Multiply Network Podcast

The 8 Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication - Objection #3 - "We Need To Revitalize Churches Not Plant New Ones" with Paul Fraser, Michael Bronson and special guest Jeremiah Raible

• Multiply Network • Season 2 • Episode 3

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We are in the third episode of our new podcast series called "The 8 most Common Objections to Church Multiplication". This objection is around the idea that all our efforts need to be about revitalizing churches not starting new ones. Where do you think this objection is rooted? Does this have some validity? Should we stop planting new churches until the majority of our existing churches are out of plateau and decline? Or is there a both/and strategy instead of an either/or one?See what our hosts and special guest have to say!

Well, here we are on objection number three in our series of eight most common objections to church multiplication. And we're really excited to have my co-host again, Michael Bronson is joining. Michael, how are you today? Hey, Paul. Good to see/ hear you. It's always fun hanging out. It's good to see you too. I was thinking about, some things about my childhood recently, and one of the things I was thinking about, was this what I wanted to do when I grew up? And, I don't know, what did you want to do when you grew up? Do you remember that? Like, as a little kid? Oh, wow. Yeah, when I was a little kid. Like, are we talking really young? Like, this is-- Oh, I don't know. Mid--. Let's say mid- to upper- elementary. Okay. Well, the first thing I ever wanted to do when I first started school was I wanted to be a crossing guard because it had the word guard in it. And my plan was I was going to flip the stop sign upside down and use it as a sword, you know, keep people safe, you know? So that was that was my ambition as that my first career that I wanted. So --- And I think they still -- I think they even pay for that. It's not a lot but they do pay for the crossing guards. Oh yeah. That's kinda nice. That's right. When I grew up, I had lots of different things, probably professional athlete. But I remember like when-- Do you remember that-- So this was like when I was an adult, when the, when the show Suits came out? Do you remember Suits? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Harvey Specter, he's a legend. Yeah yeah yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I was like, I, I didn't watch when it first came out. Binged it like nine seasons in about nine hours. Like, like I just did it as fast as I could. And then I realized, no, no, no. What my real calling in life was to be a lawyer. Because what I wanted to say

in a courtroom:

"I object". Which kind of ---which leads us--- and great segue, Paul -- It leads us into the objection that we are talking about today. And, so if I happen to say "I object" during this podcast, you'll know why. Here's the objection we're talking about today, Michael. We should be investing into revitalizing churches instead of planting new ones. Okay. Yes, that's right. Why is -- This this is a common objection that I've heard a lot since I've been in this role. Why has it got legs? Why is this? There's some merit here. Yeah, well, first off, there's probably many lawyers that become lawyers to do that. And they never have the chance to say "I object" so --. I object! All the sympathy to all those lawyers that are never able to say that but -- And all they do is write letters and get paid very well. Yes that's right. Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. We're all, we're all jealous of the finances there. Yeah. That's -- it's -- That's a common objection right? To multiplication. Why should we be starting new churches when there's churches that aren't growing and they're maybe plateaued or possibly even shrinking. So obviously we should be putting our effort into that. And I think, I think probably every single one of us knows some leaders that are leading really healthy churches that are really growing. And we probably all know leaders that are in churches that are the complete opposite of that. So at first glance, it makes sense. And can I tell you an analogy that I thought of Paul? I think this --. Yeah, go ahead. I think this works well with this. Because, I understand where people are coming from. And, you know, here on this podcast, we want to make sure we're still manning some arguments. We're not just giving the fluff and, you know, trying to dismantle the fluff. No, no, no. Like this. It's a legit argument. And it's almost like, imagine having a farmer who who has a field and the farmer's trying to bring in a harvest from that field. Imagine, this farmer is not bringing a return. Like, the field is just not working. There's no harvest. Why on earth would that farmer then go and buy another second field and try doing it again when the first one isn't working at all? And I feel like that's kind of the perspective that a lot of us have when we think about this argument. And it's true, if you think of it from that viewpoint. But much like the previous podcast, we're going to take a step back. And what we want to do is we want to look at that objection from a different angle and a different viewpoint. Because it doesn't have to be from that perspective. So I'm excited to talk about that today. This is perfect because we have got a guest that's going to help us think this through. His name is Jeremiah Raible. He's the Vitalization Coach or one of the visualization coaches in the Alberta Northwest Territories District of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. He is a future thinker. He's great at all things tech. He was a polka band drummer once and he's super fun to be around. Jeremiah Raible, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks so much for having me, Paul. That was one of the best stories ever. That polka bad story. Perhaps another time. But, when when we think about this, objection to church multiplication, obviously, you're involved with visualization, working with all kinds of churches. When I say we should be investing into revitalizing churches instead of planting new ones, this is your world. Why does this carry some merit? Well, I think about the same objection I heard when I worked in international missions. Why are we sending people overseas when we need to send people here? And it's this either/or mentality. I don't -- I'm not quite, I don't quite understand where that comes from. And I think the reason why it has legs, though, is because there-- Seven out of ten existing churches are in decline, in plateau. You know, in 2019, the CBC reported that 10,000 churches will close in ten years. And that was before Covid. I think that's expedited. So there is you know, churches are closing. They're losing their land. I mean, this is land you'll never get back, zoning you'll never get back. So there is quite -- Yeah, there's quite a need here in Canada. For the last four decades, the church has been on the decline. And I think some of that has just-- What's happening with our existing churches, and when they see these new churches pop up or, in some cases, you go to one church and there's three other churches renting in one church. And it's just saying, okay, well, what's happening with the Canadian church? And again, I think the heart of it is we want to see more people come to Christ in Canada. We want to reverse the trend from decline to growth. But I don't know if that's the only way is simply to revitalize only. But I do think that that's coming out of a heart of looking at the current trajectory of the Canadian church and say, well, boy, something has to be done and is the only thing that we can do to close the existing church and plant new ones. Now, I'm not sure if that's the answer either. Right. And I do think that, for me, this objection-- I find myself agreeing with because I think healthy churches do multiply. Like at least they have the opportunity. It's embedded -- like the kingdom of God, multiplication, is embedded into the church that Jesus is building. But if it's not healthy -- You know, you reproduce often what you are. And so it makes sense to just say, hey, stop planting, stop planting, because we've got gotta, you know, we've got to make sure that our churches are vitalized. And there's a lot of truth in that. But it's a both/and conversation. It's like saying to someone, okay, everybody stay in grade seven until we all get to grade seven. There's some churches in -- like there's some churches that are ready to start multiplying. There's some churches that are healthy, growing, got good disciple making culture. They're ready to go. They're ready to launch. So for me, I think what we're going to center in on today is I think we're going to nod our heads and say, this is actually a legit point, except it's either/or thinking. And what we really need is both/and thinking. And I think that's where we're going to land today. Is there any other -- Michael, do you have any other things you want to add before we move on? Yeah. Well, Jeremiah, what was that stat you just said? It was seven out of ten churches? Seven out of ten churches are plateaued or declining. Yeah. Wow. And is that is that all Canadian churches or with PAOC specifically? Yeah, I mean 80% -- The general stat is 80% of Canadian churches are in plateau and decline. Wow. That's, that's-- Okay, so we got to do something about this. Okay. There you go. How could anyone say that vitalization -- Like, it like revitalization-- Like, we need it if we're sitting at 30%. And I think this was an Ed Stetzer stat, it was something like 85% of churches aren't -- No, 80% of churches, like you said, of that plateaued or declining, 15% are growing by-- Transfer. You're looking for the word transfer-- Transfer growth, thank you. And then there's only 3 to 5% that are growing through new conversions. Can we talk about that for a second too? Yeah. Because we all know that transfer growth is way, way easier than new conversion growth because, you know, if someone moves in from a different town or says, oh, I'm coming from this church and this sort of thing, what do they ask? Oh, so how do I start serving? And, oh, so how do you do your giving here? Oh, will you do it through tithely. Oh, you do it through e-transfer. Oh, you do it through cash. Perfect. All right. I'll set that up. And we've all had those conversations. And trust me, those are beautiful conversations, those are great days for our budgets and this sort of thing. But we probably have all been in that scenario, too, where there's this new Christian that says, you know, for the first time of, oh, I'm supposed to give to this? You know, and it's just the process of discipleship is hard work, and it takes a long, long time. And, you know, I'm just thinking of people in our, in my church context where, you know, it's they're years in and finally, finally after, you know, attempted mentoring and reaching out and phone calls and coffees and just it's finally taking these simple steps of, you know, you take it for granted. So I see why transfer, you know, a big chunk of the growth in the church is just transfer growth. But I think you said it before, Paul. You were challenged me on this, and a group of planters. It's we cannot be just aiming for transfers. It must be new conversion. Like this, this is what God wants right? For the kingdom. And the reality is, though, I mean, the reality is any church that's growing will grow, 75% will be transfer growth. And that could also be people, especially in Canada, coming into the nation from other Christian, predominately Christian nations. They'll come in and they'll attend a church. So you want to aim, you aim for, you know, new convert growth. It's a challenge because, you're right, because there is a bit of that shifting sheep mentality. Certainly in, you know, let's say North American church - I can't speak for the rest of the world - but certainly there is that, Hey, not really, you know, not really jiving with this or it's not working for my kids. And all of a sudden, you know, you're gone to somewhere else. But but the focus that we try to build in - and, Jeremiah, this is not -- I mean, you can talk to this as well because we talk about vitalization processes -- The focus is reaching people far from God. It's no different than a church plant. Right? 100%. Yeah. So everything about visualization is moving towards the same things that a church plant is going towards. You know, Jesus told us, I think I've talked about this before, just told us to expand the kingdom and make disciples. And Paul the Apostle said that we're going to do that through planting local churches. And every, every one of our churches that we have in Canada was a church plant at one point, but has lost its, you know - if you've lost your missional mojo and become plateaued or declining, sometimes you need help. And one of the stats that I found fascinating when we talked about visualization/multiplication - and I want to talk about one process thinking in a little bit. Because I think visualization multiplication should just be one process in the timeline. But one of the things that I think that was super interesting to me was that a church plant, after three to four years, their new conversion rate drops to a level of existing church. And what I think should happen, and I've advocated for this, is that a church plant at three, four or five years should actually do a revitalization process, built right in. Right. So that's why I think this, it's not, you know, two tracks side by side, or, you know, they're veering off. It's the same process, that every church should be a multiplying church. But in order to do that, you need to be healthy. So any thoughts on those things, specifically around one process thinking? Yeah. Gears working together. Right. Both sides working together. And the focus is always missional. We use the term re-envisioning. We use the term replanting. You know, so it's a lot of the same. It's the, you know, a church planter could be a replanter or a revitalizer. A person who's revitalized the church could plant. The characteristics of those leaders are catalytic. They're the same, kind of you have to be a catalytic, vision caster, managing change, all of those things, that have to happen. So it's very similar. Yeah. Michael, we've talked about this before of, you know, thinking like a church planter is actually a great way to think about visualization, because the things you need to think about in vitalization are the same things you need to think about as a church planter. I mean, you've done that. You've done the church planting thing. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. And that's the thing, right? Like, in some cases, one of the best ways to revitalize a church is, is to really sometimes what we actually need to do is just say, you know, we're going to actually push pause on this church for about six months. You know, the core who's a part of it, stay a part of it. Let's revision. Let's reimagine. And it's like what you said, Jeremiah, let's replant this and treat it like a church plant. You know, I can think of a couple examples where that's just what happened to a church. And, you know, it was kind of spinning some wheels. It just wasn't gaining traction. Let's try this idea. Let's try this idea. And what they needed to do, though, at the end of the day was, you know, let's just shut this down for a little bit and relaunch this. And I'm thinking of these examples and it's just, they're absolutely booming now. New disciples being made, people being baptized. And it's it's something that we -- Well, it's it's like what we said, right. It's not do we do this or do we do this. It's no, no, no. Let's do both of these. And sometimes it's merging them together and doing them at the same time. Right. A church will plateau when -- like, no church grows like this. A church always plateaus. And when it plateaus, what happens is the the activities that got them to that growth, they begin to double down on those activities, and then it begins to crust over and becomes the barrier for future growth. It doesn't matter if you're three years old or 20 or 100 years old. It's the same process. When you plateau, you actually, you keep reinforcing the things you did and it keeps you in plateau. Rather than re-imagining, re-envisioning and emerging to a new level of growth. And that's what happens in every church. Yeah. One of the things, Jeremiah, that - and this has happened to a couple different places I can think of Western Ontario district, in our movement - But in Alberta, where a larger, healthier church has taken on a replant, almost. Like what's working there? The church that needs to be replanted has to be humble enough to ask for help. That right across the board, hey? And when that happens, hopefully the church that comes in has a missional focus. And their focus isn't just to get bigger, but it's to multiply their ministries in that new locale. When that happens, it's amazing. We've certainly moved on to the dismantling of this objection. It didn't take us long because the reality is, is we actually agree with vitalization. If the word in -- The word is actually instead of, meaning that we pick one or the other. And Michael, you had a thought that I want to explore a little bit, because some people are actually--And Jeremiah, you'd know this and maybe you can give a comment as well-- that there are some leaders that are just geared better for visualization and others that are more, you know, focused on the multiplication side. There's just a different passion, maybe skill set. There's something that - maybe there's a more pastoral gifting versus an apostolic one, and they just seem to fit better. And so if we say you're either this or that, then what do we do with these leaders? They end up being on the outside looking in. Michael your thoughts? Yeah, I think it's important, especially with this conversation, to acknowledge God has wired us all differently. We're all unique people. Yeah. Like we said, different, different giftings, different perspectives on things. And it's really sad when someone's wired a certain way, and the church as a whole says, no, no, no, don't be like that. Be like this instead. And, you know, some people are just built, you know, they were just wired to be these fresh, blank page starters of - There's nothing there. I see what God could make this. And boom, you make that happen. Some people are wired to say, I see something right now that maybe isn't fully what God wants it to be, but oh, I see the beauty and the potential in this. And neither are wrong to be that. It's, let's discern who God has called us to be. And let's just -- Now, listen, sometimes we need to watch ourselves because sometimes it can be out of arrogance, of some people want to be, well, I want the story on the website to be, oh yes, it was 2000 and whatever when my name started this church plant and blah, blah. Versus, you know, 50 years ago this person did and this person came revitalized it. You know, sometimes it doesn't look as flashy. So I think we need to be careful of that and be self aware. But we need to we need to let people be who they are. And Paul, I remember you telling me a story years ago. I forget we are on a call of some sort. And you were telling, I can't remember the the pastor's name, but there was this pastor in Ontario that was going along the coast of the Hudson's Bay to these little, you know, fishing villages or, or this sort of thing. And he saw that these little villages didn't have a church, so he would stay there for a couple of months or something along those lines, start this new church, set up a pastor, and then go on to the next village. And he would just go throughout the Hudson's Bay. And it's just this beautiful picture of pioneering and adventure of just, you know, there's just nothing there. It's a blank page. And they're going, can you imagine going to this planter and saying, hey, this is great that you're doing this, but there's churches down south below that aren't as healthy as they need to be. So you have to stop doing what you're doing and come here. Like, that would just - it would be totally the opposite of what we should be saying. We need to be taking this person who's walking in their calling, walking in their gifting and say, run with this. So does that mean, though, that the churches down in the Toronto area at that time who maybe weren't the healthiest, does that mean they shouldn't revitalize, though, and get healthy? Absolutely not. Both of these are so, so important to do at the same time. At the same time, right? Yeah. We've seen pastors who who had led their church down, you know, who had into plateau, who have actually turned the church around. And that's an interesting thing, where they've learned new skills and they've taken on risk and they've stepped out in new things. And I, I think I want to acknowledge that reality is that there are pastors that, maybe think that's not their gift, but it actually is. 80% of pastors can lead this with help. We've seen pastors in our province revitalize one church, and then after four years, leave that church and go to a church that's lower and plateaued and take on the same task. So it's an amazing thing when you see leaders step into those callings and giftings and even churches that are now growing, now these pastors are finding themselves - they've never planted before - now they're finding themselves having to think about, okay, I want to plant a church over here. We gotta get a campus over here. I got to raise up leaders. So the gift mix. The gift mix is incredible. But you do have - you can't just stay where you are. You cannot stay here. You've gotta move forward. Yeah. And and also, we believe just that with humility and, you know, walking in, you know, God's grace. Well, a lot of these leaders can turn things around and can plant churches. People think, well, I could never plant a church. Yeah, but you have the Holy Spirit. You've got God helping you. You've got people that will champion you. I can't revitalize a church. Yes you can. Holy spirit can help you. And so, you know, we we have to remind ourselves that we don't have these limiting thoughts around either of these things. Like, well, that's only for so-and-so or that's only -- For us to just say, God, what do you want to do? And I'm going to lean into your strength and your power and your wisdom to do it, because I can't do it on my own strength. There isn't a pastor out there that can vitalize a church on his own strength. There isn't a pastor out there that can plant a church on his own strength. It has to be that deep reliance on the moving of God's Spirit in your life and using the gifts that God has given you for His - that He has gifted you with - for His glory. And so it's like reminding ourselves of the body of Christ. It's like, how can you just say, we're just going to vitalize churches, we're just going to plant. No, there's different gifts to the body. How can one hand to the foot and say, we don't need you? That is just not going to work. So, one of the things, Jeremiah, we always like to do is bring in the Bible to this conversation. Like, is this actually true? Is this something that -- And, Michael, you have some thoughts. I have some thoughts. And then Jeremiah, we'll lean over to you. Michael, what are your thoughts about this? You know, I guess I want to restate the counter statement,

which would be:

We should be revitalizing churches and planting new churches at the same time. Planting new churches does not mean abandoning of the existing churches. So is that in the Bible, Michael? Yes, it's definitely modeled in Scripture. And I just believe that men and women across the country can look at this example and say, you know what? If that's in Scripture, I can do that too. So in Acts chapter 16, there's Paul the Apostle and his crew that are traveling around, you know, and

this is what it says. In Acts 16:

4 it says, "As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions, reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. So the churches were strengthened in their faith and grew daily number." So you have this picture of Paul and this group traveling around building up existing churches, churches that are already established, getting even healthier than they are. And then look what happens right after. This famous dream happens, right, where Paul is sleeping. And it says during the night, Paul had a vision of a man from Macedonia standing and begging, come over and help us. So you have-- And right before that happened, Paul and his group, they're encouraging established churches and just, you know, making them better and and building them up. And then right after, you have Paul and his group going and going and starting brand new works, works that haven't happened before. And I think this is -- I love how it's not -- We didn't have to pick and choose like, here's one story of Paul doing this and here's another story of Paul. It's within the same story. Paul is doing both of these things. And it didn't say Paul only planted churches because that's what matters. And it doesn't say Paul only encouraged established churches because that's what mattered. No, no, Paul was doing both. And this is the model that God gives us in Scripture. That's excellent. Michael. I was reading, just picking up on that, a blog by John Beeson,

and he wrote:

Churches, like people, are intended to be streams, not ponds; Highways, not cul de sacs. The book of Acts shows us a healthy church multiplying itself across the Roman Empire and beyond. Paul is a church planter. Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus are coaching documents -- so we talk about coaching all the time, Jeremiah, for these elder pastors. So Paul's taking care of the existing churches. He's making sure that they haven't lost their their true north. Many forget these letters weren't letters to a single church. Paul wrote to one city church, and he didn't write just to one. He wrote to a network of churches. And these churches were so connected that Paul could write one letter and they would be read by all of them. And as you look at some of the church planting journey, as he strengthened these churches, guess what they did? Jerusalem started churches in Samaria and Caesarea, who started grandaughter churches in Antioch, who birthed great granddaughter churches in Galatia and Ephesus, and then the Ephesians, then multiplied, great great granddaughter churches in the cities of Colosse, Hierpolis, and Laodicea. So there was a strengthening of the church for multiplication. Jeremiah, any thoughts around this? Thing that gets me when I go to Revelation, and I see the Lord of the church blowing out the candle of the churches, and I wonder, where are those churches in Revelation? Like, did they close? And why? Disobedience, disobedience. And I, again, I don't care if you're one year old or 100 years old as a church, you have got to be obedient. Jesus said that you will bear fruit, right? John 15 and what's the fruit? The fruit is kingdom expansion. Witness. People coming to Christ. People following Jesus. Jesus says, I came. Why? To seek and save those who were lost. If the church is not about Christ's business, He will not bless that church because that's not His church. So I think it's also a call to be obedient no matter what. Health is a choice, and it's a hard choice. When I want to lose weight, I have to forego that donut from Tim Hortons. That's a tough choice for me. Health is a choice, and a lot of pastors have to make, and churches have to make, tough choices to be healthy. To follow Christ, even when He leads into places that are scary, even when He leads places that are hard. One of the things that, I know that in the vitalization process, one of the very first things that you and others across our nation, in other districts, they walk the church through a time of repentance. For disobedience, for not expanding the kingdom. For not focusing on making disciples. There's a sense of acknowledgment that has to happen first. And I think what can happen too, even in church planting world, is there is that initial push for reaching people, reaching people. But once you start growing - Michael, you would know this - once you start growing and expanding and managing some of those things, it's like, I just want to manage the people I have. It's really hard to reach more. Why would I want to make more work for me? But there has to be this sense of because we're obedient. And if we're disobedient, well, what do we got to do? We have to confess and repent. There's no way around it. There's no way around it. Thanks for sharing that. Because that's really important. This is all about obedience in the end. What is Jesus asking us to do? So the counter statement is

again:

We should be revitalizing churches and planting new ones at the same time. Planting new churches does not mean abandoning of existing churches. So since we believe this is our counter statement, what are some next steps, some practical things that we could do? Michael, pass it over to you. What can we do here? If we believe this to be true? Yeah. It takes a different mindset. Right. We're not choosing planting. We're not saying we're going to only church plant. We're not saying we're going to only revitalize. We're going to do both of these things. And kind of tying back to that original analogy that I gave at the beginning of, you know, you have someone has a field. It's not bringing in a harvest. You definitely don't add a second field. That's true. But the good news is, it's not just one person with the field. It's an entire community of, you know, stick with the -- we're really going with the farming analogy here -- but it's a whole community of farmers. And if some aren't doing well, true, maybe they shouldn't add a second. But the truth is, some farmers have some fields that are bringing in a huge return, and those farmers need to keep buying and need to keep expanding and maybe can go and help build others. And, you know, it's this false dichotomy, right? Do we revitalize or do we plant? There's lots of things that are both-and, right. And, like, investing into your relationship with your child and also investing into your relationship with your spouse. Right. Both of those need to be invested into. You can't choose one. Or do we eat healthy or do we exercise? Which one do we do? Well, no. We want to be healthy. We do both of those things, right. And we have examples of churches that do both. And our movement is a movement that does both. And I would just-- yeah, I would just challenge the mindset of all of us. I think we all get caught up into kind of where our default bias would lead us to. And I think it's just, you know what? Let's be okay with doing both of those and just celebrating and cheering on both of those, right? Yeah, 100%. Jeremiah, what do you think? What can we what are some practical things leaders can do out there to just kind of break down this mindset of either-or thinking and adopt a more both-and mindset. Community, exactly what was mentioned. You know, we are a family. We work together. We we are -- We have one mission, and that is to go and make disciples who make disciples. So whether you're taking on an existing church or planting a new church, you should be of the same mind. Church planters, multipliers, please keep doing what you're doing and celebrate when you're seeing new people come to Christ. When you're seeing -- Because you're speaking life into existing churches that haven't seen that for five, ten, 15 years and you're telling them, hey, it's possible. Don't just silo. Don't silo. Everybody work together. I don't like when I see some newer churches kind of treat the older churches like, Well, that's a has been. Please come back. Help. Exactly, help. Come back and help. Lean in. Don't just dismiss. And older churches shouldn't be getting defensive. I hear this all the time. Why do we need more churches? Let me tell you something, in Canada, if you filled up all the churches in every city, you still wouldn't have enough room for the people in the city, in the area, to come to Christ. So please don't limit. So I just think, I think the mission is clear. I don't care what your church looks like. Micro church, Mega church, home church. The mission is clear. Go and make disciples who make disciples. And if you're not doing that, you're plateaued. You're not doing that, you've mission drifted. So please keep a record of who's coming to Christ, you know, who's getting baptized, and then face those facts. If it's not happening, make the adjustments so that it happens. If people aren't becoming disciples and they're just staying as babies who are believers who act like babies, make the adjustments. Any church can do this, whether they're three months old or 100 years old, but you have to have a commitment to obedience and a commitment to the mission. Celebrating the win is so important, I think, because, when we see ourselves like--talking about the body of Christ, and you know just how we all work together --when one wins, we actually all win. Because we're all -- like, we're talking in our --we're launching a Multiple Network initiative 'Every Church a Multiplying Church'. And there's two ways. Some are going to plant, but everyone can partner. Because we're all in this together. There's no us and them. It's just we're all in it together. Getting back to the farming analogy. I heard this story. My grandpa had gotten sick. He was a farmer. And some neighbors in the farming community heard that he was sick and they stopped harvesting their crops. And made sure all of my grandpa's crops were in the storehouse before they even started on theirs. And this would be like-- When I heard that story, I'm just like, that's what church should be. If there's one church that's struggling, there should be other churches that come in and go, hey, we're here to help. And then celebrate each other's wins. Yes. Not be competitive. I don't like that. Jeremiah, you were on fire there. Like we can't be competitive. We're all in this together, and we have to see that one church winning means that we're all winning with them, and they're with us. And we're not doing well, then they feel the pain, too. Instead of these silos that just--- No, no, no, that's that's got to go. This both-and thinking really has to come to the forefront. Jeremiah, did you have something else to add? My 25 person church in downtown Edmonton here just recently participated in a plan to have a church in Calgary, and that to me should tell

every church leader:

Don't wait. Like just get involved somehow in multiplication. Find a way to invest in somebody who's got a vision and a dream to reach lost people in a different locale and get behind it. We didn't spend big, big money. We did some consultation. We supported in different ways financially, in prayer. But that's a part of us now. And we celebrate that church and our people are like looking around at the 25 of us going, well, why? Why would we plant a church in Calgary? And my answer to that is why not? Why not? Yeah, why not? We can all partner. Every single one of us can partner. Love that. And I know your church and I know the church you're talking about, and it's absolutely brilliant. Wow. That's so cool. Because even a partnership in a small way is saying, we're behind you. We're going to win together. I love that. Michael, do you have any closing thoughts before we sign off today? Yeah. Well, just summarizing what you two were just talking about. At the end of the day, it's not about, Oh, is it a new church? Is it a revitalized church? Honestly, like, who cares what the label. Is it making disciples? Is the kingdom moving forward? Then do it, you know. And guess what, that means taking new ground with, you know, the blank page. A community without a church. It means that. But it also means, hey, this church probably isn't the healthiest. Let's make sure we can get it healthy. It's both. It's both of those things together. And if we can live with that mindset, our fellowship has a beautiful future. I agree. Jeremiah, you guys have created a ton of resources. Where can we find them? How can we get access to them? ChurchVitalization.ca is kind of our hub for all things church vitalization. We also have a vitalization course on Thinkific. So if you just go ABNWTThinkific you'll find a free course there. Everything's free. We want to assist and help. And all of our articles and blogs on reaching lost people and training is all found on ABNWT.com. Yeah. And just because you're a church plant doesn't mean you can't take advantage of those great resources there. Like it's -- there's a lot of things that are going to help you grow your church and see people get saved. We have a website as well, PAOCMultiply.com. Lots of resources there.

And we're launching something new:

EveryChurch.ca. We're putting some new resources on that landing page as well. So we want to help you however we can. Thanks, Jeremiah, for jumping on today, Michael, for co-hosting as well. And just, thanks for your time, effort and thoughts. And, we're excited about great days ahead in Canada. Thanks, guys, for jumping on today. See ya. Thank you, Paul, for all you do. Thank you. Well, thanks for listening today. We trust this conversation was encouraging. If you want more information on church multiplication resources, or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey,

reach out to us by email:

MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org. Until next time.