The Working World

Kiri Stejko | CSO at Parents at Work

August 12, 2021 The Working World Season 1 Episode 12
The Working World
Kiri Stejko | CSO at Parents at Work
Show Notes Transcript

Kiri Stejko, CSO at Parents at Work has a background in People & Culture, Talent management, and acquisition and now works with HR and Business Leaders to maximise talent strategies - including family friendly culture initiatives.  

In addition to Kiri’s CSO role, Kiri is part of The Changing Places Group which is a People and Culture consultancy, founded in Australia and servicing clients globally.

In this episode, we hear how organisations need to acknowledge that everyone in the workplace is juggling external responsibilities (parenthood, carer, etc.) and managers need to open it up as a conversation.

Parents at Work have developed an Australian Certification to set a standard and provide an ongoing commitment to run a family friendly workplace, with an annual Action Plan required every year and a certification review bi-annually.    

Unknown:

Hi, and welcome to the working world. I'm Karen Mendez. And I'm Jamie. Jamie, we just had a super interesting conversation with Gary Seiko, the CSO at parent at work and family friendly workplaces. My gosh, it was I got to say care in my head is still spinning. I mean, the direction about, you know, having, but I suppose that the whole inclusive nature of including families and having, you know, policies to do with families and working from home, etc. And I mean, that's that's obviously been around for a long time, but COVID has really accelerated that whole process. And Carrie was just, I mean, you know, as I said, My head is spinning. I'm just going, what can I How can I implement this policy? or What can I do from that procedure? It's, yeah, no, it's really good. And I've got to say, I hadn't heard the saying, what was the home? Home shirking? Sorry, home shirking? I just love it. I think that that's, it's quite a funny one. Shocking. Yeah. And it's something we both took away from this. Yeah, I guess, for everybody watching, at home or at work. For HR managers and managers in general, this one's a really good one for understanding what's possible around the service offerings, from from curious organization, but also, the, I guess, the baseline best practices that they can start thinking about to help make their organizations a more family friendly workplace. Great to get to get you started. I agree, Karen, I think that if you haven't got a policy, great place to start, if you have got a policy, great place to learn and work out where you can improve it, because I tell you, there's a lot of experience there. So, Carrie, welcome to the working world. Hey, Carrie, welcome. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Good. Thank you. Good. Carrie, I'm wondering, can you tell us, you know, in relation to family friendly workplaces, you know, what does? What does that mean for our viewers, and had organizations go about building that within their culture? I mean, this what this means really, I love the fact that people are now talking about family friendly workplaces, obviously, that's the business that we're in. But what it really means is, I mean, we're in the first sort of generation historically, where the majority of families have more than one working parent, we don't have the traditional model of you know, there's one person taking care of the finances and the other person taking care of the home responsibilities, that is becoming, you know, less the case due to cost of living and just changes in, you know, women in the workforce. And therefore, everyone is doing this juggle, you know, that everyone in the workplace doesn't matter your gender, or, or, you know, your stage in life. We're all juggling. And we're not just juggling parenting, co parenting is obviously one type of outside of work responsibility. But more and more now, we're juggling caring responsibilities more broadly, you might be in the sandwich generation, you might be caring for an elderly family member, a chronic illness terminal, you know, terminal illness, there's lots of different caring types. And again, you know, we're all sort of figuring our way through this. And so workplaces are acknowledging this and acknowledging a role in that. And, you know, how do we sort of share some of that responsibility to ease the burden on employees who have these multiple responsibilities? I have literally thought, sorry, we might have to go back because I can hear it play slower right outside my door. My friends, oh, this is the joys of virtual play label that because we're living through reality, like there's this whole it's like the Instagram or there's Instagram realities. reality. This is some reality. Totally. I mean, I've got my headphones in, but I'm like, going, Oh, what is going on? anyway? So look, it's all about the workplace acknowledging some, you know, that everybody has lots going on outside of the workplace. And we now work flexibly, and you don't have a sort of nine to five necessarily schedule, either. And so we're blending work and family, you know, and how do we support that as an employer? I mean, that's really what it's all about. I just, I'm just curious what your thoughts are in relation to how prepared companies actually were for cobit. It feels like a lot of this, you know, sort of family friendly work environments might have been a nice thing on the on the corporate responsibility checklist. But actually, how ready were companies for this? Yeah, good question. So the business that we're in, which is you know, part of what we do is called parents at work. This is we've been doing this for 10 to 15 years. And as you know, the years have gone by the conversation has become a little easier. And since COVID, it's been really a lot easier than it ever was. And the you know, organizations are now sort of seeing the reality of people's personal lives and managers. And now we've all been drawn into each other's, you know, leaf blower environment. And so we actually see the pitch, we see the partners, we see the family members, it's a different conversation post COVID, I think you're right, pre COVID. One of the biggest conversations that was a challenge was the flexible work conversation, and there was a lot of advantages and organizations who would say no, that's not possible with the way we work, you really have to be in the office, you know, and there's particular hours, you have to be in the office, and you cannot do your job, unless you're in the office. And anyone who's working from home with they might be working from home, and we can't have any, any assurance that they're actually going to be doing their job in the way they need to do it. Because we can't see them. And that was a lot of what the conversation was pre COVID. And then probably if there's one good thing that we can say, has come out of COVID I would say it's flexible work. And the the reality that everyone has had to do it in some form or another, obviously shift workers, you know, aside, that the you know, we've all sort of proven it's possible, and anyone who previously said it wasn't now really doesn't have that solid base to stand on. So, yeah, I think there's a lot, there's a lot more to family friendly workplaces than just flexible work, of course, there's parental leave, and there's, you know, caregiving, and as well being, like, the topic of wellbeing for families has really escalated and elevated as well through COVID. So not just for families, I think for everyone, because we know that, you know, there's mental health concerns now. But, um, more so than ever. But yeah, I think that probably answers that question. Yeah, no, it's, it's funny, because one of the big topics at the moment, or I guess, a buzz phrase is, you know, the future of work. And, you know, even though that kind of depicts some sort of futuristic state, the future of work, I guess, in a, in a, in a flexible work environment is actually current day, right, we're all we're already moved into the future of work state be that flexible, flexibility working, like you said, working remotely. But I guess you're you're one of your key points, too, is the additional or parallel part of that is, you know, parental parental, or elevation of parental caring, flexibility, not just from a physical location point of view, but also acknowledging the responsibilities around it as well. And so I wonder whether, you know, what, what's your thoughts around organizations, you know, saying that they've had that or saying that they have that, versus actually really having that in practice? Do you think that that, do you think that they're going to have to be able to demonstrate that more wholeheartedly in order to attract and retain the best talent? Absolutely. 100%? I think, you know, it would have had to have happened eventually, anyway, because I think the generations coming through, have started to work differently and do expect more of a, you know, flexible, remote or work from anywhere kind of approach, which is not to say that everyone just you know, yes, it will help with attracting a more diverse talent pool, because obviously, if you can hire people who are not within your current, you know, headquartered city, for example, then you're opening up and broadening out your talent attraction strategy. But, um, but also, it's becoming the expectation. And so I think COVID has accelerated that. There's no doubt about that. And also proven that we can hire talent who were not right here right now, and could be anywhere in the world, depending on obviously, time zones, and the barriers that might come with that. But yeah, I think that the the lived experience, and what organizations have, by policy, really important that they match now, so we're seeing more and more organizations put out there that they've updated their parental leave policy. So it's a way of removing labels such as primary and secondary carer. That really is a strange concept anyway, parents or parents, and everyone's just as important in the parenting life. And organizations are announcing and proud to say, you know, we're not with gender equal approach, no, sort of this, you know, you're more important than you as far as parenting goes. And that's what the next generations are expecting, as well as this sort of work from, you know, we can have a flexible work approach policy, and they need to the organization's culture will be known for it. So, yes, the talent attraction and retention is really important. I was just going to say on that point, though, I guess one of the things that I'm seeing from the work that you're doing is there's this certification tied to family friendly workplaces. And so is that is that? Is that aspirational for a lot of organizations? Is that hard to achieve? Like, how do you ensure that that certification is met and upheld? Yeah, okay, great. We've only just introduced this launched it literally made this year. Okay, we've been working on it for a couple of years partnered with UNICEF, Australia on that, as well as a number of strategic partners. But we, there this, this is sort of, obviously there are baseline standards that organizations need to make in terms of policy, and practices that support the policy. And so the experience that goes with, for example, parental ease, or flexible work, but there is also a broad range, you know, right, sort of right from the beginning of the journey, right through to being best practice, leading employer, you know, employer of choice. When an organization will be certified, not only do they have those baseline sort of policies and practices in place, but they've also committed to an action plan for two years, to continually building the family friendly workplace culture. And so they'll help you have gaps, no one's perfect, and no organization is perfect yet, and there'll be gaps on what organizations could be doing. And they have endorsed an action plan to say we commit to we fly the flag, we want people to know, we want to attract talent, we want to retain people who have family responsibilities. And we will continually get better at this, you know, and then two years later, obviously, so we ran a national working family survey to get the baseline data for this in 2019, which we're running again this year for six and a half 1000 responses in 2019. And, and, you know, hopefully, hoping to get that if not more, again, to have sort of where we've shifted. And it'll be interesting to see given COVID has happened in that time. And, and so that will give us more data, and continually sort of elevate and shift and move with the times as it comes to the future of work as it comes to how we support families. So that's fantastic. I mean, it sort of seems to be like, you know, sort of 9000 certification, so you have to go through, you know, certain levels to meet it. And I'm guessing that you'd have to go through the same reassessment every year to look where the deficiencies are, what you're looking at that action plan every year, the certification is every two years. And the action planning revisiting that every year to go right, what traction Have you made, and what can we reprioritize for the year ahead. And so on the attraction side of things for potential employees. COVID has definitely taught us the example of that she has a role that is Sydney based. She's obviously lives in Melbourne, and is successfully managing that. I think COVID really taught us that that is totally possible. It obviously saves cost on going and buying a new or renting a new property if your team is growing. So I think there's a lot of multiple benefits that come from that. What I was going to ask is now now this certification, once companies start to get this in place, will will we see this in advertising? So unlike a Sikh ad, where they put it out there and the ad where they put on their LinkedIn profile? How will companies actually really lean on that? To attract and retain? Yeah, they will? That's exactly right. So there is, of course, the logo that, you know, we want to see attached to job ads to, you know, company signatures, to websites, etc. Just to really continue to inspire and lead other organizations to want to do the same, because that's the whole point of it, right? Those who are already doing it. Great. Now, we want those who are not doing it, to start thinking about it, which is the power of the PR machine out there. But But look, I think the other thing that I have noticed is that companies already are putting this on their company benefits pages. So have a look on the careers pages. And you'll see we have a flexible work approach. We have a gender equal parental leave policy, we offer, you know, 16 weeks paid parental leave. And a lot of this is already a really intrinsic and important part of what people are looking for in choosing an organization that they're going to work for. So it's it's this kind of next step of that it's saying, you know what we this we know this is important to people, and we're committed to it. Well, here's the here's our proof that we're committed to this. Yeah, I think the certification is going to be really important for a lot of employers because I know you know, going through experience of having working full time and having raising two children, when you went through that whole journey of entering the workforce and then going through that change of life. You know, it's you look at employers who say those things Some say and do some walk the walk and some say and don't do. And so the certification I think will bring a greater level of comfort to employees to know that they're actually an employer of choice so to speak, and that they're delivering on those commitments that they put in the job ads. Right. So yeah, yeah. I mean, that's it. There's one thing 10 policy, yeah. Oh, no, that's, that's just like service. Yeah, correct, then it's about what are the practices that go around that? That's the policy. And then it's about, and we know, this managers and their enabled experience understanding, you know, how much do they know about the policy, how to support their people through those major life moments. And, and that can vary. And we know that people work for their managers a lot of the time, and depending on that experience, that that can have a big influence on whether or not you stay with an organization. And so ensuring that managers understand what is needed to support people with family responsibilities, and keeping that caregiving conversation open. Because that, again, is what's something COVID gave as a gift was it opened up the caregiving conversation, you know, suddenly we were all talking about our family lives in a way that potentially we hadn't before. And and so let's keep that conversation open and going. And then, you know, we can have a bit more of an empathy lead management culture. Gary, I think that you obviously have the stats, I certainly don't, but I'd imagine there'd be quite a number of women who don't return to the workforce. Because obviously, they take maternity leave, or there might have been a second round of maternity leave. Do you think having these, this sort of certification and these policies in place will encourage people to return to work? Not necessarily sooner, but just return to work? Full stop? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, big missing piece of the gender equality conversation to date has been, let's talk about men, let's talk about where men play a role in taking parental leave, working flexibly, you know, the more sort of dads that have the opportunity to take, however long is the pay parental leave that enables partners or, you know, women to go back to the workforce, but also gives them an opportunity to get involved in early childhood, which they haven't had before. And a lot of a lot of men do want that. And there has been policy prevention on that men and partners. You know, it depends on the policy setup. So yeah, I think absolutely, you know, this is, this is going to help get, certainly women back into the workforce earlier if they want to, and enable more return to work in itself, but also just the Korea break issue. And the financial break issue that we face, that's going to be a little bit more equalized, as, as this becomes a bit more of an equal, certainly the organizations that have removed the labels on parental leave. Everyone just takes you know, so you know, the same amount of parental leave, paid parental leave, it is still women who are taking the extended, you know, period, in the majority of cases. But over time, you know, this is going to shift as we've seen in other countries around the world. I'm hearing you mentioned, support for managers, and being a HR practitioner, myself, my mind went to around how, you know, I can better support my main stakeholders. And so I wonder whether, you know, outside of the accreditation, is there anything that, you know, your organization does to equipped managers, thinking support or services that can help them kind of understand what's, how to put these how to put these actions into motion? And I guess not even just limited advantages, but also around how how HR managers can also put those commitments that are in their job ads and their policies into action. Yeah, yeah. I mean, managers is such an important part of the whole conversation, he know how much, you know, managers influence, you know, the work experience that people have. And so, yes, of course, our organization has a big emphasis on the role of the manager. And we have, you know, an online training services, we deliver webinar training, you know, forums for leaders. We work with employee network groups internally and ensure that leader sort of role models and stories are shared, so that because obviously, the more that is shared from the top, that will influence the culture as it goes down. So whether it's someone who has a caregiving role, or working flexibly, you know, just really, you know, showing good examples of leaders and sharing that internally is really important and consistently ensuring that every manager has the same amount of input. formation on how to support the people with family responsibilities, no matter what that is, whether it be parental enriches a really cool need, but also, caregiving, and you know, domestic violence and early pregnancy loss, and still, you know, all of these different sort of impacts that we have whilst we're working. And, you know, it's difficult to just continue on, I think managers need to be aware of all the things that impact on our work lives, and just keep that caregiving conversation open. So obviously, our mission is to consistently get that information to managers to enable them. And same for HR, you know, teams, of course, our core partners are obviously HR, HR teams, and I'm from an HR background myself as well. And and yeah, I mean, we're just an extension of HR teams, really, to help on this whole topic. You touched on earlier in the discussion just about how, you know, there's old school managers who need their time sitting in front of them to feel like they're working. And the reality is, they could be sitting on the other side of the office watching cat videos, and you bought up, you know, shirking from home, which I loved. I haven't heard of that one. So that's a good. I'm been inspired by that. I'll definitely use it working from home. But I think that, you know, it's always been of interest to me is how productive people actually are. And I asked this question, you know, to multiple multiple managers and business owners and individuals, just, you know, how many productive hours do you really think people have in a day when it comes into lunch that comes into coffee breaks, and it comes into Korean conversations, and all those sort of things? So So if we're looking at how many productive hours are there in a day? Do you have any any sense of maybe you actually have the stats behind it? How many productive hours there actually are with people in the office? And does that change for working from home perspective? Because there isn't, you know, someone coming up to your desk asking for this or isn't being stopped on the way to the bathroom? I don't know, you know, that sort of stuff. Yeah. I mean, what I love on this topic is the case studies of the four day working week, where businesses, you know, I think the first one was in New Zealand, where a study was done on the whole workforce, and we weren't, you know, they moved into four day working week, it was accounting firm, wasn't it? Yeah. and productivity, it was, the business was evidence to increase. And so I think it's like, in terms of the question of how many hours Does someone have productive that varies, because I can tell you, as a working mom, when I was pre, you know, pre babies, my work day was longer, but less productive, and I had the freedom of time to go and have those coffees and the extended lunches, and maybe around in the middle of the day. But when you've got to get like a commercial for working moms, like nine to drop off and you leave it, you know, 445, because you got to do pickup, you've only got like, you're so productive in those hours. And so I think it varies for everyone. And everyone has their individual nature. But I do think that's the point, right, is that nowadays, what we've opened up the opportunity for is individual needs. And so, you know, people want the option to work from home, at least a portion of the time. And we know all the surveys, right started where all the surveys are saying that 95% of people want to have the option to have the you know, work from home or anywhere for a portion of the time. Whether that be one or two days a week, for example, people now look at going into the office as a collaboration opportunity as a meeting, you know, time to see team, you know, teammates, have strategic discussions, you know, it's it's productive time where we can get together, brainstorm, you know, strategic, you know, all those sorts of things. Not necessarily going to the office, I've heard lots of people say, Well, I just wanted to the office, and I sat at my desk all day. So what's the point of that? I may as well have just done that. At home, I didn't need to catch a train and do a commute. You know, all those things. And yeah, so I think that is the point individual needs is now what managers have to equip themselves for. It's challenging, but that is the reality of the future of work. was thinking about you know, the entire I keep coming back to accreditation, but I find it so fascinating because I know it's a it's a really good driver for putting these things into practice. And I love that there's a baby in the background or a child while you're talking about it. That's perfectly Yes. show my kids it would have been quite well. You know, can I just quickly touch on something there? Sorry, Karen to your sentence. I was at my brother's wedding in Italy. And he was in a little small town called setting the camera and all the kids were running around. And the parents I think there were the Australian parents trying to keep their kids quiet and the priest said, No, you know, we should be celebrating. This is what we're here for. You know, we If the kids were here for the family, we love that. And that was beautiful. And so that's just Sorry, just just leading on from where you were going. And it's so true. You know, let the kids go in the background. And don't be embarrassed about it. Don't be embarrassed, you know, that decades. Like the reminds me of the viral video of the BBC journalist who was just the best. You have to say it was a little toddler. It's two years old. Oh, yeah, it was a COVID. And he was trying to do a news report. And he was like, yeah, it was live live TV, his child or toddler around, sort of, you know, maybe three or four year old came into the room. And he was trying very hard and sort of pushing her away and going go away, and then the little baby rocks in and then the mother runs in and grabs them all. He sort of tries to stay out of the camera view. And she says everyone would be like, fine, but bring them in, and then they'll go. Yeah, the guy thought of it. Hey, just I focused. He didn't even really flinch. It was amazing. I've just googled it. I've got it up. Finish the conversation first. Jamie, then you can watch Yeah, yeah, exactly. Don't worry, I won't be watching on my side. So anyway, man. And I thought Now my question was, it was going to more of an international view, I guess. I mean, we all being that we you know, live and work in Australia, we can all relate to how, you know, parents at work culturally, works quite well for Australia. But if I think about some of especially in, in some of our neighboring countries in the APAC region, culturally, you know, the, you know, there might be a nanny or carer that comes into the home and does a lot of that, that caring, or, or they're culturally, it's just not as widely accepted, whether is a job working family. And so having that need for that accreditation, or that push for a family flexible work environment probably isn't as required, but it is as strong a push for, for an employee, but have yet so I wondered whether, you know, the International side is something you guys are looking at, and and how you're tackling that kind of from a from the perspective of how it's not so widely accepted or needed. Yeah, that's it's true. The carrier culture, massively varies. And as we know, the Kara cultural is, is really well embedded in, in certainly in some, you know, the Asian headquarters, Singapore, in Hong Kong, for example. And so, we have built this for Australia at this point, because our data is Australian based data. And we've partnered with UNICEF, Australia, and so you know, their standards as well. But absolutely, the questions on this have been, okay, well, can this apply to like I run the APAC region? Can I apply this outside of Australia? What about New Zealand? But well, of course, this this certification for you will be for Australia, however, of course, the standards can be applied in other countries. We have recently spoken with a number of countries that have got all that looks interesting, you know, Taiwan was one of them, France is another. And, and so we've definitely looking at the international market and plan to roll out, you know, when the time is right to other countries, the conversation in the APAC region is interesting, because the COVID, you know, working from home environment has meant that, again, a lot of parents who traditionally have very long hours because they do you have the carers at home, have seen their children a lot more than they would have otherwise and have started to see that that is actually quite a nice thing. And even if it just means having a lunch break, and the kids might be there or whatever it has been, they've had extended lockdowns in many countries. So, yeah, I think that that conversation, I think we're gonna see it shift. I do think that, you know, as it's as it will shift globally, I think we're gonna very much see this shift in, you know, in APEC in particular, it has been shifting, it's been a real wellbeing focused conversation, you know, the conversations around families, how do we support parents and carers well being, because they are, you know, under, you know, long hours, a lot of pressure, sort of different demands than we have here in Australia. Every country has its own set of demands, but I do think we're gonna see a shift again, now we're sticking with the international theme. I'm more thinking obviously, from overseas foreign nationals working in Australia, or in other countries who don't have the benefits afforded to them that is local Australian citizens or permanent residents. So Australia, for example, obviously, they'll have they different programs in different countries. So I was just wondering if if you've had any thought around that or if there's been any boots on policy or how overseas for nationals who don't have benefits are treated with Compared to the locals, do they get any preferential treatment? Or has there been consideration? Or is there that may not have yet come to the front? for the for the conversation? That's a very company specific question. In my experience, I think, you know, every organization does approach this a little bit differently. But on the whole, it still defaults back to the legislation of the country that the person is employed in, I think, and I, you know, I'm not close enough to this topic, I suppose to probably be able to speak with authority, but you know, sort of, if you've, if you outsource to functional, or you've got a team working in another country, but supporting Australia, I'm not saying the the, except for an organization's where policies of moving to a global position. So on the topic of parental leave, for example, we look at, right, let's roll this out globally, everyone should be entitled to this, it doesn't matter what the culture of the country is, at that point in time. And that's sometimes where some resistance might come in, as well to offering big numbers of weeks, like 26 weeks, for example, that is not the case. And culturally, in many Asian countries, or in the US, for example. And so, you know, there might be resistance on going that far. Because whilst that might be leading in Australia, it's just too far to do that globally, and sort of bring it down and, and, you know, find a happy medium that everyone globally can benefit from, which I think there's a lot of value in and, you know, employees really sort of value that. So global policy changes, I do see, but when you've got sort of local country laws. Okay. Carrie, you mentioned earlier around organization to already living and breathing and doing the family friendly workplaces? Have you found in particular sectors that have been supporting this concept and getting behind you guys initially? Or is it a good cross section across across the Australian workplaces? Well, I mean, I will say, of course, financial services and professional services for us were early adopters, you know, sort of a decade ago, and probably further along the journey than some other industries. But for these days, it is, you know, all and sundry, we see really small organizations from 20 people, you know, looking at this and going, how come we have a policy because Do we need a policy and there's only 20 of us, but we want to make sure our people have, you know, access to the best. And then we want them to know that we support their families, right through to, you know, 60,000 employees and, and everything in between, across all the industries. What I do notice is that industries move in waves. So if one leader in an industry, like an insurance company, will sort of QB from our perspective in insurance as a leader, then others will go look to, you know, to them to go, okay, what's the best practice and saying, you know, in the tech industry, a couple do it, they go pharmaceuticals, you know, and this sort of, so that's one of the great things about doing certifications is that the latest can demonstrate how to do it and then inspire others in the same industry. And then all the employees at the end result of benefiting from this are the parents and the carers out there. We just need leaders to show how it's done. And then, you know, others will follow. That's sort of the way I've seen it go, a thought, or something I suppose I'm personally experiencing, is my workweek has changed. My workday is changed. It hasn't gone that traditional nine to five, Monday to Friday. And COVID has certainly accelerated, you know, I suppose influenced how, how I operate? Do you think that people's work week will change to cater for that? So what I'm saying is, Will people start to work on a Saturday? Will they start to work on a Sunday? Will they have work after bedtime? I mean, can you see that changing as well? Because what I'm sort of imagining if I have a certain amount of work to do in one day, but I have the carrying duties, and I have you know the other parts that going Will my work day and therefore my work week change? Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny hearing me say that because I'm thinking Have you always worked in the app the great outdoors? Probably not at all. I've always been stuck in an office that was you know, nine 930 10 o'clock at night so it's Yeah, it's a whole different change. Yeah, it's not just about the the hours and when you do the hours it's about where you do the hours and you know, sometimes I do sit outside now on my balcony in the front and and do you know a video call whereas and just being able to have some sunshine in the middle of the day in the middle of winter in a sunset, you know, that's such a nice thing to be able to do and so it's just about any time it's about anywhere. And, and also different people's, you know, physical sort of productivity differs as well like some people are really great morning people. That is not me. I need to go for a walk for some people Really awesome at midnight again, that's not me either I'm somewhere middle, and to allow people to be able to work when they work at their best, so you are a morning person get started at 4am with our marketing Head of Marketing she is she's at it from 4am every day and but she's, you know, she's gonna finish early, and then some of us because that's her, you know, sort of productivity. And so I think there's all of that I think everyone needs to and back to what I was saying earlier managers, you know, really need to be open to the individuality of their teams, because we'll get the best out of everyone, if we allow them to work, when they're at their best, where they can work their best. And there needs to obviously be some parameters around that, in terms of collaboration and sort of seeing our team members, and also when. Yeah, I mean, Jamie, you've kind of asked that question in a, in a current day context, that my mind kind of goes a little bit further into the actual future in when offices, you know, do start to open up. You know, there are some expectations from organizations, not only from their own policies, perspectives, but there might be immigration expectations, excuse me around people being actually in the office. I know, some visa types and gemi are probably more better to comment on this. I know simply the types in the US where you know, you are tied to a location and there's a requirement from a residency or work permit perspective that you're in the office for a certain amount of days of the week. So, you know, I wonder what the typical work week will look like when the world is safe, again, so to speak. And there's an expectation or a requirement for us to physically be in the office around, you know, your, your marketing person at 4am, you just got to be able to get into the office at 4am, you know, like, or are we just going to find that, you know, we all do so much chopping and changing, that we burn ourselves out, because I look on I personally, doing a lot of that flipping between contexts, does become quite fatiguing in ourselves. And we might be creating an another bigger issue of fatigue down the track as well post post COVID. So I didn't know whether you had any views on it. It's a bit of an extension of repeat of Jamie's question. But, you know, what would the typical working week look like once all the offices are open, so to speak? Surely not Saturday, Sundays? Well, let's hope not. But now, I think the one of the main things that the research is showing is just that people want to be able to work from home for a portion of time. So to your point about you don't want to have this constant every week looks different, you don't quite know everyone needs their own routines. But it's just that not everyone necessarily now will have the nine to five routine all at the same time. Because that is from the reading I do and the research, I think that that is dead, I do think that we absolutely need to expect that people will want some time that is theirs that is flexible in the way that they work. That's not to say that they won't be office time. And it might be you know, 60 or 70% of the time, but there is a portion of time where you still get to retain this. And people say I get my I get most of my work done when I'm working from home, that's when I get everything I get on top of it all. And my most productive when I'm at home. Because when you're in the office, you are you're talking to colleagues and that that in itself has its own value, of course, from social perspective, but also from a collaboration and, you know, ideas and perspective innovation. But yeah, I think that we will find a new routine. And I do not think it'll be 100% of the time in the office. And I think people start and finish times will shift as well, I think we'll see, maybe not 4am. But maybe, you know, eight 7am a bit more regular there might have been the odd people did that before, but now we'll see a bit more of that. And later finishes, sort of seven o'clock finishes. And so, you know, extension of the hours, not everyone doing exactly the same thing at the same time that will help with confusion, public transport, you know, sort of issues, and that helps the environment. So, yeah, I think that's what you need to be prepared for. So just sticking with Karen's future, which is the post COVID reality, when things sort of, you know, shift back to norm, which I agree with you i don't think they ever, ever will. And how do companies assess or determine what you're working with? You know, this net book, what's my love language? I mean, you probably get one going, what's my work language? I mean, how do you it? Did the companies already go out there and start doing surveys or start figuring out what their individual people? What would they do? Do employees actually operate like, and I'm like you I mean, we've got people who want to start at seven and other people who want to work to 12 at midnight, you know, and that's, that's how that's just their own body clocks, their own rhythm. Our companies actually starting to employ questioning. or trying to find out how that fits in. And then once they've got that rhythm of the person, how do they that fit into an actual working shedule? up or, you know, working on output? Yeah, there's been so much research done by organizations on on their people on their flexible work needs. Karen, I can see you nodding you probably know this. And certainly pulse surveys, and what are you checking in? Because all the flexible work policies are being updated and looked at and reviewed? And does it match the new world that we're in? And they've got to make sure that they've listened to their people before they do that? So yes, yes, with our clients, absolutely. Running lots of different engagement surveys and pulse surveys to just ensure that they understand that what the people are expecting, because they'll have a talent issue if they don't get it right. And from there, once the policy is sort of, they think, you know, okay, we think this is what our people want, then it's talking to the managers, and then it gets down to managers go, but I need real clear guidelines, because this is really hard to manage, how can I manage everyone wants something different need to put in the policy? Exactly. And that's really challenging. I think that's what HR teams are facing at the moment is, it's not so simple. Now, as these are the roles, you know, like, every manager will have to create a different structure for their team. And they may be able to sort of mandate that some days, everyone has to be in the office for particular meetings, but then we've got flexibility on the other days. I think once, you know, officers have returned to being open fully. And a lot of you know, there's a lot of projects out there about real estate, do we need as much space anymore? We know that 20 to 30% of the time people might not be here. So what do we do about that? So that conversation that's happening as well? Yeah. Hoping or being locked down? Yeah, I agree with that. Korean. Yeah, I was nodding my head, because they, I guess, organizations also need to be careful, if they're asking all these questions, they need to do two things, they need to take that data and acknowledge that they've received it, because it you know, it's like, there's nothing worse than getting, you know, 10 surveys in any portion of your life, right and going, I'm glad I did that it went into the ether, it went nowhere in it, it has shown no productivity. So organizations need to acknowledge have received it, and then also do something with that data and turn it into something real. Right. And I guess, you know, what we're talking about today is a good example of that. I wondered whether you could go into a little bit of detail, give us an example, maybe around, you know, whether it's this, whether it's following your guidelines or following or adopting these certification, how companies can use that to support families, you know, potentially sick, let's say, for an example of two parents, or single parents working a very senior a demanding job, which, you know, makes it difficult, I guess, for for dedicating that chopping and changing all that time to their kids. You know, what? What support does this program provide to those organizations? And then what trickles down to the employees in a support form? Yeah. So in that instance, where and then it's certainly not uncommon now, where you've got two parents, both in demanding jobs and, you know, sort of kids that need them, too. That's your other demanding job, as we know, what's the role of the organization in that instance. And I think more and more, it doesn't really matter whether the, the role is a very senior role, because different levels of jobs can be very demanding. What organizations more and more are acknowledging and are doing is looking at ways to support childcare, for example, whether that be financially or whether that be putting in some kind of and lightly virtual vacation care program, even in school holidays, sometimes with after school programs. Or maybe it's through just, you know, we know that your kids matter, essentially. And it might be creating a kid friendly space in the office so that the kid doesn't feel like they're not welcome in the office. And there's a lot more of that conversation occurring about how can we create spaces that are family friendly within an office, which will also encourage people to spend time in the office. It's, it's about looking at the well being needs as well. So knowing that demand to people in demanding jobs with you know, young kids, probably looking after themselves is somewhere right down the bottom of that list. And so creating some time during work hours to talk about family, to share experience with colleagues on what's going on, sometimes just extend it, you know, a problem shared is a problem halved. And, you know, creating these employee network groups where people have the opportunity to talk to other parents and carers in the organization and allowing that conversation in the workplace, not sort of, you know, just pretending that when we're at work that's working the rest of your life. for yourself to sort out once you get home, but just, you know, allowing her to be to be their full selves that really helps with well being. And, you know, acknowledging that the pressures and the competing demands on on parents and carers is of a unique type, and giving some really specialized well being sort of support to parents and carers, you know, in its own form, and also education. So the education forums that our clients give their, their people, you know, it takes it means they don't have to go and do it outside of work time, they've, they've been given a little bit of space during work hours to get educated on digital wellbeing for kids, like, we need to know how to, you know, screen time with kids, what are we doing about it? Give them some time, during the rec date and learn that because, you know, otherwise, they've got to do it outside of work? Totally, it's really hard. So let's acknowledge that. And it's not just about parental leave, it's about the whole thing, teenagers that face, it's hard to. So let's give you some time on this during workouts. So there's just so many different ways of looking at how organizations are supporting this. But the main thing is just acknowledging that there's competing demands and being open to the conversation about it. It's such a brave new world, isn't it? I mean, my head is spinning with all of you know, the things I'm thinking do I have? You know, what are our policies? Do we have, you know, certification, obviously, not through you at this stage. But I'm wondering for our audience out there for the mobility practitioners, or the HR practitioners or business owners who are thinking, hang on, I want to start to get some of these things in place. Where did they start? Like, where they was wondering? They can go, I'm guessing through your organization, is probably where it's at? Yeah, I mean, that's gonna be my only answer, right? Which is being a true self. Yeah, exactly how yourself? Yeah, I mean, really, I don't have another answer. Because like, we this is what we live and breathe, you know, how organizations build a family friendly culture. And we have an employer membership, which is really just a huge sort of strategic partnership with HR teams and business leaders on what is the baseline that you need to do, we can guide on best practice policy and, you know, practices and leader enablement, you know, throughout this conversation, so, yeah, I'm not going to say go anywhere else other than us, because that's very fair. I mean, you've sort of done all the hard work and heavy lifting over the last 15 years. And it's good, because, as I said, my head sort of spinning, I was thinking, as you're saying, Do we mystic violence policy? I don't know. I mean, you know, just just the little things like that to understand. And I agree, I think keeping people in your environment to say, Hey, you know, I get you and I get your needs. And I go, I get your anxieties here. I've actually, I can hook you up with an organization who can give you the information I can direct you to that. I think it's it's invaluable. Right? Yeah. And, and if we're not the experts, gosh, we're not the experts on at all, you know, then we partner, we've selected our partners that we refer our organization's on to in the different areas of need. So it's, yeah, it's so important. There's, I mean, there is so many different elements to what makes up a family friendly culture and so many different layers. But yeah, I can say that more and more, as time goes by, and the years go by, it's what talent will be expecting. And I know you Jamie said, you know, his head spinning. And I'm sure a lot of people who are watching this, this podcast also doing the same thing. Do we have this? Do we have that? So you're right, I think having that conversation and establishing that baseline internally is the best place for them to start. Thank you so much for your time today, Curie. It's been very educational. I really wish this kind of certification thing was around, you know, 10 years ago when I was going. But you know, better late than never. Right? So thank you for bringing that on behalf of all the parents. Absolutely. Yeah. I echo Karen's comments, I think that it's been such a such a wonderful insight into what is possible, and what the future could and, and should look like. I really think that you know, employers will embrace it. I think that it sounds like it's gonna be better for everyone better for wellbeing better for, you know, profitability of the business better for retention. It sounds like there's no real downside to move in this direction. And we could probably think another thing we could make COVID for is a good kick in this direction. So but more importantly, thank you so much for your time. It's been fantastic. Thank you. Thank you both for the conversation that was just really awesome to talk to you. Thank you. Alright, see ya.