art for all

61. Art and Healing

• Sketchbook Skool • Season 3 • Episode 61

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0:00 | 54:06

This week John and Danny talk about art and healing.

From Season 3 of "art for all," the Sketchbook Skool podcast. Join artists/authors, Danny Gregory and John Muir Laws in rich discussions about the creative process.

Get your free ebook and essays at DannysEssays.com

Get your free ebook and essays at DannysEssays.com



00:00.14
dannygregory
Um, hi there and welcome to art for all the sketchbook school podcast we are I'm Danny Gregory and um. I am the founder of Sketchbook Skool I am also you know an artist and a writer and prestidigitator I'm not actually a prestidigitator because I'm not quite sure what that is but I would like to be None speaking of here's my pal John Mure laws

00:35.64
John Muir Laws
Hi I'm pal John Muer laws I am a sketching scientist. Um, wildlife biologist and and an avid advocate of of journaling and time and nature.

01:47.24
dannygregory
There you go? Yes, So what we do on this podcast If you're new to it and even if you're not is we pick a subject and then we try to adhere to it as we have a conversation about it. But.

01:13.14
John Muir Laws
And Danny's buddy

02:22.46
dannygregory
We may tend to stray far afield and in fact, we have often not managed to tackle the subject at all so we'll see we'll see how it goes Today. We have a subject which we are fond of I also wanted to tell you at the beginning of this episode that this is. The end of the season that we've been calling the curious sketchbook we've done I think this's the none episode is it possible but we've done that many. But yeah I think so I think so I think it is the or maybe it's the none anyway, it's it's been a lot. We've had a lot of conversations.

02:37.70
John Muir Laws
Wow, That's very cool.

03:33.64
dannygregory
So we basically spoken for almost of we have spoken for a full 24 hours yeah

03:08.20
John Muir Laws
And that's that's that's pretty good with no coffee. Just.

03:52.88
dannygregory
Just pure whatever it is pure I don't know I've been drinking water Chutzpah Yes chutzpah. So um, we've been mansplaining for a full day and now we are moving on.

03:26.14
John Muir Laws
<unk>

04:29.60
dannygregory
So all right? So today's subject is healing healing effects of art can art heal us and um, you know I think I like to believe that it can. Jack what about you? Do you believe it can.

04:28.20
John Muir Laws
Um I like the way that you said that you said I like to believe that it can because that leaves room for us us to be wrong and but it my my my my personal experience. Um. Is that when I know um, but for for me most of my art work is kind of coupled with an experience in nature and I think that the 2 of those together are a really powerful one None um, healing balm and the but I haven't I don't have a ah ah ah, data set but be fun to kind of unpack the what we've. What our experiences are and what we've seen with others in exploring art and exploring art and nature as as ways of recovering from trauma of any kind.

07:19.22
dannygregory
Um, yeah I think um I don't know of any studies that have been done I think there have been studies done on meditation. So. It's possible that there's some connection there? Um, but I think anecdotal information does it for me I'm not not. Necessarily always a data guy. So I think that I know from my own personal experience that art making has helped me to gain perspective has helped me to de distresss um has helped me to to get through some. Tough times I think looking at art is the other aspect of this is can looking at art also help you to heal and um, you know I think that that's another component of this. In fact, you know there's a ah the metropolitan museum in New York has a new podcast which the name of which so I can't think of the moment but we can probably put in the show notes. But it's entirely about the healing aspects of art. So yes, um, and there are lots of different story. Each episode is a story.

08:53.92
John Muir Laws
Ah.

09:47.26
dannygregory
About people who often through the collection of the museum have found solace of found perspective and I think that that's interesting that an institution like that decided that that's an important message because I think I think that we don't think about that enough I mean. And usually when I mention healing to people they say oh yeah art therapy and I'm not talking about art therapy specifically art therapy is I'm sure a great thing I've never experienced it. But um, what I'm talking about is something different which is how um. Going through the steps of making art can change how you feel I think it's that simple and I think that feeling can ah apply to to healing it can ah it can also apply to literal healing like healing from a disease you know I think it can help you to to you know perhaps have ah a different outlook. Um, perhaps to have ah you know to detoxify sort of mentally in some ways that can help in healing but I don't want to go that far down that road because I don't have a lot of personal experience with that. So um, but you know I think that have you ever had an experience like this. Have you ever had an experience where you were for instance under stress or something else like that. Yeah.

11:51.10
John Muir Laws
Absolutely absolutely and I think that was what I wanted to sort of talk about None My kind of the thing that really brought me to nature journaling the time I really started to dive into it was in high school and that was a ah time of. Really really high stress and anxiety for me and my I would I would during the day I would check out by just kind of going into this doodle space In. Margins of every page every book every piece of paper that I had and but and that would kind of hold me through um until school would end and I could go grab my nature journal. And on the way home instead of going directly home I would arc into Golden Gate park and roam around and explore and look at birds and draw plants and try to to find cool things going on and. That was that was my my way of of getting through that time. It's it's tough being a high school kid and it's tough being an awkward high school kid. Um, but I know that for me that that art. Was a was it was a deliberate practice that helped me helped me cope.

15:51.36
dannygregory
Um, yeah, Absolutely I think I mean I think a lot of teenagers are drawn to art possibly for that reason. Unconsciously Um, you know as ah as a source of giving you control I think that's another thing I think even going back to when we were small children I Think. My son drawing like giant like Battlefields with like None of like little guys you know with weapons all like you know huge armies of people. Um, but I think you know and I always thought like that's interesting like he's created a world that's entirely his world that he can make and do stuff in. Think that that's part of the process when we're kids of of you know kids who generally don't feel like they have much control over the world. Um, you can make a world. You can take a piece of paper and you can make a world and you can make people happy if they aren't Happy. You can make them clear if they're confusing. Um I think from the very beginning using drawing as a way of making sense is very sort of natural and and right so so I think that and I think you know using drawing to to think things through right Using. Diagrams which are a form of drawing um using putting stuff down on paper in order to see it that is That's not essentially healing but it is still a way of you know, using drawing to help us you know with our psychological states and um. That is something again. My concern about this area is that I think because a lot of people most people don't think they can draw right? I just I can't draw a straight line I can't draw a stick figure that that whole thing. Um they deny themselves. This tool this tool that will help you to impose order will help you to relax to to um you know to Heal. So I think that that's a shame because my sense is that making. Poor art making bad art is just as effective in its healing and meditative and and um, sort of control features as making great art is like you don't have to do an incredible drawing to still be able to have those internal processes. You know the the ability to focus the ability to get into the flow State. All those things have nothing to do with whether or not it's a good drawing and if we if we deny ourselves the ability to use these tools because we think it's not going to be any good. That's a shame.

20:44.68
John Muir Laws
Yeah I tend to stare away from those those those terms good. Great art, bad art. Um those those sorts of things for exactly the reason that you described I think that you were you were um. I Don't think you're you're saying like oh that's bad art over there. But what we often will think and sometimes in our in our heads will tell ourselves like oh this isn't really representative therefore bad. Um, and so ah, my um I'm guessing that you're and you're not saying that that is.

22:15.34
dannygregory
Right.

21:58.84
John Muir Laws
If something that is not representative then then it is in some way bad, but you're you're using that to sort of describe the mental state in our head of when we say like oh I'm not good at art I Can only do I can't do those those sorts of great things yet. Um.

23:09.50
dannygregory
Yeah, that's exactly what I do mean it's like it's if if your yeah if your feeling is I'm not going to draw because it'll be bad then you're missing out drawing and you're also missing out the the benefits of it because it really has nothing to do with that and I think if you look at a little kid.

22:37.94
John Muir Laws
And so yeah, yeah, we're totally on the same page here.

23:47.80
dannygregory
Doing a drawing and you know getting lost in that moment or feeling like this gives me perspective again. The quote unquote goodness of the drawing has nothing to do with that.

23:34.84
John Muir Laws
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, there's and you I think you very articulated really well both sort of the the benefits of the what and the how so on the what side of this you can be drawing in ways that express your feelings.

24:23.82
dannygregory
The welcome.

24:13.56
John Muir Laws
If You're feeling really angry about something you can create drawings that that can come out in a way that is is not hurting somebody and also helps you um, kind of get clear like Wow look at what's coming up in that. Um. So expressing feelings. Um on also clarifying thinking you talked about making diagrams and pictures that just help you kind of go from a state of confusion to clarity when you get ideas out of your head and onto Paper. You're better able to wrap your head around these things and as part of that if you're using pictures that helps you kind of go in a direction that is different than if you're just writing in a diary they're they're both good I'm not saying don't write in a diary but I'm saying that this. That drawing the pictures and the doodles and the things that come out of that have an added. It's it's It's a yes and sort of thing. Um, and then you also talked about just how being involved in that process helps you kind of. Drop into a flow state and find calm and completely aside from what the content of the art is that process of making art. Can. Focus your mind and then the that that chatter of all the little problems jockeying for attention can be kind of placed aside. As your brain is able to focus again on whatever Phenomenon or process that you're engaging with and that for its own sake is really useful for for me. That's a big part part of it when I'm feeling stressed Sometimes my wife says honey. I Think you need to go grab your journal and just go for a walk and so I'm going to get a little bit of exercise but the the idea of you not saying just go for a walk but she's saying grab that journal because if you go out and you draw something your mental state is going to Change. There is sort of a stillness that you can find that I find hard to access in other ways.

30:00.46
dannygregory
Um, yeah, it gives you literal clarity. You know it gives you distance and it gives you literal clarity distance because the flow state kind of changes your perception of time so you know whatever mood you are in is sort of like a hiatus and then it's some likely you're going to pick it up exactly where you dropped it.

29:45.46
John Muir Laws
Yeah.

30:37.66
dannygregory
But I think also um, yeah, perspective because while you're drawing other parts of your brain are doing other things I think a very simple thing to do put on a piece of music pick up a pen and make marks and try this as an experiment just take.

30:23.80
John Muir Laws
And death. Yep.

31:16.60
dannygregory
Ah, 4 pieces of music and make a playlist on Spotify or whatever, completely different kinds of music take something really fast, take something really calm take something really emotional take something that's really upbeat and fun. And then take a pen and a piece of paper and let the the playlist play and then just see what your hand does see what hand does to express how you're feeling you know and let it just jitter and dance and play around. You know, just something as simple as that can. Also. Function in this way. Um, but and then to do a drawing where you are focused on a thing and for instance, take the palm of your hand and try drawing the tracery of the lines just take you know, don't draw your fingers just draw the little. Lines that go across your palm and just try and draw each little one and draw it and then do the next one or the next one. So so you're drawing a shape you're observing. You're looking and you are slowly in that float state take your time and again, that's the kind of drawing that like it's never can't be wrong. Nobody's ever going to say well hold on a none you miss that little line. No, it's just it's just like a little It's just a little thing to look at you know I like to take a piece of toast take a piece of toast and draw every little crumb 1 draw None crumb draw the crumb next to it draw the next hole. You know, just draw your way slowly across a piece of toast really calming sort of meditative kind of way of doing things.

34:09.48
John Muir Laws
And then if you get a crummy drawing That's actually the point.

34:55.68
dannygregory
Ah, then then you can toast your drawing exactly with them do boom Exactly oh all, right enough dad jokes for one one up is earth.

34:24.00
John Muir Laws
Ah, that's there We go there. We go Oh and then you're out of a jam not to butter you up or anything. Stuff of that.

35:29.58
dannygregory
But yeah, so I think I think things like that where it's It's not representational. So You don't have any of the judgment issues going on and that just that kind of thing I mean I also have done things where I've drawn without a pen you know where you go through the motions of drawing where you're looking at something as if you were drawing it. But you are not actually putting a pen to paper so you're still tracing around it. You're looking at each of the details you're doing all the things you would do if you were drawing it. But you're not drawing it So That's another way I think of having sort of non-judgmental art experience. Um, but also when it comes to nature I mean taking a leaf and doing that with it drawing negative space is another thing drawing just draw the sky around the clouds just little things that are just calming and sort of like little puzzles to to work out.

36:42.26
John Muir Laws
You know one of the and the things we do when we are in a really agitated um an agitated mind State is what's called rumination where you just are kind of so just reworking and stressing about the same idea. Um, if you are you know?? What's the the it's it's it's hard to to sometimes get an adult to lay on their back and look up and find animals in the clouds. But if you were to look up those same clouds and just sort of trace the negative shapes of them into to.

38:06.28
dannygregory
I. Yeah.

37:59.36
John Muir Laws
To do that Your you can't You can't ruminate at the same time as as as doing that because it takes so much of your mental resources to kind of go into that negative shape and try to connect the motions of your finger. We don't have the bandwidth to do that and to be um to be ruminating So That's ah, it's a very effective way of of turning um ah of of of changing your mind.

39:45.40
dannygregory
I mean I've been in situations where a loved one was in the hospital and you go and you're sitting by their bedside you know and you want to be present. But maybe they're napping or you know they're not available to you at that moment. Um, and you can still be present.

39:10.56
John Muir Laws
Changing your state of mind.

40:22.92
dannygregory
Because I think that's a lot of what your being there to support your loved None is about It's like I'm here for you I'm literally here I'm not on Facebook you know I'm here for you with you and drawing can help you do that so you could sit there with a sketchbook and you could draw. Tangle of wires coming out of the you know the monitoring equipment by their bed. You could draw the folds of the blanket on their bed. You could draw them if you feel up to it but you can just again, be present and your drawing will give you a calming energy. Also help you to get through the time you know I mean I think about how how many situations you're in that are potentially very stressful because you're doing nothing and you feel out of control so being in a waiting room and hospital is a classic example of that waiting for a plane that's delayed you know sitting in the airport. And you know you have no, you don't know how long it's going to be until you can board. So you know you can use drawing again in this situation to just get through this time by doing something you know draw I mean if you want if you feel capable of drawing another passenger. Who's sitting and they're on Facebook draw them you know draw the plane outside the window do things that will help you be present but without being anxious about that presence.

42:42.90
John Muir Laws
That's right and you've got a choice then of of either some people will often do something to check out in that time. So I'm just going to go on my phone or here's this little word game that I have on my phone or. I'm going to check my texts and I'm going to reply to those and you can keep yourself busy. Um, so we'll use those things as a distraction from the moment we're in I know that when my um when I was at my um. My mom's bedside in the last um few months of her life the energy that I brought to the room if I had my laptop was different than if I brought my sketchbook. And one was to check out and the other was to tune in.

45:17.98
dannygregory
That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, your your sketchbook helps you to see what is happening you know and be engaged with it but also without the space for your mind to. Draw all kinds of conclusions from what you're experiencing. That was my experience when my my None wife had you know her her accident that left her para paralyzed to me that was a huge space mental space to. Develop theories about the future you know and to think endlessly about what would be all fantasy. It's all fantasy Any Any vision we have of the future is just a mental concoction because we don't actually know but we do know about the present because we're in it right? so. So if you can if your sketchbook can help to you to anchor it and to say you know what? I'm here now maybe things will change. Maybe they'll get worse I don't know maybe they'll get better I don't know that either but I can be here now I can lend my support but also I can see what actually is and seeing what is often makes it bearable. You know, even if it's terribly dire. It can It can make it bearable.

47:12.60
John Muir Laws
That's right to the the idea of not to hide from that moment but to be there as fully as you can. Um I don't think of that the the Journal. Then is not.. It's not a distraction. Um, but an invitation to to to remain there. You're saying but I I can't ruminate about these things while I'm doing that Well, that's right? But I think that sometimes the feeling we have of active rumination. Feel like you know it's It's very very stressful. It's very very engaging and we can get the subjective experience that that is that that equals really vividly experiencing the moment. Um, but I think. That is actually that's that's more of that's that's a distraction. Um, that kind of wallowing in the rumination. Um, it's not being present in a productive. Way I say is is is often not being being present in a productive way. Um, and it and it feels but it but it has It's got the subjective feeling of like I'm really I'm really here and I'm really engaged in it. But I'm really just sort of cycling the same sort of thoughts and ideas And. Ah, through my head again and again and again and again instead of helping me be as you said in that in that place right now and paying attention to that moment.

51:21.38
dannygregory
Um, yeah I Think that's what you need and I think that's who the person you're supporting these I mean I think back at the beginning of the pandemic. You know that was a really stressful time for everybody of course and we had no idea what was going to happen that was what a lot of it was like what what is going to happen. How long will this last? What will the effects of it be is this the end of the world. I mean there are all kinds of thoughts that we could easily have you know and I found myself doing a lot of journaling but not written journaling that much I didn't find written journaling was helpful because. Because my experience of written journaling in really times of stress is they can rather than diffusing your anxiety they feed it. They can't feed it. They can feed it because because your thought process on paper builds.

52:23.46
John Muir Laws
It's interesting.

53:08.36
dannygregory
This could happen then that could happen and this could happen and then that won't happen and you know you can go through this whole sort of stacking of anxieties whereas if you can look at the world and that's what I was doing at the independent Pandemic I was saying you know what. I Don't know what's goingnna happen but I can I do know what is happening like right now I don't have Covid nor does anybody who I love I'm here I'm safe I'm able to look at my environment and I don't know how long I'm gonna be here How long I'm going to be stuck in the house. Well. That could feel really claustrophobic and anxiety provoking or you can say let's see what here. What is now what is here? What is this? What is my environment. You know what are the opportunities here for me to entertain myself for me to to. Anchor myself How can I interact with the other people around me all these kinds of things they're present you know or how can I Also maybe not think about it at all, but just be just be here in the moment and become be present be okay and you know. I Can think about that other stuff later on I Personally I've always found meditation to be almost impossibly hard because my brain just won't stop until I'm drawing and then when I'm drawing all these other all these other processes fade away and I'm just here now using most of my brain to just observe and record. And that's really, um, you come away from it feeling like you've you've broken the cycle.

56:08.60
John Muir Laws
it's it's it's really interesting to me that your your that your experience of of writing things you find kind of stacks, pressure and and and and stress up that is that's different than than my. Experience of it which I guess is why having these conversations is so useful because we find that there's just so many different people that ah a route or a process might work for None person but might not be the key for another. My experience with writing has been that it it really helps me to be able to to clear my mind I start with just sort of I've got these feelings of just floating anxiety and then if I can articulate those. Onto paper instead of just being these these these feelings of of dread or out of controlness those then they they can sit on the piece of paper and I can look down on them I can I can see them and kind of go like okay, so that's that's what it is and then here's the next thing and that's what it is. And that for me I find that very freeing it helps me able to to see them to bound them and then to be able to move on from that. So my experience isn't so much that it's at this stacking of those things but more of an articulation place that journal is a place to articulate all those just. Feelings that I'm having what's behind those and then when they're when they're daylighted. They're not as fierce and that helps me then be able to um so so for me, it's it's a. It's a positive experience using the writing but I find that when I'm drawing. It's it's a different experience and I'm not saying that one is better than the other but they're both They're both really useful in different ways of. Of being present and engaging with whatever is is is going on and sometimes sometimes I don't want to draw on sometimes I don't want to write and fortunately when I don't want to draw writing things there and so I want to write you know drawings there. Um. And they just they work in such just different ways.

01:01:46.96
dannygregory
Um, yeah I mean as you're saying it I'm thinking to myself. There certainly are times when I need to write if I wake up in the middle of the night and I have an idea that is grinding in my head. Not a not a. Um, sometimes like a good idea like hey it's a good idea but sometimes just like an an anxiety dark scenarios. Um in that situation getting it out on paper gets it out of my head I agree with that I agree with that. But I'm thinking if I was sitting in. Hospital room with somebody and I was writing how I was feeling then I don't think it would be helpful I think it would exacerbate it. You know so I don't know if it's such I mean because I could be writing like she'll be okay, it'll be okay, you know the doctor's going to come I mean I could write all that kind of stuff. I Don't think that that would help me so I'm trying to think of what is the difference is the difference that you have a situation where you really have no control and so you're trying to exert control over it by hypothesizing that maybe in that situation. That's different than coming up with a solution to a problem I don't know I.

01:03:36.94
John Muir Laws
Yeah, ah yeah, and and I think that sitting there writing it's going to be Okay, it's going to be Okay, um, you know those aren't the things which we should be saying to ourselves or the other person I think that because.

01:04:17.12
dannygregory
And as I'm saying it I'm still not sure what I think.

01:04:16.84
John Muir Laws
Um, because we don't know um and yeah and but but but I think being being to say like you know I I have fear about this right is different and and saying that I I remember this.

01:04:56.64
dannygregory
Um, yeah, that's denial that's denial.

01:04:55.64
John Muir Laws
Thing that we did together and this moment you know it's crazy that I'm thinking about this now but wasn't that fun or wasn't that amazing that we got through that and just you know, letting that that moment get down on paper. There's ah, there's a memory that burbles up I'm go. Ah I'm gonna capture that there's um. Ah, fear that I have I'm going to capture that so being being present with those as they as they come By. Um, for me, that's that's that's a useful process. But I agree that to to sit there.

01:06:43.30
dannygregory
Yeah.

01:06:12.44
John Muir Laws
And and then sort of tell myself on favor. You know it's gonna be okay this is gonna be fine. Um, yeah, yeah, and that's different and that's right? But yeah, that's right and and and if but if you're.

01:06:55.28
dannygregory
Or alternatively it's not going to be Okay, it's going to be terrible. These horrible things are going to happen I can't imagine that that could be helpful.

01:06:46.20
John Muir Laws
There and you're you're drawing the tube. Um, you are what you're what you're in the space right? then of of this is and and I'm here too and. That is That's really powerful. That's that's powerful. That's useful and I think it's healing.

01:08:16.86
dannygregory
Um, is writing harder to anchor yourself in the present with I mean it.

01:07:55.29
John Muir Laws
Who I I Guess that'd be so just so situational to the person and the experience. Um I found for for for me. That the you know I would would find myself you know drawing My Mom's hand um or and then around that would be this these sort of little kind of captured ideas and thoughts that would would float through.

01:09:43.32
dannygregory
Would you write those down on your page right.

01:09:09.96
John Muir Laws
Um, those those are written down on the page as well and that it was just sort of this. It was an experience capture system and it helped me. That's that's that's so different. That's so different than like I'm going to be in the room with you but I'm going to check my email because there's a lot of email right.

01:10:39.96
dannygregory
Right? So maybe that's the point is that you can engage in what's going on. You can engage by talking you know and so often when you listen to people in hospitals. They're not talking about the present a lot of times they're having small talk you know and they're It's like ah again, it's another form of distraction and it's fine I think you want to normalize things. But I think if you're sitting there and with your sketchbook on your lap and your drawing and your writing um, it's very different than if you're trying to be not present by watching Tv or. Reading the newspaper or just you know, wiling away the time. So I it which isn't to say that I mean it. It may be too much. Maybe maybe like I don't know if I could sit there for 8 hours doing that.

01:11:30.94
John Muir Laws
That's right.

01:11:47.12
John Muir Laws
That's that's right were we're We're not saying you're doing your you're you're doing it wrong when you're hanging out with your friend in the hospital. Um the but this these might be interesting things to explore and see how.

01:12:34.18
dannygregory
Right? exactly.

01:12:21.62
John Muir Laws
They how they connect with you in those sorts of experiences. Um, there's there's an an another There's another aspect to this that I think would be kind of fun to. Or interesting to to look at um and that is directly using ah a journal and art or in in my case art and writing as a way to direct. Ah. Tension directly towards the source of the of of trauma that you've experienced as a way of understanding it and helping you move through that in in thinking of this I'm thinking in particular. Um. I I have a friend who is developing all sorts of resources to go into communities that have been traumatized by wildfire and using a process of nature journaling. Um. That is you know direct in these in in burned areas to process what happens to to to to look at it and then to and there's there's. She's developed you know ways of thinking about how do you engage with fire in fire landscapes before during and after fire in a way that's sort of trauma informed um to help people. Be in the place that they are to pay attention to that and to use that as a way of in None case preparing and in another case responding to and in another case healing from the the impact of those wildfires.

01:17:20.48
dannygregory
That seems tough because that means is that about focusing on the present because I imagine if my house had just burnt down and I was using my art to focus on that loss that would seem very difficult.

01:16:46.14
John Muir Laws
Um, and.

01:17:09.64
John Muir Laws
Um, yeah, sort of in in the the the face of the sort of an um immediate fire sort of during in the the during obviously that your your none your none priorities are. You know, getting everybody safe and taking care of those sorts of needs. But then um, how are you going to? How do you How can you pay attention. Um. To the world when there is an an active fire. Um is it's it's it's powerful. It's it's useful I've also been in the field with her and we've gone into places where native people are working with. Foresters to do controlled burns in areas and we're looking at those places before during an after fire. Um, so in in addition to these trauma informed experiences. Um, that. Sort of framing fire as this tool and and a part of the landscape as much as rain is the and so what what I'm what I'm what I find interesting about that is that that there it is going embracing the source of the trauma as a tool to work through it. And and come out the other side as a way instead of um, kind of moving away from that I've recently been invited to go um, do some nature journaling at a. At ah, a va hospital up in Oregon and I think they're kind of the approach which we're going to be taking towards helping people who have been experienced trauma. In in combat and and other really challenging situations is it's it's going to be different from that um the approach with the fire I don't think we'll be directly in engaging with the source of of.

01:22:47.80
John Muir Laws
of of traumas but instead trying to go out into wild places into nature and ah focus our attention in that as a form of healing but it's just interesting in my head that the contrast of those those None approaches both I think have their real place. And are useful but just how interesting how different those are.

01:24:07.94
dannygregory
Um, well I wonder if there's a difference between you're in the middle of a traumatic event right? You're in the set say your community was is destroyed by fire. You're in the middle of that event and now you're gonna have to deal with what's to come all right? That's None thing. Another form of trauma is something happened to me in the past that I've lived through and I'm so alive but I'm still haunted by that experience I'm still. It's still part of me and you know is the art. That you might is the sort of healing that you need to have done in The none case is how do I kind of calm myself and focus myself so that I can deal productively with what's to happen and also acknowledge that I don't know what's to happen but I can build it I can make it I can have some control over that part of it. Can be. You know I have to be present in order to make clear decisions. Um, and I don't want to be so freaked out by what's happened that I can't function. That's None thing whereas when you have a trauma in the past that is still feels present. Maybe. Artmaking can help you to gain a focus on the present that says these are the things that are positive. These are the ways in which I am strong. These are the ways in which I have control and I can I can proceed in my life and perhaps ultimately you know. Diminish the effect that that past thing had on me I don't know if that's ah is that a different thing I don't know I'm not a psychologist but it seems like it might be like when I think about things that have happened to me in the past how I feel about them now is pretty different than how I feel when I'm in the middle of a trauma. Um and I'm in the middle of a trauma trying to. Say I have no idea what's going to happen as opposed to that thing is still here. You know I think I think there are different needs. But I think the tools can be the same. You know I mean I think you can you could create versions of stories about the past that allow you to have control over them. You can tell the story of your trauma could be None way of dealing with it. Another version of it could be let me talk about the present or let me paint a picture of the future. Um and have control over that. So again, similar to the way a child might construct their own reality in art you can. Have that as a tool as well. so um so I don't know I feel like I've experienced all these things but I don't know that I've necessarily fully analyzed how they function. But.

01:29:06.34
John Muir Laws
And maybe that's the the the place for people who actually deal professionally with art therapy sort of intentionally deliberately using these tools with what is the state of our the art of understanding.

01:29:42.40
dannygregory
Maybe maybe somebody who's listening to this can tell us.

01:29:59.44
dannygregory
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:29:46.12
John Muir Laws
How we respond to trauma and can rebuild in the aftermath of of a traumatic event. Yeah.

01:30:34.46
dannygregory
Yeah, yeah I mean I feel like in some ways I'm not I don't in any way pretend to be qualified to give people art therapy but I can say from my own experience that having art as ah, a tool or as a weapon. Um, has allowed me to live less in my mind. It's allowed me to live in the present on paper and I think it goes back to the buddhist thing of um, all there is is now and Um. We have to be as present as we can and that art making definitely allows you to do that. Definitely helps you to do that to to be here now and that that um you know pain is Inevitable. Suffering is optional suffering comes from the. Meaning that we put onto pain the the descriptions that we make of a future that we don't know about the the analyses we do of things in the past that may or may not be correct but being present and saying. This is what's going on with me now I think allows you to make a more finite thing in which to deal with you. Don't have to deal with everything that ever happened and ever will you can be present now. Um, and that isn't to say you won't need need to deal with the future you will. May need to make plans for the future. But it's very difficult to do that if you are overwhelmed and you know terrified or depressed or all those kinds of things whereas if you have some clarity it cleans you to make plans.

01:33:27.38
John Muir Laws
Or or un unwilling to pay attention to the present which is about to be the tool that you need to to to to make those plans.

01:34:12.44
dannygregory
Right? escaping it? yeah.

01:34:22.12
dannygregory
Right? denial? Yeah um, because living in denial is to say I'm not going to I'm not going to deal with what's going to happen or I'm just not going to think about and that's that's as bad as being overwhelmed by it right. Um, again, you're not living with Clarity. You're not because because sometimes clarity you know sometimes we don't want to be clear because we don't want to see how awful it is but from my experience facing the awfulness of it is usually a better plan. It's usually works better for me at least than. You know, having a ah constant sense of dread about what what it might be but I can't I can't turn my face to look at it because it seems too terrible. Um, you know I think again Clarity Calm Presence. Can't hurt all right good well have we I don't know that we've reached a conclusion beyond our own sense that we both have that this tool. However, you use it is something you should try.

01:36:14.32
John Muir Laws
Yeah.

01:36:54.14
dannygregory
And it's also something that that you should try not only in times of trauma but you should make I mean you know we all have we all have healing to do all the time and so they're you know I think having this as a part of what you do every day having some time to be present to to be conscious. Really Good. So Don't wait for a cataclysm but just try and be present in your day right now and use your art to do that. Let's start there.

01:37:17.10
John Muir Laws
I think that's that's that's that's wise and remember what we're saying earlier. It. You know as Mary Oliver says you do not have to be good right? Um, you, you just have to to to start use the tools. Um, and maybe just sort of take a be be a little scientist with it just sort of see what happens if you try and and pay attention to that. How does how does as I sit here I'm going to draw that tangle of tubes and and just notice. And and if that works do it again. Maybe in a slightly different way.

01:39:22.88
dannygregory
Yeah I think that's a good point is like sometimes the particular tool you have isn't doing it for you that isn't to say that picking up a brush or picking up a squishy marker or a box of crayons might not be better. Um, you know, try some other stuff if if at none it feels like you're you're. The the um the medium is getting in the way of your clarity that can happen sometimes I find drawing with a very fine pen helps me but other other times it's the wrong kind of thinking and seeing and I want to be broader and more expressive and free flowing and I need to. You know use a big chunky marker or a brush see what happens. Yeah, it's great I mean so it's a great thing to have in your life I think that that's hopefully the conclusion that you'll come from our 24 hours of talking about art on this podcast is making art a regular part of your life.

01:40:21.58
John Muir Laws
I agree I agree.

01:40:35.82
John Muir Laws
We like art.

01:41:18.20
dannygregory
Yeah, it's like it's a great thing. It's something that we both enjoy I I think to myself I'm ah like ah I'm certainly a calmer person I'm a happier person. Um than I was twenty years ago when I didn't do this stuff so it's worked for me. Um. And you know I think they can work for anybody.

01:41:22.78
John Muir Laws
Yeah, and and a critical that that that it that it can work for you and just sort of remember it's not about that pretty picture. It's about just engaging with this process and letting your brain have another outlet. And that outlet ends up being something that you can look down at and see what just happened and it will It will allow your brain to fall into rhythms and patterns that it otherwise wouldn't and. Our experience and the the kind of experience of many other people is that that that process for its own sake completely independent of whatever comes out on the paper is useful and ah and calming helps us focus. And is I I think a powerful tool for healing.

01:43:59.90
dannygregory
I agree. Well let's conclude there I think this is I think I don't know how but about you but I felt like this has been a really fun experience over the last few months that we've been doing this talking about art and science and life and stuff. And thanks so much Jack for being part of it with me.

01:44:05.94
John Muir Laws
Thank you so much for the invitation. Danny this has been also a delight for me as well. Um I love playing with ideas and this has just been a um ah ah playground for that. Um, so thank you for for initiating this process and. And you're also your work and logistics on the back end to turn these into into podcasts that can go get cast in the pod.

01:45:36.24
dannygregory
Um, exactly I am a I am if nothing else a technical wizard. Not really um, ah maybe that's what it is Maybe that's the term I've been looking for well and with that.

01:45:15.32
John Muir Laws
A a technical presto digitator.

01:46:12.10
dannygregory
We we leave you for now for the end of this season. We'll see what seasons there are in the future summer fall winter. We'll see thanks again. Jack this has been art for all the sketchable school podcast. Um.

01:45:58.86
John Muir Laws
Thank you so much.

01:46:50.48
dannygregory
Are.