Connecting employees with the right SUD care (feat. Marin Nelson & Ingrid Lindberg of Sobrynth)

DeAnn is joined by co-founders of Sobrynth, Marin Nelson and Ingrid Lindberg, to address some big questions, including one big one:

How can technology be leveraged to scale human-centered solutions and care navigation for employees and their families seeking support for substance use disorder while still maintaining the importance of personal connection and empathy?

Marin Nelson 

Co-founder and CEO of Sobrynth. 15+ years of enterprise sales career delivering 320% YoY growth and 8-figure SAAS deals. Leader at Salesforce, health tech, and social impact startups. 19 years in recovery.​

Ingrid Lindberg​ 

Co-founder of Sobrynth. Ex-customer Experience Officer for Cigna & Prime. Serial founder. 25 years of brand, marketing, and product experience primarily focused on the consumerization of healthcare, focusing on making healthcare more human. 

https://sobrynth.com
https://www.linkedin.com/company/sobrynth

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Music Created and Produced by Katie Hare.
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Transcript

DeAnn Knighton: 0:00

I'm very excited to introduce our guests today. Today I'm talking to the co founders of sobering, which provides 24/7 assistance for employees and their families who are seeking support with immediate substance use disorder needs and for employees who are sober curious. I'm joined by soberth co founders Marin Nelson and Ingrid Lindbergh. Maren is a former sober positive workplace guest, actually, and if you missed that episode with Marin, please go back and listen. In the episode, we discuss her story and the path that led her to be a founding member of sober force at Salesforce, one of the first of its kind workplace solutions for supporting Sud workplace recovery. Sud means substance use disorder Ingrid. Is a highly skilled leader and entrepreneur and has been at the forefront of many significant startups. She has extensive experience in branding, marketing and product development with organizations such as Cigna and prime. It's so great to have you both here. Thanks for having us. We're so happy to be here. It's great to be back. Yeah, I'm excited to learn more about what you're doing and the momentum that you're experiencing right now. So Ingrid, let's start this out with you. In learning a little bit more about you, reading your bio, I was drawn to the notion that you mentioned about making healthcare more human, and I think that might be a good place to start. I love it, and want to hear more about how that concept shows up for you and your work, and how that may have led you to this startup that you're a part of right now. I love that question. Thank you, DeAnn, making healthcare more human. I actually stare at the t shirt that I had made that says this that I hand out when I give big speeches. It's one of my favorites. When I entered healthcare 24 years ago, I had spent my career in financial services up to that point, and I remember walking into one of my first meetings and having absolutely no idea what anyone was talking about, the use of acronyms, the talking about numbers, really just the lack of personhood as people were discussing people, was really frightening to me. So I spent the last 24 years in healthcare, whether it was within health insurance companies, startup companies in healthcare and then running a consultancy for the last decade that did a lot of work with all of the healthcare ecosystem, and one of the things that I have always focused on is how to actually bring faces and names and stories to the numbers within healthcare. And I was always fascinated by how altruistic healthcare workers are, regardless of what part of the ecosystem they're in, but they get really far removed from the humanity of someone going through something, whether it is a diabetes struggle or a cancer diagnosis or in vitro. And so working towards making healthcare more human in the broader healthcare world has been very important to me, and when Marin approached me and asked me about whether or not I'd be willing to join her on her journey to start so Brent, it just made such perfect sense to me, because I think in this space, we have done a really good job of dehumanizing people who are struggling with substance use disorder. We have done a really good job of not paying attention to the scale and the human impact that substance use disorder has on a family, on a team, on a person. And so what a great fit right being able to take that how can we bring these stories to light and to life in a world where people have really been treated as numbers and something that needed to be solved in a basement, not out in public, yeah, oh, man, I love that. I have to say, it brought up for me. I so I'm a person in recovery who at different times have felt very close to my recovery and my experience, and I'm now also in school, being educated to become a counselor and working in internships and working with people who are struggling. And I have to say to your point there, there's an active effort on my part to still always stay connected to sort of the heart of what I'm doing. And this is someone who went through it, right? And it just shows how easy it can be to get that distance very quickly, especially when you just are kind of putting your head down trying to get boxes checked, all of that good stuff. So yeah, I love that. Well, thank you so Marin. I'm so glad to have you here again. I listened to that episode that we did, and I was reminded that we have a lot in common every time I hear that one. You know, obviously this area of focus for us is one area that we definitely align on. And I would love to hear how your story and your experiences have shaped the vision of sobering Thank you. Well, it's so good to be back. I feel like we just had a talk like yesterday, but it.

Marin Nelson: 5:05

yeah, you know, it's been it's a journey. And I think the more time that we are in this work at sobrant, the more reflections I'm going to have of my own personal lived experience and how it plays in because I never intended to bring recovery into my work life. That was not my plan. I was not someone who's like, Oh, I'm gonna go work in the recovery field. I kept it very separate, and I didn't hide my recovery in the workplace. But there really is never, or was never, a platform to share it. So I would find myself in these situations, and I knew, in theory, that there must be other sober people in the workplace, and there are definitely people struggling with substance use disorder, but I had no way of finding them, because where am I going to lead with that at a work meeting like you're not going to kick it off with although I was terrified I would one day like, Hi, I'm Mar and I'm an alcoholic. I was so scared that first year of my recovery that I was going to slip and say that in a meeting and be horribly embarrassed. I think it did happen once, but it must not have been that embarrassing, because I barely remember it. So you know my work experience, how they've informed the creation of sober and has been this reflection back of my 19 years of recovery and thinking about those spaces and times where I had to navigate pretty tricky situations for someone who is trying to stay sober. Someone did a post the other day on LinkedIn, and I was reflecting on all of those spaces that you have to navigate within, like beer kegs in the, you know, the work kitchen, because there was a party the night before and it was left over, and so they just rolled it into the kitchen. Into the kitchen, and then you're going down there to grab a sparkly water and you have to walk past the keg, and it's like, I don't want to see that now. I'm thinking about that, right? Or a bottle of champagne being sent for a job well done. And you're like, Well, cool, that was a waste of money. I wish you would have just sent me a check earning President's Club and having it be like a very booze based event, and not not feeling like a reward to someone who's in recovery, that feels like a big anxiety producing situation to navigate. So all of these moments that I never you know, it's complicated to talk about it, because I never wanted to come across like victimhood. It is my own responsibility to stay sober in whatever space I occupy, and also, there were lots of tricky situations that could have been more inclusive and could have made safer for employees like me and for the employee who's trying to find their sobriety or their footing, who show up at a happy hour that's hosted by their boss, and the only option going around is wine, and they just go, forget it. I guess I'll try again another day, right? So it's like, how can we make these small shifts so those experiences of staying sober in a workplace where, and I'll be honest, this isn't about, you know, I'm in sales. I've always been in sales, but before I entered sales, I was a nonprofit. And people will say to me, like, is this just because it's like, high tech sales, this is, like, this huge drinking culture. I'm like, Listen, this drinking culture situation is in any space, in academia, in attorney circles, in healthcare circles, in nonprofit circles, like, it is just everywhere. Statistics, hospitality, so, yeah, hospitality, construction. Like, yes, there are certain industries that have higher rates. But I don't want people to get tripped up of being like, Oh, it's a Silicon Valley problem, or, Oh, it's a construction problem. Like, no, this is just like the world at large and definitely the US. There's 46 million who are suffering with substance use disorder right now, and most of those individuals are in the workplace. 70% of them are in the workplace. So the numbers are astounding, right? One in 10 employees you can assume, have substance use disorder. And so how can we collectively make workplace a more safe and inclusive space for those employees who are sober and sober curious, so that they can be their best employee selves, because it actually just benefits everyone, like you're a more present and productive employee, if you're someone who's in recovery, and you feel supported in your recovery, like you're going to be a pretty committed employee, and you're going to produce really well,

DeAnn Knighton: 9:26

that actually leads me to think about your model. What has happened historically as it relates to the issue of substance use disorder? So often it's this pendulum swing that is like, Okay, everyone for themselves, or, Oh, we're going to shut the whole thing down. Let's you know, prohibition, right? There's like two choices within the equation that are so often. I think what we end up latching on to that is, so what creates the need for these more nuanced approaches to this issue? Because nobody wants that. That doesn't make sense. It's never going to work, right? Just say, okay, yeah, just don't have booze at work or anywhere near work. That doesn't make sense. How can we create spaces and understanding and awareness and take that little bit of extra time just pay attention and recognize some of these things. And it doesn't have to mean something bigger than that. It's a great question.

Marin Nelson: 10:18

It's very thoughtful. And you're right. This is not. We are not looking to be the alcohol police. This is not about removing all substances from the workplace at all that does not serve anyone. No one wants to be told what to do with their own choices when it comes to alcohol or other substances. That is not the goal. The goal is and the in the model is an a recognition that data shows that people are more likely to get sober through workplace intervention than family and friends. That's one data point. Data shows that employees in recovery save their employees $8,700 a year. I've seen higher numbers too, on average, because they are more productive, they turn over at lower rates, they are present, they take fewer days off. Their medical spend is less so there are a lot of great data points for why we should be encouraging our sober employees to stay sober, our struggling employees to get help and have easier pathways to getting help, and the impact to the broader set of employees that two and three people are impacted in their two and three in their families having substance use disorder. So arguably, this is like nearly ever, and I think that number is understated, but that's what the data says. You know, nearly everyone has a story, right? And so we're in this movement where we're told to bring our full selves to work, and yet, we haven't figured out how to talk about something that's impacting almost all of us. And so the sobering model is really around it's two parts. One part is the recognition of how critical it is to change culture to be recovery friendly. And so what does that mean? How do you gather? How do you help employees find each other? Like, what I was saying when I was like, how was I going to find people like me to go to the conference and, like, band together to navigate the happy hour where it feels like everyone's drinking and you feel like a weird outsider, but like, You got to be there for your work. You don't want to risk your sobriety. You know it's like, How much easier is that when you could just, like, find another sober friend to, like, walk around with, for example, how much easier is it to go to a company kickoff and have non alcoholic champagne presented as an option for you to grab without having to say, I'm sober, I can't do the toast. Why do you have a water bottle? Martin, that's so weird. It's like, just make it easy, right? So like these very small changes that are embedded within our culture, where today we celebrate with, we reward with we gather with alcohol. How do we make that inclusive of non alcoholic options? So that's one part culture change. How do we talk about it? How do we help each other? How do we normalize it? How do we destigmatize addiction? How do we recognize this as a disease state, not a moral failing, right? So that's the culture change. And then the other part of our solution is, how do we provide help and navigation at the time of need? So for us, that means we provide 24/7 365, care, navigation and coaching for employees and families, wherever they are in the spectrum. So to your point of like this black and white, either or this is like we are here to meet you with whatever your goal is. And maybe your goal is that you want to drink only three days a week, not seven days a week. Like, awesome. We can help you with that. Maybe your goal is that you want to take a month off and you're not really sure how to do that. We can help you with that. Like, maybe your goal is that you want to get your kiddo into the best inpatient care that you can find, and you don't know how to pick a place. We can help you with that. So there is a spectrum of use, because, like all diseases, there is a spectrum right of severity. And if we can have this conversation in the workplace before people have lost their jobs as a result of untreated substance use disorder, can we maybe change this trend line, which is continuing to accelerate up and instead reach people before they're in a clinical state of crisis. And we think we can. We think that by having this conversation openly, and normalizing this conversation, and making these pathways to care easier, then we can make these numbers change, the big picture numbers, right? Like we have too many people suffering in silence right now, we have to do better.

DeAnn Knighton: 14:46

I'm curious, how are the conversations going in spaces where people aren't familiar with this concept? Yeah,

Marin Nelson: 14:52

so it's going great. It's going fast. So that's awesome, because it means the market feels finally ready to. Have this conversation. So yay for that, for something that has been hidden in the basement forever, coming up, and I think that it's informed by the COVID crisis. The COVID crisis was a forcing function to talk about mental health in the workplace, and substance use disorder is a fast follow what we saw the market do, and the market still, to some extent, is doing is trying to use a one size fits all mental health solution to solve for substance substance use disorder and sober curiosity. And our perspective is that, because this is one in 10 employees who are actively sick with untreated substance use disorder, and of the 46 million who have Sud only 6% have sought treatment in the past year. This is too big of a problem and too big of a need to be an afterthought of a mental health first. Now that doesn't mean that we don't get the intersection. I am someone who has anxiety disorder that I treat and I have substance use disorder that I treat, and they first sure go hand in hand, and also my ways of treating them are different. And so I needed different pathways for both. And so we want to be another pathway, right? So if you can get sober through therapy, amazing, but maybe you need therapy, and also a local 12 step meeting and also an outpatient program to get you started, right? And so we need those care navigation pathways to be broader, specific to substance use disorder and dedicated to it. And that part, as far as how is it being received? Nearly every single HR leader we have spoken with gets it. They're like, Yep, I don't, you know. Now, I don't know if anyone will full out say I don't know what to do, but the truth is, like, we're expecting a lot of our HR leaders, like there most therapists are not even trained in substance use disorder as a specialty, right? So this assumption that everyone knows how to talk about if they're in the mental health field is not true. That's inaccurate. How do we expect our HR teams to know what to do and what to say if an employee comes in, especially if they're an HR leader of a multi state, right? Like if their employees are spread out across the US or all over the globe, how in the world are they supposed to know where to point someone so we are really trying to take that lift off of HR shoulders. We have a lot of compassion for what's being asked of them, and we want to be a partner in the effort to help employees, right? So where I would love to see more research done. So this will be my ask of anyone listening, who's a researcher we know and New York Times just came out with another research highlighted a new research that came out that connects untreated substance use disorder with earlier cancers, younger cancers. So there is direct correlation between moderate drinking, which is one drink or less for women, two drinks or less a day, sorry, this is a day for men to increase risk of colorectal cancer, which is scary, especially when I don't know about you, but I definitely know cases in my own community where young people are getting breast cancer and colorectal cancer, and now we know that alcohol is a factor in this. So there is this. It feels like the boogeyman of substance use disorder that lurks within health results but is not yet really fully understood collectively. If that makes sense, like we have the data that says it's connected to untreated or unmanaged, mismanaged diabetes and hypertension and heart disease and cancers and all right, all these disease states. But if you look at the claims data, you're not going to see substance use disorder. You're going to see blood pressure or right? So we just have work to do from how we make decisions of what benefits we purchase at companies is often based on claims analysis, and this is a tricky one, and so I think it means that it's left not dealt with when it just needs to be dealt with

DeAnn Knighton: 19:12

Ingrid, I'd love to hear from you on this. It's kind of a big question that we won't fully answer, but you know, as someone who has navigated the complexities of private care public care and approaches to health care and solutions for problems that are complex, like this one. Where do you anticipate that we're going to see improvements in the way that is headed, and where do you think we'll continue to see obstacles? That's

Ingrid Lindberg: 19:37

a massive question. You know that DeAnn, it's not fair, so I'm going to break it into three parts, right? So there's the existing silos, there's what we're hoping to solve with sober and then there's the obstacles. Can we flip it that way? And we'll do that. So the existing silos, right? With the existing silos, I actually think there are three, because we have the private sector, meaning all of the. Pay for treatment worlds that exist, we have the private sector with a sub of Employee Benefits, right? And then we have public sector. So it's actually three, because I split that employee benefits out, because they don't actually always talk to the private sector offerings, right? So you've got those three sets of solutions right now that are all completely siloed and don't really spend much time together figuring out how to help anyone navigate that. And if you start thinking about the complexity that sits within each of those right to your point, maybe there's peer coaching, maybe there's inpatient, maybe there's outpatient, there's, I mean, there's so many pieces that fall off of each of those three silos. What we're trying to solve with sobering is actually acting as the connector for employees to all of those options and all of those opportunities. If you think about you know, we, we are currently building relationships with recovery community organizations across the country, right? We're matching our peer recovery coaches to those rcos, because we see ourselves as a feeder for people who need help, who may not know that that's an option for them. We see our coaches as person who can help connect to what is the best solution for you based on what your needs are and what your wants are. So those silos, those three sets of silos, I don't anticipate those coming any closer organically, unless it's mandated at the federal level. Right until then, we have to create that wrapper around them so that people can actually find the care and the help that they need for themselves or for another. And right now, as you know, it is absolutely impossible to do that right? You can't necessarily find information that is up to date. I was spending time, and have been spending an enormous amount of time on all sorts of different websites that are current aggregators. Date, you know, update, last update was 2021, 2022, you start making phone calls. It's not only that they're not available, or there isn't a bed available, or the meeting room is no longer correct. It's at the organization no longer exists. So if we can figure out a place to solve that for people, I feel like that's one of the biggest opportunities that sits here is, can we just take the lift of that navigation off of human resources, off of you as an employee, because especially if you sit in I'm a Gen Xer, I sit in this beautiful sandwich generation, where we are taking care of our parents, the boomers, who have some of the highest substance use disorder rates of any generation we've seen, and we're taking care of our kids, and we all know what it looks like today, right? So it's that up, down, over my colleagues, my employees, there's so much of a lift that can be brought simply by providing navigation and taking that work off of your shoulders as a human. Last piece is that obstacle, right? The obstacles, I think what's really interesting, and I'm brand new to this space, right? I've worked in healthcare forever, recovery, substance use disorder. All of these terms were never discussed in any of the boardrooms that I've sat in for the last 20 years. This was always something that was a sub bullet to behavioral health, not mental health, behavioral health, right? So using the terminology that is still used to this day in a lot of these very large healthcare organizations, I think that the obstacles that we're going to see are a this does need to be held to a space where it can have its own set of solutions. It cannot always be tucked under mental health. So we're going to have to help convince the marketplace that this is really important where it sits and because it sits on its own. And the argument that I would give is we don't just have cancer care, we have breast cancer care, we have colon cancer care, we have bone cancer care, right? And those are very specific specialties that help people navigate very complex situations. I would say substance use disorder sits there, but that's an obstacle. To try to teach people that that's how we should actually be looking at this right? Let's give it the space that it needs, and then secondarily, it's interesting to me, because when we first started talking to some organizations, they were pretty hesitant to talk to us, and there was a perception that we were going to take. And one of the obstacles we've been facing that I think is fascinating, but we've really been able to help organizations navigate this is, if we do our job, right, we're bringing people to you that need help. We're not here providing the actual solution. We're just connecting people in your community to you when they couldn't find you on their own because they didn't have time, they didn't have capacity, they didn't have the wherewithal. So, right? That's that's a lot in that question of what's happening between the public and the private sector, but I think that's what's going to happen. I think that's what we're going to see. What do you think, DeAnn, you're deep in this? Couldn't

DeAnn Knighton: 24:50

agree more with some of the shifts that we're seeing around the alignment of the mental health, behavioral health umbrellas, and it's fascinating. Right? Because I have to tell you, I have kind of two perspectives on it. My work is CO occurring disorder treatment, so people who are dealing with more than one issue, right? So within that, there's this piece of me that says, well, care has to be integrated. It has to be because you're one human being, so your care plan has to be integrated to you. But then when you think of it in context of like, what's reality and how we operate with the current situation, that we have. Everything that you're saying resonates with me as well. You know, it can be easy for me to feel like, why is there so much stigma on substance use that doesn't need to be there? Is it because we have isolated it? But there's also that reality, that it is different and nuanced and complicated. It's an interesting thing to reflect on. And Marin, I don't know if you have anything you wanted to add here on this particular topic before we move on,

Marin Nelson: 25:52

just that. My hope is that we the collective, we can bring a growth mindset and an openness to how we're going to collectively solve this problem. Because, to Ingrid's point, our goal is to be a connector, so that people are not left alone with Google to try to figure it out, because that's what's happening, right? And so that awareness of like, what is missing was my experience in CO founding sober force and being president to sober force at Salesforce, and I, because I was a face of it, and a lot of ways would get phone calls from employees who were struggling and looking for help. And so they'd call me, they weren't going to call HR, and if they called our EAP, they they were not happy with that experience, because the EAP was like, here are some random treatment centers that are covered by your insurance. Here's your insurance phone number. Go call and attain Grace point. They'd go call, and as most people know, a lot of times, that data is out of date even with your insurance company, the provider directory is not always current. And so they'd call and there wouldn't be availability, or they wouldn't get an answer, or they wouldn't take their teenager, and they're like, What the heck, I just used the resource I was supposed to use, and now I feel even more alone and more overwhelmed. And so then they call me, what do I do? Where do I send my kid? And I'm like, I don't I don't know. Like, I didn't even go to treatment myself. My journey was 12 step, so I felt terrible that I couldn't be more effectively helpful for these employees who were calling me asking for help, who were very vulnerable and didn't feel like they knew where else to turn. And that was what led to lots of discussions with Ingrid, and led to, then creating sobering together, which was like, how is that the best we can do right now? Like, and everyone has their, I think, their own lived experience and so so personal, right? A lot of people who work in recovery are also in recovery themselves. And so I think we can, we can be and maybe it's true for any other illness too, like, well, I did chemo and I did this, and therefore that's the solution. And so I think people think their own journey is can be the solution for everyone. And so I think what my hope is that we can collectively recognize that everyone's sobriety journey is personal and can look different from each other, and they can all be right? There is not one path, right? So while 12 step works for me, and it's still something I'm a part of, I am not one of those people who says it's the only way, and if you don't do it, you're never going to stay sober, because I think that's really unfair, right? So how instead, can we say, hey, how do we collaborate and share our best practices together and recognize that there are 46 million people out there to help and then all of the family members who have been impacted, and how can we do a better job connecting with each other to best serve these individuals who need help. That's what my hope is. I was

DeAnn Knighton: 29:06

just thinking about those that I've talked to with chronic pain, and how often when they maybe discuss, hey, I have this going on for me. The common complaint you hear is like everybody is giving them their solution. Oh, I had neck thing, here's what I did, but it doesn't always feel supportive to that person receiving it. It just, it just gets more and more annoying, probably the more it happens. So I don't know, I think of that relating here to some degree, right? There is something beautiful about people who understand what you're going through. But there also has to be that feeling of like, this is also about you, not about that person's experience, whatever that was. DeAnn,

Marin Nelson: 29:44

I don't know if I share this with you the last time we spoke, but you know, I I think my passion for advocacy of everyone having their own right to their own path comes from my own experience when I was. 24 and in New York City and going to a treatment facility for an assessment, and the licensed alcohol drug counselor was doing their job. I don't fault them. This is how they were trained, right? And they did my assessment. They said, wow, yeah, you are drinking a dangerous amount, like you should probably go to inpatient. And I was like, yeah, no, I'm not going to do that. And they're like, Okay, well, then you've at a minimum, need to go to outpatient. I said, Yeah, I'm not going to do that. Like, I don't actually feel like that's what I need. I want to stop drinking. I want help. I know I need help. I know I can't do this anymore. It's not safe, but I love my job. I'm not interested in leaving my job. I don't feel like I need outpatient. And I will never forget this woman like it almost makes me teary for my like, 24 year old self, who is so scared and so vulnerable in that moment asking for help and being told by a professional well, then you're probably going to drink again. You're probably not going to stay sober if you're not willing to do this. And I was so flipping mad, and I was like, watch me stay sober, and I have stayed sober for 19 years since that spite, okay, spite. I will never drink again. No, luckily, have other reasons now, but right that I marched myself to a meeting in New York City, and I cried in the meeting, and I shared what had just happened, and I was like, please talk to me after the meeting if you have stayed sober through me, like through AA, because I just got told that I'm doomed, and I refuse to believe that that's true. But I had an example of a dad who got sober through the 12 step rooms, and uncles who got sober through the 12 step rooms, and my dad didn't go to treatment center, so I knew it was possible, but what if I hadn't had that example? So that's what fires me up, as I'm like, How dare you tell someone, and I get that person who's probably trying to just help, and based on data, maybe I was more, I don't know, but like, treatment's not a solve all, catch all, either, right, most people go to treatment go back seven times like we don't have a silver bullet for substance use disorder. So can we stop trying to prescribe to everyone what they have to do, and instead, can we listen and say, what are you willing to do? What do you want to do? What works for your life, and then find a pathway for them. Because there are lots of different options out there, but that's the work that our coaches are trained in, is how to listen and then leverage the resources in that person's community to help get them to the thing that they're willing and wanting to do.

DeAnn Knighton: 32:35

Well, you know, I'd love to pivot this a little bit, because I think it really plays into this. I'd like to have you both comment on this. But you know, this podcast, my brother is kind of the technology side of this equation, and he comes from that viewpoint, and I come from sort of the lived experience side. He has a lot of the human side too. So I'm not going to say he doesn't also have that. But around here, we kind of have felt like there's room for all things in the solution, and even the podcast slogan is a little bit of technology and science, but mostly storytelling and heart. And so it's this idea that all of those things can live together. They're not mutually exclusive. It's all hands on deck related to solving problems. But that said, I have encountered myself that when I'm talking to individuals, they can often feel kind of conflicted about the role of technology solutions in this bigger problem, particularly those maybe in the clinical side that are so believe so much in in the power of that human human connection, which is powerful and is incredibly important. But it can almost be this dismissal that there are not things, from a technology standpoint, that can also help to support and build upon what happens through that human connection. And so when I think of what you've described as your project, I see that you know that aggregate, aggregator piece that you were talking about that's just an accelerator to help put together that bigger piece of the human connection. So it kind of sounds like an outdated question or maybe past, but I don't believe we are. Can you speak to your perspective on the role of technology and promoting human connection, healing and care?

Marin Nelson: 34:09

I'll start with the first part, and then I'm going to have Ingrid speak to the the how sobering is doing it, but just for the framing of lived experience, of technology being the point of connection between humans. We use Slack at Salesforce, for the sober force group, to communicate with each other. That is technology that scaled across the globe that all 75,000 employees had access to, and we chose to use that channel in a public way so that everyone could see the conversation we were having, because we knew, due to stigma, there would be at least 10x if not 20x watching from the sidelines, not joining the group as a member. So not an email list you'd have to sign up for to get and then be associated to, but a public chat. Fact that everyone could watch and gain from and that turned out to be true. People would then, months into it, say, I've been watching from the sidelines. I'm really proud to say I've 60 days sober. It's because of this group that I had the courage to stop drinking. If we would have made that group private, or only meet in person, or only have write a phone call, we would have left out all of those individuals who, because of this technology, could benefit from the conversation that we were having at the end of the day. It was still human to human connection, but the technology was a way to get everyone connected, right? It was a way to get everyone the information that they needed. So I guess I'll just leave it there. I just wanted to frame up like that's a great example, I think, of how you can use technology in a way that gave us much greater results. We had 500 employees actively join as members within five months time. That would not have happened if we would have done this in an analog way.

Ingrid Lindberg: 36:08

So I think there's two pieces to this. DeAnn number one is it's always about tech equal scale, right? Tech allows us to scale humans. Right? Humans have limited ability to scale. Tech has endless ability to scale. So where can we take pieces that can make it easier for our people to be able to reach more people more rapidly? I think that's always a great solution, right? The proverbial tech and touch, when we start getting into what we're seeing some people do with AI and rushing to adopt still a pretty strong belief structure that we've gotta establish some hardcore guard rails and policies. We have to make sure that it aligns with our objectives and our ethical standards. And we know that when people are in an emergent moment, right? We know that they actually want to get to a human. We don't have that data in this space, because this space hasn't existed before sobering started, right? So taking all of our years of experience on what has happened within healthcare with every other disease state, when you're in an emergency situation, you need a human. And I think this will just be, you know, we'll see if I'm making it the right bet here. This is the brain, right? My belief structure is that we're going to see a lot of emergent situations. I need help now. So if we can figure out how to rapidly assist our touch, our humans, our coaches, to be able to serve our clients as fast as we can in the moments where they need us. That's the perfect marriage of, how can we use tech to actually allow that human to human connection at scale? Because if we don't use tech to enable the scale, then we just won't be able to solve for enough people fast enough. So that's how we're thinking about it, right? Tech and touch tech for scale. Ai with guardrails. That's

DeAnn Knighton: 38:09

great. Well, thank you. This has been amazing. I'm so excited to see and be on the sidelines watching what y'all are doing, and I appreciate you being here to chat with us today, and maybe we'll do this again down the line, when some things have evolved even more. Who knows anything else from the two of you that you'd like to say before we get out of here today?

Marin Nelson: 38:31

Just so we would love to talk to you. So if you are an individual who is in recovery, or a sober ally or a leader in a company where you're like, Yeah, we need to be having this conversation. We'd love to chat. We'd love to help. The data shows that there's a need for a tremendous amount of education on how to do this in the workplace, and that's exactly what we're here for. So it's okay to reach out and say, I have no idea how, but I know we need to, let's talk. We welcome those those messages, so please do reach out to us. You can find us on LinkedIn, and we'll make sure DeAnn has our link so you can contact us, so that we can come in and and help you know, our hope is that every company becomes a recovery, friendly workplace, and that that is just the norm and not an outlier experience. So we hope to be in talks with anyone who's listening, who's interested.

Ingrid Lindberg: 39:29

You know, I think the only thing that I would add to this, just in wrapping DeAnn, is I do a shout out to all of my peers out there in corporate America. This is not something that those who are in the recovery community needs to be doing on their own. It's actually up to us as allies to create this space and to be able to make these changes. So come and join right this is about us actually being aware and making changes within the organizations that we lead to ensure that work is safe for all.