In this episode we chat with some of our Mission Canada workers about how discipleship is changing on University, College and High School Campuses. We catch up with David Burke from Ryerson University, Trevor Gingerich from Humber College and Adam Gilfillan who works as a communicator and influencer on high school campuses all over Canada. We talk about discipleship processes, how Covid has changed that and what the future looks like on campus ministry. You will love this podcast because of the great content and insights that every leader to glean from!
In this episode we chat with some of our Mission Canada workers about how discipleship is changing on University, College and High School Campuses. We catch up with David Burke from Ryerson University, Trevor Gingerich from Humber College and Adam Gilfillan who works as a communicator and influencer on high school campuses all over Canada. We talk about discipleship processes, how Covid has changed that and what the future looks like on campus ministry. You will love this podcast because of the great content and insights that every leader to glean from!
Transcript of Podcast by Multiply Network
Created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-
making communities across Canada
August 13, 2020 – David Burke, Trevor Gingrich, Adam Gilfillan
Paul Fraser: Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-making communities across Canada.
Hi there. Welcome to the Multiply Network. I’m so glad you jumped on today. My name is Paul Fraser and I’m the host and excited about the conversation I had with David Burke, who works at Ryerson University in Toronto, leading a ministry called Lifeline; Trevor Gingrich from Humber College, leading there in Toronto at a ministry called The Embassy, and Adam Gilfillan, NextGen High School Campus communicator, who travels all over encouraging high school students. He works with the next gen. We talk about discipleship. They are all Mission Canada workers and NextGen is one of the five priorities that Mission Canada works with. Mission Canada also does cultural language groups ministry, Indigenous Canadian ministry, Quebe and Francophone Canada, as well as working in our urban centers. I talked with David, Trevor and Adam about some important things as it relates to discipleship.
I want you to know these guys are practitioners. They are doing this every day and I asked them when do you think the discipleship process starts and how does it look for you? How has Covid changed that? And what are you thinking about these days as it relates to the future of the ministry you are engaged in? There is some great content and insight and it’s coming up right now.
Q. Thanks, guys, for jumping on today. I’m so happy to have you here. We’re going to talk about discipleship and the next generation.
David, why don’t we start with you? Tell us about your ministry with Mission Canada and why it’s such a good fit for you.
David Burke:
A. That’s a great question. I have this incredible privilege of being able to pastor students at Ryerson University in Toronto. Mission Canada has been a phenomenal fit for me because it has provided me an accountability structure and a support system to provide legs to the dream that God placed in my heart. So Mission Canada, when I came to them with my dream, they didn’t try to fit it into something. They just said: “Okay, how can we help you do this? How can we support what God has placed in your heart?” So they really allowed Lifeline, which is the campus church that I pastor, to be as customized as it needed to be for my specific context. I had real freedom essentially to be able to be and do what God has called me to be and providing support and accountability. So Mission Canada has been invaluable to me in that sense.
Q. We really love Mission Canada and what Brian and the team are doing. Thanks, David, for jumping on today.
Trevor, why don’t you share a little bit with us, why Mission Canada is such a good fit for you and maybe what your ministry is at Humber?
Trevor Gingrich:
A. Thanks, Paul. I pastor a campus ministry at Humber College in Toronto. I’ll start with a bit of back story. When I went to Bible College I felt called to ministry. I was always drawn to the missions program. At that time there was a Mission B.Th. you could go through where you basically trained to be a career missionary overseas. I’m all about overseas missions, International Missions. In fact, I sit on the District’s Missions Committee and I am privileged to do that. I’m a champion for that.
But for me and the way that I felt called was very much just kind of looking around me and saying to myself, man, there is so much work to be done right here. I felt as if God was calling me to stick around. Anyway, I went through ministry, became a youth pastor, etc., really enjoyed my time doing that. But eventually I caught wind of Mission Canada and – long story short – it was like okay. Let me get this straight. You’re going to back me as I walk into a secular college-university and try to plant something? Game on! Awesome. So just like David, Mission Canada and the team members have been absolutely invaluable to me and their constant support and encouragement and wisdom and coaching along the way. We are sent to missional gaps, places and pockets of people in communities that don’t really ---
I mean, the gospel has not really made as much a dent as we would like it to. So it is just an amazing thing to be part of. I’m really thankful.
Q. Colleges and campuses; that’s a big deal. And of course the next generation.
Adam, you spend a lot of time with teenagers. You were a youth pastor for many years and took the leap to Mission Canada. Tell us what you do and why it’s such a good fit.
Adam Gilfillan:
A. As you said, I am a Mission Canada worker with a focus on high school campuses across the country. My role on the surface is to be more of a motivational speaker in high schools as they don’t really welcome very many preachers into high school campuses. My role would be to go in there as a motivational speaker. But underneath that surface level it’s more about relationship building not just even with students because it is kind of difficult to build relationships with students who I really have no connection to because they sometimes live in a different province, they have no connection with church whatsoever so to stay in contact with them would be difficult. But it has been through some of the relationships with teachers and administration.
So on my end one of the schools I have been active in, not just as a speaker but as somebody who has been able to go in and help teach drama class and help be a part of some recording things is my high school. I went back to my old high school on the south shore of Montreal. So I’ve been building relationships with some of their staff. It’s gone down a pretty awesome road in that sense. So for me speaking publicly is great but it’s that relationship thing that allows me to influence not just students but the people who are also influencing students in the schools.
For me I was really thankful for Mission Canada and what they have allowed me to do. As you said, I was a youth pastor for a few years. I was eight years here in Ottawa. Previous to that I was three and one-half years at a church in Montreal. I took the leap to become a full-time communicator. I wanted to be an evangelist but I still had a real heart for high schools. So as I do Mission Canada work, what it has allowed me to do is stay true to my passion which is to bring change through communication. So they have allowed me that opportunity both in schools and also on the side as an evangelist at conferences, camps, retreats and all that kind of stuff.
Q. For those who are unfamiliar with Mission Canada and Trevor made allusion to it, is that really Mission Canada is about filling the five gaps. I don’t have time to go through all of them. But one of the big ones was next gen. That’s what we’re talking about today as it relates to discipleship. Jesus gives us this Great Commission, saying go into all the world and make disciples. He didn’t tell us to necessarily plant churches although that is an outflow of that. He didn’t tell us to do a lot of maybe the programs, but they are all tools that build towards this one big thought: we are about making disciples. And we have to be thinking about the next gen.
So Trevor, we are going to throw this next question to you as it relates to making disciples of the next generation. When do you think the discipleship process starts and then how does that process look for you in your current context of ministry?
Trevor Gingrich:
A. Sure. Yes. Ministry at Humber is really kind of interesting because one of the reasons why I chose eventually to join up with Mission Canada is I really valued an opportunity to speak into outsiders, those who are outside of the Christian faith. So what we have at Humber is very much, like on a Monday night for example, we meet in this massive very open air sort of context in the Student Center. It’s actually the school’s cafeteria. It’s kind of a “cafegymnatorium” and it is full of people who are scarfing down pizza and doing homework or whatever they’re doing, while the service is in session. So while we’re teaching and worshipping and all that stuff there are all kinds of people who are outside the Christian faith who are listening in all at the same time.
That’s an amazing opportunity. So when I think about discipleship and things of that nature and what we do at Humber ---
What I’m often trying to do, especially with the teaching and the music and discussions and everything else we do because we’re so public, is I realize I have a keen sense that I’m speaking to those who have either no history or meaningful connection with the Christian church, or very little, so I have to try to frame the gospel and what it means to follow Jesus in a way that they would understand. So I think discipleship starts in my context, that’s the person I’m talking to, I’m talking to the person often addressing people who are outside of faith and trying to help them understand what this is all about and why you would ever be interested in it. Who is this Jesus person anyway? I thought he was just legendary. He’s a real guy? You mean there’s history behind this? And from there we move on to Christian apologetics and other ways and means of helping students understand that actually there is a lot here when it comes to the Christian faith and they may want to explore some of those deep-seated questions rolling around in your soul.
I don’t know if that answers your question very well, Paul.
Q. Well, it just reminds me how much fun it is to talk to someone who has questions.
A. Yes.
Q. Just to be around people that don’t think like me, don’t act like me, don’t hold the same values as me and they’ve got questions about the man named Jesus. Or they have questions about why I do what I do, how I think, what I think. I think you are right. I think people start the discipleship process early. I love that open-air idea where they can be a part of it but not really. That’s great.
A. One thing, if I can add this real quick, is that one sort of guiding ethic we have at The Embassy is that you can belong before you believe. It’s the idea that you are welcome. We say this all the time and it is also core to the way David and Giselle do things at Lifeline as well. But it’s the idea ---
We have students in our community who come on Monday nights and engage in discussions. They are very much a part of the life of the community but they are not yet Christian. They are not necessarily there yet. That’s okay because we’re trying to give them a place where they can belong and journey and journey until they reach the point. So if we can move students from zero to one, that’s a win. If we can move students from zero to ten, that’s a win, too. But really it depends on their own journey and where God is taking them.
Q. Yes, we have to think of discipleship as a journey, not a destination.
A. Yes. Exactly.
Q. Absolutely. Trevor, something similar. I know you have a similar context. You are planting a church on campus. When do you see the discipleship process starting for your context and what does it look like for you?
Trevor Gingrich:
A. That’s a fantastic question. Ryerson is a beautiful incredible university that is very anti-Christian but not anti-Jesus. So Ryerson has very clear ideas of what it thinks Christianity is. Because Ryerson is at Yonge and Dundas most Ryerson students’ first exposure to alleged Christianity every morning as they walk out of Dundas Station is the street preachers that are there telling them they are going to burn in Hell forever. So when we get a chance to meet them later on that day we’re having to undo their preconceived notions of what Christianity is.
So in our mind the discipleship process begins there, trying to undo some of these ---
Well, Christianity is this. No. Jesus never said that. Well ---
No, actually, that’s not who Jesus is. That’s not what he taught. So it’s so much fun. It’s such a beautiful adventure. One of the ways that we have been doing that since we started is we have something called “Tough Questions Tuesday” where we invite students to ask questions on anything from sex to scripture, relationships, drugs, alcohol, any topic. We open it up for discussion. So we’ll have students who are atheists, agnostics, strong Christians, Buddhists, etc., all engaging in this discussion. At the end of every question we close it off with what the Bible says about this specific topic. It’s so cool to see people’s faces change when they realize what they think the Bible says about something is not necessarily actually what it does. So again, trying to reframe the conversation and actually encouraging doubt.
We have students who come from a Christian background and they timidly submit these questions and they’ll say they have never been able to talk about this before. But working through this issue or this doubt has helped strengthen my faith. So as far as discipleship goes, they are taking a massive leap forward when something that was slowly eating away at them – doubt – we actually air it out. We stretch their faith in a safe atmosphere.
I do believe the discipleship process begins before they actually know Jesus. And like David said, we want them to be family first. We welcome prodigal sons and daughters home. And then it’s like they reach a point where they realize they are home. They’ve been in the house for a while and not even realized, oh my, this is where I was supposed to be. I just love that.
Q. There’s so much stuff Trevor that we could drill down on, the aspect of having to undo some preconceived ideas about Christianity. We seem to think a post Christian context has no idea of what Christianity is. But media, you know ---
I’m sure people who love Jesus but are doing it the wrong way are not helping people move closer when you are speaking a message of condemnation. And then just that doubt piece. I think that’s a big part.
I’m sure, Adam, you run into that a lot with both those that have faith and those that are hearing the message you are sharing, maybe for the first time. Obviously you are a person who believes discipleship starts early otherwise you wouldn’t be doing what you are doing. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about in your context what the discipleship process looks like and maybe how you are partnering with churches and when you think it starts.
Adam Gilfillan:
A. Yes. Obviously my situation would be different than both Trevor and David because I don’t actually have a church campus. I’m not starting a church on high school campuses, although it might be a good idea. I would be interested in a conversation about that. That’s not what I’m doing.
A lot of times I would go in and then I would leave. So for me, my belief, like you said, before they even say yes to a relationship with Jesus, even though I haven’t been perfect at it, I love to live by the rule of revealing Him so that others can receive him. So before they ever say yes to Him, I want to model what it looks like to be a follower of Jesus. Right? I think that’s a huge part of the discipleship process, the making of disciples as Christians, to them saying yes to Jesus. So a lot for me is based on the relationship.
To give an example, one of the teachers that I have invested my life into was my drama teacher twenty years ago. We still have conversations today. She’s not a Christian. But over the course of our friendship she has made statements like “I’m not saying I’m going to become a nun” – remember, Catholic background in Quebec – but she says “my opinion of God has changed”. She has said in our journey and our friendship she has made statements like “If pastors were like you when I was growing up, maybe my life would look different.” This same teacher, not a Christian, knows who I am, who knows what I want to do, has actually gone on my behalf without me even asking, to the administration at her school and said we should hire him as an on campus ---
She says we can’t call you a pastor but we would love to have someone like you here because our students need someone they can talk to and go to.
We’ve had conversations like, Adam, my marriage is struggling. I don’t want it to end in divorce. Can you pray for me? These are the conversations. So for me my whole thing is I want to reveal who God is to me, what my relationship to Christ is and I want to be as authentic as possible, letting them know. Look, being a Christian doesn’t mean life is easy. It means that even though we go through difficult times we still have someone who walks through the difficult times with us. So I try to model what it looks like to be a follower so they are fully prepared so when they say yes they know what to expect.
Q. That’s so important. Again, I love that idea of revealing before they receive. I’ve seen that.
Adam, I don’t know if you know this but I used to be a campus pastor at a Christian school and did the high school chapels every week. Again, I think because you’re Christian, Christian school, everyone is super interested and the chapels are great. In some ways it was harder. It was almost like they were inoculated, just had enough of Jesus for them not to actually be effected in some ways. There were some that obviously were passionate followers of Jesus and had great families and great churches that were supporting that. But obviously, Adam we’ll start with you for this question because things have changed. Discipleship I’m sure has changed.
Although for you I’m sure you’ve been probably on, like you were online right away. I know kids hit you up on your social media and you are asking questions and they are giving you feedback and you are starting conversations through digital. So outside of you actually being in schools and engaging with students, how has Covid changed how you approach discipleship now?
Adam Gilfillan:
A. I think some of it stays the same for me because I have understood that social media is where kids are. It has caused me to have to change a few things because now you are not able to have conversations in front of an audience in a school setting where they are kind of forced to listen to you. You are now praying and hoping that some student catches your social media page and they see something and it starts questions.
I’ve asked questions along the way like if you could go back to or ask your future self about your life, what would you want to know? I’ve had questions from students who are not Christians respond to me with “I want to know if I’m happy”, “I want to know am I lonely”, “Do I find somebody?” They want to know all of these things. So for me it is starting through conversations but it is in a different format. Sure I would love to be able to communicate in different ways. I like being kind of funny at times and that kind of stuff. But to neglect the power that social media can have would do myself a disservice and there are plenty of students who may never have me in their school or at their retreats or campuses or their churches, but there’s an opportunity for them to cross my social media page. So it’s really about, for me, putting out the content that I would put out in an assembly digitally that students can now sit back and chew on that for a bit and then go through dialogue.
Just to go back to a previous thing you said that I try to do especially with Christian kids who have heard me at their retreats, one of the things is as a Mission Canada worker, I’m not their pastor and I always tell students I’m going to help you wherever I can. I’m going to listen to what questions you may have. But I want you to know, especially if you are a Christian, I am going to point you back to your youth pastor because I want youth pastors to know that we all have this incredible role together to see these kids not just become Christians at a retreat but people who are also leading their friends to Christ and maybe signing up for Mission Canada in the future! So it’s a project for me. I’m passionate about working with everybody. So digitally is very key for me.
Q. Digital is going to be a huge part of our future. Churches and youth groups and youth pastors are realizing that now more than ever. Covid has really changed that.
Just getting back to that catalytic aspect of a guest speaker, you know, I’ve been the guest speaker quite a bit. You go in and pour your heart out. But really, you know, it’s the follow-up. It’s the connection after the retreat. It’s the connection that really ---
I remember I took some kids to YC and, you know, back in Alberta we had YC here. It was a large gathering and one of the speakers got up and just said: Jesus loves you, Jesus loves you and my whole youth group stood for salvation. I felt like ---
But what it was for them was they had heard it, they had heard it, they had heard it and then they got it. Sometimes a guest speaker or the right post or a conversation ---
I have had conversations through Facebook Messenger with people sharing Jesus with them. It all matters and it is all building towards that day when hopefully they will all receive Jesus as the Lord and personal Saviour. So I love that. We can’t ignore the digital.
Trevor, I know things have changed for you this fall. We were talking about it offline. We are not sure if Humber is going to be back or hardly any students are coming back. How have you guys made the adjustment for discipleship now, moving forward and into the fall?
Trevor Gingrich:
A. Humber, like many schools in Ontario, is going to be largely shut down. Courses and programs are going to be about 90% online, which means that the only time a student may be on campus is to train on a piece of equipment they need in order to complete their program. And they are asked to leave as soon as they are done. So there really is no opportunity here in Ontario anyway, to build any kind of in-person sort of community which has a serious downside. So the challenges are huge.
At the same time what we have noticed, what we did we used from March up until now as a test phase. Let’s see what’s possible. What can we do in this season? That has been really helpful because we learned a little bit about what can work and what will not work. We were throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.
And we’ve noticed a couple of things. I feel like there’s pros and cons to this whole situation. Some of the pros are, first of all, I think all of us around this table are super lucky to work with the next generation because there is no learning curve. I know some churches having to adjust to online ministry has been a bear. I totally get that. Lucky for us it isn’t so I try not to complain. There’s no learning curve. They all get it. They use their smartphones for everything. So it’s fine.
Also I’ve noticed and I’m curious if the others around the table have noticed this too, in our conversations online, our large group and our small group conversations, conversations go deep and they go deep very quickly. It’s really kind of interesting. For example, the introverts in the community ---
We have discussions every Monday. We’re heavy on discussions.
The introverts in the community you don’t usually hear from quite as much. But oh my goodness, now it’s a different situation. It might just be a level of loneliness everyone is experiencing and everyone is thirsting for real friendship. But at the same time it has given the introverts and the quieter ones a real voice. They seem more willing than ever to share and to share deep things about what is going on in their lives. So discussions have been amazing. I got a call once and I went upstairs to Becky and I told her I think I had the most incredible discussion with young adults I have ever had and it happened online. It was one of those moments when like wow, we talked a lot about a lot and it was very, very good. So definitely a pro. And also, just more platforms. I mean we have learned through this season that we have tools available to us that we did not know we had and now we do and we’re going to leverage them going forward. So online meetings are ---
There’s no substitute for being in person. We get that. We understand that. It is part of our DNA, too. However, just the opportunities we have to meet online and to use platforms like Youtube that we weren’t really using before, and Instagram, etc. There are more opportunities than ever to engage with students online. It is actually sort of overwhelming to just learn about all this stuff and try to figure out what channels do we choose. It’s a matter of trying to choose which ones. So there is definitely no lack of opportunity to engage with students, not at this point. There’s actually all kinds and it is just a matter of us learning those platforms and being willing to adjust and learning to preach to cameras, which I hate, etc. But we’ll get there.
Q. So what are the cons? You said there were some pros. What are the cons?
A. I think the cons are probably, like anybody listening to this podcast will probably relate to, like I said, there is no substitute for ---
I never thought that showing up to a place and being able to stand beside a fellow believer who I may know or not know very well and just be able to worship alongside them, I never thought that was a luxury. I never saw that as something that would ever be taken away from me.
Q. Interesting.
A. Now it has. So I realized how --- (makes a sound of sucking in his breath)
That is tough. So not having our students together in community, worshipping together, learning together, discussing together in person, it’s tough. We can’t wait until we can go back to that. But in the meantime there are good tools to use and there are all kinds of opportunities so we’re going to make the very best of it.
Q. That’s great. That’s really good. I feel like in this season we all need a marketing master’s degree on how to do it. There’s so much online now.
A. Seriously.
Q. I don’t know if you’ve jumped on Facebook on Sunday mornings, but you can find it all. We’re all there. We are all doing our thing and I love it. But how do you get your voice out there?
David, I’m sure that’s a challenge at Ryerson. There’s lots of stuff going on in downtown Toronto all the time. So how have you guys made the adjustment to discipleship and how does that look moving forward since Covid-19?
David Burke:
A. In essence, attention is the new currency. Right? That’s what we’re all vying for, every company, every Youtuber, every social media influencer, every church, everyone is vying for the same amount of finite attention. That’s why it is monetized. So to your point, every church going live on Sunday mornings ---
We realize that a student can connect with Lifeline during our services, or they can watch the livestream of Elevation Church or Hillsong or any number of churches that have a production value five hundred times what we have. They have boom cameras, drones and atmospherics and all this stuff, which is wonderful. So we had to make the decision really early on to not try and replicate what we’re not but to lean into who we actually are.
Q. That’s good.
A. What can Lifeline bring to the table? Why were students coming to Lifeline before Covid? We really whittled it down to what we’re called to do is facilitate connection, connection to God and connection to one another. Students are desperate. Connection to one another is usually the gateway. That’s why they come because they are looking to identify with a community. So as soon as Covid hit we moved our services from in-person to Instagram Live. We figured they are already on Instagram scrolling so why not just do our service there. So we added our worship leader leading from his home remotely in Scarborough and I preached a message from my home here and we moved our Bible studies onto Zoom. Honestly, I feel the hero in this last season for us has been Facetime. It has really enabled us to have that one-on-one or that small group deep connection. Like Trevor mentioned, we have had more students during Covid than ever before actually reach out to us to ask for weekly discipleship.
Q. Wow.
A. They come to us and they’re like I need accountability. We had one student who was like I need to repent. So it’s almost as if Covid has peeled back all these layers and like Trevor said, conversations begin and it’s like they are just pouring out their hearts. I don’t think Covid has necessarily created new problems in our lives so much as it has caused the ones that were already there to bubble to the surface. All this time for thinking and to contemplate, God has been doing incredible work in the lives of students in and through that.
Q. Interesting.
A. So we’re just really trying to play to our strengths and not try and be what we’re not and not trying to replicate something we never will be able to. But to be this place, this church that facilitates connection.
Q. That’s great. I am going to throw a question in to all three of you off script. I know I sent you the questions ahead of time.
How are you tracking the discipleship process for people in this time? Obviously there is a progression that is happening. How are you doing that? Again, maybe it’s the Facetime. Maybe David you want to jump in first. Maybe it’s the Facetime connection where it’s like you are checking in regularly. There’s accountability. You are doing life together. But how are you tracking it and how are you keeping track of the people? How is that happening? Because again obviously all campuses change every three or four years, you know, with whole new groups in. How are you guys tracking that in this season?
David Burke:
A. Yes. That is such a good question. We, as I know we all do, are big believers in making disciples who make disciples who make disciples who make disciples. So we early on formed a student leadership team. We try to stretch them. We try to push them to go just a little bit further and lead just a little bit more and do something that they’re not as comfortable with.
Before Covid we had assigned specific students to specific leaders. We saw okay, this leader is connecting well with these five or ten students so we said that’s going to be your group. You are going to focus on them. You’re going to keep tabs on them. When you are together in person you are going to focus your attention on them. So moving into online it has just become a matter of encouraging and kind of pushing them to continue that discipleship. So it has been really cool to see them, you know, organizing all on their own. For Facetime we’re going to read scripture together. Facetime for my little group we’re going to pray together. We’re going to have brunch together. We are all going to eat brunch at the same time, trying to maintain that connection.
One of the things that God really encouraged me with a number of years ago is I really struggled with metrics. How do we measure success? One of the things I felt like God really spoke to me is the story of Ananias. There is this dude before the dude who changes the world. Right? Ananias prayed for Saul and the scales fell off Saul’s eyes. Saul became Paul and Paul went and changed the world. We never talk about Ananias. Everyone wants to be the person on the stage speaking to sixty thousand. Right? They want to be the Mother Teresa, the Steven Furtick, the Billy Graham, etc. But we often overlook the person who led that person to Jesus. So that’s how I try and live my ministry. I felt like God was saying spend time looking for Paul. So we encourage our leaders to do the same thing. Pay attention to the ones. Look for that Saul that God is actually ready to transform them into a Paul. Take joy in that one-on-one connection.
Q. It’s not my quote but I’ve said it. I don’t even know where it came from. But I love it and I repeat it so maybe people think it’s me. But anyways. The future of the PAOC is in the harvest. Our best church planters, our best Mission Canada workers, our best pastors, our best missionaries, our best leaders, our best doctors, our best, our best ---
The future is in the harvest. I always said the future is in the next generation and that is partially true. But when you think about who is in the church and who is not in the church, the future is actually out there. So I love that. David, great thought.
Trevor, do you have any thoughts about metrics and counting and discipleship and how you are tracking with people?
Trevor Gingrich:
A. Yes. The whole thing about campus ministry is what you mentioned Paul, it is a new community. It basically flips over after every three or four years in my context. So what happens is that you end up collecting alumni year-over-year. So we started a couple of years ago our Embassy Alumni Association, which is going pretty well. What I’m going to do, what I’m planning on doing – this is top secret ---
Q. Which you are making public on a podcast; nationally!
A. I trust you, Paul. I trust you all. They don’t know they are going to be asked this. But I’m going to be asking our alumni to really lean in this year, specifically. Because we’re online they can but also because I value these students that are ahead of the ones that we are directly in ministry to and with and so I think their voices at the table and their wisdom and just the level of maturity they bring is awesome. So we’re going to ask them to lean in and help to disciple and help care for these students, because they need care especially during this season. That’s a neat thing.
Otherwise for me it is individual by individual. I was listening to a podcast by Andy Stanley recently and it was a simple reminder talking about how as a leader in this time your presence is more important than your presentation. Another way of saying it is your voice is more important than your sermon. Just being with people and they need to know you care. They need to hear your voice. They need to. That is what is most important during this season, even more so than the words I choose. They need to hear my voice. So I’m trying my best. But I’m only one guy. It doesn’t scale that well so I need help so this is where we ask, like David mentioned, getting our leaders engaged that way caring for people specifically and also our alumni trying to get them to lean in. And then tracking with them becomes a regular sort of ---
Of course we would prefer to see them and see their faces attending on our weekly programs, etc. But we will have people following up with them and just asking questions: how are you doing? We’ve missed you, etc. We’re able to track with people along with seeing how they are. Often out of that kind of relationship and that genuine sincere expression of care, students will be honest. They will tell you where they’re at and then you’ll have an opportunity to help them along. So that’s it.
Q. Yes. That trust comes out of connection and vulnerability. Love that.
Adam, your thoughts. Do you connect with youth pastors? How are you encouraging them?
Adam Gilfillan:
A. Yes. One of the things that me travelling has allowed me to do is connect with youth pastors I never knew before when I was a youth pastor myself. It has allowed me to cross over Districts and provinces. So I stay in contact with them.
When it comes to students specifically and seeing their growth and their development it is through social media. It is a different way of seeing fruit these days. Usually we see fruit live and in person, how they are acting, how they are responding. But social media as much as we say we are able to disguise a lot of things, it also reveals a lot of things, you know.
Q. It can, yes.
A. I have challenged students in the past. You just ‘liked’ your friend’s post that talks about them getting completely hammered and they don’t remember anything about the weekend and you ‘liked’ that. So let me ask you a question. What do you like about that? What is it that made you say, hey, that’s a great thing that happened to you? When you start seeing even a small thing of hey, I probably shouldn’t like that anymore you are starting to see the fruit in their decision making. Obviously, I’m not going to be that almost forty-year-old crazy guy who’s like let me just add a bunch of high school students and follow them. But it comes through them following me because they heard me speak somewhere and just watching what happens through them talking with their youth pastors and that kind of stuff.
But I want to say this to kind of talk about what both David and Trevor said before about the services and having the big lights and the big cameras and all that kind of stuff. If I could be honest I actually think the church that will be the most successful going forward during times like this with online stuff is going to be the church who can do much more after the service is over. I know somebody who is about to launch a church online. My first question to him was: Okay, so what do you do for someone who gets saved? Right. If it is just about a service, if it is just about the production value, they could have watched anybody. Just point them to whatever service is out there.
Q. Yes.
A. There’s a lot of resources for that. What are you doing after they say amen? What are you doing to build relationship? What are you doing to walk them through things after the service? Sure, do I think quality of video needs to be good? Yes, please. Invest in that. But what I really believe is after the service is over and after you have broadcasted five times a day, what do you do for people? I think that is going to be the biggest thing going forward.
Q. It’s the follow-up. It’s the buy now button. Once they hit buy now, what happens? What happens when they are engaged and they have a question? We can’t just be a push content organization where we are just pushing content, pushing content. There needs to be an opportunity for conversation.
Go ahead Adam.
A. It needs to be more than I got them saved and I got them tithing. It needs to be what is the relationship that is being built online. I’m not saying that lay pastors have to be that person but I do think we as churches, we as Christians, need to be putting things in place that do engage after the service and even after they have accepted Christ.
Q. And especially if you have engaged them digitally. There needs to be a way to engage them again.
A. 100%.
Q. Until you can open up your doors, until you can have gatherings or small groups or watch parties to invite them to. Yes. That is a great thought.
All right. Last question. Maybe David we’ll start with you. What are you thinking about these days as it relates to the future of the ministry you are engaged in? What are the things rolling around in your head as you think about Ryerson?
David Burke:
A. Yes. So when Covid started we had no idea how long this was going to go for so it has already well exceeded what I was ever expecting. We’re not sure when things are going to be back to normal where we’re able to have services in person. Being that for the next while it is online, we’ve been asking ourselves what is it that students are consuming? Where are they spending their time? Students, as we talk to them, they spend more time on Youtube than ---
Like some of them don’t even watch Netflix or Disney Plus or Hulu or Amazon Prime. They’re like Youtube. So many of them will ---
Q. Interesting.
A. They are Youtubers who will talk for an hour or two hours on whatever, on their day. Some of them broke our heart. They were sharing that they will watch videos where people will prepare dinner, sit and eat dinner in front of the camera in silence and they watch these videos so they don’t feel as alone.
So one of the things as we look to the future is how do we create content that is in the format that they are used to consuming, not how do we do church online but how do we do online church? How do we be the church online? So we’re trying to figure out ways of how can we present a sermon like a Youtuber would instead of Bible, podium, etc., etc., how can we speak more in a way that they’re used to.
Q. That’s great.
A. How can we present that message of Jesus in a culturally relevant way online? That’s one of the things we’ve been thinking about as far as this fall, the future, and again trying to use that to bring students into the family for those one-on-one connections or our Bible studies or weekly one-on-one discipleship, etc.
Q. Yes. That’s something I think all churches are having to wrestle with because guys like Andy Stanley said we’re not having any in-person gatherings until the beginning of 2021. They have just gone out and said it. I think there is a very real possibility that we will be rolling into 2021 without even having our full services and all the restrictions eased. I think we’re in this for a little bit. So what does it look like?
I’ve coached churches and pastors the same exact way you are thinking that the online audience wants something different than just a reproduction of the Sunday morning experience. What are they consuming? I love that. Thank you, David, for sharing.
Trevor, what is rolling around in your head these days as you think about the future at Humber?
Trevor Gingrich:
A. I was wondering if we could come back to me in about a year. (Laughter) I would have a better answer. I’m in the same place as David. I am learning a ton right now about all of this and trying to figure out what the future looks like.
One thing I know I have been challenged on is that so many of us are used to looking out and we always say that numbers don’t matter, numbers aren’t the main thing, but the reality is even for me looking out and seeing bodies on chairs is often the metric I use to determine my reach and sort of how I’m executing my calling and ministry, etc. But the reality is that is not true. It is certainly not true right now. And in the future there may be other ---
Well, we know there are other ways of reaching people that we have used before and I have to be okay with that. I have to be okay with the fact that if numbers begin to dwindle but we’re having a really good online reach, I’ve got to switch my thinking a little bit that way, you know. Because I’m just so used to okay, how the ministry looks at Humber. It is like putting people in rooms and putting people in chairs and I love seeing that and I love in-person ministry so I’m feeling challenged lately because I’m realizing that, oh my goodness, there are all kinds of opportunities for reach and even discipleship online, etc. But I have to be okay to make that switch in my head and heart and realize that look, the way that ministry has looked for the past twelve years may look a little different going forward and I’ve got to be okay with that.
Q. It may look a little different? (Laughter)
A. Sorry, that’s my hesitation you’re hearing. Come back to me in a year.
Q. Yes. Maybe we should come back to it in a year and see how our predictions panned out. I love what you said though. If you don’t position yourself as a learner in this season you are going to be in trouble.
A. Totally. Totally.
Q. Just a side note. Adam, we’ll get to you in just a second. On a call, Leonard Sweet was talking. I don’t know if you know that name but he’s a bit of a futurist, thinking through the future of the church. He talked about how important “CQ”: Content Quotient is going to be a leadership thing where you have to be able to understand the context you are in and then shift and adjust to that, opposed to us dictating the context.
A. Totally.
Q. So we have to be learners. We have to be thinking contextually because if everyone is on Youtube then don’t be putting it on Twitter. Again, just simple things. We have to be a learner.
Adam, you are living in this world. Things are shifting. You don’t get to communicate in front of people like you used to. But maybe you get to communicate to more people than you have ever would have done. Through social media, now that you’re spending more time there, how do you see it shifting and changing for you in the future?
Adam Gilfillan:
A. I have realized for a while, even before everything kind of happened, Youtube was going to have to be the biggest transition for me, putting in some actual quality stuff. Sure, the content is what brings out the most quality but just being able to sit there and think it through and put it out there, for myself I try to use as many different platforms as possible. I’m even on the Tik-Tok thing.
Q. What’s that?
A. I’ve got people who think I’m really weird about that stuff but I’m just trying to have fun with it and trying to normalize the conversation and let people know there is a human side even to myself who has been a pastor for a good portion of his life. But Youtube is definitely the place where I see the biggest transition happening for a lot of people. For me, I’m getting ready to start something there and it is really about creating conversations. You answer a question: Who are you? But doing it in a way that is welcoming to people who may not believe the way I believe.
I started a podcast that was all about people telling their story. It just so happened that most of the people I interviewed were Christians. But when I was asking certain questions I wanted to know, for someone who doesn’t believe what you believe, what advice would you give them, right from the person who believes that God heals, who believes when it comes to mental health that we can go to God, but there’s more to it than that, so what would you tell someone who doesn’t believe what you believe, what advice would you give? For me it’s about bridging that gap between what we believe as Christians and what others would not believe.
For example, I can go onto Youtube right now and search out David and Kristen. It’s a great Youtube channel you could go and watch. I subscribe to it and there are conversations that take place. Right? That’s what I think as a church, yes, your services but what are we doing on social media to create conversations that starts some dialogue not just you put out all this information but are you welcoming the content back to you?
Q. And making it easy for people to give you feedback. They don’t have to go looking for any email address. They don’t have to look for ---
Just make it easy and then when you say you are asking for feedback, thank them for it. Just simple little things.
Conversation is going to look a lot different in the future. It could be just a lot of texting, a lot of conversation and comments on Facebook and Youtube. We know how some of those can spiral out of control so you have to be careful. But man, there is just so much changing.
I’m reading some stuff on white water change, opposed to calm water change, where white water is always disruptive. It is continually disruptive and it has no real clear end to the disruption and you have to be flexible. You have to be adaptable and I’m hearing that from you guys.
Thanks for jumping on today. You are doing a great job. You care about the next generation. That is a big, big part of my heart. I think what you’re doing is fantastic. So thanks for doing it. Thanks for jumping on today. I so appreciate it.
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