Is your contact form hurting your business? Ooh, listen to this episode. Hey, it's Alan Berg. Welcome back to another episode of the Wedding Business Solutions podcast. I am so glad to have my friend Mark Chapman back on to talk about something we were talking about offline. And I said, I'm starting the recording here. Mark, how you doing?
So fascinating. It's all good. I'm doing great. I love being here. Thanks, Alan.
So you and I have these great conversations before and after we do recordings, and we just recorded an episode about advertising. What's different now? And you said one more thing after.
We're sorry.
No, no, no. Don't be sorry. This is fantastic. It's fascinating to me. So we were talking about contact forms and required fields and things like that, and you said that you've seen something working really well, except it's not being followed through. So what is the change that you've done on your landing? Well, actually tell people what it is, so they advertise. And then there's a landing page. What is that for the people that don't understand what that is.
So a landing page is a dedicated page. That's not a full website. It's sort of like a one page experience about your venue. Let's say, where it's paired with an ad, where you're showing an ad, maybe on Facebook, Instagram, Google, whatever, and someone clicks on the ad and they visit this dedicated page. This really is the purpose of it is to share all about your venue, photos, maybe video tour or whatever, and give people a chance to fill out a form or contact. It's not a full website, but a more succinct version that sort of expediate. Expedites the lead conversion process and takes.
Away the distractions of all the other things that are on your website.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
They'll put blinders, especially if you don't just do weddings. It takes away the mitzvahs and the quinces and the corporate work that they. That they can't see any of.
They don't want to know you do mitzvahs. They want to think you're just weddings. And that landing page is the solution.
Right. So it's a mini web page, but not too small. Okay, so contact form is right on the page.
That's correct. So we give people an opportunity on the page to fill out a contact form if they want packages and pricing for the venue. I'm going to use venues as the example, but it can be done for other types of businesses, too. But. So here's a form on the page. It says, hey, drop your information in if you'd like packages and pricing. And the form basically has name, email, phone number, and their ideal wedding date. Now here's what we do.
That's we, we've been changing and is fascinatingly making a huge difference. Difference. We don't make the phone number field required. And we also put a little bit of text there. It says, drop your phone number in if you prefer texting. And what is happening, Alan, is wild and crazy. 80% of people who fill out the form put their phone number in indicating that they prefer texting as the way that they want to be contacted. We didn't expect it to be that much.
It is literally blowing our minds, but it makes sense.
All right, so a couple of things there. The wording, I love it. Drop your phone number in if you prefer texting is a very conversational way of saying that. Drop your phone number in instead of please enter your phone number if texting is your preferred method of communication. Right.
And we're going to call you and leave voicemails, right? Yeah.
Right. So, and now the other thing is that packages and pricing, and I know with like the not and wedding wire where I have extensive experience because I used to be VPS sales at the knot, I know that when they test different wording and a lot of you get frustrated because 50% of your leads say the same thing because they're choosing the wording, asking for pricing and packages gets better conversion than other wording and other phrases that have been asked for because that's what people think they need. So I'm sure you've done ABC testing on this stuff, right?
We've actually tested literally like hundreds, maybe even thousands of different, like, offers or like call to actions in the landing page. And really what it comes down to is meeting the couple where they're at in their journey of searching for that venue or professional, which is packed.
Right. So if you're not a venue, right. Preferred wedding date is not going to be the choice over there. So if you are a photographer or a dj or videographer or something else, it wouldn't be preferred wedding date. It could be your wedding date that you could ask for their wedding date. You don't have a box for them to be able to say anything, type anything.
Typically no. Actually, sometimes yes, but it doesn't really make a difference. It hasn't had any impact on like, is there any valuable information being put into that box? Bye. Couple that like, is going to help you? Not really.
Jeff. And if you want to put a box, don't just say message. Right. Because you want to direct them a little bit more. I would also not be so esoteric that you would say, what's your vision for the day? Because not everybody thinks that way. But if you wanted to say something like what, you know, what would you like to share with us about your wedding or something like that? Or if it. If there's something specific to your business that you, you could ask about, maybe different services. Okay.
But I love our venues. Sorry, some of our venues asked, like, tell us your love story, or, like, tell us about your engagement, which is super cute. And not everyone fills it out, but I think there's a lot of couples who are really, really excited about what their story is, and it does kind of give you a little bit of an insight into that lead and who their personality is and what they're into. So.
And just because they had a great engagement story doesn't mean they're going to tell you, because some people just. Yeah, my son, who's engaged, definitely stepped up over his, his parents because we got engaged in the front seat of my car in Queens, in New York, on the, on the street.
Romantic.
And, and my son proposed in Strasbourg, Austria, gave her a ring that belonged to his great grandmother. So little step up.
That's a win.
That's a win right there. But again, I think about their personalities and tell us about your engagement. They might not. Right. Even though it's a great story. They might not. But that's also a mirroring thing. We mirror the style of the people, the person that tells you.
Oh, I'm so glad you asked because we were in Strasbourg, Austria. Have you ever been to Austria? It's really nice. So first we went to Switzerland, and then we were in Austria. Then we went to France after. Right. Those are the, those are people. That doesn't mean that person's any more of a buyer than the person that doesn't tell you anything.
Right.
It's because it's that.
Yep.
Right.
Exactly.
But, okay, so what that form does not do is interrogate them with all these other things that you will eventually need to know. And I'm sure you've tested that as well. So name. Now, do you do first name, last name, or is it just name?
We actually separated out, but it probably isn't going to matter, to be honest. We like to separate out because a lot of people have, like, CRM softwares where you can separate first name and last name. And we like, zap. That information into the software.
That's why I was asking, because if you just ask name, you might get just a first name. You might not get a full name. So first name, last name, email, drop your phone number in if texting is your preferred method of communicating. There you go. And then again, one other field, and we know statistically, I don't know if you know the numbers, but every field you add, less people fill out reduces.
The number of people that are going to fill out your form all day long. And I can support that with like literally all of our advertising data. When we look at the data and conversion rates on forms that have more form fields than less, it is clear as day, all day long. It's been that way forever. More form fields, less leads.
Right. So it's not that you will eventually need to know those other things, it's you don't need to know it today.
Yeah.
To get, and I say save some questions. Save some questions to ask them. And I like to do the softball questions. I call it the low friction questions or the low commitment question. Ask the question that they don't have to ask their partner that they don't have to think about, such as are you going to be having your ceremony and reception at the same location? Or how many guests are you expecting? Or if you're a photographer, will you be getting ready at the venue or at another location? Save those questions, because they'll answer those quickly versus other questions that they don't want to answer at all, like their budget or they don't, you know, they have to talk to their partner or, you know, what's my vision for the day? Oh, I don't know. Let me think about that. Do you want an answer now? Don't ask them that. So what are some of the other tips there in terms of contact forms, both through their advertising? And of course, this will translate to your website and everything else you do.
What are some other good tips?
Yeah, well, I want to quote my good friend Alan Berg, who said, ask only enough to start the conversation. And that rule can be applied to anywhere where you're like top of the funnel, front facing with people. We're talking about landing pages now, but that really can apply to your website, too. There's nothing wrong with having a request, a quote form on your website. People are a little bit more serious. But make sure that there's another form on your website that's simpler. Or make sure that your website has your phone number in the banner and the sticky header at the top that says text us they can text you and ask you a question. It's all about making the person who's at your site who doesn't know you, because typically it's a cold, especially with advertising, it's a cold audience.
They don't know, like and trust you. Give them the opportunity to talk with you without forcing them into your processes that are not what they want in that moment.
All right, again, is it easier for you or easier for them? Which we've, I think we said on the last episode, I know it would be easier for you if they would just fill it out. It goes right into your CRM, it goes into your drip campaign. You start responding to them, and there you go. And you didn't have to do anything. But the truth of the matter is, this is a very large purchase in most cases, even if you're not the biggest purchase. So if you're not the venue or the caterer, still spending four figures or five figures on something is a large purchase for people. They don't know what they're shopping for. They want.
You said it. No, like and trust. So if you go back to an episode I did with Bob Berg, b u r G, who wrote the go giver series with John David Mann, I had Bob on, right, because he's the one who said that, all things being equal, people will do business with people they know they like and they trust all day. Right? And that's the relationship. It's relational, not transactional. And when you have a form that's got so many fields on it, like an RFP type thing request for proposal, which is common for corporate, it feels transactional. Let's go back to. Let's talk about websites with the advertising.
They go to the landing page. The form is right there. We're trying to make it clear both in text and with the form. If you want to get more information, this is what you do. You can call us, you can email us, you could text us, whatever. What I see on websites, and you touched on this a little bit, is I see buttons that don't relate to what's going to happen when you go next. There's a book on my bookshelf. I've referred to it before.
Waiting for your cat to bark is this marketing book. And it says to think about the buttons on your site as questions that get answered when you click on them. So that's why you don't want to have. Read more, read more, read more, read more, read more. Because I don't know what I'm reading more about, but what I see a lot of is book now.
Yep.
That goes to a contact page. Right? So the promise is book me now. But you broke the promise because you went to contact us.
Or same thing with request a quote. A lot of people like have that button that says request a quote and then it goes to the contact page and it may have like form fields about the quote, but it's like, it's like yourwebsite.com contact. And it's like there's a disconnect there that erodes people's trust. Not they would, they wouldn't think of it that way. Like outwardly like, oh, I don't trust this website. But they're like, oh, this doesn't really match up. Like I'm not having a good experience.
Well, there's the dissonance, right? There's the friction that you're adding there. So I think, first of all, if you say get a quote and it goes to a contact page that says contact us. And I had this just the other day with a client. Did I get to the right place? Because I clicked on get a quote and it went to contact us. So what I suggested with this client was have two forms. One is to get a quote form and one is a contact form. The contact form is short. So again, like you said, for the landing page, the name, the email, the phone, and I love that.
Drop your phone number if texting is your preferred method and then make. And again, if you want to one other field, right, just try to stick to one of the fields and then they get a quote. Say at the top, we'd love to give you pricing information in order to do so. So you don't pay for things you don't need and you don't pay any more than you have to. We just need these details. You know, this will take you four minutes to fill this out and then you can give them that long form. Because the promise is at the end of this, I'm going to give you a quote as opposed to I'm going to answer your question. So do that.
But the wording on the buttons is so important. I say the difference between a seven year old and a 27 year old is the seven year old pushes every button to find out what happens. And the 27 year old doesn't push the button unless they know what's going to happen. Right? So the promise of the wording get a quote, should go to get a quote form, contact us to get a contact form, check availability should go to a calendar where I put in that right but it shouldn't be the only thing. And do you see people, I don't know if they're doing what if you suggested but telling them listen if you want to do a check availability thing thats fine. But also have this ask a question. One separate.
Yeah if were talking about maybe a main website with lots of different options youre right. Honestly the more ways that they can contact you or ask a question or do whatever they want to do the better. Have that request a quote form. Have the contact form. Have the ask a question form. Its okay because a lot of people are at a different point in their journey so I think I support that all day long. And then though it can be a little bit to administrate like the different forms and things and so get overwhelming.
But, but again what I did is I created a separate email address for all of my form inquiries. Perfect so I won't miss them. Now they also go first into the CRM. The CRM then sends me an email with the information. So I get an email which means someone has filled out the form, it's already in my CRM so I don't have to enter their first name, their last name, all that kind of stuff. It's already in there so that's already been done. But I also said send me an email not to my main allenberg.com dot because I don't want to miss it because it's a waterfall. It's constantly and the only thing that comes into that email is those.
So that way if I look like I'm in outlook and I have 123-4567 different emails and that's not including our secret shopping ones. I have seven different emails here and I can see I have one new message here, one new message here, seven new messages over there and I could break it down or I could look at the main box with everything and.
You can prioritize like oh new quote request like hot priority exactly.
But that lets you, it gives you visibility and this is a very low tech way to do it is just creating another email address. That's all it is.
And you know one other thing I wanted to point out or like talk about is the location of the form on the page. And I'd actually love to find out if you like what your thoughts are on this too. So like if someone clicks that contact button and it goes to a contact page, do not put ten paragraphs about your business and all like if they've decided they want to contact you and they click the button, okay maybe a couple sentences of like, what's going to happen after they fill out the form so they know what to expect. But put the freaking form at the top of the page because that's what they want.
Look on mobile and look on mobile because on desktop it might look like it's at the top of the page. I had this just the other day, all day when you went on desktop, to the left was contact information, address and all that kind of stuff for this venue. To the right was the form. But when you went on mobile, all of that stuff went on top, went.
On top and someone clicked that contact button and they had to scroll through all the other things that they actually didn't want to do to get to the form. And a lot fewer people are going to fill out the form because they're like, this is not what I wanted.
Now, maps, that was another thing that I find, right? So your contact page has a map on it. Now I go to mobile and I'm trying to scroll past the map and what happens? You're scrolling on the map, the map starts to move. Right. You've seen that? I've seen that.
I'm so annoyed.
This was an episode I did. If you can't walk a mile in their shoes, at least take a few steps, go to your own website, try to do that stuff. Try to scroll. And if you're scrolling in the map, put the map below the form. Don't put the map. I have to get past that. PDF's again. I think a PDF is a wonderful format, but not for mobile because it's tiny restaurants.
If you're listening, stop putting your menus in PDF's and making us scan the QR code at the restaurant to see your eleven by 17 menu on my phone. Right. Because they just, they haven't walked a mile in our shoes. I mean, that's what it is. If you traveled as much as I do, eat out as much as I do. This is a constant frustration where I go to your site and I even have it. I saved a business card for a place in Vegas I just ate at, which was wonderful. And that was, I'm going to give them a great review, but I'm going to ding them for that because when I'm trying to see what I want to eat, it literally was an eleven by 17.
In other words, they printed menu.
You shouldn't have to pull out your reading glasses really, really tight.
Pinch, pinch, pinch, pinch, pinch. But this is, again, walking a mile in their shoes. Do you know how much of your traffic is mobile. If you don't have Google Analytics, it's free. Get it added to your site. Take a look at that. What are you seeing from your clients? I know you work with a lot of venues, but also other businesses. How much of their traffic is mobile these days versus desktop?
Typically around 70% to 80%.
Okay. Yeah, it's that high now.
Really, really high, yeah.
I see clients that are 50 50 and more. And it could be different with some of the other categories as well. But I don't see anybody these days who's getting more desktop than mobile. It's rare. Now if you do corporate work and stuff. Like, for me, I'm 70% desktop still.
Because you're a business to business. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
But I can also tell you that my first website, I left a knot in 2011. So my first website went up in 2011, and it was about 25% to 30% mobile, and it's still 25% to 30%. So I look at trending. That's what, for me, analytics is for, is trending. My trending, it wavers between 25 and 30%. Like this little tiny sine wave. That's all it does. Whereas my clients, it's gone and then just keeps.
Keeps going.
And, you know, there's a caveat to what I'm sharing, too. Because when we look at Google Analytics, we're looking at our members and we're doing advertising for them, and advertising is literally like 99% mobile these days. And so for that reason, if we're looking at analytics and we're analyzing what's happening, it's because so much traffic is coming from mobile devices, from their ads. Because TikTok is 100% mobile, Instagram is 100% mobile. Facebook, who even knows what Facebook is anymore? You get the idea. So for that reason, I want to share that cozy out. And it could be lower, a little bit lower in other scenarios, but, you know, in the context of advertising, literally 80%.
Right. And either way, just assume that it's more than 50 50. And if you are not looking at your own site on mobile, trying to manage your own site on mobile, if you create a landing page, look at it on mobile. So with my site, even though it's 25% to 30% mobile, there's a contact form on every page. So even though it's not a technically a landing page, it is. Because if somebody says, I want mastermind information, I'm going to send them to that page.
I.
And that page has everything that they need, including a contact form and what it says is call, which is a link to dial text, which is a link to text me. Email, which is a link to email me. Or use the short form on this page, which is a link. And it takes you to the form regardless of where you are on the page. So if you're below it, it'll take you up. If you above it, it'll take you down. If it's mobile and it goes to the bottom of the page, it takes you. And it doesn't have to reload, beat me to it.
You. Totally. So, like a lot of times we put the form at the bottom of the landing page or the page on the website and there are buttons on that page that bring you to that form. By clicking it, it zooms you down automatically to the bottom of the page so you can fill out the form and it allows people to read the content of the page to be convinced that they should contact you. Right. So, like, people can read as much as they want. And we repeat that call to action button periodically throughout the page so that if any point they read 50% of the page. Okay, I'm ready.
I want to contact them. Maybe they need to read 75% of the page before. So putting the form at the bottom is a really great way if it's not the, the contact page itself.
Right. And again, you don't want the form to be the first thing on the page because they just got there and they aren't going to fill it out.
They don't know you.
Right. And that's like the, you know, the websites that I see where on their homepage, right below their hero or on the hero image, it says book now. I'm like, whoa, whoa, I just got here.
Yeah. We could go down that rabbit trail about what the book now called where that button should be all day. Yeah.
Right. Well, that's the aggressive salesperson. When you walk into a store that's trying to sell you as soon as you walked in, it's like, I just got here. Give me a chance. Let me get a little comfy over here. Okay, so coming, coming full circle over here. Contact forms, as it was, as we agree, shorter, better. Statistically, shorter is better.
Every field you add. You're not trying to make it easy for you, you're trying to make it easy for them.
You know, and this is an opinion. This is data based science. Like, it is not Alan's opinion, is not Mark's opinion. It literally is. We've spent $25 million in advertising and managed that amount of money in advertising over the last ten years. And like all day long we will look at contact forms. That is how it goes.
And then the wording on the buttons, important because it has to fulfill the promise. And then something if you missed it, that mark just said before is contact us multiple times throughout the page. Don't wait to the bottom to have a contact us button. And my opinion, and again, this is opinion. You tell me if this is database fact. If I have to scroll on my mobile more than if I have to go to a second screen before I saw a contact, I shouldn't have to go to a third screen to see contact. Are you doing it on every screen on mobile or every other? Or what?
You know how we solved that, Ellen, is we have sticky headers at the top. So the sticky header is like if you're scrolling the logo and maybe a call to action button and your menu, maybe the hamburger money stays at the top on every, no matter where you're at on the page, it doesn't take up too much of the screen but. So that gives the opportunity to convert at any point in their journey. But repeating that button is really important too.
That's what I meant. How often is that button, if I'm on mobile, is that every screen, every other screen?
Oh, that's a good question. I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to that. But I would say it's like at least at the minimum, every other screen. And it is at the top as well because you want people to understand what is the action you want them to take on this page of your website. So they're probably not going to click that button at the top because they don't know you yet. They haven't read anything. But if you tell them, learn about our packages and pricing and then they know what the page is about and what to expect.
Right. So that's what I was getting at. So in my opinion is at least every other screen, it doesn't necessarily have to be every screen. And if they're on desktop that every other screen probably becomes, you know, one screen, you know, it's the next one. Just remember, they can't see the one that they scrolled past. Now they're only looking at the one there. That's why you have to say it again. Make it easy.
Reduce that friction. All right, Mark, thank you for coming back on. I know this is, it's kind of a passion and pet peeve of ours together.
It's both. It's both. But I love it.
Yeah, it is. But we both love the science of it as well as the practicality of it. It just makes sense. It just makes sense to do it that way. So, doing what's easier for them, wording on the buttons, shortening that contact form, making it easier. Don't say book us now. If it's not booking now, don't say get a quote. If it doesn't say get a quote.
All those things there. Thanks for coming on and we'll get off our soapbox now.
I love it. Thanks so much, Alan.
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