In this episode we cover a lot of ground with Ben talking about leading through this pandemic being healthy as a leader. We also talk about how to lead staff through uncertainty, the future of digital church and Ben shares at the end some encouragement every leader needs to hear. Check it out!
In this episode we cover a lot of ground with Ben talking about leading through this pandemic being healthy as a leader. We also talk about how to lead staff through uncertainty, the future of digital church and Ben shares at the end some encouragement every leader needs to hear. Check it out!
Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple making communities across Canada. Hi there, welcome to the Multiply Network. My name is Paul Fraser. So glad you tuned in today. And before I introduce our guest, I'm excited to share a resource that we launched last month. It's a website called PAOCMultiply.com. And on there you'll find a lot of video resources for leaders, church planters, multipliers, disciple makers, and we're excited to give that to you. So if you're interested in some free resources, go check out PAOCMultiply.com. You are going to love this interview with Ben Johnson from First Assembly Church in Calgary. He's a great friend of mine, loves church multiplication and is leading his church so well. We talk about overall health, overflowing hope and leading the church into the future. We talk about how important it is to have health on your staff. We talk about preaching topics that he's leaning into, how to keep vision in front of people, using digital church well, and in this reset, what are we going to be taking with us into the future? And then ends with some incredible encouragement for leaders. You'll want to check it all out. And it's coming up right now. Hi, Ben. Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast. Hi, Paul. So good to have you. Hey, great to be here with you,. Man. It's been a while I've been trying to get you on here for a little bit. And not that you've been too busy, but I've just forgotten to ask to be honest.(Laughter)(Laughter) Well, timing is everything. Here we are. Timing is everything and here we are, in a pandemic and you're leading so well. And so, we had a conversation a couple of weeks ago that I thought was very helpful for me. I wanted to you to kind of reiterate some of those things as it relates to health as a leader. And I want to I want you to maybe talk to just start off the podcast a little bit about how important, like, all areas of your life that are healthy - How important that is. And maybe what are some things you're doing to just kind of encourage that? Yeah, yeah, I remember our conversation, Paul, and we were just talking about, you know, how are we making our way through this crazy pandemic season? And it's been unique. And is everyone saying unprecedented. And a lot of stresses with it, right, and a lot of things that none of us have really faced before in the leadership, in life. I mean, the encouraging thing is we're all going through it together. But it hits us at different ways. And even in ministry, we were talking about it in that context, and pastoring. Nobody, you know, took a class Pastoring a Pandemic. And so (laughter) it's all new for all of us, right? It's true! But I think one of the things I was you were saying, how are you doing and how are you making your way through this season? And my answer to you is just I'm trying to stay as healthy as possible. Because, you know, the basic thought is, you know, if I'm healthy, then everything else flows from that. So my my best gift to you, my best gift to our church, my best gift to my family is a healthy me. And so really trying to just stay in that place and just really through rest and whatever. So let's try to try to keep on top of it. And as you think about, you know, you mentioned if I'm staying healthy-- I know you're exercising, you're focusing on rest. I think, you were talking a little bit about even diet. You're just kind of like, I need to just be eating things that are going to help me physically. And so, you know, just sharing, like, if I'm at my best, I'm at I'm good for my family, the church. But we also talked about staffing and how important it is in this season for a lead pastor- and maybe you're lead pastor out there that has some staff - What are some things you're doing with your staff to keep them encouraged and keep them healthy? Yeah, and like I said, everybody's going through it right, and everybody's going through it in a different way and from a different perspective. But I think the big thing with the staff is obviously we stay connected every week. And right now in this season, we've moved away from in-person meetings, which we were doing over the summer months, back onto Zoom calls. But really just trying to stay connected. Keeping the meetings focused. And we always spend some time in prayer. And I think that's been one of the things that has been helpful, is just taking time to pray with each other throughout the week. And flexibility. You know, I think we're all, you know, we all have jobs and we all have goals and things that we're working on moving the ministry forward, but just really trying to obviously allow for flexibility. Encouraging people to take their days off or I'll check up on them, make sure they are taking actual vacation. That's good. But yeah, just like just praying together and learning together and making that a key part of our weekly connection. Yeah. What's some of the feedback you're hearing from the staff? Like, what are they what are they liking about some of those things that you're doing? What are they --- What are maybe you even noticing in their lives by doing these things? Yeah. Well, I think one of the things -- I mean, we've been doing this for a while, but really trying to encourage everybody to take a Sabbath. And typically the way that we roll our staff out is, I just came to the point after being pastor here for a year or two and thinking, well, Sunday is such a big day. So I've just said Sunday is a workday. Yeah. And and we just, you know, for the most part, most of the staff will take Friday as the Sabbath. So we really roll our ministry and and everything that we do throughout the week and make sure that we take that day. And I think that flexibility and, you know, that kind of planning really has been helpful for people. You know, sometimes there's conferences and there's other things that take place, but I think it's really about planning, planning your rest and trying to catch your breath. You know, work hard and make sure your planning your rest. I actually think that's a super great thought. You've got to plan your rest because it's not going to accidentally happen. Right? You actually have to schedule it. Actually, and I think a lot of times-- yeah, a lot of times we you know, we're trying to rest after our work. But rather we should rest and then work from a place of rest if we can get on top of it that way. Yeah, no, that's fantastic. So we think about your church. Obviously, First Assembly in Calgary is, you know, one of our larger churches. And so with that also comes with, you know, it's beautiful. It's amazing, but lots of complexity. You're speaking to people who have lost their jobs. Maybe people have lost some loved ones in covid, who are struggling in work, mental health. All of these crises are happening. And there you are. You know, you show up Sunday morning on their video screens, sometimes in person. What are some of the things some of the things, some of the themes may you're preaching on these days? I know there's lots of communicators that are listening to the podcast, maybe looking for ideas, maybe some affirmation on what they're already doing. What are some of the things you're doing, Ben? Well, I think when everything kind of hit with the pandemic, you know, almost a year ago now, it's hard to believe. But I think, you know, our team, we just rallied and, you know, we're like, what do we need to focus on? And I think out of that came our very first focus, which was really back to the basics. And we went back to the Book of Acts and what is the church? And really trying to understand what it was that God was calling us to and how we can be the church without gathering like we used to gather. And even though we are gathering again, it's a lot different than what we've been used to. And so we focused on that. And then we went to, you know, some different themes over the summer. And really, by the time we got to the fall, I just really began to feel like like my team was saying, well, what's our next series? And I literally just felt like I was supposed to just seek the Lord, kind of week by week. And so we did that for a number of weeks over this like late summer and early fall. And it was actually a really powerful time with the church and for the church. And I think it was just really trying to respond to bringing encouragement to the people and just really seeking God every week for a word. And then that kind of led us into another series where we focused on renewal and revival. And, we've gone through recently, you know, spiritual disciplines at the beginning of this year. And just really trying to seek God for what is what is he saying and how do we respond to, like you said, all the challenges in the crisis that are happening and so many people's lives. But I think the goal is really just to bring encouragement and bring hope and bring faith. And we do sense God really helping us and strengthening us as we focus on some of these themes. Yeah, and you continue to speak on hope, which is something that is in short supply these days. You know, you think of current events happening in Canada, around the world, even, you know, at this point at the recording of this podcast, we're struggling whether or not to know we're going to have some vaccines, and the hope of the vaccines, and we might not get them. And now there's new variants and all these things. People are desperately looking for hope. Why don't you just speak to that quickly? Yeah, exactly, and I think, you know, we can obviously look to the vaccines and some of these things are hopeful and I think there's so much controversy and, you know, people have different opinions. And I think pastoring is so challenging in this season. Everybody who's listening to this, who's pastoring gets that, where there's a million opinions. Everybody's got a different perspective. And I think just really keeping focused on scripture and on hope, the hope there is in Christ and, you know, themes like perseverance and themes like, you know, focusing on what God is doing now and and what he wants to do in the future. And I think there's a real sense of what God is preparing in us now. He's preparing us for for what is to come. And it's good. And and I believe that there are some really significantly exciting and good days that are yet ahead. But I think let's not miss what God is doing even now, and we can find hope and in the challenge and in the trials. Right. Right, right. No, I, I totally agree. And obviously we have the greatest hope and, you know, to tell the the greatest story ever, the story of Christ is so incredibly important. And just even if I can go back to that other thought you talked about, you know, just kind of keeping in step with the Spirit. And you're not going to know exactly what to do. One of the things that I think a lot of our leaders are struggling with is decision fatigue, where it's just this constant change. Like they could be planning for an in-person person gathering. And by Wednesday, you know on a Monday. By Wednesday, it's off. By Saturday, it's back on. And then Sunday morning something happens and it has to be canceled. And it's like all these decisions. I think keeping in step with the Spirit now makes -- like I mean, it's all it's always made sense, but it makes so much more sense in seasons of uncertainty. And we don't know where this ends up. I mean, you know, maybe just quickly talk to leaders out there about maybe decision fatigue and maybe some of the things you're doing to help maybe mitigate that. And maybe, you know, obviously following the Spirit is one of them. But what else? Yeah, I mean, it really is one of the biggest challenges during this time is responding. Because as leaders we like to to plan and be proactive and, you know, set goals. And I think we just have to hold everything much lighter and much looser. Where, we're going to plan this for now. I guess I would just encourage people just to keep planning. And, you know, we meet with our team and we're just like, OK, in a perfect world, once covids over, like, we got to keep planning and we've got to stay in that and knowing that we can adjust along the way. And I think with that mindset, it's really helped us, rather than just throwing up our hands and saying, oh, well, I guess it's covid we can't do anything. So we're still talking vision. We're still talking, you know, community groups. And sure, we might have to do things differently, but how can we still engage leaders and how can we keep multiplying? And so I think we have to realize that this storm will end and it is a season that we're in. But we have to keep vision and ministry moving forward and and trust that, you know, that things are going to, I guess, normalize at some point. But in the middle of it all, just trusting the Lord in the middle of the storm, that he is with us. And trying to keep moving things forward at the same time, because I think if we lose that vision, we begin to lose hope and and we don't really see our opportunity to move forward like we could when we keep our eyes focused on what God is doing and what he still wanting to do. That's such great counsel and just kind of segues really good to, you know, kind of the next question I want to ask you, as it relates to keeping vision in front of people. Lots of people are just in maintenance mode or survival mode. And I would say some churches and pastors are. They're exhausted. They're like, don't talk to me about taking the next hill. You know, I'm just I'm just happy to lay down on this side of this one because it's exhausting leading in this season. But, Ben, you're doing a good job, in my opinion, of keeping vision in front of people in front of your board, in front of your staff. Any tips on how to continue to do that in this season? Yeah, and that is so important, Paul. I agree. Like, we have to keep, you know, what the Lord has called us to in front of us. And and there's still ministry that is happening. There are still people that are experiencing God or hungry for God. And as a church, we've had to -- you know, the big word everyone's using is we've had to pivot, like everybody else. But I think just telling stories of what God is doing and celebrating what is taking place. And so we've developed a ministry that we call FA Cares. That's what's come out of this season, which has been really exciting. And it's really about groceries and food boxes to our city and engaging the community at that level. So just telling stories. Not only on Sundays, but we've put together something we call Good News. And it's literally just collecting stories, just random stories of people in our church and how they are engaging mission and how they are just living out the gospel in very practical ways. And telling stories of, you know, the Calgary Dream Center and highlighting our global workers has been a big part of just keeping vision in front of people. You know, reminding people that we are on mission here in Calgary and the world. And through your continued giving and your prayers and your participation, we are celebrating what is happening globally. And there's a really neat story. Recently I shared with the congregation where before I came, the church had purchased a building in Germany and the vision was to plant churches out of Germany. And so we made an investment and with a leadership change, it didn't kind of come together. And so we ended up having a building that needed a lot of repair. And so we just sowed it into the PAOC international missions. But I got a letter just recently from the new directors. And they were telling me about how God has been, you know, using the ministry. And how it's really kind of come full circle to the original vision. And so I was able to share that story with the congregation saying, look, because we've sowed, because we've been generous, because we stepped out in faith, it didn't maybe kind of come together right away or the way that we thought it may. But look what God has done is we've continue to be faithful as we've continued to be generous. And so just telling those kinds of stories has encouraged more people to continue to stay focused on vision and where we're going as a church. Ben, I just love listening to you because you just have practical things that anybody can do. Like I know you're a high capacity leader and you're super modest and humble, so I'll brag on you. But like, I know you. We're very good friends. But I love how you give ideas that anybody could do. Like, it's not like, you have to have this certain skill set. You just really approach ministry in a really, really practical spirit-led, spirit-empowered way that that just is, you know, attainable for leaders. And so I just I don't know. I just wanted to throw that in to make us all feel awkward on the call.(laughter). Sure.(laughter) Awesome. But, yeah, I mean, God's at work, right? Of course! And it's just really trying to pause and identify. I mean, whether it's a conversation one of our staff members had with their neighbour. And so even in our staff meetings each week, you know, we take some time. It's like, what's God doing? Let's celebrate it. You know, where are we seeing the gospel, you know, effective? And, you know, what are what are we seeing in our personal lives? And I actually reached out to the staff recently and said, what are some of the stories of generosity that you guys are hearing about or seeing within our congregation? And I put a list together to share in a message, but I couldn't even fit them all in. Like I thought, if I tell all these stories, I won't have enough time. And there was so many people responding to things that God was doing. And so I think it's just pausing and saying, what are those things, trying to really work with your team to collect those stories. And as simple as somebody had a baby and they started the meal train. You know, some kids wrote some cards out for seniors at Christmas and sent them to some of the homes, you know, in the seniors who were having Christmas by themselves. Love, First Assembly. God loves you. I mean, I didn't even really know that was all happening. But these things are happening within the church. Yeah. And highlighting them does actually highlight vision. Digital church. You know, that's been something that we've all had to get used to. I know First Assembly, you know, pretty well that you guys were already there. There wasn't a super big transition. You were already online. You were already at times creating hosts to manage the chats. You were already doing that, doing a great job. What are some things maybe you're learning about digital church or, you know, putting church online? And what do you think's going to stay, you know, the same or maybe be different in the future? Yeah, it's been a real adventure, to say the least, because it's such a great opportunity. I think that's kind of the exciting adventure side of it. Like, look at this opportunity. You know, the whole world we can reach, we can impact. But then how do we do that? How do we get traction and actually people engaged and being impacted by it. So I think, you know, one thing is just the spirit of excellence and excellence doesn't mean perfection. It just means working with what you have and trying to continue to make it better. So I'm super proud of our team. They've continued just to tweak it and just to make sure that, you know, what we are putting out there is to the best of our ability, excellent and continuing to improve. And I think that we really discovered that, not that you can't do your Sundays kind of prerecorded, but what we discovered was that when we switched back to a live service, our viewership went up quite, quite substantially. Very interesting. Yeah. And for maybe it's just our particular congregation or, you know, our core that's engaged to that level. But the feedback we got was they just liked, you know - our church people in particular - that they liked being a part of something that was live, that they felt like they were connected with in that moment. Not to say that there's other ways you can do it, but for us, that seemed to really be interesting was a benefit. And I think we've just kind of determined that that, you know, Sunday, really our Sunday service, for the most part, it communicates and encourages and impacts the believer. And ultimately, the church, first and foremost is for Jesus. And so we gather to worship. And then secondly, it's to equip the saints. And thirdly, and equally as important - these are all equal importance - but is to reach people and to share the gospel. And so currently we are focusing our Sunday on that continued experience. And of course, we're being wise to be mindful that there are people engaging. And if you're watching online, you're joining us and you want to you're just, you know, learning about Jesus or -- We're trying to communicate in a way that makes sense to people that would be seekers. But we're also just understanding that that Sunday morning opportunity continues to be, for us, a place for our congregation to connect and to grow and to be encouraged. But with that, then we're trying to now discover how do we then create online content that is more impacting specifically for an unchurched audience. And so we're looking at ways - and we haven't really quite, to be honest, got there yet, but we're looking at ways. How do we engage people that are just casual flying by Facebook, connecting in a way that would help them and make sense for them with content and things like that? Yeah, some of the things that I'm hearing people are doing for, you know, primarily the community, rather than putting the whole message on it, they'll do what they call stackable content just to kind of like, to say, hey, here's a two minute Instagram video of Pastor Ben sharing on hope, you know, or whatever. I really like that because I think sometimes we think that the world's going to come running to us. People far from God are going to come running to us because we post our services on Facebook. But if they weren't coming to us before we put it on Facebook, chances are what we're putting up isn't going to be as appealing either. Yeah, and you know, one of the biggest challenges that I'm really feeling as a leader, Paul, is the whole the whole area of content. Because there's different audiences that we're, I think, trying to engage. The one audience is that Sunday morning church gathering. You want to do we want to do that well. But we're even experimenting, when we've stepped into a whole thing with Tehilla, and started up, starting up something called Tehilla Talks. And it's basically -- Well, just for people who know what Tehilla is-- Oh, sure. Yeah, just explain that. So Tehilla is our -- essentially our Monday night service. And it's a ministry that is city wide in its reach. So we've just drawn our circle a little bigger around First Assembly. It's focused primarily on twenty somethings. But everybody, anybody can come. It's got a twenty five year history of being our Monday night gathering out of First Assembly. But we've experimented with, we're experimenting now with, rather than just doing preaching during this pandemic season, we've moved to more of a podcast form and it's been excellent. And the content even it's a little more long form. It's conversational, it's kind of like this. But the content has been deeply theological. And I think in some ways there's a real need for that because people are listening to the Jordan Petersens people listening to a lot of long form, deep topics. And I think it's perhaps an opportunity for the church to say let your Sunday be your Sunday, let it serve what it needs to serve. But let's be creative outside of that. And let's find what's happening in culture and can we create content that is relevant. And let's just go. We're Christians, so let's talk theology. Let's let's do it with the mindset of there may be people that are wanting to learn more about Jesus, even people like Peterson or whatever. They talk about life and space and God and theology and Genesis. And so I think we need to look at this as an opportunity as leaders to say what can we develop and who's on our team and who's in our world that are maybe they're kind of intellectually inclined or, you know, they're kind of into that, that we could just help them move into some of these areas to help us with developing content that will reach, especially 20 somethings, younger people. And so I think we're seeing some really good feedback and some really good traction. And so if you have a chance, check out our Tehilla Talks podcast. They're just there. Yeah, they are good. I've watched, you know, some parts of those. You know, it's surprising to me, you know, we see in our world that there are so many interviews. And yet we still in church world don't do interviews like everyone else does because it's just super engaging to see the dialog or whatever. And I've actually, you know, pushed a couple of churches like, hey, maybe in a summer series instead of preaching, just do interviews. Just interview people throughout this summer, maybe some people that are experts on whatever, but just like --- and see what kind of engagement. And those that have done it have said, yeah, we found--- They've realized something that I think some churches have failed to realize that there are multiple audiences that are online, not just one. And so what do you do to reach them? Yeah. And I think that's the key. I think that's it. Just do what you need to do but experiment beyond just doing one thing or one form or one way of digital communication. Get creative and ask the Holy Spirit to breathe fresh ideas and strategies and ways that we can -- And, you know, learn from other people. We've been doing something that's really got some traction and do something within your context that could be similar. Yeah. So this pandemic has brought a lot of words to the forefront that we probably tired of hearing.
You mention one:unprecedented. That a big word. That's a big buzz word right now. Pivot. You know, I think you mentioned that we're pivoting to this. I've said them all, Paul. I've said them all. Have you? There's, there's one you haven't said yet. (laughter) And I'm about to say it. The reset. You know, we're in a great reset. The great reset. The great reset, you know. Yes. The Great Awakening and the Great Reset. OK, so-- And I think for some churches, this is going to be -- and I know you guys, you know, at First, your church, your board, your leadership, everyone's on board to reach people far from God. And that's the focus. And so in this reset season, I know you guys are heading that way. What is it -- What do you think a reset is going to look like for FA Church moving forward, if anything? Yeah. I mean, I think the reality is, is that some things will change. And some things won't change, you know? And I think we just need to get our hearts and our minds around the fact that that- although I don't believe in any way that God is the cause of this pandemic - but he definitely is in the middle of it and working in it. And so to pay attention to what it is that God would be speaking to us about as leaders and as churches to refine things in our own heart, in our own approach. So for us, I think discipleship has come to the forefront. I think we were making efforts towards discipleship. But I think in this season, coming out of a pandemic, we want to be positioned in such a way to really be focused on doing what Jesus told us to do in the beginning, which is to go in to make disciples. And to really be positioned as a church in that way. I think we've had gatherings and we've had connection opportunities and we've had some good things in place. But we really are digging deeper and looking at how do we actually develop, you know, multiplying, disciple-making leaders. So that's our big focus. And it's a daunting task. I got off a call earlier this morning with some of our team and, a two hour call, and we're like, OK, this has been great. But next meeting is a whiteboard. And we got to, like, we got to keep working on this. And this is not a like this is not even like we figured it all out during the pandemic and now it's going to be awesome. It's more of a trajectory. It's more of a OK, this is this is where we need to keep going. And it's going to be a major, major focus. I think one of the things I mentioned too that's come out of this season is our, what we call FA Cares ministry. And it really is about we have a pantry and groceries that are delivered weekly. There's so much need. It also includes counseling and fixing up cars for single parents. And we've just seen such incredible response from our people getting involved and serving and and just needs being met practically. So I think, you know, what will change. We've always had that as an arm of our church, but I think that will remain. I think even things like online, although everyone is being or is getting weary, I think of Zoom calls and things like this, I think there's still a place for even things like Alpha to continue to be online. We've seen great success with people joining Alpha. Totally. Totally. We had a guy just recently, the Alpha that we're doing right now. He just Googled it. He lives in Calgary. He's not a believer and he just Googled Alpha Calgary and it pushed it to our church. And he's been engaged with the group and growing and learning. We have, I think, around 14 or 15 people that just signed up for Alpha. Some of them or most of them are from Calgary or connected through the church somehow, through a friend. But there's others that are from out of town and they just found us. And every time we've done Alpha online, we've seen real buy-in and traction and interest. And so I think that even when we go back to in time, like real, you know, in person Alpha, I should say. Meeting at homes or the church, that we'll continue this online approach as well. Yeah, yeah. I think there's going to be a lot of both/and moving forward, not either/or. You know, some churches, were like we're either in person or we're online or you know. I think there's going to be a more of a hybrid approach where it's going to be more both/and. And I think churches that understand that that's going to be the new normal will come out of this much better than if you just kind of picked one or the other, or you are just kind of waiting out the storm so you could just go back to in person. I love all those things. And discipleship. Man, can we get you back on the podcast when you figure this one out? Because...(laughter) Yeah, yeah. Well, when we figure it out. And I mean, we are doing some things and we have been doing some things that are helping people connect to community and grow as disciples. But it really does -- I think it just really needs to become our primary focus like never before. Because our gatherings, as good as they are, you know, we've realized that they've carried us to a certain place, but they can't, you can't do everything in an hour and a half. You have to really build structures and focus around that. Having said that, I still am a big believer that gatherings are going to come back strong. I really believe where the presence of God is, where there's worship, where there's an authentic encounter. It's not just show up for a sermon, but it's it's really about an experience with God. And I think there's going to be -- I think to our surprise, in some ways there's going to be such a need and the hunger for in-person gatherings that I'm a big believer that it's going to come back strong following the pandemic. That's great. But I think what's going to shift in what I've been encouraging leaders to do is don't make Sundays the end goal of discipleship. Like like, yeah, we've got people, you know, they're attending Sunday. They're giving they've taken Alpha. They've gone through our next steps. They're in. And it's like that's, yeah, that's part of the discipleship pathway. I think Sunday mornings or weekly gatherings or Monday nights, whatever they participate in, that needs to be part of the discipleship pathway, but not the end of it. And I think when we start thinking about that, I think we'll start seeing more disciples being made. And what we've been -- Some of the language we're using at the Multiply Network is saying every church needs to be a disciple making community. And then we add on, but not every disciple making community is necessarily going to look like a church. You know, and there's going to be -- It might not look the same as, you know, a weekly gathering and a building and a full time pastor. And it might be micro church, it might be house church. It might be -- And one of the things as you guys grow your influence, I believe, you might start seeing FA Church in other parts of Canada kind of pop up with little micro or house churches because they really catch the vision. They feel like they're connected and being discipled, and then they want to express that in the community they're living in and they're not living in Calgary, so they can't attend. So I think there's lots of possibility if we start focusing on making disciples. If we're just adding a crowd, I don't know if that's what Jesus asked us to do. Yeah, and I think that's maybe what we're all learning through this pandemic or relearning maybe or it's becoming very clear, is we have to we have to really understand what we're measuring our - I guess we'll use the word success - like, how are we measuring success? Kingdoms success. And Jesus talked about fruitfulness and I think we have to really focus on are we making disciples and what does that look like? And are we seeing people baptized? And are we seeing people equipped and empowered? And, you know, I think everygood disciple -- People say, well, what about evangelism and what about outreach? Every good disciple is a great evangelist. And I think every good evangelist understands that discipleship is a ----Is the key.--is the main component of what it means to walk with Jesus. It is the main component. And so I think we have a great opportunity to to retool, to lean into digital, to lean into this season where the gatherings are still happening in many respects, at least in Alberta. But there's so much more that we get to experiment with and focus on during this time as well. Because our gatherings, as great as they are, we're realizing that we can't measure like we used to measure, I think. The metrics have changed. The metrics have changed. Yeah. Well, we're closing off here. Any words of encouragement to leaders out there? You're such an encouragement to me and to so many others. Any thoughts you might have for those tuning in? Yeah, I would just say a couple of things. First, I really, truly believe that the best days are yet ahead for the Canadian church. Come on. I live from that vantage point. I believe it. There are challenging days in many respects, but the gospel is still relevant. It's still good news is still life transforming. And I just want to encourage leaders just to continue to to be faithful and to show up and to persevere in times like these. And you know that God is refining. We're not sure exactly what the other side of this pandemic season will look like. But we're not alone. We are the church. The church has made it through all kinds of storms and changes in the past. And Jesus is the pastor of his church. Come on, you're preaching now! He's a good shepherd and a great shepherd and Chief Shepherd. And he's going to lead us and he is leading us. And I think as pastors and leaders, we just have to stay faithful as good under shepherds and continue to take our our directions from from him. And we're not alone. And God is always -- You know, our churches may shrink a little bit or, you know, whatever it may be on our Sundays and things like that. But to not be discouraged by that, because God has always worked with a remnant and I think it is a refining process. There were still seven thousand prophets in Israel when Elijah was complaining to the Lord. And so I think there's more going on behind the scenes and in people's hearts. And I think through prayer and focusing on, you know, setting our hearts to prayer and fasting and things like that, that these things are -- These things are making a difference and things are shifting and things are moving in a direction, I believe, of renewal and revival, setting us up for that season. And I would just say, finally, just to the leader, to embrace transformation, just to embrace what God is doing, transforming you. You know, give yourself grace in this season as well, because not everything should be changed, you know, immediately. Yeah. And don't (laughter). And not everything will change in the future. Not everything needs to be changed today and everything will change in the future. So just give yourself grace and just keep keep going. Come on. Man, you were preaching. I was getting fired up. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. You're welcome, Paul. Get out of the way and let Jesus lead. You know, just keep relying on him. He knows the way forward and that's just such a great encouragement. Ben, thanks so much for jumping on. We'll have you on again for sure, but appreciate you being such a good important part of the Multiply Network and just kind of leading in to some of the things we're doing. So appreciate you and Heather and your family, and again, thanks for jumping on today.