In this leadership conversation, we chat with Jeff about the upcoming Church Planting Canada Congress, the replant he's leading in Oakville, disciple-making culture and even how his smoked turkey went over on Thanksgiving weekend. Hope you can take time to listen in on this leadership conversation.
In this leadership conversation, we chat with Jeff about the upcoming Church Planting Canada Congress, the replant he's leading in Oakville, disciple-making culture and even how his smoked turkey went over on Thanksgiving weekend. Hope you can take time to listen in on this leadership conversation.
Welcome to the Multiply Network Podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple making communities across Canada. Hi there, welcome to the Multiply Network. My name is Paul. So glad that you tuned in today. We're going to take a little bit of a different approach in our podcast moving forward. In my role, I have a wonderful privilege of connecting with leaders all over Canada. And often when we're on Zoom calls or we're in person, we have this similar thought. Because the conversation was so good, that we wish it was recorded. And so we're going to take a little bit of a different approach. I'm going to bring you into some of the conversations that I get to be a part of with great guests like the guest we have today, Jeff Christopherson. He's the executive director of Church Planting Canada. He's leading a church in Oakville. He's written books. He's talked, you know, he's a missiologist, so he knows what's happening and he's thinking through the future as it relates to church and church planting. We talk about that. And we just have a conversation about where we're at today. Hey, we even talk about Thanksgiving Turkey and the fact that he put his turkey in a smoker, and now I want to buy one. So we talk about a lot of things. Want to bring you into this conversation, and you're going to love it because Jeff Christopherson's got so many great things to say, and it's coming up right now. Hi, Jeff, thanks for coming back on the Multiply Network podcast again. It's great to be with you, Paul. Really is. Yeah, it's so good to have you and just finishing off a Thanksgiving and, you know, weekend. And so I mean, the big question we're all wondering, what did you have for Thanksgiving dinner? Yeah. Well, we had the whole Hee-Haw gang over, and so I broke out my big Shirley. And actually we did three turkeys. We roasted one in the oven and I smoked two. And the two is a bit of a taste test, where I got like a regular frozen one from the grocery store and I bought a farm fresh one and I treated them both the same. And I kind of said A or B, which one do you prefer? And so that was kind of interesting to me. Don't leave us hanging. What was it, A or B? It's interesting. It was like the$1.69 Turkey versus the 3.99/lb farm fresh one. Yeah. And it was unanimous. Everyone wanted the $1.69 one. No way. Seriously. Oh my goodness. Hey, OK, just -- I'm curious about this. What's with this smoking culture? Not, you know, not cigarette smoking, but smoking meat culture. Like, I feel like every time I jump on Facebook, someone's got a smoker and showing brisket and ribs and like, what? Like, Am I missing something here? You're really missing. I mean, it is kind of fun to see. Like, I've been doing this since 2005, something like that. I've been involved in it, and I started with a little Weber Smoky Mountain thing, and then I had a Green Egg. And now I've got this big commercial smoker that I bought out of Alabama and had shipped up here. Oh you're serious. Yeah. But I don't know. It's just to me, there's a correlation between the amount of investment of energy you put in something and the better the taste at the other end. Yeah. Well, and so what do you recommend now? I mean, obviously we're not going to all buy something from Alabama. But what's the -- if we were to go out and buy something today in Canada, what would we be looking at? Well, I mean, to me, an offset smoker, something like that where your pellets are actually logs and those are the-- you know, that's where you're going to get your best flavor, for sure. OK. Well, everyone, keep your eyes open, you know, for good deals. Maybe Costco will start getting in the market on these things. Church Planting Canada, you're the executive director and we have a conference coming up. But why don't you tell us a little bit about the vision of Church Planting Canada and some of the -- We're going to be hitting three things over the next six years, just kind of on repeat and maybe unpack those things for us today. Sure. So, Church Planning Canada. I think in Canada, we recognize, maybe what our brothers to the South do not recognize, and that is that we're a minority and we need each other. And and so there's, you know, there are some of us, I suppose, that like the fight. But most evangelicals in Canada, I think, are coming to the realization that we are outnumbered, outgunned and we really need to learn from one another, encourage one another. And so the vision of a Church Planting Canada - way before my time, Cam Roxboro and others before him had this this vision of how do we gather ourselves together to actually learn from one another, encourage one another. So that's been the genesis for a long time. I think when when I was asked to give leadership to it, I've been watching trends both in Canada and in the United States and we're kind of the leading edge of the bad news in Canada, and we feel that we feel it first. Yeah, we do you, that's so true. And so I've just been -- just come to the conviction that us just doing what we have been doing, only doing it a little better, doing a little sexier, a little flashier, a little harder, putting more energy behind it isn't going to get us, isn't going to turn things around. And we're actually at a nexus point, I think, where we have to make some significant changes or, you know, there's just -- God's church isn't going to die. But but a lot of our our ideas and our, you know, structures and denominations are going to be in big, big trouble and there's going to be sort of a rising of something new that's going to take its place -- which may happen anyway. Who knows? But, I just -- So those three big ideas that we talk about are, we need, first, a different kind of church. And in that I speak of a church that looks at its pews as the resources for, as a raw material for what God wants to do. And so multiplication, reproduction, happens from a discipleship energy towards disciple making. We not only use discipleship as a, you know, a way to help people tithe and become good church members, but actually is a way that we send. And so we have a disciple making process that doesn't end, isn't a terminal process. Our church isn't the dead end link on the great commission chain. But it moves forward. So a different kind of church. And then to that, a different kind of church planter, different kind of leader. And here's where we've got to take a page out of our history or a page out of what's going on around the globe and begin to look towards less everything being professional and more between teams of co-vocational people. Where we're deploying teams of people that are called to all kinds of things in the marketplace and also called to the Church of Jesus Christ. And and working sort of symbiotically in that. And then thirdly,-- the different kind of church, a different kind of church planter and thirdly, then a different level of gospel collaboration. And that's just what we're seeing. We're seeing in places that are actually moving the needle in terms of seeing evangelism rates increase the clip in an area, we're seeing a correlation between the pastors and leaders of churches seeing that they're not in competition with one another, but they're in competition with darkness and that they pull in together to have a gospel saturation strategy where they're working together on that. And they keep the main thing the main thing. And so those three big things are, I think in Canada, we're set up to culturally say, I think we should lean in on these. And so I just really want to wave that flag hard and long for a while. Yeah. And it's not just -- Those are all important things that we need to be thinking about. And it's not just for denominations that are -- and networks -- that are together. How many, you know, our partners with Church Planting Canada, how many different kinds? Yeah, I think we're up to upwards somewhere around 25. Yeah. So it's -- I love this idea of multi denomination or interdenominational collaboration. And we were planning an event, weren't we? To be in Calgary and we were going to-----And Alberta had its best summer ever---- best summer ever. Ouch. Yeah, it was a great summer here in Alberta. But now we are --Yeah, we're in the throes of a fourth wave here and we were going to have an event in Calgary and it was going to be amazing and we had people coming from all over Canada. We had record enrollment, record registration. Yeah, for for in-person. And then we had to make this wise decision. Not -- it wasn't the fun decision -- the wise decision to go online. And so we're going to be going online this October. And why don't you tell us, you know, who's going to be there online? It's going to be the -- let me just -- the 26th and 27th in the evening, and we're going to try to make it available for our co-vocational and bi-vocational planters, so they can be there to participate. But why don't you just share your heart with what we're going to be sharing at this conference and maybe some of the speakers? So on those three big ideas, we kind of went around the globe and tried to get the best examples of people who are actually living this and seeing the fruit of it. And so we're having speakers coming in, now online, from around the world that are actually living testimonies of what we're talking about here and how it works. And then we are having other expressions in Canada. So maybe, a little more incipient, a little more early on. And who are actually forming themselves towards these kinds of postures and movements. And so we've got kind of both a global picture of it and a local picture of it. And I think that's going to be helpful. Sometimes we're easy to dismiss something that's going on around the rest of the world saying, you know, Well, that's over there. It could never happen here. Well, we're seeing we're seeing some of it happen here. And so that's exciting. And so ChurchPlantingCanada.ca- You can see all the speakers. You can still register online. We've got really good attendance. We're going to be doing some breakout groups as well. In case you didn't know, I'm part of the design team with Jeff, and so that's why I know so much about this and excited about it. And you probably don't want to blow your own horn, Paul, but it's interesting to me that many of the -- We're probably heavily numbered in PAOC. I think PAOC has got a disproportionate amount of expressions of what we're looking at. And it wasn't because of you saying, I'm on this design team. I want my way. No, I'm the guy looking around Canada to see what we have here. And so a feather in the cap of the leadership of your tribe is that you have people that are on the front end of thinking on a lot of these things. I think that's really great. We have tremendous leaders in our group and-- but certainly we don't want to, you know, feel like -- We've got so much to learn. And since I took this role nationally as the Multiply Network Coordinator, that just kind of drives, you know, just in our PAOC family, church multiplication, as I chat with other denominations and networks, we certainly have a lot of catch up to do on some of those things. And so I've enjoyed being a part of this team and connecting with their design team, but just all of Church Planting Canada, all of the leaders. And that would be something I would say. If you're a leader out there and you're thinking about church planting or church multiplication, you need to be a part of these conversations. So, you know, be a part of the conference this year. Watch it online. It's not a huge time commitment. I think it's two and a half hours on the Tuesday, two and a half hours on the Wednesday. But then you're going to have an opportunity to be involved in some cohorting after. Did you want to talk about that a little bit, Jeff? Yeah. Well, we're having to -- Again, everything is changing, right? And so I can't actually share too much on that. I have a call actually right after this at two o'clock eastern time on that. But so I really can't share too too much because the plans I did have have morphed now. But we just recognize that you don't change -- most people don't fundamentally change -- especially a habit like church, like how we do church -- without really wrestling through. And so we really do want to have some cohorts of leaders who are walking this journey together that are actually, you know, wrestling biblically through this, culturally through this. How does this work? How do I need to change? How am I sucking wind here and who can encourage me? And so most times those major shifts that we have, in fact, if you think about a big U-curve like a big U - On the one side is this letting go, and then there's a repenting and then there's a rethinking, you know? And that word repentance. We think of it in often a negative time, like we've been bad. But actually the word better mettanoia means, you know, it's a new mind. It's like God blowing our mind. And I think that's what's happening right now. The ideas that we've had in Canada about what the body of Christ is has been blowing up. I mean, it's been a bit of a slow leak for a while, but over these last two years now, it has just exploded. And I think God has a different picture for us. And so -- There's lots of new conversations. We didn't think we'd be having this early, probably. And what I've loved about, you know, being involved in Church Planting Canada -- Well, first of all, it's--and I'm connected as you are, Jeff, to other groups in the states that are learning and we're sharing together. Thankful for the CMN Network, the Assemblies of God, who have just been so generous. Big fan of John Davidson----Oh and Jeffrey Portman. And those guys are phenomenal and they just they've just -- Anything I've needed, they've just sent and just very open handed. But it is a different culture in Canada, obviously. And so what I love about these conversations is they're Canadian conversations. And at the event as well, after every session, we're going to have Canadian missiologists talk on a panel and give feedback regarding the content we just heard. And so we're hoping to make it really engaging; opportunity for the audience to jump in -- We're really trying to figure out how to make this feel like it's that everybody's in the room right at the same time. And so we've even invented a format -- none of us has ever seen it before, but we've invented a format where we have a couple of online hosts that are reacting in real time to the online audience. And then on the panel, on the stage, we have live, like you say, these emerging missiologists across Canada, that are kind of knee deep in the middle of this conversation doing it themselves. And so we're going to be discussing what we've just heard. And then the audience can engage with the hosts to fire it over to to this panel. So we're actually going to have Real-Time Conversation what was even what the audience is feeling. And this is the hope, Jeff.(laughter) This is the hope.(laughter) This is our best plan. And so if you're wondering what this is going to look like, think about like CBC on election night, or CTV, where everyone has different desks on the stage. That's kind of the thinking we have. So anyways --. Without the budget.(Laughter) Without that -- Yeah, without that large, large budget, I'm sure that they have. So anyways, Church Planting Canada. Register. Be a part of it. What I've loved and again, another thing I've loved about these church planting conversations is-- Like, I view church planting a little bit as the R&D - research and development - of PAOC anyways. And I think other organizations do as well. And so there's a lot of conversations when you think about Future of Church, it often starts with church planting conversations. So if you have a heart or desire an interest to see where the church is going, you need to be talking with church planters and missiologists. And you have an opportunity at Church Planting Canada Congress this year, October 26th and 27th. Jeff, we talked abou,t just prior to this, and you know, you're 30000 foot leader, you're missiologist, do a lot of writing, you've written books and so you have a vision. And the executive director of Church Planting Canada. But you're also a local church pastor that's restarting or replanting, you know, a church. And so it's not like you're just always flying at 30000 feet, pontificating on where we should go as this movement, you're actually in the trenches, you're actually right there. And so I do want to talk about the replanting strategy you have. Because I think there's some people that are approaching this fall, including our planters,
that are going:I feel like I have to replant this thing. But let's keep it a bit broader, but use both perspectives. Like, Church in Canada. What what are we seeing here? People aren't coming back to church like they have. Do we need a new apologetic on gathering? How do we church plant in this climate? Like, just any thoughts? Because I know you're engaging with lots of different leaders from all different denominations and you're a local church pastor. What are you seeing? What are you thinking about the church in Canada moving forward? Well, at the start of this pandemic, I very just clearly the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said, When you speak to pastors, tell them this. And so I've heard for so many years pastors, leaders who felt called by God to do, you know, something and they end up running the instruments of a church instead. And the things of their passion have sort of dissipated. And now they're busy doing all kinds of other trivial things that aren't really at the center of what the how God called them in the very first place. And so what I sense God's saying at the beginning of this is, OK, now be courageous. This is your moment. This is your moment. There's a pause that's about to happen here and take full opportunity of the pause to begin to reorder the priorities of your church. And so, I think what we -- you know, and it's been a common discussion, has COVID produced problems or revealed them? And I think probably both. But the revelation, I think, has been that we have so put our interest and attention in gathering. Gathering has been everything. We've become really good gatherers, and we've sort of had a subcategory of the church gathered and then the church scattered, which had no thought behind it. And all of a sudden, when the church became scattered, you know it, it seemed like the church had no power. The church it had nothing to do because the only thing we understood how to do is put a worship service together largely. And so I hope we can reframe that to the church gathered and the church deployed. And we begin to put as much energy or more on the deploying part. And so, the church gathered might look entirely different than it had in the past. And the church deployed might be very strategic in how we use our leaders, our staff, in equipping. We see in Ephesians
4:11, 12 - equipping people for the works of ministry. I'm not sure why we just -- I'm not sure why, leaders, we just-- yeah, it's in there and we all just, you know, collectively, not our heads. And then we don't necessarily, you know, disciple them to a place where they become ministers of reconciliation seven days a week. Like, I mean, we're excited -- My wife and I are working with an existing church here in Edmonton - Well, just outside Edmonton - Gateway Family Church in Leduc. And we're dreaming about an existing church with a micro church network. And how does that work together? And we're just -- even this Sunday, I'm team teaching with my friend as we kind of talk through what is it like to live the missionary mindset or the missionary lifestyle every single day? And I think that's what you mean by deployed, correct? Yeah. So for instance, just a practical example. So the church that I'm leading, as I thought, like, how do I get them to a point where emotionally they're ready for Sunday morning worship service isn't everything we do. And so well, God's in control of all things and he's allowed this virus to disrupt. And so what we've done is we've moved from having a weekly worship service to a-- we're continuing in our missional communities to meet weekly. And instead of having two groups that meet, like on a Sunday and on a Wednesday and having common people, like believers both times kind of getting together twice -- So Sunday we live stream in teaching and and we have a time where it is very much for the believers. But that same group of people on Wednesday or Thursday are actually missioning together. And then we're gathering them together on a big sort of gathering time once a month, instead of every Sunday, where we're celebrating baptisms and doing all kinds of things. But it takes just so much energy to pull off the big thing that all of our energy of our church was was going towards that. We didn't have any opportunity or energy or bandwidth or resources or money or anything towards our mission. And so what this does is because we are doing a covocational model - so we're not paying staff - and because we are doing not renting every week now, that all of the tithes and offerings money goes towards mission in our communities and our neighborhoods. So our missional communities have thousands of dollars to meet needs with in the name of Christ. And we don't have to pass the hat every five minutes to wipe somebody's nose or whatever. And so, yeah. Yeah. OK. So missional communities. I mean, micro church, micro sites, micro campuses. I think the thing that we have in common is the decentralization. Now, I'm not -- 'm a both/and guy. Like, I actually think that existing churches, if they position themselves to be more apostolic in nature -. Use your building, use your congregation as a sending area. So you bring people in to send them out. Like that's just the -- I think there's a wonderful marriage between that and, you know, embracing this decentralization and empowering laypeople to be ministers. And so do you see, you know, do you see this happening more and more? Will you see more existing churches, do you think, moving to micro church or micro campuses or missionary communities? Yeah, that's where the trend definitely is. I see two things happening that are very healthy, I think, and it's being we're being led by younger leaders on both of them. One is - When you think about denominations, it used to be at least, you know, talk about your Pentecostal distinctives. Talk about your Baptist distinctives, in my world. And so we're kind of celebrating the things that make us different than everybody else. And those become, you know, really big points that we gather around. Well, the younger gang isn't doing that. And there's a sense more of the normalcy of the body of Christ that they're actually wanting to aspire towards and begin to put their energies in. So there's that. And then there is this sense where the church as performance is something that isn't working for them and they're really wanting-- You know, they're seeing the church as the vehicle for the Kingdom of God instead of the goal in of itself. And so, I think we're being led by a generation that has been frustrated with the priorities of previous generations, that one, including I, occupy. And actually, I think they have their finger on the pulse of both culture, and I think the heart of God, which is kind of exciting. And I think there's still --- there's still this place. They're not saying we don't want to meet together. They're just maybe wanting to meet for different purposes or different avenues or venues. And I do see micro church and missional communities and all of those things really, really ramping up because I think there's a lot of people that are sitting in our churches and coming on Sunday that have pastoral gifts, that have teaching gifts, that have apostolic and prophetic and evangelistic bents and interest and gifts in those areas, for them to go out and start things. And we've just made it all about -- Well, I'm not going to say we've -- At times we've made it about just those who are just leading from the stage. Yeah, I mean, the questions we ask and the answers we give kind of tell us really where we are. We say, So where is your church? And then in that we mean like a physical place. Or what time is church? And in that we mean, you know, what time is a worship service. Or what kind of church? And in that we're meaning, What kind of tribe are you a part of? Or something. Those are the questions that we're asking to help describe specifics of who we are. And those are all bad questions and they give us bad answers. And I think the picture of the body of Christ and the person of Christ lining up. And I think that's where that Ephesians passage is helpful too - apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher. So yeah. And so you've actually included that into the leadership team. We've chatted about this before. When you were thinking about taking this church on and replanting or restarting or whatever you want to -- revitalizing it, you actually went out of your way to find those gifts and bring them on to your team. So why don't you talk about the replanting, revitalization? Because I think most leaders are feeling like we've had a year and a half off, you know, intermittent, maybe in-person meetings, depending on which province you're in. And now, you know, and now they're feeling like -- especially for church plants, who have been out of buildings, can't rent schools -- You know, what were some of the things you thought about pre-pandemic and now maybe how has that changed since the pandemic? Boy, that's a big question. Pre-pandemic. I was stymied on how to get from A to B, to be honest. I was stymied on how to get beyond the theory on this, because the pain points of -- that it is going to take to live a different life. You know, I didn't want to blow the church up. I didn't want, you know, everybody to go, okay, you know, if you're not going to meet my wants and needs, I'm out of here. And so I was a bit stymied pre-pandemic. I think I've referred to this already, but kind of God set us up at this to take opportunity, take this opportunity to not really miss a beat. And so, you know, we lose people in this? I don't think we did. Did we pick up people? Yes, we have. And so yeah. It's going to be -- It's going to be an interesting thing. Now,I mean, in Ontario here we've been so --. So locked down.-- Locked down. But now - We're now able to meet and homes, you know, and it's like, Oh, wow, this is we're starting to live it. And so it's kind of -- So when you switched to the missional community idea, was there initial pushback or was there excitement or --? People, I mean, were cool with the idea. The harder part was to say, We are not going to also gather every Sunday morning, sing hymns or sing worship songs, and you know -- And to say, No, we're just going to do that once a month. And we're going to have a celebration once a month. And we're going to put our energies on --- We build a mini APEST in every missional community. So we have our A's equipped the A's in each of the Missional Communities, our P's... So our whole thing is an equipping structure. And so yeah, we're just in the beginning of living that now actually, now that we can be together. What are you excited about, like as you as you're journeying? Like, what are the things that excite you about the local church? Yeah, I think ownership. Yeah, that's good. I like that. Yeah, it's like people, I think, are feeling like this isn't, you know, this isn't Jeff church. This is Jesus's Church. And I think we're--- That open handed way that we have to live and have to lead encourages everybody just to come join in. The passage of scripture that always bugged me as a pastor, saying, you know, follow me as I follow Christ and everybody else in the back of your mind saying, Yeah, right, you know, you're getting paid for this, you'r full time. And now they know that I'm as busy or busier than most of them, I can say with a fair bit of conviction, follow me as I follow Christ. And there's less excuses of why not. Yeah, yeah. Oh man, I love that. The ownership piece is a big deal. Like, we work -- You work nationally still, and obviously I work nationally, and it's hard to get a shared vision. It just is that - I found that to be such a challenge. And not that people wouldn't, you know, collectively nod their heads about the vision. Like, let's reach Canada. Let's start a new disciple making communities. Let's revitalize churches. And we all collectively nod our heads. We always vote for the great commission. Yeah, we always vote for the great commission. Hey, who wants to do the great commission? Yeah. Who wants to do the great commandment? Yeah. Who wants to do the great requirement? Yeah, we're all in. We love it. And then, but once it requires the change - in structural change and courageous leadership and people maybe not liking the change, pushing maybe back to that consumer mindset - the shared vision idea begins to to wane because that shared vision does cause change. And I think it was Brian Sanders who said, on a call that that I was on some time ago, he says Every organization has an immune system. So anything that's new is seen as a threat. Anything that's introduced as new is seen as a threat, until it realizes it isn't in. So trying to get that shared vision, a new shared vision -- Because we bumped into that a little bit, you know, just kind of like, let's introduce this. And I think, you know, the mission of communities, micro churches, microsites, micro campuses could be very disruptive. And the fact that we moved online? Like now, you could have a church in, you know -- You could have a church in Calgary, but have people from all over the world be a part of your church. Watching it, be involved in the ministry. Maybe you want to do a micro site there. Like it's very disruptive, this whole thing, but what an opportunity we have. Well, I mean, I think we as leaders can sort of-- There's a crucifixion that has to happen in our own spirit. And the cross that we have to sort of die on is that it isn't our church. We know that. But we feel responsible for it. We feel responsible for the form, making it work. And at some point we have to die to that and say No, no, I'm responsible to King Jesus, I'm responsible to the, you know, the people that God has given me stewardship over. And I'm responsible to make followers of King Jesus by these people. And all of a sudden, the forms become less important. And yeah. And when the church becomes the goal, it becomes as idolatrous, powerless thing. And I think we're there way too much as pastors. Yeah, my friend said to me, and this - We will kind of end on this. This actually could take another 40 minutes. But anyways. I want to I want to and with this. My friend said to me, some time ago, you know - because part of my role is to help start new disciple making communities all over Canada. So that's kind of the Multiply Network, what we're part of in PAOC. And so we use the word disciple making communities - He goes, It's interesting. We've asked you to make, start new disciple making communities without disciple making culture. And that is actually very true. And part of me thinks I should probably stop worrying about starting new disciple making communities and maybe start worrying about embedding disciple making culture in our existing and new churches. Because until that happens, we probably won't see the multiplication we want to see. As Peter Drucker says, Culture eats vision for breakfast. It does. And so how do we build disciple making culture? Like for me, I'm committed to this. Like any new start we have, we - our whole lead team is on board- that we're going to make sure that every new start we have will have disciple making culture baked right in, including multiplication. And so we kind of think maybe we could fix the future by starting enough disciple making culture churches that it will slowly shift and change and impact, maybe, the others around. And I know, even in our revitalization summit we had this summer, it was all about disciple making culture. So any thoughts on how we can do that in our churches today? How do we ensure that disciple making culture is there? Well, it has to be the prime directive and nothing can compete with it. And so it can't be, you know, Here's what I need from my people in order to keep everything going as a church. And if we have time left, let's give the extras to this disciple making stuff. The second thing it has to be modeled and lived by everybody. And if your leadership isn't doing it, don't bother trying to make it a priority. And so if people are just going to do what they see people doing. And if no one, you know, there's just no way to make that happen. And... I had a third thing -- (laughter) Well, I would add, I would add. Don't don't make it a program, don't make discipleship a program, but a lifestyle. I think sometimes we say, you know, and I'm a big fan of Alpha, that's a great start. And it is kind of a structure and I think use it, definitely. But beyond that, it should be like, Oh, we're in discipleship classes. 101, 201, 301, 401. Then after you finish that, you're done. You've been discipled. Yeah. Like who is discipling you and who are you discipling? That to me is the question. Yeah, reproducibility is the key to it, right? That's the question. How do you know you have a disciple making culture? That when you walk up to someone in your church and you say, Hey, who's discipling you? And then they say someone and then you say, And who are you discipling? And they answer that. Like if you randomly go up to people and ask them? Maybe it's a litmus paper test on disciple making culture. But if they if like nine out of 10 people are going, Yeah, someone, this person is discipling me and I'm disciplining one, two, three, whatever people. That'll tell you as a leader that it's that it's happening. I mean, you need to define that. You know, define what discipleship is and the characteristics and what you're shooting for. But I just think like, just a real simple question is Who are you discipling? And Who's discipling you? And carry the whole continuum. Like maybe even drop the word discipleship from your vocabulary. OK. Because it's been polluted, in our memories, with a course and a book and a fill in the blank and a small group study and that. And really disciple making is what we're asked to do. And that implicit in disciple making is evangelism. And we make discipleship and evangelism as contradictory-- I was going to say that --. Yeah. And disciple making has always been How I'm fishing. And then I'm teaching. You know, it's this whole thing. Yeah, we've made them two separate things. It's like --.-- and competing things... Yeah,. We're an evangelistic church, that means we're shallow. We're a discipleship church, that means we're deep. Yeah. And it's just like, actually discipleship happens well before someone makes a decision to follow. That's right. And I think that's something that when I talk to young leaders, it's a no brainer. They don't even blink. They like, yeah -- I call it incipient sanctification, because I watch people who have been in this disciple making culture, who have never yet bowed their knees to King Jesus. But they're hanging around believers, and they're actually changing habits, changing priorities, changing things, that by the time they say yes to Jesus, they are miles down the road. Yeah. I love it. So I think there's -- I mean, we could go down this trail lots. But Jeff, thanks for this conversation. Thanks for all that you're doing for Canada. I know you were in the States for a number of years helping them out, but I know you felt the call to come back to Canada. Yeah, it's my home.. Yeah, And help spur things on here. We're so grateful for your voice. Keep writing, keep speaking. And hopefully we can get a ton of people on Church Planting Congress this year. Yeah,. You know more sharing the vision and--. Yeah, Thank you , Paul. We're behind you. We love it. Well, I'm very grateful, both for the work and investment that you are putting into this, and Brian is our chairman of the Board of Church Planting Canada. Yeah, right. And your people are a huge, huge impetus in this whole thing. So very grateful for you. We love it. All right. Thanks for jumping on today, Jeff.