In this episode we chat with David Hazzard about some of the big questions he is hearing from leaders around Canada and the world, what kind of budgets we as church leaders should be looking at in light of the economic changes we are seeing and how important our faith in God is while we navigate these very uncertain times.
In this episode we chat with David Hazzard about some of the big questions he is hearing from leaders around Canada and the world, what kind of budgets we as church leaders should be looking at in light of the economic changes we are seeing and how important our faith in God is while we navigate these very uncertain times.
Transcript of Podcast by Multiply Network
Created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-
making communities across Canada
April 13, 2020 – David Hazzard
Paul Fraser: Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-making communities across Canada.
Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast. My name is Paul Fraser. I’m so glad that you tuned in today. I trust you are safe and well. Has a lot changed since our last podcast in March? I don’t think any of us could have predicted what has happened and how quickly things continue to change.
In my interview with David Hazzard of the International Office of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada we talk about this whiplash effect of change that has happened in church worlds in Canada. And, of course, around the world. We talked about some of the biggest questions he’s getting as he is connecting with leaders all across the country, how we should be budgeting for the next 3 to 6 months, where this is all headed and how the church is going to re-emerge. He’s got a lot of wisdom and a lot of faith and you are going to be encouraged by the things he has to say in the interview.
It’s coming up right now.
Q. It has been a long time coming trying to get you on this podcast. You are a busy guy. How are you today?
David Hazzard:
A. I am well, Paul. It’s great to chat with you today.
Q. This is a familiar thing for me because obviously when I come out to Toronto sometimes I get the opportunity to stay with you. It’s like people get to jump in on our conversations that we have at your house.
A. Yes, that’s fantastic and we always have good conversations Paul. You never know what the genesis of a conversation will lead to.
Q. Yes, yes. It is always good stuff and I love your wisdom. So that’s what we’re going to dive into a little bit today. Some things that have been going on lately, I don’t know if you have noticed, but there have been some changes in our world.
What has the last 3 to 4 weeks been like in your role at International Office?
A. Well, yes, like everyone else in the world, I’ve been shifting rapidly to accommodate a new reality and without question the International Office has changed. While we are certainly open for business and we’re online and connecting via Zoom, the office itself is closed as we endeavour to honour the directives of our government and the medical community and maintain a social distance.
The word I keep hearing is pivot. If I hear it too many more times I’m going to die! But everybody is transitioning. Everybody is changing and we are pivoting like that operative word indicates.
I would say also Paul that personally I am walking in this season as a person with great faith. I believe that God is with us. In fact, I believe that as Joseph said to his brothers, God will work all things to good. God is not going to waste his time on coronavirus-19. It is going to be a platform by which he directs glory to himself. But like everyone else I would be filled with faith but yet have perplexity.
Q. Yes.
A. And the perplexity is that I’m not exactly sure what all the changes will look like as we move through coronavirus-19 in the year 2020. It’s such a fascinating season to be a follower of Jesus and I’m just enjoying the journey and like most, I’m looking at the macro picture seeking wisdom and what we will see as a result of this. But in the micro picture for me is I am multi-tasking to ensure ministries find a stable future. And I think one of the things I would say is that governments, societies and families are all asking the question: So what really is essential? I think churches are asking that question. I think Denominations and Fellowships like the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, we too need to ask the question. What is really essential for us to lean into with our human resources and our financial resources?
Q. Yes. So what’s the biggest question you are getting these days?
A. I’ve had the privilege of chatting with leaders across the country and down in the States as well, texting with a few overseas, and there seems to be a common thread in the questions that are surfacing. It’s what will the church look like on the other side of the coronavirus? Everybody seems to be recognizing the reality of what we’re facing today but the larger question is how will society adjust after this and how will the church be able to serve into the new expression of society and what will the church actually be positioned to do as we serve people. That seems to be the primary question that I’m hearing around the world and across Canada.
Q. Well, in a little bit I’m going to dig a little bit deeper with you on that because that seems to be a question that comes up in the conversations I’m a part of, you know. I think this is a wonderful opportunity for the church to reset and be a value to our culture again, be relevant to our culture again and wouldn’t it be great when this season passes that the culture in Canada looks back and says wow, look what the church in Canada did during this crisis.
But obviously you are very aware of the financial picture and the stock markets and you help manage funds and pensions and our international budget. So finances are a huge concern for most churches. What advice are you giving them as it relates to navigating these next 3 to 6 months?
A. Well, I think the first advice whenever we talk about finances is to recognize its power in our own lives. Jesus talked about you cannot serve God nor mammon and it elevates finances to a place of idolatry actually where our hearts can be given to how much money we have or how much money we don’t have and it becomes this preoccupation surrounding money. Interestingly after Jesus, in Matthew 6, talked about you can’t serve God nor mammon, he shifted into the birds of the air. They don’t toil. They don’t spend a lot of time thinking about things that aren’t really important. They trust the heavenly Father.
Q. Yes.
A. So I think for me and for friends that I’ve talked to in terms of money in our personal lives, in our families and especially in the church, let’s not worry about that. Let’s trust God that God will continue to be God as he has through two thousand years of church history and he will supply what is needed.
Q. Yes.
A. I love the old quote from Hudson Taylor who said that we can depend on this, that’s his preface, we can depend on this. God’s work done God’s way will never lack God’s supply. And so we’re in this reshaping of what God’s work will be, what it will look like and I think we can be confident that we’ll never lack God’s supply. So my first appeal to friends, to my own heart, is it’s not really about the money. It’s about trusting God.
Q. That is something that comes up over and over in conversations I have with you is your faith level. In your own personal journey you speak faith to things. One of the things that I’ve said to people over the years is sometimes it’s hard to get people who know a lot about finances to talk about faith. Because faith and finances don’t always go together; the realist personality. And that is one thing I’ve always loved about our conversations. You speak faith first. And I think that’s important, certainly in your role in what you’re doing and just reminding us to trust in God again.
A. Yes. And I believe that faith connected to and married to divine wisdom is going to see the church move forward with great clarity and great confidence into the future. But I do offer practical advice to churches.
Q. That’s true.
A. I am encouraging churches and ministries that there would be value in developing what I call 3 budgets. Budget #1 is the budget of a best case scenario. What would it look like if we were able to meet again at the end of April or early May? Everyone is coming back together and everybody is rejoicing in the fact that congregations can gather again. That would be wonderful and what giving would look like if we were able to congregate again and individuals were growing in a sense of confidence and trust and relationship, face-to-face relationship again. I believe that will encourage increased giving. So develop a budget that is based on what I call the best case scenario.
Let me go to Budget #3 is. Budget #3 is the scenario with the greatest challenge.
Q. Yes.
A. It’s the budget that none of us like to think about but we really have to if we’re going to be godly people.
Q. Right.
A. We as God’s people have never cowered from the magnitude of challenges.
Q. Right.
A. We have looked them square in the eye and we have responded appropriately. So what happens if we don’t meet again until Christmas or January 1, 2021? What will our budget look like then?
And then we need to develop what I call a realistic budget. This would be Budget #2 and it is in the middle of Budget #1 and Budget #3. So Budget #2 is kind of a realistic budget so I think realistically likely we’ll be meeting again by September. We’re just not sure how long social distancing will be the order of the day. So let’s plan on a budget where we’re gathering together in September.
That would require us to adjust expenditures based on the three perceptions of what reality could look like and be prepared to make the hard decisions that will ensure that when we do get back together we are actually viable.
Q. I think that’s great to put those three budgets together. One of the things I was talking about with one of our District guys yesterday was the fact that how we went from gatherings from no more than 250, then 100, then 50 and in Alberta it is down to 10 – they can’t have more than 10 – and that happened very quickly. We chatted about this. I actually don’t see us moving that quickly back to 250 or even 500. I think that is going to affect our bigger churches. Because what happens if we’re back in September and we can only meet 250 at a time and you’ve got a church of a thousand or fifteen hundred? I think the bigger churches might have a longer ramp before they are all meeting together how they used to. I think the smaller churches that are maybe 200 or less will probably be able to meet in full force much quicker.
Have you given any thought to that?
A. Well, one thing I do recognize is that spirit-filled leaders are incredibly creative, without question. I am watching it and you are watching it as well Paul across the nation, the spirit-led creativity of our credential holders is absolutely inspiring to watch what our pastors and leaders are doing. I think if there is a graduated number by which we can meet I think large churches are going to go to multiple services and they might have a service every night of the week to accommodate those that could join and still serve God’s people in a creative way.
Q. Yes. Well, it is going to require some creativity. There is no doubt about that.
As we talk about the creativity and you’re watching it on Facebook. You are hearing stories from different people, I think our churches are responding some of them really well. But in your opinion what do you think is missing in the church’s response to the Covid-19 crisis?
A. I’m not sure there’s anything particularly missing at this moment. But here’s what I do see. I’m well aware of the call to prayer as a result of Covid-19 and how inspiring to see Italians on the street kneeling before God and calling on the name of the Lord. It is happening in Brazil. It is happening in other countries as well. That’s incredibly inspiring. And the online prayer meetings that we are all a part of. That’s fantastic. As well I see a lot of encouragement in the online services primarily for believers and that’s healthy.
But where I see us transitioning is -- I believe that we’re going to see the encouragement for believers transition into evangelism and evangelism itself will move to the front burner. We will stay connected as bodies but it is reaching hearts and inviting them to the hope that is found in Jesus Christ that I think is going to become a front burner issue in the next couple of weeks.
Q. Right. I think it needs to. That’s one thing that ---
I mean, if you look at our stats and you look at other denomination’s stats of new people coming to Christ, making a decision for the first time, we’ve seen incremental growth on that end. I hope out of this crisis that there will be a greater heart for us wanting to connect with our neighbours, get to know our neighbours, be involved in their lives and that this indeed would turn from just a crisis of hey, we’re not meeting in person. We’ve got some financial issues. I hope this awakens the church to what is really important and to be honest with you, that’s making disciples. That is what Jesus seemed to indicate was the job #1. Job #1 wasn’t to, you know, just kind of hold down the fort ‘til he returns. No. The gospel needs to advance.
I like that thought. How do you think we could do that?
A. Well, Paul, let’s call it 2-metre evangelism. (Laughter) Let’s call it social distant but spiritual connection. I think I’m normal with respect to many of the listeners. I am finding it so easy to have spiritual conversations today.
Q. Yes.
A. I was in a small group of people, I think there were 4 of us. They happened to be neighbours up at our cottage. I walked in and just to make sure everybody was doing okay and everybody was 2 metres apart and I didn’t even raise it and they are asking me about scripture. They are asking me about, you know, how does this play into what they think the Bible might have to say.
Q. Yes.
A. Those are golden opportunities. And all we need to do is listen carefully to the nudges of the spirit and we’re going to see an amazing harvest, as the focus moves from not only strengthening the body, but how do we expand the body by inviting others into God’s forever family.
Q. Yes, there’s no question about that. People are asking these questions and hopefully our people, followers of Christ, will have answers.
What do you think is the biggest question ---
And we’ll talk about the future of the church and we’ve dabbled a little bit, but let’s --- You’ve seen lots of trends. You’ve been in church worlds – I’m not going to say your age – you have been in church worlds a long time. (Laughter) You’ve seen lots of trends. What’s the biggest question rolling around in your head about the future of the church in Canada?
A. Great question, Paul. By the way, now that the Canadian dollar is significantly softer I am calculating my age in US funds. I’m really only fifty now! (Laughter)
Q. Nice.
A. It feels pretty good! I think we need to come back to Jesus and listen to Jesus’ promise where he said in Matthew 16:18 that I will build my church. I think we need to rest in the fact that it may look different but there is going to be a church and we need to hold onto that promise.
Q. Right.
A. The other thing we need to hold onto is the fact that the church survived and thrived during periods of historic pandemics. Pandemics are not new. They are not new to the world and they are certainly not new to the ministry of the church. The church has excelled in ministry. So I believe the hope of Jesus’ promise and the enduring tenacity historically of the church positions us to say okay, there will be a church but what will it look like.
I have a feeling as I mentioned earlier Paul that the church is going to be more focused on the essentials of the faith and there will be some peripheral things, some good things that we have adopted and embraced even, and I think some of those will fall by the wayside as we only have a certain amount of energy and human resources to hold onto the best things. So the good is going to give way to the best. And if I can mention a couple of things, I think the church is going to be more organic and less structured. I think the Internet is providing a way for us to engage with each other in meaningful ways and enjoy relationships together. I wonder if coming out of this if the church isn’t going to ramp up its Internet online availability to people and provide alternative times to meet. The only 10 o’clock on Sunday morning or 11 o’clock on Sunday morning, I think it will remain but the creative options are going to become part of the new reality.
And I think that faith is going to come back to the irreducible minimums that Carl F. Henry talked about where the focus isn’t on peripheral issues. The focus is on the core of the Christian faith and the basics: redemption through Jesus’ blood, fullness of the spirit, the Lordship of Christ, the sovereignty of God and a number of other things that perhaps we have embraced or pursued we may not have time for. We may not be able to actually facilitate them. And then taking those truths, packaging them together to encourage one another and to reach the lost, that is going to simplify and profoundly strengthen the church in my view.
Q. How important do you think adaptability and flexibility is going to be key for churches moving forward?
A. Well, I think it is going to be important. But I think the new reality is going to force us, whether we like it or not, to look at some of the potential financial implications. We’ll be forced to reflect on new and creative ways that we can engage. But I come back, you know, to the flourishing of the church in China, for example, that has gone through waves of oppression and that church continues to flourish. They are right now in a season of challenge, significant challenge. The government is tearing down their meeting places. You see pictures of big bulldozers pushing down churches. Do they really think they are going to stop the church? I mean, really, really? The church in China is going to move forward with increased power as a result of the attempt to thwart its ministry. I see the same coming out of coronavirus. I don’t see this as a season of the weakening of the church. I see it as a season of strengthening of the church and pushing the church into its core values, its core purpose and we will move forward through this with even increased power.
Q. C’mon. Yes.
A. The verse I mentioned to one of the groups I was online with recently was let’s just agree to live in Ephesians 6:10 where we will be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.
Q. C’mon.
A. And we will watch that strength come to our lives personally and then we will watch his strength in us influence others who are watching the Christian community carefully and wondering wow, where do you folks get your calmness, your hope, your peace?
Q. Yes.
A. So it is a great opportunity. The church is going to be stronger as a result of this, in my view.
Q. Thanks, David. That is a helpful word I think for people, you know, who are feeling the fear of what is this going to be like. How is this going to change? How is this going to affect me? But we put our faith in something more certain than prognosticators of what people think it is going to be or what it isn’t going to be.
Today’s podcast may be finding people in all sorts of situations. What other words of encouragement would you give them today?
A. Well, I would say that believers shine in hours of crisis. That is historical that the church rises to the occasion in any challenge and it offers hope and help. We are a people who have our hands up in worship to God and we are people who offer our hands to help our neighbour and I believe that God will continue to work through us. Believers are going to be strong in this hour. I believe that believers are going to continue to be generous. I mean Paul, you asked me about finances earlier. I’m reminded of my time when I served in Nairobi, Kenya for 3 years. Do you know that believers in Kenya do not get a tax receipt for their giving but they give anyway? My point is believers are going to give because they are believers, because Jesus said that it is more blessed to give than receive.
Q. Right.
A. So I would just encourage all of us to stay on the front edge of generosity.
Q. Yes.
A. If you will allow me a little story, Paul. A good friend of mine in the 2008 downturn, he was in prayer one day and he said this to me confidentially. He said: “Well, I was telling the Lord that I could relax on my giving because the economy had turned softer. And the Lord said to him: Don’t you think I’m able to provide for you as much even in a time of downturn? Don’t limit my ability to bless you.” So he actually felt that he needed to continue not only tithing on what his revenue was – and it was reduced – he needed to continue giving and live in generosity based on how the Lord could bless him through this season. That was an incredible lesson to me from a good friend, a layman in business, who was just continuing to trust the Lord.
Maybe a final word Paul is that I see believers offering 4 “C’s”, the 4 “C’s” ---
Q. Okay. Here we go.
A. To the culture and society. You know, being a good Pentecostal communicator it has to be alliterated!
Q. Are you going to end with a poem as well? (Laughter)
A. No. But there is a picture of a sunset. I’m a missionary! (Laughter) A picture of the sunset over the trees!
Q. Okay. What are the 4 “C’s”?
A. Here they are. The first one is we engage this with “Calm”. Let not our hearts be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. So we walk in a calmness. I was really impressed with the Queen and how calm she was as she communicated. And I believe that as God’s people, particularly we as leaders, that we approach conversations, we approach opportunities to share that there is a calmness about our hearts and a calmness in our spirit.
The second “C” is we’re “Caring.” We’re not tone deaf to the pressures and concerns that other people are having and we approach our conversations where we’re not looking just to talk, we’re looking to listen, we’re looking to find out what is going on in the heart of the people that we’re connecting with. We care. We show genuine care. That is what the Christian church has excelled at in previous pandemics and we’re going to do the same.
The third “C” I have already mentioned and you and I laughed about it a bit is the “Creativity” of spirit-filled leaders.
Q. Yes.
A. It is a season for beautiful creativity and I think we’re going to see expressions of gospel communication come to the fore that perhaps we had not even thought of before.
Q. Right.
A. So I am seeking to live in that creativity.
The final one is that we will “Courageously” share the faith and we will step out of ourselves because this coronavirus, this pressure that is going on in the world, it’s not about us. It is about us being God’s servants in God’s time and how can we creatively and courageously lean into the conversations that we all can have with precious people, family members, neighbours and see Jesus glorified in this season.
So let’s do it together.
Q. I love those 4 “C’s” man. That’s so great. Again, I’m encouraged every time I talk to you I’m encouraged. Glad you are able to jump on with us today and to speak such faith-filled language in a place where worry and anxiety in our culture is certainly increasing. I think as people listen to it they will hear this, too, that you use scripture. I don’t know many scriptures – you probably don’t even know – but I’m just so taken aback by here’s a point, here’s a scripture. Here’s a thought, here’s a scripture. I know you are in the word a lot and that’s a reminder, I think, to all of us in this time. If you want to be able to speak faith filled language you have to be in the word.
Do you have any comments about that?
A. A wise man once said faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God! So I think walking as men and women and young people of faith today is really important. But faith doesn’t just fall out of the sky. We have to apply our hearts to growing in faith, to seeking God, to be filled with faith, to be filled with his word. And understand the faithfulness of God through history. There is no time to be fearful, no time to lament what was.
Q. Yes.
A. It is time to lean in with anticipation and hope into what will be and what God who is the Creator of all things, what God will create as a result of coronavirus-19.
Q. Yes. It is going to be interesting. I think I was in a conversation with you recently, I think it was maybe a Lead Team Meeting we had, and you said something to the effect of I’m so excited to be leading in this time of uncertainty. And you literally do get excited about how God is going to work these things together for good, how we all have a role to play, we can be learners, we can be communicators, but we’re always disciple-makers, we’re always faith filled people who speak with faith filled language.
I just want to thank you for your leadership. Thank you to you and Stacey for the many years that you guys have just leaned into this Fellowship. And also, I don’t know if people know this, but you recently finished your doctorate.
A. Yes, that was a year ago right now. So I’m very thankful to have that journey behind me and that was a strengthening journey and an expanding journey in my own life. I’m very grateful for the privilege of studying and contributing to our Fellowship through research that I completed.
Q. Yes. Maybe that’s another podcast that we could do. You know, when we were talking about your doctorate and the importance of integrity in leadership and ministry, that would be worth another podcast maybe that we could just maybe unpack a little bit of your research and learning.
A. Sure, Paul, happy to chat about that.
Back to your comment about leading today. When I was a young pastor I was pastoring Edmonton Evangel at the time and I came across a quote. If you remember in the late eighties, early nineties, it was a time of incredible transition in the church as well. The world was changing. Things were changing. And the quote I came across and I can’t recall who said it, he said these are the days that great leaders wish they could have lived. I think there are a lot of great leaders who have passed on. They wished they could have been involved in leadership right now, right here, in this season.
And let me conclude Paul by thanking God for giving me health and strength that I’m able to lean into the challenge of leadership with you and with friends across this nation and friends down in the States as well. I’m just so honoured to be breathing, to be with you and doing what I can do to encourage hearts and to think clearly about what the future is going to look like with so many other precious friends. I’m grateful to be shoulder-to-shoulder in the trenches right now.
Q. Yes, yes. Well thanks so much for being a voice in my life and Corrie’s and our family. We love you guys and are grateful. Thanks also for being a voice in our Fellowship and to other leaders and for being a part of our podcast today. We so appreciate it.
A. You are welcome Paul. Any time.
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