Legit Parenting
Legit Parenting
Mastering Modern Parenting: Brain Science, Learning Challenges with Dr. Robin McEvoy
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What if understanding your child's brain could transform your parenting approach? Join us in this episode of Legit Parenting as seasoned child and family therapist Craig Knippenberg, LCSW, M.Div and special guest Dr. Robin McEvoy, a developmental neuropsychologist, joins us to shed light on the identification and management of learning disabilities and developmental challenges in children, offering invaluable advice for parents during the crucial summer break.
Navigating the maze of parental concerns can be overwhelming, especially with the added pressures of modern education and the lingering effects of COVID-19. We'll discuss the importance of tailored educational approaches and the benefits of reducing homework to improve both mental health and learning outcomes. Dr. McEvoy emphasizes the significance of understanding family and medical history when addressing learning disabilities, advocating for early evaluations and interventions.
We'll talk about the critical roles of nutrition, hydration, sleep, and exercise in a child's overall well-being, especially for those with attention deficit disorders. Practical strategies for reinforcing positive behavior and building new skills in children are shared, along with a discussion on balancing naturopathic approaches with medication when necessary.
Dr. Robin McEvoy has been practicing developmental neuropsychology for 30 years. With each evaluation, she asks herself, “How can I help.” Many parents bring their kids in for evaluation because they are still struggling, despite working with a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a learning specialist or a whole team of specialists. The parents were doing “standard of care” thoroughly, but it was not enough. There were times she worried that she would not find a way to help, that the parents were already doing everything possible.
But she hates the thought of saying there was nothing else to be done. So instead of saying that, she decided to dig deeper. She dug into nutrition, sleep, medical conditions and myriad of complementary and alternative approaches to learning and behavior. (And while digging, she met Child Decoded co-founder, Kim Gangwish.)
By developing a more thorough understanding of the mind/body integration, she began to find other avenues that actually opened up new possibilities for children. She loves having options for families who had been told to just accept their child’s challenges and live with them. She had been told the same thing about her own daughter who had a severe speech disability and sensory issues. As both a developmental neuropsychologist and a parent, she became expert at mapping out paths through difficult presentations.
Dr. McEvoy earned her PH.D. in Developmental Psychology from the University of Houston, then went on to fellow in Psychobiology/Neuropsychology at the University of Colorado Medical School. She holds a research faculty position at the University of Colorado, and also maintains a private practice where she can evaluate using the Child Decoded model.
Evaluation is the heart of her work with children: helping families, pediatricians, and school districts to find a deeper understanding of complex challenges. Dr. McEvoy enjoys writing and blogs frequently for Child Decoded. She loves public speaking and is a highly rated speaker.
You can read more about Robin McEvoy at her website www.robinmcevoy.com. She blogs about learning and learning challenges as well as tons about “behavior problems in children” because she has strong opinions about that. You can follow her on Facebook at www.facebook.com/DrRobinMcEvoy or on Twitter at twitter.com/RobinMcEvoy.
Real Solutions for Parenting Challenges
Speaker 1Welcome to Legit Parenting, where imperfect parents build resilient kids and families. A place to learn real solutions based in brain science to fit your unique parenting style. We show you how to tackle today's challenges for children and teens. Remember, when it comes to raising kids, you just have to be this side of good enough. Join us and we will show you how this side of good enough. Join us and we will show you how. I'm your host, craig Nippenberg. I've been a child and family therapist for nearly 40 years. I'm the business owner of one of Colorado's largest private practices, best-selling author and father of four. In my fathering world, I've been a birth dad, a single parent, a step parent, an adoptive parent, a parent of exceptional students and a grandparent of two. By my side is Sydney Moreau, our production manager and mother of three ages preschool through 18. Together, we bring you a guilt-free parenting perspective with solutions that actually fit into your real life.
Speaker 1Welcome to Legit Parenting. I'm your host, craig Dippenberg, along with my producer and mother of three, sydney Moreau, whose oldest is spending an internship in Manhattan. Talk about the lifestyle for the college kid living downtown, but he misses his mountain biking. I'm sure he's the Colorado kid. Yeah, that is so cool and Cindy's doing with her youngest the usual mom thing in the summer take them to camp in the morning, pick them up at camp. Our family has just been on a whirlwind for the last six weeks with trips, graduations, celebrations, weddings.
Speaker 1Now this morning I am going to share a news story in a second that I just was so happy about the front page of the Denver Post. But first, if you caught our last episode with Ziggy and Megan and Riley Zart, I want to thank them again for being on. Megan and Riley Zard, I want to thank them again for being on their story of just absolute tragedy for a parent to lose their child and then what they've done to just an incredible, inspirational story of what they've done to recover from that and help other girls around the city. Just it was an amazing interview. The post-interview I think we included on the podcast. I've never cried that much in an interview. It was spectacular. So if you haven't seen it, check it out and make sure you have Kleenex, you will need it. Now the news story from today's Denver Post front page. I was so tickled I almost laughed.
Speaker 1Mental health has improved in post-emergency COVID survey, while one in four students reporting possible depression is higher than any would want. It was an improvement not only over the height of the pandemic, when 40% of students said the same thing, but over the years before the disruption of 2020. The last time fewer students answered that question in affirmative was 2013. So the mental health of these students is bouncing back. The percentage of students who reported attempting a suicide, planning attempt or seriously considering it also hit their lowest level since 2018. Self-harm, which I did several shows on self-harm, on cutting, where you're not trying to die but you're cutting yourself. So non-suicidal self-harm also dropped. 13% of students reported harming themselves in some way, such as cutting. In 2021, one in five students intentionally hurt themselves. So it dropped from 20% down to 13%, which is awesome.
Speaker 1Now there are a few bumps in the road, of course. This one's sad. One in 10 students reported not going to school because they felt unsafe, which, like in 2019 and 2021, was higher than in previous years, and that's a tragedy for our kids. Also, this one's not hard to believe thanks to social media. Sorry, I had to take a jab. One in four students said they rarely or never felt confident about their body's appearance and 23% said they had used unhealthy methods to control their weight, such as going a day or longer without eating, taking diet pills or vomiting. So we still have a frontier on body image and body health being to go. But the other numbers? I was just so pleased. And at the end today, when we talk about things that beauty make me cry I was really hit. My daughter graduated this year. How hard that class of high school students got hit by COVID. They lost pretty much two years of their high school experience and that was a tough road for them. Good news, though Happy to announce that Now, today you got a break from school.
Speaker 1You're evaluating the past year and also thinking about the fall, or talking about what do we do? Where do we go? If you wonder if your child is having maybe a learning disability, adhd or other developmental disabilities? Our guests will help us unpack that topic. And what do you do as a parent? So now you got this pause in the school year routine and what can you be thinking about or doing now, between now and when school starts up? Now our guest is a dear friend and colleague and someone I've referred to over decades Dr Robin McEvoy.
Speaker 1Before I start her bio, I want to start with a great memory. I believe it was at Denver Academy at their big conference, and Robin and her daughter were at the book table selling this lovely book which her daughter Tess illustrated, and it's called Buddy, a Story of Dyslexia. So if you have a child with dyslexia you need to get the book. I've used it at St Anne's, the school I was at, for years, since I bought it. Every third grade classroom after that I would read it to them, we'd talk about dyslexia and it's just a darling book. So I have that connection with her as well. Now her bio. I'm going to break into two parts and then it'll make sense as we go.
Speaker 1Robin McElroy has been practicing developmental neuropsychology for over 30 years. With each evaluation she asks herself how can I help Many parents bring their kids in for an evaluation because they are still struggling despite working with a psychiatrist, a psychologist or a learning specialist or a whole team of specialists psychologist or a learning specialist or a whole team of specialists? Dr McVoy earned her PhD in developmental psychology from the University of Houston, then went on to fellow in psychobiology that is so cool and neuropsychology at the University of Colorado Medical School, shields a research faculty position at the University of Colorado and also maintains a private practice where she can evaluate using the child decoded model, which she will talk to us about in the second portion. Evaluation is the heart of her work with children, helping families, pediatricians and school districts to find a deeper understanding of complex challenges. She also loves public speaking and is a highly rated speaker.
Speaker 1Robin McAvoy is an adopted mother of three daughters and now also a grandmother Congratulations. I love being a grandpa. She lives in Denver, colorado, with cats, a garden, visiting daughters and lots of times with her granddaughter. She also loves walking and riding and wandering through museums. Robin, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you on.
Speaker 2Finally, I know it was so good to run into you the other day and we got to talk about this. Yeah, let's do this.
Navigating Parental Concerns and Learning Challenges
Speaker 1Yeah, it was the Firefly Autism Fundraiser, which is a wonderful school and a delightful evening. And your daughter, tess, was there and she was snapping pictures. She's into social media and she was showing me how to do stuff. She was amazing. And then we needed a selfie and she jumped on top of the chair to do a selfie for us. I'm like whoa, if I jumped on top of the chair, they'd have to go on 911. I wouldn't make it down. So let's start. Robin, yeah, she is something else. Let's just start talking about what are neurodivergent disabilities? When should a parent worry? What should they do? Who should you go see? Let's just start with that, yeah it can be tricky.
Speaker 2Yes, it can be tricky because when you have a child who's struggling with something and then you talk to friends or other family members and they have input and a lot of people say, oh, I went to see this person and it was great, but is that the right match for your child? First of all, if you have concerns, that's a legitimate thing to worry about. I feel like lately a lot more people do have concerns. You're right. Kids lost two years due to COVID and they came out with a lot of anxiety afterwards too. So a lot more kids are showing at least some little struggles and some are showing some big struggles, and so a lot more parents are worried, and I think we push kids hard and we have to pull back from that.
Speaker 2Like I always give the example of, when I was in high school, calculus was not even offered, and now I've got most of my juniors and seniors coming in who have already taken calculus. But I feel like we're pushing the window on what is appropriate development and putting kids under stress in that way too, where if we gave the brain a little more time, they could tackle something without the level of stress that they're under. So it's always a measure of like all right, is this coming from the inside? Is my child having a difference that's going to cause more challenges, or are the demands being placed on this child, this particular demand too much? I remember a mother, specializing, did a lot of advocacy and she said her son was failing algebra. And they said are you getting him a tutor? She says no, he can fail if he is not ready for it. I don't need to push him harder than his brain is ready to. He can do it again next year. So there's a lot of ways to look at things.
Speaker 1I think in terms of parenting or response.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly it's. Let's stop and say is this necessary? Just because a lot of other kids are trying to do it, and it may not be in their best interest either, but we all get on that bandwagon of pushing ourselves too hard. But then there are kids with legit learning disabilities.
Speaker 1Yeah, and the amount of homework kids get now is just astronomical compared to what it used to. I think it was like 1990 to 2000,.
Speaker 2It doubled and I'm sure it's doubled since then it's just yeah I pushed for 10 minutes per grade. So if you're in first grade, maybe have 10 minutes of homework, Second grade, 20 minutes of homework. Yeah, you can do some homework. And I'm actually really quick to just say drop the homework because the research says it doesn't have clear benefits for a lot of kids. So I'm real quick to say this one is going to have attention fatigue. Kids with attention deficit disorder will be tired at the end of the day and homework is just not going to be a good learning experience. But what?
Speaker 1so if you have a concern, yeah.
Speaker 1Well to your point. Just to back up for a second, the brain need time. The brain, every brain, needs time to cook. It's just like brownies and some take longer than others and they need that developmental chance to for it to grow and mature. Now the other thing is the amount of stress, one of the analogies I use for talking about frontal lobe functioning, your attentional system, your impulse control system, time management, all of that. It's like you have a bridge over a river and genetically some people have steel bridges very high, frontal lobe functioning and they can handle a lot of weight on the bridge, so you can roll trucks over that bridge and nowadays in education there's so many big loaded trucks going across the bridge and nowadays in education there's so many big loaded trucks going across the bridge.
Speaker 1And then some people have a wooden bridge genetically and it sags when there's too much weight on it. It really has a hard time holding up. And then there are some kids who have those toothpick bridges you make in fifth grade I think where you design a bridge out of toothpicks and you put too much weight on it and it not only hits the water, it goes in, it just destroys in the water.
Speaker 2And that's part of my job is all right. If we have a toothpick bridge or a wooden bridge, how can we find this child's strengths or how can we find some ways of building it up?
Speaker 1Reinforcing it and taking the weight off?
Speaker 2Yeah, and reinforcing it, yes, and taking some weight off. Always try to take some weight off. There's no reason to do it, calculus being one example. But when I was in kindergarten which was a long time ago, in the 60s you went in to learn your alphabet, learn to count to 20, learn to write your name, but primarily, the focus of kindergarten was learning to be a member of a group, to learn.
Speaker 2And now you've got to go into kindergarten and learn to read. So we've pushed it. You've got to be a reader, you've got to come out of first grade as a reader and we have. Just, we're using the bridge before where they're through being built.
Speaker 1Yeah, they're demanding so much and I failed scissors and crayons in kindergarten. And that was in the early 60s. Yeah, I just wasn't ready for it. But the Waldorf school model I really like. They don't really want to teach reading until about age seven, and if a child is struggling.
Speaker 2You read until they're about 11. Yes, yeah, europe uses a much slower pace, much more child-oriented, and some of the higher-achieving Scandinavian countries. They don't do homework and they don't push them too hard. They really wait for a lot of development to happen. Which gets us back, though, to all right. What happens when we do push them hard? What is a learning disability? What is just too much stress on a child too early? And how do we sort those things out?
Speaker 2I always say, and there's, how do you do your evaluation? There's broad, there's specific evaluations like this we have a strong family history of dyslexia. My child is doing great in everything but reading. Then we can do a very specific reading evaluation. You can do a broader evaluation.
Speaker 2I think this could be useful for kids with certain types of attention issues, because some of them are very, I feel, like dyslexia. I will define fairly narrowly into phonological processing, hard time linking the symbols to the sounds that go with them, and stuff like that. But attention deficit disorder I see as a very wide category. I have my athletic kids whose attention, their alertness, drops as they sit too long in class. I got my creative kids who are very nonlinear. I got my executive function, kids who just really aren't very sequential about things or whose track of things I've got my kids who have had a series of concussive injuries and they are actually theirs is a little more pathological. I've got a lot of different reasons for kids to have attention issues and that's when a broader evaluation like somebody like me is helpful. And then you can have really complex kids, kids on the autistic spectrum, who have very limited communication skills, and you've got to be really able to dig under and that's sometimes a team evaluation is more helpful. So I'll come in but also have a speech language specialist come in to really do a deep dive into communication, but also the occupational therapist.
Speaker 2We had a young man in recently who we really had to break and go swing every maybe 15 minutes and if he went and swung in the OT room and the OT luckily saw him first and said he's got to swing, make sure he gets on the swing every 15 to 20. And he was delightfully cooperative with this. He always got off the swing and came back and worked, but that really helped him. So where does a team evaluation make the most sense? And that's part of what it's like. We ended up writing a whole book about it, just trying to help people sort out what they should do. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1And it's for myself being dyslexic and when my son was finishing first grade they were like I was struggling with the reading and so we had an evaluation done for specifically dyslexia and she came back and said he has red flags and he's going to need some extra support and some reading. And we're like great. So he got part of me and he got part of his mother, who is a phenomenal reader, and that was very helpful for us. We spent the summer in the treehouse reading every morning, which I still have great, very fond memories of, and he read all of his books that the first grade teacher gave to him. So he got a little prize at second grade and by fifth grade we were able to cut him loose and he was doing fine.
Speaker 2So that's an example very specific.
Speaker 1And then it's interesting because when I think of the kids I've referred to over the years, we often get the garden variety this kid has ADHD, one of the parents has it, or both do. The apple didn't fall far from the tree or this child just has social anxiety, or they have a bit of touch of autism. But then there's those times where you get somebody who's quite complex, with a whole variety of symptom groups and I think about some of the kids I sent you with Tourette's syndrome, which is more complicated, right, and involves numerous areas, or the concussion thing, filtering out what could be concussions, and you've always done a wonderful job with your evaluations on that, because that's when it gets trickier. As a clinician You're like there's something going on here, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2And then coming up with the more specific recommendations for how do we rebuild or rebuild, and then some days we aren't going to build or rebuild. We're going to have to go around.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. And which makes for, because school doesn't go around, school goes through, and so these are the skills that we're going to have to go around, yeah, yeah. And which makes for, because school doesn't go around, school goes through. These are the skills that we're required to do.
Speaker 1Yeah, one model fits everyone.
Speaker 2You can find some nice schools in there that can be real flexible, but the majority are trying to. It's an institution and it's trying to move large groups of kids through a curriculum and they are not as much as you can have an individualized education plan, an IEP, it's never quite as individualized as we need.
Speaker 1Right yeah, and then there's always the follow-through. We went down that road with our daughter. We had an amazing plan, but then COVID hit and the implementation of the plan was not good.
Speaker 2It imploded I never switched schools.
Speaker 1And it varies from school to school, I find Go ahead.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, you're right, it's. Things imploded during COVID. They tried to get kids in special ed back first, particularly the kids with really very pronounced needs, the kids who had severe communication issues, who really weren't going to be able to learn over a computer. It wasn't going to work. But we're still in recovery from that. I do so many independent educational evaluations for school districts right now who are trying to figure out what to do with this complicated kid who they everybody got behind on, everybody dropped the ball on during COVID, or we can more say, covid dropped the ball on them, dropped an anvil on their heads. We're just still trying to get through what these kids missed and then what resulted from COVID, which was a lot of anxiety and stress for kids and families.
Speaker 1It was very stressful Now. So I'm thinking about kind of the average family that I've worked with through the schools. There's some symptoms in, say, kindergarten, first grade School, meets with the parents and says, hey, we have some concerns here. Parents usually the dad I hate to be stereotypical, but usually the dad is like he just needs to outgrow it, he'll be fine, right.
Speaker 2And mom's kind of concerned. Yeah, that is it, the guys. It's a really nice balance and good marriage where mom's going to worry a little more and dad's not going to worry as much, and it brings balance. But, yes, the dad's's no, it'll be fine.
Speaker 1That's a good way to frame it. I love that, the balance. And then, if the behavior continues now we're in second grade, we're in third grade that's when I find parents will start to consider getting an evaluation, moving ahead in some steps, maybe taking some of those that the school has been suggesting. And there's sometimes for kids I've had, where the schools don't know they're just fine, but mom has a gut feeling that something isn't right and I always trust a mother's gut that something's amiss. So where should the parents start? Where do they? So they're at home now this summer they're validating some of these things we've talked about. What do you recommend they do to get going and move forward?
Identifying Learning Challenges in Children
Speaker 2I think the parent themselves should probably. It's always helpful if they can think what's our family history? Like you said, we have a little family history of dyslexia. We have a family history of ADD, so that's why she's worried. She knows that there's a predisposition. What's our medical history? I had a little girl in the other day who had 14 surgeries in the first 12 months of life.
Speaker 1Wow.
Speaker 2And then her health stabilized. It was a lot of gastro stuff. Lovely young woman, but mom knew that twice put in medical comas. Methadone was used to bring her out of some of her pain meds. So all this before she's 15 months old.
Speaker 2So you've got a complicated medical history. You've got a family history or your developmental history isn't quite on. Those are things that should probably be worth an extra look. Or you've got a kid whose school says he's fine but when they try to do homework at night he is in tears. He is just done and you can't get it out. That is like all right.
Speaker 2I'm glad I taught my child to put forth a good face during school, and that's before. They're overly fatigued and maybe they've got the social intelligence to put it off. But if you've got those worries it's worth taking a look. I usually say start school. May say nope, things aren't fine and they aren't going to move forward. You can still sign the paperwork and they can't say no, though I don't even know if they always know that to initiate an evaluation process in the public school system that doesn't mean they're going to meet criteria for services. You can talk to your pediatrician after that and hopefully the pediatrician will have resources for you and then you can call the Learning Disability Associations. They'll have resources for you. And I think mothers and dads can be good about this too. And I will say I do get calls initiated by fathers. I would say I'm 80% moms, 20% dads making the call.
Speaker 1It's the same with my lectures. I love to have dads come, but it's usually 10% dads and it's 90% moms. Oh my God, who are the dads?
Speaker 2Who are the dads? But mom is usually the executive. Parents and the mothers are more prone to worrying and dads are more prone to saying things will be fine. Yeah, I think my favorite example of this is mom and dad are sitting in the room and mom's freaking out because he's nine years old. Maybe he's only seven, but anyway, she says. I walked around the corner and he was peeing in the trash baskets. What's going to become of him? I think she thought he was a sociopath and dad-.
Speaker 1No, that's a boy.
Speaker 2It's a boy. I'm like, yeah, I don't know if. I Boys have that privilege of being able to pee easily anywhere when they're young, so I'm not sure I call them sociopaths.
Speaker 1Little boys love to play with their pee and with each other. It's just wild.
Speaker 2Yeah, but the mother was just so worried and dad's eh, and that's the right place to be where they can bring that together. But I tell you, if parents separate, then that dynamic can fall apart.
Speaker 1Yeah, that is true. I also think, like for when my son had his evaluation of dyslexia, it was very helpful for me to see it in black and white. And when you're doing an educational evaluation, I always think that everybody always obsessed with well, what's their IQ? And I'm like like that's like the last thing I look at. I look if there's some discrepancy in areas of their learning unevenness, and then I like to look at attention, working memory and processing speed, and I've had so many kids over the years who were gifted beyond belief.
Speaker 1But their processing speed was like fifth percentile. And so to do homework.
Speaker 2Yeah, I see that all the time it's brutal, so frustrating for the kids. It's so frustrating for the kids. My brain is working at 100 miles an hour. My hand only works at five miles an hour.
Speaker 1So as soon as a parent calls and says and they expect you to write everything.
Speaker 2Yes, it's about my son. He seems very bright but he's having trouble getting his thoughts on paper. How'd you know? It's just boom, hand in hand. If I've got a bright boy, there's a high likelihood there's going to be a writing problem. I can do that diagnosis over the phone.
Speaker 1That's true. Yeah, I just read the other day. Now they're considering the rate of ADHD in our country about one in nine, which I always looked at, one in 10, one to 12, but they say it's one in nine and a particularly uptick in girls and the diagnosis of girls. What's your thoughts on that?
Exploring Options for Children's Challenges
Speaker 2Well, I think like a couple of thoughts come to mind. The youngest, like once again the pressure we're putting on kids to progress, to learn to read in kindergarten. There was a huge study out of Canada years ago that said the youngest kids in the classroom are the most likely to be diagnosed with attention deficit disorder and it's really just relative weakness in their attention development. They're just a little behind their peers in it. Then I think the added stress on the kids that we've got after COVID, plus the added academic stress I think some of the and social media I'm not it really is a problem trying to help our kids cope with the amount of time they can spend scrolling, and I think it's just. I think it's distracting and causing distractions. I know for certain I had a wristwatch on again just to keep me from opening my phone to check the time, because if I open my phone to check the time, I was going to open something else.
Speaker 1You might see an alert, or you got a text.
Speaker 2Yes, exactly, oh look something happened on Facebook or something like that. You know, oh look, something happened on Facebook or something like that, and so I don't like to open my phone because and it's still I'll open my phone to check the weather, to see if I need to get in. I don't even check the weather, I've opened two or three other things first. So I think a lot of the girls are saying I am having trouble concentrating, but the distractions are just so close and then the activities that are happening on them don't build attention span, Even watching a whole movie.
Speaker 1They're so stimulating and instant and short.
Speaker 1And when I say the kids and parents that frontal development, that attention system it develops by using it. You have to use it and be conscious of your use of it. One of my favorite studies oh gosh, 25 years ago out of Minnesota they had kids track like every five minutes. All they had to do is check off was I paying attention to what I was supposed to be doing? Like every five minutes they'd check yes or no and the outcome they did it several times with them. They found that over time their attention got better because they were conscious of I need to stay focused on this, I need to pay attention, and when you push your brain to do that, it gets better. But when everything is just instant gratification, short, exciting, stimulating you have no idea what to do with something that's boring or hard. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yes, there's so many. We have such easy access to entertainment now and distraction. We're carrying it around in our pocket and we're very quick to go to it, whereas it was, and I don't know quite what it's doing to brains and what benefits it may have. But right now I think we're seeing a lot of the more negative consequences of it.
Speaker 1It'll be interesting to see what the research says about that 20 years from now.
Speaker 2I think we're definitely in a flux and it's going to be different. It's just going to be different than what was happening before we had this access to it.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, oh, lovely. Now I want to get on to the second part of your bio, and this is the part I find really exciting. So she writes the parents are doing standard of care thoroughly. So in other words, they're good enough parents, and that's what we talk about on the show. They're doing their job. But it was not enough. Not enough. There were times she'd worried that she could not find a way to help the family, but Robin hates the thought of saying there was nothing else to be done. So, instead of saying that, she decided to dig deeper. She dug into nutrition, sleep, medical conditions and a myriad of complementary and alternative approaches to learning and behavior. And while digging, she met Kim Gangwish. Did I say it right?
Speaker 2Gangwish yeah.
Speaker 1Gangwish, an applied kinesiologist who has an acupressure protocol that has proven very helpful for many clients and who would later co-author a book with her. By developing a more thorough understanding of the mind-body integration, she began to find other avenues that actually opened up new possibilities for children. And she began to find other avenues that actually opened up new possibilities for children. She loves having options for families who had been told to just accept the child's challenges and live with them. She had been told the same thing about her own daughter, who had a severe speech disability and sensory issues. As both a developmental neuropsychologist, this is a lot of reading for me, Robin.
Speaker 2I know, I know, I thought you would take the parts you wanted.
Speaker 1And a parent. She became an expert mapping out paths through difficult situations. Robin and Kim eventually decided there should be a book documenting the evaluation process, the multiples areas of evaluation and the possible treatments, both traditional and complementary or alternative. That led to the book Child Decoded. So tell us more about that.
Speaker 2I'm really fascinated by what you found in research, other avenues to help kids. Yeah, I mean, I just started evaluating. People were coming in. I think it's a quick example. I had a mother call in. Son had been diagnosed with ADD attention deficit disorder. They had a tutor, they had a therapist, they had a psychiatrist already on and he's on medications. She says but we need something else. We just need something else. Something's not working. I'm like, okay, that standard of care very thorough. Very rarely do I get parents who have all three in place already.
Speaker 2He was about 12 years old. So I'm talking to her over the phone. We're setting up to do a more thorough evaluation and out of curiosity I just and sometimes it's intuition after all these years, I said how did he react to dairy as a baby? She says, oh, he couldn't tolerate dairy as a baby, could not tolerate it. But he's okay with it now. He's fine with dairy now. I said, if you can talk him into it, talk him into two weeks off of dairy, no butter, no ice cream, no cheese, no dairy, for just two weeks. Tell a 12-year-old boy you can't have dairy forever. And she's okay. And she is just by the phone. We scheduled the evaluation and she came on him a couple of months later at that point, because I tend to get a little booked out and she said oh my gosh, I did that dairy thing. It cleared up four years of congestion and he's sleeping so much better. Now my husband's going to come off a dairy.
Speaker 2Yeah, that sort of stuff. Don't just take that label attention deficit disorder and think you're done. You got to look underneath Right and I get a lot, particularly in ADD.
Speaker 2I had another young man who had not showed any early signs. Elementary school was fine, but in middle school and he wanted the evaluation he felt he was having attention issues. He was 14 when he came in and that's a little weird to not having the early markers and show up in middle school and it took me a while to get a handle on it. But it turns out he was eating two foods 14 years old, he eats buttered noodles or cheese pizza. I said, oh, and you don't eat lunch because you have sensory issues and you are sensitive to noise and you're sensitive to smell, so you don't like being in the cafeteria. He said exactly I was like your diagnosis is hunger. You are hungry, you can't concentrate if you haven't eaten anything and his mother was a little embarrassed. So no breakfast, no lunch and he's eating buttered noodles or cheese pizza every evening.
Speaker 2Very smart young man and they and he had sensory issues. I felt he had a couple of little things but the number one thing we had to do at that point. He went into medication trial and he actually came to feedback. 14 years old, came to feedback. He says I had to come. I thought my mother would misrepresent me. He was a crack up but he's jiggling.
Speaker 2He's jiggling and I said, are you nervous? He goes no, I'm just like this. On the meds, I was like, yeah, hypersensitive people who have a lot of hypersensitivities might find the meds actually overstimulating for them. So I'd rather you eat a breakfast and we do some other things first and then explore that. So that's digging underneath Not actually always even hard problems, but just not going as deep as you could into what could be contributing.
Speaker 1So many times. For kids who are in stimulants now they are better than they used to be, but a common side effect is lack of appetite. And so for our daughter. We've always had her eat breakfast first and then take her meds.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, eat the breakfast, take the meds and I will ask sometimes for good protein. Yeah, good protein snacks in their IEP that they have permission, like to go to a quieter setting, eat a protein snack and just make sure we're trying to get that foundation. I always think just simply nutrition, hydration, sleep and exercise. You used to not be able to diagnose attention deficit disorder if there was a sleep issue In previous versions of the diagnostic manual you had to rule out a sleep disorder before you could diagnose ADD Wow.
Speaker 1Wow, and we know that kids with ADHD. They get 10% less sleep at night and it takes them about 30 minutes longer to fall asleep and they struggle with that.
Optimizing Child Nutrition and Health
Speaker 1But sleep. So the four you mentioned my fourth grade class. For the first past 27 years I'd explain the whole frontal lobe system to them how it works, brain cells, everything told them, gross brain stories and really fun. And then I do it towards the end of the year. The care and feeding of what I call the president, the care and feeding of your president, and it's those four things. So it's really good. Sleep, lots of water, hydrated hours. Your brain cells want to look like grapes, they don't want to look like raisins. And if you wait to drink when you're thirsty, your brain cells have already shrunk 10%, so they need to be pumped. Your brain cells have already shrunk 10, so they need to be pumped. Uh. And then exercise. That that jacks your dopamine levels up like four times and it lasts for hours, uh. And then turns into nutrition. We go through all the things you could eat, from little white powdered sugar donuts for breakfast or your snack into whole fruits, and then we get into whole grains and then the big one is protein.
Speaker 2That your president needs a lot of protein and if you're not getting that- yeah, just going back to the foundation, I tell people think of each one, even with a kid who does have attention deficit disorder. Think of nutrition, hydration, sleep, exercise, each one worth 10%. Yeah, I love that, if you optimize all of them, you could have a 40% improvement. Yeah, and maybe for some kid who may not be sleeping well, improving sleep could have a 25% improvement.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah, for sure. First symptom of not sleeping enough is you can't focus. When you're tired, right, it's hard to focus and you have no control over your emotions, and so your emotions are just coming out of you.
Speaker 2Yeah, you also get a lot of irritability. Right yeah, you get irritability with the SNCC-deprived kids and what?
Speaker 1I like so much about. This is all just natural stuff. This is just natural brain science. And what's the best way to optimize your brain? The struggle, I find, is getting the kid to buy into, say, eating differently, right? Most kids are happy with exercise. I tell them come to school 20 minutes early and run around the field. It'll be great for you, right? Plenty of kids want to do that. For our own daughter, getting her to eat healthier has been a challenge since day one, and she was really prone to sweets and candy and goldfish and just I will say something else about that.
Speaker 2Then you got to go another level down. Sometimes, for instance, I do the two-week trial. I don't say forever, you can't have this, let's try it for two weeks. But the other thing is, say there's some intestinal yeast in your system, intestinal yeast craves sugar and you say you can't eat that sugar. Well, there's another being in that kid's gut that is craving sugar.
Speaker 2And if you've got other markers for a more significant nutritional deficiency sometimes bags under the eyes we had a guy come in and we had him sent to OT too and he was about 12, 13,. A lot of emotion, dysregulation, a lot of funky attention. But the OTs it's like his muscles don't even connect to his bones properly. He was just an odd looking kid in that way and struggling with stuff. So we were thinking he was actually having food allergies and that were a major contributor to his sensory and emotional issues. Something to the food allergist. And the mother said the food allergist like rolled her eyes. Like you mean to think, you think his behavior issues are due to food. But they tested him anyway and she came out.
Speaker 2The neurologist came out and said oh, you reacted to 72 different foods and we're sending him straight to children's hospital and I can't even say the word. The short is eoe, like a sinophilic esophagitis or whatever. But it's basically when your body is reacting. It's a specialty clinic at children's. But when your body's reacting, it's a specialty clinic at Children's. But when your body's reacting to that many foods. And so he was being, he was in. He was identified with a significant, identifiable emotional disorder. But there was a medical reason for it and I think the in-laws weren't quite buying in. But as soon as this was identified and it was identified as an autoimmune disorder, they got on board because they had a lot of autoimmune disorder in their family and so then everybody could start working together because that's a very difficult medical condition because you're very restricted with what you can eat but your health is going to get worse if you don't treat it. So they were trying to get on board.
Speaker 2So the sugar craving would be something else.
Speaker 1Yeah, but I'm thinking about maybe your book addresses this because I'm thinking about, as you look at, all okay, it could be this or this, but then the parents going okay, so should I go to the allergy person? Should we get a sleep disorder study? Should we go here? How does a parent put that into an order of some kind and approach things in a structured manner?
Speaker 2There are. If you worry, we do put a checklist in the book to look for markers and to help you make those decisions, to look for markers and to help you make those decisions, and then each chapter about that gives you more checklists to try to narrow things down a little bit more. And we do things like, if you come up with enough medical markers or physical markers, we would recommend, say, a functional medicine doctor or an integrated medicine doctor. They have them at Children's Hospital. These are not out there providers. They're integrated into care but they're integrated medicine. What is the relationship between the brain and the body? And you have enough body symptoms that we think something medical is going on. So you can find that nutritionists sometimes can help. I find the nutrition protocols are sometimes what I call protocols and there's very few protocols where I put everybody on these 15 supplements and things get better. 15 supplements will drive a 12-year-old crazy. They don't want to stop at these different times and have a tincture.
Speaker 2Yes, exactly so it's. A lot of are my. I have some favorite sorts of protocols that are not too hard and then I have doctors who I feel like get down to key things fairly and it can be. I just have had really weird things.
Speaker 2A pediatrician sent me a kid once, a baby an eight month old. I hardly ever see kids that young in my private practice because I'm a learning disability person. But her eyes were rolling to the back of her head and she was zoned out and parents had rushed her to Children's Hospital. They did a video EEG. They said these aren't seizures and they kept her for several days and couldn't figure out what it was and released her Eyes still rolling to the back of her head. So the pediatrician said go see Robin McAvoy because she thinks about things and I took a good history.
Speaker 2And mom was off, Mother was nursing, Baby wasn't sleeping well, Baby had a lot of sensory issues. It was a very high demand, hard baby, but a sweetheart. She was really fun to test. But she would pivot to get something and almost fall over and she'd fall apart. Just no emotion regulation she had no, but I'm talking about moms off of five or six foods because the baby had developed breast milk jaundice, which is the first time I had heard of it. And then the baby had oh goodness, what's the white stuff in the mouth? Blanket on the word, it's that yeast thrush.
Speaker 2She had thrush and that hadn't yeah, she had thrust that hadn't cleared on three rounds and nice statin. What's a healthy eight month old done with thrush? And I don't know, and I don't know why no one else is doing integrated medicine at children's that day and I had to, but I said I'm going out on a limb but I think going out on a limb, but I think it's in her gut?
Speaker 2Yeah, and I said I think it's in her gut, sent them to an integrated medicine doctor. She has yeast from and the problem with yeast is if it's in your gut, eventually it will infiltrate other organs and the nystatin will clear it from the gut but it won't clear it from other organs. But the yeast was having die off and it was releasing toxins and that was making the eyes roll and making her zone out. So anyway she was put on a huge yeast control diet and everything cleared up, everything just instantly the sensory issues, the sleep issues, the eye rolling, everything and they were fine from there. But really trying to look at what's going on in a very complete way, don't ever isolate them. I get kids coming in with that dyslexia question. Who is in speech at two and most of your classic dyslexics don't need speech therapy, they need reading therapy. I said I don't think it's dyslexia, I think it's a language problem. They're trying to read but they have trouble interpreting it in their head.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Look at the whole history.
Speaker 1Yeah, but it's like a needle in the haystack. But still with threads With threads in it Checklist. Yeah, yeah, it's got thread that you can find and then find it, but I like the idea of the book and it's again work in parents file, so it's Child Decoded.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, just go to Child Decoded. It's up on Amazon. The website is called thechilddecodedcom because of missing something and we lost our childdecodedcom site. So you got to go to thechilddecoded, but it's up on Amazon and we actually put questions at the end of the chapters too. How do you know you've found a good evaluator? How do you know you've found a good reading therapist? How do you know you've found what questions do you ask? Because that's the hardest part is, you'll do anything for your kids, and so you'll pick a specialist that says, oh yeah, I can handle this, but then you're like I'm not seeing the changes I want to see, because I think a lot of practitioners are very well-intentioned, but did they hit the mark?
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, and there's also so much marketing out there now for ADHD and the brain training programs and parents shell out a bunch of money. The kid hates it. Not many results, there's just so much. I went to a workshop gosh six months ago. A friend of mine was involved with it, so I went and it was a chiropractor who basically said that, like, this whole list of things was all because of a neck tilt during delivery.
Speaker 2Oh, torticollis.
Speaker 1Yeah, and adjusting the neck would cure like 90% of stuff and I'm like really no.
Speaker 2I know, and if you haven't checked your family history, your medical history, your developmental history, you don't know I can talk to other. I mean, I see a lot of kids that don't say all right, who's bringing this? And one parent will raise the hand. Sometimes both parents will raise the hand. Our other kid got all our strengths, this one got all our weaknesses. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, the genetic roll of the dice. You never know how it's going to turn out. But I'm going to get your book for myself and our niece, who, one of her twins, is undergoing a lot of testing right now. One's thriving, the other's struggling, in multiple areas, so she'll really value that to have that.
Speaker 1I got to ask you about two alternatives that I really like myself and I don't know what your thoughts are if you've heard them. One I'm really into breath work and I follow Wim Hof. I have, for seven years now, do a lot of breath work and really find it very powerful, both for endurance or for relaxation or getting myself centered. And all the parents now, and our parents, know that too. You got upset. They'd say, okay, take three deep breaths and the kid would go it's not working. Yeah, because that's the wrong breath. That would get you energized. That's the wrong one. But I find in schools now are doing more breath work with kids. But it's something you have to practice. So if you do it 15 minutes a day you really can dial it in and really make it work for you. But not on demand.
Speaker 2Any thoughts on that one? I think it has to be a family practice. It has to be a family practice. I don't think you would get good breath work in kids if you tell a kid go do your breath work while I scroll on my phone they're going to be on their phone.
Speaker 1I love it. Family breath work I'm going to add that to the list.
Speaker 2I do. There's a lot of things like just summer reading. It's the best thing in the world to say this is family reading time, and the parents have to stop and read too.
Speaker 1Anything they choose, but everybody's got to pick up a book and read. I love that Family reading time.
Speaker 2And you will love it. Yeah, but the breathwork is this. I believe in things like breathwork. I think they're great. It's not on my list of foundation, but it falls under exercise. What are you doing to physically keep your body healthy, and breathwork is important for that. So I would always say oh yeah. I would never say oh yeah. No, that's not a place it does. It is a great place.
Speaker 1I did try with my daughter when she was 13, and she would just look at me and laugh while I was doing the exercises. So we bagged it after twice, because a 13-year-old daughter looking at her dad doing breathwork. She just thought it was comical and that was it.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, now I'm trying to differentiate a little bit. So I cannot be joining you for breathwork yes. Not be joining you for breath work yes. That's where you've got to be careful about butting your head against that wall of certain developmental things, just social expectations for themselves and all. That's why I'd say two-week trial. We're trying this for two weeks. Two weeks with no dairy, or two weeks trying this, or two weeks trying that Getting kids to get their phones out of their rooms.
Speaker 2Actually the rule at my house if you were under 18, you couldn't have your phone in your room at night. And it was quite comical at 10 o'clock I started sending them funny social media memes about getting their phones out of their room and I hear ah, that's so cute, that's so funny.
Speaker 1For my daughter the last four years of high school. I'd randomly text her during the day because they're not supposed to have their phones out right and she would respond immediately and I'm like honey, you're not supposed to have your phone on, get back to class. So she's an easy target because she's just like oh, dad sent me a text, I gotta respond.
Speaker 2Um yeah, exactly, it's so hard not to respond.
Speaker 1The other one that I started about a year ago, and really it's for endurance, is ketones synthetic ketones. There's a company called Ketone IQ is the name of it. It's a little ounce and a half shot. It tastes disgusting.
Speaker 2That'll go over well.
Speaker 1Yeah, for our audience. Ketones are produced by your liver and so when your blood sugar drops, your liver will crank out ketones and pump them up to your brain and to keep you going. And when you drink one it's like total clarity, focused you just, and it lasts like two hours when I'm doing like. Yesterday I rode my bike up to the top of Red Rocks and back a couple hours on the bike and going downhill is very difficult for me. So when I got to the top I took my ketones so I could be extra focused going down the mountain, because I didn't want to hit a pothole and go flying. I'm too old for that. But I've heard one person talk about who has ADHD and he said I think this is better than my meds, but it's not promoted that way or sold that way, but I'm just curious if you've had an experience with it.
Speaker 1It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2No, I don't know ketones, yeah, and I could see where it'd be useful. It's something I'd probably research, talk to some nutritionists because I have so many parents who would rather go at things as naturopathically as possible. Right, and I am certainly open-minded. I really like naturopathic stuff, but I'm not opposed to medication as that's needed. My hierarchy on meds is that safety first. If your kid is not safe and my favorite is the kid who drank the neighbor's chemistry, set on a dare, he came home with a bright blue mouth. And then after that you're failing socially or academically because of your attention issues and you're getting depressed and anxious.
Speaker 2And then after that gray area, it's not the best attention, but you've got friends and you're passing in school, I'll let things ride. We'll go straight to naturopathic stuff, but yeah, but ketones. There's a lot of good things to keep track of out there and I'm open-minded to all of them, which is what I've had to be, because there's kids who are doing standard of care very thoroughly.
Speaker 1I just decided to try it. I'd heard about it on a biking podcast that I really like to follow and I was like amazed.
Speaker 2And so I get a ton of it's good to be your own guinea pig.
Speaker 1Good to have personal experience with all that. If I'm doing an all day ride, I'll do one shot every two hours. I don't know how you'd get a kid to drink it, though, because it is gross, it's a taste.
Speaker 2Yeah, and that's it too. You got to think of strategies. I always tell people, even in my, when I do these evaluations for school districts, where parents have usually recruited me to do it but school districts paying for it. You got to have recommendations that everyone feels is doable. I can't make a recommendation in the classroom. You've got to go repeat all the instructions to them personally after you've said it to the group as a whole. I don't think a teacher can pull that off realistically. So you have to think of what can be done that's doable, and same with the ketones what can be done that's doable. You got a kid who doesn't care how things taste? Yeah, but other kids know you're with parents and the same with.
Speaker 1I'm talking to parents about maybe a behavior chart, the standard go-to thing, but I'm always like do you think you can do it? Can you stick with it?
Speaker 1And some parents are like we tried one. It lasted about two days and we'd forget to do the stickers or forget to buy them or whatever and I'm like, okay, we won't be doing any sticker charts. Or I find a way to make it really easy that the parent can do and I find when I was at the school I would often make the behavior charts for the teachers and the parents and I would try to design it around what the kid liked or their interest, to make it more exciting for them and then actually do it for the teacher.
Speaker 2I always say if we're going to do a tracking of behavior and a building of a skill, that you have to list a bunch of the child's accomplishments that year. This is what you've learned so far this year. You've learned to raise your hand. You've learned to read full sentences. You've learned to stay in your chair or ask before you get out. Here's the next two skills I'd like you to learn, not here's what's wrong. Here's the next two skills I'd like you to learn.
Speaker 1To add to your confidence. You start with the positive the islands of competency. Bob Brooks was on the show a couple months ago. It's the islands of competency first and then. What do we need to continue to work on and what should we build next?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, this is your next second grade skill I'd like you to have before the end of the year, and just the natural part of learning. What have you learned in math reading, being a member of the group, a good member of the group? Okay, you've learned this. And this is the next thing I'd like to add, and I have to tell parents. You may have 20 things you need to accomplish. Pick your top three Right.
Speaker 1Yeah, I've said for years when parents have come to see me, either for groups or individual.
Speaker 2I'll be like look, you have to manage your time, your resources and your stress.
Speaker 1And if you want to come back in a year to work with me on these other things and start over here on this, great. But you have to manage all of that and that's what the podcast is all about just relaxing as a parent. And even if you have a child with developmental issues, they're struggling, what we've been talking about. Don't do it at a breakneck pace. Don't schedule everything in two weeks. Let's get everything done in two weeks.
Speaker 1Take your time, relax. Read Robin's book, come up with a plan, play the long game, and then fit your budget right. You got to take it one step at a time, and that's being a good enough parent.
Speaker 2Robin, this is yeah, we're playing the long game. We don't have to fix everything tomorrow.
Speaker 1Right and for our audience, the spelling of your last name is M-C right Capital E-V-O-Y.
Speaker 2Yeah, M-C-E-V-O-Y.
Speaker 1Yeah, I don't do the spelling thing. Robin, it's been delightful having you on today. It's just very fun and relaxing and just was really enjoyable. You're welcome to hang on for the last part of the show or, if you need to boogie out, you can.
Speaker 2I'll listen on it. I will remind parents build on strengths, Don't just focus on weaknesses. Yeah, a child will build their future on their strengths.
Speaker 1They will. Yeah, that's where it's going to come into play. I told some parents the other day their behavior system was to take away the kid's baseball, his practices or games and it's like the only thing in the world the kid likes other than gaming. And I'm like don't take the baseball. That's what he thrives for. Leave the baseball Never take the strength yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly, never take the strength away because they love it. And so you're thinking, oh, that'll be leverage. No, why make this child spend more time with what they're miserable, what makes them miserable? Never take away the strength and build on the strength. If this is an athletic child, this child needs to be moving.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, excellent. Again, thank you, robin, for our audience. We'll finish with things of beauty. Make me cry. I had a pair of this so far down. I have so many from the last six weeks. We've just had some incredible experiences and with our kids and family, and I've just been overjoyed and very emotional.
Speaker 1I've cried a lot in the last six weeks and I think it started on Mother's Day when we went to see my 98-year-old mother, who now is like stage four, stage five dementia, but as happy as could be, and we were talking with her and my daughter, who just finished cosmetology, noticed how long her nails were. They hadn't been trimmed in ages and she decided to do grandma's nails. And watching her do that for my mom was it's just precious, it was just unbelievable. And hugging my mom for probably will be the last time was that started us off at a roller coaster. The next was at our church. They had what's called a sending service or a blessing for the graduates from high school and our daughter was there just to experience that. And and there were times, robin, I don't know how much I'm sure about my daughter, but I've talked about the audience, and there were so many times we didn't know if she'd make it to this point. There were some real concerns about where would she end up and what the journey would be and to reach both her high school graduation and her cosmetology degree.
Speaker 1That associate's degree was just so moving and we wrote her a letter, along with 10 other important people in her life. And then we read all those letters. I was crying more than she was Truly a blessing I'll just share. I got so many more but they had a rose ceremony for the cosmetology degree and this was so inspirational. There were 40 young women, one male, who were getting their rose and then they would read Each parent would get up on the stage, parents or a partner or an important person in their life, and they would give a rose to and then read their letters to the parents. And we were overjoyed.
Speaker 1Lily's letter to us and I was really struck. There was probably 35%. 40% of the young women were of immigrant families and this one man, the dad, got up and he could only speak Spanish and then they interpreted it. But just, even without the interpretation afterwards he was so overjoyed and he thanked the whole community, the teachers, all the other students and parents, and that she was their first one to go to college or get an associate's degree and it just felt wow, immigration is still alive, but coming to America and having a dream and seeing your kids start to attain that was really extremely, extremely moving.
Celebrating Student Accomplishments and Challenges
Speaker 1And finally, a big shout out to Colorado's finest high school, where our daughter ended up for the last two and a half years. That changed her life. It's an amazing school. If you're in the Denver metro area it's free to any public school student in the metro community. It's in Englewood School District but it's open to every student and she was able to go to high school in the morning and then cosmetology in the afternoons. And I just looked at the rose ceremony they had for those students. That was another rose ceremony. So we had two graduations and two rose ceremonies. But we were so proud of our daughter. She got the Community Service Award for the most volunteerism, hours of volunteering for others, and I just I was so proud of her. My first book I stamp every book with make your empathy a verb and she has done that and continues to do that and I couldn't be more proud of her, although, on the other side of things, if we could just find a way to keep her room clean, everything would be perfect, but I guess you can't have everything.
Speaker 1I want to thank our audience for tuning in today. Hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please share it with a friend and until next time, just relax. You only have to be this side of good enough, thank you.