Episode 71 - Apostolic Leadership with Jason Small

In this episode, Jason Small, District Superintendent of the Western Ontario District of the PAOC, joins the conversation to provide a fresh look at what it actually means to lead with an apostolic edge today. Jason helps break down the definition of apostolic leadership, tackles the potential baggage and red flags sometimes associated with that term, and shares how local churches thrive when pioneering leaders are empowered.

Whether you are a local pastor, a church planter, or a leader in any capacity, we are praying that this episode will be helpful for you!

Transcript

We need the apostolic gifting to pioneer and reach Canada and the world.
Then you actually see, okay, God, you actually wired me for a reason this way.
What happens if a church doesn't have someone leading in an apostolic way?
Why are people apprehensive to even the word apostolic ministry?
She's gonna hate me if she hears that in the spot. He's definitely
gonna hear it. We're gonna send
it to it.
How does someone recognize if they might have that calling on their life?
The strongest apostolic leaders I know are the most humble,
and I actually believe that's a call on us as Pentecostals, that this is an area that God is pushing us in the kingdom, when we're at our best, is when we're actually celebrating apostolic leadership.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Multiply Network podcast. Our goal is to help you grow as a leader and to encourage you with what is happening in church multiplication all across Canada. There are many new churches starting in our nation, and we want you to be a part of that. My name is Michael, and I'm a part of the Multiply Network team, and a church planter here in Canada. And I just want to say, thank you for joining us today. So today's episode is one that I'm really excited about, because we're diving into a topic that isn't always talked about in the church, and if it is talked about, it's not always done in the clearest way possible, but it's incredibly important for the church. Today, we are talking about apostolic leadership, what it is, why it matters, why it is sometimes misunderstood, and why it shouldn't be overlooked, and the hope is, is that if you have that calling of being apostolic in your leadership, that you would lean into that even more today, and if you're saying, hey, that's not who I am, well, that's great too, because you have an important calling in life, and hopefully today we can all learn to work together as we see God's kingdom move forward, and before we introduce our guests, I want to bring in my friend Paul Fraser to help lead this combo today. Paul is the founder and the leader of the Multiply Network. He's one of my heroes and one of my mentors, and also one of the greatest fly fishermen you will ever meet in your life. That's what my friend Jim Malloy says, at least, and I'm so jealous that Paul gets to live in the great land of Alberta. So, Paul, how are you? Fill me in. How you doing? How's life in Alberta? And we're recording this conversation in mid-April right now. So, tell me, what's going on with the weather? Is it snowing in there, or what? What's going on?
Hey, Michael, thanks for co-hosting again. Love, love, love the fact that you're leaning in so well with this. There's no snow on my front lawn today. We may get some snow later this week. Prior to the podcast, we were talking about how Edmonton can sometimes get snow into May and sometimes even June. I remember one particular youth event, big outreach event, and it snowed june 4. I couldn't believe it. This big outreach, we spent so much money, but normally we have great, great summers. Edmonton summers are amazing, you know. I'm excited to talk about this topic today, because this is something, as you know, Michael, like this has been on my heart for a really, really long time to help people understand what apostolic ministry is, and to grow in it, and to help young leaders who maybe have a bit of that pioneering call on their lives to see that grow. So, really excited to chat about these things today.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I'm going to Calgary in a few weeks, and I'm holding you personally responsible with the weather, okay? So, whatever happens, it's the
mountains, man, they just do whatever they want.
Oh, yes, I'm, I'm jealous, I want to live there one day, we'll see what happens. So, it's a special day here at Multiply Network, because we have, and I wish I had a sound effect for this, a drum roll sound effect, but we have the legendary Jason Small with us today. So, if you don't know Jason, Jason, okay, the sound effects, there we go. Excellent. So, Jason is the district superintendent of the Western Ontario District of the PAOC. So, in acronym form, he is the DS of the WD of the PAOC, and if you haven't met Jason yet, you're missing out. He is a church planter. He is the absolute life of the party, and he's truly someone who practices what he preaches. So, Jason Small, thank you so much for being on the Multiply Network podcast today.
Awesome, thanks for having me. What a joy, what a privilege, and to be on with YouTube legends. It's wow, my joy is complete. So
that's
right. So we're talking about apostolic leadership today, and you know the first person we thought of was you, Jason, because we've, we've seen what your life looks like up close, you know, the new things that God has started through your leadership, the things that have been. And reformed or rejuvenated through your leadership, and we just knew you're one of the best people to talk to about apostolic leadership. So, Paul, why don't we go through the first set of questions there with Jason?
Yeah, could you tell us a little bit about how you first started following Jesus, and when did you begin to recognize a calling for church leadership on your life,
yeah. Thanks, Paul. So, I was really blessed, actually. My parents came to faith right around the time I was born, and so I had the privilege and the blessing of growing up in an amazing home, Christian home. Was really blessed, actually, with the pastors over my life, were like legends, like they were all-star, all-star leaders, and so I was disproportionately blessed that way. Really felt had all these unique ministry opportunities. Sometimes it's only as you look in the rearview mirror, but as a young child, I got leadership thrown into leadership early, and through different things, working at a kids camp, helping with kids ministry at the church, and just being allowed to lead at a young age, and so that was really, really just the blessing of God of my life. As far as feeling called to ministry, I was a teenager, I can remember, I can take you back to the service, and there was a call that went out for vocational ministry, and I could feel like my chest pounding, like, like a deep pounding in my chest, like this is for me, and feeling like this is what God had spoken. And there was a wrestling match to that. I remember feeling like, I don't know, Lord, I just think pastoring would be so boring, I don't know if I want to do that, and I remember kind of having this conversation with God, saying, God, I, okay, I'll follow you my whole life, I'll do this if you promise it's not going to be boring, and sometimes you be careful what you pray, because God will listen to that, and the journey will be sometimes I could do with a little more boring in my life, but no. So, yeah, God's just taking me on a journey and a ride that I is beyond my wildest dreams.
And you had, you've had a lot of different, like, ministry roles. You talked about, as a young person, getting the opportunities to lead, but maybe just up, you know, maybe just talk a little bit about all the different roles you had, and maybe what did you learn from each, each of those roles.
Yeah, so if I went way back to even a teenager, actually right after I said yes to that, God opened up this unique door where I got to be on this traveling ministry team, so we went from church to church, youth group to youth group, kind of outreach area to outreach area all across Canada, and so I got to see so many different contexts of what God was doing, and and be a part of that, and so that was so exciting as a teenager, just getting to be a part of so many different styles and forms of church and forms of outreach, and and see what was healthy, see what wasn't healthy. We were involved with for a short time overseas, so in a in Hong Kong, and got to see the church in a different form altogether at serving in completely cross-cultural contexts. Then my wife and I moved to Northern Ontario, and we were the lead pastors of a small elderly congregation, and just to see God do an incredible work there in that community, little community called Ingle Heart. We just loved our days there and still love the people and love our time there. Then we planted a church in Waterdown, which is Burlington, Hamilton area, and so just the the excitement that comes with seeing a new work begin, and we're able to see some, some other churches get planted out of that church, and and just those were such exciting days, and Waterdome still holds a piece of my heart every time I drive into the community, I get a little weepy, and just love that community so, so much, and just enjoy the, the, to see it continue to move forward, and one of our staff persons, who is with us, is now the lead pastor, and she's Kayla, and I actually did an amazing job, and so, so exciting to cheer her on and see what God's doing there, so yeah, just exciting ways that way, then I was involved in, took the step out to serve our districts, or some shishum churches, and part of that, and yeah, what a joy that was. That was the hardest decision of my life, too, to leave the church plant, which I loved, and it was going well. It was like everything was going fantastic, and doors were opening, and so sometimes God pushes you to leave something that's going really well. It's like the upside-down kingdom, you know. The world would say, when things are going bad, leave when it's good, stay. And oftentimes, God's flip flop of that. And so, that's when we were called to become the Northern Regional Directors, and so we served. The churches of Northern Ontario, and what a joy, what a privilege, just to get to lead pastors and churches. And then I had a little sidebar of my portfolio was church planting, and we really, we begin what we call the New Churches Network, and Michael Bronson was part of our original crew, right from the get go, and we just saw God breathe on church multiplication, so much so that my role became, it was just a little piece on my role, and then it became like at least half of my role, maybe more, and so then we entered into a spot where it became my full-time role, and so getting to work with church planters every day and apostolic leaders doesn't get better than that. And then I was really humbled to be voted in as the district superintendent, and so now I get to work with church planters still, but
also to work with all of our churches and try and inspire them towards health and vitality and strategic multiplication, and with all those roles, like I found the variety of roles in my ministry journey has helped me actually understand apostolic ministry, because you see it show up in so many different contexts, you think it's just for just overseas missions, and it is, but it's also for here in Canada, and communities, and and you've been able to grow in your giftings. So, Michael, over to you to kind of dive a little bit deeper into some of that apostolic learnings that Jason had, and thanks for sharing your story with
us. So, let's get to some apostolic questions specifically, then, and just we'll dive right in here. So, maybe we'll, we'll all kind of just go around the room and kind of share on what an apostolic leader would look like. So, Jason, I want to hear your thoughts on this. So, here's how, here's how I probably would define apostolic leadership. Okay, so I'd probably say it's it's an entrepreneurial role where someone is sent out by God, sent out by a church, so it's not a lone wolf type person. It's, it's, you know, sent from a group of people to either go and start a new work somewhere or to go and renew or restore a work that's already been established previously, and I say that because the Greek word apostle means to be sent, right, the sent one, and the apostolic examples we see in the scripture are just that, right, these entrepreneurial leaders who will go either start something new, like Paul the Apostle, maybe help reform something, like, like Peter the Apostle, and since these leaders are being sent out, they need to have somewhat of an ability to be a generalist, at least at first, and then they also need the ability to develop leaders and empower other people around them to take over the work. So that's kind of where I would, that's what I would say apostolic leadership looks like. And just a side note, too, and maybe it's probably good we're saying this more near the front. I'm probably not arguing today for people to be called apostles, you know, like, oh, Apostle Jason Small or Apostle Paul Fraser or anything like that. I would probably lean more towards we need to be asking the question, do I have an apostolic calling on my life versus am I an apostle with a capital A, so that's probably where I would land with that. So, Jason, does that definition work for you? What am I missing? What needs to be corrected to teach us the ways, Jason? Teach us the ways.
Yeah, so I think that's really good, Michael. I think the way I would see it is maybe something around a holy dissatisfaction with the status quo, so someone that says I'm going to look at a high level to say what could be and where could it be. It's about pioneering new works, I agree, and new, and not just new works, and sometimes we think about just church planting. It's it's about new territory for the kingdom, it's about new areas, and I believe Holy Spirit inspired creativity to, to sow into the gaps, so it's about that pioneering new works, but it's also about establishing kingdom culture, and so it's saying where there isn't kingdom culture to bring kingdom culture in, and I believe it's about raising and releasing leaders, so to become a leader of leaders, it has that apostolic calling on our lives and moving beyond oneself to say, okay, we're going into it's not about my position, that's where I think people miss it when they're like, you gotta call me apostle, well, that's about oneself, and it's about moving beyond oneself, and so it really isn't a term to be used authoritatively, but it's, it's more of a function in my books,
right, and it's about the people around us, so it's not just I'm going to go do this thing. Saying, therefore, I'm living up my apostolate calling. I like what you said there, with the culture changing it, bringing the kingdom. Paul, what are your thoughts on that? What would you add into that convo about what it looks like to be apostolic and live out that calling?
Yeah, lots of lots of great things said. One thing I would add is probably an apostolic leader is one who equips the saints for works of service, so it's also that part of that five fold ministry that's actually equipping people to go out and do the ministry. Not only are you sent, you're also a sender, and you're making sure people are being equipped for that. And along with what Jason, and both, actually, Michael, you said this as well, is I heard I heard a pastor recently speak on Ephesians 220 it says, "Together we are his house. This is talking about the Gentiles and how they're being brought into God's family. Together we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, and the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. And so one of the things that that they mentioned was that the apostles saw Jesus, the prophets heard, you know, so the apostles, apostles saw God, and the prophets heard God. And I think apostles, when they're at their best and healthy, they got their heads up, and they're looking out on where Jesus is at work in the communities, so it's like, oh, he's at work in this town, he's at work, it they're able to see where Jesus is at work, and then come along and partner with it. Prophets again kind of hear, you know, that prophetic gifting hears, apostles see, and so when an apostolic leader is healthy in good accountability and community, he or she's got her got their heads up, looking out to see where God wants to send people next, and so it's that little bit of the seer trying to figure out where God's at work, and then follow Him there.
Yeah, to that, Paul, I, I kind of envision the apostolic leader as there's a, if you took it in terms of like warfare, so there's a ground invasion, and then there's the air invasion, and the apostolic leaders, the air, so you're seeing things, and you're kind of directing the ground to take on new territory, and so it's a different level of leadership, not better or worse, it's just you have a different perspective,
so taking these kind of three together, it's an apostolic person is not like a superhero, it's not, oh my goodness, thank goodness, it's all about this person, but often the one who sees which direction to go, and maybe that first one to go, and sets things up for other people to come, and it's almost other people can't come and do their work, or do that calling, unless that original person goes first and does it. That's interesting, because we need the apostolic gifting to pioneer and reach Canada and the world. Yeah, well, and that's what today is all about, right? There might be some people listening, of like, where something's starting to resonate, and we want to make sure we're doing this in a healthy way, though, and with humility, humility, humility, humility. So, maybe let's talk about that next. What are some potential red flags, Paul? And why are we avoiding this term apostolic sometimes? Why can it be a scary word? Maybe let's jump in to some questions about that.
Yeah, so Jason, you can solve that problem with it for us. Why are there, why are there like misconceptions, or why are people apprehensive to even the word apostolic ministry?
I think we've thrown the baby out with the bath water sometimes in it, so there's been some misuse of it, and so therefore it, it backs everyone up, and it makes everyone afraid. It's like a lot of the five fold. So, the idea of prophecy sometimes, because you've had some false prophets out there, then people are like, I don't want to touch that, and so then they get afraid of that. I think, because of the term, the apostolic term can be used almost as a veto card, so it's like God told me to do this, so people play it as a, as a, as a reason for being not under accountability, which is the opposite of what I think the role would be, as you, you serve, and people would use it as a domineering tactic, and both are, which are completely opposite of the heart of God, and so I think if you walk in accountability and you walk in a mindset of serving, that's a safeguard over the apostolic gifting.
The strongest apostolic leaders I know are the most humble. I don't know if you know that, like, I don't know if you'd say that, but I just like, as I think about, like the apostolic leaders I know, they walk in the level of humility that I wish I could, because they, because I think humility actually carries authority, and what, what we think is, we think a title carries authority. And so that's why the apostolic term has been thrown around or misused, because it's like, oh, I have an apostolic gifting, which means I have more authority, but actually in the kingdom of God, I actually think it's humility, the more humble you,
so good,
the more authority you have, and so whenever we throw the word apostolic around as a title and not a function, we, we think their authority comes in in the title. Have you, have you experienced any pushback on the gifting on your life, or maybe seen it misunderstood in others, or has it just been pretty positive for you since you started really stepping into that gifting a bit more?
I think there's always opposition to you living out your identity in Christ always, so the enemy is going to bring people along that will push it. I remember there was a guy that was in our church, and he, he came to me and he said, "You know, you don't have a leadership gifting on your life, and he was there trying to actually split our church, and, and I was like, okay, I'll take that into consideration, and, and so there's always going to be people that are pushing back. I think the reality is, I think, as you said, Paul, it's not a function of office, authoritarian office, but it's really a function of serving, so I look back into my life, and as far as taking new territory and new areas, there's always been a lot of pushback, as far as people going, "Are you sure you know we're gonna, we're behind you? But I don't know if that's something you actually want to do, and so I look back at every move of my journey, people go, wouldn't want that job. Are you sure? Like, do you really want to? And it's actually been where God's calling, and so it's not that you disregard advice, so that's not it at all, but understand that it's not there's accountability, but it's also into areas that maybe others aren't comfortable to go, because they're not called to.
If I've ever bumped into anything like from an apostolic ministry side of things, it's like anytime you introduce something new, every single like organization system, church has an immune system, and they have to identify it right away. Is this a threat, or should we, is this going to help us? And so I find sometimes, if you're more of a pioneering, entrepreneurial, apostolic leader, you're constantly introducing new things, and that is met with resistance, often because organizations have immune systems that kind of protect against things that are new until they know what it is. So, if you're going to be an apostolic leader, and Jason, I'd like your take on this. I think you have to be ridiculously patient, and you have to be thinking long game. You can't just go, I'm just going to, I'm going to force my way through, I'm gonna bulldoze people and get my way. It just never works. You have to play the long game if you're gonna be an apostolic leader. Would you agree with that?
Yeah, 100% And I, I just, over my life, I've kind of seen it as I used the term for a long time, actually, before I really made it was my hesitancy to use the apostolic term, but I'd say I'm kind of the RD wing of the church, the research and development wing. Yeah, and so you're like, okay, you're going to try some things, and I think that's part of the apostolic leadership too, is is you're going to go into areas that not everything's going to work either, and so sometimes we actually inform the church by don't try that, like, like that, that, that's not going to work, but also that there is going to be the things that come along, and so it's like, okay, just as you push that envelope, you have to have patience, for sure, you also have to have resilience to say, okay, it's not going to be easy, because a lot of people look and go, "Oh, that looked like so much fun playing in church, which it was. It was like the best time ever. At the other side of that coin, there was a lot of
slugging moments, and just plowing through and persevering, and likewise, when we started the new churches network. It wasn't there's a lot of misconceptions that you got to clear up. There's a lot of coffees, there's a lot of conversations, there's a lot of helping people understand where you feel God's calling on this. So, as we think about the term apostolic in your view, should we be using the terminology more like the actual term, or like for everyday use, or should it kind of be like we understand what it is, but let's just not make it public behind the scenes. Let's, let's focus on the function. I feel like it used to be a bit of a taboo word. We're coming into a new season, though, I think. At least in our movement, I don't know what other people's movements are experiencing, but I think there's a more, there's more openness to it. But what would your take be on that?
Yeah, I, I always think you don't go wrong when you use biblical terms, so that's kind of a good,
yeah,
and now, but to use them correctly is also the key, and so to look at it, and just back to our other, so if you're using it in an isolated power move, it's always the wrong, so whatever you use terms God's way, if you use it for power, you've missed the point, and so God's ways are never to edge for power, it's actually to edge towards responsibility, and so if you kind of get that straight and you use it around responsibility and not power, then I think we need to do more of that, for sure.
Yeah, especially the empowering part, 100% Let's talk about the practical application in the local church. Over to you, Michael.
Just to follow up on all of that, what a red flag could be. I remember hearing a story one time where there was a pastor with two locations, and I remember the one had just started, and the title that the pastor had was he was the global apostolic pastor, and it just seemed a little extra for, for what it was, and you know, and I get that maybe he was just really dreaming and really like this is who I am, and this sort of thing, but at the same time I think we need to be careful about how we're using that word, and yeah, it's about equipping people, it's about putting others first, and it's about humility, humility, humility, right. So, getting practical, then in the local church, you know, we've talked about kind of what, what this is, being an apostolic leader, talked about some red flags, making sure we're using this terminology wisely and correctly. Jason, what, what happens if a church doesn't have someone leading in an apostolic way? What happens to a city when there's not that apostolic edge, kind of looking and taking a view of things spiritually and figuring out where to go, and this sort of thing? What's a long-term impact when that apostolic calling is missing.
I think the danger is you become a place that maintains and somewhere that just maintains, eventually plateaus, and then eventually declines, so you stop taking new ground. I think you don't see leaders developed the same way. So, I see Apostolic as someone who works themselves out of a job all the time, so continually starting something with the express purpose to work, like Mike. The call over my life is to always work myself out of a job, so get into it and do it, but trade somebody up so that somebody else is doing it in a short amount of time, and so the danger is you're not actually releasing leaders in the way that you need to release leaders if you don't have that apostolic side to things.
Wow. And so on the flip side, then what happens when a church is healthy in that way? It does have that apostolic edge. What happens long term to a church in a city?
Yeah, so it's not over centralized leadership. It actually the leadership goes out from there, and so there's leaders of leaders built, there's a push to find the gaps in the areas where there the church isn't, there's creative ministries begin, there's a license to try things, and and to begin, and pioneer, and take new territory, and so new expressions of the church develop, new expressions of leadership develop, new creative approaches to ministry happen.
So, for anyone listening right now, and they're thinking, okay, this is a very interesting conversation, maybe I've thought about this before, maybe I haven't, but how does someone recognize if they might have that apostolic call in on their life? Like, what are the signs? What are the things that people could point to to see if they're
supposed
to live that out?
Good question. So, questions like, am I pioneering or just maintaining, what do I slant towards? What foundation am I laying that will outlast me? Am I active in raising and releasing, so not just raising leaders, but releasing leaders into things. Am I led by the spirit or just strategy? Is it all about just strategic next moves, or is there an element where it's like, okay, this doesn't make sense, but the Holy Spirit has really put it on my heart, and so we sometimes look at just function, but it's actually a spiritual call as well, and then where is the next multiplication opportunity, and you're always thinking, my kids would all. Mock me all the time, whenever I would drive somewhere, and they actually still mock me to this day, because I would see somewhere, and I'd be like, that would be a great spot for a church, like this would be amazing. And so my kids now, every time they see, like, an abandoned building, or building for sale, or this area, they're like, Dad, do you think your church would be there? And I'm like, yeah, actually, and then, like, yeah, we're mocking you, so because it's just continually on my heart, like, okay, Where could the kingdom go next? Where could the kingdom go next? And so it's not my backyard mentality, but I want to see the kingdom go forward mentality.
Yeah, I know Paul and I have joked about that too, and with our friend Jim Malloy too. It's just it's a constant conversation of, oh, look, there could be, there could be a new church building, there could be a new church building. I remember when I first started dating my wife, she looked at me and said, so are you okay? Like, every building is a possible church plant, and I remember saying yes, and this is what we're going to do, if that's all right. What would you say to someone who this is really clicking with? Like, what advice would you give them that saying I might have that apostolic calling on my life
to recognize it's not bad? So, sometimes we I'm pushing beyond the boundaries here. I must not fit, and so sometimes they just walk away from ministry because they think there's no position for them, and it's like, no, you actually do fit here, and we need people like you, and it's okay that you don't kind of see things the way that maybe the majority would see it, that's okay, you're you're essential to the kingdom, and so that's the starting point, like, hey, we want you, we like you, and we'll find a lane for you, and so that's that's really important. Also, the second thing is, if that's you, is to stay in accountability,
because
the enemy would like to exploit that, and instead of just being an outlier, to be a discontent, and there's a big difference between those two, and so it's like, okay, I gotta stay under accountability and keep myself under that kind of level of accountability.
Yeah, that's really good. Okay, so on the flip side to that, then for the people that are listening, and they're saying, okay, I definitely am not that apostolic leader with that calling, I'm not looking at buildings saying, oh, okay, that could be a new church or there could be a new work there, or I'm not a pioneer, any of that stuff. What would you say to them based on this conversation?
We need you as well, so there's an important spot, and it one's not above the other, and that's where we get into trouble all the time, so but it's also recognizing the body of Christ, and so, so actually it's okay to encourage those apostolic leaders, it's okay to come alongside and say, okay, let them go ahead and create some mess, and how can I come and bring some structure to that whole thing, and and get behind that, and so understanding where your role is, and say, okay, I want to, I want to walk in that role, and I want to have all those voices in my life, there's such an important element to to hearing the different voices, so that you can have the healthiest ministry possible.
Yeah, I would agree, Jason. You just need to get around people who think differently than you do, because you can become your own echo chamber, or you just listen to people who think like you, and we need all the voices, and I would also add, is that I don't think the majority of pastors, and Jason, you could push back on this if you disagree, but I don't think the majority of pastors actually carry an apostolic call. I think it's actually a smaller percentage. So, when you think of the five fold ministry, I don't think it's 20% 20% 20% 20% 20% I actually think pastor teachers probably are largest percentage, which makes sense, because local churches need pastor teachers more than probably they need even apostolic leadership, but there's got to be apples, you got to be around apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic leaders to make sure that you're the pastor teachers always got their head up looking out, and so you might have an edge for it. You might have a slight leaning towards it. Doesn't necessarily mean that that's a major part of your ministry, but Jason, like, do you think that those percentages are equal, or do you think there's fewer apostolic, fewer prophetic, and then maybe the bot, you know, teacher, pastor, evangelist, are they the bulk of our pastors? Well, I think Paul, that there's different seasons and the Lord gives gifts during different times, and I also believe that there's different anointing on different movements and organizations.
Nations and I actually believe us as Pentecostals of who I am, that's a call on us as Pentecostals, that this is kind of an area that God is pushing us in the kingdom, and that we need to be as Pentecostals, this is a little bit, this is when we're at our best as Pentecostals, when we're, when we're pushing that, and, and seeing where God would take us, and so, so I think maybe for us as a movement it needs to be disproportionately higher than maybe some other contents, because I think that's God's heart and God's heartbeat for us as a movement, and when we're at our best, we're fulfilling that role in the kingdom.
Yeah, I mean it's right back to our roots. They were, they were a missions, they were a missions organization before they were ever a Canadian church. It was like we're going to reach Canada so we could reach the world. It was all about planting churches so that we can send people, so I mean, I, that's a great night, Jay. I've never, and I don't know if we've ever talked about that before.
When you see the POC in our history, when we're at our best is when we're actually celebrating apostolic leadership.
I love that. Great thoughts. Well, Jay, thanks so much for jumping on. We do have a lightning round of questions that have
nothing is free, so I know you have to give them
something. If I give
them no answer, no, but
you got to answer them quickly. You got to answer them quickly. Okay. So, question number one: Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?
Yes. Celebrate, uh Uh, my wife in the calling, she's gonna
hate me if she hears that in the spot.
He's definitely gonna hear it. We're gonna send it to it. Last book you read for fun, the last book you read for fun, not a leadership book, but just like,
well, I find leadership books fun. So, okay, if it was just straight fun, I'd probably a skiing book. So I read a book on the Alps in skiing, so that's maybe the more fun one. If
you can give your 25 year old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
Find good friends and keep them.
Well, there you go, that's lightning round. You didn't get electrocuted. Well done,
you passed the test. Yeah, well done. Well, so just
as does
anyone say no to pineapple on pizza? Come on,
well, exactly.
There isn't
anything you can have it on.
I'm glad that we're ending this in unity, just as brothers. You know, this is great. This is good. So, just as the, as the final thought, I want to make sure there's a time for a final thought on this on this combo. As we're closing, Jason, anything that you're thinking, "Oh, we should have talked about this, or "I just want to close with this. What's your final thought on this conflict?
I think the big, the big overarching thing is, make room, just make room to be people, as Galatians says, in step with the Spirit, and it's not trying to manufacture anything, it's just about getting back to people who live in step with the Spirit. Where is the Holy Spirit taking us so many times we use creativity as just in the arts, and I actually believe Holy Spirit creativity is about apostolic leadership over our lives.
Paul, what about you? Any final thoughts on the conversation today?
Yeah, just inspired by some of Jason's takes, specifically the one about, you know, the movement that we're part of, Pentecost Assemblies of Canada, that you don't, you're right, we are at our best when we're out on the pioneering edges and planting and seeing new fields, and I just really love that take. Thanks, Jason,
and you know, I think we all see the need for people with that apostolic calling to not shy away from who they are, but to be who God created them to be. The kingdom needs you. To all the people where there's something stirring up inside of you about this topic today, the kingdom needs you. Canada needs you, and don't
shy away from
that. Don't shy away from that. And for those of us that don't have that apostolic calling, listen, be who God has created you to be. The kingdom needs you, Canada needs you to be who you are. So, let's all just work together to see God's kingdom come and see new churches started. So, Jason, on behalf of Paul and I, thank you so much for being on.
So good to be with
you. Yeah, today's podcast, and you know, Jason, what we really appreciate about you is obviously there's that district level of influence that you have, but you know, I really see that national influence on your life as well. You know, I talk to people from all over the place in Canada, and they all know you, and they all respect you, and they all appreciate what you do, and you know, but I. From just the national level and the district level, what you do, I just want to say, I appreciate how you serve in just the little ways as well. I remember one time you and I were downtown Toronto buying a hot dog, and you somehow knew the guy that worked at the hot dog stand. It's like we're in the biggest city,
it might not be a good thing,
and it was a good thing, it was a good thing, because it's like, how do you, it's like, how do you know this guy, and I remember you just started telling him about a new church that started in his neighborhood, and he, you know, he asked for the website of the church, and you're giving it to him, and you know, you ended off saying, let me pray for your family, and this kind of thing, and it's just, here's this random guy at the hot dog stand. You start just hearing his story, praying for him, evangelizing to him, and there was no big crowd around, you know. There's nothing, no one to impress. It was just you being you, and that's what I appreciate about you most, Jason. Is that behind the scenes you are who you are, and we just really appreciate that, of course, to all the Multiply Network podcast listeners. There's no podcast without you, so we just really appreciate you being here. Our dream is to see a healthy church in every community in Canada. Thank you for helping make that happen. And here at Multiply Network, we believe that every church can be a multiplying church. Is that right, Paul? Every church,
I'm very Christian. Every church,
and you can do that by either planting a church, by partnering with a church. And if you want any info on that, if you have any questions, head to our website, every church.ca and you can reach out to us there. Okay. God bless. We'll see you next time, everyone. Bye.