The Lost Book of Lancelot by John Glynn

Author John Glynn joins Jane Healey to discuss his debut novel, The Lost Book of Lancelot, a queer retelling of Arthurian legend that reimagines the story of Sir Lancelot through a fresh and deeply researched lens. John shares how discovering the little-known relationship between Lancelot and the knight Galehaut inspired the novel, and discusses the challenges of navigating centuries of Arthurian source material. He also explores his creation of the Isle of Women, his approach to reimagining characters like Guinevere, and the themes of prophecy, identity, and agency woven throughout the story. The conversation also touches on John’s writing process, his experience as an editor and author, and his advice for aspiring writers.

Transcript

Jane 0:05

Welcome to the Jane Healey Happy Hour, the podcast that explores new and exciting novels of all genres. I'm your host, bestselling historical fiction author Jane Healey, and in today's episode we welcome author John Glynn to discuss his debut novel, The Lost Book of Lancelot, which Publishers Weekly called, "A fresh, fun take on a classic that will as readily appeal to longtime Camelot fans as those with only passing familiarity with this world." Again, welcome, John. Thanks for coming on.

John 0:34

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

Jane 0:37

Awesome. Okay, so I'm gonna do a quick bio, and then we will jump into all my questions.

John 0:41

Awesome.

Jane 0:42

Uh, all right. John Glynn is the editorial director of Hanover Square Press, an imprint of Harper Collins. His nonfiction debut, Out East: Memoir of a Montauk Summer, was an Indie Next pick, an Oprah the Magazine's Best LGBTQ Book of 2019, and a Cosmopolitan Best Book of 2019, among other accolades. His writing has appeared in People, Oprah Daily, The Millions, and The Daily Beast. He lives in New York City with his partner and his dog, Whitman. Again, welcome.

John 1:12

Thank you. Thank you Well,

Jane 1:13

I have to ask what kind of dog you have.

John 1:16

Oh, he's part Cavalier, part Goldendoodle, so he has three different breeds in him. He's the sweetest boy.

Jane 1:24

Oh,

John 1:24

my gosh. He's such a good pup. Yeah.

Jane 1:25

I have a teacup Goldendoodle, so I'm a big, yeah, a big doodle fan. I'm a big, uh, big dog fan, so I had to ask that before we jump in.

John 1:32

Yeah. Oh, no, I love that.

Jane 1:35

Okay, so The Lost Book of Lancelot is your debut. It's described as a queer retelling of the legend of Sir Lancelot. Talk about this unique premise and how you came up with it.

John 1:48

It... I... Let's go ba- let's go back in time a little- Okay to 2021. Um, I had published my memoir in 2019, and then the pandemic hit, and I had no creative energy whatsoever. And it wasn't until 2021 that, you know, I was starting to, to sort of feel, feel ready to dive back into a, a project. And I had read the Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, which I love that book so much. It's a... That book's a retelling of the Iliad, and it sort of centers this gay love story between Achilles and Patroclus. And it, it was just really eye-opening to me that, like, wow, like, that, that read, that interpretation, you can pull that from the source material, that's sort of always been there. And it got me thinking, like, what other ancient queer stories have always been traveling with us, you know, just sort of lurking in plain sight? And that's when I learned about Lancelot and a fellow knight named Galehaut. And, you know, a lot of scholarly work has been wr- a lot has been written about them from an academic standpoint. If you go really far back to, we're talking, like, 13th century, to this version of Arthurian legend called the Vulgate Cycle, um, it's originally written in Old French, you'll find this amazing queer-coded love story between Lancelot and this fellow knight. And so when I learned about this thread of that lore, it just sort of stuck with me and, and that's kind of the basis of this entire retelling.

Jane 3:34

Fascinating. Yeah, so fascinating, and I have questions related to that and tho- those characters. But let's start with your research because Arthur- Arthurian legend is, like, this enormous layered tradition. Like, there's s- I read your research notes, and I'm like, "This is so much." I, I mean, so talk about your research process for the book and what were your primary sources? Was there anything that surprised you? Like, how did you kind of distill it down into a narrative arc?

John 4:03

Oh my gosh, Jane. It was wi- it was wild. It was a wild ride. I t- I It's a good thing I didn't really know what I was getting myself into at the jump 'cause I would've been I was already really overwhelmed. I'm not an academic, right? I'm not a scholar. I'm not, like, a medievalist. So all of this was essentially new to me, and I real- you know, I, I had sort of a, a passing familiarity and appreciation of Arthurian legend. But I really started with, with the Vulgate Cycle, the 13th century source, and it's, it's like a thousand pages long. It's 10 volumes, and there's one English translation of it. Everything I read is in translation because, I'm not, like, versed in these like ancient languages. I don't want people to think that I, I was coming at this from like a source of expertise. It really was... It started with just a love of this one thread that i- inspired this entire, like, basically like a crash course in- Yeah Arthurian legend, so.

Jane 5:11

Completely.

John 5:12

Yeah, so I started with the Vulgate Cycle, and then I read, you know, I read some Sir Thomas Malory, which is probably the version that if people have read any Arthurian legend, you usually... That's like the one you read in high school, Morte d'Arthur. Mm. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is another that, like, a lot of people probably ha- were assigned to read at some point in life. But then I, I sort of, I looked at the, an Italian version called Tavola Rotonda. I looked at this version by Ulrich and Chretien, who created Lancelot the character as we know him. But it was interesting because, there are certain elements of Lancelot's story that are pretty consistent. He's almost always an orphan. He's almost always raised by this character, the Lady of the Lake.

Jane 6:03

Mm-hmm.

John 6:03

And her name in my version is Viviana, which is, there is a version with that name, and but the la- the lake that he is raised by is usually this sort of in a random forest somewhere in like France But there's this one version where he's raised on an island, the Island of Maidens it's called in the original source, and he's the only boy on this island of women essentially. And I thought that was, like, so evocative, right? Oh, yeah. It was really interesting. And so that became my focal point, that version, um, became my focal point. But one of the nice things that I sort of learned as I dove in was that these stories have been co-opted and changed and altered for, like, so many different reasons by so many different writers over the years. There's not, like, one definitive source. So I kind of felt like I had license to, to play with some of these, play with some of these stories, make them fresh, pull in some of the sources from, from one source or another and kind of like remix them together in a way.

Jane 7:15

Yeah, and that was so... That's so interesting too because we're not talking about, like, real history here, right? We're talking about legend- Right and folklore, which I... gives you some freedom that in, uh, in historical fiction you don't have. So, um-

John 7:26

Right

Jane 7:27

that was so interesting to me. And so talk about the Isle of Women 'cause I... How did you build that world? 'Cause I'm reading this and I'm like, uh, w- first of all, what am- an amazing idea for an origin story for him, and, like, this island and these strong female characters around him. Talk a little bit about that.

John 7:43

Yeah, so you know it's interesting. Like, when we... You were talking a little bit about, like, histo- for you, like, as a historical fiction author, you're looking at time periods, and one of the tricky things about Arthurian legend is that a lot of the sources, you know, are from the 1200s, 13, 1400s. But if King Arthur did exist which, like, early records there, there's a mention of an Arthur- He would've existed probably in the 500 or 600s. So- Yeah you have these sources that are writing about a legendary character, from the past, but they're writing it with no sense of history at all. So the writers in the 1200s are writing King Arthur as a, a contemporary character th- to them, right? Yes. They're imbuing him with their contemporary values and aims, and they're not really creating a historical version of this character. So early on in creating the Isle of Women and creating the entire world, I kind of had to come to terms with the fact that, like, I'm not really gonna be pegging this to a specific, even specific century, you know? Mm-hmm. And the medieval world is drastically different from the 500s to the 1200 or 1300s, right? And I kind of had to just let that go- and create sort of a narrative world that felt like, like recognizably medieval and different and not nec- I, you know, I didn't want it to feel anachronistic, but I also wasn't too concerned with pegging it to a specific time and place. But for the Isle of Women in particular, I mean, it was really, really fun to create that. So Lancelot is... He's raised by this surrogate mother and the Lady of the Lake, and there are seven women who live on this island, and all of them sort of are sort of the locus of power in this entire world, right? And that was something that I really wanted to play with that I drew from the source material, and that women in Arthurian legend sort of fall into two camps it seems. They are the beautiful damsel in distress, or they're, like, the outsider witch. Like, there's- That's very true very little, there's, like, very little in between, and they're often really one-dimensional in these original stories. And at the same time, they also do hold a lot of power-

Jane 10:21

Mm-hmm

John 10:21

um, even within, like, the patriarchal setup of the source material. So in this, this version, I really wanted to make it like this is a, a world in which the women do have the power, and they actually are three-dimensional char- characters. Right.

Jane 10:38

Yeah.

John 10:39

So they're sort of the center and beating heart in a lot of ways of the book.

Jane 10:44

So interesting. And I, yeah, so another aspect, I guess I need to, like, brush up on my Arthurian legend. Uh, like, after reading this I'm like, "I feel like I need to, like, go back down that rabbit hole and take a course." Or at least watch The Sword in the Stone, which I loved. Love it. Like, I know you men- you mention that in your author's note. Um, so I was not aware of the character. Is it ca- pronounced Galehut,

John 11:05

Galehut? You know, you can pronounce it however you want- because I don't know how it's technically pronounced. In my mind it's Galehut, but- Galehut, okay I don't I'm, like, nearly certain I'm wrong. I actually, I have I'm not sure.

Jane 11:18

Okay. So

John 11:19

however you wanna pronounce it is fine by me.

Jane 11:21

Sounds good. Okay, so Galehut and Gawain. Is it Gawain? Those are the two love interests. I had no idea, like, when I was reading the book, at, like, reading your author's notes, I'm like, oh, there actually Like, there's an origin story for these characters as well, which is I, um, I had no idea. So talk about how you, like, brought these other two characters to the forefront o- o- of this novel.

John 11:45

Yeah, so it's fascinating. So in the original... So Galehut is You know, a lot of people have Maybe you've heard of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Like, he's sort of a prominent figure. Maybe you've heard of Galahad, who is Lancelot's son- Yes. Mm-hmm who also is, like, just a name that people know. But Galehut is in the Vulgate Cycle he plays a really prominent role, but in later versions he, his role gets kind of condensed and to the point where he's, he's sort of in the broader in the broader body of work of Arthurian legend, he's just a, a footnote. He's a minor character overall. But in his, i- in the original, in the Vulgate Cycle, Galehut is, he's in love with Lancelot. He sees him across a battlefield, and he's about to lead an army to attack, and he stands everyone down and says, "Give me a night with Lancelot and I will tell my army to stand down." And that to me was fascinating when I read that. Yeah. It was like, what about... what is it about that character? Like, there's so much depth there. And when- Lancelot dies he's actually buried n- this is not a spoiler for my book, this is from the original

Jane 13:06

Mm-hmm

John 13:06

um, when he dies, he's buried next to Galehaut. And so the, all of the, these sort of elements of the story were there and- Mm-hmm and I kind of, I build off of those.

Jane 13:19

Yeah. It's so well done and so interesting. Um, so when I was researching for our talk I read this sentiment and I thought this was... I thought it was so well said. Several ear- early readers have picked up on how the novel interrogates prophecy, whether it's a guide or a cage, and who gets to s- write the story of a life. And, uh, was this a theme that, like, evolved as you were writing it, or was that something you were thinking about from the start?

John 13:46

It very much just sort of emerged in the telling-

Jane 13:49

Yeah

John 13:50

to be honest. You know, that's there. There is, there's the prophecy that, like, Lancelot's gonna be one of the greatest knights, but, like, a lot of the knights in Arthurian legend have that type of prophecy, right?

Jane 14:02

Yeah.

John 14:02

And, and for him in particular, it's sort of interesting. So- Galehoot, um, Galehoot joins Lancelot in training on the Isle of Women in the early part of the book, and that's where they first connect and, and sort of begin to fall in love. And at first, Lancelot has had, like, no social interaction, right? He's barely connected with anyone, a- any other boys or anyone his age. Really, he just lives on this i- secluded island with these women. And so when Lancelot comes on to the island, he's, like, so desperate for his approval, he just wants his camaraderie, but he's also very cautious of revealing that sense of desperation. But at the same time, Galehoot, who seems to be very confident and well-versed in knightly, in knighthood, knows of Lancelot's prophecy, and he's a little intimidated by that. So that's sort of where it started, was this idea of, like, how would this prophecy sort of affect their dynamics relationally, but then how would it, how would it... Knowing that, like, you have this sort of that your future is in some way foretold, how do you react to that? Do you push back against it? What happens when you push back against it? How far do you try to push back against it? Those were questions that kind of emerged in the telling that were really fun.

Jane 15:34

Yeah. Yeah, completely. I wanna talk a little bit about Guinevere too, b- and her, and Lancelot's relationship with her in your story, and I loved her as a character in this. And so what, like, how did you make the decisions about what their story was gonna be in your version of the tale, of the legend?

John 15:52

I loved writing Guinevere so much. So she in the original, Lancelot and Guinevere famously have an affair- Mm-hmm and that sort of leads to the downfall of Camelot in a way. And so I knew that, like, Guinevere had to play a crucial role in the story, and I knew that they, Lancelot and Guinevere would connect. But I wanted to kind of... I wanted to, to play around with it. So we see their connection as, like, very deep and immediate, and they're drawn to each other, but it's not a sexual relationship. Mm-hmm. It's a, a profound friendship. And what... I still wanted to sort of play with, like, but w- what does that look like to everyone in the court, right? Yeah. What are they talking about? What are they presuming about their relationship? So there's not quite the same love triangle in this, but that connection is still really there. When when I was writing Guinevere, too, I was, like, very much picturing Princess Diana. Oh. I, like she was sort of visually what I was picturing, but also this idea that, like, she's sort of th- thrown into this, very public position and kind of has the weight and expectations of an entire kingdom on her shoulders. What does that do to a person? Mm-hmm and I, I sort of imagine that it would be kind of a very lonely perch, and you sort of see that come through in her character.

Jane 17:34

Like Princess Diana, who was kind of like a- Very lonely. Yeah, exactly.

John 17:39

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Jane 17:41

Yeah, so, I have to ask this question with this huge success of Heated Rivalry, do you have any thoughts on who would play Lancelot or anyone else in the movie or TV series version of this?

John 17:54

Oh my gosh. Everyone keeps asking me this- and I'm like, so Geilhu is a redhead, so that narrows it down. Right. So like, he's also, is it Tom Holland? Is it Kit Connor? Um- Mm-hmm.

Jane 18:11

Oh, that's a

John 18:11

good one but then, yeah. But then who plays Lancelot? I honestly don't know. Lancelot has, he has like blonde tousled hair. I don't know. Uh, you would think maybe Ryan Reyn- or Ryan Gosling, but he's too old I think to play Lancelot now. Right. I don't know. Who... Did you have any... Were you picturing anyone?

Jane 18:32

I was thinking, like I don't, I'm, I don't know if I'm hip enough to know the young actors like that would fit, you know?

John 18:37

Yeah, it's like, 'cause they're, they would probably, you would want someone who could at least play down to their early 20s even if they're- Yeah a little older. So I don't really know. Yeah it's... I need to come up with a good response to that question. That's all right. Right. And- 'Cause everyone keeps asking me. But it would be so, it would be so cool to imagine it as, to see it as like a movie or TV show.

Jane 19:03

Total- Oh, I, I do like Sophie Sink for, um, Guinevere. I think she would be a good one.

John 19:07

Ooh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. She would be great. She has the look. Definitely.

Jane 19:11

Yeah. She has the- Yes presence. I think she would be good.

John 19:14

I do... So Geilhu's mom is a giantess named Brigida. And she in my mind is very much like Brienne of Tarth from Game of Thrones. I don't know if you watched that show.

Jane 19:25

Oh, no, I'd have to go look back. Yeah.

John 19:28

She... I can't remember. Gwendoline Christie is the actress's name. She also, she's in Severance too, but she is like very much like... she would have to play- A badass. She would have to play Geilhu's mom. Yeah.

Jane 19:41

Have you had any movie interest, or can you not talk about it, or...?

John 19:44

Some nibbl- Yeah, some nibbles. Yeah, yeah. I think like the challenge of it is that, it's a period piece and it's, you know- Mm sweeping. So to bring it to, to bring it to- that in that medium, it would require, like, someone with a really big vision.

Jane 20:04

Yeah. That's, I mean, that's what I think that same with historical. It's just, it's more expensive and it requires more, yeah. So I have a bunch of writing related questions. You said, uh, in your author's notes, which I recommend everyone read, 'cause I, I loved- I'm such a nerd about that stuff. I loved all your sources and, and notes. Um, writing this novel was a tremendous joy, in part because I didn't think anyone would ever read it. So this is your first novel. What was your process like?

John 20:33

Oh, man. My process was, like, chaotic. I really, I mean that when I say the only way I could have written this was to convince myself that n- this wasn't going anywhere beyond just, like, this is I wanna finish this for myself.

Jane 20:50

Mm-hmm.

John 20:50

And no one ever has to read it. I don't have to share it with a soul, but I wanna be able to get to the end, and I wanna write this book. So once I tapped into that mindset, then I was really able to kind of it liberated me from any sort of expectations of, of the book being good, of, uh, the insecurities that I had around my my orientation to the material, the fact that I'm not coming, that I wasn't coming at it from the perspective of an academic. Mm-hmm. So, it helped me kind of conquer that self-doubt in a way because it recentered, it shifted the focus to like, oh yeah, writing's just fun.

Jane 21:36

Mm-hmm.

John 21:36

Right? Like, I'm doing this for the love of it, and it's hard work. I'm challenging myself, but it's, it- it's fulfilling, right? It's fulfilling work. And so that was sort of, that was, like, the minds- yeah, that was the mindset that I really needed to do it.

Jane 21:54

And then in terms of process, are you I always ask this question. Are, did you plot things out? Did you kind of just pl- you know, s- write by the seat of your pants, as they say? Or did you, are you a plotter and planner?

John 22:05

I'm kind of somewhere in the middle. I like to know the loose beats of a story. Like, I don't really plot. I kind of I make a list, right? Mm-hmm. Of, like, this happens, then this happens, and this happens. And I find that, like, as I get further into the book, the list gets more more and more, the, it the it gets longer. Mm-hmm. And, and not necessarily that the book gets longer, but the list gets more granular and more detailed. So it's like this conversation happens, and then this scene happens, and then they move to this moment. And so I'm ki- Yeah, I'm, like, ki- I don't know if you would c- It's not really a true outline. But it's also not Like, it gives me some room to kind of get in there and, like, see what, see what my characters are up to, what they're thinking. Like, it gives me room to be spontaneous and to kind of explore, but I have, like, some sense of a roadmap, basically.

Jane 23:04

Yeah. Well, w- I, I would think with historical fiction, like, this is so much research that you have to have some sort of, like, at least beats you wanna hit along the way to keep organized, right? Like, in terms of I mean, there's so much to this story in terms of the histo-

John 23:17

Yeah

Jane 23:17

research. So yeah.

John 23:19

Oh, exactly. Yeah. And then, you know, I had, like, separate Word docs going of, like, here's all of the historical details about, like, what was going on in, in, the, i- i- in the mainland. Here's what was going on in Brit- And, like, here's what was, was happening in Ireland even, 'cause we have some scenes that Like, I had all of these different Word docs going of details about food, details about, you know- Mm-hmm society at this time. Yeah. Like, it was so much. And still, and yet I missed so many things. I had a, an expert read it. I did have a medievalist give it a read once I was done to kind of catch anything that was, like, glaring, and she caught, like, so many things that would've been so embarrassing if they had made it into the final book. So.

Jane 24:09

Oh, I feel that so much. I've done the same. Like, I have found a freelancer for the last couple books 'cause I just didn't wanna, like, be mortified by something.

John 24:16

Yeah.

Jane 24:17

You know?

John 24:18

Yeah.

Jane 24:18

It

John 24:18

was amazing. Yeah. Shout-out to Becky Lartigue at Springfield College. She was so great.

Jane 24:24

Awesome. So you come from a editorial background. How does that influence your writing?

John 24:31

Good question. Yeah, so I've been in publishing on the other side of the fence now since 2012. And, um, yeah, for my day job I'm, I'm a book editor. I do a mix of fiction and nonfiction, and I think it definitely plays a role in, in my writing i- in terms of, like, from a craft standpoint, I think that I'm a much better reviser and an editor of my own work than I am when I'm creating a rough draft, mm-hmm. I think that I can create, like, a pretty bad rough draft, but I can bring it up, a few levels in the revision process.

Jane 25:13

Yeah.

John 25:13

But I think more than anything, being on the other side of the fence, I also my expectations, I think, are more right-sized just because I know kind of how hard it is to make a book work today.

Jane 25:27

Mm-hmm.

John 25:28

Not to be depressing, but, like, it's really challenging. And what that did for me is that it allows me just to celebrate every little win, you know?

Jane 25:40

Mm-hmm.

John 25:41

Because they do matter, you know? They do. So any good review any nice mention, you know? Mm-hmm. Any positive reader feedback, it's all great, right? Yeah. And just the fact that it gets to be a book is so cool. So yeah.

Jane 25:57

No, I'm so glad you said that. I, I talked to my author friends. I was at a festival a couple weeks ago, and, and it's true. You, like You have to celebrate the little milestones along the way, 'cause this industry's hard, and writing a book is hard. Publishing is hard, you know? So- It

John 26:10

sure is.

Jane 26:11

Yeah. You just gotta, like, celebrate each little, uh, you know, like you said, each little win, for sure.

John 26:16

Yeah. Exactly.

Jane 26:18

Just a couple more questions. Um, this is a two-part one. We have a lot of writers that listen to this podcast. And you're a writer and an editorial director, what is the best advice you can give them about writing and about getting published?

John 26:33

So I would say those are t- like, think of those as two different things maybe- Uh-huh would be, like, a place that I would start. I think write the thing you, you love, yeah. And e- and write for the joy of writing. That it's so wild how, like, I'll I've worked with so many authors, so many novelists over the years. You can tell when an author is having fun, you know? Oh, yeah. When this was, when that was a fun book to write or, like, they really just, like, they brought all, everything they had, like, a lot of passion to the project- Mm-hmm it totally shines through in the telling. So not only does it benefit you editorially to write from that place of exuberance, but I think, like, the only way to stay sane and do this, 'cause s- e- especially if you're like me where, like, writing is something you do on the side, right? Yeah. Like, if you have that 9:00 to 5:00 and you're writing it fi- you want it to be joyful, yeah. You want it to be That's not to say that it's easy or that it's it can be painful too. But it also, you want it to be fun.

Jane 27:48

Mm-hmm, yeah.

John 27:49

And then from, in terms of publishing it's all about having a thick skin. Everyone always says this, but all it takes is one agent- And one editor to fall in love with your book,

Jane 28:01

yep.

John 28:01

And nos really are just tickets to the game. Everyone hears them.

Jane 28:06

Mm-hmm.

John 28:06

And, it, I think that, like, anyone who can, who can publish a book, like, it's worth celebrating,

Jane 28:14

absolutely. Yeah. Good advice. Are you ready to share what you're working on now or next, or you're just enjoying the ride? I know this just came out a month ago, so

John 28:25

I'm very much enjoying the ride, yeah. Good for you. I mean- I have a couple ideas that I'm vacillating between and I'm like, taking them for, like, a road test each in my mind right now. Mm-hmm. But I haven't really sat down to put pen to paper yet. So we'll see.

Jane 28:45

Yeah.

John 28:45

We'll see. Yeah. Awesome. It kind of, kind of depends on which one, which one calls to me more.

Jane 28:51

Percolates. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John 28:53

Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Jane 28:53

and how can readers best stay in touch with you?

John 28:57

I'm on Instagram at glenner85, my last name Glen, and glenner85- Okay is my Instagram name. That's probably the easiest way. I'm also on TikTok at johnglenbooks, but I'm more frequently on Instagram.

Jane 29:13

Got it. Same. Um-

John 29:14

Mm-hmm

Jane 29:15

so that is a wrap, John. It was lovely to meet you. Thank you again for being a guest, and congratulations on your debut. Again, the novel is The Lost Book of Lancelot, and it's available now wherever books are sold. My latest novel is The Women at Worlington Hall. Please remember to subscribe to my YouTube channel or follow me wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks again, John, and thanks to everyone for listening.

John 29:39

Thank you. Thank you. This was so much fun.