L.A. Women by Ella Berman

In this episode of Historical Happy Hour, bestselling author Jane Healey chats with Ella Berman about her riveting new novel LA Women, set in 1960s and 70s Hollywood. The book explores the complex friendship—and eventual betrayal—between two ambitious female writers navigating a male-dominated literary and artistic world. Berman reveals how her own upbringing in LA and London, her research in Laurel Canyon, and a real-life family friend who lived through the era shaped the story’s vivid setting and emotional core. The conversation dives deep into the novel's dual timelines, its themes of artistic integrity, feminism, and creative freedom, as well as the bittersweet challenges of writing under deadline while raising a child. Both authors reflect on the joys and pressures of modern authorship in a social-media-driven world.

Transcript

Jane: 0:02

Welcome to Historical Happy Hour, the podcast that explores new and exciting historical fiction novels. I'm your host Jane Healey, and in today's episode, I welcome author Ella Berman to discuss her latest novel LA Women, which has been called a truly exceptional novel about the vagaries of female friendship and creative ambition. It releases August 5th in the us. Welcome Ella. Thanks for coming on.

Ella: 0:28

Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of your podcast.

Jane: 0:31

Oh, thank you. I'm gonna do a quick bio and then I have a ton of questions for you, and we'll just jump right in. Sounds good. All right. Ella Berman grew up in both Los Angeles and London, where she studied psychology before working at Sony Music. Her debut novel, the Comeback, was selected as a read with Jenna book Club Pick and her follow up. Before we, before we were innocent. Was a Reese's Book Club pick amazing, raised by two former hippies on the music and art of the 1960s and seventies. She lives in London with her husband, their senior dog, and their daughter Again, welcome. Thanks for doing this again. Thank you for having me. So talk about. La Woman is your third novel. Mm-hmm. Trying to get it up so can see, and um, and just, you have such a beautiful writing style. Talk about the premise of this novel and how you came to write it.

Ella: 1:24

Okay. Yes. LA Women is about the friendship and rivalry between two writers in the sixties and seventies in Hollywood and its Jewel timeline with the, uh, the past timeline starting in 1965 and following the two women Lane and Gala as they juggle their ambition and talent with the relationships. And, um, time. Sorry, not time. The relationships of the and the, oh my gosh, my brain. Sorry. No worries. No, no. Can I start? I'll start from the top. Totally. Yeah. Start from the top. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Mm-hmm. So, LA Women? Yeah. It's about the friendship and rivalry between two women writers in the sixties and seventies in Hollywood. And it's, it's told in two timeline strands. Uh, the first of which is set in, starts in 1965. And we follow these two women as they navigate their. Lives with being, you know. Very talented and ambitious at a time when there was still a lot of social constraints and they're juggling their careers with the relationships in their lives. And then in 1975, we find Lane who is. Unraveling the history of their friendship alone because gala is missing and we learn that Lane has committed the ultimate act of artistic betrayal in writing a book about gala. So yes, so we meet her there and watch as she tries to unpick the past and the role she could have played in gala's disappearance.

Jane: 3:11

Fascinating. I, I Now you said, um, you, you were raised by two former hippies and you've lived in LA and London. Did that, did your upbringing influence your decision to write a book about this, this era, the sixties and seventies in Los Angeles?

Ella: 3:25

Yes, I think so. Definitely. So I lived in, in Los Angeles when I was very small, so I was a few months old to I think three or four. And. I think obviously it's a very formative time in someone's life. Um, we used to come back for every vacation after that, so I'd spend around three months of the year there. And I think in a way it sort of became the, the one that got away in terms of place and like, uh, you know, another life, which is I think why I've set. Most, you know, three of my novels there. Um, in terms of this particular milieu, yeah. So my parents were former hippies. I was raised on the music of the time. I just feel like. It was such an amazing moment of creativity and community that it's hard kind of to avoid the, um, impact it's had, if that makes sense. So it's just something that I've always been fascinated by and always been a fan of, and I've always known that I wanted to write a story set there, um, set within that, you know, setting and time period. But I just, it was just a, a question of finding the right story. I think I, yeah, I started researching you know, Laurel Canyon in particular in 2000, I think it was 2018. And, um, since then I've just been sort of lying in, wait for the little spark of something extra to come to me to um, yeah, to to kind of hang, hang the story on, if that makes sense. But, um, yeah, it's just such a, a kind of rich and vibrant setting in terms of, of, um. I dunno like, yeah. Creative output. Also the landscape. And I think the thing with Los Angeles is that it's so good at like preserving its history, if that makes sense. So you could so many of the same restaurants and bars and venues and, and, uh, they're, they're almost untouched. So you can go and have a, you know, similar experience as if you were in the. In the sixties, even the fifties in some places. So I think that has just been, you know, in terms of research and also I grew up going to a lot of those restaurants as well. So I think they were just sort of ingrained in me. Yeah, so it was just a question of waiting for the right spark to come along, which, which eventually did in the form of my family friend. So my dad had a, had a friend called Pat who was, I think she was nearing her nineties. Uh, she sadly passed away at the end of 2023. And, uh, she'd lived in Hollywood since the late fifties, so nearly, nearly a Los Angeles native. And she just had so many stories, not just about the like specific, you know, like parties and, and bands and, restaurants, but about the like political landscape that just gave it that extra, thing that I needed, that extra Yeah. Depth that I needed to, to start this story, if that makes sense. And then I read a quote from alleged quote from Carol King to Joni Mitchell. She said,'cause they, uh, she said to her. You don't like yourself? I can tell I like myself and that that was the difference between the two of them. And I just found that just so fascinating. Um, first of all, that, you know, anyone can so boldly like themselves, but also that it was still just a real time of such scarcity, like for women in particular, and. I just wondered what that would do to like two women who were so different starting from such different places, and something as basic as that and how that would impact their careers and their relationships and just the choices they made from there. And yeah, so starting from there was just. It was like the Jewel Sparks and then I could use Pat as kind of a resource for research and you know, just run a lot of things by her. And her memory was just, I mean, insane. And we'd just drive down to Sunset Boulevard and eat in one of the restaurants that used to be something else and she'd, um, yeah. Just tell me the most incredible stories and just give me kind of specific details as well that meant. That I could I just felt like I had both the emotional entry point and also. I could really nail the sense of place, which I hope I've done it justice, but, um, yeah, so it's a long way of saying it was a three, it was a three pronged attack in terms of coming up with this one.

Jane: 8:07

No, absolutely. And I loved reading about sixties and seventies LA because it's, it's not a historical era. Era I've read a lot about, um, I want, and I love that quote by the way too, because it, and it's kind of mm-hmm. Encapsulates the relationship between Lane and Gala right. As well. I wanna talk about the development of these two characters. They were kind of re frenemies before. That was a term I was thinking when I was reading it. And were they partly inspired by Joan Didion and Eve Babbit? Is that. Would you say I, I was reading because I, you know, I was reading about you writing the book and some of your reviews and things, and I, so of course I went down a rabbit hole with those two, so, so talk about like character development. This is such a character, you know, that's such strong characters in these story. How did you develop these two?

Ella: 8:55

Yeah, I think so. I think partly why. The sort of friendship between Joan Didion and Eve Babbitt is so compelling is because, again, they're starting from these places of, or they seem to be starting from these places of, of, you know, complete opposites. And I definitely wanted to capture that within the book. I am a huge fan of both of them. I think, like most people I, I could read. Steve Babbit is writing on LA every day of my life. I think is just so, funny and fun and well observed. And yeah, I just, I think that she's just someone that really captured the spirit of the time. And, um, I also, it's rare to read a writer and not, not denouncing California as being, you know, as she calls it. As other people call it a wasteland. So I think there's just something really wonderful about that. I tried not to, once I'd come up with the characters, I tried not to do any further research into either of them or their friendship. Because I didn't want to be tied to their lives and their friendship and their history. And I think I would've really felt the pressure of that. I mean, these are two of the, greatest writers as well of our, I'd be setting quite the trap for myself. Uh, so, um, yeah, so I think I definitely. I'm inspired by them. I'm inspired by, you know, other women writers of the time and artists, you know, Joni Mitchell. Mm-hmm. Um, I think was a real source of inspiration. Especially her attitude towards, um, what she called pair bonding, I think, which is settling down and the impact that would've had on her. Creativity. And I think that is probably where I found most of my inspiration in her songs like Cactus Tree, in which she talks about the various men have fallen in love with her and, and that, that she knows that to settle down with them would to, would be to compromise her. Freedom and her, her. Creativity And she, for her, the two are intrinsically linked. And I think, and also she talks about safeguarding the dreams and opportunities she's been given.'cause in, you know, before 1965 it was. It was really rare for a woman to be given the opportunity to kind of pursue their dream of creativity and not to kind of settle down into a life of domesticity. And I just thought that was, and I think she said that both her grandmothers were kind of frustrated artists, um, musicians. So I think that idea of, domesticity being the. Creativity being the cost of domesticity was really interesting to me. And it was kind of, so something Pat told me when we first met was how the, as much as it's like celebrated as this time of free love and sexual liberation and, you know, the contraceptive pill was available to women opening up, these new types of relationships, it. Still the conservatism of the fifties cast a very long shadow. And I think that must have felt very disorienting for women at the time to be told, oh no, you can have it all now. Like you can do everything, you can do whatever you want, but still to be feeling the weight of the past on them and like the expectations and, and constraints of the, of a lot of the people around them. And I think it's something that Joni Mitchell has. Talked about is that a lot of the men. Said they wanted, you know, a free-spirited woman and, an ambitious and creative partner. But when it came down to it, once they were married, they actually, you know, wanted that, that person to look after them. And that does come, it does have an impact on your creative output and creativity. And, um, I really wanted to explore that.'cause I feel like that's often a narrative that's missed in stories about the sixties and seventies where it feels like it's this amazing time of like, um, yeah. Um, free spiritedness and, and kind of. Hedonism. And yeah, it came at the same time that I was trying to work out whether I wanted to have a child or to have children. So I think I also had questions about the impact that might have on my creative output and my creativity. And so I kind of was I guess exploring a few of those questions through the characters as well, which, was so interesting.

Jane: 13:57

So interesting. And you're absolutely right'cause my mom is of that generation. It's it was like, yes, a lot was improving, but certainly that we had, they had a long way to go as well, so. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So you talked about Pat, I think that's amazing. You have this like primary source that you could go to and in person and interview and take to restaurants. So what, so she must, she would, sounds like she was a major resource. For research. What was, what is, talk about your research process for this. Um, were, were there other sources? Did anything surprise you? Talk about that.

Ella: 14:34

I think because the eras so well documented, it was quite like I could listen to the music. I could watch movies from the time I could watch a ton of documentaries. I could read and listen to books about. Laurel Canyon, they're mostly about the men, but you know, there are a few women thrown in there for good measure. I could, yeah, you know, read about, read Joni biographies of Joni Mitchell. I could read words and interviews. I was in LA a lot researching. I just walk around the streets. You can still see so many things, you know, like eat at Muso and Frank, eat at Dan Turner's, go to the Troubadour. Like all these places that I knew would be. In the book I could just go and, you know, almost experience them as they were, they're, they're basically untouched. Um, I, I did a lot of walking around. Yeah, Hollywood, the Hollywood Hills the roads off Laurel Canyon, absolutely perilous on foot, but yeah, a lot of the houses are just unchanged. Yeah, I looked into, like the architecture of the time. I went to visit a lot of the mid-century homes that I already knew and loved and, um. I just think, yeah, it's like kind of a perfect time capsule of this time which is, yeah, incredible to be able to do that. I'm trying to think what else. I guess Pat was my first person source I'd email her questions and she'd come back straight away with just, I mean, honestly, reams of, of just honestly like, blew me away. Like, um, memories. What else did I do? Yeah, I think that's, that's mostly. Just a lot of, of listening to music. Yeah. Asking my parents for anything they could remember. My mom had these sixties magazines, what are they called? Nova, I wanna say, I can't remember what they're called, but with all the like, fashion of the time. Um, so I was like, yeah. Had those all around as I was writing and yeah, I think it's just such a. I just really wanted to capture the, like spirit of the time. And I think because so much of the creativity is still unlike the songs and music and art is still celebrated today. It was, it was actually like not hard to do that.

Jane: 16:52

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean I feel like the sixties especially has like musically, creatively has such an impact on that. Like my daughters listens to, you know, to the Beatles and to Joni Mitchell and you, now I have to go listen to Cactus Street'cause I don't remember that song and I'm like, oh, I gotta go back on Spotify. Yeah. But yeah, it still echoes so much. And so I wanna talk about structure'cause I'm always interested in how authors choose structure. Like you said, this is a dual timeline. Um, now being 1975, then being 1965, um, was, did, was this how you plan to structure the story from the start?

Ella: 17:33

Yes. Yeah, I knew I wanted to, I had the opening chapter where, where Lane learns that gala is missing at one of the parties she's been throwing for years and has grown slightly jaded by. I knew that I wanted to open with that and that we'd then. Go back and kind of to the start of their friendship and lane's kind of life in Los Angeles. I did say after my second book that I would not be writing a true timeline ever again, but somehow ended up doing it. It's clearly my, my favorite format. I think this time what I did differently was around halfway through. I just wrote, which I'm sure a lot of people do. What's the word by, you know, naturally I just, I wrote the past storyline in one go, and then the present storyline in one Go, and then. Made them work. Whereas before, I had literally been writing them as they appear in the book. And I think the past, sorry, the present storylines in the 1975 was, I think you could feel that it was that I was kind of rushing through it to get to the past. I, yeah. If that makes sense. And I was feeling, I was feeling a little bit. So instead I tried to make that. Like an exciting and kind of eventful storyline in its own right. Mm-hmm. So if that had been like a novella, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that hopefully has made it you know, a little more compelling. But yeah, I definitely did. I had the fear that people would, readers would prefer. The past to the, to the present, which is, yeah, 1975. Um, but yeah, I hope, I, I hope I dealt with that.

Jane: 19:21

Oh, absolutely. I wanna talk about the the idea of artistic betrayal and how LA Lane writes a novel based on GA's life. What drew you to this theme? One book that is very different than yours, but touches on this too, is Yellow Face. Mm-hmm. That's present day story about an author who steals from, basically steals from another author. So a little bit, a little bit different, but how do you feel like what drew you to this theme and because I think it's so interesting and how do you feel about writers drawing from real life in their work?

Ella: 19:56

Yeah, I loved Yellow Face first of all. I do, you know what? I still don't know where I stand on this. It's so complicated. I try to, I think I'm overly respectful of the people around me. I think possibly I'd be a better writer if I wasn't, because what's that saying about. Great writer, steel, good writers, Bora, great writer, steel. I, yeah I think, I do think it's important to be able to tell your own story. Um, I think that it is the, possibly the worst thing you could do to another writer in particular is, um, to take their life, especially something that they aren't willing to write about. And to write about it yourself, which is what happens in the novel when Lane takes Carla's story and yeah, writes about parts of it that, again, like me, Garla wouldn't feel comfortable writing about. And I do think, yeah, there's a, there's a, I don't know, there's an interesting question there that I do. I am constantly. Thinking about, and also in terms of, um, how much of, uh, another question that they're really battling with is how much of yourself to put into stories and your work. And, you know, even now promoting this book, I get asked about personal essays and to write this, and I'm constantly weighing up how much of myself and my own life I need to put into. To work against the book being the product itself or like the output itself and standing alone and yeah. So these are all questions I have no answer to, but something that I definitely yet explore in the book and that both the women are juggling as well and navigating.

Jane: 21:53

That's a really good point about, about authors now, because I think it's like. You know, I'm, I'm about to put a book out into the world again too, and it's this whole thing now where it's like, but you know, years ago people couldn't connect with authors on social media or reach out to them, and you didn't have to share yourself and your life and your, your, now it's like the author is also part of the product and the brand, right? Yeah. And that is, that's a struggle I have too. Like whether it's personal essays or how much to share on social media. Yeah, it's, I think it's a balance. Balancing act that authors, creators didn't have to deal with 20 years ago, 30 years ago. You know, it's interesting.

Ella: 22:34

Yeah, I agree. We're, yeah, it's generally not in our nature, I'd say. Yeah. It's becoming Yeah. Fiction writers, but, um, but yeah, it's, I mean, it's really interesting and it is just like a very real thing that, that we do have to navigate. And I guess it's the, um, yeah, the flip side term such a. A wonderful and lovely other side of the job, which is the writing. Absolutely.

Jane: 23:01

Yeah, and it's, don't get me wrong, I love connecting with readers and that's one of the best parts of it, but it's also like. Like you said, like I I'm an introverted heart. Yeah, you probably are too. And so that part of it sometimes is, is challenging. It just is. Yeah. You know? So. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. I have a few questions about writing that I ask all authors that come on here. This is your third novel. What is your process? I always ask, are you a plotter? Do you plot, do you write by the seat of your pants? And has it evolved since your first novel?

Ella: 23:35

Yes. So I am by nature, not a plotter in the slightest. One thing I've learned over the three novels, and now I'm writing my fourth, is that. I possibly could do with plotting a little more. But basically in the past, I've always let the, the characters kind of lead the way and the story unravels after that. Um, which I do think is, you know, possibly the. The way I need to work. Um, obviously under contract you have to submit some sort of synopsis or something for your editor. So I've often had to kind of reverse engineer them, um, after writing a few thousand words just to find out who the characters are and what the story's gonna be. So I do find it really hard to go in cold with a plot when I don't know anything about the characters and their kind of history and backstory. However, having had. A baby and with a toddler. I am writing in a different way, so I'm no longer writing able to write like, by myself for 12 hours a day and squirrel myself away, or go on a retreat, you know, like hide at, when I say retreat, I mean like hide in a room and in a cabin and, and not talk to anyone for, for a week. So I'm got a lot more distance from. The book, so partly LA Women. So maybe the last final few edits, but the My Work in progress as well and I've realized that having that space is actually really beneficial in terms of solving like plot issues, pacing issues in particular and just not being able to write. I think I worked too quickly before and let everything just come out without using the part of my brain that is the plotting part, if that makes sense. And I'd be like, I'll just fix it in the edit. Whereas now, not being able to just, you know, write thousands and thousands of words every day and finish a book in, in a few months I'm able to see the book in a more distant way that actually helps in terms of structure and plot so I can. Accidentally see into the future of it, which I never used to be able to when I was in it so much. Does that make sense?

Jane: 25:57

That makes total sense. Yeah, exactly. No, I, I, I get that completely. Um, what advice would you give to aspiring authors about writing and about getting published? Those are two different things, two different

Ella: 26:12

questions.

Jane: 26:12

Yeah.

Ella: 26:13

Okay. So writing, I think it would be, you know, kind of. Against what I just said, to always lead with the character. So even if you have a, a setting an era, a theory in mind, just constantly ask yourself what, which, who is the person that would be most impacted by this? Or who is the person whose story we haven't heard, who would be impacted by this? Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that is. Kind of the way to kind of give that emotional depth to a story and also, or the plot to come organically from that, if that makes sense. So yeah, lead with character. And then my publishing advice I would say is. Two. Yeah. I guess to learn to see rejection as a value, as a something that is going to help you and like something that's gonna spur you on, possibly give you something constructive to hold onto, but it's something that's ultimately gonna make you stronger.'cause you do get. A lot of rejection throughout the process. And then also that comparison is the thief of joy.'cause it truly is. And that there's always someone doing something else and yeah. And something, something better. And however good you are successful you are, you could always be more successful or better, and you will never be happy that way. So you've gotta find the. The, um, the internal validation, which I'm still hunting for, but I think it's there somewhere. I'm aware of what, I'm aware of the journey now.

Jane: 28:08

Aren't we all hunting for that? No. And that is such a good, I compare, I, I say that to myself all the time, like comparison to the thi of joy and also about the rejection. I was just thinking like authors have on here, haven't talked about that enough. I think like ultimately it's. Every author has dealt with some level of rejection. It doesn't matter. Even, you know, the JK Rawlings of the world have de dealt with rejection, and it does. You have to develop that. Thicker skin at some point and, and understand that this is, it makes you stronger as a writer and as a creator and, and a professional too because that's part of the deal too. Like you're sometimes your writer, your editors are gonna throw up on something, you know, some aspect of what you wrote and, and you have to be like, okay, this is gonna make it better. This is fine, you know? Yeah,

Ella: 28:55

exactly. Yeah, exactly. And it makes you realize how much you want it as well.'cause you'd think. I thought I, so I wrote a, a first novel that never, it didn't get an agent, and I thought, I will, obviously I will never do this again. This is insane. I've just spent, you know, a year doing this and then. Two weeks later, I was like, oh, I've just had another idea. And I just couldn't believe like the resilience you have to have to do it. It's an amazing lesson and yeah, very, you know, it's character building, so

Jane: 29:24

it is, it's character building. I think too, like I, so I had, I have a second novel that will never see the light of deck. You know, my first one I went back to though, and I finally like, I finally got a publisher for that one. But yeah, everyone I think has. At least a half a manuscript, full manuscript in their drawer. A few ghost, a few ghost manuscripts. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So w when you are on deadline for a novel and you have kids, what is your writing routine like? And do you have like a certain place you go or certain hours now or like, what's your process in that way? It

Ella: 29:58

is honestly just every second I get now and I can't be, I can't be precious anymore. I used to need, you know, to be in a certain place I needed like. Certain level of daylight, like whatever it was. Whereas now I'm like, alright, I just have to start. So as soon as I sit down, I open my laptop and I just start, which I never, which you know, would not be me before. I'd be procrastinating around the house or I'd do a little tweak or for the, what I did the day before. Whereas now it's like, get into it. I do sometimes if I'm, if I am, you know, not feeling in the mood. I will ease myself in by editing a few pages from the day before, and then I get back into the kind of flow of it. But yeah, it's, um, it's just sort of, I'm time poor at the moment, so Any, any second? I have, I just have to be writing. Yeah. Sorry, that wasn't.

Jane: 30:56

No, no, I get that. That's totally inspiring. Yeah. No, no, not at all. Because yeah, I, I found, you know, my girls are a little older now, but like, it was always like school hours. Like this is the time I have. They're in school. Yeah. When they get home, it's like all bets are off, so I just gotta like crunch when they're there, you know? And it kind of forced. Me to be more productive on the days I didn't feel like it, you know, where you're like,

Ella: 31:18

yeah, I completely agree. Yeah. It really fo Yeah. Focuses you, I definitely had to, arguably too much time before, yeah. So there you

Jane: 31:26

go. Planning, um, are you ready to share what you're working on next? Yes. So it's that's okay if you're not,

Ella: 31:35

it's a, it's set in London, which I'm very excited about. It's my first book that is Yeah. Set in my hometown and, and you know, where I live. So, I am, and it's a love story in the, yeah. Set in the, um, 24 hours leading up to one of the people getting married.

Jane: 31:59

Oh, I love it. Yeah. And I, um, dual timeline again,

Ella: 32:03

so,

Jane: 32:04

oh, you're doing that again? Good, brave. Um, and how can readers best keep in touch with you?

Ella: 32:14

I think probably on Instagram. Um, okay. My, I do have a substack, but I'm just I wish, I love it when I remember to do it, but I just yeah, I just don't do it enough. Yeah, so I think probably Instagram, I'm like quite active and yeah. Love hearing from, from readers and kind of seeing all the photos. So.

Jane: 32:34

Excellent. So thank you so much. This was delightful. I love talking to you, Ella. Thank you for coming on. Um, I know we're in different time zones and everything, so I appreciate it with your, your kids and deadline and all that. Thank you so much

Ella: 32:47

for having me. This has been so fun.

Jane: 32:49

So fun. Thank you. And congratulations on your latest. Again, it's LA Women and it comes out August 5th. Look at this beautiful cover in the us. You can, I'm trying to do a bunch of episodes as I was telling Ella, um, this month recording, so I can put them out in the next couple months because I am taking off time to launch my own book, um, the Women of Arlington Hall, which comes out on August 1st. That's a wrap on historical happy hour. Thank you again, and best of luck with your beautiful new novel. Thank you. And the same to you.