As Director of People & Culture for Hays plc Australia & New Zealand, Natalie’s role is to lead the People and Culture team to execute the Diversity & Inclusion, change management, leadership capability, recruitment, training, learning, and development programs across the ANZ region. Reporting to the Managing Director of Hays ANZ, Natalie is a part of the Australia & New Zealand Management Board and contributes to the direction and strategy of Hays Australia & New Zealand to achieve business objectives.
With a range of clients across many different industries including those who are experiencing a critical shortage of available talent, Natalie provides us in the last episode with some excellent insights:
- How organisations have pivoted when they traditionally rely on having staff on-site
- Dealing with critical staff shortages as a result of border closures, vaccination reluctance, and talent scouting
- Accepting recruitment has to change by hiring on no-experience and implementing clear pathways and training programs to improve retention
As Director of People & Culture for Hays plc Australia & New Zealand, Natalie’s role is to lead the People and Culture team to execute the Diversity & Inclusion, change management, leadership capability, recruitment, training, learning, and development programs across the ANZ region. Reporting to the Managing Director of Hays ANZ, Natalie is a part of the Australia & New Zealand Management Board and contributes to the direction and strategy of Hays Australia & New Zealand to achieve business objectives.
With a range of clients across many different industries including those who are experiencing a critical shortage of available talent, Natalie provides us in the last episode with some excellent insights:
- How organisations have pivoted when they traditionally rely on having staff on-site
- Dealing with critical staff shortages as a result of border closures, vaccination reluctance, and talent scouting
- Accepting recruitment has to change by hiring on no-experience and implementing clear pathways and training programs to improve retention
Hi, welcome to the working world. I'm Karen Mendez. I'm Jamie. And what an amazing episode we have for you today we have Natalie break, who is the director of people and culture from a and Zed pays JV Well, I think that the great thing about the show, I mean, you know, she's in recruitment, she's she's in France on the grounds, she understands what it's like to be putting workers into quiet sites. I mean, recruitment is busier than ever, which was a bit of a shock to me. There was a lot of really great takeouts, a lot of initiatives that going on that I don't think we've covered off in the show today on the show to date, you know, talking about lift and shift, making sure that they've got backups for 14 days out if people do come into close contact with COVID. Job splitting or company splitting. So there's, you know, there's just so much. Yeah, and I think the beauty of this is particularly like you said, she gets to see so many different industries, and the initiatives across all those industries, and how they're helping support that staff that have to be on site, those boots have to be on the ground. So I guess for me, one of the big takeaways, and one of her call outs and which I loved was completely confident was have a good AVP the end of the day, nothing else matters pretty much. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. All right, guys, enjoy. And a good one for you to get some takeaways from. Take care. No worries. Hi, and welcome to the working world. Hi, Jamie. Look at some It's going great. I'm still working at the back of my kitchen. So always, always good. It's the new normal. Your office looks amazing. I tell you that the big trap I think for working from home is avoiding the fridge. I don't know about you. But yes. You need to be disciplined. Let me tell you that. Yes. And that Welcome to the working world. Thank you. Yes, it's lovely to have you on board. And I'm really looking forward to the deck to excuse me to today's discussion. Especially because you and I you know spoken briefly before around some of the challenges of those industries. Where I guess for use of a better term boots on the ground is still required. And I know a lot of our recordings previously to date have looked at Mobile programs of work, remote working future of work. But I think we need to stop and acknowledge those industries that are that are challenged, and continue to be challenged on this never ending pandemic in relation to still being able to service their clients or service delivery around getting their people on site. And so I'm really looking forward to getting started. So I might just jump in, if that's okay with you. Let's go. So I wanted to know, you know, with your experience across a number of organizations, you know, the convention center and now with Hayes, how have you seen organizations that rely on having the people on site in person, pivot their business models, or adopt service delivery changes to meet the demands of their clients and products? Yeah, you know, it's a it's an interesting question, because, you know, like you were talking about before, not all industries, can that completely shift to a model of remote working and working from home, you know, there are jobs, particularly in the industries around trade and industries around hospitality, that just can cannot do their jobs from home. Right. So when we look at the stats in in Hays, and the amount of temporary staff, we're still, you know, I guess delivering for our clients, there is a there is a need to still have people on the ground and have, you know, you know, people operating in the offices or even in the mine mining sector or even banking, Funny enough, banking still requires people to be on site. So the way in which they've had to shift is, obviously there's this, you know, new world of hybrid. So you know, being adaptable to the new technology platforms that allow those jobs that can use technology as a way to connect and engage and do their job. But when you've got jobs like culinary and food and beverage and the hospitality sector in particular, you need people to still deliver that service on site for clients that will still come into those venues and require, whether it be takeaway or whether it be some level of service that is required face to face. So what we've had what we have to do is adapt to our style of service in the sense that we need to have really strong COVID safety safety management plans to allow people to come back into work because the health advice does say if you cannot do your job You know, you can go into site provided that it is safe. So having really robust safety management plans has been crucial, you know, the the increase of work health and safety frameworks, the the need to make sure that we are adapting to the social distancing measures, using space in a very different way. And the environment which we operate in, they needed to be shifted, and relooked at. And I think also, the fact that if you cannot find jobs for those people to do, and literally there is there is no work, it's about relocating those people into different jobs. So it's the diversification of skill, it's putting them on mobilization projects that you wouldn't typically see someone doing in that particular trade. So it's about the adaptability of skill, and being able to still retain those people, because we know that at some point, this will end and there'll be a war for talent, and we'll still need to have people doing those jobs back again. So just just on that net, I mean, I like probably a lot of other people have had, you know, time in hospitality. And I know that, you know, a busy kitchen is nice, you're up against each other, you're sort of swimming slipping past, what sort of things you say, as far as initiatives, how are businesses how boots on ground, businesses, actually making sure they still maintain social distancing, but in a busy environment. So you know, I think you've got to have the the shift in operational hours. So that that's obviously had to change quite a bit around how many people you have in the office at one given time. So there's no more rigid, you start at work at 830. And you finish at 530, there's had to be an I guess, an allowance to have a spate of hours change and the opportunity for people to come in at certain times to ensure that the volume and the capacity of your of your rooms or your space is confined to a smaller group. So that means you know, having to go back to the client and saying, look, we can't do it at this time, we're going to have to do it between these hours, because we can only allocate X amount of staff for that particular event or that venue. So it's about being again flexible to the hours in which we operate, but even travel so you know being very open to the fact that travel times need to shift and you know, your nominated start date, start date or stop time might need to be delayed or might need to be pushed back. So it's just about having those upfront discussions with, you know, with the clients to say that there needs to be some differing hours to allocate. Look, I think also, it's about being smarter and using that hybrid model. So you know, having a portion of your workforce, being able to like yourself, work remotely use technology as a way to still remain engaged and connected to the job that you're doing. But for those people that can't be able to prioritize those people to be in the office and knowing the critical roles that must be on site or must be out to conduct their their work. So, you know, there's a lot of, I guess, emphasis on, if you can't accommodate and you can't change the hours or you can't allow enough space for people to operate in. And then you have to stick to the testing the testing component and the encouragement of vaccination. So you know, particularly in the minds, that the use of that stronger language around encouragement of getting double vaccinated as quick as possible, feeling like you are safe and supportive whilst being on site is absolutely critical, because there is still work that needs to be done and projects are being delayed pushed back. And that has a you know, a much larger impact on on clients and business that needs to be conducted. Yeah, I guess one of the the main themes I kind of hear about that is, those protocols work really well, when you you're able to control the environment, right. And it's a static environment where people come in and out and you have protocols around it. My mind went to around and it came up when you said mining around, you know, those those flying fly out workers. Yeah, there's a component of travel, which is outside of the control of the organization or the employer. You know, I wondered whether in the end that takes its toll on individuals kind of be exposed to those more fluid situations and then moving into a structured organization be on site. And I wonder whether you had seen some support initiatives that maybe have been put in place, maybe across for example, the mining sector, where they have to continue to send their mobile staff through that kind of fly in fly out routine during the pandemic. Yeah, and look, you know, to your point that doesn't stop right there that is considered essential, and there is still a need for that FIFO process to to occur. And I think that the main thing is being able to give plenty of notice of when those projects take place so that you know families and those individuals can make the right I guess arrangements for themselves, but also Like their families around how they navigate the, you know, isolation protocols, the close contact potentially, and being able to really understand what is required prior to going on to the job. Because once they're on the job, they can't turn back. And they have to be there. And they have to follow the processes and the procedures. So it's having those upfront discussions a lot earlier on in the piece about acknowledging that these are the extra steps and the measures that you need to take, you need to allow X amount of time to set yourself up for success. And I think it's about you know, acknowledging the fact that there is still that element of fear, right. So not everyone wants to travel, people still are worried even if they are they've got their first vaccination, we see, you know, cases where people still are attracting the virus after one dose of vaccination. So it's about really applying the, you know, the principle of, you know, being reasonable and being fair. And, you know, if people feel still uncomfortable, it's about, you know, showing what, what safety measures you have in place to make sure that that work is still being able to, you know, to carry out to carry out for that client. But also knowing that not everyone's going to support that, and not everyone's going to want to do that. So it's about, you know, retaining them in some way, letting them take some leave using different options to retain them. Because, you know, as I said, this will this period will end and, and we'll need to have those staff on the ground ready to go. And you're right, that it's such a juggling act, isn't it? I mean, oh, juggling, it's a real balancing act? How do you balance through the mental health issues with productivity, because obviously, by the sound of it, if these projects can't be have the maximum number of staff, then obviously, it's going to mean that they can achieve so much within a specific time. I think you make a really good point on the education and notice, just, I suppose Have you got some examples of it really saying, come together and do this really well, and maybe just share with me snippets of what the best practice things that you've witnessed, you know, with the teamwork and the education and the notice, yeah, look, I think it does come down to the training programs that you run in this period, right? So there needs to be an emphasis on constant training, learning and development programs that educate our staff to be open minded to, you know, lift and shift and have different ways of working and, you know, be agile, while still understanding that productivity and performance doesn't go away. So, you know, we take the example of our temps in haze, you know, they are going on to mining sites, they're going into, you know, operations that require them to be on the job, not not working remotely. So, you know, you need to be able to set them up for success around, you know, what training do they need before they get on site? What safety measures and procedures they need to be following? You need to also give them the resilience, you know, and that comes down to the mental health what what support services are you giving them in that respect to make sure that they are still connected, they do still feel like they've got one team behind them if they do struggle, particularly if they're told, you know, that they're getting on a job. And we've had instances where our attempts have shown up to a mining site, and then they've been said, you know, that there's a COVID case, and they need to go home? Right. So how do they deal with that? Do we pay them? Do we, you know, do we send them down? Do we keep them retained? Do we d mobilize them into another job? You know, what does that look like? So, you know, it is a juggling act, Jamie? And it's one that no cases ever the same? particularly how you manage the clients as well, because the clients expectation is that even if there is a case or you know, there's a short delay, they still need the job to continue. So you know, do you do again, try and find other safer ways to make that happen? Absolutely. So I think training is a big part of it, having you know, flexibility around your your staff and your casualisation and of your workforce needs to continue, you need to have greater volume. So as I said at the start, you know, we've increased our volume of temps because we know that potentially, we could have temps that are out for 14 days isolated because they close contact. So we need to have backups. So I think the best companies are having most stuff ready to go if those worst case scenarios happen. We're also seeing the mobilization projects take place to retain staff. So in the hospitality sector, you know, you've got people who still need to be retained, like shifts like food and beverage managers that aren't getting enough work. So allowing them to do multiple jobs, so they can still maintain an income and being flexible and amenable to that. So there's lots of examples where companies are really going above and beyond to let their employees I guess, do things that they normally wouldn't be allowed to do in a normal setting. But you know, we're all still learning and we're all still trying to navigate this very uncertain and unstable world that we operate in. Yeah, you raise an interesting point around cross training and net I've seen you I've seen you speak before, in relation to this subject around some really innovative ways that you've led around taking staff during pandemics and Yeah, kind of repurpose their skills. Whereas they probably never thought they were going to do. But I wonder whether, you know, that's obviously one challenge that that organizations are seeing, and they're thinking outside the box around how to do that. I wondered whether you could talk to if you could talk to us about what are some of the other I guess, either new or still engineering challenges that organizations are facing when it comes to overcoming inspirati? Sorry, providing support to their mobile workforce? Yeah, look, you know, and I think I think there are lots of innovative ways, right, and we talk about the mobilisation projects, the flexibility and the shifting of, of hours, and, you know, being agile, but I think, you know, there is still an element of social interaction being impacted around social isolation, people feeling disconnected from the organization, people feeling that the use of technology still doesn't give them the support that they need, particularly when they're out on site, and they've got boots on the ground, and they're on their own, what, what can you be doing around communication, and still engaging and motivating your people? So, you know, I think that's going to be a constant chat challenge, you know, you, you still require face to face interaction in in some of those industries, particularly in the hospitality industry, where, you know, it's, it's, you can put them on a mobilization project, but it's not what they love to do, right. They're passionate about the field and the specialists, you know, activity that they perform when they can't do that. So, you know, how do you engage them, I think there is still that challenge for companies to retain this stuff. And I think that if there was work elsewhere, in their same specialism they would go they would jump, right. So there's a fear of, you know, turnover increasing, and, you know, having a attraction issues even, I also think that there's still that fear of putting people in danger, because we know that as a, you know, an outsourcing organization where we're putting temps in those, those mining sites, you never know, 100%, that they're COVID safe plans are watertight, you never know whether their practices are, you know, to the standard that your organization is, so it's always gonna, you know, you've got to have that balancing act, where you are still dealing with an element of risk. And therefore your attempts may feel that way, or your contingent labor force mate may feel that way. I think having to isolate and that for that 14 days is quite difficult financially for people, but also just, you know, being able to have to regularly test that's not easy for people. So that's still a constant challenge for individuals. I think there's an increase in workers comp claims as well, not just from a physical standpoint of view, but also from a mental health point of view. So we talked about the stress that COVID and the pandemic has, obviously, given a lot of people. So how do you provide the right support mechanisms for those people that are obviously struggling around, you know, stress claims in the workplace? And how do we, how do we manage that moving forward? I think there's also that resistance of a portion of, you know, team members and or employees that still don't want to get vaccinated, right, we still have a portion of people. And we've got to, we've got to really be sensitive around, you know, encouragement, rather than it being mandatory in a lot of organizations. We don't have all industries mandatory for vaccination. So we have to be flexible. And there's a challenge there around Well, if one client wants everyone to be vaccinated, but you as the client or the you know, the company that that employs them doesn't require that as a mandatory component. So it's juggling that. And I think the new legislation around casualization in the workplace, you know, in the workplace, so the use of casuals, being regular, and having to convert them to permanency is also proving challenges for organizations because before, they would just typically use Kegels, and not feel like they would need to convert them to permanent, whereas now the legislation has changed, and it becomes a lot harder for us to use casuals on a regular basis. So having to navigate that is also traveling is also traveling. Sorry, I would say that the interstate travel in the FIFO arrangement is also still a challenge. We still have restrictions where people can't travel unless it's essential. So there is that delay in projects there is that delay in potential productivity. So we're starting to see that that you know, even though there might be essential people able to work and travel and fly, there are others that still can't do that. So that has a cost implication around you know, the fact that we don't have everyone operating at 100% capacity still at this point. Something you mentioned there around the mandatory vaccinations, obviously that's that that conversation is coming I think to a to a head so to speak at the national level. And we're seeing that play out in lots of weed wonderful ways. I wondered whether you are getting a sense at this stage across you know, the multitude of sectors that you're you're seeing now there you have a sense of there's going to be a mass evacuation of one particular sector or people are going to say look, you know, as much as I love hospitality, I just can't do it anymore if they're going to make me get back to Nigeria. You get a sense for any industry in that way. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I and you know, let's take the hairdressing industry, for example. We've seen a lot of hairdressers become resistant and say, if we're not going to be hairdressers anymore, if they force us to be vaccinated, we don't want that we don't want to be that. So it's it's there is a fine line around, you know, industries that have not been told that it's mandatory. So obviously, when you've got aged care aged care is one and community Community Services, we do see a lot of our Tim's particularly say, particularly the younger generation, if I be honest, a saying, Well, we've got to get out of community services, because we're not willing to get vaccinated. So there is a little bit of resistance there. And organizations like the community aged care sector, you know, that the healthcare sector are still getting resistance, and there isn't a, you know, retention and attraction issue. And we need to be very mindful of that, that unless it is mandated by the health authorities, then, you know, you're gonna get some people that decide to opt out and try different industries. Yeah. Which it was about something you were speaking about earlier as well. I mean, you take that and that then collides with a skill shortage already. I mean, the yesterday I think about prior to this conversation, we're talking about shifts, yeah, and being a war on talent. So you know, if you take it, if you take the kind of the vaccination mandatory piece, then you take it take a skills, a skill shortage in one particular thing. I mean, that just spells disaster in my mind from a talent perspective. So even even worse, add to that you also don't have the overseas travelers who are a huge portion of our market for, you know, for the hospitality industry, so they can't get back into the country, there's no visa workers that were able to utilize, and they are, you know, so skilled in that area. So you've got the mobility issues where people can't travel, you've got the issues around people resistant to vaccination, and then you've got the war for talent, because there, there's a shortage in the market of skill. So you've got those three things to compete with. So you've got to have a pretty good EAP as an organization to attract that talent, but so scarce in the market right now. I'm gonna throw in the fact that there's only three and a half 1000 people went into Australia currently, every week, so therefore, there's just not I mean, we had over 100,000 backpackers leave, we have 100,000 students and labor a lot of them with it, you know, I suppose the fiber of the hospitality industry, so that's all gone. And then the replenish our stocks, we still got 35,000 Australians caught overseas, as you said before, temporary base in Canada, but this is this is suicide. It's the perfect storm. But you know, I'm not sure if it's perfect by any stretch of imagination. Yeah, no, it's your Ryan and and, you know, we're seeing that we're seeing that there is there is such an appetite for organizations to still recruit in this space. I mean, we are busier than ever, we have got more people knocking on our door saying we need to find talent, and we need it now. And everyone is in that same boat. So you know, we're having to work completely in overdrive and in very stressful period to try and find the right candidates. And they might not be the best candidates, you know, we've got to settle at this point, because we need bodies on the ground to do the work and to be productive, because performance will start to drop from both sides. on that. Oh, sorry, Jamie. No, no, go ahead, Jamie. I was just gonna say one thing we've spoken a fair bit about during this pandemic is burnout. And that's one thing I think I'm curious, get your thoughts. And as you said, you know, there's there's so many people you're working like crazy hospitalities working like crazy. How do we? How do you think that? You know, mobility managers can really address burnout, particularly in labor intensive? roles? Yeah, look, I think it's, it's a challenge for the mobile workforce, right. And obviously, you've got to review that, you know, the first step is to review your mobility policies and procedures, right. And to, as I said, allow that flexible and adaptable, I guess, provision in there that you will have changed in circumstances beyond your control. So you need to allow for a contingency plan for that. And that may mean a you know, we used to have a you know, in the hospitality industry a a mobilization B team, where they would be deployed if potentially, you're 18 couldn't get off the ground, right? So it's about having a backup and it's about having, you know, I guess a strength and a buffer to what you already have in place and that may mean more investment more time or money, but you know, you need to you need to start thinking about that because like I said, it's out of your control. And so the more you have around contingency and around flexibility and to allow for those unforeseeable circumstances, the better. I think you need to do a local source of your talent. So you need to review the talent you've got, you need to understand what retention strategies you have in place as an organization. You know, do you have a strong AVP? Do you have a strong reward and recognition program? You know, there's a lot of talk around recognition and the fact that people want to feel like they're still valued, and they still have purpose in their job. So it's more than just the job. And it's more than just the salary, they want to make sure that they're, you know, they're in an organization that focuses on their mental health and their well being. And so do you have well been practices and, and I guess, initiatives in place to make them feel supported during this period. So you know, mobility programs need to make sure that they are more attractive, they offer more benefits, they have, you know, still an opportunity to travel off site, but when you do travel off site, they need to have strong procedures and safety mechanisms in place. Yeah. It's interesting, because I sorry, the perfect storm is still swirling around in my head. It's a great term that I kind of wondered whether you were ahead of you trying to get in front of this kind of perfect storm scenario. Are you seeing organizations cottoned on to that's coming? And then therefore, it has there been a change or shift in approach to perhaps taking the jobs to the talent? And I guess, I mean, that that offshore perspective, because obviously, if we don't have the local talent here, and I know, from a boots on the ground perspective, that doesn't necessarily apply. But you know, is there a shift in in thinking and business strategy that you're seeing around taking that, taking that work and, and essentially, offshoring it and going to the boots on the ground, rather than bringing them in? It's so interesting that you say that, right? Because I was just having a conversation the other day, one portion of our business who, you know, we deal with banking, and as you know, a lot of our banking sector does offshore, right contact centers, and those contact centers are in India. Now, when India needs to shut down, those contact centers cannot operate, right. And so we have some challenges there. So what we're seeing actually in Australia at the moment in New Zealand, is that we're having to find local talent to fill those jobs and not use the offshoring industry. So we're not having to use India contact centers, we're having to deploy people locally on the ground to deal with those issues. And the backup plan is local. Correct? Interesting, okay. Yes. So it gives a very good opportunity for us, particularly in the recruiting world to show, you know, our local organizations like commbank, that maybe we can do it, maybe we can do it locally, as opposed to, you know, we need to show the benefit, we need to show the service offering and the value added piece. Because we you know, we might not get back to that offshore, I guess, strategy of deploying contact centers all over the world where we, you know, if we can do it here in Australia, we can do it. But again, there's that war for talent. And we've got to make sure that if we're going to do that locally, we're able to source those people very quickly. You know, manufacturing? I mean, that's a classic example. Right. Like that's had a resurgence three COVID. Because obviously love the stuff that isn't getting manufactured overseas is enjoying a local resurgence. You know, I think is great. But I think that mathematically, I mean, the numbers first the jobs, that's the real challenge, isn't it? Yeah. But the one thing I was curious about, I mean, you spoke before about offering more concessions and benefits or recognition. And I'm thinking more things like today, right? Yeah. Do you think that once we started, we can tap people to overseas people start to capitalize on the training and testing locally over the last few years? changed? I think people say, okay, you know, that was a tough time. We all got it together. You got concessions because slicked back to where we were prior to COVID. It's, you know, I would say that, we will never get back to how we operated pre COVID. I think that Gone are the days where we are going to go back to how it was and you know, the use of visa workers, the use of offshoring, I think that it's too risky. And I think it's going to be risky for quite a while, right. So I think people need to accept the fact that we're never going to be what we were before. And so we do need to make sure that those interim measures become now long term measures around how we make things happen locally, and how we re skill and retrain our current workers. And I think that's really important, you know, particularly around the mining sector and the manufacturing sector. We need to be finding that talent a lot earlier. We need to be tapping into the schools. We need to be able to attract those people to those industries and get them to start learning and be educated so that we have more of the talent in that pool to draw from and I think That's the key, we need to be doing things now versus looking at, you know, well, we'll go back to how it was prior, we may never go back to how it was prior. And so we need to find other strategies to retrain to find new talent to look at our future leaders of business and and try and accelerate their learning and their growth. Yeah, I think I think you've hit the nail on the head, they're not around. And it's funny, like, from a human nature perspective around watching how everybody's very optimistic around going back to the way it was. Yeah. And then this slow conditioning around all actually this interim is now actually. Right. And so I wanted to bearing that on my a bearing that in mind, what's your predictions? Because you obviously you've got a really good crystal ball there, but what are your pros around what the future is going to look like? for, you know, large, you know, multinational global organizations, and I guess, specifically for their mobile programs, and I'm kind of thinking around, you know, the classic mining where, you know, your firefighters, but I'm also thinking about hospitality, where, you know, you would normally have, you know, hotel managers that would kind of shift from hotel to hotel, and that was their career progression. Is it has that changed? You know, what does that look like for those organizations moving forward? Look, I think it's gonna be harder to retain people. That's the reality, right? So we're seeing even now that even though things are starting to look more hopeful, you know, you hear from big organizations that hire 1000s of staff, that they're still losing people in those industries, because of the instability and the fear of the unknown. So I think it's going to be harder in the future to retain people in those industries. I think when the borders start opening up, and we are still able to see the opportunities for these workers to come back into our market, we will start to see that glimmer of hope again. But I think locally, people are starting to become a little bit more smarter, and they want to be in industries where there is that stability in the job market. And so I think we've got to be really careful about our retention strategies from a mobility point of view. I think there there also is the, the the up and coming trend of people relocating, relocating states, right. So you know, those five, those, they might not be five boroughs, because they might move to those remote areas, because it is cheaper, and the cost of living is more acceptable for them because of the hit that they've had to take over the last two years with COVID. Right. So you know, you might see a decrease in that because people are actually moving regional, they're moving states, because the opportunities are not stable, to move in and out of states to travel quite regularly. So I think it's going to be a really slow transition back to all that mobility piece, you know, people are dying to get out and travel again, of course they are. But you know, they're also very conscious that the mechanisms in place at the moment around restrictions with traveling around the fact that you have to isolate, that's, that's a big disadvantage for people to want to do that. So you know, again, you need to look at your mobility practices and your policies to make sure that you know, you do have a much more attractive scheme to want to keep these people because it's not enough to say, oh, but you know, you you'll be able to travel and you'll be able to go home 14 days and have to have time off, that might not be enough anymore, because that 14 days, they haven't isolate. And that's not a benefit to them anymore, because they can't do anything. Just talking about how people are companies, they've got to be smarter, particularly with the local population. It's sort of a struggle, but it is definitely a conversation about people who are new entrants into the job market and people who are out there right now. Companies are willing to invest. Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a an added benefit and need to hire people based on no experience. So I think the standards around you know what essential criteria you have have to have to be in a job anymore has has loosened, because like we said, there is not people out there to fight for anymore because they're taken. So you need to be able to provide much more robust training programs when someone starts but you've got to assume they've got no experience and you've got to accelerate and have much more support around bringing them on board and seeing them and watching them grow. So I think that's a really true point and a testament to what's happening in the market at the moment. We certainly do that in Hays, we hire our associates based on no experience. And we have very robust training programs to support them accelerate and move through the ranks. And yes, that takes much more time, money and energy in doing that, but we say that, you know, if we have a very clear pathway for progression, we're going to retain those people because they get promoted through the training and the learning and development that they're offered throughout their time in Hays. I think the the issue for the mining sector and the manufacturing sector in the hospitality sector is that you are seeing that aging workforce where people have been in the organization's for 2030 years, and they wanting to retire. However, they can't afford to do that anymore. So how do you retrain that aging workforce in the world of technology, you know, there's got to be a lot of different ways of working, that we allow our people, particularly in that age bracket to be skilled in the area of technology and, you know, mobility in itself, because they would have never thought of doing those skills and those different ways of working prior to COVID. So it is rethinking and re looking at that age bracket and having tailored leadership and management training to to that cohort, because you certainly don't want to lose them. But it's also about flexibility. So what I would say is, you know, the use of job share the use of part time work, the use of, you know, having a more flexible, agile workforce is is needed. So you know, you might not have to settle for full time as any more you might have to just be okay with the fact that you're going to have people on a temporary contract or in a job share arrangement. And you're going to have to accept that that's just the way of work now that that ageing workforce, you know, will transition out eventually. And they might they might do the last three or five years in a part time or a job shake capacity. That I think in maybe a year or two, we're going to need to get you back on and see if some of those predictions that you pulled out or come to fruition because exactly the crystal ball at work. Yeah, exactly that some of the things you've mentioned, have blown my mind. And yeah, you've definitely given me a lot to think about. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you. And I know Jamie has taken away a few terms that he will undoubtedly be using moving forward was it lift and shift or shift and lift and shift I love that it's so many different areas, I think about particularly when you are putting clients or putting individuals on client sites, boots on the ground type D, the amount of checks and balances you need to go through to make sure that they're safe, but also cater for the fact that those ones who are getting exposed to this virus you know, do have the downtime and you have the backup or you have your baiting. You have your understudy, you know, just don't me think of those, you know, Broadway productions. They have their understudy Luke comes in. That's right. Yeah, no, no, it's been it's been really insightful. Like, Karen, I'd love to get you on in 12 months. So let's say we can go through tick off what you've got what you've missed. Absolutely. But I'm sure it all sounded pretty good. So yeah, thanks so much for your time. No worries. Thank you. Bye. Take care.