The Girl from Greenwich Street by Lauren Willig

New York Times bestselling author Lauren Willig is our guest! Join us to discuss her new novel, The Girl from Greenwich Street. The Girl from Greenwich Street is a gripping historical thriller based on a real 1799 murder case that united bitter political rivals Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr in an explosive courtroom drama. When young Elma Sands disappears just before Christmas and is later found dead, public outrage targets a local carpenter—forcing Burr and Hamilton into an uneasy alliance to defend him. As the trial unfolds against the backdrop of a high-stakes election, the novel weaves mystery, ambition, and betrayal into a shocking final revelation about the woman at the heart of it all.

Transcript

Jane: 0:02

Welcome to Historical Happy Hour, the podcast that explores new and exciting historical fiction novels. I'm your host Jane Healy, and in today's e episode, we welcome back New York Times bestselling author Lauren Willig to discuss her latest novel, the Girl from Greenwich Street. I'm gonna learn how to hold. I call this, oh, you're good. Yeah. I guess I should. A novel of Hamilton Burr and America's first Murder trial. Historical Novel Society said, Willie's latest book reads as an edge of your seat crime novel with sharp, panoramic characterization, characterizations and twists. Seemingly too fantastic to be true. Again, welcome back Lauren. Thank you so much for having me. I am so delighted to be back here with you. Me too. So I'm gonna do a quick bio and then I have a bunch of questions and everyone remember to put your questions in the chat or the q and a. I'll take questions at the end from the audience. Lauren Willig is the New York Times and USA today bestselling author of More than 25 works of historical fiction, including Band of Sisters, the summer country, the English wife, and the reader Award-winning Pink Carnation series. Her books have been translated into over 20 languages. Picked for Book of the Month Club awarded the Rita Bookseller's Best and Golden Leaf Awards, an alumna of Yale University. She has a graduate degree in history from Harvard and a JD from Harvard Law. She lives in New York City with her husband, two young children and vast quantities of coffee, which we have to have a coffee again when you're back in town or I'm in New York.

Lauren: 1:30

We absolutely do. Yes.

Jane: 1:32

So good to see you again and even if it's only virtual. So I remember when we were when you were doing the event at Books Bookends in Winchester, mass. Yes. And we had coffee before and you talked about the premise of the girl from Greenwich Street and I was like, oh, that is amazing. I can't wait to hear more about this story. So talk about how you came up with the idea of the girl from Rena Street and what began at all.

Lauren: 1:57

I wish I could claim I came up with the idea, but this is the first book I have ever written where everything and any and everyone in it are all drawn from the historical record.'cause usually, I write books like you do where you've got imaginary characters in the midst of real events and situations, but your primary characters are fictional. They're your own inventions. So you can play with their emotions and their narrative arcs, to your heart's contend. And, leave the real people for side characters where you worry less about doing violence to the characters of real people. But this book, I could not resist this story, this very real story. I stumbled across it, goodness, something like eight years ago now. It was a while back I was scrolling through Instagram or some other very useful, social media outlet. And I came across. A bit about the Manhattan murder, where a young woman in 1799 left her Quaker cousin's boarding house and never came home and then fished up in the Manhattan. Two weeks later, and a young carpenter who also lived at the boarding house was immediately arrested for her murder. And the resulting trial was the talk of the new Century because it featured among other things, a legal dream team of Brock Holt Livingston, who you don't know about unless you've gone to law school and had to read Pearson V Post. But Brock Holt, Livingston. Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton working together for the defense just four years before the fatal dual and just weeks before the 1800 New York elections where they're trying to tear each other to shreds. I thought, oh my God, this is crazy and amazing. Burr and Hamilton in the same courtroom, and so I fell down the rabbit hole as one does when one's avoiding the books. One is under contract to write. And I read a book about a nonfiction book about the case, which at the time I thought was amazing. And then that led me to the coolest thing about this case, which is the transcript. So this is America's first fully recorded murder trial. It is not, as people say, America's first murder trial, including my cover, it's so annoying. It's not America's first murder trial. There had been plenty of murder trials. It's America's first fully recorded murder trial.'cause the clerk of the court, William Coleman, had learned this cool new thing called shorthand. And so he took down two jam packed days of testimony. Verbatim, really verbatim. You get the cadences of their voices, you get the stuff they blurt out. And I read that transcript and I was. Hooked. But I also noticed that there was a lot in that transcript that seemed to differ from what I'd read in that nonfiction book about the case. And so I started digging deeper. I started digging into the footnotes of the supposedly nonfiction book. I realized a lot of it was just plain wrong. And I started hunting down. This is what always happens. You start hunting down one thing and then another. And before I knew it, I was in the midst of a two year archival deep dive trying to reconstruct who had murdered alma sands. And what really happened in that courtroom with Hamilton and Burr arguing both together and against each other for the defense.

Jane: 5:29

So fascinating and what a gem of a story to find. And I, you, I was reading your historical note at the end, and for all you nerds who love historical like footnotes as much as I do, I love historical author notes at the end. You're gonna love this one'cause it's. So detailed, and I just wanna quote from it. So the Manhattan, well murder has become a game of telephone with stories being told and retold, often well removed from or from the original stories. The layers of myth, legend and misinformation have become more confusing over time. So talk about your extensive research and how you were able to sift through all of this history and legend and get, find the narrative for the novel.

Lauren: 6:13

Oh my goodness. That's it. The quote you just read that encapsulates the problem. I, and I can tell you a funny story. It's it's a commonplace in New York that the well, where Elma Sands was found is still here. There are Ghost Tour that go past this well. People claim to hear Elma calling for justice from its stony confines, and it's in the basement of it. A clothing store at 1 29 Spring Street in the men's wear section, and everyone agrees this is the well. And when you Google the address of the clothing store, you get the name of the clothing store and murder well, but there's a slight problem. It's not actually the so this was something I, because I was concerned where, with, where things were in 17 99, 1800, not now. So I had never thought to question the fact that what everyone said was the well until after the book had already gone to press. And I was chatting with an urban historian who was like, yeah, that's an 1817 cistern. I was like, oh my God. So I went looking and he was completely right. It's an 1817 cistern that was built, 17 years after. Both. I guess if you factor in, she was killed in late December 22nd, 1799, so it was built 17 to 18 years after Alma was murdered. But everyone agrees that's the wow. And so I do feel like that's emblematic of this case because there are things which everyone knows, they get repeated over and over. They get repeated in print books, they get repeated you in blogs, in podcasts and articles, and you think, oh my gosh, if so many people say this, it must be true. Then you poke at it and it falls apart. I could give you thousands of examples about this. In the case. There was, so the papers went wild when Alma's body was found because New York had a number of newspapers and in an era before other amusements and scrolling on Instagram. Everyone is reading their papers and the papers went wild with all of these stories about this poor, innocent Quaker girl Juliana sand seduced and betrayed who was Lord from her aunts and uncle's house by this evil rogue seducer who got her pregnant and killed her to avoid having to marry her. Right there, In those early accounts and in the diary entries people writing about what they've heard about the case are all sorts of fallacies. She lived with a cousin, not her aunt and uncle. Her name wasn't Juliana, it was Julian Alma. I. Oh, they all say she was engaged to Levi. There's no proof she was engaged him. She wasn't pregnant at the time of her death. I can go on and on, but the crazy thing is so many of these mistaken things still show up in articles today. They're just, because people draw them from the old articles, it's if it was printed in eight in January, 1800, it must be true. But the most egregious example of this, I think has to do not with Alma and her personal history, although I could complain about that for hours. It has to do with the blockbuster famous lawyers in the case. I. And most specifically with the question of why Alexander Hamilton took the case, because he does not do criminal law. Neither does Burr really, but Burr had a business relationship with Levi, weeks' older brother Ezra Weeks, so that one totally makes sense. Levi gets banged up in Broadwell prison on a murder charge, and Ezra Weeks goes and calls in a favor from Aaron Burr. Brock Holst. Livingston also makes sense. He is the best criminal lawyer in town. If I were accused of murder in 1800 New York, it is Brock Holst. I would want on the stand for me. Earlier that previous, the previous year, he had managed to get a murderer off on a murder charge who was literally found holding the bloody knife over the body. He is that good. But Hamilton. This is not his thing. And on top of it, he is ridiculously busy in early 1800. He's running the American army. And Hamilton, he is sweating every single detail. Like how many steps per minute the soldier should march. Are there hats cocked on all sides as opposed to only two? It's Hamilton. And he has a busy commercial law practice because. He has a lot of kids and tuitions don't come cheap. And he's also promised Eli that he's gonna build her a country house and he needs money for these things. So he is working like crazy and he's busy trying to thwart Burr and burr's Republican party who he thinks are going to ruin the nascent republic Anyway, so his take of this case doesn't really make sense. So the story that's always told is that he does it reluctantly as a favor. To Ezra Weeks because he owes Ezra Weeks money because Ezra Weeks is a contractor who builds Hamilton's country house, the Grange, and it's a great story. It totally works until you look at the timeline at the Grange and you realize Hamilton does not buy the land on which the Grange is situated until four months after the trial. He hires the architect the following year. And so how can he owe Ezra Week's money for a house that hasn't been built, that hasn't been designed and that he doesn't even own a plot of land to put it on? It doesn't follow. And the crazy thing is, the only person I saw who had flagged this was a legal scholar in the 1950s. He was like, yeah, this doesn't work. But his theory was. That this is Hamilton. Hamilton is probably thinking, he knows he wants to build a country house. That, okay, if he gets Levi weeks off for murder Ezra Weeks will have to be his contractor. New York is growing rapidly. Good contractors are hard to find. You do what you have to do to get them. And also this case, within the first week after Alma's body is found, this has become the thing. Everyone is talking about, and we know this because they helpfully wrote in their diaries. Everyone is speaking of Levi Weeks and Juliana or whoever they called her, Juliana Sands and so on. So we know that this was already a cause Celebra, and it would be so Hamilton to decide that he is not going to let Burr dominate that courtroom and the public attention and to insert himself. Into the case, but this is, it turns the story that's traditionally told entirely on its head.

Jane: 12:52

So interesting. Yes. I, to insert himself right into the middle of it. And this may not have been America's first murder trial, but it seems like it was one of the first really sensationalized ones, right? Like it, like the whole city of New York was wrapped and could not get enough of it, and everyone had an opinion. You make that very clear in the book, even the, yeah. It's so interesting. I wanna talk, you brought up Elma Sands. Who was the girl who was found in the who was murdered. And you say, she was the largest blank you had to fill. In your note you say that Elma in books and articles is portrayed as one dimensional. The Madonna or the who attempting to find Elma is complicated by the absence of her own voice. How did you ultimately get a better understanding about this woman at the heart of the case?

Lauren: 13:39

It was a piecemeal, it was like putting together a mosaic. It was a piecemeal act of reconstruction. So I do think because most of the people who have written about this case are primarily interested in the blockbuster lawyers in the courtroom, they tend to trample over Elma and their urge to talk about Hamilton and Burr. And then on top of that there is, I think the, tendency to flatten female murder victims into either a Madonna or a who. So that nonfiction book that drove me ab absolutely bonkers begins with a scene where Alma is visiting a museum with Levi and her cousin Hope. And we know this happened because there's a record of. Them going on this little museum excursion. But he says, Alma's feeling melancholy because that's just the way she is. And she's longing for a sip of lanu because, she really likes her Laden. And I'm there flipping to the back of the book being like, okay, where did he find this? What sources does he have that I don't have? What does he know that I don't know? It simply references back to the trial. And there's a whole thing where the defense tries to portray Alma as a melancholy, Lana addicted and info manc, but this is a defense tactic and frankly, no one buys the melancholy Lana addict story at the time. It just, it's the weakest part of the defense's case, like here in this modern narrative nonfiction book. It's being taken as for granted that this was who Alma was, and that drove me absolutely bonkers. But so to find Alma, what I wound up doing was, so part of what was driving me crazy was that even basic details of Alma's background. Were muddled, or misportrayed, a lot of people would say that she was raised by her grandfather, the Quaker preacher, David Sands, he's not her grandfather, and these things, these small details, they matter because they give you a picture of who she was and where she came from. So what I was. Able to finally reassemble was, so Elma grew up in New Cornwall, New York now just called Cornwall. My husband makes fun of me because I call it New Cornwall and no one has called it that for 200 years. It's near West Point on the Hudson anyway, but she grew up in Cornwall, New York. Her mother was the much younger sister. Of a hell fire and brimstone Quaker preacher. And when we, when I say much younger, we're talking a full generation apart and she, her elmas mother, Elizabeth gets pregnant at 16 and. We don't know who the father is. In the trial, they say that Elmas mother was never married and that Elmas father is alive and living in Charleston. And I tried to figure out who this guy was and if he existed or if this is the girlfriend in Canada from Avenue Q and he's just an excuse. But my theory is it's most likely he was a revolutionary soldier from the South who was passing through New Cornwall because there was a lot of Patriot troop movement there. Anyway, long story, but that, it won't be, wouldn't be the first time a teenage girl fell for a guy in a uniform and then had to face the consequences and. The second she starts showing her pregnancy, her older brother, this, very fiery preacher, immediately discovers an urge to minister to the heathens of Rhode Island and to camps for two years, which I think gives you a sense of Alma's impact on the family. And so Alma grows up as the illegitimate cousin, the family disgrace. But from the testimony, the bits and pieces that come through. She doesn't accept that role. She likes finery. She likes nice things. She's her cousin, complains that she's too gay for a Quaker, but that she tries to change her dress and so on to please them. But she refuses to join the Quaker meeting. Here she is in this Quaker family. She will not. Go to meeting, she will not use the, and thou and she dresses, in the sort of the bright, cheap finery of the day. And you get a, you start to get a sense of Elma, not as a melancholy woman, long yearning for a tip of lanu. But as a very strong-willed woman who wants. Yeah, and honestly who's also, she's looking for a father figure in her life and for absolutely for a ticket out of this boarding house where she is really sorry, one last Elma story. I think another thing that's very telling. Is that. So in the summer of 1799, and to me, this is really where this story begins, even though the book doesn't begin there, in the summer of 1799, there is a yellow fever epidemic in New York and Elmas cousin Catherine ring, the proprietor of the boarding house, takes her four young children and her younger sister, hope, who's Alma's friend and compatriot, and they all decamp. For the safe countryside in New York, new Cornwall, New York, and they leave Alma to risk the yellow fever and run the boarding house with Catherine's husband, Elias Ring and all the male borderers. And I think nothing shows how disposable Alma is to them, more than the fact that she's the one who gets left behind when they flee the yellow fever.

Jane: 19:18

Yeah, that was a great example. I totally agree. Yeah, such a fascinating character. All of them are fascinating. I wanna talk about. I know obviously there's been a lot written and produced about Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. And so Kirk has wrote in a review about this novel. Hamilton and Burr are not reduced to caricature, but held up with a loving eye on the pride and transients that would ultimately lead to their legendary downfalls. How did you approach bringing these characters? They're so well drawn in this story. Of course, I was still thinking my head, Lin Manuel Miranda and Leslie o Jr. As what they looked like. But they're so well drawn and and, you leave like little nuggets of what their future holds and their feelings towards one another is so obvious. So how did you. Flesh them out and create them in this story.

Lauren: 20:07

I have to admit, I am probably the only person in the United States and possibly other countries as well, who hasn't seen Hamilton yet, because I knew that this book was something I wanted to write, and I didn't want the real people supplanted in my head or for my vision of them to be, shaped in any way. Lin Manuel Miranda's vision, although we both relied heavily on the OW biography. So from what I've heard, I gather our interpretations are fairly close, and now that this book is out in the world, I can finally go see the musical. But I will say that was one of the scariest, the hardest part of this book was reassembling Alma and learn. Figuring out that the puzzle pieces had to be hunted down. Not even puzzle piece by puzzle piece, but scrap a puzzle piece by puzzle piece. But the scariest part of writing this book was writing in the viewpoint of Hamilton Burr. And so what I did was I spent a lot of time reading their correspondence. Unfortunately, neither of them left any notes from this case. Nothing. Not a I know, right? You think anyone? I kept hoping that I was gonna stumble into and here Hamilton's notes from this case know, and there was an 1872 article in Harper's Baar that claimed to have had a tr notes from the trial in Hamilton's hand, and I hunted this thing down and all it was, or the biv that they shared was a segment of William Coleman's. Transcription of Hope Sand's testimony. It was not Hamilton's notes. I was so disappointed. But we have Hamilton's notes on other cases he worked on, and so I was able to see how he worked as a lawyer and also, what his voice is like and what Burr's voice was like. And I just, I steeped myself in their writings to try to get a sense of how their brains worked and how their voices flowed and. I have to say I am very grateful to them both because they're so clear about exactly. Who they are. They are very, their characters are very consistent. And the Manhattan, Murder works as a beautiful micro history of all of the problems in Hamilton and Burr's relationship. And there are two long stories I could tell you. One involves the Manhattan Company and the other involves a a closing state, an opening statement. Both of them really serve as just a, hamilton Burr's relationship in a nutshell. Which one would you like me to tell?

Jane: 22:36

Oh, which one would I like you to? Oh, I think the the Manhattan one. I was, yeah, go with that one. Okay,

Lauren: 22:45

so the Manhattan Company, so this again, we talk about, Hamilton and by everyone thinks about the fatal jewel and all that. I think what people don't realize and what this particular story I'm about to tell you encapsulates so well is how the two of them, they really, both of them. When the Revolutionary War is over, they come to New York. They join the New York Bar in the same year, just months apart, and they're part of the same social, legal, and political scene. They work together all the time. They're in the courtroom together a lot. Some they're political rivals, but they're also occasionally political. Political allies is putting it too strong, but they work together across the aisle and not long before this case happens. Burr comes to Hamilton with this idea he's had for a water company because Yellow Feed fur is the scourge of New York and Burr's brother-in-law, Dr. Thomas Brown has had this idea that if you could bring clean water from upstate into the city. Maybe that will end yellow fever. Of course he's totally wrong, but, points for trying. Hamilton thinks this is an awesome idea and he's so excited by it that he drafts the legislation for bur he lobbies the members of the legislature for Bur, and he even puts his own brother-in-law on the board of directors. And then right before this goes to vote. First slips in an extra clause, and it's a clause enabling the Manhattan Company to use surplus funds to loan out money and raise credit. Basically, it's not a water company. It's a bank, and it's a bank that's been deliberately designed to rival Hamilton's Bank of New York and to serve as a picky bank for both Burr and Burr's Republican Party and Burr. Has made his great rival Hamilton set this up for him. Hamilton, of course, is apoplectic with rage once he finds out, but he's done his work too. The bill passes and actually the one of the few people who speaks out and refuses to vote for it is the guy who's the judge in the Levi Weeks trial. Judge Lansing, who spots this sneaky little clause is actually no. It passes. And Hamilton is so furious and he feels so betrayed by Burr, as you would. But you watch this cycle happening over and over with Hamilton Burr is, Burr will flatter, Hamilton a little, and Hamilton gets all excited. He's like a big golden retriever. And he will, he, yes, he wants to catch that ball. And then Burr will, toss him. A grenade. Instead, it will explode in his mouth and he'll be upset and whimper and complain to everyone, and then it happens all over again. And I feel like in this you can really see the seeds of how it brings about both of their downfalls. Eventually. It's a tragedy of character.

Jane: 25:38

The seeds and the push pull. And I read the about the Manhattan Bank essentially that he, and how devious that was. And I'm like of course, I'm sure this is true. And it's so bizarre and stranger than fiction. And yeah I think that every, there's so many little details even in there discussions and the way that they treat each other, that you're like, you can just see that what's, what they're building toward, what ultimately happens a few years later. Yeah just so well done and so fascinating. I wanna ask this story you have written many novels. This story has all the elements of a great Hollywood movie. I think you called it law and Order 1800, or you publish your did, which I'm like, oh yeah, because you go from scene to scene. And it's like different people's perspectives and another little hint of an, of a clue or a piece of the puzzle. So is there any Hollywood interest yet? I.

Lauren: 26:29

Yes, but it has, goodness only knows if any of it will ever come to anything. Because, I've had books have been under option for 15 years. Yeah. And every now and then you think they're dead. And then you get a phone call being like, put the champagne on the ice, and then they die again. So my feeling is it's I could say it's like pregnancy. You're not supposed to ask a woman if she's pregnant until you. TV deals, it's similar because they're just they're,

Jane: 26:54

they're capricious. Yes. So many people are comment, so many lovely comments here, but a lot of people are saying it would be a great movie. And I totally, as I was reading it, it felt very cinematic to me. Yeah, all the different scenes and the different characters. I wanna ask some writing related questions and then I will take some questions from the audience. You've written many novels. What is your writing process like and has it evolved over the course of your career?

Lauren: 27:19

Sadly, no, it hasn't evolved. So my writing process, it is the most dysfunctional thing ever. And. Basically the way it works is I spend about six months dithering over the first six chapters. I write them, I rewrite them. I decide that this book is totally the wrong book. I should be writing a different book and that the next book, clearly, if I write a different book, it will be so easy. It will write itself in a week. Then I go try to write a different book and give up after two paragraphs and go back to this book. And what eventually happens is, so I eventually write my way into. The characters. And then I write the n And by this point, of course my deadline is looming and so I will write the rest of the book, like three quarters of the book in a mad six week caffeine fueled fever dream. But so my husband is a numbers guy and we started dating when I was working on, oh my gosh, which book was it? I think my eighth book. And he did a chart for me.'cause charts are what. These finance numbers guys. Yeah. And on one side was days until deadline, and the other was pages written and the chart looked like this. And he was not wrong. And the funny thing is I really had thought that this was purely because when I wrote my first few books, I was a grad student and a law student, and then very briefly a litigator at a large New York law firm. So by necessity, I had to write in fits and starts. Because I was writing around other things. Although I will say when I was at three L in law school, I figured out I could cluster all my classes on Tuesday to Thursday. So I could have Friday to Monday as a four day writing weekend. I was always having to, or there'd be exams or something, and so the manuscript would have to be set aside for long periods of time, and I would go right really fast to make up for it. And so when I left the law to write full-time way back in 2008, I was like, okay, this is it deeper. Okay? Now I will be one of those writers who works steadily from nine to two every day, and I am gonna write X number of pages every day, and my life will be orderly and calm, and there will be no caffeine fuel deadline rushes. And this. I did not happen, and I think what underlies it for me is I'm very character and voice driven. And so until I get a sense of who my characters really are and what their voices are, I can't move forward and I can't figure those out until I've written and rewritten my way into them.

Jane: 30:00

Yeah. That's so interesting. Do you think too, like just having a deadline looming helps like fuels your fire sometimes when like you get close up, when you get up against that deadline and you know that you have no choice but to deliver something, sometimes I feel like there's something to that just makes me power through and not. Have that little voice of doubt on my shoulder, as I'm doing. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Because

Lauren: 30:21

that's when you remember it's better done than good. Exactly. And that breach of contract is not a pleasant thing.

Jane: 30:28

No, exactly. Exactly that. What's the best writing advice you'd ever received, ever?

Lauren: 30:34

Honestly, it's probably Nora Roberts' butt in chair where, you can't a, a. Any page is better than a blank one and you can't write anything unless you're actually at the computer.

Jane: 30:47

Yes. Good one. Was there a particular novel you read growing up or novels that made you want to write fiction someday? Oh my goodness.

Lauren: 30:56

So when I was first. Sorry, not first years old. My brain's going when I was six years old in first grade. Someone made the mistake of giving me Eel, Koenigsberg a proud taste for Scarlet and Miner, which for those who haven't read it, have you read Jane? I have read it. Okay, so it's less well known than her mixed up files of Mrs. Basely Franker. This is her biography of Eleanor, of Aquita, but it's told by all of Eleanor's buddies as they're sitting around on a. Allowed in heaven waiting to see if there have finally been enough lawyers admitted to heaven to argue the case of Henry II and why he should be allowed up. The premise wild is crazy and ridiculous and so much fun. And so it's all of these people from Eleanor's life being snarky about her while she's Hey, that wasn't exactly how it happened. Fell in love, both with the snark and the history. And I just, I wanted to be Eleanor of Aquita or if I couldn't be her to write more about her. And so I went and announced my whole first grade class that I was gonna be a writer when I grew up. And that was that. It was all downhill. That

Jane: 32:06

was amazing. Oh. Lynch Schnitzer says, I love a proud taste for Scarlet and Maneuver, and now I need to read it. Oh, yes, you do. I read in another interview that you did about what you're working on next, and it's a total departure from what you've, but definitely a departure from this one.

Lauren: 32:24

I know this is like that Monty Python line and now for something completely different, the funny thing was it wasn't going to be something completely different. I was actually all geared up to write about another 18th century trial featuring famous founding fathers, and I have a vast pile of research books about that. I'd start work on that. But I was having lunch one day with my agent and I mentioned this throwaway idea I had that I thought she would never let me write about a paranormal contemporary romance set in Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn. And she's I. Drop everything. Write that one. I was like, who are you? Like what have you done to my agent? Because for years I had been saying, can I write a romcom? And she would say no. You are a historical fiction author. We're let's not muddy your brand. And now she's no, drop everything. I was like, but wait, I'm under contract for the other book. And she's don't worry, I'll call your editor. And my editor also said, drop everything and write that one. Amazing. So the next book is called What Happens At Nightfall? It comes out in September, 2026, and it's about a young woman who has hereditary powers she does not know about who has to team up with the hot widower arborist of Greenwood Cemetery to fight a malicious renaissance demon that has accidentally been unleashed from a gilded age crypt.

Jane: 33:48

Amazing. I read that that is amazing. What did, like you must have had so much fun just to do something entirely different. Did, oh, so much fun. It was

Lauren: 33:56

such, it was such a palate cleanser to write. I do. My early books, my pink Kian books all had a modern frame and I loved writing that Contemporary banter and so it was so much fun to get to go back to that.

Jane: 34:10

Especially, and I imagine this is such a, it's such a terrific book, but it's really research dense, so it must be, it must've been nice to like, take a break from the super heavy, especially when you have everyone in the book is a character in history pretty much, like you were saying you couldn't deviate from the facts. So that's, I can't wait to read it. That's amazing. Thank you. So exciting. What, how can, before I take a few questions from the audience, how can readers best stay in touch with you? What's the best way?

Lauren: 34:36

So you can visit me on my website, www.laurenwillig.com. And I also hang around a lot on Instagram and at Lauren Willig and on my Facebook author page, which is also Lauren Willig. Technically I think I have Threads and Twitter accounts, but I am never there. Like every nine months or so I'll be like. Oh, people sent me messages on these things, but now I don't know how to respond to them. So don't come try to communicate with me on those, Instagram, Facebook, and my website.

Jane: 35:07

Excellent. One question that came up that I wanted to make sure you clarified, Sherry Steuben asked, does anyone know where the actual where Elma was found is? Do you know?

Lauren: 35:17

They thought they, they might have found it in the 1950s, somewhere under Green Street. So according to this urban historian, I spoke to you and if anyone's curious, his handle is at Keith York City on Instagram, and he has a bit about the Manhattan Well. Where it is versus where it's not. Somewhere in one of his past Instagram posts also, oh, his book Walking New York just came out and there is a whole little demi chapter about the Manhattan. And the legend and he recounts the story, the Manhattan Well, murder and all that. But he also talks about how that's not actually the well and where the real well might be, but the short version is probably somewhere under Green Street.

Jane: 36:00

Okay. Interesting. Courtney Rogers is a big fan. She got this book for her birthday, so I wanna ask at least one of her questions. Lauren, I love your books. I was wondering if you were collaborating collaborating on another book with Beatriz and Karen, and are you planning on doing a book tour for Girl from Granite Street?

Lauren: 36:19

Thank you so much Courtney, and happy birthday, and I love your family's choice of presents or your friend choice of presents. Yes, Karen and Beatrice and I have plotted out our next book, but no, I can't tell you anything about it because then they might have to kill me because we haven't officially announced anything yet. But at some point we will tell. I can tell you it's not in the same vein as author's Guide to Murder. Our last one. This one is much more in the style of lost summers of Newport. It's back to three generations historical, based around a specific city, that kind of thing. So that's why I can tell you I'm gonna stop talking before I reveal too much. I am touring a bit for Girl from GR Street right now, so if you look on the events page of my website, you can see where I'm going through the end of next October, and I am adding in new events as they come up. So stay tuned.

Jane: 37:14

Excellent. The awesome Christine, OSHA asks, were there any historical events or figures that you discovered during your research that surprised you?

Lauren: 37:24

Oh, that is an interesting question. I. There is, it's definitely a case of truth being stranger than fiction. One of the things that surprised me, but probably shouldn't have, was just how interwoven this tiny New York world was at the time that even Elias ring the husband of the Quaker boarding house bus.'cause he bring house owner, he's technically the owner. His wife is the one who really makes it work though. But he sits on a waterboard. With, what we call it, burr's brother-in-law. So I was amazed by how small this world was. The story though, that really surprised me, but that's out of the scope of this book, is about Judge Lansing, the one I mentioned, who spoke out against the water, the Manhattan Company and whatnot. So at the end of the trial, Catherine Ring, Alma's cousin is furious. That. Oh gosh, this is a spoiler. It's his, you, any of you guys could Google this and find out, but she's furious that Levi has been acquitted. Whether or not he's innocent is another matter entirely, but he is acquitted and Catherine feels that this is just wrong. And so legend has it. And this is legend repeated by a lot of people that she curses all of the lawyers involved in the case, including Judge Lansing. This is called the Quakers Curse. Judge Lansing is the story of another unsolved New York true crime because years later he goes to meet a friend for tea at a hotel and never shows up. And to this day, no one knows what happened to him. Here he is, he's a, a, a. Prosperous, late middle-aged man. I'm trying to remember how old he was at the time. But anyway, and he just walks off the face of the earth and periodically, of course, true crime buffs. Pick this one back up and try to figure out what happened to Judge Lansing. And so of course this is also taken as an instance of the Quakers curse. Of course, it's also, the story is also supposed to be that the Quaker's curse is what's responsible for the fatal dual, where Hamilton is killed and Burr's life is ruined. But I feel like the problem that no one talks about is Brock Holt. Livingston goes on to live a long, happy life and becomes a Supreme Court justice. So I don't know why the curse doesn't hit him.

Jane: 39:49

Yeah, I, and I loved you do an epilogue at the end of the book about like where were they after, what happened to all of these different characters in history after the trial, which was so interesting to me. And you're right he escaped the curse on like Bo Byrne Hamilton. Last question, Christine Mott, who's so amazing and shows up every time for the happy hours does your husband read your books?

Lauren: 40:12

Yes, he does actually. Usually he says helpful things like there needed to be more ninjas. I know, but this one actually, he told me is his favorite of my books so far. Which in some ways I think, I guess makes sense because it's in many ways a more serious book than my other books. So interesting. Yes, he does. And he's been reading them since the days we started, since the days we started dating. So we still actually have on our bookshelf a little, sorry, personal details here, but so my husband, I had known from college, but we'd never dated. And in my early thirties I was doing a book event and he came with some other college friends to my book talk, and that's how we started dating. And so we still have the copy of the book with my, inscription to him. That he bought at that book signing at the Old Borders on 57th Street. So yes, that started my judicial, my husband reading my books. I love it. Definitely. I think the book talk was for my sixth book, so he had to go back and catch up, but he Oh, that's amazing.

Jane: 41:20

Lauren, this was delightful. I was so excited to talk to you. It's always nice to talk to a writer friend. I was like, sometimes I get nervous when it's a new author I've never met before, but at the night I was like, oh, I'm so psyched to talk to Lauren again. So this was so I know, and I always forget,

Lauren: 41:32

Are we on camera? Are we off camera? Are we just chatting?

Jane: 41:36

That's right. That's right. So thank you again. Thank you everyone for coming tonight. This Thursday night, I have Sarah Pena on discussing her latest the Amalfi Curse and you can register@janehealy.com. Also, a reminder that my next novel, the Woman of Arlington Hall, is available for pre-order and out on August 1st. Thank you so much, Lauren. Thank you everyone. Have a great night. Take care. Thank you. Thank you, Jane, and thank you everyone. Goodnight. All. Goodnight.