The Original by Priya Parmar

Jane Healey welcomes author Priya Parmar to The Jane Healey Happy Hour to discuss The Original, her new novel inspired by Katharine Hepburn’s remarkable life and career. Priya shares how a simple conversation with her mother led to months of research, including reading dozens of books, visiting Hepburn’s homes, and working with primary source materials to better understand the woman behind the public image. The conversation also explores the challenge of balancing historical fact with fiction, the writing process, and why Hepburn’s determination to reinvent herself continues to resonate.

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Jane 0:05

Welcome to the newly branded Jane Healey Happy Hour, formerly Historical Happy Hour, the podcast that explores new and exciting novels of all genres. I'm your host, best-selling author Jane Healey, and in today's episode, we welcome Priya Parmar to discuss her new novel, The Original, which has been called, "A riveting and unputdownable journey through fame, rebellion, and the relentless pursuit of authenticity." It releases April 28th. Welcome, Priya. I'll hold up the book, too, for the YouTube people.

Priya 0:36

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Jane 0:39

Yeah, thanks for doing this. I'm gonna do a quick bio, and then we'll dive in. Sounds great. Um, Priya Parmar is the author of the novels Exit, Exit the Actress- Mm-hmm the... and Vanessa and Her Sister, a New York Times notable book, and sh- is co-author of the musical Sylvia, nominated for the Olivier Award for Best New Musical. She divides her time between Hawaii and Connecticut with her family and four rescue dogs. Again, welcome.

Priya 1:07

Thank you so much.

Jane 1:09

So congratulations on this latest novel, The Original. W- what drew you to write a novel about Katharine Hepburn?

Priya 1:20

I've always loved her. I've always loved her, and, uh, my... I was watching one of her old movies with my mom and my stepdaughter, and I... My mom happened to just mention out of nowhere, you know, "This is her comeback movie," and I was really surprised. I was like, "Comeback from what? W- when was she ever not, on top?" I... You know, that's not something that lives in my- understanding of her. And so I fell down a Google rabbit hole, and then I fell down some more, and then I found myself ordering a ton of books, and that's kind of how it started. And I was in denial for a long time that I was actually writing it. Uh, you know, I was like, "I'm just interested. I'm just reading about her." And then finally, like six months in, I was like, "I've read 30 books about her. I'm clearly-" doing this. Like, this is happening." It's

Jane 2:14

time. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that, like, segues really perfectly into my next question. You know, it's biographical fiction about Katharine Hepburn. What was your research process like, and how did you figure out how to shape her story?

Priya 2:31

The research process was really actually very different from other books that I've done, because this is the first person I've ever written about where I could see how they moved and see how they walked, and I know how they sounded. So, so it, I was starting with a lot more physical information than I ever have before. But then I was also starting with a period I knew much less about. Mm-hmm so it was a ton of primary research, you know, chasing all over the country, finding letters, you know, finding, uh, you know, her documents are sort of stored in a couple of different places. One, I'm really lucky in that all of her theater stuff is right here in the Billy Rose, um- Mm-hmm in New York, so that's fantastic. Um, and then so there was all the primary documentation, and then the secondary documentation, all of the reading of the biographies and her own writing and watching the films. And then I went and, you know, visited all of the places where she'd lived, and all these houses are now owned by other people. You know, so it was lots of, kind of standing in people's front yards, probably it, when they wished I wouldn't.

Jane 3:48

That's amazing. But

Priya 3:50

it was great. It was lovely to, to spend time in the places that, where she'd been.

Jane 3:56

So interesting, and I, you know, I love talking research. Uh, and one of the things you, you men- you mentioned in the first question, and I thought so too, I was like, gosh, I, I guess I didn't realize that she had such a tumultuous ca- career, right? She wasn't always on top, and that was a surprise to me, 'cause I think th- that's the perception, right? She's this, like- Yeah revered Hollywood star. So was there anything else in your research that really surprised you about her life?

Priya 4:24

So much. Really? Um, yes. I don't want to give away too many spoilers if you're coming to it not knowing, that much about her life, which is, is... That's one of the things that's really nice, actually, is I don't think you have to know very much about her to, to, you know, engage with this novel. Mm-hmm. Um, but I didn't know her life had gone the way it had. I didn't know there was that much tragedy in her family. I didn't know she had come from all this trauma. I didn't know I, I didn't understand the ups and downs of her early professional life. You know, so, so many of these things were a massive, massive, uh, surprise to me. She had always seemed, to be, I... The other thing is that she'd always sort of seemed to me to be very she is who she is.

Jane 5:16

Mm-hmm. And that

Priya 5:17

Salty, New England persona seems to be, I just thought it, it came ready-made, you know, that's who she was. But in actual fact, you know, I, in doing all this research into her earlier life, I saw how she curated that image, how she projected that image, how she really... The, the person we remember is the one she wanted us to remember. Mm-hmm. So that was a big surprise to me, you know, how, how careful she was about her public image.

Jane 5:49

Yes. Yeah, totally agree. Um, so you weave in a number of kind of her core people into the story. So Cary Grant, Howard Hughes, the Selznicks, um, her ex-husband Luddy, her on-again, off-again girlfriend Laura. And how did you balance who these people were in Hollywood history and who they were as real people in her life?

Priya 6:14

It was a tricky balance, because it was, they are all worth a book on their own. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. They're all... if I wasn't really rigorous with myself, Cary Grant would just walk off with the story- Mm-hmm because he was so much fun to write, and he was so interesting. And his life, multiple novels i- in his. Mm-hmm. Yeah, same with Irene Selznick, same with David Selznick, same with, you know, so all these, same with Leland Hayward, you know, all of these people, you know. And there were such great stories that had to sort of hit the cutting room floor that I was so sad about. You know, things like, and I held onto some of them for so long before I finally was like, "No, they have to go." Like Leland Hayward's stepmother, had, she traded a perfect string of pearls, you know, for the Cartier building, which was her, you know, just these things like that, and you're like, "I can't." Not- Yeah have that. You're like, "But it doesn't fit in the story." It's like, well, I can build a scene to make it fit, but you know, you- Right,

Jane 7:15

right

Priya 7:15

go. So there was so much, fine-tuning to find the balance to make sure that nobody overwhelmed the story, and the research, that it all felt organic, that it all felt like it was there for a reason, and it wasn't just there because I had spent weeks and weeks and weeks and desperately wanted it to be in the story.

Jane 7:35

Oh, I understand that so, so well. Yeah. When you find something juicy and you're like, you just wanna put it in- Oh and it doesn't really... Yeah.

Priya 7:43

And it doesn't work, and you're, you're sort of, you spend so long, you sort of talk yourself into it and you're like, "No, this works. This is, this is here for a reason." And then- Yeah you

Jane 7:50

know,

Priya 7:50

not.

Jane 7:50

No.

Priya 7:51

It's gotta go.

Jane 7:52

I hear you. I wanna talk, I love you know, talking about structure too, and so you t- it's told from Kate's perspective, but then you have, other people t- like different, uh, people in her life circling around her, their perspective as well. Did you always ch- plan on structuring it that way?

Priya 8:10

No.

Jane 8:11

Oh, really?

Priya 8:11

It's really interesting because I thought it was gonna be in the first person, and I thought it was gonna be her all the way through. And it d- you know when you are y- urging a story into a shape that it doesn't wanna go?

Jane 8:25

Mm-hmm.

Priya 8:26

And it didn't wanna go into that shape. It wanted a different shape. So I, stopped, I regrouped, I went back, I, and I let it be in a different shape, and when I did, that's when the Los Angeles sections sprang to life. That's when, you know, everybody, it turns out, had something to say and different perspec- you know, and it, and it just, the book sort of came alive in a, in a way I didn't- Oh, so cool I didn't expect.

Jane 8:54

Um- Yeah

Priya 8:55

yeah, it didn't, it didn't wanna be in first person. It really was resisting hard.

Jane 8:59

Interesting. So interesting. So I mean, the, the book's title is perfect, The Original, and I, uh, talk a little bit about like she was like just this like independent spirit, kind of broke the mold of like the Hollywood glamour girls of the time of old Hollywood. Uh, talk about like her struggles and her career and, and the choices she made a little bit, so for readers, you know, who aren't, aren't that familiar with her. Like I am, but I, I think some people, like you said, and I don't think you need to know anything about her to read this story. Mm-hmm. Like it's very, it's fascinating. But talk a little bit about what s- what she went through to achieve what she did.

Priya 9:37

First of all, the title, I can't take credit for that.

Jane 9:40

Oh.

Priya 9:40

I, my friend Paula McLain who wrote The Paris Wife, she, uh-

Jane 9:44

Oh, yeah, yeah

Priya 9:45

and Skylark, which just came out and is brilliant. She, um, we were on a walk in New York and she, y- we couldn't think of a title, and we couldn't think of a title. And, uh, she was like, "Okay, what are the words that have come up when you've asked people about her?" Because I, I went round asking people, "What are the words you think of when you think of Katharine Hepburn?" And it, you know, original was one of those three words that had, had come up. And she was like, "That's it. That's the title." And, uh, so I, I was stuck, and I didn't have a title. So yeah, so that was, that was one thing. And then in terms of, like, what she went through to, to build her career, you know, she was, she was acting at a time when stars didn't have very much control. Mm. They really didn't. They had an agent, but the agent was, you know, managing loan-outs to other studios, and they were very much operating within a, a rigid system that was not really built to give them huge range. It was built to give them, like, "Okay, this is what you can do. This is your lane. Here it is. We've figured it out. Off you go. Now you're just gonna do lots and lots of this." It wasn't built to give them, if somebody had, had found their niche as a, as a comedian, they weren't, it wasn't, g- going to support them, you know, now doing drama- Mm-hmm or something like that. So she realized that she was in a bad lane, and she rebelled, and she bought her... You know, she was, uh, she had, you know, she figured out, I don't wanna give things away, but she figured out how to get round it, and she figured out how to beat Hollywood at their own game by reinventing herself completely- Yes and figuring out what she needed to be in order to sort of win back the country.

Jane 11:45

Yeah. Um, and I thank you for sharing about the title because I'm always... Titles are so hard, and I'm always interested to, like, how people come to- Um- come to the titles. Yeah. They're so- But it's perfect hard. Yeah.

Priya 11:56

Yeah. Um- That was Paula. I was stuck. I- Yeah

Jane 11:58

completely

Priya 11:59

stuck. I had come up with Kate, period. That was it. Yeah.

Jane 12:03

Like. Yeah. So I'm always curious, especially with bi- I, I've only written one novel that's biographical fiction, and I found it super, super challenging because it was a real person in history who, uh, still has family members alive, like, all of that. And so talk about, like, how- Did you strike the balance between, like, the documented facts of Katharine Hepburn's life and where you had to fill in the gaps?

Priya 12:28

I sort of think of the, the... I love that you say fill in the gaps, because that's exactly how I think of it. I think of it as, as a, as a physical kind of a, a puzzle, and I think of the, the facts, the chronology as this sort of this topographical crust, this, this- Mm-hmm you know, th- these are the things we know happened. But we can never know really why things happened. We can never really know what someone was thinking, you know, what someone was doing, what, you know, in their, in their thought process.

Jane 13:01

Mm-hmm.

Priya 13:02

I'm so sorry, I have dogs wandering around. Oh, no worry. Um, so, uh, so what I always think of is, okay, these are the facts. This is the, this is what we know, and then underneath all of that moral, emotional logic is the fiction. That's what you're building.

Jane 13:18

Mm-hmm. And

Priya 13:19

so I'm, I think of this as a very much as a fictional Katharine Hepburn. I, I took all of the facts and then I read all of, everything I could get my hands on, you know? And my background- Mm-hmm is in academics, so I'm, I'm insanely obsessive about research, you know? Mm-hmm. So I read everything I could find, and then I waited for a character to step forward and sort of show me who they were. And she did. You know, a, a character came forward and, and had their own logic and sh- you know, and it's, it's that process of, of understanding, okay, so this is what we know historically, this is what I know from my research, and this is what feels right for this person who is, now talking in my head. You know, that's, the kind of the weird alchemy that we do.

Jane 14:11

Right, yep, absolutely. I, so y- what, you know, I, I... for, especially for people who don't know a lot about Katharine Hepburn or her career or her movies, like, what do you want readers to take away, like, about her? Like, what's kind of the one message that you want, about who she was?

Priya 14:29

I mean, I want readers to... I mean, first, I want readers, I, what I always hope with readers is that they feel a sense of ownership when they finish a book. Mm-hmm. Because I think no two readers ever read the same book. I think you meet it with your own life, you meet it with all of your experience, and then there's that very specific chemistry that happens you know, between you and a book. And so I hope that they have moments of recognition and moments of, of, reflection that, that- resonate in their own life. So that's, number one, what I always hope for everything that I write. And then the other thing that I hope is that they can see, you know, how hard this person worked to sort of- Yeah blaze a trail, and how she had such an impact on the next century of women in film. You know, she- Yeah she really made a massive difference. Um, so that- Absolutely.

Jane 15:26

Yeah those are the two

Priya 15:27

things.

Jane 15:28

Yeah. I, I, on that note, I was, um, thinking as I was reading it, I was like, I need to go back and watch some of her old movies. Uh-huh. Like, I haven't re- I haven't watched a Katharine Hepburn movie in forever. Do you have a favorite of hers?

Priya 15:40

Absolutely. It cha- I mean, when I was growing up it was Little Women. Ah. But now it's Philadelphia Story.

Jane 15:46

I was gonna say Philadelphia Story. That was the last one I've seen, and it was a while ago, but I'm like- Yeah I feel like I need to go back and watch it again, so. So good. Yeah. Yeah. So good. So good. Um-

Priya 15:55

It

Jane 15:55

was,

Priya 15:56

yeah, a dream.

Jane 15:56

Yeah. And so I have a few, like, writing questions that I ask everyone who comes on. You've talked a little bit about your process for this one. Are you a plotter or a pantser, or somewhere in between? Like, do you plot things out? Do you write by the seat of your pants, or is it a, kind of a mix of the two?

Priya 16:16

I have some sort of some flags planted out there-

Jane 16:18

Mm-hmm

Priya 16:19

that I know I'm gonna, that I'm aiming for. So they're, they're out there, but other than that, I'm flying around by the seat of my pants.

Jane 16:27

Wow.

Priya 16:28

So. Yeah.

Jane 16:28

I, I love hearing process, 'cause everyone is so different, and there's no wrong way or right way. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's so

Priya 16:34

interesting. Oh, no. When I tell, when I say that to friends of mine who plot everything down to the last detail the horrified look on their face-

Jane 16:40

I

Priya 16:41

know, yeah it just helps me

Jane 16:42

to- Yeah, that like... I'm a plotter, so that makes me want to, like, break out in a sweat when I hear- Okay yeah. Yeah.

Priya 16:47

Yeah. So I, I have a, a really good friend who's a, she's a historical fiction author, and she's written, so many. And she told me really early on that if it's really important, it'll rise to the top- and it'll fit with you, and it'll turn up in the book. And if it isn't important enough, it won't. And so that's what I console myself with when I, get worried about the fact that I don't plot.

Jane 17:11

Yeah. No, no, no, that's great advice.

Priya 17:13

I hope so. Yeah. I, I don't go back and look at the notes in case there's anything I should have had in there.

Jane 17:19

No, no, no. I didn't. I think you're fine.

Priya 17:21

Don't go look. Um,

Jane 17:23

another question, and it's one I'm grappling with right now, like, do you do the majority of your research up front? Do you, uh, uh, research as you go? I- or is it a combination of both? Like, I, I find, like, I did, I'm doing a ton up front, but then I'm also c- constantly having to go back or, or- Yeah pull something new out or, you know? So.

Priya 17:43

Yeah. I, you never really stop, do you? Yeah. You can't really stop. You can't just sort of say, "Okay, now I know everything I need to know," 'cause you don't know what you're gonna need as you go along.

Jane 17:53

Yeah, yeah. Um,

Priya 17:54

but research also can be somewhere where I, hang out where I'm af- when I'm afraid to start writing. Mm-hmm. And I have to, give myself a, a s- push and just be like, "Okay, you..." You know. It's

Jane 18:07

time. Yeah.

Priya 18:08

It's time. You're hiding here. All right. You don't really need to, you know, out you go. Yeah. So yeah. So there's, there's that.

Jane 18:15

Yeah. For me, it's when I'm, like, looking at things like fashion, and I'm like, "Okay, Jane, like, you really... You can put this in later." Like, it's j- Yeah it's time to, like, lock in. Yeah.

Priya 18:24

That's right. Yeah. You... We know when we've crossed the line and when we're, like, now just lurking and hiding. Right. Not...

Jane 18:32

Yeah, totally. Totally.

Priya 18:33

Absolutely.

Jane 18:34

Um, what part of the writing process do you enjoy the most, and what part do you find the most challenging?

Priya 18:42

The middle. The middle is challenging for me. The middle, the middle feels like swimming through molasses in the dark.

Jane 18:52

Mm-hmm. For

Priya 18:52

me.

Jane 18:53

Yeah.

Priya 18:53

The beginning is so fun. The end is so fun. The middle is really tough.

Jane 18:59

Yeah.

Priya 18:59

And my... Yeah. So that would be, in terms of the structure, that would be, how it is for me. But then in terms of fun in the writing process, I actually weirdly love the editing process. I love when it's all there. Mm-hmm. And now I'm in the shaping and the tinkering and the... You know? Yeah. That's a really fun space as well.

Jane 19:23

Yeah, I agree. I love the revision process. Yes. Like, my own revisions, e- my editor's revisions, I enjoy that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to, like, amp it all up and make it the best thing it can be and yeah.

Priya 19:33

Yes.

Jane 19:33

Mm-hmm.

Priya 19:34

Yes, unless Adobe doesn't work, and then you're up at 3:00 in the morning crying and on the phone with tech support and all of those things. And other than that-

Jane 19:41

Oh, God. That's awful. What advice do you have to aspiring authors out there about writing and about getting published? I know they're, like, ver- two very different things, but-

Priya 19:54

Yes. Two very different things. I think in terms of writing, it would be... Well, one is reading. Read everything you can. Just read. Don't worry about if it's in your genre, it's in your... You know, what- Mm-hmm just read everything you can. And read, read with the intention of understanding, how does this work? Mm. If it's annoying me, how does it annoy me? If it's bothering me, if I'm wanting to skip ahead, why am I wanting to skip ahead? Like, so reading to- To understand the puppet strings. You know, you don't, you're not, you're not at the puppet show anymore. You're- Mm-hmm you need to see the strings. You wanna see how it works. You know, so that would be, that would be a big thing. And then the other thing would be writing for your own ear. Mm-hmm. You know, your own ear is so smart. It knows your style before you consciously do. Mm-hmm. Your own ear knows how a line should sound to you, how, how things, you know, your, your, the gait of your writing, the phrasing of your writing. You know, so write for your own ear would be my big thing. And, and if people tell you it doesn't work, really be sure and think really carefully before you change it. You know what I mean? Just, like-

Jane 21:11

Mm-hmm.

Priya 21:13

Yeah re- really think and, and be careful who you let into the editing process, and make sure it's people you really trust.

Jane 21:19

Yes. That's all such excellent advice, especially, like, reading for craft, you know? And, uh, like you said, with, and, and not just reading for pleasure. It's such a different thing, and it makes you think about, like you said, like the, what's going on behind the scenes, how, why the author made the choices that they make. Yeah. That's really- Yeah good advice.

Priya 21:36

Yeah. And when you're, when you're wanting to skip ahead, why are you wanting to skip ahead? When you're bored- Mm when you go back and reread something twice 'cause you love it, when you, you know, if you're still thinking about something later, like, why are you You know, just understanding all of it is so important. And it ki- you know, y- I tell You know, when I teach writing, I always tell students, I'm like, "Okay, you're, you're not in the audience anymore. Like, you're- Mm-hmm you're

Jane 21:59

done

Priya 22:00

with that part. You're now, time to get behind the curtain."

Jane 22:03

That's right. That's right. Are you ready to share what you're working on now or next, or not, not there yet?

Priya 22:09

I'm in the, the sort of, like, the new colt standing on its legs- and probably going to fall over stage. So I can't quite say 'cause you n- you know when you don't know if it's good or not?

Jane 22:22

Oh, yeah. Yep.

Priya 22:24

Yeah. I'm in, I'm in that right now. But it's fun so far if it works. Ask me in about two months.

Jane 22:33

No, no, I understand that 'cause you don't wanna mess with the mojo, right? Like, you can't share too much with anyone. I, I won't even talk to my husband about it until like Yeah. Yeah. There's a

Priya 22:41

point of ti- don't you find that? There's a point of time where it's like if you let anyone into that space- Mm-hmm it's something

Jane 22:48

Yes

Priya 22:49

some magic seeps out, and then you it's different

Jane 22:52

It's absolutely true. Yeah. Um, what, are you- That's Priya are you reading anything that right now? Like, are you, is there anything you're-

Priya 22:59

Oh, goodness, I'm reading everything right now. I'm reading so much that's good. I'm reading, uh, my friend Christina Baker Kline's book comes out on the 12th. It's called The Foursome.

Jane 23:08

Oh, yeah. I- I heard that's excellent. Yeah,

Priya 23:11

I love her I, I just finished. It's so good. I'm reading... What else am I reading? I'm reading, like, six books. I just started, uh, Lily King's Heart the Lover, which I am, like, the last person to read. Um, and it-

Jane 23:23

Oh, that's on my Kindle and I haven't read it yet, but yeah, everyone raves about that one, too. Yeah. Yeah.

Priya 23:28

And it's just as beautiful as... I'm trying to read the whole women's fiction longlist, and I

Jane 23:33

just- Oh, nice

Priya 23:34

got to her. What

Jane 23:34

a great idea. Yeah.

Priya 23:35

It's so good. Yeah. Oh. No, I, I just find they, they always make such great selections.

Jane 23:41

Yeah. Excellent. How can readers best keep in touch with you?

Priya 23:46

So I am newly on Substack. Oh, cool. Um, and I am on Instagram, and it's priyaparmarwriting on Instagram. And if you show up there, I hope you like dogs, because I have- many dogs.

Jane 24:03

You have four, right? I have one. Four.

Priya 24:05

You have one? Oh.

Jane 24:06

Yeah. And two cats, so it's just cute.

Priya 24:08

Oh, God. My husband's allergic. I would so love to have cats. Yes, four, four dogs. One of them, I'm sitting on the edge of my seat because he's insisting on taking 70% of the seat, one of

Jane 24:19

them. Of course. He's

Priya 24:20

whining.

Jane 24:21

So

Priya 24:21

funny. Yes.

Jane 24:24

Um, and do you Zoom with book clubs ever? Is that something you do? Oh, yes.

Priya 24:27

Oh, okay. I love doing

Jane 24:27

that.

Priya 24:28

Oh. I love meeting readers, always. So you can always, um, get in touch with me on Instagram and I'll see it.

Jane 24:35

Excellent, excellent. Um, this was so lovely. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you for taking t- time. I know you got a lot going on and you're g- launching next week. Um, but the, again, the novel is The Original. It comes out- April 28th, um, that's a wrap. Congratulations on this wonderful novel. Oh, thank you. It honor... And I feel like it honors Katharine Hepburn and more, if you don't know e- enough about her, like everyone, everyone should know about Katharine Hepburn. She's just amazing. Oh. And you honor her so well with this,

Priya 25:03

thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun.

Jane 25:07

Yeah, thank you so much, and that's a wrap, Oh,

Priya 25:09

thank you

Jane 25:09

yes, yeah. Don't forget to follow Happy Hour wherever you listen to podcasts or subscribe to my YouTube channel. Thank you again, Priya. Congratulations.

Priya 25:17

Thank you, thank you. Thank you.