In this episode, we catch up with Anthony and Michele Yackel (UBC Campus Church from Tenth Church in Vancouver) and Jeff Wong (More than 12 Church in Vancouver). In this conversation, we discuss how the pandemic is affecting how we do church now and in the future. We talk about realigning to discipleship, empowering laity, and developing strategic partnerships moving forward.
In this episode, we catch up with Anthony and Michele Yackel (UBC Campus Church from Tenth Church in Vancouver) and Jeff Wong (More than 12 Church in Vancouver). In this conversation, we discuss how the pandemic is affecting how we do church now and in the future. We talk about realigning to discipleship, empowering laity, and developing strategic partnerships moving forward.
Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple making communities across Canada. Hi there, welcome to the Multiply Network. My name is Paul Fraser and so glad that you tuned in today. We're excited to bring you a couple great leaders from our Reimagine Cohort. Our Reimagine Cohort started last fall as we started to think about the future of church and how this pandemic was shaping it, we decided to gather some leaders together to talk about it. We have about 10 to 15 from all over Canada have leaned in and grateful that Anthony and Michele Yakel from Tenth Church in Vancouver, they're planting at UBC. They jumped on Jeff Wong from More Than 12. He's out of Vancouver. They're primarily an online church. And we have their thoughts and creativity and experience to pull on. As we talked about how the pandemic is shaping church moving forward, a realignment to main things like discipleship, how do we empower laity and what kind of partnerships should we be looking to develop in the future. As we think through all these themes, they've come up at a reimagined cohort. We think they're all a big part of our future. So we took some time to discuss it. Grateful for them. You're going to love the interview and it's coming up right now. So great to have all of you on today. And so, Jeff, we're going to start with you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about you, your family and your current church planting journey? All right, I'm Jeff, Jeff Wong, from the Greater Vancouver area. I'm married to an incredible woman which could take up this whole podcast while they describe. Oh wow. Nicely done. We just celebrated 20 years last year and it's been better and better. And we have two kids, Maddie, who's 16, and Lucas, who's 14. And we're preparing them to be servants in the kingdom of God. And they're great kids. Church planting -- We are - We planted the church that we are part of in Greater Vancouver. It's called More than 12. We started right in Vancouver, in the Commercial Drive neighborhood. Very kind of artistic, new agey. Very not church type of neighborhood, in my opinion. And then we were there for many years meeting at a place called the Wise Hall, which is a community hall. A lot of things would happen there, such as theater events, small concerts, but also like nudist events and bondage events and so forth. So. So Sundays would smell like stale beer and so forth at our services. Yeah, it was as little rough, but it was as is there's something really beautiful about about all that and being in that neighborhood. We went through a few different moves along the way. Currently -- Or actually, maybe I'll fast forward to just a pandemic. We were sensing that God was moving us to focus, put more focus and energy towards digital ministry. And I think it was very difficult for the average person to kind of understand. But I kept sensing this. And even my board had a really challenging time understanding this. Then a couple of months later or so, pandemic happened and then everyone can begin to understand more. Because of that. I don't think God was leading towards that for just that. Just the pandemic. Right. But then all of a sudden, almost every church in the world had to deal with the pandemic and go online. So we made a decision few those months that we were going to continue to be online, even post pandemic and God kind of put on our hearts to make disciples of and to reach the Netflix generation, like Youtube, Netflix, etc., where people would would binge watch, kind of participate in their own terms, some would be anonymous and so forth. So we're kind of walking that journey and taking a machete, going through the woods and trying to find our way through that. Yeah. Jeff, great. We're going to hear more about that. Excited to have Anthony and Michele. They're from Vancouver as well. Anthony, why don't you catch us up to where you at? And then we're going to hear from Michele right away. Tell us a little bit about your church planting journey, where you guys are at and what you're doing. Sure, sounds good. Thanks so much for having us. I just want to also talk that Michele and I have been co-pastoring and co-leading in a couple different ministry contexts now for quite a number of years. And so has been a huge joy and privilege to be able to serve alongside my best friend and just to really be able to serve alongside what God's called us to do. We have two kids. Our daughter just turned 16 and our son is 14. And so all they've known really in their entire life is church planting and what that context has been like. Cool. So this kind of my third third go around of church planting, all different denominations and experiences. First one quick, very quickly, was in '96, part of a group that launched the church. Our youth pastor had planted with thirty six other people. So I got to be part of that journey and was going through Bible College and really kind of got my feet wet in ministry and eventually became the executive pastor there. And so I was there for about 10 years. And then in 2010 Michele and I planted a church in a movie theater just outside Vancouver in Langley called Urban Road. And that's where we got to know Jeff. So in those early years, we were able to do a lot of kind of co-branded leadership training with our leadership teams. And it's been fun to watch that journey. And that was a beautiful experience for us. Of just being able to really kind of stay under the radar in the Christian world and think missionally. And what would it be like to be a church for the unchurched and de-churched. We can throw those terms around a lot. But I just saw some beautiful stories of transformation. People that would never, ever have stepped into church, coming to faith and and just really being able to experiment, to dream, to try things. And so that was great. 2016 was tough for us because we did end up making the decision to shut down the community. A lot of stories behind that, but hard and painful. But ultimately, it was the right decision for the community and then spent a couple of years recalibrating and really asking God what he had for us. And 2018 he led to some very unexpectedly to Tenth Church in Vancouver, which ended up -- it was the church I actually grew up in as a kid and then had moved to a different denomination, had a lot of different ministry experiences since then. And Michele and I were both hired to launch a brand new site for Tenth. Tenth is a large multisite multicultural church in Vancouver, has had a huge influence and impact really around Canada through Ken Shigematsu, our senior pastor, through a lot of his books and leadership. And so we were brought on to launch their fifth site at the University of British Columbia, UBC. And that has been such a fantastic opportunity for us. And just love to be in the university context as we are meeting students from over 160 different nations that are represented there. Meeting faculty, neighbors, people that live there. And so we launched officially in September of 2019 and about six months under our belt and just really seeing some great stories of engagements. About 70 percent students and the rest would be people from all different demographics and so on. Had about six months going. And then Covid hit. And so as every single church here in Canada and around the world has had to make changes, that's what we've been working through. So it's-- it was an interesting journey of having about a full year of planning, six months of launching and then a reshift. Wow, so we've got lots of church planting experience on this podcast today, so we're going to try to get some of that experience and knowledge and wisdom and also some speculation, some dreaming, some forecasting as we think through the future. And how this podcast, this group, this panel came about was we started a Reimagine Cohort and we started talking about what is the future of the church look like? And I want to gather leaders. And we were able to gather a few of you today to talk about that. And so we're going to dove in. Obviously, the pandemic has created a domino effect that has sent off, like, multiple crises. And I don't have time to list them all. The economic, the physical, the mental, there's a social issue, loneliness. And on and on. This has been a painful, painful season. And we want to acknowledge that. But also we know that God works things together for good. And so I want to ask you three
today:How is God going to use this pandemic to help churches in Canada? And just maybe talk about like what you think as it relates to how this is helping? And Michele, we'll start with you. What are your thoughts? Yeah, sure. I think it's a great question. I think, first of all, the pandemic sent all of us into a bit of a tailspin and there was this shock factor. And then as reality set in, I think the biggest thing is this has caused us as leaders to really stop and ask some really hard questions. We're used to doing church the way that we've always done it. But one of the great things about God is he is creative. He's an imaginative God, and he doesn't have limits. We certainly do. And within our perspectives, I think we often think we we need to continue to do things as we've done it. Mark Batterson said years ago, and there's ways of doing church that have never been done before. And that has always sparked a lot of dialog and conversation for Anthony and I in our own leadership, of thinking, like what are ways that we can engage the community that we haven't done before and to think creatively. But beyond that, to ask God for Holy Spirit-breathed creativity into what we're doing. But at the end of the day, I think it's a conversation in our churches across Canada, that have had us shift our thinking of how we do church. Online for some people has been so difficult to figure out and navigate. But I think it's causing us to ask questions. How do we engage in relational connection with people? But one of the beautiful things that I think has come out of this, for a zoomed out is we all might be, is realizing we actually have the ability to connect with people in ways that we've not done before. That there is a segment of our community who may not ever feel comfortable walking in the doors of a church, but are so comfortable to sit in their home and engage in this way. So I think there's a lot of things that have been really, really hard about churches having to make this transition. At the same time, I think there's been a beautiful picture of God's grace to spur us on, to think differently, to challenge us. I don't think we've all got it figured out, certainly not. But I think it's cracked open a perspective of church that maybe some of us who've sat in those traditional mindsets need to break out of a little bit. And that hasn't been easy for a lot of people. I know. Very well said. Great thoughts. Jeff, what are your thoughts about this as we look to the future post pandemic? I think the Lord was using the pandemic, partially for a mass upgrade technologically for the church. If the Lord was going to upgrade everything, I mean, there would be a lot of resistance. And so, and once again, the pandemic, there's been lots of challenging and painful things and stressful things that have happened about it, happened with it. But I think the Lord also at the same time has used it to to upgrade the whole, the whole church. I think also, you know, typically the church is quite slow to adapt to changes in technology. But just like with a lot of with a lot of companies and organizations around the world, we all had to make that jump up. A lot of people went to Zoom, went to church, online platform or wherever it might be or people are Facebook live. I also notice that there's a lot of businesses that cater to the church have also made a lot of innovations and, you know, and so forth, ways to give, ways to engage, ways to communicate.So there's been some really great things have come about as a result of that. I think, too, that the pandemic has been a way for the individual Christian, follower of Christ, but also church leaders and pastors to re think or- related to this - to reimagine. Well, to rethink in terms of looking looking to the scriptures, what is it that -- what is the church? Michele said, How do we do church? Yeah, but even like, also and maybe even more importantly, how to be the church. And then there's a lot of sub questions, like what is worship now that it's on a screen? And what is it, what is worship if I'm watching on a mobile device and the sound is low and I can't belt it when I sing. What is musical worship like? What's musical worship like when when there's other people in the house that aren't Christian? Do I sing along when I'm the only one? And do I have headphones on? No one hears the music and I'm singing. I'm self-conscious. Do I stand up? Do I raise my hands to the Lord? Or do I just watch? And how do I engage with that? Do I watch someone else worship and just be in a worshipful mood? Or what? Can I worship in silence? You know, all kinds of sub questions. How do I fellowship with people? How important is fellowship? And do I become even more uncommitted and attend less so to speak. And is attending being a Christian? Oh, yeah, like this, if it is, then we've just made it even easier as a consumer Christian. To just now you don't even have to go. You can just watch and attend. Yeah, you know. I think in some ways it could have catered to the consumer mindset even more. Jeff, those are all very, very good thoughts. Anthony, what are some of your thoughts around this? Like how is this pandemic maybe helped churches think differently, you know, not just how do we do church, how do we be church? Any other thoughts you'd had? So I think in questions. A good quesion I think can really layer and peel away one of the layers. And so I think what's been talked about here is so critical. Where, when the pandemic first hit, we were all in crisis mode. How do we quickly go online? What does that look like? How do we make some of those changes? And it was more like we were focused on the how question, or at least the what question. What are we going to do now? And I think what is provided for us, as challenging and as uncomfortable as it is, is really asking the Why question. And how
do we get to this:What does church look like when we start stripping away all these things that are things we can't do in person and getting to the why of what the church is about. And the why of how we do ministry and what that even begins to look like. And so I think it gets at the heart and the heartbeat and the vision of of those types of things. So it's a question continually asking, why are we doing this? Is this something that we hold on to? Is this something that has to change or be reimagined? Is this something that can be strengthened through it? And then I think the other quick question is, and I don't have the person or the source, unfortunately, but I'd heard it kind of off the cuff before. And the question is, what if what is isn't? And for me, that just really positions us for that future look of saying so this reality that we're living in and the reality we've come from, what is it going to look like moving forward? What types of challenges are we going to have to overcome? What are the things that can be, again, strengthened, built, left behind? And to go from there. So I think for us, a lot of it has been asking some of those questions of really getting to the heart beat and the core foundation of who we are as a church and what we are called to do. I love that because every question sends us on a journey. And I think that's -- if the pandemic has done nothing else, it's at least sent us on a journey to ask questions we weren't asking a year ago. And one of the questions that's coming up, and Jeff, you made reference to it earlier, so maybe we'll start with you this time. We talk about disciple making being important, and we would say - most leaders would say, of course, that's important. It's like grandmas and apple pie. We love grandmas, we love apple pie, like, of course, disciple making.-- And we think it's important, but we think lots of things are important. How do we elevate disciple making to be right near the top and then surround that priority with action in the pandemic, and as you think in the future? I think it has to be it has to be incorporated into the things that matter for church. If this is going to happen in the context of church, which I believe it should - not everyone believes that it should or not and believes that it can't - But I think it should and it can. But I think it really goes against the grain. It needs to be in the vision of the church or the mission in some way or goals. It needs to be in the budget. There needs to be, if you have committees for certain things, that there needs to be a committee or department or team that is strategizing and managing that for the whole church. But I do think that the measurables really need to change because it's been mainly about attendance. You know. And then as we've gone online, it's about the views and subscribers, you know, etc. You can do this for 100 hundred years, like what has been done in that pandemic, and you can do this digital stuff for one hundred years and not make any disciples, but be successful at what you're what you're doing, but not be successful at fulfilling the great commission. Yeah. Anthony, you have a thought about that? Yeah, I think coming back even to the question, I would even slightly push back on part of it, of just saying I don't think that discipled making is even a priority or something that we should classify as a priority to be elevated. I think it is the main thing. I think it is the main focus. And so if we if we created almost as one of the top three things that we should be doing, I think we're missing out on a huge mandate of what the church is about. And so one thing that I've been really thinking about a lot over the last little bit is that really to simplify it, but discipleship at its core is really a journey of transformation towards Jesus. That is at its very root. And I think that is the heartbeat of the church's mission. So I don't look at it as just saying, OK, do we have a disciple making strategy as part of our three point plan? But as saying everything that we are doing is moving people on that transformation towards Jesus. And so I think -- and what part of this even pandemic part is forcing us to do -- is to say, how are we going to do that in new ways? What does that look like if we haven't been able to meet in a building or if we're not able to be there? So I think that it's not just a priority. I think it is the major focus of everything that we have to be doing as a church. Yeah. Thanks for thanks for making that clarification. Michele, What about you? What are what are your thoughts around this? We just wanted to share that I've even found this really difficult as a pastor during the pandemic to think that I'm discipling people and doing it well. There's times I'm just trying to struggle to keep my own head above the water. Yeah, yeah. And so for us, six months in on a university campus, appreciate that when classes closed down and students are freaking out not knowing if they can get homem whereever they're going, we had what we called the Scatter. Our entire community scattered to the ends of the earth. And Anthony and I became like detectives, scoping of people on Facebook and social media, feeling like a creeper because we're trying to find people. Where did everybody go? Where is our community? And and so there's been a lot of times throughout this pandemic that I haven't felt like I've been discipling anybody well, because I'm still trying to identify our community. And I think that goes across the board. At all of our sites at Tenth we began to look at who's really a part of our communities and how do we identify them? How do we find them, how do we continue to have significant engagement with them? And on this journey of discipleship, I really think is completely relational. So it took us to a place of saying if we can't actually be with people, what do we have to do to allow the individual to feel like they are seen, heard and they belong? And that's a huge part of discipleship. Because you can't do that outside of relationship. And so it's been-- It has not been easy. This pandemic threw us for a loop that I just, I still don't know where some of our people went. And that breaks my heart because they were there. And and as we come back, I don't know who's going to be there, but I know the people we have, we've been able to stay relationally connected with, but the aspect of discipleship through a pandemic, I think has taken a very different turn and face and caused us as leaders to ask what's really important in how we disciple people well. And join them in connection, relationship to faith, to Christ and to community. So just a few thoughts. I think people when you said I've actually found it difficult, you know, like just to keep my own head above water, I think there's people out there listening to it's just going -- nodding their heads as they're driving or nodding their heads, you know, as they're walking their dog, listening to this. And just going, I felt the same thing. How do we make this--? How do we still be about, as Anthony said, make it the main thing? And yet we're finding it hard to do church and make it the main thing because we're having our own difficulty with this. And so, Michele, I think you just nailed it with that. With that thought, I think there's a lot of leaders out there that are just feeling the weight of being not good enough in this season. And just, you know, do you have any other thoughts or encouragement? Like, is there anything that you've, you know, that you've just told yourself or spent time in prayer about that maybe helped you go, OK, I'm going to give myself some grace in this season? Yeah, I think, honestly, it's the honesty of just staying it and connecting with others. I think vulnerability begets vulnerability. So when we can share as leaders and not think we have it all together and someone goes, oh, you're feeling like that, too? Like, it's this shame thing that we have that we think as leaders, we have to have it all figured out together. But I mean, gosh, nobody anticipated this pandemic to be 52 weeks long. But for me personally, it's just been connecting with other leaders, with other people that I trust. That I know I can I can see my truth to that aren't going to judge me. And realizing that I'm not alone in this, that we're all in this together and none of us have it figured out. So. And for me, it's just it's being kind to myself. Honestly, I think I've beat myself up enough days and felt like crap because I--- Like, there's days I can't. I just, I can't. I don't know what to do. And so days I struggle with that and other days I go, oK, I've made some significant inroads today, and I feel good about that. But there's other days or weeks that it's like ---Ah man. And I feel that. I feel it. I'm resonating. My head's nodding. Anthony, you got a thought. And I know Jeff, you want to share another thing as well. Anthony, go ahead. Yeah, I think just picking up on what Michele said, that just the awareness and I think the honesty of wrestling with mental health issues has been so critical. And at the best of times or say even pre covid times, mental health has been such a major, major part. So in our context at UBC, one out of five students is working through mental health issues and challenges and anxiety and fears and all sorts of things. And so now we've moved to a new reality that has caused even more things to be poured into people's buckets and so on. So I think for us as leaders,
that awareness of One:how how people in our inner circle, how they are doing mental health-wise, but also for ourselves of reaching that point. And I remember back in January reaching a low point myself just a couple of months ago and talking with other pastors and just saying This is where I'm at. And through that, I think it's helped me begin processing things in a clearer way. So I think mental health and really leaning into that has been a critical part. Totally agree. Jeff, your thoughts? My thought is, is is dealing with more of the discipline making aspect. Yep, go ahead. What we've been talking about super important with mental health and and personal stuff with us as leaders and individuals. But in terms of like the more macro picture and discipline making, one of the things I've been wrestling
with is:If I prioritize disciple making, then I have to ask, is the worship service an effective means of producing disciples? And then what I've been finding is that is not.
Then a follow up question:Then what do you do with the worship service? Oh, now you're meddling.(Laughter) Jeff, we were OK until you did that, but now you're meddling. I don't know. I don't have this in a nice, neat package. But what do you do when the rest of society expects a worship service? Mm hmm. You know, and that's what it is to be a church? Or the type of worship service that they would expect. Yeah, I can hear people out there quoting in Hebrews "do not forsake meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing." I don't think you're saying that. You're just saying-- you're going to gather, but in different ways and for different purposes. And in your context of launching fully digital, things just shift differently for you. You're thinking about things differently. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is that essentially, you know what you're thinking? Kind of, but thinking other things, too.Like I was just meeting with John Leusink from (Zumay), which is about dealing with disciplemaking and resourcing that. But I just told them I have been a ministry all these years. We went to the same Bible college. So like 20 years later, however many years has been- 25 years later, like I thought that I would have made a significant dent. And I look back, I was wrestling back then with some of the same things I'm wrestling with now, like, you know, producing passive Christians, producing observers, producing consumers. Francis Chan talks a lot about this. And I'm still doing that. And so I'm wrestling as a pastor. I also have kind of a prophetic bent and apostolic kind of bent. So I can't. I have such a dissatisfaction with with that. And so I'm wrestling with the scriptures while wrestling with myself like, What needs to what needs to change? And wrestling with society. Because I'm forced in a sense to meet expectations of what society expects from a church. So like when we, you know, even when I want to preach on Sundays through a series that is about following Jesus as a disciple, when we have our small groups on Wednesdays and Thursdays, I lead one on Thursday. On Thursdays we use the same scripture and I can see how much the sermon didn't affect their lives by what they share. Every single week. But this is -- as a pastor, I have to put a lot of energy into Sundays, into the sermon. I think there's going to be a balance, that's going to swing. Like it's going to swing - I don't know which way the pendulum is right now, but I think churches that see their Sunday morning gatherings as part of their disciple making process, not the finish line, will do very well in the future. That like, when I grew up, it's like if we could just get them to church and attend regularly, then we've created disciples. And that's a good marker. That's a good start. But it's not the finish line. It's a part of it. But Jeff, you get me going on this, and pretty soon I'll take over the podcast and stop asking you all questions. So I'm going to move on to the next one. But great thoughts. How do we empower laity? Michelle, we'll start with you. How do we-- How do we -- Maybe ask it this way, what do we need to do to empower laity more in our churches? Because I actually think that's going to be a huge part of our future. Certainly in church multiplication, where we're going to see lay pastors, lay leaders start planting these disciple making communities. But how do we do that? How do we empower laity? Any thoughts? That's a good question, but honestly, it comes by stepping out of the way and truly empowering others and looking at their calling and releasing them into that. A lot of times, when I think over the years of ministry, it's sometimes the most unlikeliest of people that you give an opportunity to and it breaks something in them open and allows them to step into stuff. But I don't think there's a formula to this. I just think it means us having to be willing to step out of the way. And being a person who likes to control stuff, sometimes that's really difficult because it really means I got to get out of the way.(Laughter) Yeah. Oh yeah. And relinquish my ability, to empower someone, to release them and let them do it their way, their God given way, not just how I think it needs to be done. So I think there's two things. I think it's us stepping out of the way, but it's really empowering people and having confidence in them to lead. To do what they've been asked to do, not just by us, but by God. And calling that out and people. And to me, that's one of the most exciting things really about ministry, is when I see something in someone that they can't see in themselves. Yes. And start to pick away at that. And that's what gets me excited in ministry when I can think of people over the last twenty five years, who are now doing things with their lives that they never thought possible because they were simply given an opportunity. Yeah. Oh, I think you've listed off some excellent thoughts there. Anthony? Jeff? Maybe we'll go to you, Anthony. Any other thoughts that you would have on how we can empower laity? One thing that comes to mind immediately is, again, the importance and significance of relationship. Everything comes out of that. Everything comes from that. And so as we get to know people, as we hear their stories, their journeys, we all come from places of experiences, of failures, brokenness, healing, just the whole spectrum that's there. And as we hear those stories and see what it is that God is stirring up within people, I think that really enables us to be able to say, hey, have you thought about this or how can you take it? And I think the other aspect is that when we think of laity, our minds probably go to how can we get them involved in a church setting or a church program or something like that, which is important because there are certain things that have to happen - or life groups, and so on. But I think the even bigger part is how do we release people to think that they are serving ministry in their sphere of influence, wherever that is. And so I think that's always how we began releasing people of saying it's not just about the Sunday morning or the or any of those aspects, but what are you doing? How are you taking this faith and practice into your everyday? So we always say as well, you know, Mondays count just as much as Sundays. Or any of those other parts of the year. So I think relationships. I think thinking beyond just the church walls. Yeah, great thoughts. Very, very good. It's hard to call out things in people that you're not around, that you're not noticing. Great, great thoughts. Jeff, you're over to you. What do you think? How do we empower laity? How are you empowering laity? For me, I'm wishing I could do better, and I've been I'm trying to do a better and better. Some things I've been thinking about is I think it's super important to consider what is a disciple look like? If you're trying to produce disciples, what does that look like when you when you look at the scriptures as listen to some of Francis Chan this morning and he talked about how people have been --- we've been producing observers, but how do we move them to be servants? And so how do we get them to be servants in their everyday context and within the church as a part of their everyday context. But in the workplaces, in their families, how do we also get them to be just to have to be contributors? That there's a -- That a disciple is someone who is -- A part of what a disciple is to someone who contributes. And also someone who produces, that produces fruit, produces other disciples. And then after that, that I think the church has to consider. How do we create opportunities? Because one of the things that I noticed, the smaller the church, the more there is for people to do to contribute. The larger the church, the more people they typically cannot contribute. I was listening to Mark Clark from Village Church in Surrey, here in British Columbia, and he said when they first started, one of their values is -- or I don't know what they call it but -- in order to be, if you're a member of this church, you have to contribute. And he said as we grew bigger and bigger, we couldn't have people contribute anymore. That seems to be a problem if a disciple of someone who contributes, then you've got to find new ways for them to contribute, especially if you're a larger church. Yeah, I can't -- Again, this is anecdotal. It was a church I knew, but I don't have the exact numbers. But someone came in and said, OK, so what are all the volunteer roles that you do at church? And so they listed them all off and then compared them to how many people they had in the church and they hit a saturation point at about 60 percent. And that's assuming that no one else did two jobs - Which we know some volunteers, they're there whenever the doors are open. So if we hit our saturation point, let's say at 60 percent or whatever, what are we going in for the other 40 if those numbers are accurate? I think we have to acknowledge what they're doing in the community. So you volunteer as a soccer coach? That's part of that's part of our mission. You're part of the community league. You're president, you're on the teachers-- or you know, you're at the school council. Whatever your community involvement is, that's like an extension of the church and you have to see that. And I don't know if we've always done a great job at recognizing that while maybe you don't teach Sunday school, you're a teacher at a school and what you're doing there is pretty important, being light in a dark place. So how do you think of being the kingdom of God there yet? Right in the mission field. You're ready in the mission field. I think we have to think about how do we relate it to how do we mobilize people en masse beyond the volunteer roles. So for example, how do we mobilize as many people as we can within our church to, for example, love the least of these? Like what kind of programs, initiatives or vision are we going to unleash to help people be servants or producers in those ways in the mission field that they're already in? Man, we got more questions and answers, but I love the conversation. Michele, your thoughts? Yeah, I think this conversation is even more imperative when you look at the pandemic perspective. We're not gathering on Sundays. So how are we really empowering and releasing leaders to do those things? Because we're not talking about all coming together on a Sunday. Even post pandemic, I think this is what needs to stick is understanding how do we empower and release people to be Christ followers in their every day. And so if we keep talking about discipleship making only coming together on a Sunday, we've missed the whole point. It's longevity, it's life. It's interwoven into culture and family and community. So, yeah, especially this conversation in the pandemic. I mean, we're not asking people to come and serve on a Sunday. Sure. You might need someone to come help with sound and do musical stuff. But in the totality of discipleship, that is just living life, period. As a believer. So I think the conversation has to go a little bit deeper and a little bit broader. And the saturation point now for local churches, what is it? 10 percent? You know, when you've only allowed so many people in a building or if you're not even allowed in the building, it's volunteer hosts that are hosting online and it even drops even further. Anthony, you have a thought before we move on? That just kind of when maybe an endcap to it. I know Michele mentioned another quote from Mark Batterson. We've heard this so many times with people, but it has so resonated with us. And he said, what if as an example, when people are coming into the church, they are coming in and investing in the vision of that local body, that local gathering. And you're buying into the vision, you're buying into the things that are happening that are there. But at the same time, it's reciprocal that we as a church body, we're going to invest in you as you head out into your places, your schools, your families, the neighborhoods. And so it becomes this two-way part. And so I think that's a key aspect of raising volunteers. Again, it's not one directional. It's both directions of saying how are they--? How are people coming and serving within the context, but also how are we as church leaders and as a church, investing in people and sending them into their places? And so that becomes a beautiful movement of God's kingdom at work among us. Yeah, so good. Wow, time is escaping us. This is so great. We're going to end with this last question on partnerships. That came up at our last Reimagine Cohort talking about partnerships. Jeff Hillier from Community Church in Orleans, in the Compassion Center and those cool partnerships they're developing. And so, Michele, we'll let you take the first swing at the pinata here. What kind of partnerships -- Because I think we would all say that partnerships are a big part of our future -- But what kinds of partnerships should churches be looking for as we think about navigating the future? Yeah, that's a great question, I think there's a couple layers to this. One is a partnership with church to church. But I'm going to come at it from a different perspective. What are the needs of your community? Like at large, not just your faith community, but your community? So I think of partnerships in terms of like child care needs. I think of partnerships in terms of feeding programs. I think of the homeless needs. I think of addiction. I think of mental health. So there are so many partnerships within our communities at large that I think churches have sort of stepped into, but not fully embraced the totality of what some of those partnerships can look like. And there's something about partnership with other churches, of course. But I think the real rubber that hits the road is when we partner in community with maybe people that don't necessarily always hold the same values as us. Or when we partner with people who maybe don't always fit the box of what we think Christianity is. And so it pushes the envelope a bit. But I think that's where we get to be the light of Christ wherever we are. So I look at partnerships based on what's actually happening in the community? What are those needs? Are there refugees? Are there other things that we can actually step into and partner with? Not come and take over, but actually come and supplement and walk with? And I think that's the real testament of our faith lived out in action. So just some thoughts. Love that. Great thoughts. Thanks, Michele. Jeff, your thoughts? What kind of partnerships are you looking for or what should we be looking for? For us, we're a small church. And we just know we can't do everything ourselves. We have such limitations - people, expertise, time, etc. So, for example, thinking about what can we use in terms of the of a curriculum or roadmap for discipleship? Do we have to create it? And that could be a huge undertaking. And so -- Do we find somebody. So we partner with an organization that specializes in this or a movement or or what have you. Also, whenever we haven't had enough people to do worship online, like, to do musical worship online, we partner with people who aren't in our city. Because we they don't have to be in our city. And so people who could who could do that with the camera that they have in the sound equipment that they have. And so we've tried to be more open to what is possible, you know. And I think that's helped. Great. Anthony, your thoughts on partnerships moving forward? Without hopefully sounding too much like a broken record, again, a think relationship, just getting to know the community, getting to know who is at work. And I think Michele said it earlier, not coming in to impose our strategy or our agenda, but to say if there are people that are doing what you're feeling called to do in the neighborhood or in that particular part, get to know them. No agendas, just be building that relationship and then see what can happen. And I think two things quickly. Don't be surprised by the people that God brings across your path. That they might be the surprising people, the unexpected people, people that you thought, how would that even work? But to realize that God works in so many different ways. And I think to listen to his whisper, listen to those promptings. We've had some, even over the past number of months, some really amazing conversations and connections with people who have been hurt by the church and so many different levels. They've been stigmatized, all sorts of stuff. And we've been able to start building some relationships and to start saying how can we come alongside and to be able to see what can happen through something like this. So some amazing opportunities and conversations that are going. So don't -- Just keep listening to the whisper, keep stepping out, even if it doesn't make sense. Because I feel so often that God is actually working in those moments and we're going to be surprised by what he's going to do. Love it. Yeah. Like, just be open. God wants us to be working with others. And we're at best when we're working with others. And so -- Love all those thoughts. Going to put you all on the spot. Give us a one minute encouragement to leaders out there right now going through this pandemic. What would you want to say to encourage them? I would encourage all your leaders out there that are feeling a little disoriented because ministry looks so different and to not give up and not feel discouraged just because things look different. That you are rooted and grounded in the scripture and the mission of Christ and you have the Holy Spirit. And those are great things for this new frontier. Amazing. Thanks, Jeff. Yeah, I would just I would say be honest with yourself and be gracious with yourself. You know, we often take critique from so many places. But one thing I've learned really specifically this last year is unless I would go to that person to seek advice, in the same way then I shouldn't be taking so closely to heart their criticisms. And shouldn't be holding it. And that's one of the things I've had to really navigate this year for myself personally. And so I would just say to leaders like pay attention to who you're really listening to and what you're actually allowing inside your spirit and is it truth? And are those people that you really need to be listening to or the people that you need to just not. Their voices aren't the ones that need to be resonating with you. And just be honest with yourself and know that leadership life is not always easy and it's OK to ask for help. Very well said, Anthony. The closing thoughts. No pressure. No pressure. Well I'll tell you kind of a thought that I've been mulling over over the last little bit, hopefully for encouragement at the same time. But I could give the full quote. But Brennan Manning talked about the new wine, in new wine skins. And he said that we need the artists, the poets, the mystics, the clowns to be able to really breathe that new life and that new wine into new wine skins. Because they're able to begin seeing things differently. And so what I'm thinking through is none of us know what we're heading into in this post covid reality. And so there's a lot of fears that we could have of what change can look like, you know, what it's going to be like. And yet, I think if we can stay open and say that we are trusting and believing that God is actually doing something new and can bring about newness and things that we never could have anticipated, things that he's perhaps even accelerated in this past year, and that we can be confident in that and hopeful and to see that God uses all sorts of ways. And so let's be open to God's voice. I think that's what the mystic captures, the artists that are seeing things and saying that creative element of just saying, let's keep leaning into that. And to be people who are thinking and just saying we don't want to go back to how it was, but what new thing could God perhaps be birthing in us? And then the clowns, I think, are just that aspect of being present, being rooted in the moment, being having that childlike wonder and enjoyment and just being able to say, God, we're here, we're going to we're going to step into this next season with open hands. And we're going to trust you in that. So just some things I've been thinking about that, again, get captured and held in the love of God. That he's got this. This is not a surprise to him, but we're believing that good things are going to come out of it. Painful things, absolutely. But good things as well. Wow. This has been a rich time. And I just want to thank the three of you for taking time to invest in leaders through the Multiply Network. And just so grateful that you came on today. Thanks so much.