Multiply Network Podcast

The 8 Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication - Objection #2 "Too Many Churches" with Paul Fraser, Michael Bronson and Jim Molloy

• Multiply Network • Season 2 • Episode 2

Share episode

We are in the second episode of our brand new podcast series called "The 8 Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication". Objections #2 is "we already have enough churches".  The objection here is based on the idea, "we already have so many churches here in Canada, why do we need any more?" Is this a valid objection? Our cohosts for the series, Paul Fraser and Michael Bronson, tackle this topic head on with special guest Jim Molloy and chat through how we overcome this objection!

Hi everyone. Welcome to the Multiply Network Podcast. My name is Paul Fraser. Thanks so much for tuning in today. We're in the second part of our series of Eight Objections to Church Multiplication. We had a great podcast last time with our new co-host, Michael Bronson. Michael, come on and join me. Thanks so much for being the co-host with me on these Eight Objections for Church Multiplication. How are you doing today? I'm doing well, absolutely. So the real question is, how are you doing with all your allergies from last time? I feel good. (Laughter) I'm so grateful for all the feedback that I got on this. It's just, so many people have responded back with ideas on how to help with the allergies. So, thank you. We have not made any way, any headway with Claritin or Reactine, or anything like that, or any of the allergy medications. Paul, we've been praying and fasting for you, bro. We've been praying and fasting for you. So just, wow. Oh, thanks for doing that. Thanks for doing that. How's the weather out where you're at today? That's pretty nice out actually. It's pretty nice day, but it's hit or miss. So what about you? Well it's Alberta, it's like 20 minutes. You know, you just wait 20 minutes, the weather changes. We're in the season right now where it's like it still could, like, snow and rain and wind. It's just crazy. But, yeah. For those who are in soccer season in Alberta, they know that all you have to do is wait 20 minutes and the whole weather system will change. So, yeah, it's crazy. Every Church a Multiplying Church is our rallying cry. It's our initiative that we're launching. Because we do want to see every church become a multiplying church. And it was the reason why we developed this podcast, was to help dismantle some of the objections around why we can't be multiplying churches. Talk about the validity of it, where they come from, these objections. But then we want to resource you. A little bit more on that, at the end of the podcast, where you can find our resources. But that is the reason why we're doing this podcast, because we want to see your church, your leadership, be a multiplying church or ministry. And so we're tackling some objections. And, Michael, why don't you tell us what the objection we're tackling today is? Absolutely. So this one is one of the first ones that people, by default, think of, okay.

So Objection Number Two:

there are already too many churches. Why on earth would we start a new church when there's already too many as it is? So this is something that comes up over and over and over again whenever we kind of throw out that idea of church planting and multiplication and starting new things. So what do you think about that, Paul? What do you think? Well, I'm really grateful that I don't have to think very much about this, because we're bringing on a guest. His name is Jim Molloy, and he's the Executive Director at the Maritimes District for the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. He's an excellent bass fisherman. He knows how to do construction. He's married, with three boys, so he loves quadding - But there, they call it four-wheeling. I'm not sure what the difference is, but we call it quadding here - And he's a business mogul and social media guru.(Laughter) The list goes on and on and on. Jim Molloy, welcome to the Multiply Network Podcast. Hey, guys. Good to be here. So, Michael asked me, Hey, what do you think about this objection? And so before I share my thoughts, we wanted to hear from an expert. So why? Like, why is this objection even around? Like, I don't know --. Like, what are your thoughts on the reason that this objection is still an objection? 2000 years later, after Jesus. Well, I think if you look across any town, and the landscape and the architecture in a town, you'll see church after church after church. So optically, it looks very much like we have enough of these places that we don't need to make more of these places. But in this, we're not really talking about places. We're talking about missions. And so if we think of --. If churches are a place for people to gather, we have lots of gathering places. But if churches are actually teams or platoons of mission, then that changes everything. It's not just buildings to fill, it's missions to do. So the diversity of types of churches and types of people groups or, you know, the various regions and all kinds of different modes and methods that we would need. But our mind gets tricked when we see all these architectural, grandiose structures around us. Oh, we don't need any more of those. But we do need more platoons because there's a lot more people to reach. Michael, you talked about, before - just prepping for the podcast - this idea of, if we're planting -- And it's kind of picking up on what Jim's saying-- is this idea of like, Well, if we're just planting the same churches. Maybe this is a legitimate --. Like, if they're all just the same, maybe it's a legitimate reason? Yeah, that's right. And that's not what we're trying to suggest. Right? With, Let's be people that are visioning and pioneering and starting new things. We're not saying, okay, take what you're doing and do it exactly the same two minutes down the road. Because that's a legitimate objection, right. But yeah, I think what happens too is we often, kind of, see directly what's around us. And we say, Listen, in my direct community, in my neighborhood, I'm reaching my neighborhood. So we don't need another two new churches. I'm already doing that work and it's just going to cannibalize the situation. And, no, no, we don't need more. We don't need more. I'm already doing it. And that actually makes sense, just with our own vision, with our own little, not blinders on, but just kind of looking at just around our own context. But if you take a step back, can't like--. Oh my goodness, Canada. It's a very, very different story, especially when you start looking at the numbers, and the stats and all of that. Yeah. Like Jim, you've worked in district leadership, sat on national teams before. You're an international speaker as well, I'm sure. But like, territorialism is a real thing, isn't it? Like sometimes, with some leaders. Where it's like, hey, you don't need to reach this community, this area, this --, because we're already doing it. Or we already have people coming from there or whatever. Like, any thoughts on that? Like, does that have some legitimacy? Has that helped build this objection? Yeah, I think so, for sure. I think any new church that starts is going to take people from existing churches. It's not--. We try to mitigate that. We try to work around it. So what happens, embedded in the objection there is there is a legitimate threat. Somebody is going to lose resources or people as another church or the same church tries to accomplish another mission to reach a diverse group of people or solve some sort of, you know, missional problem. It's just --. So, it's a real objection. It's not false. Because there is within it, you know, a threat. There is going to be consequence to the churches in the area. But beyond that, even mathematically, there's just not enough churches. If you were to fill every church in every town, we will be far less under-filled than than --. And then add into that the number of churches that are closing, right? That also changes the math. Yeah. One of the things that I thought about it is like, what might make this seem like a valid objection is this idea of supply and demand. Obviously, Canadian culture has moved away from coming to church. And churches are plateaued or declining. And there's still room in those churches to, you know, fill up. So why don't we fill those up first before we plant churches. And I can understand. I can understand that from a perspective that's like, you know, maybe like Mike, what you said, not seeing the bigger picture. Because, you know, 1910, most of the Canadians, most Canadians went to church on Sunday. You know, it's like 90% went to church and 10% stayed home. Now it's flipped. Right? And so for this argument to hold any water now. I feel like it's an older argument that has just held on to a culture that does not exist anymore. This idea of supply demand. When the big three churches in Canada, you know, the largest groups, the largest - when PAOC wasn't even in the mix - they were reaching people. They had, you know, churches in small towns all over the place. I could understand that argument and maybe why it's hung on. But if you look at our culture today, that's just not holding any water anymore. They're just --. We just cannot--. Like, Jim, you said, the math doesn't work. So let's just jump into that. Because I think people are understanding, where maybe this objection comes from. But the reality is, if you just take a broader look, you do the math, and you understand, Wait a second. This objection actually doesn't hold a lot of water. If we believe that Jesus was true when He said that it's the desire of the Father that none should perish, and that all should have everlasting

life. John 3:

16. If He actually believes that, then I just don't think we have enough churches. So, Jim, what are your thoughts around some of these things on, you know, maybe dismantling this objection and trying to have a new perspective and a new mindset towards it. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. It is a carry over to a way of thinking from decades. And probably because, when we hear the word, I'm going to plant a church, immediately a picture comes into our mind of what that is. And that picture is probably, you know, a structure or a rented hall with a group of people. You know, guitars, worship, preaching, all of that. So it's another one of what we already have. Because we think in terms of places, not in terms of faces. So we really have this picture, because of our past. But modern church planting or modern multiplication, making new disciple making communities, could be very different than the usual. And it does change the math a bit. We're not making another one of the same thing we already have, or the thing we used to have, you know, a century ago. There's a new missional approach and new methods and new modes to reach new groups of people, whether they be, you know, a different gender, a different race, different language, different geography. So it's all very different. And so we backload our thinking with our history. But modern multiplication is very different I think. We filter so many things through our past experience, right? Including this mindset, I think, has just kind of hung on. And Michael, what are your thoughts around this? I know that this is a pretty, pretty passionate topic for you as well. Yeah, well, it's funny, right? Because we're thinking, you know, back in, you know, 1910 or -20 sort of thing. But it's funny, even just one year ago, how different is the nation right now. Like, I was trying--. I couldn't get an exact number, like per person, but this is what I came up with in my research. There was over a million new people that came to Canada in 2023. So that over a three percent population growth in one year. So it's just --. You think about that. It's like that is absolutely wild how many new people are coming. And I think there's about 30 to 40% of these new immigrants consider themselves religious of some sort. So maybe there's some Christianity in there, but maybe, maybe it's, it's this or that. Like, it could be anything. So there's a lot of new people. So - I think you said it earlier, Jim - it's like, just to maintain what we have as a whole right now, we need to be planting new churches. But oh, by the way, there's an extra million people just dropped into Canada. Good luck. Good luck with plenty more churches. Or good luck with --. It's just --. Well, here's a question. Are we growing at 3%? If the nation is growing 3%, is the typical church growing 3%? I don't know the the answer to that question, but it's something to think about, right? Well, I think it was Ed Stetzer that said, at a conference I was at, it's like 3% is the maintenance mode of any--. Like, if you're not growing at 3%, then then you're not even keeping up with --. You're not maintaining. And I think that included population growth. Jim and I were at a conference, the Church Multiplication Network conference in Houston. And so theirs would be the sister organization to the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. And we're at their conference and their General Superintendent got up and said, Currently we are one Assemblies of God church for every 27,000- or I can't remember, Jim - It was like some 27--, 28,000 people. And we want to plant enough churches that we're one church for every 10,000. So imagine, like --. So I think when we think through this idea, I think PAOC is somewhere in the neighborhood of one for every 32,000. And maybe if you're from another denomination, you can do the math. Like, I think when we think about more churches, we think about, well, what's the ratio then? And I don't know if I have a good one. I'm not sure if one church can reach 10,000 people. Like, if every church did. To me, that even seems high. But let's say we just have that number. That's, like, radically increasing -- It's not like adding 3% -- Now, we're doubling, maybe even tripling. So, Jim, I mean, you talked about the math earlier. Any other thoughts around that? Not really, but I did do, in one of our small towns in New Brunswick. Paul, you and I were at this town, I think, for doing a revite there. And we did the math. And just to get, 200 people into a church - say we were to make churches of 200 people - we would need something like 250 churches just to handle that volume. Just have the --. And even with mathematically --. And the other thing is, another town just north of that New Brunswick, if I was to ask that pastor, Hey, is there are lots of churches in this town? That pastor would say, Yeah, we have a lot of churches in this town. If I would say, Do we need another one? That pastor would probably say, No, we don't need another church. But that same pastor is planting a Filipino church in his church. They just made room within their church. But the thinking wouldn't have been, you know, wouldn't have been against the objection. But that's exactly what it is. There's another group, another church within a church. So it's not always a geography, you know, a geography or a math question as it is -- you know, there's a need here for people to be reached. And it doesn't have to always look the same. That's another thing. I think we can keep our eyes open as we think about Every Church a Multiplying Church is, is there a cultural language group church in your town or city that - or neighboring community --. With immigration being so high, we have to really lean that way. You know, so I don't think, for example, you know, for an English speaking church to have an Arabic or, you know, Chinese, Spanish speaking -- doesn't matter -- church right across the street. I don't think that we should be, like, worried about proximity then. Because it's it's totally reaching a different group of people. And I think that's part of the multiplication mindset, is to pay attention to those things as well. Michael, some other thoughts on dismantling this objective or objection. Not objective. Yeah.(Laughter) We need to dismantle the objective. The objective --. This is not objective.

We have an objective:

Every Church a Multiplying Church. Objection... Yeah, I think it it takes us becoming kingdom minded thinkers, right? Where it's not about, okay, is the exact thing that I'm leading, is this successful? Is this --. You know what I mean? And it's like, that's great that you're leading something successful and growing and this sort of thing. But if we could take a step back and be kingdom minded thinkers, it's more, Okay, are the newer churches around us succeeding? Because that that matters. And the truth is, we need new churches. Even, you know -- just a quick story from my perspective. I live in Binbrook, Ontario. So about an hour drive from Toronto. And there's about 12,000 people that that live here now. And it was--. Ten years ago, there was 500 people that lived here. So this is like--. It was this little farming village that the the city of Hamilton decided, you know what? We're going to make this a community here. And just out of nowhere, it's just surrounded by farm field. You're driving through the farm field and randomly there's like this, this town. It's like, oh, wow, where did this come from? And I remember right when we were starting this church, I got a phone call from someone and said, Hey, I just heard there's another new church starting in Binbrook. And I remember thinking, Wait, wait, wait --. But it takes like two minutes to drive through Binbrook. What do you mean? There's another one? Like, oh no. And I remember, I reached out to this pastor. And, you know, I was thinking, Oh, like, maybe I can tell them, Like, oh, just so you know, we're doing this. Like, you don't need to come, you know --. And he's telling me how he's just purchased his house here and this --. And it's like, okay, this guy is locked in. And I remember we looked at each other. We were at a Tim Hortons. And I remember just saying to him, I'm really sorry. I feel very awkward about this whole situation. You know what I mean? But it was really beautiful, because in that moment, we both decided, you know what? Let's trust that God is leading us both and that this community actually needs both of these new churches. And it's incredible, seven years later, there's people that have been baptized in that church that I've never even seen before, right? And it goes the other way as well. So I think we need all kinds of churches, reaching all sorts of different people. We need different sizes of churches. There's people that are part of my church that have gotten saved, found Jesus, and said, I sorry, I just need something bigger. And they've left. And I've had people who have walked away from God, that have come back and said, you know what? I just need something a little smaller, something a little more medium size, where the pastor knows my face and name. Like, our churches --. They're all important. They're all very valuable, and we need every style and flavor if we're going to reach Canada, right? 100%. Rick Warren said, We need every kind of church to reach every kind of people like or, sorry -- all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. And for us to just say, though, this is the model -- we talked about this last objection -- that you have to do this model, you have to do it this way, and there's no other way to do it, I think is just not helpful. And, you know, ends up, you know, ends up hurting church multiplication. Jim, any other --? Or do you have another thing that would --, another thing that would just--, argument that would dismantle this objection of, Ah, we already have too many churches. Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that are true that they're unfortunately true. One of them would be that new churches win lost people better than existing churches. It shouldn't be that way. It just --. It just is. And, there's some examination in there, but but new churches -- it might be the excitement that comes along with a new thing. It might be that it's just shiny. But people find a sense of purpose and mission in it, and more people come to Jesus faster in new church plants than they do in existing churches. And then the other uncomfortable truth is that leadership development happens faster in new churches. And it might be just because there's an opportunity to try novel approaches, and the environment is conducive to experimenting and giving something a shot. Or maybe people feel it's safer to try dangerous things in a new, clunky place than it is back at the mothership. So there's these two things that really are true for us, that new churches do win people quicker, faster, and then leadership bubbles up. And maybe it's just simply that we're desperate for leaders in the new thing, that the threshold maybe -- maybe not in actuality -- but the threshold feels lower and people can cross that threshold into trying, experimenting in leadership. So I think there's also--, something happens in a new thing that inspires people, lets people experiment, gets people to be innovative, lets people find new ways to solve problems. And also it opens up generosity in a new way. So there's all this kind of entrepreneurial vibe that happens, that we wish was in the mothership too, or in the original plant or the church that's multiplying, but it's not to the full degree. And so I think there's an advantage there too, of keeping a freshness in that new work. Yeah. It g.ives you another reason to want to start a new community. We've seen that. I've been a part of two, three church plants, like, pretty involved in them. And you see that at the beginning. In fact, Ed Stetzer and -- who else did that? It was the state of church planting in Canada, and they talked about that the first three years of a church plant sees -- I can't remember the number, so I won't say it -- but many more people come to Christ through the church plant than an existing church. But what happens, they noticed, a year three -- At year three, between year three and four, they end up becoming almost the same numbers as an existing church for salvations. Which is which is why, you know, I advocate for every 3 to 4 years, that a church does something like a vitalization process. Where it's like, hey, are we still winning people to Jesus? Are we still --? And of course, there's exceptions to all the rules, but those were the stats. You saw this year one grow. Year two grow. Year three, when it came to salvation. Year four, it's just like every, existing church. Seeing some growth and salvations for sure, but not to the level they were experiencing it before. And so that's perhaps another-- a topic for another day. Michael, any other thoughts around, Ah, we have too many churches. Yeah, I think we overestimate how many churches we --, how many effective, life giving, people getting saved at it, filled with the Holy Ghost churches we have in Canada. I'm a part of a team with Ontario's, The PAOC, Ontario --, Western Ontario District --New Churches Network, like the church planting ministry of that. And we're putting together, like, a list of all the communities that we have in our district. And you know--, what PAOC churches do we have there? And if there's no PAOC church, is there at least an evangelical church, in the sense of, is that church trying to reach them for Jesus, reach the community for Jesus, and this sort of thing. And I remember, as we're originally putting it together, like it's actually shocking how many communities that we have where it's like, oh my goodness, there's how many thousands of people that live in this community? There's no PAOC church. There's no evangelical church. Who's reaching these people? And it's not always just, Oh, but they can drive 20 minutes over to the next city. Often it's these isolated communities that are like an hour drive, 45 minute drive. And it's just --, it's heartbreaking looking where it's like, oh my goodness, this is Canada. And we have entire communities, thousands of people, and there's no church. And it's not even about, Okay, there's a new church starting, so like the whole community got saved all at once. And like there's this massive revival the next week and all this. It's more of just --, do the people in this community even have a chance to hear about Jesus? Do they even have a chance to hear that God loves them and that they can be involved in this mission? And it just--. I don't know, it's heartbreaking. And I think we need to open our eyes a little bit of the state of where Canada is with this. I would say too, that as you go in places like Toronto, Vancouver, in some of the places where there's just tons of condominiums and those style of housing, there's tens of thousands of people that don't have -- maybe, you know, maybe like, 50 - 60,000 people -- that don't have a church within one kilometer. You know, 1 or 2 kilometers in a city that dense, is so many people. And so for us to say, We've got too many churches. Well, then where are they in Toronto and Vancouver? Because, we're not seeing--. And again, we talked about this last time new models. We have to be creative and thinking about that. But you're right. There's communities--. I was just in a place in Saskatchewan, small town. Their church of, I don't know, somewhere between 80 and 100 people-- was just there speaking --. And they've already started another disciple making community in a town that's twice their size. So their town is like 300, and they've moved to another town of 700, seeing people saved already. And, and --. Because there was no evangelical church there. And to me -- and if I can just say this -- small town doesn't equal small thinking. I love it when there's pastors in those rural areas like you mentioned about, that have this heart to pastor, not just their their own community, but the whole region. Where they look around at all these other small towns and we go, wow, that town's only got 600 people in it. But that's 600 people. We'd be happy with the church of 600 people, if you could get every --. So I --. We need --. I mean, I just this is such a hot button issue for me, on this idea of, Well, we already have enough churches. I just don't know if it holds any water. Jim, we'll throw it over to you for any final thoughts on just dismantling this objective. Any other things come up or just anything you want to reaffirm? Sure. My initial response to the objection when I first heard it was, I think we have to be careful that our narrow mindedness about the model doesn't make us think that we have enough. You know, a new house church is multiplication. A satellite campus is multiplication. Large launching in a city nearby is multiplication. A church within the church is multiplication. Microchurch is multiplication. Guitar and the Gospel in the coffee shop is multiplication. Workplace neighborhood, an online church, a youth church, those, you know, an ethnic specific church, those are all starting the new church. So we don't have enough churches. We might have enough of the same type of churches. But if we let our narrow mindedness about the model, we might miss that, you know, a workplace church or a neighborhood Bible study church or something. And so I just would call this back to if we think of the models and the methods, and it's not a place but a mission, the objection kind of falls apart, I think. Great thought, Jim. That's why we brought the expert on. Well done. Michael, is this in the Bible?(Laughter). You're the Bible guy. Like, you read the Bible. Me and Jim do too. But is this in the Bible anywhere? I think this concept is somewhere in the Bible. I just--. Ah, where could it be--? Yeah, yeah.(Laughter) But it's really good that we're actually bringing this--, having, you know, arguments against objections and it's actually some Biblical ---. Oh yes, that's right. Well, I just--, yeah, I have it in front of me, just an example in the Book of Acts. It's the--. The early church had just been scattered from persecution in Jerusalem. And it's interesting, you know, Jesus says, okay, go everywhere, go everywhere, and do this. And then the disciples just kind of, everyone just stays put. So then this persecution happens.

In Acts 11:

19 and on it says, "Now those who have been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading word only among the Jews." So there's a certain kind of church that they're starting. But then it goes on to verse 20. It says, "Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to the Greeks also." So you just have this beautiful picture of people going out to new places geographically, but then also when it comes to style, and target audience, and who they're reaching, there's just this beautiful mosaic of church services and church gatherings and church communities. They don't need to all look the same, you know. And, my goodness, Canada needs this. Canada needs this so much. And, you know, just--. I just think, at the end of the day, if you take a map of Canada, you get a dart, chuck it at the map, plant a church there. Because that's place needs a church. That's what it really comes down to. You don't need to pray about it. Just get a dart and check it at a map, okay? Not actually, but you know what I mean. Everywhere needs a new church. There's lots of places that need new disciple making communities. And again, church planting isn't the goal. Making disciples and expanding the kingdom is the goal. And that, to me, is what we have to keep circling back to. It's not just--. It's just not the amount of churches. Those churches need to be making disciples. Like, every church that we plant needs to be a multiplying church. It has to have it built into the DNA already. And so, you know, Jesus says, expand the kingdom, make disciples. Paul the Apostle comes underneath that vision and says, we're going to do that by going and starting new disciple making communities. And so we always have to remember that the church isn't -- church planting or church multiplication -- is not the goal, but it's in service of the goal.(Applause soundtrack) Thank you. I didn't know where that audience came from. Jim, thank you for sharing that.(Laughter) Okay, so the counter statement then to this objection is my community needs many new churches to reach all the people in it. Jim, would you agree with that statement? Yeah, absolutely. Of course. 100%. Michael, you're on board. Yeah. Well, again, it's like what we did last time, right? Is you take the lie, you replace it with the truth. It's oh, oh we don't need new churches. No, no, no, that's a lie. You replace it. No, no, no. We need many new churches. Our communities need many new churches. Canada needs this. Yeah, and so we need to have --. You know, just recapping some of the things. What we need is, we talked about leaving old mindsets behind. Being more kingdom minded. Understanding that there's fruitfulness. When we do new churches, they're reaching people, those multiplying, disciple making communities. It's a great place for leadership development. And we really do need all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. Jim, thanks for jumping on today. Appreciate you. And can't wait for the book that's coming out, that you're going to be writing about this. And--. I'm looking forward to it, too. Yeah.(Laughter) Thanks for jumping on today. See you guys. Yeah. See you, Jim. Michael, any final thoughts as we kind of close off today? Yeah. Well, I just remember Not in my Backyard Syndrome. And I just want to encourage everyone listening today. It's, you know, it's --. Let's not have this mindset that says, no, no, no, plant churches, just not near me. No, no, no. Let's have this kingdom minded mindset that says, Yes, whatever it takes. Let's support one another. Let's help one another. And, Canada needs this. Canada needs this. Absolutely. Yeah. Great. Thanks so much, Michael, for today. For being such a great co-host. Well, folks, thanks for tuning into our podcast today. We really want to be committed to helping you become a multiplying leader, leading a multiplying church. Because we want to see every church in Canada, not just in our PAOC family, but also abroad, the church in Canada, that we would all be multiplying churches. And so we're providing resources on a landing page at EveryChurch.ca. EveryChurch.ca. We're going to have a lot of resources there for you. There's links to this podcast. There's links to different resources that we're providing. And we hope it'll be helpful for you. Like I said, we want to come alongside and support you however we can. So thanks so much for leaning in today. We're going to be hitting, next week, our third objection of eight in the objections to church multiplication. So appreciate you spending the time with us today. And, like I said, make sure you check out EveryChurch -- EveryChurch.ca. All right, everyone, have a great day. Well, thanks for listening today. We trust this conversation was encouraging. If you want more information on church multiplication resources, or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey, reach out to us by email. MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org. Until next time.