Multiply Network Podcast
Multiply Network Podcast
The 8 Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication - Objection #7 - "It's Too Risky" with Paul Fraser, Michael Bronson and John Albiston
This is our 7th Most Common Objection to Church Multiplication, "It's Too Risky". Everything we do in life carries some form of risk, you can't eliminate it all. But you don't have to be unwise and risky either. There are so many great resources, strategies, training and coaching that helps set up a new disciple-making communities for success way better than in the past. We discuss these things and more with our special guest John Albiston from the ABNWT District Resource centre. Check it out!
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Multiple Network Podcast. My name is Paul Fraser and so grateful that you're joining us on number seven of our Eight Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication. It's part of our Every Church a Multiplying Church initiative. We're asking all of our churches in our tribe to be multiplying churches by being planting churches or partnering churches. And we're trying to dismantle some of those objections with this podcast to help encourage our pastors and leaders to be multipliers and to lead multiplying churches. And thank goodness I don't have to host this podcast by myself. Michael Bronson is back with us again in this series. Michael, thanks so much for jumping on. How are you today? I'm doing well, Paul. I've missed you. I feel like it's been a long time. I feel like --. Why is it that we only hang out during these podcasts? What's going on here, Paul? What's going on? Well, probably the biggest reason is you live in one side of the country and I live on the other. Oh. yeah, yeah. Okay. I'll give you a pass on that. Yeah, Thank you. I do appreciate you leaning in so well. Michael, I thought our podcast was going viral a couple of weeks ago, only to find out that I think either one person was super eager, or a couple of people were super eager and downloaded every single one of our episodes. Or it was a bot. But either way, we're grateful for the stats. So thank you to the bot or the person. Appreciate you leaning in. So today we are talking about Objection Number Seven, which is it's too risky, the work is too hard, and it's risky to be involved in church multiplication. And to solve all of our problems, folks, we have a great guest today. John Albiston from Edmonton area and he works at the district office here. He's an effectiveness coach, is on our Multiply Network lead team and been a part of church multiplication and planting and multi sites and all sorts of things in helping churches get turnaround. John, thanks for coming on and helping us solve this problem. It's good to be here. It's good to have you. So let's jump in. What's the legitimate argument for the work is too hard. It's too risky to be involved in church multiplication. John, what do you think? What's the legitimacy here? I'm sure you've heard this before. Where do you think it finds its roots? Well, I think there's a difference between risk and being risky. And I think it's important to understand that. So pretty much every day I put myself in a several thousand pound metal box and go flying down the road at 110, 120 clicks. And there's risk in doing that. There's risk in driving. I make one wrong move and I'm dead. My family's dead. Other families are dead. Like, there's a significant amount of risk in driving, but that doesn't mean I have to be a risky driver. Right. Those are two very, very, very different things. There's things that I can do to significantly mitigate that risk. And the same thing with church planting. Yeah, there's risk in church planting, but that doesn't mean you have to be a risky church planter. Yeah, that's right. Michael, what do you think? Where's the legitimacy here? Where does this find its roots? Yeah. Well, we all have heard stories. The successful stories, which has been awesome, you know, of, This happened and this happened. It was so easy. But then you also hear the opposite end, where it's, Oh yeah, it totally failed. And now my family, you know, how do I provide for my family? What do I do here? And listen, like, church planting and being involved in church multiplication, it's hard work. And there's a cost and there's a sacrifice to it. And just like what John was saying, there is that risk behind it. But of course, we know - and this what we're gonna be talking about today - that it's obviously going to be worth it. And you know, I remember one of -- a great memory that I have of starting a church is I remember I was pushing a porta potty down the road to an event that we were doing. It got dropped off at the wrong spot. And, you know, people are honking at me driving by, this sort of thing. And I'm just thinking, Plant the church, they said. This will be great, they said. And, you know, later on that afternoon, I had to wear the Mario costume, you know, in the middle of the summer. It's so hot. It's like, this is, this is really hard work. And, you know, will people even come to this event that we're trying to run to show the kindness of who God is to the community? And like, it's, it's a risk. But I really like what you just said there, John. It doesn't have to be risky. And there's a difference between risk and riskiness. And, you know, I like to think of it as there's almost like a foolish risk where it's, okay, this is just almost incompetence. Why did you think that would work? That was just like you were so in the sky. Did you pray about that? Like, why are you doing that? Versus a healthy risk where it's, Okay, Lord, you're calling us to this. If this doesn't work out, we're in big trouble, but God, we're trusting you. So there's a big difference there between that healthy risk and foolish risk, which I'm excited to talk about today. Yeah, I think some of this argument pops up when the church planter or the church feels like they have an unusual amount of ownership for it. And not understanding that it's God who's actually the one who's taking the risk - because it's His church. We're obedient. And so when I hear people say it's too risky, I'm like, for who? If God-- if God's asking you to do it, then who is it actually risky for? Have you--? Maybe the risk is did you hear from God? And I guess that could be part of it. It's like, well, we want to be good stewards and don't want to mess it up. And I understand all those things. But I have found that people who get worked up about the risk factor, or the amount of hard work it takes, they've heard too many negative stories -- which, maybe that's our fault as organizational leaders sometimes, where we don't share enough positive stories -- or they're taking too much ownership in it. And it's becomes risky because now, if you own it, then you get the success for when it goes. But then you also have to own the failure when it doesn't go. And so I just think that this shows up sometimes- if we check our motives and we're using this as an argument not to plant - we have to ask ourselves, are we taking too much ownership in this? And can we just again, just push this towards obedience as opposed to making some sort of risk or risky endeavor? And so, you know, as we talk about this now - and I think we talked about a little bit already - where does this not hold water now? Like where does this not like, Okay-- You know, I shared a few things about, you know, ownership. John, where do you think this breaks down? Like that may be your argument, but it doesn't hold up. Well, there's definitely, like, ways to plant a church where you're greatly reducing that risk. When I look at a risky driver, what I'm looking at is someone who didn't take things very seriously and weren't very sober minded or sometimes not even literally sober. And that's why they're risky driver. And the same thing with a church plant is, quite frankly, there is a significant amount of responsibility and we have to be sober minded about it. And when we look at, Do I have a team, Do I have the calling, Do I have the skills in order to do that? Well, those are good questions to ask. Sometimes I think that questions of risk are ultimately questions of fear. And there are two unhealthy responses to fear that I see in church planting.
One is:that's scary so I'm going to run away. That's not a healthy response to fear. The other, and I see this too,
is:that's scary so I'm going to ignore it. And so I see people going off to try to plant the church half cocked, and that's a risky church plant. That you haven't actually thought through things very much. You haven't made a lot of preparation. And now that's a risky plant. I think the best way of dealing with the fear is to go through the fear. And what I mean by that is if I'm a planter and, well, I'm afraid that nobody's going to come. Okay, let's go through that fear. Why are you afraid of that? Well, like, I haven't done things in the past that have really attracted crowds before. Okay, is there somebody out there who might know something that I don't who's good at this? Because now that I've identified, I'm not sure if I know how to get somebody to come. Well, now I know that there's a specific skill I need to acquire. There's specific partnerships I need to make, the specific coaches I need to connect with to help me with that fear. If my fear is, Well, you know what? I don't know if I can lead a stranger to Christ. Okay. Don't ignore that fear. That's important. That also is a skill set. Well, if you're not sure, is there any way you can gain that skill set? Are there coaches? Are there people that I can talk to who can teach me how to lead a stranger to Christ? You know, I'm not sure if we're going to have enough money. Okay. Don't ignore that fear. Go through that fear. Is there somebody I can talk to who can help me with the financing? But that is the healthy way of dealing with with fear is to go through the fear and face the fear. The cocky, 'I don't need to listen to anybody church plants'. Right. That's not courage. That's avoidance. And that's not the healthy way of dealing with things. John, I think you make a good point regarding risk and responsibility. Where there's a responsibility and that's where it might feel risky. And I thought that was a really good way to describe that, because I do think the responsibility can feel overwhelming, the responsibility can feel challenging and risky. But really, you can't avoid responsibility if you're launching out in this. There's going to be some responsibility that you have and it's going to create some fear, potentially. Love your thoughts around fear. Michael, your thoughts? Where do you think this objection isn't going to really stand the test of time? Yeah, and the reason why we're bringing it up today is because I think just as as humans, there's this natural tendency to think, no, this could go wrong. This could go wrong, this could go wrong. I remember hearing a story. This was before I planted a church where I think it was somewhere in the States. But there was 200 people on opening Sunday, you know. And, you know, this is --. They left, these two church planters left on top of the world. Wow. 200 people believe in our in our vision of what God's doing in this community. This is so exciting. This is great. And then the next week, they come back. They they do it all over again for the next Sunday. And there were 35 people that showed up, and there's over 200 chairs set up for this congregation. And I was just hearing their story about how they were just so discouraged of, Oh, God, I thought you were doing this, but I guess you're not doing this and this sort of thing. And I guess it was more of their friends and family and well-wishers that came, or people from other churches that were trying to show that support. So I've got this story in the back of my mind as we're now starting this church and in Binbrook. And I went through the same thing when we started in Dundas. And I think anyone that's has planted a church kind of relates with this, or anyone that is in the process of planting the church relates with that feeling of absolute terror of, Okay, I've moved my family, I've quit my job. I've kind of put it all on the line here. But is this actually, is this actually going to work? And I really like what John said there, that we push through the fear. We don't run from it. We don't avoid it. You know what? This is actually a part of walking as a disciple of Jesus. He's asking us to do things that sometimes are terrifying. He asks us to do things sometimes that take that trust, and just that level of faith that we haven't been to before. We haven't had to show this level of faith yet in certain ways. And I think that's just part of being a disciple and especially being a leader in God's kingdom. You know, how how are we going to call others to take risks if we ourself aren't taking that risk? And, oh, I'm still stressed over thinking of that first day, of kinda how scary it was. But it's--. I love that. You push through the fear. It's yeah, it's --. Let's acknowledge there's going to be some fear here. There's going to be some risk here. It's going to be hard work. But you push through it knowing who God is, knowing that if God's called us to it, it's okay if 200 people come, it's okay if 35 people come. It's actually okay. Right. And I think it's--. We were talking about this earlier, but I think almost we need to redefine what success is. Success isn't whether people come on a Sunday morning or not. It's not. It's not, oh, how many chairs did you have to set up? Success is, Okay, God, if you've asked me to do it. Okay, I'll do that. And I love what you were saying earlier,Paul, is the risk actually isn't mine to carry. And I actually don't need to stress over whether people come or not because I've done the work. I've gone through the process. I follow, as you said, God, I'm being obedient. So whatever happens, it's actually okay. It's actually success no matter where we land. Narratives around this argument objection actually are the fuel for it, I would say. Because the negative stories are like, Whoa, that was a lot of risk. But then also the positive ones, the rags to riches stories on church planting, I don't think help us either. And those are the ones that get staged. And they say, we could never be like them. We started in a garage with three people. I heard of one recently where they literally started in like a working barn. They couldn't find any other location. And now they're a church of thousands of people in several locations. Or I heard another one. They moved -- You talked about moved-- with just a few couples to a neighborhood that had no church. And they, you know, maxed out their credit cards for a sound system. And if God didn't show up --. And you're sitting there going, whoa, how could I ever be like them? That is crazy. And you never hear the stories
of:we got an assessment. We got trained. We developed a launch plan and a launch team. We raised money. Had organizational partnership. We have ongoing coaching. And we have seen two or 3 or 4 churches start as a result. And we keep repeat--. Because it's not as glamorous. And so I think part of it is we need to tell those stories of just, like, everyday people who went through the processes, did the right things. Because when I first heard of church planting, I heard of all the closures. One in every three closures, or eight out of ten churches that start close. Let me share some stats with you from our Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada Fellowship from 2010 to 2020. That 88% of the self-governing churches we started in that decade were still around December 31st, 2019, and 90% of the closures of our churches in that ten year period were ten years or older. I think -- I think we've figured out a way to do sustainable church planting. And I hear this right across the board. You know, John, we go to different conferences and we hear that the success is happening. And this idea of like, you can actually mitigate the risk with good planning, good steps of faith, good fundraising, good coaching, training, assessment, all of it. And you can see success. So, you know, again, I don't know --. I can understand hearing the negative stories, hearing the positive stories, how it could bring some tension and maybe fear into us. But when when I look at these stats I get encouraged and go, no, no, I the both the positive and the negative stories-- okay, great. They're great stories, the positive ones. Negative ones are sober reminders. But the mass majority of people in the middle are just like you did, Michael. You went through the process, you planted, you grew the church, you grew your team. Like any comments, Michael, on that? Yeah. You know what that, what you just said, reminds me of. I remember hearing a story of Ed Stetzer, who has written a couple of books on church planting. He's planted a couple of churches sort of thing. He was at a conference once with two other church planters, so there's three church planters on stage. And yeah, the one was a megachurch and we started from nothing and look- 5000 people. And then the other one is that, yeah, we started, we put our house-- we remortgaged our house and now there's 10,000 people. And then I got to Ed's part and he said he just really felt for the average church planter in the room that these stories, as incredible as there are, they actually might be pretty discouraging. So he was like, I'm just going to be fully honest with what my story was. He said, yeah, we worked with our denomination, went through the process, and our church plant's about 65, 75 people. And you know what, though? We've been baptizing people and people have been moving in and looking for a church and there's new disciples being made. And yeah, it's not a glamorous story, but the Kingdom of God is moving forward. And I just remember listening to that and just like they were almost like, this was this weight. It was like, I don't need to be at the megachurch. I don't need to be, you know, all these legendary pastors with the epic stories. Am I just being faithful in what God's doing? Am I just trying to listen, God, what are you doing? Okay, let me go do that. Even if the numbers are not thousands of people, even if it's just tens of people or dozens of people. You know, in some context starting off, even just 1 or 2 people to start. Perfect. Like, that's actually okay. And I don't think we talk about that enough. John, what do you think? Like when you when you hear, you know, some of those rags to riches stories or the negative ones, what comes to your mind about this narrative around church multiplication being risky? Or you need to be risky for it to be successful? Well, I mean, you need to take risk. Like I don't think we need to be risky because that's being irresponsible. And I mean, I think-- when I think of some of the negative stories, the negative stories that I know of personally, where things didn't work out is because people were being risky. They weren't going through assessment. They didn't have a plan. They weren't looking for coaching. And quite frankly, they weren't teachable. Like, I mean, that's such an important character thing-- Oh,my goodness.-- to develop as a church planter and quite frankly, as a pastor, if you're going to succeed as a pastor, a teachable heart. You know, these cocky don't tell me what to do. I know what I'm going to do. Those are the ones who crash and burn. But, I mean, there's things we can learn. I mean, when someone goes off half cocked, I have no plan. I have no strategy. I have no coaching and I'm just going to do things my way. Don't bother me with any of that. And then they the crash and burn. Okay, pay attention to that. Don't be like that guy. If you're going to plant a church, get coaching. Build a good team. Arrange good finance. I mean, there's things you can do that greatly, greatly, greatly improve your chances of success. Again, just like me driving to the office. There's a lot of things that I do that greatly improve my chance of making it to the office alive. You know, Am I drunk or high? No. Okay, well, that's one step. Is my car falling apart? Are my brake lights not working? Well, making sure the car's in working order. That's another step. Did I ever read the driver's manual? Do I know the rules of the road? Did I, you know, get a driver's license? Am I distracted? I mean, there's so many things that I do that reduce the risk so that, quite frankly, I can drive to the office safely. And we all do this. Church planting isn't that much different. There are things that we can do to reduce that risk. Now, is God the one who's always powering things? Yes. So we should never take, you know, credit. You know, as the Bible says, Paul planted Apollos watered, but God makes the seed grow. But that doesn't mean that Paul and Apollos, you know, just sat back and did nothing and God just made seeds grow. Every single farmer on the planet, there's like there's no farmer on the planet who can make a seed grow. But it doesn't mean that the farmer doesn't have a job to do, you know? And if the job is--. If the farmer is diligent and has thought through, Okay, I need to till the soil, I need to plant the seeds, I need to water the seeds, I need to pull the weeds. Boy, those seeds grow a lot more. And same thing as a pastor and as a church planter. If we take care of our responsibilities, God's going to come in and He's going to make the seeds grow. We can count on Him. Just like the farmer can count on God to make the seed grow. So long as the farmer does his part. We just have to do our part and not go off half cocked. Yeah. No, that's good. Because one of the things I was going to ask and you kind of answered it is how do we mitigate risk? And you know, some of the things I mentioned, you mentioned, can help mitigate risk when churches and leaders think about planting and multiplying. But the risk is so -- I don't know how to phrase this -- but the risk is, are we going to be successful or not? Isn't that it? Like, isn't that what the risk is about? Like, the risk isn't like, Oh, we started. The risk is, Did we start and were we successful? And one of the things that I think might help us get through this objection is redefining success. Michael, do you have any thoughts about what we can do to maybe redefine success? Yeah, well, it's like we were talking earlier, right? And we've probably talked about this on previous podcasts and this sort of thing. But what we need to do is we need to be prophetic leaders. We need to be people who are listening to God's voice. Okay God, where are you actually leading us to? And then we do it. And then, like we've been talking about this whole episode, is that God takes ownership over success. You know, and whatever happens, it's actually okay as long as we're following God's Spirit, as long as we're keeping in step with God's Spirit. And, you know, I love the stories in Scripture as the examples given to us. Like you've got Paul, who would go from city to city, you know, starting these churches with his friends and with his team and this sort of thing. But the one time he's stoned to death outside of the city and it's kind of like, yeah, real successful, Paul. Great job. You're there bloody and beaten up and broken. But I just love how even through that, what does Paul do? He gets back up and goes back to the city, you know, and encourages the church that's there and encourages the leaders that are there. So success looks so different for different people. The point is, are we doing what God wants us to be doing? And listen, in that story, yeah, it's hard work. Like, that wasn't easy -- or I'm assuming here -- that wasn't easy for Paul to stand back up again, covered, beaten, covered in blood, and just walk boldly back into that city. Like, it takes courage. It takes faith. It takes looking at that risk and saying, I'm going to push through this, But at the end of the day, it's not on our shoulders. Whether it's successful or not, it's completely on God's. John, you've worked with lots of churches in around, but then also with planting, you've had experience in that. You and I have chatted about how metrics need to change probably, and how we need to be thinking about what does successful church look like. Can you talk to that a little bit? And then also how it actually looks for an individual church to like--. So, for example, a church in a small town in rural Alberta probably can't have the same production, whatever, same impact, or even the same call, as maybe a church in a suburban area to reach and, you know --. Can you talk about what those metrics might need to be in the future, to shift? And then also talk about how individual success matters? Because in the end, God's going to ask us were we faithful with what we were asked to do, not being faithful with someone else's call. Yeah, I think that's a great question, Paul. I think when it comes to metrics, the most helpful metrics -- sometimes people call them lead metrics. Are we measuring the things that are most likely to lead to the results we want? And so let's take evangelism as an example. Now, I have exactly zero control over whether somebody responds to the gospel. Now, I care if they respond to the gospel, but I've got zero control. But what I do have control over is, Am I initiating conversations? And so we want to measure the things that we have control over, that have the potential to lead to the salvations. So, instead of necessarily focusing on measuring the salvation, which I have no control over, why don't I measure how many times I present the gospel? Why don't I measure the number of times that I'm trying to connect with people? Because those are the things that really matter. And I mean, the two are definitely linked, but one is my responsibility. The others is their responsibility. God's responsibility. I don't have much to do about that. But I can measure the things that I do. And I think those are the most important things for us to measure. Sometimes people call it about celebrating the attempt. Like, did you get up to the plate? Did you swing the bat? Because if you never get up to the plate and you never swinging the back, guess what? You're not going to hit any homeruns. But let's celebrate our part of the responsibility and not worry as much about how other people are responding. If that makes any sense. Yeah. Yeah. And then also just talk about how, you know, your call is going to be different than someone else's. And I think Howard Hendricks said this - Dr. Howard Hendricks said, comparison is the highest form of carnality, meaning we're never more human than when we're comparing. And I think that gets -- that becomes a real challenge, especially for church planters, when they hear the big stories, the rags to riches stories. How do you encourage a planter or a church to stay at it, to be faithful? Because sometimes it does take a while for that crop, that harvest to grow. Well, I think just when we talked a little bit about facing your fears and going through them, same thing is when you're facing challenges and difficulties. To face them and going through them. So, if there's a specific issue in your church plant that you're struggling with, nobody's ever coming. Okay, well, don't ignore that. Don't run away from that. But ask, Do I know a coach who's had some success at dealing with that issue? Do I know another pastor who's had success at dealing with that issue? Is there something I can learn from them in order to deal with that? If we've got a problem- and this is a problem a number of churches have - where, no, no, no, we get lots of people who come, but they only come once and they never come back. Okay, that is unfortunate. But don't ignore that. Go through that. Okay, how can I find out with through connections with other church planters, other pastors, with coaches. Can you help me figure out what's going wrong here? Can you help me figure out how to solve this issue? But it's always going to be looking--. Like if something's not going according to expectation, don't ignore that. First, pray about it. But then, like, don't hold the rest of the body of Christ in contempt. I mean, we're a body of Christ for a reason. We're supposed to rely on each other. We're supposed to depend on each other. We're supposed to teach and coach and encourage each other. So if we are facing a challenge in a certain area in our church plant, hey, reach out to the body. That's what we're here for. Yeah. And I totally agree with that, that don't actually be in competition with someone because you're actually on the same team. So, like, if that that leader that knows how to grow a church and knows how to keep first time guests and you know on ramp people with good evangelism and all of that, reach out. You know, you're not -- you can't be great at everything. And sometimes we ask planters and --. That's why it's so important to plant with the team, because you can't be all things to all people. Oh, absolutely. You need you need help and--. No, that's really, really good. Michael, you have a scripture for us that that ties into this thing, this topic we are discussing today. Yes, that's right. So for all of us wondering, is it worth the risk? You know, it's way too risky. It's way too hard to do. Like, is this really worth it? I just want to read you Hebrews
11:6. And this is a classic verse. We all know it. It says, And without faith, it is impossible to please God because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. And it's just, it's a very blunt statement, right? If you want to please God, it's going to take faith. It's it's going to--. And faith shows trust, right? And I know it's a difficult question that we have to ask ourselves, and it kind of hurts if we're actually being honest. But in this area of multiplication, do we trust God that He's going to come through? If He's leading us to something do we really trust that He's able to do it? Do we really trust that it's going to be worth it in the end? Do we really trust that the hard work, that there's this reward on the other side that actually was worth going through? And, you know, I think I would challenge every single person listening today. Let's honestly ask ourselves, do we have the faith for that? Do we have the trust for that? And and if not, we probably we probably need to push ourselves on that and challenge ourselves on that. Yeah, like, I can almost hear someone out there saying, Well, if I have total faith and trust in God, is there any risk involved? But boy, I mean, that would that's an interesting --. You know, that's an interesting thing to think about. Like, if I am so convinced that God has spoke, that He is faithful and I totally trust Him, where's the risk then? Like, where is the risk? And Lord, help my faith. I want to be there. I want to have that kind of -- that kind of level. And you know what? I talk with some people - and I could list off the names of them and you would know them - that that's how they live. God's going to come through. I am so convinced. This isn't a risk. We have to do this, or we're planting this, or we're going here, and I'm convinced that God --. And it just like, I'm amazed at their faith. Yeah. And can we just affirm every person who has planted a church listening to this right now? Is that, yeah, it may be scary during, but the fact that you did it shows you believed God could do it. So just Gold Star. Well done. Thumbs up. High five. Well done. Ten points. You get ten points. You redeemed them at the end of the podcast for something. So here's the objection we've been, you know, batting around
the room like a pinata:The work is too hard and risky to be involved in church multiplication.
So here's our counter statement:It's God's church. So it's His risk and our obedience. And -- and I love this -- the result of new disciples is worth the hard work and risk of church multiplication. This week, I've had 3 or 4 conversations of people who are going to be planting a church or kicking tires on it. And as I kind of overview the process and all the different things they have to do and the, you know, the coaching, the training, the fundraising and all these different things and you just see the look on their face like, Whoa, this is this is big. This is a big step. And I remind them. I say, Okay, close your eyes for a second and I want you to picture that first mom and dad with their family that come to your church. Someone invited them, and they respond to Jesus for the first time. That young adult, that college career student that's struggling, can't find community, you know, trying to explore everything in the world and finding hopelessness and empty. And they hear a message of the gospel and respond. I want you to picture that first person that comes to Jesus in your church plant. What are you going to say? And they almost always say it will be worth it. It's worth it. And that's what we have to keep front and center. It's not --. Jesus didn't actually tell us to plant churches. He told us to make disciples and expand the kingdom. That's what church -- church multiplication has to be, always be, in service of that. So if we believe that it's God's church, so it's His risk and our obedience, and the result of new disciples is worth the hard work and risk of multiplication. Since we believe this, what are some next steps, John, that we need to do? The understanding that it's God's church, I think is really important on a number of different levels, but one of them even is connected to the issue of risk. When I look at unsuccessful church plants, the attitude of the planter wasn't that this is God's church, but it was that this was my church, and I was going to plant the kind of church that I thought was the right thing to do that's going to do things my way. And it's been a real preference driven church. And I remember one night -- and actually you might even have been there, Paul, this was years ago at an assessment in Calgary -- the church planter's motivation for planting a church is, Finally there's going to be a church that's going to do church doctrine my way. Man, that's --. When the church becomes all about your church and doing things your way --. Man, you just took the risk element and just shot it through the roof. That is really, really risky. When it's God's church, the risk goes down dramatically, not only because it's God's strong arm that's fueling the church, but when we start doing things God's way and we lower our pride and are doing things in submission to Him and we're having those open and teachable hearts. Boy, that makes such a difference in our chances of this actually going. When we don't look at it as God's church yet, that is a recipe for disaster. That's so important. Yeah, I think it comes down to just remembering our identity. Who are we? We're children of God. We belong to God's kingdom. We're leaders in God's kingdom. He's given us authority. He has given us the ability and the power to do this. Not because we're good, but because He's good and He's with us. So let's go live that out. You know, like, if He's with us, who who could be against us? Like, you can't stop what God is doing in this world. And the fact that He's included us in this--. Like, let's just go. Enjoy the ride. Listen, I know it's like a mountain in front of you. I know it's so much work. I know there's a huge cost to being a disciple. There's huge cost to making disciples. It's so much work. Yeah, it feels risky sometimes. But if God's called us to it, it's all going to work out in the end, and it's worth it. So I think just, we just need to remind ourselves. This is who we are. We're Kingdom of God people, so let's go live it out. Yeah, I think I agree with both both of you guys on your thoughts about it's God's church and that we actually just have to go out and do it believing that He's going to help us with it. But, you know this, that making disciples is also inconvenient and uncomfortable sometimes. And I think we've got to be okay with embracing that. That it's not just going to be a tidy 9 to 5 with a, you know, 9 to 5 Monday to Friday with a 9 to 11, and then leave me alone. You know, don't don't talk to me. Because you're going to have to --. Because one of the things I tell people early on, and I'm trying to discern quickly, Are you trying to plant a church or are you trying to plant to service? Because how you're talking right now sounds like you just want to have people come to your church and and hear you talk. And I'm sure you have a lot of great things to say. And I think Sunday gatherings, or Wednesdays, or whatever your weekly gathering is, is super important. But planting a church or doing a campus is so much more- or a micro church - is doing so much more than just organizing programs. It's doing life together with people, which means if we're about making disciples and that's the end goal and expanding the kingdom and we're pushing past the risk to do that, we also have to be aware that what we're signing up for is inconvenience. And you know -- Michael, you put here in the notes -- it can be uncomfortable. And you get in tough spots having to try to figure things out. But let's remember that God's with us in it and we don't have to do it alone. And you should never be doing a multiplication effort alone. There should be a team that you have there with you on site, but then there should also be a team behind you. One of the things we're trying to do in our fellowship is raise up a thousand people to pray every single month for church multiplication efforts in Canada. And the reason why we do that is I want a planter who has maybe 50 people at their church --and they're working hard and they're spending time with these people --And growing the church, people are getting saved and baptized. And they're on a gym floor. And they can they can get up with the confidence, knowing a thousand people prayed for them this month, and maybe even by name if they knew them. Like, just like -- I want you to know that you're never in this alone. And to me, that helps mitigate risk too, is that when you got other people around you--? So we got to do this together. It's true we are better together. John, we'll start with you. Any final thoughts, any closing thoughts or encouragement? And then Michael, over to you and then we'll close off the podcast. Well, I think just sort of echoing what Michael had said about understanding our own identity. If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, the most famous sermon in history, who did Jesus say was the light of the world? He said, You are the light of the world. He said, you are the salt of the earth. So God has given us this amazing calling.
I think of like Ephesians 2:10, one of my favorite verses. You are God's masterpiece. Created anew in Christ, destined to do great things. And I think we need to take that and we need to own that. And we demonstrate our faith by our obedience. Great. Thanks, John. Michael, your thoughts? Yeah, I would just encourage everyone listening. It's worth it. The costs that we're paying by taking the risk and going through all the hard work, it's worth it for new disciples. You know, I was just -- just the other day, it was like 12,
12:30 at night. Get a text. Hey, are you awake, Pastor? And it's someone who's been coming to church the last three months. New Christian, and just going through some relationship problems. So I'm like, Yeah, yeah, sure, we can call real quick. But it was great just having that call, just for 45 minutes. Just going through. Yeah. Well, what about this? You know, God thinks this of your relationship. You know, God would want you to do this in this area and this sort of thing. And just --. I remember just the emotional toll it was taking on me. But I remember hanging up that phone afterwards and just thinking about, here's a new Christian that's being discipled, learning what it means to follow Jesus, how to view things the way Jesus views things. And just thinking, yes, like this is what it's all about. This is why we do what we do. All of the hard work to get here, all worth it for moments like that. So I just want to encourage you. It is worth it. Keep going. You're doing great. Guys, thanks so much for being a part -- Michael, as always, for being co host and John, for jumping on as our guest today. Thanks for being a part of this conversation. Thanks for having us. Well, we've got some resources for you at EveryChurch.ca. One of the things that we like to share are these free resources. We have something for you there called a Readiness Assessment. So maybe you're sitting there thinking, is our church ready to multiply? I want to push past this risk. I don't want this to be something that is an objection that we're allowing to get in our way of what God has for us. This Readiness Assessment might help you understand where your church is at. Lists off seven areas, that's just a quick self-assessment, that we think you need to be proficient in as a church to be a multiplying church. So there's a Readiness Assessment there for you at EveryChurch.ca. John and others are a part of ChurchVitalization.ca. So there's lots of things on just like keeping your church vital, good videos, good resources. There's modules, training that's available for you. So we want you to check that out. ChurchVitalization.ca. And you're going to find a lot of great stuff there. One of the things we've discovered is that, in the first 3 to 4 years of church plants, we see a real uptick in salvation. But by year four and five, the church salvation numbers drop to that of existing churches. So you need to be constantly looking at how can we keep our systems in our processes and just our heart for evangelism going. ChurchVitalization.ca will help you with that. Again, thanks so much for jumping on. We've only got one more objection that we're going to be talking about, and so hopefully you'll tune in for that. Thanks so much for jumping on today and listening to our podcast. Have a great day. Well, thanks for listening. Today we trust this conversation was encouraging. If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey, reach out to us by email. MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org. Until next time.