The 8 Most Common Objectives to Church Multiplication - Objection #8 "Leaders Who Plant Have Unhealthy Motives" with Paul Fraser, Michael Bronson and Sam Sibley

This the 8th and final episode of our series on the 8 Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication. This last one is about "Leaders Who Plant Have Unhealthy Motives". Check out what our hosts and guest have to say about the legitimacy of this objection but how it shouldn't be a reason for leaders and churches to still multiply. Thanks to Sam Sibley from the Western Ontario District office for joining us in this podcast!

Transcript

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Hey everyone, welcome to the Multiple Network podcast. My name is Paul Fraser. Thanks for jumping on today, as we finish up - as part of our Every Church A Multiplying Church initiative - Eight Objections to Church Multiplication. And we are on the last episode. I know this has taken a while, but it will be worth it, I'm sure of it, for you. It's going to be great. And it's great because we're welcoming back the co-host of this series, Michael Bronson. And Michael, how are you today in sunny Binbrook or Dundas? Where are you at today? Binbrook today. Binbrook today. Good to see you, Paul. I can't believe it's been eight already. I don't --. Well, it depends. Sometimes it feels like it's only been two. Sometimes it feels like it's been 20. So I don't know that episode we're on. But, this is great. This is great. It's good to see you. Well, we had goals. We had goals of having this done in the fall. But here we are today at number eight. And hey, we're fulfilling our vows. We said we were going to do eight and we're going to do eight. And maybe we've saved the best for last. Oh, I like that. I like that. Yeah. You know, you saved the best for last...(singing) What song is that? You don't even know that. You don't even know that song. Never mind. No, who is--? What song is it? Let's welcome on the guest before this gets out of control.(Laughter) We are so excited to have a very good friend of mine and a friend of the Multiply Network too. He currently works as a Regional Director for the Western Ontario District and oversees many, many, many churches, along with the leadership team there. He's been a church planter. He's been a senior pastor. He's also, while he was senior pastor, help plant another church. He's done a lot of things that I--. He's been to New Zealand, I think, to see the Lord of the Rings, where they filmed the Lord of the Rings. I guess a big Lord of the Rings guy. And an excellent carpenter. Ladies and gentlemen, would you welcome to the podcast, Sam Sibley! Dada ta da da da! Hey everybody. So tell us about The Lord of the Rings trip. Yeah. Actually, it was more my son that was interested in it that. I was just interested in the, just the adventure. So, we went for two weeks, fantastic trip. I mean, you can't go wrong going to New Zealand. It's just absolutely stunning. So. And had a great time away with my son too. It was good. Oh, very good. Yeah. Have you actually seen the movies, though? Oh yeah. Yeah, I've seen them. And then very cool to kind of see the places where they were filmed, right? Oh yeah. Like that would be wild because it -- because that was like one of the first movies that was really like, took the digital CGI and all of that stuff to the next level. But to actually see how much of it was like real life rolling hills, how they built the stages and scenes. Yeah, it was amazing. Did you guys watch the Amazon series and did you like it or not? My son did and he liked it, but I didn't watch that one. Okay. I loved Rings of Power. It was very good. But yeah, I don't know where they--. Did they film it in the same place? They probably didn't. I don't even know. Michael, quit taking us down these rabbit holes that just have nothing to do--.(Laughter) I like the Lord of the Rings. It's good. Okay. Sorry. We'll move on. We've got important things to talk about today. I know, I do too! Well, did you like, Michael, did you like Rings of Power? You know, at first it was a little slow, but I thought it was good in the end. Yeah. Yeah, I did. It was slow. But yeah, it turned out good. The second season was very, very good. But anyways. But maybe Sam has an objection to the Rings of Power. And speaking of objections, I was looking for a really terrible segway, and that was it.(Laughter) This one is an interesting one, and I've heard it. I don't know that it's like one of the top three most common, but I've definitely heard it. Leaders who plant have unhealthy motives. And we know that there are some stories out there that would prove it. So I think this one definitely has legitimacy. Michael, what do you think? Is this something that you've seen, heard, thought about? Yeah, I think it's-- it may not be one that's always talked about. Of well, if someone's doing that, it's because of this. It's definitely something that some of us feel, at least as we're planting. So I think it's important that we're talking about it. I think it's important where we're ending with it, too. It's just a good cap on the whole series. But yeah, it's definitely legit from one angle. Because we all know that that happens sometimes, right? Of course, there's the really good, pure hearted kingdom minded times where that happens. But there's definitely the times where someone plants and it's all about them and it's just filled with pride and it's about, you know -- we'll get into that, I'm sure, about control and this sort of thing. But yeah, I just one that immediately stuck out in my mind when we first were thinking about this, was I remember meeting someone and he was just ranting to me about how bad his boss was and how he's going to start a church in the same city, and he's going to show his boss how to actually do it. And then, from my understanding, is they met together, there was about ten of them, kind of as they started as a house church, and they wanted to grow into big Sunday service church. And I'm pretty sure they just would rant about the other church that they all came from and how bad it was and how good their church was going to be. And then last time I checked, the church wasn't running, still, obviously. But yes, this definitely exists in real world. And it's something that we need to talk about. Sam, have you bumped into this? I mean, you're new to your role, but you were on the district executive before. You have a huge heart for church multiplication. Any thoughts? Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. You do see it. I don't know if we see it all the time, like Michael said, but you definitely do see it. And it, you know, it can be very discouraging because when you're trying to plant out a pure motives and you see the guy down the street, maybe out of not so pure motives, you know, as Michael said, you know, maybe a discontent with your lead pastor. You can even, you know, I can do it better than somebody else. All too common. And I think it's because we're human, right? We're fallible. We're sinful humans. And that's going to show up in what we do. It's going to show up in the heartbeat and in the DNA, ultimately, even of the church. You're going to see it ultimately bleed through in the DNA of the church when that church is started out of impure motives. So we're talking about these impure, unhealthy motives. Like, maybe let's describe some of them. So I've heard, you know, pride, maybe control. Sam, any any others that roll around in your head that would be like red flags for you to approve someone to be a church planter? Yeah. So I think selfishness is obviously a big one as well. You know, I want to do it my way. I want control. You know, I want to be the boss. That's definitely a big one for me. You know, we've gone through periods where church planting has been the cool thing to do. And so somebody might say, hey, listen, I want to-- You know, I'm a cool guy, and I want to do what cool people do. I would actually interpret that as, Do you really have a calling to do it, right? You know, it's really not for the faint of heart. You've got to make sure that there's a calling there. You know, lots of just impure, selfish motivations as to why we do these things. It's unfortunate, again, because you're starting something from brand new, so I'm really cognizant of the DNA side of things. And when you're starting it, cognizant of how much that DNA is going to be established by your impure motive or by your pure motive. Yeah. Michael, your thoughts around this? Yeah, well, I definitely think bitterness can be something as well. And I've heard of stories, too, where sometimes people apply for lead pastor positions and they really, you know, think they've got a vision for something that they could do it and they just can't seem to get that chair. So they think to themselves, you know, well, if no one will hire me to be the lead, I'll just make my own and then I'll be the lead. And then I get to do it my way. And it's just heartbreaking here hearing these stories. But the good news is, you know -- and I'm sure we'll get into this later -- there's so many more stories where the opposite is true. This, I would say, is more the exception. But it's something that we've got to be aware of. Because you never know what's lurking behind, even our own hearts, as we're planting. So it's important to think about. I think, Sam, you mentioned it -- because I actually think this really, really matters is the motives. Like, the why are you doing this? So I get when someone says, hey, I'm interested in church planting. Okay, tell me why you want to church plant, tell you why you want to multiply your church. And as soon as you start hearing, Well, I want to and I -- like you're looking in the mirror a lot. And anytime I hear rebellion -- Like, they don't know how to do it and now I'm going to do it. So that's pride. But the second one is when you have to prove. Like, they're not resting in this idea of like, I'm a son or daughter of God, I have nothing to prove. We can achieve. There's nothing wrong with achieving, but you don't have to perform. And when I start hearing planters going, Well, I have to do this so I can get that. And it's like performing to get affirmation, performing to get acceptance maybe by others, maybe even by God. And you just want to stop and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The motivation here is -- The reason why you want to plant, to reach lost people and do all those things is great. But the motivation behind it, the heart behind it, you have to make sure that that is pure. Because - and again, can anyone ever be totally, like, 100% pure in church planting? I don't think so. But for us to have a hard conversation with people. Like, in my excitement to have church planters added and new churches started, I think I've sometimes maybe, maybe just moved too fast through this process of, okay, I need to know why you want to do it. Because as a director as --. And boy, those have never worked out good when I haven't dug into the why. Right? Sam, any comments about that? Yeah, no, that's a good point. And I do think that ultimately church planting actually magnifies our shortcomings. You know, because we're the ones who started it. We're the ones who have chosen the name. We're the ones who have made up the core values. We're the ones who established, again, that DNA. And it's really built around that one leader. And that leader's life and heartbeat is really under the microscope, you know, more than maybe in a normal church. Right? So I do think it magnifies it. So we've got all the more responsibility to dig deep as leaders and say, what is the why with you? What are your motives? And and I think those will, those will bleed through. Like, these are perhaps even character issues, right? You can't cover up character issues with a coat of paint. It's not going to work. It's going to bleed through. And you can't put gifting above character. You just can't do it. Yeah, right, Exactly. You brought up a good point because so much of church planting reflects the leader's heart or the couple, you know, that's leading. Michael, I was there at your church this past Sunday. And, you know, a lot of it is reflected in your passion and your ministry and your calling, that sets the culture of the church. So any comments to Sam? Because I totally --. When you're a planter and you're walking in with unhealthy motives, or emotionally unhealthy, that is going to show up in the culture of your church. Yes, absolutely. And that's the importance of having a solid team, right. And it not being built on one person. There's multiple people that are helping carry the weight, but then there's people that can call you out if needed as well. And having the right mentors in your life, having the right friends in your life that you can have those conversations with, where they're saying, Hey, why are you doing this? I remember when we were starting our second location. It was a replant in Dundas. And I remember a close friend of mine just had a list of questions and said, That's so cool. Question one, Question two, Question Three. And just went through this list of --. And they were all very personal of like, I know that you really like this. Is this why you're doing this? What about this? Is this why you--? And just very specific, very detailed questions. And I like, just I felt so vulnerable. Like, wait, what--? What do you know? But it was a healthy conversation because now all of a sudden it's making me think about things. Where, Whoa, I think I had a blindspot there. Am I doing this because of this? Oh, this is actually a good point. And here's someone that knows me and knows what my natural inclinations would be. And it just was really healthy. So I wonder if all of our planters need to be thinking that through. And anyone wondering about planting, you know, who are the people close to you? Can you have those conversations? And if you don't have that kind of relationship, what are the steps of where we could start building and investing into that kind of relationship? Because accountability is huge. And along with that too, being a part of our local section, being a part of our district, being at district events. And, like, I know sometimes when you don't know people, it's awkward at first, but just breaking through, creating those relationships to have that safeguard, to have that accountability. That's definitely really important. Well, yeah, you got to have someone that can ask you the hard questions and you'll tell them the truth. But I do think, you know, I do think when we talk about the heart, I mean, Solomon gives us the greatest wisdom of all. Above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life. You could also say, Leader, Planter, above all else, guard your heart. It will determine the course of your church. It will reflect. It'll show up. If there's some things that are not-- if there's some wrong motives. Sam, you could--. You've raised a few kids, you know this. You can parent from a place of faith or you can parent from a place of fear and it can be the same exact action. Yup. It's true. Right? Like you can say, I don't want you to go to that party because, you know, whatever ever, ever could happen. Or you could do it from a place of faith. It's not good for your heart. It's not good for your soul, for your mind. It's not good to be around those people. I trust you to go. But it's like --. And I think we can do that with planting, too. It's like, you know, what is the motivation that's driving you? Is it a calling? Like talk about--. Like you planted, you've helped others plant. How important is burden to planting? Like, even more than like calling. How important is burden. Yeah, I think it's very much the same as that calling in the sense of, like I would never get into being a pastor if I didn't have that burden to care for people, you know? And it has to be, I think, same way in church planting. We can't just do it because it's something to do. There has to be a purpose in it and a burden, an overwhelming I can't get rid of this feeling of I need to do this, which to me translates back to that calling to do it. And it establishes in my heart a certainty that this is exactly what God is calling me to do. And so hopefully that causes me to overlook some of the shortcomings in my life and be exactly the kind of person that God needs me to be. Because so much of church planting is centered around the one person that's starting that church. Right? Or maybe two, as you said, with a couple. And so they really come out. And if I'm just doing it as a job, boy, the people are going to figure that out really quickly. I think if you don't have a burden, you'll quit too soon as well. If you don't have that deep conviction that this is what we're supposed to be doing, that could happen. The moment challenges come, right? The moment challenges come and the moment it becomes difficult. Exactly. And I think, when you have that deep burden and that deep care for people, your reliance for God increases as well. And I think one of the unhealthy motives is I can do this without Him. Of course you'd never say that, but you actually could act like that. Like, when you were first starting, Michael, how important was it for you to build dependency on God into your culture and team? Yeah, that's the whole thing. And it's funny when--. I remember in specific moments, where things would finally kind of get running and rolling, and I would realize, wait a minute, I used to spend, you know, these nights praying. I haven't done that in a while. Oh, things have, like, been established, so I feel comfortable now. This is one of the worst places I could be right now. I need to get back to that dependency. And and I like what you guys are saying, like, back to that calling. It feels like every single one of these conversations always leads back to Is this a calling that God is bringing us to? And if not, we shouldn't do it. But if He is calling us to plant, then we have to plant. We have to do that. And really, it just comes down to being obedient. And, you know, for those of us that are thinking, Okay, I've heard the nasty example over here, over here of this person with the bad attitude, this person with bad attitude. I don't want to be associated with that way of leading. You know. Sometimes we can think it's arrogant. Like, who am I that I think that that God has chosen me to go in and be used to set up and establish a local church. Like this is -- like, that's such a big deal. It's a big deal. That God's establishing new spiritual families and new cities and new communities. I think sometimes we think if I, if I take that journey on, others will think, Oh, you must think you're something great. Or maybe I'll think I'm something great. So no, I want to avoid that. Make sure that others know I'm humble, make sure that I know myself, that I'm humble. And it's --. Wait, wait. Pause. It's not about what others think. It's not about even what we think. It's is God calling us to this, then we do it. That that's comes down to. Insecurity and humility. There's a fine line, isn't there? And it's okay to be confident in the Lord. And if He's going to get the glory in the end, then--. Check all those things in your heart. Where's my confidence? Who's going to get the glory? And when people ask me, you know, Oh man, this is so successful, are you going to point it and redirect it? Like, Hey, this is just God working through humble people, and God's doing something great with it. Now. So, I think we've done a good job of like, talking about the legitimacy of this. But should this stop us from multiplication? So we have a few bad examples. And unfortunately, it's those examples that you hear about. Well, you know that story about so-and-so. And it's like, you don't hear the other 99 stories of healthy church plants or healthy multi sites or healthy campuses that started. You just kind of get the bad news, hey? Why does bad news almost travel faster sometimes? And so I don't think this is--. While this is a legitimate argument, this should never be an objection, in my opinion, for us to not try it and not go for it, especially if God is calling us to it. Sam, what do you think? Yeah, no 100% agree. I think at the end of the day, you know, we just have to -- I think it was attributed to Gandhi where it said, be the change that you want to see in the world, that you wish to see in the world. Right? So don't let these objections or this shortcomings of other people ultimately take you away from what God wants you to do. And, you know, you said a word earlier, I want to pick up back up again. This idea of confidence, right? I do this kind of seminar that talks about confidence versus insecurity and arrogance. One of things I talk about in there is just this idea that confidence is believing about yourself, what God believes about you, in spite of what we feel. It's about accepting what God has called you to, as Michael said earlier. And so this confidence really has to propel us into saying, in spite of perhaps some bad apples, in spite of a lack of finances, in spite of this, in spite of that, I am going to do it. I am not going to hold back on doing everything that God has called me to be. I cannot stop doing it and I'm going to be the change that I wish to see in the world. And I think it's really important that we do that. It's even really important that we just recognize that as leaders, we need to have more - as Michael said - we need to have more good churches out there, more good church plants out there that are doing a really good job and in really lessening the amount of churches that perhaps are birthed out of impure motives. We need to be a leader. We need to influence others towards pure motives and make sure that we're doing our part. So, yeah, we can't stop church planting just because there's a few bad apples. Absolutely not. We just have to do it. We have to make sure that we're doing our part. And I mean, I need to own a little bit as too. You know, as a national leader hearing the different stories. I've got to get these stories out here. We've got to work hard at telling the good stories in our fellowship. And I --. There are a ton of them. And in multiple denominations. I'm part of Church Planting Canada, and one of the denominations here in Canada started 55 new churches this year. They're about, maybe about a third to maybe, you know, somewhere our size. But they're just like -- they're just like all in. And it's like, man, we got to celebrate that. We got to get excited about these stories and stop worrying about being painted with the unhealthy motive brush. Well, you're just painting because you have unhealthy motives. You don't know my heart.(Laughter) Because here's the thing. They don't even know their hearts. The Bible tells us you don't even know your own heart. How could you know someone else's? And so we've just got to let that go. Like people say, well, you're planting, you must have an unhealthy motive. You can't find a job anywhere else. You must be -- That's why you're church planting. That's ridiculous. That just has to stop. And it should not be-- This, it is an objection, there's legitimacy to it -- but it really shouldn't be. Michael, your thoughts? Yeah, that reminds me of a quote by Spurgeon about, you know, like, well, what if others think this, what if others think this about me and this sort of thing? There's a quote. He says, If someone thinks ill of you, don't be angry with them for you're worse than they think you to be. You know, that's like --. (Laughter) Like, we all have heart issues anyway. It's like, what if this person thinks I'm a terrible person? It's like, Yeah, without Jesus, we are terrible people. But we have Jesus, so it's okay. And Jesus makes us right and He makes us right with the Father. And He's changing our character day by day. And you know, it's funny. We were talking about the why. Why are the viral stories the bad stories? Right. It's just -- isn't that classic human being? It's like, what's the-- what's the-- that's a juicy detail. What else happened? What else happened? And I was just talking to our staff the other day about this. Is faithfulness is underrated. Because sometimes it's so boring. Sometimes there's no flash at all. Sometimes it's--. You know, sometimes what it is, is I showed up and I worked really hard and I didn't really see any result. And that was the week. And then I showed up. I worked really hard. I prayed about it, and I didn't really see a result. But eventually, right, you plant the seed, eventually there's some growth. And I just have this conviction that one day we're all going to be in eternity. One day we're going to be all meeting the people from the scriptures and, you know, giving each others hugs and hearing the stories. And I think some of the most respected people in heaven, in eternity, we're going to look at and we're going to say, I've never heard of you before. What? Wow, I've never heard your story. I've never heard about what you've done. Because that's what good leaders do. It's not about them. There's humility, right? And they're remembering, it's about the calling. It's about being obedient. It's about the lost. That's the motivation. And it's just--. I don't know, I'm reminding myself of that. And I think just as planters, we got to be doing that. And I think it's also just reminding ourselves that you reap what you sow too, right? And making sure that we understand, what's the end game here? Like God's in the long game with us. And we need to remember that when it comes to church planting, we're in it for the long game. I was going to read it - I love what Galatians

6: 26:20

7 and on says, you know, Don't be deceived. God is not mocked. Whatever a person's sows, he'll also reap. And then it says, Those who live to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that simple nature. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life in the Spirit. Then it says this. So let's not get tired of doing what is good. And at the right time we'll reap a harvest, a blessing if we don't give up. Therefore, whenever we have the opportunity, we should do good to everyone, especially those of the family of faith. And that's what we need to keep in mind when it comes to church planting. Yeah, there may be bad apples out there, but I'm in this for the long game and I'm not giving up. I'm not going to get tired. I'm not going to give in. I'm going to keep doing what is right and in due time, I'll repeat good harvest. I just love that verse. Yeah. In other versions it says the proper time. At the proper time you will reap a harvest. It's becoming one of my favorite verses because -- and I've talked about this before -- by the time you put an apple seed in the ground, it's seven years before you see any fruit. So there is a season, like, in everyone's growth journey in planting and everything, that there's -- you just don't reap right away. Like even in John 15 it says, you know, you will bear much fruit. You know, If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. But Jesus does not say a time on it. We assume that it happens right away because we like microwaves and, you know, we want everything quick. We love the journey -- Or we love the destination, not the journey, all of that stuff. So we think --. But there's actually time that fruitfulness takes. Which is why I like what Mark Batterson said, Long obedience in the same direction. That's what it is. And we've got to -- We've got to be aware that this objection is out there, but we can't be fearful of what other people think. And I don't -- I just wonder how many people have had a call in their life to start a new work. But because somebody said something, they didn't do it. And that's so sad. That is so sad. Because we should --. If God said to do it, then that's all I need. That's all I need, right? Michael, Philippians 1. You've got some thoughts as well around this. Yeah, it's one of these scriptures that we come back to every once in a while. And it's Paul talking about why some people are are preaching the good news, right.

And Philippians 1: 28:53

15, Paul just kind of owns it. He acknowledges that it. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry. So these are people, Oh, look how good I look. Oh, I am better than this person. This person looks up to me. I get to control this.

But then he says this: 29:09

But others out of goodwill. And I just, I really like how -- Yes, there's bad examples. But listen, it's possible to plant a church with a pure heart. And what Paul says, out of goodwill. Like, truly out of I want the kingdom of God to grow. This is not about me. Lord, this is about you. I'm lifting your name high. It's possible. And I just love this. How he says the latter do so out of love, knowing that I'm here for the defense of the gospel. And he just kind of goes on.

But in verse 18, he said this: 29:40

But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether false motives or true, Christ is preached. I just love Paul's attitude here. He kind of acknowledges terrible leaders exist and are even leading churches. Anyways, I'm doing my thing. I'm not going to let it affect me. I'm just going to keep going. Because I know that why I'm doing it is for Jesus. And that's -- at the end of the day, that's what matters. It reminds me of a quote. I can't remember who said it. Local pastor, or church online or something. It was probably me--. (Laughter) You know what, Paul, I think it was you. The wisdom was from you. It was--. So what was that quote again, Paul? (Laughter) I don't know. No, it was it was --. There's --. (Laughter) So many. There's only grace for your race. And like, it's cheesy that it rhymes and stuff, but it's --. Wow, that's good. Just run your race. You know, we're--. You know, if we're not--. If someone's doing this over here and we don't have a say or that, well, just run your race well. And it's impossible to do it with a pure heart. So we run into that. We run into that. Yeah. I mean, I do have a message on grace for the race, but I don't think you've heard it. (Laughter) It was you, Paul. It was you. It wasn't me. I don't know. But it's true that you--. God can't anoint who you pretend to be. You got to be-- You've got to be settled into who you are. And not worry about what other people are saying or doing. Just run your race. Stay in your lane. It's really, really good. So leaders who plant have unhealthy motives, we would say while there's some legitimacy, that is not enough to stop church multiplication.

So our counter statement would be: 31:26

A few bad examples shouldn't hold us back from using the New Testament model of church planting for the Great Commission. So if we believe that to be true, Sam, what should we be doing? Just doing it. Like going at it. Making sure that we have nothing holding us back. Invoking and asking for the power of God in everything that we do. Making sure that that it's more about Him than it is about us, you know, because church planting can be very much centered around a character or personality. But really making sure that we're saying, God, this is your church. I remember -- just a quick story. I said that for years in the church plant that I did. Guys, this isn't my church. This is God's church. We're going to honor Him. We're going to be faithful to that. And about a year after I left my church, actually about two years after I left my church, someone else had come in and taken over and the church actually folded. And I was so discouraged and just saying, God, what did you do? You know, why? And God took me back to that, what I had said for years. Wasn't my church. It was His church. And just reminding myself that it was not about me. It wasn't about, you know, look how I failed. Or look how the church that I planted is gone. Wasn't about me. It was always about God, right from the beginning. And so, you know, I think we need to remind ourselves of that as we get into it, that it's not-- though God uses us -- it's not about us. It has to be about Him at every step. Well, if it's not, then when it's going good, we get the glory. And when it goes bad, we take the L. You know, we take the loss. We take the failure. I'm trying to think of that quote, Pray as if it depends on God. But work as if it depends on you. It's not saying you don't work hard, but just understanding that in the end it's God who makes it grow. You can plant. You can water. But it's God who makes it grow. Like I said, it shouldn't stop us from what's doing. Michael, your thoughts? We believe this counter statement to be true. What should we be doing? Yeah, this is what I challenge

everyone listening: 33:34

Be one of the good ones. Help change the narrative. You know, the more positive stories, the more stories that come out where people just did it for the kingdom. And it wasn't about selfish ambition. It wasn't about looking good or this sort of thing. The more the narrative will start to change. So I just want to encourage you to do that. And just, really, all of us at the end of the day --. If we took an honest self-reflection, there's probably to some degree some mixed motive. There's a really good motive here. But, you know, sin is trying to latch on to that and go along for the ride and this sort of thing. So just, let's spend some time with Jesus and hash that out. Say Jesus, can you point out where there's some sin? Can you point out where there's some unhealthy motives? Okay. Lord, can you help me work through this? And I think beautiful things will happen when when we do that. And just, because I guess this is Episode Eight, right? This is it, Paul. So to all of brave people that made it to Episode Eight, just at the end here. I would encourage you, go and plant the church if God's calling you to do it. If God's going to do it, He's with you, do it. And I can't express enough just the --. If you need support, if you need a sounding board, if you need just any help at all, Paul and the team is here. Multiply Network is here. Your district leaders are here. Like, we're a part of a greater church family and we help each other and we don't have to do it alone. And it's possible to plant well. It's possible to plant with a good motivation. And it's possible to make disciples like we've never done before. And I just, I'm believing that for Canada. The whole team here is believing that for Canada. So we're proud of you for making it to Episode Eight. Woohoo! Yay! We should send you a certificate.(Laughter) That's right. Certificate of finishing the eight-part series. Sam, any encouragement for people thinking about planting? Who are planting right now? You've done it. You've lived it. You've helped others do it. Now you're in a district role where you're working with church planters and you're working with new starts. So any encouragement for those leaders out there? Yeah. When I planted my church, I had two words of advice from two great guys, one from Al Dairy and one from Jay Davis. And one of them said, Just do it. Like, don't talk about it. Don't dream about it for years and years and years. Just make it happen. And the other one said, Know exactly who you are and what kind of church you want to have. Because you'll have all kinds of people trying to take you in a different direction. And, you know, we had a person come into our church and she wanted to do worship a certain way. And, you know. And I said, no, we're doing it this way. And she lasted about three weeks, literally. So you just -- you really need to know who you are and you need to know what God has laid on your heart. The kind of core values that you in the church are going to be and stick to them. Because there's a reason why He's called you to that place, to that church, to those people, to that community. There's a reason why. You know, the whole Esther thing, For such a time as this. And so, you know, I would say be true to what God -- the dreams and visions that God has placed on your heart. And don't compromise them. Know that they're God's, for sure. But don't compromise on them. And God will bless and honor you in the midst of that. So, yeah, two really good words of encouragement that were given to me. I give them back to everybody listening today. I think it's really important. And don't do it alone. Don't do it alone. You know, you've got a lot of people that want to speak into your life. Find good people around you that will ask you good questions and will, you know, love you and are for you, but also won't be afraid to challenge you. And you will be better for it. And the days of church planting alone are over. Don't do it. It's just not worth it. You've got lots of interdenominational relationships. Maybe you're part of a network or a fellowship. You've got those connections. Reach out to those leaders. Don't do it alone. And so thanks, Sam, for jumping on today. Appreciate you. I know you're a busy dude, and you got lots of things going on with the, you know, new role. You just moved. Lots of things. And here you are helping us out today. Appreciate it. And Michael, as always, thanks for jumping on. You've been a wonderful co-host for this series. I'm sure we'll do some other podcasts together, but just appreciate all the time and energy. And Jim Molloy, who's helped produce this whole thing behind the scenes. He's been on a couple of episodes, but he's been a part of everything as well. So thanks to all of you. And thanks everyone for listening. This has been our pleasure to do it. We've learned a lot in this process, of the Eight Objections to Church Multiplication. Out of all the podcast series or things we've done, this is the one we've got the most feedback on. So thanks so much for leaning in. We're here to help. If you want to know of some resources, if you want more information about something, we want to be part--. We are--. Our vision is to see every church a multiplying church. And so there's lots of ways that you can do that. Check out EveryChurch.ca for some resources that are there. And we'd love to help you and connect with you however we can. Thanks so much, everyone, for tuning in today and until next time. Have a great day. Well, thanks for listening today. We trust this conversation was encouraging. If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey, reach out to us by email. MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org. Until next time.