In this episode we talk with Bill about the creative vision he and his leadership have for their new building, what the future looks like for churches in Canada and the necessary pivots churches should make moving forward. You will feel both challenged and encouraged as you hear his heart in this interview.
In this episode we talk with Bill about the creative vision he and his leadership have for their new building, what the future looks like for churches in Canada and the necessary pivots churches should make moving forward. You will feel both challenged and encouraged as you hear his heart in this interview.
Transcript of Podcast by Multiply Network
Created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-
making communities across Canada
2020 – Bill Markham
Paul Fraser: Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-making communities across Canada.
Hi there. Thanks for tuning in today. My name is Paul and I’m the host of the Multiply Network podcast. We’re so grateful you took time to listen today. Our guest is Pastor Bill Markham from Central Community Church in St. Catharines. I loved this conversation. I know you are going to as well. We talk about why online is the future of the Church, shifts we need to make, and he talks about the 3 “C’s” of church and how they all look different: content, community and care. But what I love about this interview is you’re going to hear his heart for people far from God. You are going to hear his heart for pastors and you’re going to hear a passionate appeal for us to maybe shift and change some of the things that we’re used to doing so that we can reach people in Canada and, perhaps, around the world for Jesus.
He’s a great thinker who thinks outside the box and he’s going to challenge you today with some of those thoughts and it is coming up right now.
Q. Hi Bill. Welcome to the podcast.
Bill Markham:
A. Thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s awesome to be here.
Q. It’s so great to have you join us to talk about some important things as we look to the future in church. Why don’t you take a minute to tell us just a little bit about you, your call to ministry and how you ended up where you’re at?
A. Yes. Really quick, my dad and mom were missionaries, so I grew up in Thailand. Then we moved back when I was a teenager. My dad was a pastor. When I was about seventeen years old, I felt the call. And I felt that because I just saw a lot of my friends around me – I played a lot of sports and had a lot of friends who didn’t go to church – I realized there was something I had experienced growing up that they hadn’t had the opportunity or been exposed to that experience. So I really just wanted to make a difference. It wasn’t really until recently that I was able to articulate this. Here’s my reason for existence. I realized 3 things. One, we were all created to make the world a better place. I really believe that. Second, I believe that love is the only thing that will do that. And third, I articulate this especially to my friends who aren’t followers of Jesus, that Jesus is the best example of this and so I follow Him. So that has been really my guiding principle for life. I love it.
Q. I love that. There are some great thoughts there.
You are leading Central in St. Catharines and doing a great job out there. In the middle of a building program -- well, not in the middle, however you have been in this for a while --
A. A long time. Yes.
Q. But you are repurposing ---
Maybe that’s the wrong word. You are building this with a different purpose. You are not repurposing it; you are building with a different purpose.
What’s the vision of Central and how is your building going to serve that vision?
A. The vision of Central has always been to reach our community. We wanted to equip followers of Jesus to do that. So our Vision Statement is inviting people into a life that matters. It is really actually rooted ---
To know me you’ve got to know the story of my mom. My mom grew up in a very difficult non-Christian home. A small little church invited her to a VBS back in the day: Vacation Bible School. As a result of that my entire family came to be followers of Jesus. So for generations now that legacy has been there.
Q. Wow.
A. I thought, “wouldn’t it be great if we could create a space where others could experience that same thing for generations?” So, we started a vision, it was about ten years ago, and I recognized back then that church buildings were losing or going to lose their functionality if they didn’t transform into community centers. I really didn’t know how to articulate it at that time and it is only through this pandemic I am actually realizing that it is becoming more evident. We needed to create a community space, first and foremost, that the church used, rather than a church space we would let the community use.
Q. Right.
A. There were 2 reasons we did it. One was philosophical: We wanted to eliminate as many barriers as possible for people to come into our space and we wanted to actually create safe places for people to rub shoulders. Because, again, we forget how difficult it is for someone to step across a threshold into a church.
Q. Right.
A. To equate in our own context, it would be like if you had a friend who was a Buddhist and invited you to the temple. Well, that’s a pretty big step and we forget that. So we wanted to eliminate as many barriers as possible.
And the second one was practical: I realized that we needed a space that paid the bills and so we are building a building that will be self-sustaining. Every part, every aspect; there’s not a single space in that building that cannot be repurposed for community and to generate revenue.
Q. Wow.
A. So, with those 2 approaches, we built this new space. Or we’re building - We’re about 6 months away from finishing.
Q. To me, that’s revolutionary because, typically, we think when we get into buildings and we think about the sanctuary and the kids’ space and the youth wing and the gym – all really good things – I haven’t heard too many people go ‘we’re actually building this for the community’. How did that come about, because I actually think that’s a big part of our future, especially since we can’t meet in buildings right now? When we come back, I think we have an opportunity to repurpose our current buildings to be way more community friendly. But how did you get to that point? What led you there? Obviously, God was speaking to you, but what really pulled you into that model or that building program?
A. What really interested me was my engagement with my community so I actually believe no one should preach what they don’t practice. So I don’t think you should speak about evangelism if you don’t have any unsaved friends.
Q. True.
A. This is a personal thing.
Q. No, it’s true.
A. Yes. So I was actively involved in my community. I coached volleyball. I saw my nieces, they were all involved in dance and I was observing where people gathered in large numbers, where that happened culturally. So, I thought, “man if I could just create a space where that happened naturally...”, The biggest challenge for me was convincing our congregation that we are not going to build a sanctuary. We weren’t even really going to build an auditorium. We were going to build a gym and in a church our size, people were saying, “What are you talking about? That’s what church planters do. That’s what small churches do to start. They only do that to get things going. You are going backwards.”
I said, “Actually, no, I think we’re going forwards.” So we built a space that will be a state-of-the-art gym, concert space and then on Sundays, we will just transform it into a space that we can use on the weekends for our services. It was actually just by observation. What is the most likely space that people who don’t follow Jesus would gather in that size? So that’s kind of how the idea started.
Q. It is just so opposite to what a church planter would be thinking. We’re talking to church planters here. You are purposely building that you have to set up chairs every week! Other planters are going, ‘I can’t wait for the day that we stop setting up chairs!’ and here you’re building a building purposely.
But what you are saying is you are making the community the priority.
A. Absolutely. And what has happened is, when we first started the project, of course everyone hears about a church being built and there’s a lot of animosity in our government and the decision-making powers in our communities ---
But once they heard what we were trying to do and why we were doing it and that we were doing it with the community first, you wouldn’t believe the shift that happened and the opportunities I have had even to engage with our mayor – the mayor and I are good friends. He even called me during the pandemic a couple of times. We’re just working through things. But it opened up doors of opportunity. Because here’s the problem: Most people in our communities actually think the church is an isolated island, irrelevant or actually against them.
Q. Right.
A. And if you could physically demonstrate the opposite. I think that’s what Jesus did. I think that was the whole point of the incarnation. Incarnation is to physically manifest what is true and so what if your building physically manifested what you believe to be true: we are for the community. But most of our buildings don’t. And the sad thing is that most people will never step inside of our building.
So what if we reverse the narrative? They step in our building all the time and then they go, “Oh, there’s something happening here on Sunday? Oh. Well, I’ve already been there. I already know where the bathrooms are. I already know where the entrances are, the exits, I know everything about that space because I was there for a tournament, a concert, a trade show, whatever.”
What if we could just change the narrative about what our community actually thinks about us? We’re not building a fortress where we hang out in once a week. We are actually building a space for everybody. That would be powerful.
Q. Just on a side note, one of the things that we noticed coming out of the state of church planting in Canada - there was a document done years ago - that more people per capita got saved in a school space and a new church plant than other spaces. Because the comfortability of people going to schools. It’s like ‘I know the school. It’s a safe place for my kids.’ I think there is something to it.
You said something to me - just shifting gears a little bit - obviously the pandemic has changed so much. That’s maybe the understatement of the day. But you said to me a couple of years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, “Online is going to be a big part of our future, Paul. You have to be thinking about that in the church planting world.”
Okay. We’re in it. How big of a part is online of our future for the church in Canada and why?
A. I don’t think it’s a part of our future. I think it is our future.
Q. Okay.
A. In order to understand that, let me just talk about a couple of things really quick. First, just a quick history lesson. In order to understand why the gospel as we have it currently hasn’t gained traction throughout history, you have to understand history. So for example Abraham, the Jewish nation, the Ten Commandments, all of that comes out of the Bronze Age. That’s a major breakthrough in technology in our culture. What happens is we move from tribalism to civilizations through this. Then Abraham comes along and he actually is going to form a nation. So he’s leveraging, to use a term, technology to leverage an idea. So he goes from a polytheistic world view where lots of tribes have all kinds of gods to a centralized idea that there is one God. That’s actually a major breakthrough.
Q. Yes.
A. The nation of Israel is going to have a major impact. Then of course you have the Roman roads. The Romans bring all kinds of technological breakthroughs and Jesus comes just at that time. It’s interesting that in order for the gospel to spread throughout the whole world you’re going to need transportation. That technology, that one technological breakthrough, plus common language and trade, is the reason the gospel spreads as quickly as it does.
Then you have the Reformation. Again, there is a technological breakthrough that is attached to it: the printing press. The Bible is printed and now it starts the Reformation because people can actually read the Bible for themselves. Okay, if we are astute students of history and we learn from our past, we should notice that whenever there is a major breakthrough in technology there’s an advancement in civilization. Those who leverage it for the gospel actually see great advances.
So you may be in denial but the digital era is here to stay.
Q. Yes.
A. And it has, radically, not only changed our world, but changed the way our minds actually work.
Q. Right.
A. If we underestimate that, we are going to miss a massive opportunity.
Q. Yes.
A. So, for me, the shift has gone from the limitation of time and space, which we still function under, with its barriers, that’s the old world. Okay? That’s the old way of thinking, to a new idea where I can on demand access stuff.
Q. And that’s the thing. Time and space, what you mean by that is that On-Demand culture. Correct?
A. 100%. So, think of it this way: Nobody listening to this -- well, I actually shouldn’t say that -- People aren’t restricted in their viewing habits any longer. It is still true in the sports world a little bit. But nobody goes to Blockbuster, nobody has a TV Guide out going, ‘okay, 7 o’clock on Thursday that’s when I get to watch my show. If I can’t watch it when I want to watch it, I’m not interested.’
Q. Yes.
A. But we’re still limited by time and space in our thinking when it comes to the church world. We say, “Show up on Sunday at such-and-such a time and in such-and-such a space.” Time and space - 2 limitations to our culture - and listen to an expert. You are limited in who speaks to you. I’m just afraid that, culturally, that doesn’t fly any more.
Q. I totally agree. That is going to be the tougher part to navigate. Honestly, on-demand is huge and when time and space become our biggest hindering factor, I think you are right. I think we are going to be missing an opportunity.
What have you guys been navigating in your church, and maybe broaden it to the church in Canada, as it relates to what are you learning through this pandemic about what you guys are going through? You were just telling me that you were on a call with other pastors across Canada. What are you hearing from them?
A. I want to say 2 things to that. The first is I think we’ve got to stop seeing this as an obstacle and see it as an opportunity. So just a quick theological background to that statement. I love the book of Acts and as Pentecostals we love that book.
Q. Amen!
A. But we need to study it again because there is something in there that we don’t talk about. So, in Acts 1, of course, Jesus gives the promise of the Spirit and He says that “You are going to be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth.” We get to chapter 7 and they are still stuck in Jerusalem. So, something happens in Acts Chapter 8 and it is a catalytic moment. There’s a crisis. It is Stephen being stoned and the church begins to be persecuted. But, as a result, it says they were scattered. Where? Oh, to Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth. Everywhere they went they shared their story. As a result the church begins to spread. It actually takes a crisis for the church to do what it was supposed to do. It had grown comfortable.
Q. Right.
A. It was still stuck in Jerusalem. So then you have Acts Chapter 10. In order for that to happen though, there has to be a radical shift, like a radical shift. So God shows Peter a vision, and this is the crazy part about Acts Chapter 10. God asks Peter to break God’s law. Just sit on that for a second. If you just take 5 or 10 minutes to meditate on that thought alone today it will radically shift something for you. God says, “Okay, I know, all the things I said you weren’t supposed to do. Now I’m telling you you’ve gotta do it. It’s the only way you are going to reach the Gentiles.” Peter does the right thing. “No, no, I’ll never do that.” “I can’t do that.” I hear that from pastors all the time. “We can’t do that.” “No, I won’t do that.” “No, that’s not godly. That’s not biblical.”
I’m sorry. You need to read Acts Chapter 10 again. If that is what it takes to reach the Gentiles, God is willing to say, “Listen, the rule always is subject to the reason.”
Q. Right.
A. The rule does not take prominence over the reason. The reason wins the day. So rules change. I know I’m rattling some cages here.
Q. No, I like it.
A. But it is true. Rules change. So, Peter goes, “Okay, great.” Cornelius is converted and we have the birth of the Gentile church. Thank goodness, or none of us would be here.
Q. Yes.
A. Then, in Acts Chapter 15, something happens. It’s fascinating. So, you think, ‘oh, great, he made the shift.’ No, he didn’t because there are still many difficult conversations. So, in Acts Chapter 15, now Paul is trying to convince everybody, you know, it doesn’t matter if people are circumcised or not. It’s kind of awkward and hard to express to a whole bunch of fully grown Gentile men that you have to do this.
Q. Yes.
A. And Peter confronts him. Peter forgets. Innovators have to constantly be innovative or they forget. So, I feel like, even in the church world, something that was innovative even 10-15-30 years ago we’re still clinging to it. It’s sacred. It’s not! There is nothing. There is one thing sacred: the mission of Jesus Christ. That is the only thing that is sacred. Everything else is subject to that reason. People go, “Oh Bill, you are just opening the door to all kinds of things.” Yes. Yes. Because if that is what it takes ---
Here’s the thing, Paul. I don’t know. What plan? When are we going to wake up and say, “I’m not longer satisfied with 7% of Canada?” At what point are we going to say, “Listen ---"
Q. Just stop there for a second.
A. Okay.
Q. At what point? At what point do we just say ---
I heard Tom Rayner say this stat. It’s quite dated. He said something to the effect of 90% of churches in North America are losing ground, meaning even the growing churches aren’t growing fast enough to keep up with population growth, or their community. Their community could be growing all around them and they are growing at a little pace but they’re not ---
At what point do we just kind of throw everything up? I feel like this pandemic season has put everything up for debate. At least it should. There shouldn’t be one leader out there in Canada that is not thinking like a church planter right now as you re-engage and re-open. Because, I feel like, everything now is up for debate. Nothing is going to be the same when we get back together.
This is your interview so I’m going to stop talking right now. But I couldn’t agree with you more about being satisfied with 7%.
A. There’s 2 things I think. The story of the Emperor Has No Clothes comes to mind. Because if you tell yourself you have clothes but you’re naked; you’re naked.
Q. That’s not in the Bible though, is it?
A. Well, it should be. (Laughter) It was one Mark didn’t get down. Jesus was speaking too fast that morning.
Q. It must have been something to do with Nero. It just didn’t catch.
A. It didn’t connect.
Q. Yes, yes.
A. But it takes a child sometimes to say, “Hey, look, you don’t have clothes on because you have confirmation bias.” And as long as you keep telling yourself you’re winning, even when you’re not, you are not going to be self-aware enough to acknowledge something has to change.
The second thing is that old cliché statement: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So, we think, ‘oh, if I just tweak my messaging or if I just tweak my worship’. Well, if that were true then we would be gaining ground because we’re tweaking that stuff all the time. So there has to come a desperation again for people to the point where I’m willing to ---
Q. Yes.
A. Am I willing to give up everything I’m comfortable with in Jerusalem? Am I comfortable with giving up everything I know growing up as a Jewish child? Am I willing to give up even the things that were entrenched as being theologically correct in order to reach the Gentile? That’s the question that we must answer.
I’m sorry. You don’t get off the hook on that one. You can’t excuse that one away. That is a question you must answer and I am wrestling with that right now. I think this is really important. Please, if you are listening to this and you are hearing criticism, that is not at all what is happening. This is a passionate plea. It is the opposite of criticism. It is a plea to say ‘please, could we reclaim the beauty and the power of the gospel that transcends culture and barriers, even religious, culture and barriers that we establish in order for people to come into the incredible saving knowledge of who Jesus is and He changes your life’.
That is what this is all about at the end of the day. So I constantly ask myself the hard questions because that is all I want. I’m for you. I’m in the trenches with you, trying to figure this out.
Q. Thank you for saying that. That’s the last thing that any of us want to be. This isn’t a criticism.
A. Not at all.
Q. This is a call for us to rethink, to re-imagine what could happen because I’ve got stories of countries around the world that have seen, in the last decade or so, one in particular that I’m thinking of, that tripled what they did. It was small shifts focusing back on making disciples, focusing on the gospel, redefining what their ecclesiology is and making it ---
Again, not being satisfied with addition but really going after multiplication.
We talked about it a little bit but I know there are a couple of things brewing in your heart and spirit. What shifts do we need to make coming out of this pandemic?
A. I thought about that a little bit. Just to summarize what we have been talking about, we need to reclaim reason over rule. What I mean by that is the ‘why’ before we even can tackle the ‘how’ and the ‘what’. Because if you don’t get the ‘why’ right, your ‘how’ and what is going to be completely irrelevant.
Q. Yes.
A. If you don’t have an engine in your car it doesn’t matter what colour you paint it. It doesn’t matter how ---
You’ve got to get the ‘why’ right.
Second, we’ve got to reclaim passion over security. What I mean by that is we have got to stop playing safe. We've got to stop worrying. This is the biggest challenge for me. We’ve got to stop worrying about people’s expectations that are being placed on us and what people are saying and how people are going to react. We’ve got to reclaim passion.
Q. Yes. C’mon.
A. I’m not talking about a passion for something that happened thirty years ago. That was awesome. I’m thankful for it. It shaped me and formed me. But again, when I hear pastors talking, I hear constantly ‘let’s go back to Egypt’. I’m not comparing here ---
Q. No, no, no.
A. Let’s just go to the Promised Land. Let’s go forward. And then just finally reclaim love at all costs.
Q. Yes.
A. This is the challenge for me, and it has caused me to rethink really everything about what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. So, for me, honestly, the first shift has got to be answering the ‘why’. Why are we doing this?
Q. That brings evaluation. It brings examination and it may mean saying “Yes” to some things and “No” to others.
A. Yes.
Q. And that’s not easy. And that’s the cost of leadership sometimes: making the hard decisions. But they are the right ones. I feel like we’re going to come into a season where we are going to have some hard decisions to make.
I work in church multiplication. You and I were talking about what do you think starting new disciple-making communities will look like moving forward. What are your thoughts about that?
A. That’s a great question, because I think it will help summarize everything again.
So, for us, the first thing in this pandemic, we had to actually ask ourselves, “Okay, what can the church do better than anyone else, or why does the church exist?” “Let’s boil it down to that level. Let’s strip away what we can’t do and how we could do this. Let’s get to the core.” And we came up with 3 things as an Executive Team and a Board. We decided we provide faith-building content.
Q. Okay.
A. No one else does that. We build meaningful connections because, not only are we connected to each other, we are connected to God. That’s meaningful connection.
Q. Totally.
A. And we have always been intentional in caring for people. When the church is at its best, it is taking care of the needs of those around them. So, we said -- Okay, for the sake of alliteration for all you ‘three-point pastors’ out there, this will preach! --
Q. Okay.
A. Content, connection and care.
Q. Okay.
A. So, once we got that, then we thought, “Okay so then there’s a shift.” So here’s what I think pastors are afraid of. “Oh well, Bill, if you are saying we shouldn’t meet on Sundays…” No, no. You are missing it. I’m simply shifting why we meet on Sundays.
Q. Yes.
A. We met on Sundays to deliver content. That’s what we did. We can excuse it away but that’s the truth. We built a whole weekend experience, where you would come and you would consume content, whether it was a worship set, whatever, and we had our stupid battles over that. Preaching styles and what topics. That was content. That has shifted. The content now is digital. So just get your head around that for a second.
What we do when we gather is we have meaningful connection.
Q. Yes.
A. I’m going to help some of you out here. Okay. The reason your congregation wants to get back to church isn’t to hear you preach.
Q. Oh, oh, oh, that stings.
A. But it’s true. Everything I’ve asked - We’ve done surveys, phone calls, we’ve talked to all our congregation - and as hard as it is for me to hear it, they love me, they enjoy my preaching but what they really want is to get connected.
Q. Thank you.
A. They want to get together to get connected to God and to each other.
Q. It’s true.
A. Okay. So, when we gather, my question has been for our team, how do we increase connection? If we can deliver content online and they can get that whenever they want, how do we actually increase that? And the final one is around this idea of care. Here’s what I’m learning: Care can never be a program. Because as soon as you make care a program, you will never be able to meet all the needs, and it will become financially overwhelming and crush you.
Q. Wow.
A. It has always been birthed out of genuine relationship. If I care for you and you have a need, I’ll take care of it. So we have got to strip away our programs that take care of people and empower people to take care of people.
Q. Yes.
A. That will happen naturally through relationship. So, we took these 3 concepts and we said, “Okay,” let’s say, “here’s the thing. There is no pandemic that can stop those 3 things from happening.” They may change how they happen. They may change direction of funds and resources, human resources. So, the first thing we did is we realigned. We said, “everybody has a new job description”. That’s the reality. So now we slowly started experimenting with ‘how do we build digital faith-building content every day?’
Here’s the big shift for me: We need to reclaim the home as the spiritual center.
Q. Oh, stop right there. Stop right there. I think we need to hear that. I feel that as well. This decentralization is pushing spiritual formation back to homes and smaller groups.
A. 100%. The reason we are not making disciples is because we have created programs that don’t make disciples. Here’s what I mean by that: We let them off the hook. We do it all for them. “Bring your kids to us and we’ll disciple them.’ ‘Bring your teens to us and we’ll disciple them.’ ‘You come once a week for an hour and we’ll disciple you’ and then people go ‘I’m dying’ the rest of the week. Because we haven’t taught them Deuteronomy 6 where church is actually every day. Church is every day. It’s not a building. It’s not a gathering. When we gather, we celebrate the church but it’s not the church. Church is every day.
Q. Yes.
A. So, we’ve been going, ‘how do we build faith-building content every day? How do we equip and empower people to reclaim their homes and their hearts as the spiritual center, not looking to pay professionals or to buildings to do that for them, but to actually take responsibility to walk in the way?’ I’ve been reframing my thoughts around this. What is the way? What is key and essential for every believer in Jesus to walk in that way? I’ll be honest with you, a lot of stuff we teach and practice doesn’t ---
I mean, it’s interesting. It’s fascinating --- but it is not essential to walking in the way.
Q. Yes.
A. So how do we build content so people can equip themselves, empower themselves, reclaim the priesthood of all believers? And how, when we do gather, make that meaningful connection to God and to each other as opposed to just coming for content? And then out of that care will take care of itself. If you have a heartbeat and you love somebody and they have a need, you meet it. This is why Acts Chapter 2 ---
I want to challenge everyone to read Acts Chapter 2:40-47. Again, because it answers those 3 questions. It’s this idea they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching. Great. We can do that online. They continued to meet together. We can do that. But let’s make sure we know why we’re doing that. And they took care. They were all together and took care of everyone’s needs. That is the church. No crisis, no pandemic, no shift in technology, no personality can ever rob us of that if we truly sink deep into it.
Q. What is rolling around in my head is: What if we stopped, you know, our gatherings all together? We stopped having Sunday morning church, Thursday night church, whenever you have your main gathering. What if we stopped doing that? Would the church still exist in Canada? Well, the answer to that is yes. Because church isn’t confined. We always say it isn’t confined to one day, but then we act like it does.
A. Right.
Q. Go ahead.
A. Think of it this way, too. Where has the church been most effective? When it is struggling underground.
Q. Yes.
A. Why? Because people have to take responsibility. And they do! Here’s the other thing: I think we’ve actually insulted our people, because we have treated them children. We have treated them like if they don’t have us, they can’t do this. That’s a mistake.
Q. I think a big huge massive part of our future is empowering laity to function in five-fold ministry, to function in all the gifts, to release them, oh yes. This bi-vocational, co-vocational planting is a huge part of our future.
A. Do you know who has come alive in our church through this pandemic? Our life group leaders. Because they are coming up with all kinds of creative ideas to take care of their group. How do we do this Zoom thing? How do we take care of needs when we can’t be there? It’s really powerful. It has been a wake-up call to me. You’ve got to understand the priesthood of all believers. We are all created in the image of God. We are all given gifts in order to serve the needs. We are the body of Christ.
Q. And you are there to equip them for works of service.
A. Exactly. Just so we’re clear on that. Because I know a lot of people are going to hear that and go ‘oh, I’ve got to create a program, a discipleship program.’ You are not hearing me. This is not a program. Can we please lose program language? This is a Movement. What we’re talking about is not ‘equipping them with 5 steps to a better life’. We’re not talking about ‘jump through these hoops to be a disciple’. We are talking about taking responsibility. We will give you resources and tools to find your way on this and we will mentor you in it but you have to take the responsibility for it.
Q. Love it.
A. I think that’s the call.
Q. I agree. I agree. Well, one last question, man. This has been rich. But the last question is: What are you thinking about as the possibility of reopening, re-purposing gatherings as the church moves closer? I know your region is different. You are in Ontario. Still the numbers seem high there. It could be.
Just quickly, what are 2 or 3 things you are thinking about and what, maybe, are you talking about as the possibility for reopening happens?
A. We’ve developed what we call our Three Phase Plan. In the current plan, we have committed to those 3 things. We are going to continue to go with faith-building content online, and we have broadened it to all of our pastors to drive stuff, ideas, thoughts, devotionals, moments, Bible reading, just help people reclaim their heart and home every day as a church. We’re also doing groups through Zoom and we’re caring for people through ---
I mean, I’m still doing funerals and weddings. They are different, very different, but we still do that. And we can care for one another through phone calls. With our seniors we realized a lot of them couldn’t watch online because they didn’t have that technology. So we set up a phone where they could call in and listen to the services and they could get a personal call from a pastor.
Q. Love it.
A. All of our pastors are caring. So that’s our current state.
But we saw Phase 1, being when they open up from 10 to twenty-five. At that point, we’re going to encourage people to gather again around watch parties. But again, not around content. So we’re not going to tell them, “well when you get together, watch this DVD of me talking!” No. Connect to God and connect to each other.
Then in Phase 2 which will be, we think, we guess, groups of a hundred or more but under, say, like three hundred, we realize we are going to have limited gatherings and they will probably be ticketed events. It’s not going to cost them money.
Q. I know. I know. But it’s crazy. You have to monitor attendance.
A. You do. It will have to be first-come-first-served. People will, unfortunately, be excluded. But we will not stop doing our online content. So, it will be an invitation, not back to the old, but an invitation as a bridge into the new. You will come and be, for lack of a better word, and I know this is going to sound really crass to a lot of you ---
Q. I know what you are going to say but I love it.
A. You are going to be a viewer, a participant in an online experience. You are going to be the audience.
Q. The LIVE STUDIO AUDIENCE!
A. I know. I didn’t want to say that. But again, we’ll make sure that in that, we create space for you to have meaningful connection to God and to each other. But we cannot forsake, in our context the thousands of people who are watching online.
Q. Right.
A. Finally, in Phase 4, which we think will be, for us it has to be, we can’t gather again in the same setting until we get to that 750+ because that’s how many people we can seat in one experience. At that point we will go back to gathering but our gatherings will look different and we will continue our online presence.
Like you said. The shift for us has been we were a physical presence with a digital footprint. My good friend said it this way. So, we are a physical presence and we tried to capture all that digitally so you can experience the physical piece. That has shifted. We are moving towards being a digital presence with a physical footprint; meaning we will focus our energy and time on the digital community and invite you into what is a footprint physically.
That can be, man, that’s not restricted to Sunday morning at “X” time. It could be anytime, anywhere and anyhow. That’s the shift that is taking place.
Q. And the other side of it, where we don’t have time to talk about it, but the other side of it is it could happen anywhere. People could be in other countries. People could feel a part of your assembly, a part of your church and be in another part of Canada. The opportunity for multiplication there is massive.
Now all of a sudden disciple-making communities are popping up from Central all over Canada. I think we’ve got some incredible opportunities. While there are some obstacles, I think we have to shift our perspective to opportunity.
Bill, this has been rich. Let’s do this again and chat more about the future. I’m feeling we could talk about this all day. But I just want to thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’m challenged. I know our listeners are challenged and appreciate you taking the time to be with us today.
A. Thanks for letting me be here. I just have one last thought for anybody watching. Please dig into this, because this world desperately needs you to, and it is why you are on this planet. So don’t miss this opportunity. Please don’t see it as an obstacle. See it as an opportunity for God to do legitimately something new in you and in your community. Because this world needs you.
Q. Thanks for your humility. Thanks for your encouragement. We receive it.
All right. Have a great day.
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