timing, which is stressful at times. Yeah, for sure. If you had it. If he hadn't laid it all out with timelines, I'm gonna do this the here then you don't need faith at all. Just one of the things you
mentioned:church name change. You know, why did you feel the need to change it to Forest City Church from Central -- I think it was Central Community? Central Christian Assembly. Central Christian Assembly? Why was that important to you, to give it a new name change? Yeah, good question. So I think on a really basic level, it was just representing that it was a new thing happening here. Our church building is on the corner of Kingsway and Imperial, which is a major intersection in metro Vancouver. Kingsway is one of the main veins into the city, and so hundreds of thousands of cars drive past it here every single day. And representing something was changing. Something new was happening here. I think the name is one of the quickest ways to signal that change for sure. Obviously, there has to be something a lot deeper than just changing a name. I always just think of like a youth group that goes through like a new name change every like 6 to 8 months kind of thing. But that would be the simplest thing to say. It's just representing the new thing that was taking place here. Jordan, anything to add about the name change? Would you encourage replanters to do that? Yeah. I mean, usually you're replanting because a church has been in decline or hasn't been relevant with society for a season. Right? And so that was the case here. And not to mention that we had a couple of years of COVID, even before we stepped on the scene. So there hasn't really been much happening at this location or through this church for a long season. And so it was time to honor that legacy that was built and those individuals that helped build the foundation that we're on now. And we took a season to do that. But also to create a new path forward and to communicate a new vision forward. And with that, that includes a new name, and something too that we can gather ourselves around. Yeah. And of course there were some members who -- there wasn't many, but there were still some members from the previous church when it was functioning. Do you think the name change helped them with the leadership vision shift as well? Yeah. I think it helped them. I think it's a visual representation of what's happening, right? It is. It's a way for us to communicate that a new season is among us. And, also, new churches attract new people, new people of the faith and new people to church in general. And so I think that we also wanted to communicate that as well, because this is a new church. We have about maybe ten of those people that were part of what was before. But the vast majority of the people that are part of our church are new. And so we wanted to communicate that, that this was the reality. Brilliant. So you guys are co-pastors, co-lead pastors of the church, and that's no easy task with a young family. Never mind, it's just no easy task. When we were talking offline, I admitted that I think for my wife and I, just how we work together and how we work best together, we're not sure if we could do that. We've chatted about, could we ever co-lead together? And, you know, we do projects sometimes it's really clear we could not. But you guys somehow make this work. And I think it's growing, this model, where it's not just like, well, there's the pastor and then their spouse just, you know, just gets the name by virtue of the pastor. But you guys literally function like co-lead pastors. We've been doing coaching calls for some time and chatting through, and you really do decide as a couple on church related things. And so Amy, maybe I'll start with you. Any tips, any advice on how to do this well? Yeah. Well, I will start by saying some of this is aspirational more than it is actually lived experience, because there's lots of things that we're certainly-- as far as actually leading a church we're four-ish months into leading and co-leading a church togethe, and obviously we've had a planting season of about a year -- And I don't know if I have learned anything deeper than learning to work alongside Jordan in this season is a completely different ballgame than when we worked at our previous church. We were in two separate departments, and so there wasn't necessarily a lot of crossover in decision making that had to happen. And so it has absolutely been wonderful. I cannot imagine planting by myself by any means. I actually -- Kudos to those that their spouse is around, but not necessarily involved or they're single. Because just having somebody that you are able to discuss these things and continue to have conversations and you're both passionate about, it's something you're both thinking about. You know, there's something really beautiful about that. But it also means that some of those lines are really blurry about your life, and church planting can easily become your whole life and your hobbies and your everything. And so we, I think, on a couple of levels, before we jumped into this, we talked to numerous-- probably three couples, four couples -- and just heard their experiences of co-leading. And I think, as you said, you're right, Paul, there is couples more and more that are taking on a title of co-lead. And so we wanted to hear how did they do it? What did it look like for them? And knowing that we are our own individuals as well that are going-- it's going to look different for us, just like lead pastors that are just doing it on their own. Everybody's strengths and giftedness is going to look different. So for us, I think, for myself personally, one of the biggest factors was just the humility of knowing my limits and playing within it, especially as a female in ministry. We're really weighing out, you know, what is me feeling the need to prove myself that I should be doing that or I should do that too, or, you know, whatever I need to be in that meeting. And what was actually beneficial for our time, for the church. You know, is it really necessary for me to be meeting, just on a practical level, with the plumber? Like, do we both need to be in a meeting when we're talking about perimeter drains. And so, there is a piece of my ego that really had to die when it comes to every meeting. And our Constitution as it stands in the PAOC, you know, you can only have one lead pastor. And so there really was this moment where it was like, you know, on a spiritual level, yes, we're leading together. But on the books level, Jordan is the lead pastor. And we had a lot of conversation about that. But even just from the practical level of we have three small kids at home. I'm not in the office every day and it makes more sense for me to be home with the kids. And Jordan's skill set is that, that he's more analytical, he's more detail oriented. So he's going to be the one that's going to take on, you know, dealing with the budgets and the general contracting. All of those pieces he's much better at. So that makes sense. And so-- But honestly, Paul, it was hard on my ego to really - not step back- but really realize this in this season, part of my leading is leading out at home in a different way and being secure in that. And I think that'll be a constant wrestle that it'll creep up on me from time to time. But us really establishing it. And it's been a work in progress and I feel it'll probably continue to be a work in progress is just really being clear with our team on what are our specific roles and being conscientious not to swerve into the other's lanes with those things. Because we find it can be confusing for a team. It can be confusing for other people. Yes, we're leading together, but we lead differently. Very well said. Very well said. Jordan, how are you going to top that? That was excellent. Thanks, Amy. You just pick a good co-lead. That's my tip right there. Right? Yeah, I met Amy at school where she was on track to be a pastor, and so it was like Amy tagged along with me or vice versa. And then she's like, Oh, well I'll just do what you do. So we met at the stage, and fell in love, where we both had a desire to pastor a local church. And so I call myself a pastor's husband in different settings. Because it is very much true. But yeah, I think just having that support because the weight of leadership is real, especially when you're a senior leader. Even just I think that idea of having collaborative teams or having that team approach to leadership is becoming more popular, because I think it's just a lot of weight for one person to hold. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who planted here in Vancouver, and there's three of them that lead together. And he was commenting, like it was just myself, I don't know if we would have got here, because there are seasons that one of us had to hold the other one up and that the three of us have carried the weight together. And I think it would be the same for our journey. I don't know where I would be at if I didn't have Amy in those days that you want to quit or those days that you just feel like this is too much or this isn't worth it, or this is another setback upon another setback. And so I think that support has been really good in this season especially, just to have someone that helps process that. And someone just to carry some of this weight sometimes, when you feel like it's just too much to carry. I think of any tips, is having a lot of clarity around how you function. And so we theorized about that a lot. We had four months of transition before, when we left our old employment before we started here. And a lot of like we spent a lot of time in those evenings just talking about how do we lead together. And so we had a lot of theories, and then we had a lot of experience this last year. And so that's a living document that we continually are tweaking. But we want clarity with that, with our board. We want clarity with that, with our team. And so we communicate about that often, because we also know it's a model that maybe not a lot of people are familiar with. But we want to be clear about it with our team. So we have a lot of conversation about that in terms of what roles do we play, what do -- Sometimes my personality, I just step in or I take over things that maybe that shouldn't. And what things we're uniquely gifted at that we should put our energies to. And how do we communicate about this? Just different things like that that we've tried to work out. Yeah, clarity is really important. What I've noticed about you guys is you're not competitive with one another. You actually honor and you complement each other very well. And I think that helps. But it's not clearly defined, then it's just really easy to step into each other's lanes. And you know, that just doesn't -- That feels at times, maybe, disrespectful. So, obviously you're still learning the journey. But from what I can tell you seem to be okay. And most of our coaching calls, you're sitting next to one another, so that's usually good. Amy, have another thought? Yeah, I was just going to add the other piece of this is I would say self-awareness is critical. Yeah, Jordan and I both see our own counselors, especially in this season that we just have this person-- Like, I feel like I come in and I'm like, Why am I like this? You know. And so I would just say on a really practical level of leadership in general, but especially working as a couple, just the more I understand my blindspots or my responses or all of those things, I think it's beneficial both to our leadership and to our marriage of just learning, you know, the things that, as Jordan kind of alluded to there, where he might jump in and on my personality, more might pull back. And then I find myself feeling resentful about things or whatever. And so for us to really again recognize that and continuously having conversations and sharing our, you know, what we're what we're learning and what we're growing in, I think has been incredibly helpful and insightful to how we lead together. And so I would -- Yeah, I just recommend to anybody in general, but especially in leadership, having a counselor that you're working through your things with. Because sometimes you don't even realize the, you know, the way you're leaning and where that's taking you. You know, you're just driving a little bit into the ditch and you don't even know. So, yeah, it's been incredibly helpful. Very good. Very good. Hey, what are some things that the Lord's teaching you in this season of replanting...maybe just even about like just life and then just in leadership? So maybe Jordan, we'll start with you. Life and leadership. What are some things that you feel like the Lord's teaching you in this replanting season? Yeah. So we launched in September and we've been on this church planting trek for just over a year, and so we've been invited to speak at these different things around church planting (laughs), because we are, like, three or four months in. And so apparently that's given us-- Lots of credibility.(laughs) Yeah, lots of credibility, right? So, we've been asked this question a couple of times. And I think the thing that I, especially in this season, even maybe in the last couple of months, I keep coming back to it's around what culture is. And culture is not as much as what you create, it's what you allow. Culture is not as much as what you create, it's what you allow. And I just think, like, through-- Just even, like this past year of slowly transitioning things, but even just probably now, finally transitioning some of those final things that we feel like, you know, we could allow this, or we could allow this behavior, or if somebody wants to do this thing or-- You know, there's lots of things that we could allow. And there's sometimes when I look at things that are creating toxicity, or they're just creating the culture that we're not trying to create, it's often because it's not something we've created, it's something that we've allowed. And that's something that we haven't addressed or something that we haven't had some follow up conversations with. And so I'm just reminded about that, of the challenge of leadership. Certainly we're creating culture. We're seeing that. But we also learned that early that, especially in these beginning days of our community, and the values that we're creating, the trajectory we're creating right now is really important. And so if we allow certain behaviors to begin here, they will be a lot harder to correct a year down the road. And so, we're just trying to be really intentional with having a community that really represents the values that are close and near to us. And so that's-- just having a lot of conversations around the things we allow and things that we sometimes want to avoid because they're hard, but knowing in the long run it will create the community that we are looking for it. Yeah. Great thought. Excellent. Amy, over to you. Yeah. You know, another thing that I would say in lots of ways I don't have this figured out, but I think I've very much figured out it's important. The Lord has just really continued to impress upon me the value of rest. And I think we actually had a conversation with you at one point. You know, do we know any church planters who are currently or have recently planted a church who observe a Sabbath? And I think the conversation with you was like, there might be one guy I know.(Laughter) And so, that kind of, I think almost became-- You said we're not competitive, and Jordan is certainly the more competitive one of the two of us -- But I was like, okay, well, we're going to do it. And so we set out this year to observe a Sabbath. And I can say, officially, that it turns out that the practice of rest is very much a discipline. Just like fasting, or going to the gym, or-- You know, it is intentional in a way that I am very surprised about. But I'm also learning so much about the benefit of rest and, you know, why that is commanded. And I just really see that being a key to my own, you know, my physical health, my mental health, my connection with my family and my marriage. And I've really just learned this last year, I am not good at resting. And I'm not at all saying that in a way that's like, you know, a badge of honor of like, well, I'm just such a busy person, you know. But really, like, it's crazy how much satisfaction and self-worth comes from productivity. And really sussing that out and pulling out and realizing like, oh, man, to even just delight for a day feels-- It's actually really hard. But I really am seeing more and more what a benefit it is. And so, I think it's become a conviction in a way that it wasn't before, just in the season that we are in. And beginning almost, I think, only now it's becoming something I'm beginning to look forward to. Whereas there was, for a while I just felt really stressed out by a Sabbath, which sounds so-- It was just, like, What am I going to even do that day? I can't do the laundry and I can't finish that project. And, you know, and so I think it's becoming or, you know, we're having dialog with our kids. It's worked out really well this year that the kids are in school and our daycare provider for our littlest has actually switched her daycare day to Fridays, and that's our Sabbath day. And we actually have no children that day. So it's actually been a really fun couple of months of actually having a day of rest, not a day with kids home. And so I think we are beginning to delight in that more and more. So, it's a work in progress, but I think God is really teaching me a lot through it. Amazing. Great thought. Really good. And it's true. You get you get so busy six, seven days a week in church plant world and replant world, or just basic ministry world. And you have to fight. You have to fight for that time to rest. Well, I saved the last question because this is the question that all the podcast listeners, especially the pastors out there, want to know. And I didn't prep you with this question, so you have no idea what's coming up. So, are you doing a Christmas Day service? Because that is such a debate right now. Should you do Christmas Eve? Should you do Christmas Day? Are you guys doing New Year's Day? Are you guys doing the big three? Are you doing two out of the three? One out of the three? What do you guys decide and why? Yeah, I remember being on staff and Christmas Day service was coming up - several years ago- and we pushed hard on our lead pastor to cancel it. And he didn't.(Laughter) So, I think the next one he did. Yeah. But now we're in that position. And yeah, we're not doing a Christmas Day service. We're doing a Christmas Eve one. We have a small team. I know of another church that's doing an at-home experience. I think that's a really good idea. And I think if we had the bandwidth and a larger production team, we'd probably would do something like that. I think that's a really good idea. But we are doing a January 1st service. So two out of three? Yeah. We just felt like canceling one Sunday was--. Cancelling two, we just thought we couldn't do it that way. It is too much. So we decided to January 1st. But we're doing like a Three-for-three, so some of our young communicators can speak on that Sunday. I'm not sure what's going to look like after New Year's, that morning, but we've committed to it and hopefully we'll end the year different than we started--. I don't know. So we'll see what happens. I think the next time that this happens, I heard someone say -- Because there's been pastors lamenting about, that I've chatted with since even the fall, about this idea of like Christmas Day, it's Sunday, and it's morning. What do we do? And do you do an at-home experience, whatever, on and on. And then someone looked it up and said, this doesn't happen again till 2033. So with the leap year, we missed it. And so it's like a 13 year - or 11 year, whatever - thing until this happens again. I remember growing up, my dad was the senior pastor. Christmas Eve service, Christmas Day service, New Year's Eve prayer, New Year's Day. I mean, if it was a Sunday, it was --- But it's probably good wisdom for those church planters out there. Like, I talked with one. They don't have access to their building. They rent. They rent a theater. It's not available Christmas Day, lots of people. So they're having to do adjustments. But I was just curious to see what you guys had decided. Christmas Eve is just such a big production in the church world. I think it's the biggest event the church does of the year. I think more people in our culture and our context are open to coming to Christmas Eve than anything else. So I just feel if you're going to put your eggs in a basket, you should put them all in that basket. And yeah, I don't think there's a long line of people that are wanting to come the Christmas Day service.(Laughter) Well, we'll find out, won't we? The faithful, the real Christians will show up. Paul, I am curious, what has been-- You've asked this question, probably, to more church leaders Amy and I have. What has been the percentage of the people that are going to do one, or two, or three out of the three? Yeah, I would say, probably-- There's nobody-- Unless you're a church plant who doesn't have access to a building, you're probably doing two out of the three. You know, Christmas Eve for sure. And then one of them. What you're doing. I think some are opting for Christmas Day and then taking New Year's Day off. Just, I think, because they want to just give people an opportunity to give one more time. I think that's kind of the thinking. But I don't know. Any Christmas plans? Amy, you heading anywhere? You guys sticking it around? You got people coming to you?(Laughter) Yeah, just me. I'm heading out.(Laughter) Well, you're so really committed to Sabbath. You're like, I'm out. Yeah.(Laughter) Goodbye. I am celebrating the birth of the Savior. By myself. In a lowly stable, all by myself. Yeah. So we are-- My parents are graciously coming over from the island, and my family. So they'll be over with us, which is mostly a trick so that they can watch our children during the Christmas Eve service. So that's a real win for us. So we're sticking around the lower mainland. And the cool part is, you know, we have a young team for the most part - Lots of young adults, lots that are university students. And some of those students are - lots of them, actually - are international students. So, we are really excited that -- We love community, we love having people in our home. And so this Christmas we get to host a few of those students in our home for Christmas dinner and just, yeah, be a part of that community that we, I think, is one of our values. So we're really excited and looking forward to that. Yeah. Amazing. You guys - just doing such a great job. Loved journeying with you. Loved continuing to journey with you guys. This is a great story that's unfolding for our fellowship and -- but just for Burnaby, just to have another healthy church here that's going to, you know, be a light in community. Thanks for jumping on. I know it's a busy Christmas season, so thanks for taking time to be on the podcast today. Thank you so much, Paul.