(Intro music) Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network. So glad you've tuned in today. I know you're going to be encouraged and inspired as we talk about how do we, as churches and leaders, best support newcomers to Canada? I know you're going to learn a lot from this interview and it'll be coming up in just a few moments. But I wanted to remind you that we also have another resource, our PAOCMultiply.com website that has many, many videos on all kinds of topics that are resources for you as leaders, for you as churches. They're free to use and we'd love for you to take advantage of them. PAOCMultiply.com. We also have on that same website - if you're interested in planting a church - some easy first steps to get you on the church planting journey. We have a two minute quiz that you need to take that will help us help you get on the right path for church multiplication. So make sure you check out that website if you have a few moments and hopefully you'll find something that will encourage you and support you in all your leadership activities. All right. Our guest this time is Charles Hermelink. He works for PAOC in the Mission Canada Department. He's the Cultural Language Guiding Group leader. He helps oversee Neighbours and Newcomers Network. He's working with Mission Canada Workers as the Onboarding Coordinator and Development Specialist. And in this podcast, we talk about newcomers to Canada, how churches need to respond. He said that there's well over 450,000 newcomers to Canada, and they're not just landing in Vancouver, Toronto. They're finding their way to smaller centers, and many of them upwards of 30% are already coming Christian. And so they're showing up in our churches. So how do we best respond and how do we best support them? And we talk about one big
thought:to not be accidentally multicultural, but being intentionally intercultural. So we talk about cross-cultural intelligence and he lays out so many great resources. Get out your notepad because it's going to be a great interview and it's coming up right now. Hi Charles, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Paul. Thanks for asking me to come on. Oh, so great that you're able to take some time for us on a really important topic today. But before we get into that, which ties to the topic, tell us a little bit about your role in Mission Canada and some of the things you're responsible for and maybe how you can help churches. Yeah. About a year and a half ago came back to Mission Canada on a full time basis. My role is like many, is a bit of a hybrid of three primary things there. One is cultural language guiding group coordinator. So Mission Canada has guiding groups for all of our various priorities and those are made up of actually district and pastoral leaders, ministry leaders, from all across the country. So mine is cultural language groups. Kind of a subset of that is what we call Neighbours and Newcomers Network, which is really sort of the RAN division. It's not as aggressive, you know, as somebody who is placed in a restricted access country, but it is for workers, especially among Muslims, but can be among other cultural groups here in Canada that need a bit more of a protected status. Because being labeled a missionary on the PAOC website would be problematic for them. So there's that. And then there's I'm also the onboarding coordinator. And onboarding for us is a little bit different than most of HR. Usually onboarding is, hey, we're going to hire you and here's your training and orientation. So, like when I was a missionary and before we went overseas, and same with Mission Canada, somebody comes to us and they say, hey, I'm feeling call of God and I want to do this. And we affirm that. Well, there can be a process from months to a year and a half, where somebody is onboarding. It's all the prep prior to deployment, which includes their fundraising - Which relates to the third area, which is I'm the development specialist, so the fundraising trainer and coach, although I very much dislike the term fundraising because the emphasis is in the wrong place. Right? I prefer partnership development. There you go. Which is really what it is. Boy, that sounds like a big job. And of course, Mission Canada for PAOC has both the guiding group side but also the agency side. The guiding group works with, you know, partners right across Canada trying to figure things out and reaching the missional gaps in Canada and then the agencies actually sending the workers and getting them ready. And so that's, incase some of you were wondering what Mission Canada does for PAOC. Charles has got his fingerprints in everything. Sounds like. One of the things -- Not everything, thankfully.(Laughter) Yeah, that's true, not everything. One of the things that -- from our last podcast you remarked about newcomers to Canada and we're going to talk quite a bit about that and how churches can prepare, respond, be proactive. It's a wonderful opportunity that God is bringing the world to Canada. But why don't you tell us a little bit about some of the things before we get there, some of the things you're noticing about newcomers to Canada and and how that may or may not have an impact on churches? Yeah, like, you know, I think anybody who's been watching any, you know, national news, reading national news, following anything, you know, it pops up so often, you know, annually here. You know, we'll talk about Canada, you know, and Toronto and other major urban centers nationwide as being the most multicultural in the world. You know, we kind of know that. Here's what here's what you don't hear. Well, this last year, they will have talked about it was the were figure was roughly 450,000 newcomers. So almost a half a million. Actually, the rate is almost double that because they are not counting all of the categories. And I asked somebody why that was, and they said, because the government doesn't want us to know. They don't, because people are getting upset about it. Right? But the implications
of this are:every locale, even out beyond suburbia, you know, into smaller burbs everywhere it is affected. We're growing in multicultural dynamics and that affects congregations both internally and externally. Internally, because Christians - it's still around 30 to 35% of all newcomers to Canada are Christians. And so they're landing in our churches and they're coming out of their Christian cultural context. And so that's affecting congregations internally. And then there's the external with, well, they're landing in our community and how are we as churches engaging them? And that's what we want to talk about today, because this is not a new reality. But I know for some rural centers, maybe some smaller cities, this is in their churches. This is really starting to show up. So I want you to talk with us a little bit today. And I know you're gonna talk a little bit about your background and somehow and then how that all plays into your current role. But you wrote in an email to me about being not accidentally multicultural but being intentionally intercultural. So talk to us about this cultural competence and how this all plays together. Because I think there's a lot of pastors out there scratching their heads going, How do we do this better? Charles has all the answers! I know they are too! Because they're calling me, they're emailing me, they're getting referred to me, you know, and to Mission Canada and saying, uh-oh, this is a new reality, you know, kind of to your last question. Post COVID, it's a fascinating period of time, because it's as if there was pent up demand. People couldn't go to church. People didn't want to go to church. People went online. They're searching. Well, that includes all the newcomers that are here and arriving or people that through the pandemic, this has stirred, this made them question. And so they're asking about, you know, the big questions of life. Right? And so they're online. Well, when we sort of reopened end of last year, this first early this year, you know, I have more churches contacting me saying, Wow, my congregation now is not the same as it was before. They're talking literally and figuratively. Literally, you know, lots of people changed. I have all these newcomers and newcomers who are newcomers to Canada as well. And so it's entirely changed the dynamic. I was at a section meeting a couple of weeks ago and this pastor who I've known for years, actually said to me, What do I do with these Christians who've shown up from these other countries? And they're making demands of me, you know. And he says, I wasn't trained for this, you know. So I feel that for pastors, you know, on that on that level. So, yeah, you asked me about my background and why it why is it I'm passionate about this? Probably because God called me. Yeah, this is why. Otherwise I'd be off doing something else. So I was trained mission in missions academically and practically outside of Canada. So my training was very, very oriented in sociology, anthropology, intercultural communication, contextualization, without syncretism, language and culture learning not as a monocultural pastor at all. Now, I've been a pastor, I've been a Staff Pastor and I've been a Lead Pastor. And I always feel that I wasn't trained for this, right? Kind of a little bit of that feeling, but trained for our multicultural world today. So like I said, I really feel for pastors who are thrown into this increasingly multicultural dynamics within their congregation and outside in their communities. And so I you know, I'm a I'm a resource guy. I'm always looking at what's available to help all of us. So I wanted to mention two of those really quick. One is a book- and really anything written by David Livermore on CQ, on Cultural Intelligence. You know, years ago we would hear about IQ and then we started hearing about EQ, with emotional intelligence. Now we're hearing about CQ, which is cultural intelligence. Really, it's about cross-cultural intelligence. Do I have enough breadth of mind and spirit to - and experience too - to communicate cross culturally with somebody and be understood and understand them well. So he's got a book from just a few years ago called The Cultural Intelligence Difference. Now, he's got lots of books, but there there is one that is really good. Now, Livermore is in the U.S. and he is writing - and it doesn't come out strongly, but Livermore is actually a christian. But he has gone into the very business world and that. But his stuff is thoroughly accessible and great for us. Another one which is really helpful to pastors - And I tell pastors this, I recommend this book to every pastor that I'm talking to, because I says it'll change your preaching. It'll change your communication within your community, your congregation and outside. It's called Effective Cross-Cultural Evangelism. By IVP, you know, InterVarsity and just a few, couple of years ago - by Bud Simon and Jay Moon - and they're giving us, like in one small volume, almost a missions degree. Because I know, like we're, as pastors, we don't have time to go back to get a degree. Right. I just need some things that are going to help me understand. And so most of us in our Canadian context are coming out of the truth and guilt cultural worldview. And so we tend to proclaim the gospel in a truth and guilt worldview. However, as our congregation and as our community outside the church is increasingly multicultural, our style of communicating the gospel is missing the mark. And it's like, why am I communicating and they're not responding? Well, the gospel - this is a beautiful thing - the gospel communicates in all of the worldviews existent in the world. It's just that we've been programed by our culture to see it and communicate in one way. So this book, they're going to help us understand, well, how do I speak to somebody who's coming out of a fear and power worldview, or how do I speak to somebody who's coming out of honor and shame? I love this. They talk about the emergent worldview today, which is millennials and younger. So this is our younger generations and it is a indifferent worldview. And also about issues - I and group, on group identity. I'm bonded to this group over this issue. And I want to be active in this particular area. So it makes me think of Greta Thunberg, who I just saw on the news last night, you know, some post about Greta Thunberg graduating from high school. You know, she's a great example of this, right? Of people who would be younger and indifferent to a spiritual worldview because it's not relevant to them. They don't perceive the world that way. Rather, they would say, why would I care about a spiritual worldview which may or may not exist when the world, to her, is burning, you know, and it's all going to fall right down around our ears. Now, whether you agree with her or not is indifferent. It's how do you communicate with people in that mental frame of reference. Right. So this is kind of where I'm coming from. These are resources that are that I try to create here. I'm all about the Church - big C, which boils down to means the local congregation, the local pastoral leadership team. Being healthy, being all that God is intended to be. And so I looked at a lot of, read totally into all the materials on, you know, church revitalization when I was at my church. Right. And, you know, I often heard the theme Healthy Things Grow, right? So you guys have probably talked a lot about that. Right? So, you know, here is to the question you asked specifically, are we growing unintentionally multicultural, which I give credit to David Wells for that. David Wells has probably been talking that for 20 years. Back when I was on staff at KRT, Kennedy Road Tabernacle in Brampton, you know, over 20 years ago, we saw that, we watched this happen in the almost ten years that I was there. We went from a median age, post 50, white congregation to a very multicultural. Now, I was recently back there this last year. Wow. It's just, you know, multiculturalism on steroids, right? But this is not the goal. This is -- multiculturalism is only a descriptive of the dynamic that is already, I see. I perceive. Rather are we aspiring to the always greater spiritual Spirit-led biblical goal of being intentionally intercultural? Now that's a different animal entirely. So yeah. So explain that, why that's maybe a better way to look at this. So the healthiest --- Here's my prime, the big idea as we would say did preaching, right, the prime premise here -- The healthiest and most growing churches are those who are intentionally engaging. They're reaching newcomers to Canada in their area. Hey, that's my central idea. What I want, if you takeaway anything else from this conversation, that's what I want people to take away. It is to my advantage for me, as a local church pastor, for my church to be healthy, my church to be growing, my church to have impact locally. Because it's relative to what's happening in the nation. And it's where the nation is going. Our rates of immigration just continue to increase. Ed Stetzer and Jerry Rankin wrote a book back in 2010 called Spiritual Warfare and Missions.
In the dedication, it says:they have discovered the key to spiritual vitality and local impact is a heart for God's kingdom work to the ends of the earth. Now, that's a fascinating quote to me, and we need to unpack a little bit right here.
And my point would be this:Jesus says - You know, we as Pentecostals love
the quote:When the Spirit's power comes upon us, we will be his witnesses in Jerusalem. That's where we live, among people who are like us. And in all of Judea and Samaria. Now, that's in our region. But it's also the cultural difference among people, both like us and not like us. Samaritans are not like the Jews. And to the ends of the earth. So we as a Movement, we formed as a Movement because - and we've been sending missionaries for a hundred years right to the end of the earth. Our current challenge is not just with our Jerusalems and our Judaians, but we're really with our Samaritans, the people who are increasingly the ends of the earth who come and they moved into our neighborhoods and they live here among us, but they're not like us. Right? So this dynamic - reaching newcomers - I see is a key to revitalization and church growth. And I saw it. Right? So back to your question. How do we do this well as a local church? Well, a summary list really, really quick is ESL - English as a Second Language, light level, conversation circles. So I have never been trained in ESL, but I have started ESL at three different churches and maybe inspired more across the country as I talk about this. It's household setup and housing issues, jobs, job pre- and job hunting skills, you know, grocery shopping, navigating our medical system, our school system, even navigating government paperwork. There's an endless amount of ways in which we can engage and literally help people. But even more internally, we have to move beyond. Here would be a difference between unintentional multiculturalism or maybe first stages of intentional multiculturalism. We have to move beyond what might be perceived as - We could call it tokenism. Now, that's a little bit of a painful term, right? And assimilation. We don't want to be guilty of either of those. But sometimes if we're just like, wow, if I, you know, maybe we're thinking in the back of my head, if I have this person on the stage or on the board or in the staff or something, well now I'm having some visible diversity, right? And that's not bad, But that's not the end goal. That's only a step toward the goal. And so really, what we're talking about is an intentional integration. Cultural integration is not just assimilating them, not just having them visible minorities come in and be like us, but rather for them to come in and change us. And this is where it gets uncomfortable. That's a great point, though. Like that is a great point. We forget to position ourselves as learners here. If we're not learners, we're making mistakes. So we need to celebrate culture, Right? We're not celebrating just our culture, our Canadian culture. We're celebrating everyone's culture. Because all cultures come under the kingdom and under the gospel. All cultures need to change to become more like a heavenly culture. And so we want to integrate cultural forms into worship, cultural forms, into thought and processes, cross-cultural theological interpretations, not just our own. So we're changed in the process and we end up looking more like Revelation
5:9 and 7:9 and we end up looking like what heaven is going to look at, right? Yeah. Now, here's the thing. I love this. The world stands up and take notice of us when we reach beyond ourselves and bless those in need outside our current congregation. So as William Temple said 150 years ago, the church exists primarily for the sake of those who are still outside of it. It is a mistake to suppose that God is only or even chiefly concerned with religion. And that's really the truth here. So preaching to the choir, perhaps for your listeners, Paul. You know, Matthew 5, you know - We're the light and we're the salt, right? In the same way, let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your father in heaven. That's got to be seen outside because otherwise they're not seeing what's happening inside the church. Ephesians 2, you know, we emphasize Ephesians
2:8-9, but we forget verse ten, we are God's handiwork created in Christ years to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Right. First, Peter, Chapter 2. You know, I'm urging you on one hand, Holiness, to abstain from the desires of the flesh which wage war against your soul but - here - conduct yourselves in such a way to honor with such honor among the Gentiles that they would slander you as evil deals, that though they would slander you, they may see your good deeds and glorify your God on the day that He visits us. So the question really before us is, is our church being ignored by the world because we're only focused on the well-being of our own members? Or are we focused on internal issues only? Are we only intentionally ministering to those already ministered to and not those who are least reached and most vulnerable in our own neighborhoods? So are we simply reflecting the world around us with either convenient blindness to the needs of almost a million newcomers arriving annually and some literally who are almost starving on our campuses, international students and in our community. Literally. Or worse, are we reflecting the prejudicial attitudes of the world against newcomers to Canada, most of which there are not, they are lies, they're not truths that back up the prejudices that are there. So when I talk about these things, sometimes, you know, I'm almost on the edge of prophetic and really in the realm of apostolic, calling the church into the harvest fields that Jesus looked upon. Jesus wept over. Jesus commanded us to pray for, and then immediately sent his disciples into the very ripe harvest field. So Jesus says, as the Father sends me, so I'm sending you. Is there any other mistakes or landmines that we can watch out for to make sure that we're doing intentional intercultural well? Well those would be them - convenient blindness, comfortable mediocrity, reaching business as usual. And Jesus and the Spirit are calling us out of that apathy. So what should churches be doing and how can we ensure they're doing it well? You asked me that question, right? Well, I love this. I remember this right from one of the revitalization guys, and he was saying, Get up and do something. Anything. Stop thinking about it and do it. It is one. Rallying the troops, Share the vision, call them forward, equip them and release them. That's what we're here for as leaders, right? Go out and fail. Learn something, retool, try it again. At our PAOC staff chapel a couple of months ago, Tim Woodcock was asked to come and speak. Here's a Canadian. He's now a Glad Tidings in Burlington. And he was, for a couple of decades, in ministry in the United States. And he was asked as he's come back, you know what's the difference and lay the finger on the difference between Americans and Canadians. And I know that the comparison alone makes many Canadians start to bristle. You know, we got our back up over this. But we're just talking about cultural differences that we perceive. And I think this is valuable to us. One is Americans are not afraid to fail. Go out, do something, fail, learn, retool, do it again, you know, and try again. Canadians, we're afraid to offend. And that lends us toward are we afraid of failure? And so we don't put ourselves out there socially in a conversation or organizationally. So we don't. But we're right back to if there's no risk, there's no reward. And so the irony to me is that as Canadians, the Church, not the government, but the Church, we offend exactly because we're not doing enough to throw open our arms and our doors and our buildings and our bank accounts. And even more than that, Our time and our hearts to newcomers, right? So to ensure we're doing this, well, what do we do? We risk, we vision cast. We lead in new ways. Then our congregation is going to be healthy. They're going to be outwardly focused, grow. I saw this at my 100 year old church in Toronto. That only ESL was the only thing I found that actually brought newcomers in. We saw people transition from ESL classes in mid-week to church on Sunday. Just, it was a natural, wasn't even that intentional on our part you know they naturally. Salvations. Joy and excitement in the church growth, before Covid shut it all down. I know I got you connected with my friend just out east there and you're able to chat with him and he's, he's been, you know, saying to me, you know, this is one of the most fruitful things we do is ESL or a Bible study for those that have moved to his community that are just looking for relationship. Not Christians, but just looking for relationship, other people that they can share language with. It's a beautiful thing. And for us, I like how you said that, maybe we're offending culture more by not throwing open our arms and our wallets and our schedules and you know. That was a really, really great thought. We have -- I spend a lot of time with new church plants, you know, either pre-launch up to 3 to 5 years, somewhere in there. They're scrambling to find people on Sundays to help, small groups on Wednesdays. So when, you know, like they're the solo pastor. And so, you know, there's other solo pastors out there that don't have staff, don't have someone to oversee this, and they are already taxed. They don't have a lot of extra time or money. What are some what things that you could encourage them with that would just be like, yeah, here's something that you can do or here's some thoughts for you to consider. You're a solo pastor, rural church plant, maybe smaller city, whatever. What can they do that would produce some fruit? Help them move their church in the right direction? Yeah. Yeah. Great question. Really, what we're looking for -- we're not looking for pastors to lead ESL programs, right? We're looking for pastors to be instigators, right? To be catalysts. You know, and I'm not looking for pastors, you know, to do more. In fact, we did ours on Wednesday nights, and I ran the Wednesday night Bible study. And I you know, I had this core group. It would be anywhere from 6 to 15 people. And I actually said to them, I would rather you didn't come to my mid-week Bible study. I would rather you go volunteer in the ESL, which we started on the same night at the same time. And they ran - they had the big venue in the church building, you know, downstairs. And it was three times as big as my class. And I did. I had people leave and go do that. And that made me joyful as a pastor. So what's the point? You have resources in your church called your members, right? Who actually, many of them are passionate about this. They're experienced. So we've just launched this at my church that I've been going to for a year and a half to it now. And, you know, I say my church - I'm just a member. I'm not on staff. I don't have any official positions, none of those sort of things. I'm just a life group leader who is passionate about this area. We have more people who actually are already certified in ESL. I have a guy who's a certified translator, certified job coach for cross-cultural things, you know, and people have past experience. And then I have people coming out of the woodwork who are saying, well, these are my language backgrounds and I'm willing to help anybody who shows up. So we've got half a dozen languages skills all represented. You know, it's it's fabulous. And they're doing it. I'm just celebrating them. They're the ones running it. So here's a practical way. I love this. I noticed this on Sunday. So our church uses a little QR code on the back of the seat and they have it on the slides to sort of register because everything is digital and not analog and written, you know, nowadays. Well, they've changed that attendance form. It actually now asks everybody every Sunday, do you have other languages, Do you have other language skills? Would you like to be involved in this ministry? Yeah, they're actually serving every single week. It's a great idea. Great idea. They use Wufoo! I didn't even know what Wufoo was.(Laughter) Now you're aging yourself, Charles. And it populates this form and it downloads through a Google spreadsheet. We all access it, right? You know, and now I got them signed up to Meet Up. And so now we have people from Meet Up, which is an app and a website, so we're broadcasting it to our greater area. We have people driving from other cities, right? Are saying, I just want to come and connect with people and speak and talk. And fellowship. Because, you know, Paul, you touched on it a moment ago. A lot of newcomers are really lonely. They're isolated. Right? Totally. And, you know, it used to be said three months to six months to reach a newcomer. Now it's less than 90 days to reach a newcomer before they get integrated into their home cultural group here in Canada. Well, if you're talking about somebody who's from a different worldview, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, you know, whatever, they can integrate into that community. We have lost our prime window for reaching them. Missions has come home to our local churches and we really are
Acts 1:2 right now in our local church. The Spirit is given to us to be our witness to these people and to embrace them because the uttermost parts of the earth come home. So you asked about resources. So I have a vision and resource document that I'm always working on. It's a Kickstarter. It's going to get you going. It's called filoxenía, which is actually the Greek word for hospitality. I love it because it's this mash up of stranger and love. Love, you know, Philadelphia, you know, brotherly love, philos here. I'll provide that to you, Paul, and you can attach it or provide a link to it in your show notes. Because it then goes through - it's philosophy and vision - but it's also, the last several pages, are all resources. Here's how to think about your website. You know, one of the easiest things that are not going to cost the church anything to do is actually add -- it doesn't have to be visible-- add some languages in the the metadata of your website so that when somebody in Spanish, somebody in an in Tagalog or Urdu or Ukrainian is looking, your church now shows up in the web results because you've got that language on your website. Okay. You know easy, easy to do. It's got people on there who are doing fantastic things. It's got worship ideas, ministry ideas, ESL resource, all kinds of stuff. And then the other, like you say, is this is what I'm here for. We're here for to help churches, coach churches, act as a consultant. And that's - we would say because the life, the love of Christ compels us, is why Mission Canada's motto is because We Must. Yeah, we have to do it. The love of Christ is compelling us. So we must. Right? Well, Charles, this has been a rich time, man. Thanks for being a resource for me. Appreciated our conversations offline and how you've been a resource for church planters. I've directed you to a few. And love your servant heart. We'll attach that document in our show notes, as well as I'll put your contact information up there. What's the email again? Just in case people want to write it down now? Well, if you can spell it. Charles.Hermelink@paoc.org. Hermalink is not quite as bad as it first sounds. It's really just three little words. Her. Me. Link. Her. Me. Link. Her. Me. Link. That's my whole last name. Her. Me. Link.
I usually talk about my marriage:her, me, link! I know that's it.(Laughter) That's a senior pastor joke right there. You just cracked one open. I love it. Well, that's great. And I know that some people need -- We need to talk about this more because this isn't going away. And this is only going to be something that churches and leaders have to be intentional about. I was talking with a friend of mine who had, you know, gone to a retreat, sat down with the leadership team and said, Yeah, I thought we were doing good in this area until one of our board members who mentioned some things that just left him speechless, that that kind of stuff was still going on in his church. And so it's just like you have to be aware, you have to evaluate, you have to take time to think through things and you have to ask a ton of questions and be a learner. Well, yeah, we do. We do. Well, like I said, this is really, this is really important stuff we're talking about and what a wonderful opportunity that we have, that God has positioned Canada, and you as a leader and me as a leader, and our churches, in prime places to see the Kingdom of God advance here. So thank you for all your work, Charles. You're doing a great job.
Yeah. Acts 17:26 and 27 is one of the most fantastic missions verses relevant to us today. Because here's where we understand immigration. God is behind immigration so that they will perhaps seek him and find him, even though he is not very far from any one of them. Amen. Amen? Amen. Thanks, Charles! Thanks, Paul! Bless you.