Shucking the Status Quo: How Communities are Restoring Long Island Sound One Shell at a Time

Every oyster shell tells a story — and together, they're helping bring Long Island Sound back to life.

 Watch "Shucking the Status Quo," a conversation on local aquaculture, indigenous stewardship, and community shell recycling, and how they're working hand in hand to restore one of our most treasured waterways. Featuring shellfish farmer Beth Simonds, Chief Sagamore Buddy Pocknett, and Tim Macklin of CORR-CT (Collective Oyster Recycling & Restoration), moderated by Tagan Engel of The Table Underground.

 Recorded live at the New Haven Museum as part of the 2026 International Festival of Arts & Ideas.
 Featuring:
 
 Beth Simonds, co-owner of Stonington Farms Shellfish
 
 Chief Sagamore Vernon "Buddy" Pocknett, Mashpee Wampanoag
 
 Tim Macklin, co-founder of CORR-CT
 
 Moderated by Tagan Engel, The Table Underground
 #NothingWasted #ArtIdea2026 #LongIslandSound #CTOysters

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Welcome to Great Art Big Ideas, presented by the International Festival of Arts and Ideas. I'm Tiffany Hopkins, curator for this year's ideas series for the festival. This program is part of our Nothing Wasted Sustainable Kitchens and Thriving Ocean series, and is also a part of our Gordon Jabal Environmental Series. Our event sponsor is Connecticut Public. This conversation was recorded live at the New Haven Museum as part of our 2026 Ideas events. In this episode, titled Shucking the Status Quo, how communities are restoring Long Island Sound one shell at a time. We joined Shellfish Farmers Beth Simmons and Chief Sagamore Buddy Pochnett, along with Tim Macklin of Core Connecticut, for a conversation about how local aquaculture, indigenous stewardship, and community shell recycling are working together to restore some of our most treasured waterways. Moderated by Tegan Engel of the Table Underground. Here's Shucking the Status Quo, how communities are restoring Long Island Sound one shell at a time.

SPEAKER_06 1:07

Thank you so much, Tiffany. This is a really special moment. It's not every day that we get to sit down with two amazing shellfish farmers and an ocean steward, they're all ocean stewards, and really hear about this work. So I'm really grateful to all of you for being here and especially grateful for you all from coming out of the mud and the ocean, traveling all the way from Cape Cod to be here with us today and the two of you from other parts of Connecticut. I'm especially honored to welcome Chief Sagamore Vernon, who's also known as Buddy Pochnet, with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Hi, how are you? Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_06 1:45

Yes. It's uh first of all, thank you for coming down from Cape Cod to be with us. And it's really important that when we're talking about land and water and food, that we are listening to Native people whose land and water we are on. And so so grateful to you for making this trip here. Um Buddy serves as chief sagamore for his tribe. He's also an ocean farmer, a shellfish farmer, and also serves on the natural resources department for the tribe. So, Buddy, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:17

Um, Beth was introduced, but I'm gonna introduce again. Beth Simmons is the co-owner of Stonington Farm Shellfish. It's a small family farm shellfish company based in Mystic, Connecticut. And Tim Macklin is the co-owner of Core, which is collective oyster recycling and restoration, together with Todd Kenke. And very happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Thank you very much for having us.

unknown 2:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:42

So, buddy, I'm gonna start with you. Um, you were raised on Mashpiwampanoag Land in and water using traditional practices for harvesting oysters and quahogs. And you've been doing that since you were very young. And you've also faced violence from law enforcement when you were trying to practice your traditional ways of gathering food. I'm wondering if you could start us off by talking about the importance of ocean, the ocean and shellfish for your people, and also why you have decided at this point in your life to be a shellfish farmer.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yes. Um thank you again for having me here for uh me to uh speak to you uh about indigenous practice and traditional eating and harvesting from the ocean. So it's very important for you people to understand how we come about uh practicing our history of where we eat. Um we are seasonal eaters in summertime, we're eating from the ocean and getting all of our fish and energy from the ocean is kind of different. During the wintertime, we're a seasonal, uh, which we all should be eating out of seasonal. But I got into shell fishing more or less. Uh my father did a documentary about Cape Cod, about Papanesset Bay where our farmers 60 years ago, um, when we noticed the bays were starting to die from over shell fishing. So uh we brought it to the town and and and talked to the towns and everything, said, listen, we have to do something to our oceans in our bays because they're being overfish. And I was specifically talking about Papinessa Bay because that's the bay that I grew up in. But for indigenous spots, it's happening from all the way from the coast of all the way from Maine, all the way to Alaska. Um, you can find an indigenous person in each corner of this globe um having the same problems with indigenous foods and rivers and streams. So, with that kind of being said, uh water quality is one of the biggest problems that we have here in America right now. Um, overfishing, overpopulated of houses and different pesticides going into our bays and streams. And uh really overfishing has a lot of got to do with it uh from the inside, from shellfish all the way from finfish into the ocean. So it's really important to get out there and get the information to the people and and make that everybody understand how we're gonna come back and and come over all the problems that we have. Um, so this this shirt is kind of uh perfect. That's why I put this shirt on here to uh say what we need to say right here as which is to repair. Repair. So repairing the earth in the our waterways is very important for us to uh get across.

SPEAKER_06 5:52

Yeah, thank you. And can you tell us a little about your farm? How many acres are you farming? And do you own the land? Or you how did you even get this access to the ocean?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

So most of the um um problems that we've had through all the years with the um with the people coming in, we you know, every indigenous tribe has the same problem with Europeans coming here and uh taking the land, stealing the land, and then putting laws on you and not wanting you to practice your traditional ways of life. They want to change it over to European ways and to make us uh go um what we eat everything in in grocery stores and everything in. That's not really the way that I was brought up. I was always brought up as traditional eating. Um I'm one from the me and my wife and my kids are one of the few people that really eat 80% out of the land from the water, um, which is great. Um, but I like fried chicken.

SPEAKER_07 6:55

It's kind of my downfall.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

So, you know, I got into uh oyster farming more or less because uh of water quality. Um seeing the bays uh come apart, uh oyster beds going down, uh no more um kelp in the water, uh muscle beds going apart, overfish of no more quahogs, lots of ramps, uh new ramps, and two, three, five, ten million dollar houses coming on the waterfront. You know, uh as you notice, most indigenous tribes we never built on the water. Uh it was a uh haven for summer dwell. And then in the winter we backed away and we all we never uh never even had houses on the on the on the river systems or the bay systems because it was that important to keep it pristine and and keep all your right uh vegetation along the bays. Uh so you know it's hard to do that now with you know you can't even walk the path that you used to walk to when you were a kid, and now you have seven ten million dollar houses there, and they say, Who are you?

SPEAKER_06 8:04

Yeah, yeah. And I think you're farming on about 30. Uh just this 12 acres. Oh, 12 acres. Okay. And you're what are you raising on the farm?

SPEAKER_00 8:12

So uh quahogs and oysters most mostly.

SPEAKER_06 8:15

And quahogs are a kind of clam if you're not familiar, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah, quahogs.

SPEAKER_06 8:19

Very special to to the Wampanoag people, yeah. Beautiful, thank you. So, Beth, let's um hear a little about your farm. Can you explain a little bit about what your farm is and what you're growing and how you're growing? Because I think you're using a few different methods for growing oysters and shellfish on your farm.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

So we have about 120 acres in the Mystic River, um, and we employ all that we know of anyway, uh, traditional oyster farming methods. And so we start at home, uh, we source a huge amount of our seed actually from the Sound School in New Haven. Um, the fantastic kids at that school and their teachers, they take our oysters and they spawn them in their aquaculture program. When they're ready, we buy them from them, and then all that money goes back into their program. Um, and then on the back side, the kids come out to our farm and they get to see where they go from there. They learn to shuck and they get to taste the oysters that they helped us to grow. Um, so we have an upweller system at home where we start the oysters uh smaller than my pinky nail, usually four or five to eight to 10 millimeter. Um, and we start actually grading them and shaping them at home. Um, so we've got 16 upweller baskets. Each one weighs about 100 pounds. Every day they get cold up and they get washed at least once a week, all of those oysters, and we'll be at about three and three quarter million seed at the end of this season. Um, and about 20 to 25 percent of those will make it to market.

SPEAKER_06 9:54

Um and let me just interrupt for a second. By at home, you mean that you're living on your farm.

SPEAKER_05 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:00

So you're talking about you're talking about in the ocean. So you have them in you have them in like very fine mesh baskets.

SPEAKER_05 10:07

I assume everybody knows where I live. Um and so, you know, we literally live on the farm. Our house is on stilts suspended over our upweller system. So we're very fortunate. Um, and uh so it's just constant hands-on work, and from there they go into bags and cages, and they're still worked every week um to to chip the edge of the shell. And when you chip the edge of the shell, you get a nice round oyster. Um, you also are able to keep an eye on predation that way, and so we're able to get on top of any problems that might be coming, you know, as a small farm, a huge way that we're able to be number one, uh, environmentally responsible and number two, profitable, is to keep our um morbidity levels low. And so that just translates to touching the oysters constantly. Um, you know, a lot of people think that we just dump our seed on the bottom and then in a couple of years we go scoop them up and then we just charge you an exorbitant amount of money for very little work. Um, by the time you get one of our oysters, it's been touched probably 40 times by a member of our farm. So there's four of us, uh, three of us work full time outside of the farm. And uh, you know, that's three and three quarter million seed a year that we're working together um in our spare time as much as that exists. Um yeah, there's no spare time. Um, and so the reason why we have this system where they actually end on the bottom um is we we've got blue crabs and we've got oyster drills. And so on all of our leased beds, because we've got about 120 acres of leased beds throughout Mystic and Groton, um, we have blue crabs in our particular areas. So we can't put an oyster on the bottom if it's less than two inches long. And if I can crush it between my thumb and forefinger, it's gonna get eaten. So it forces us to invest in extra gear. Um, gear translates to more permits. Permits are typically in a quadruplet to several different agencies. None of them are copy paste. Um and so it takes at least a year just to secure a lease. Um, and so it's about a year to secure permits for your gear to protect your oysters. So now, you know, we've got this huge initial investment of between $75,000 and $100,000 up front. You've got to buy your gear, you've got to ensure that your permits are correct and submitted. Um, you've got to make sure the town and shellfish missions are happy with you and you're making good choices. Um, and you've got to make sure your oysters aren't dying. Um, and so just to go back to our process, we we finish our oysters on the bottom when they're large enough to not be subject to predators because it allows them number one, the shell gets nice and hard. You don't want to shuck an oyster and have it just flake everywhere, and then everybody's spitting shell out, and um, it's not attractive. So you don't want to do that. But it it the shell gets hard. Um, you get a nice shape, and you also pick up the mineral flavor of the bottom. Um so there's a depth of flavor that comes in a in a bottom culture oyster. Um, you're picking up the minerals, you're picking up the the substrate. If it's near um any eelgrass, you can get a little bit of a green vegetable flavor. So every one of our oysters tastes slightly different because of our process and how ridiculous we are and how we grow them.

SPEAKER_06 14:06

Great. So you're starting in cages and then moving them to the ocean floor.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

Yep. And then they actually very last step, we finish them in cages up off the bottom because there's a process in Connecticut called deparation where they finish it's a final flush where they have to sit in a high tidal flow for two weeks before they can be harvested. Um, we put ours up off the bottom in cages that sit on large PVC pipes, and that means they're not bringing in any sediment as they're flushing. So when you open one of our oysters, you're not gonna find any sand or mud or grit. Um, it's just something that we choose to do. It's not something you have to do. Um but our for us to do this and and feel we're we've done a good job, we we have to take every possible step. Um, and that's just sort of our final step to ensure that our product is is as good as it can possibly be.

SPEAKER_06 15:05

Great. And buddy, on your farm, are you how are you growing in cage, wild? Uh similar.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

You know, we all we all kind of uh all of us growers kind of uh pick up and and talk to other growers to see how they're growing, what's the best way to grow? Um and seeds is like upwells is I'm trying to get the tribe to buy two uh upwells now so we could get more for cheaper money to make more product. Um, but you know, it's not it's kind of difficult when you do things with when you're running on grants and everything. But uh it kind of pays off with with the upwellers and and having having land, that's one of the great advantages you have. Tribes, most tribes don't own land on the water. It's all been taken, you know, it's all gone. And so to find a spot on the bay uh would be kind of perfect for you, you know. But on Cape Cod, you know, that little uh one of uh we have four acres that's around one of the islands uh around that grant, and the guy wants five grand five million dollars for the piece of property. And it's like uh we showed about it a long time ago when they offered it for 200,000. Uh so you know, it's really hard to do that, but we do bit more or less do the same thing. It's like I uh grow them in cages, and uh and this year I get some floating cages, so I'm gonna start seed off in my floating cages this year, um, and and see how that works out. But also I bring them from uh I put them in deep water all winter long, and then I bring them up onto the flats. So, like you say, they can flush it, they'll be nice and clean, chip the edges, and that's what I'm doing now, rolling, rolling them and uh shaping them up, so getting them ready for market.

SPEAKER_06 16:47

Nice, great. So, Tim, you're you're here not as a farmer, but as a shell recycler and an ocean restoration wonderful person. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about explain the process of what Core does?

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Yeah, so um we um run a statewide shell recycling program. So we partner up with restaurants and seafood businesses um and provide them with the equipment that they need. Basically, it's just a bucket, which you can see over there. Um they instead of throwing those shells in the trash, um, they put them in the buckets. We pick them up once a week. Uh, and then we um take them to our storage site, which is in East Haven, Connecticut, about 10 minutes from here, uh, where they have to cure for a minimum of six months. And curing just means they stay outside in the elements and it just uh dries them out. It kills off anything potentially harmful on the shell. We're getting shellfish from different areas of the country, so you don't want to introduce introduce anything invasive um into Long Island Sound when we eventually put the water uh shell back in the water. Um, and so we're in about 53 restaurants from Greeddage to Mystic. Um, and we've recycled over a million pounds in about three years. So um, before this program was started, there was really no recycling going on in Connecticut. Uh for some reason, Connecticut, New England, uh shell recycling just wasn't uh a thing. Um go down south, Virginia, Maryland, um, New York. There's a member of the Billion Oyster Project here. Um they have a great uh recycling, restoration, and education program as well. Um, but Connecticut and uh just didn't have anything. So we saw an opportunity to do something and um was fortunate enough to get a grant from the state of Connecticut, the the Department of Agriculture that gave us the money to kind of buy all of the equipment that we needed and kind of really get started. So it's a map, we're about three years old. There'll be three in July, will be our first pickup of 2023. Nice. So nice.

SPEAKER_06 18:40

Yeah, and if you think about, you know, if if humans weren't taking the oysters out to restaurants and then throwing them in the trash, the shells would be back in the ocean, right? And the shells are there because the baby oysters grow on the shells to make an oyster reef. So can you explain that process a little bit? And then also, what is the point of what you're doing? Like why is this so important beyond just that we want oyster reefs?

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, correct. So the reason you want to recycle the shell and get it back in the water is it uh provides a uh a surface for oysters to grow on. So when oysters spawn, they have millions of babies. Um it's um they float around in the water column for about two weeks, they're microscopic, but they develop their own shell. Eventually they sink to the bottom and they have a little foot that they can kind of move around a little bit, uh, but they have to attach to something or else they get swept away with the current and they don't survive. So their favorite thing to attach to is old shell. So basically you take all that shell we recycle, we put it back in the water, and they'll uh when the natural oaster spawn, they'll eventually find their way, hopefully, onto that shell. And so this is the time of year that that starts to happen. So we're in the process of moving about 350,000 pounds of shell from East Teaven to two locations. One is in Milford, uh, where's the uh Bureau of Aquaculture? So we have that's our main partner. Um they kind of are the lead uh in determining where the shell's gonna go. Uh and then we work with uh two oyster farmers in Brantford, Leeds Island Oysters and Stony Creek Oysters, and they got a grant from the NRCS to do some restoration work up there. Um so the oysters will spawn when the water hits about 70 degrees, which is towards the middle to end of June, beginning of July. So uh starting next week, we're gonna be loading all that shell up onto some of our shelfish farmer partners' boats. They'll take it out to the designated areas. One is in Bridgeport and Stratford. It's a historically productive natural oyster bed. Um, so the shell will go there and the rest will go in Brantford. Um, and these are to basically just grow the natural population. Unfortunately, the natural oyster population of Long Island Sound uh is about 10% of what it used to be through um overfishing back in the early 1900s, um, water quality, as we've discussed. Um, and then there were two diseases that went through uh the oyster population in the mid-90s, MSX and Dermo. Um, and that really uh wiped out most of the pop remaining population. So it's only 10% of what it used to be. So we need to be able to get that shell back in the water to really help that natural population survive and grow.

SPEAKER_06 21:12

Right. So growing habitat is one important thing of what you're doing. And what are some of the other impacts of why we want these shells back in the water?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, so um oysters have numerous environmental benefits or ecosystem services. Um, they're a keystone species, so that means um they're kind of a foundation for the ecosystem. Uh, they build reefs, um, and these reefs provide habitat for up to 300 different marine species. So they're really important for biodiversity. So they create uh housing, you know, just uh areas for juvenile fish, crabs, snails, um, shrimp um to live and grow. And then then in turn, you'll have larger fish that will come in and eat those. So they really are kind of the foundation and basis for a healthy ecosystem and for a lot of environmental benefits. Um, so that's one. The second One is that we've got a little experiment going over there. So it's some of the education that we do, we'll go to schools and we'll um we have what's called an oyster lab. And so we uh do a little about our presentation about oysters and why they're good for the environment and shell recycling, but we'll set up this little experiment which kind of really drives home the other really important thing that they do is filter water. So one adult oyster will filter about 50 gallons of water a day. So those two tanks there, one has oysters, one doesn't, and we put algae in both of them that we actually got from the sound school. They're again great, great program there. Um, and so usually after about an hour, hopefully if the oysters uh don't get staged right and they do what they're supposed to do, that tank on the right is the one with oysters, it'll be crystal clear. So we're we're getting there.

SPEAKER_06 22:42

Hopefully, it's already you can see a difference, and it's been about 20 minutes, so it's already lighter green.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Yep. Um, and so that's another great environmental benefit. The third uh is when oysters grow on the coastline, they help to stabilize it. So um oysters will really love to grow in uh intertidal creeks and um areas um right along the coast. So you'll have grasses and soils there that um, if they're not protected, can erode during storm surges. Um, and so they help mitigate that impact from storm surges. Um and then they're also just beneficial for uh the commercial oyster industry and fishing industry. Um the, like I said, the reefs are also are nurseries for other fish species, so they help uh um grow the uh commercial viable, commercially viable other fish species. And then when you grow the natural oyster reefs, uh those oysters will spawn. That spawn will land on neighboring lots. If you look at a map of Long Island Sound, a majority of it is leased oyster lots. Um and so it's basically like a underwater farm. So all of these areas around where our natural beds are are leased grounds where they work those and grow oysters. So when the natural spawn, they'll land on those lots and help that become uh or just be more sustainable.

SPEAKER_06 23:57

Yeah, thank you. So part of what we're talking about here is our watershed, which is we have our ocean, but we also have all the water that comes through the state, through the land out into the ocean. And Beth, I know part of what you do is education about this. Can you talk a little bit about what you try to help people learn about our watershed, not only along the shore, but also people who live inland?

SPEAKER_05 24:20

Sure. So a big part of um our farm initiative is I I go, thank you. Is that better? My man up front has got me covered with a microphone. Um so not every school can afford to come down to us in Mystic. And so I have sort of a traveling classroom that I take. And uh I go, you know, to schools inland. And the the typically high school, I'll do science classes so that we can talk about the environmental benefits of oysters, and then we also um service culinary classes so that kids can learn about food safety, they learn how to shock, they try the oysters, they don't always love them, but that's okay. That's pretty funny when they don't. Um but there's no connection for these kids between where they live and the effect of what they do, what that effect has on the watershed. Um, and so, you know, when I'm in like Hartford County and I'm talking to a kid whose dad just changed his oil next to the storm drain at the end of the driveway, where do you think all of that is going? Your yard looks like a golf course. It's not supposed to look like a golf course. We're meant to have brownish scrubby grass. Um, where do you think all of that's going? It doesn't just like disintegrate into the air, all of that makes its way to the watershed. And it's sort of like this really fun aha moment for them. But the other big piece that I find is the the number of children and and people in the state of Connecticut that have free access to the watershed is so small. And how can we ask you to preserve something that you don't get to benefit from? So a big thing on our farm, we're prime waterfront in Mystic. You want to pull your kayak up on my lawn. I really don't care. Like bring a peanut butter and jelly and hang out for the day. This belongs to all of us. I can't ask you to be responsible with your practices at home and then not allow you to play in the salt water. Um, you know, Mystic, everybody thinks it's a very wealthy area, the income disparity is huge. So in the schools, you've got a kid at the lunch table who only eats at school because there's no food at home. He's sitting next to a kid that just got like a 20-foot center console boat for his 16th birthday. So I find where we are, if you don't have either access to scholarships, which are very difficult to find and secure if you're working full-time to support your family or sailing lessons, you don't get to play in the salt water. So something that we're trying really hard to do, and it's a huge task to take on while trying to keep a farm um running and above water, no pun intended, but you know what I'm saying. Um, to to try to like get that initiative rolling is really difficult. But that's something that in the future we would like to see more of is more access to kids to the salt water because it's it's about more than just how I'm going to be profitable right now. Somebody's got to take this on in the future, or all of this work we've done is for nothing. We're just going to revert back to having dirty water and we're going to see a reduction in wildlife. The the estuaries and watersheds are going to be disgusting. They're going to be like foamy and bubbly and gross. Everything's going to die, and everything that we've done is for nothing. So there has to be an investment by all of us to keep this movement going because we're gaining momentum. We're doing, I mean, what you're doing is incredible. Like Pinterest is great, but you don't need the shells. Put them back in the water. Um, so it it's just such a a waste for us to let this go now, but we've got to get people to fall in love with the watershed, and to fall in love with the watershed, they need to be able to access it. Um, and so that's something that we're facing. And and if I could get all these kids in my car and get them to the house or to the farm to play on the beach and fish and swim, I would be so happy, but I can't do that. So there's gotta be a way that we as a state can make the the watershed more accessible for everyone. It's the only way it's going to survive.

SPEAKER_06 29:04

Absolutely. So, buddy, I know you care very deeply about this, and you're our neighbor just past, just up the up the shoreline. Please share about what you think we need to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yes, uh, the watershed is very important to all of us, you know. It's it's life, you know, and it's really life for the indigenous people because that's where we get a lot of our medicines in the watersheds. Um, with that being said, with everything being exposed and overdigged, uh, mud everywhere, um, all the habitat is gone. Um, something needs to be done. And the education is where we're at right now. Uh and it's important for us as middle-aged and older people to get into our grandchildren. Um, my wife and and a bunch of people from the tribe had started a science camp that we have every year. Um, we had to have a group of 25 kids that we plant indigenous plants, take them to the water, uh, show them how the shellfish grant is uh growing, what what it is doing for water, uh, bring them up to the watersheds and seeing what's uh not growing and what's growing. Um what's really hard to get to the state's head is all the extra mud it's in our estuaries. Um with all the with all the piers and all the boat ramps and all the houses that's going in there. Um when you drill uh to make a dock and you drill another pylon in the water, it creates all your mud and all your mud goes in there. And around each pole, usually like 10 feet usually dies off. And uh when that dies off and down, every every house has a dock. So now you can imagine every every dock in every yard, uh it's all dies and then it turns into mud. The mud is suffocating the suffocates everything that comes on top of it because uh not only they're killing the shellfish, they're tilling the eel grass, they're killing the little horseshoe crabs around. You know, uh a lot of fishermen don't like um conks. So uh they kill conks, which is a part of the ecosystem. They're only taking out the wheat, but you know, uh you go into some some towns and and the commercial fishermen will pull up a bunch of little small conks and he just slaps a hole in the back of it and it just dies. So, you know, you when you're doing stuff like that, you're you're uh killing the ecosystem. You know, I had one guy tell me in Mashby River, oh, you know, it's all great in here for me to swim, uh, but once in a while this eelgrass was up around me and it's just but I pull it out. You don't know who you're talking to. You're talking to a guy that, you know, that's what helps your keep your base clean. It makes your oysters grow, it keeps your steamers there, it helps create uh your little fish. And with overfishing, like we say when I say overfishing, overfishing and uh outside in our oceans. We have the draggers out there taking a lot of the fish. And what that does when we overfish in our oceans, uh, because these days we would go and we wouldn't really know about spawning areas. And so, but this these days the technology for these big ships going here and they take in all of our fin fish uh during the spawn. So, you know, years ago you could go down in any one of these bays along the whole New England coast and you could just dig a little hole and get a couple clams, put it on your hook, and you could get a whole bucket of flounder. If any of you use fish, you would know this at this age. You know, you would get a whole bucket in one tide series. Uh right now you couldn't get a flounder in the in the bays. One or two, uh maybe three, it was legal size, because this they're overfishing. So when you overfish on the outside, and then these fin fish don't come on the inside and start eating all the predators, the extra worms, the extra stuff that's on the ground, um, then we're we're we're killing our bottom, we're killing our mother earth. You know what I mean? We're we're killing that ecosystem that really mounts, means a lot to everybody in this room because the watershed is that important.

SPEAKER_06 33:27

Yeah. So we're talking about a lot of the really upsetting parts of what's happening. So I'm curious with your farm and with your tribe, or even just the shellfish that are growing wild, what are some of the things that are working really well to help your people be able to use their traditional practices to harvest and and either on the farm or wild?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Well, I don't I I don't think of them as uh working really well. I think that we're at a starting point. Okay. Um, and there's a lot more work to be done um to get people to understand how much fish we really need to get in the water. And it's like uh popping us at bay, it was all natural oysters in there. The whole bay on each side, all every corner, was all oysters in the water, even in the summertime, it was crystal clear. You could see down to the bottom. And then in the in the in the 60s and 70s, when there was no limits for people fishing, uh, and they could take whatever they want, they just overfish. And now the bays is like, now we have to create businesses to get more fish in the water. And then it's like so even the towns, the towns do the best they can, you know. Uh they don't really see the the bays as a profit, you know what I mean? If you know, if if something in in this country, if it doesn't make them money, they're not interested, right? And and they're not interested in fixing the bay because it's not making them any money. They're actually losing money because they have to take $700,000 to put towards the bay to clean it. They don't want to do that, but it's the right thing to do. Yeah, so we have to make them and convince them how much more and how much important it is to clean up this shed, to get these fish in the water, to let them produce their selves so we don't have to feed these bays every year. And how do we do that? But with education and education with our children, I think is the way to go because everybody our age is just like kind of over the hill. So we have to educate our children now because it's important to get them to understand that how this whole system works.

SPEAKER_06 35:38

Yeah, absolutely. Um, Tim, what are some of the things that you think would help the work that you're doing to be able to have a bigger impact?

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Um we're still working on partnerships. So um, you know, we're only three years in. There hasn't been a lot of, you know, oyster restoration work in Connecticut happening until this kind of started. Um, and so we primarily work with the Bureau of Aquaculture, um, but they're also a small agency, they're understaffed, and so their ability to uh plan, execute, and study large-scale um restoration projects is challenging. So currently, actually, they the Bureau just applied for a grant um to um do a large restoration project out here in New Haven Harbor. They're gonna they're dredging the harbor, and so they want to come up with a beneficial use for that sand instead of just taking it further out into Long Island Sound and dumping it. So we're gonna establish some plots of uh seafloor where they build it up with that uh dredge sand and then we'll put shell on that um so it'll raise it up so it's not in an area where it'll get the the shell fish will get silted over, as Buddy said. You know, they don't like uh bud and silt. Um, and so um, you know, this is something that hopefully will get started in 2028. So larger scale projects like that, where there are multiple agencies, I think C grants involved, the Army Corps of Engineers. Um, just you need you need a lot of um agencies to kind of make this successful and then continue it on because it's not something you can just do once and just kind of walk away. Um, this has to happen for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Um, so it can't just, you know, uh it takes a lot of shell. You go out Long Island Sound on a boat or just take a look out there and you realize what one side, what one acre looks like, um, and uh how many acres are out there and how much shell you need to actually um start a reef, it's a lot. So those kind of partnerships and collaborations are big. You know, getting more, we're at about 53 restaurants right now. Um, there's probably another 75 that we could be totally in. Um so just getting more shell, keeping it out of the trash as much as possible is another thing. Um and then just you know, educating the public about why this is all important. I think that's you know what we need to continue to do, what their work does, and how it's it's um pretty amazing to me that this is one of the only forms of farming that has so many environmental benefits. You know, terrestrial farming is is notoriously um, you know, using fertilizers and whatnot. This is just all natural. You don't have to feed the oysters, they pull the water, pull their food out of the water. Um, and so it's very low impact. Um, and so just letting people know that there's how beneficial it is and how um uh how much of it is going on in in Long Island Sound. It's I think Connecticut is probably the fifth largest oyster producing state in the country. A lot of we do a lot of outreach, and people have no idea that there's oysters growing in there, or you can eat the oysters and clams coming out of Long Island Sound. So really getting people engaged in that, oh wow, there's a healthy shellfishing industry here. And it's you know, I know overfishing comes up a lot, but the way they produce oysters is extremely sustainable. A lot of the overfishing happened from you know decades ago, and so we're trying to recover from that. But uh the way they grow oysters is extremely sustainable, and it's just you know, people need to understand that, I think.

SPEAKER_06 39:00

Yeah. And we could be doing farming on land in ways that are also much better for our land. But the way the way our you know traditional modern farms are doing it is definitely harmful and contributes to the pollution in in the ocean. Yeah. Um Beth, what are some of the things that would kind of help your farm and help the oyster industry? For what?

SPEAKER_02 39:24

I forgot to mention that too.

SPEAKER_05 39:27

Particularly under this administration, there's very few grants uh available. For me to apply to a grant or to apply for a grant, I need to really almost take a week off from work. Um I I it's mind-boggling. I attended a grant seminar um and I went in hopeful. I had my notebook, I was ready to take notes and learn how to get a grant. I was gonna come home like loaded with information. I beboped down to that seminar and sat at a table with people who were a part of a municipality that had an entire grant writing team. They were not able to secure a grant. So how am I gonna do it? And you know, we don't just have a farm, we also run a general contracting business full time. So if I'm not on the farm full time, I'm a carpenter full-time. And if I'm not a farmer or a carpenter full-time, I'm a bookkeeper full-time. So, you know, I don't have time to put in to to maybe getting something. Um tariffs were huge for us this year.

SPEAKER_06 40:43

Um how did they affect you?

SPEAKER_05 40:45

Uh we we spent three years designing a boat and uh we got her up in Ontario and she was finished just in time for tariffs. Um, the same year that we were feeling um the effect of a $170,000 oyster loss due to weather. So for us, everything happened at once. Luckily, um, we maintain really happy, healthy relationships with all of our customers and wholesalers. And so we're sold out for the foreseeable future of every oyster and every size that we have in the river. Every single one is spoken for. We just have to stay in business long enough to get them all out there. Um and and you know, oystering, the the very basics of what we do are very environmentally friendly. For us, we do all um basically it's vegetable oil that we run through our hydraulics. Uh, we maintain all of our equipment, we do all of our own mechanics and and everything for for keeping the boats working. Something that would be helpful, which is something I was pushing four years ago, but is obviously on the back burner right now, is if we could get some sort of funding for more sustainable packaging. So right now we pay about 40 cents per bag um to to repackage our oysters and send them. It would cost me, I think, probably now it's probably closer to four dollars per bag to purchase a bag made from um beechwood fiber that would biodegrade and that when it's produced leaves no carbon footprint. I'd be out of business if I had to do that. So, you know, it's I keep growing oysters, we keep putting them in the river, we're we're cleaning the watershed, but then I have to use these, you know, bags that had these polypropylene strands that are going to sit in a landfill forever. They're not reusable according to the FDA. I understand why we can't obviously sterilize a million bags. Um, I try to use them at home for things, but they're still in existence, they're still out there. So there are ways that we can make this more environmentally friendly. We can't afford it. So we do what we can, but we've got to cap it at some point, or we'll have these great, you know, biodegradable bags and no oysters to put in them because we won't be able to afford to farm it. So that sort of defeats the purpose. Yeah. Um that and the fact that, and I don't know if you find this in Massachusetts, but there's a real um issue with agriculture and aquaculture being on the same playing field. So, you know, if I'm a strawberry farmer and there's a storm, I can go out and say, Oh, I lost one acre of strawberries. I need X amount of dollars. And I can get that estimate within the FDA's window of loss. The only way I know how many oysters I've lost is when they fail to move ahead in the growth cycle. So by the time I know what I've lost. We're way outside that window for any sort of um relief. So I could lie, I'm not gonna do that. Um so so there's really very few safeguards as far as recouping any environmental losses for us. And um, so to to sort of have us have the same benefits as land farmers would be would be really beneficial.

SPEAKER_06 44:27

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Thank you for sharing. Um because uh the uh three years ago um we had a cold snap and that killed everybody's beds on the cake. Yep, every everywhere, even probably yours at the time. That was December 22. Low, low tides for two weeks. The tides never came back in, they stayed totally low, and we lost 80% of our production. Uh 80% of our catch had died. So 80% of oysters, 80% of co-ops, and and you didn't even catch it until uh springtime when you went out there to check everything, and it was all frozen and all gone to the top and all did chill. You know, how do you bounce back from that? It's like, you know, didn't have insurance at the time. So, you know, it's it's a catch 22. You know, either you damn if you do, damn if you don't. But you have to be on top of the oysters and the cohobs and and try to predict the weather. You gotta be a weather coach, or the acid. And it's so hard to be a weather quality hassle, whether it's gonna be too hot, whether you really need to bring these oysters down deeper or bring them up so you can kill the predator, uh, the stuff that's on them. Um it's a lot of a lot of work. And um, it's just a never-ending story with with uh keeping them clean, keep making sure that's they're shaping right. And and and the the money issue. It's it's it's it's so hard to keep the the the money flowing there so you could get a better product and make sure that you've got the great help and you know help was good help was hard to find because you know everybody wants to be in water. You have to find those people that's passionate about clean water and growing gelfish. And you know, there's rare rare people that that want to do that.

SPEAKER_06 46:16

Yeah. And I know you got a grant from the USDA that helped you set up your farm. What are some of the benefits of of that, but also some of the challenges of the of having grant funding?

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Well, the the challenge is uh the benefits are but the money all comes at once and you can get those people, quality people in there. The bad part about it is the the grant funds end. And then when it ends, you and and you can't survive on those people leaving when they leave, and then now you have a grant that is almost functional because they only they've only given you enough money for uh 3%, 4% of the business before you can start to go. But when that money ends, then then you're losing your help. It's like there's you almost got enough rope, but just enough to choke you too. Yeah. So then that pulls you back. Then it's it's kind of like starting all over again of trying to find the quality help, of of getting purchasing more seed so you can reproduce. Because if you don't get seed every year, um that following year, if you didn't get seed, then you're out when that when that all that other stuff is gone and you didn't get the stuff the year before, that whole season. Oh well, I got nothing this year, you know. Yeah, and fortunately, I like I really don't like selling in the summertime because it's the vibro season. You have the vibrio right now. Yeah, yeah. So what is that? Vibrio is the diseases that come in when the warm water is, and you have to ice everything. So that's your other challenge. Before years ago, we never had all these transactions. You had to go get ice with them down. You have to have special water to cool them off. They have to be out of the water at this time, they gotta be in the refrigerator uh this amount of time. So there's all these challenges and and changes that you had that you never had years ago. And uh what that does, that just makes these rich businessmen, because they're the ones making the law, they're the ones making the bags that we have to buy, um, that say, you're gonna use these bags, you know what I mean? So they they put every effort in there to kill your business. So these bigger businesses, they're the ones they want to corner the market. So us little guys, uh, we say, Oh, we can't take it no more. We we can't afford it. We how can we afford to keep going if the prices are keep going down and we can't keep up with it? You know what I mean? That there's always some other wrench that's goes along with it.

SPEAKER_06 48:46

Yeah. So if people want to help, want to get involved, what would be some ways that you would suggest, whether it's helping with policy, buying your product, helping with education, any other ideas you have, what would be some ways? Maybe Tim will start with you, that that people could get involved and help.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

That donations and money. Like you said, yeah, I agree 100%. It's really challenging just to go off of the whole grant system, which is great and it's got us to where we are now. But um, it's really hard to build your organization when you know you only have money for a year. So bringing on new staff, you know, you're you're gonna have to figure out how to pay them the year after, or else you know they're not gonna be able to stick around. So um, you know, we do have some volunteer opportunities. So, you know, we do a lot of outreach at festivals and events, so getting people to come out, maybe help us, you know, if we're at a large oyster festival and recycling show there. There's you know, we'll recycle about three to four thousand pounds of shell uh in a day or two. So it's always good to have people help literally just filling buckets and moving that, so little things like that. Um yeah, just um being aware of what what we're doing and um you know, contributing either financially or through volunteerism is is is important.

SPEAKER_06 49:59

Yeah. Beth, how about you?

SPEAKER_05 50:01

Um we would love to be in more Connecticut restaurants if anybody here would like our product in Connecticut restaurants. We uh 90% of our product goes to Boston and then it's shipped nationwide. We love our Boston wholesalers, um, but I would love to have a bigger footprint in Connecticut. Aside from that, pick up your dog poop because all that washes into the water. Stop with the Roundup, let your lawn go natural. Meadows are beautiful, wildflowers are beautiful, let it happen, and you'll have your Sundays back. You don't have to be a slave to your lawnmower and your weed whacker. Um dispose of your chemicals appropriately. Utilize your hazmat collection centers, don't flush your medicine down the drain, use your local police station to take those things back, and be mindful of the fact that even when you're not near the water, you have a direct effect on the health of the watershed. And the watershed has a direct effect on the health of the planet overall. Um, so just being mindful and uh always support your local farmers. We work really hard, and it's not for the money, believe me. It's just because we love to do it. And I know for me, I I work with my husband and my son, and um my absolute very best friend is is a a co-owner of our farm. Um, so for us, it's for the love of the water and the love of the job and the love of each other. Um, there's a lot of small farmers around you that are doing the same thing. We're not gonna get rich because we're saying, like, come by local. And yes, it's a little bit more expensive, I'm sure, but there's a reason it's more expensive. So if the price is a little higher, do your research. There's a reason. It's not because we're like trying to get your money. It's because we're delivering a better product and we're doing it responsibly and sustainably.

SPEAKER_06 52:13

Yes. And buddy, how about you? What can people do to support and help?

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Uh well, mine is all about education uh for the waters. Um, I like the uh water quality, a clean act, um, for the simple reason is it's kind of our life story. Um, if you you don't have clean water, you don't live uh more or less in so it's very important to get out to these towns and in and the cities and say, we gotta do more to clean up our waters. Um because like I say, we go into some of these bays and they're and all the eel grass is gone, and everything's all mocking. You used to be able to go swimming there, but there's no more nothing there but mud, and no one wants to swim in mud. And then you have all the vases of species that come in, then you have the green allergy comes in there, and then it just covers the whole bottom, and then it kills everything there. Nothing wants to live in shallow, murky, uh deep, muddy water. Uh, so everything dies. So um uh education for me is to uh make some of these towns uh dredge some of these bays. Um we've seen it through years that, you know, like in in Papua Nasset Bay, we have we had three islands inside in um New Seabury. If you've ever been in down to Cape Cobb, New Seabury is where all the million-dollar houses, billion-dollar houses is all all the land that they had taken. And uh, so we had three islands out there, and they wanted to get their bigger boats in there. So with the money that they have, they more or less uh got the town to take two of the islands out. Um so it's it's it's so now the the water used to directly flow, and and we had two rivers, two heron runs that go there. One goes to Bashwit River and one goes to Santuat River. So the water directly flowed right through the whole system. So when they took out the uh the two islands to make it flat and made it deeper, what it does now, it just comes in and it circles around. So it kind of killed the baits because that water is not flowing all the way up to where it used to. So in the last 60 years, this is what it's doing is spinning around. And the other part we have, uh, which is you know damaging, is you know, we have all the shorelines, they they start to corrode and everything. And this is where the oystery stuff starts to happen, is like if we could build up the some of that stuff with oyster shells and different shells that would hold the bank. But they they continue to add sand to it, and we have storms, and then it washes in. So we're washing at South Cape Beach, it comes seven miles down to uh Park Mesa Bay entrance, and then it comes in, and then every year you can see the sand just rolling and it just comes in and slowly uh brings the flat bigger and and kills the bottom of all the fish going in.

SPEAKER_06 55:13

Well, I think I think you're persuading people to pay more attention and and do something about this. I want to turn it over to our audience for a moment. Um, if you all have any questions, uh please raise your hand. And we have a we have a mic right here, so just hold on for the mic.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

Thank you all. Is that working? Thank you all for coming. You three are my heroes. Great, great what you do. Um, what I'm wondering, and I was gonna ask the question, but you answered it about the present administration and uh grants and money that should be available. Um, are there other sources uh for funding or for philanthropic organizations who know that would be really great and understand and appreciate what this is and and would be available to fund projects? If there are, I haven't found it yet. Um do they need to know? Do they need to be informed?

SPEAKER_05 56:18

They need to know and they need to to start cutting some checks. That would be on. You know, it even when you go to like a traditional lending department, aquaculture is viewed as higher risk than traditional farming. Um probably because it is. Um, I have way less control over my crop. I can't just walk my fields, you know, if it's too windy, if the tide is off, if the weather is bad, I can't get to anything. Um, I also, you know, if I had a cornfield, I wouldn't have all these people walking around in my cornfield where I do have people driving their boats over our leases, you know, put throwing a bottle over or, you know, dumping their beer over the side or going to the bathroom over the side of the boat.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Running over cages.

SPEAKER_05 57:11

Running over cages. Yeah. Yeah. We, you know, a cage full of oysters is at least a grand. Um, and if you've got a a farm that doesn't like you and they cut your buoy, which is not unheard of and has happened to us um a few times. Luckily, my brother is a diver and and can sometimes find them for us. Um, so it is high risk. I have very little control over, and and we're out there, at least one of us is out there every day, but we have very little control over our leases. Um but yeah, it's the funding is the big biggest part. But wouldn't we all ask for more money if there was something we could ask for? I think that would be it. And and so it seems sort of I don't know how to put it, but if that's all I need, then I'm doing pretty well. It would be nice if we had the opportunity to have a fund to pull from so that when shit hits the fan, I know I'm not supposed to say that.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

But but I had a did I had a different word.

SPEAKER_05 58:22

I know you really kept it together. I'm really proud of you. Um it would be great to have like an emergency fund on the outside to pull from. Um I assume that's what the USDA is for traditional farming. Um, but that's not something we have access to. But if you know any rich people, I'll I'm not I'm shameless.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

I I think it I think it's important to note that when they had experience an 80% loss that it takes three years for you guys to three years to recover from that.

SPEAKER_05 58:51

So if there was a fund like that that you could access when I might actually sleep through the night once in a while if I had a fund like that. Um yeah, it's it's it's you know, it's it's a big game of risk and you know it getting into it. And if you can't handle it, don't do it, but a little help would sure be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 59:10

Another question here.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

Um the oyster reef restoration. Can you describe what the cycles are that create the condition? You need that the silt the silting of the rivers or the silting of the bay. Uh compare it to thousand years ago versus today. Yeah. You know, I know indigenous people years ago built up shell middens in the river which produced calcium, leached it in and helped that, but the surfaces for the seed oysters to attach to. I'm just like to get a picture in my mind of what's changed or what what's at work to create the need for restoring reef.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

Um, well, first, I guess in reference to the the silting, I think uh all of the development that's happened over the last hundred years, a lot of imperricible hard surfaces. So every time it rains, um, that water uh flushes into the watershed um and creates mud and silt, and that gets washed out into Long Island Sound. Um, you know, a hundred years ago it was there was no paving, so the water was absorbed uh by the land. Um and so there's a lot more sediment being introduced into Long Island Sound, and that ultimately affects oyster growth. Um and it's not just sediment. Obviously, as we stated before, there's all sorts of you know, chemicals and pollution that gets mixed in there as well. Um, so you know, that's why there's a lot of dredging going on because they're having to basically pull all of that sediment that's getting flushed into Long Island Sound. Um, so it's a constant battle, you know, for the oyster for oyster reefs. If they're gonna be getting silted over continuously, they're they're gonna get basically get choked out. So um you need to um uh create, you know, you need to pick areas that potentially don't get silted over as often. So that's why we work with the Bureau of Aquaculture. They can help kind of determine ideal spots to put the shell down so it's less likely to get silted over. Um, but it still kind of happens. And so um, there's also things you can do to work the area. You we can work with commercial shell fishermen that'll kind of dredge up shell or the oysters and get them out of the mud um and then kind of lay them back down on top. So that's one thing um that we do. So it's it is kind of like farming your as someone who's you know works closely with oyster farmers but is not an oyster farmer, it's a tremendous set of work. They are not lying. Um, and so there's there's just you're always working. So if you're not um you know, out on the farm or whatever, but it's uh you know, that they're literally out on a boat dredging the oysters up, lifting them back up. So it's just um uh there's a lot of work into it. So I a lot of respect for what they do. Um, and 100% that you know when you buy an oyster, um, if you just think it's expensive, it's really not. You know, like she said, she touches one oyster 40 times. I don't think a farmer touches an ear of corn more than once or twice. Yeah, but um no, the rest so the right and just the fact that there's not a lot of natural oysters left. So um utilizing what is still growing in Long Island Sound and shelling up areas around where they're growing. Um they grow in reefs and clusters for a reason. They're more likely to survive. So if you have a few oysters over here and a few oysters over there, um just putting shell down is a good insure that they're gonna catch sets. So you need large populations um so that that spat doesn't have that far to travel.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:32

Yeah. And I think also, you know, now people are a lot of farmers are going out and buying seed, but traditionally people were gathering seed wild when there were more reefs. And so there was just more of a cyclical process of the oysters having baby oysters and attaching to the shells. And now there's a lot more help that's needed from farmers because we've really destroyed that ecosystem. So we are at time. I would like to thank all of you so much for being here today and sharing everything you did. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:15

Thank you for listening to this episode of Great Art, Big Ideas, presented by the International Festival of Arts and Ideas. If you like this series, make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And you can show your support by making a donation at artidea.org slash donate. The International Festival of Arts and Ideas thanks the hundreds of individuals whose support is foundational to our work, as well as our marquee sponsors. Yale University, the Community Foundation for Greater New Haven, the City of New Haven, the State of Connecticut, and the Seedlings Foundation. We are also grateful for the leadership support of the Sassafras Foundation, Roslyn Millsteinmeyer and Jerome Meyer, and Alexander Clark. Credit goes to audio editor Nike Connors, our stage manager Genevieve Peters, and our production manager, Kelsey Carboni. Other members of the media team include Quinn Bassett, Cliff Baird, and Dante Houghton. Thank you for listening.