Recovery Discovery | "AI: clinical application + skeptics"

DeAnn Knighton and Craig Knighton, co-hosts of the Recovery Discovery Podcast, discuss their personal and professional journeys and interest in the current innovations in addiction treatment. DeAnn shares her six-year sobriety journey and her career pivot toward clinical mental health counseling. Craig talks about transitioning from engineering to an internship at Hazelden Betty Ford, focusing on addiction research. They explore the potential of AI technology in recovery, using ChatGPT to simulate a conversation about alcohol consumption. The AI provides accurate, empathetic, and non-judgmental advice, highlighting its potential to offer safe, stigma-free support for those seeking help.

ABOUT THE PODCAST: 

Recovery Discovery (brought to you by Show Up and Stay) is a podcast series dedicated to exploring addiction through the lens of science and technology. DeAnn Knighton is a recovering human and a clinical mental health counselor in the making. She is joined by co-host and Show Up and Stay co-founder Craig Knighton. Craig is an engineer, a technology expert, and a world-class big brother inspired by scientific and technological advancements that will change how we think about and treat substance use disorder.

If you have questions or comments or would like to be a guest on the Recovery Discovery Podcast, send an email to:
deann@showupandstay.org

More information about our project is available at:
https://www.showupandstay.org/
https://www.soberpositiveworkplace.org/

For podcast updates, follow us on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/showupandstayorg/

Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
https://www.hare.works

Transcript

DeAnn Knighton: 0:00

Hi. This is the recovery discovery podcast brought to you by show up and stay. This is a podcast series dedicated to exploring addiction through the lens of science and technology. We will explore innovations, clinical advancements and scientific discoveries that are changing the way we treat and support recovery. I'm your host, deannnighton, and I am joined today by my co host Craig Knighton, believe it or not, show up and say is in its fourth year, and when we first started the podcast, it was much more a narrative focused podcast telling stories of individuals at the early stages of recovery. As we've evolved. We have added additional series, including our sober, positive workplace series, which we most recently wrapped up, which was focused on increasing inclusion and awareness of people in recovery and who don't drink in the workplace. We now today. First, let me say hi to Craig, who's here with us today. Hey, Craig, hi, DeAnn. I'm so excited to do this with you. As always, for those who don't have a history listening to us on prior episodes, we are siblings. Also co founders of show up and stay and have been working on this project together for four years. Just to give a little bit of background on me, I'm a human in recovery for just about six years now, I was actually just pulling up, speaking of technology innovations, I was actually just pulling up my Nomo app. It's backwards for you, Craig, which tells me how many days it has been since I had a drink of alcohol, which is 2200 and there's three Yeah, six years, 73 months, 2233 days, 53,613, I'll save you. We won't get into the minutes and the seconds. But yeah, I have had this since the get go, and it's really cool. It's something I don't look I kind of forget a lot. So it's nice to have these moments when I can go back and look at that. And now, the guy who created this has a little picture of himself and his kid at the bottom that says, I'm not a company, I'm just a guy. So we run on donations. Please support us. I probably need to support him, because I'm now six years in using his technology. Yeah,

Unknown: 2:24

but not every day. You don't

DeAnn Knighton: 2:27

every day. But still, I appreciate it. It's made a difference for me. You can go back and listen to other episodes of show up and stay to hear a lot more about my personal story. Where I'm more focused now is I've been doing a career pivot, and I'm moving towards working as a clinical mental health counselor, and been doing my graduate school education at Hazelden Betty Ford graduate school, which focuses on CO occurring disorders as well as integrated recovery, which was something that really appealed To me because of the overlap of both subjects. So although the focus for us has typically been substance use disorder, primarily on this podcast, we also talk a lot about other things tied to the world of behavioral health and mental health, because it all overlaps in so many ways. So yeah, Craig, I wonder how you would feel about sharing your most recent experience transitioning from engineer and professional to independent contractor and intern,

Unknown: 3:32

especially, yeah. Speaking of career changes, I have made a few here lately, including retiring, which is a really big step, but I am still way too young to truly be retired. So as you mentioned, I am continuing to do work both in the engineering field for clients, provider actually in the sleep space, but also for Hazelden, Betty Ford, where I've joined the research team, there as an intern, an unpaid intern, to learn the art of research, especially as it relates to addiction and addiction studies. So excited to be part of that team, and excited to be supporting some of their research initiatives that are both underway, as well as a new multi year project that will be beginning here in the very near future.

DeAnn Knighton: 4:29

Wonderful. Alright, well, I hope you don't mind me asking you this, but I I know that for me, I had to do a lot of reassessing and recalibrating when I made my shift in particular, into how I learn and how I consider my role in the learning process and being obviously much more open and receptive to what others can teach me about an area that I'm not as familiar with, but also that feeling a little bit challenging too at the same time there, there are days where. Are, I kind of just wake up ready to hit the ground running, and I have to realize, like, kind of slow myself down a little bit, but I know that overall, in the long run, I think it's been a really healthy thing for me. But some days it's harder than others. I wonder what that's been like for you.

Unknown: 5:18

Yeah, especially as an intern, the assumption is that I don't really know anything about this, and that's a safe assumption. I think you and I are wired a little differently. There are certainly elements of that that hit home on my ego, but they tend more to relate to my technical skills and trying to put those skills to work for the organization and and having those technical skills underestimated or challenged, right? That that gets at my my core identity, but because I am so new to addiction and addiction research and the work that they do, I can just open it up and soak it all up like a sponge, right? It really, I don't have any imposter syndrome because I didn't claim that I knew anything about any of this, right? Nor is it part of my lived experience. Even, you know, I'm, I'm an old engineer, and so it's, it's technology that is near and dear to my heart, and science has always been a passion of mine. So the that's really maybe more where I've had to adjust and recalibrate and realize that nobody in this organization does know me, or anything that I've done in my technical career, so maybe I need to be patient with them as well and help them understand how I can contribute.

DeAnn Knighton: 6:52

Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. I think that that is similar in the sense of like, the part I can relate to is that feeling like I want to add value and struggling being in spaces where I don't feel like other people can see my value. I It's kind of how I'm wired to be allowed in those spaces, is that I contribute and that I have things to offer. So that definitely hits for me at times, but is has definitely gotten better with time. I also think about how funny it is, even just at the start of this podcast, I will say at the beginning of the podcast, I was obviously much more narrative, focused and very introspective about my own journey. And not to say that that doesn't play a part now, but it has been interesting to see how much my brain has kind of shifted over the last four years, and how much I realized very quickly that I didn't know I could speak from a place of my own experience, and always feel confident that that was a place that I could speak and feel good about what I was saying, and then moving into kind of these broader topics, definitely feeling some of the imposter syndrome kick in, kind of even shut me down a little bit for a while. While I was starting to dig into so much content for school and on this topic that it was almost like overload. So then when it came to like needing to distill anything down or sharing it, it felt extremely overwhelming to me, and that was strange, because that's not usually an experience I have. Usually, I have no problem finding words and to find myself, you know, kind of tongue tied that way. It reminded me a lot of that, that phase of like learning, where it's like, you are actually more confident when you don't know what you don't know, but then once you know what you don't know, it's like, Oh, crap. Now we're in trouble.

Unknown: 8:46

Well, given the fact that we're planning to talk about AI today, I think we'll both be in the category of knowing what we don't know and knowing just how much there is to learn about some of the innovations that are happening, and that's for sure.

DeAnn Knighton: 9:02

And I think that's what's so cool about this, is like, that's the way I think about this too. It's certainly there are areas of this topic that I know more about than others, but there's so much I don't know and understand. And I am excited to approach this, like, with a beginner's mind, and bring everybody along with us. And yeah, so that being said, you know, as we kind of teed up what we wanted to focus on here, I think it'll be broad range of things, with technology at the center, but also overall science, innovations in general, potentially developments in the space of recovery and substance use disorder. I will say, just for the audience, you and I have a strong interest and show up and stay in general, has always had a strong interest in sort of what happens post acute treatment, that process of reintegrating back into life, reintegrating as a human in recovery, what that looks like three, 612, months down the road. So we. We'll be digging into things that hit kind of, I think, on all of the different phases of that process and what is out there that is being developed. There has been so much in the last five years that is just really amplified. I think the need for tools like this to help us understand what's even out there. You know, I think of clinicians who are trying to know what to tell their clients about. That might be exciting. I think, of people who are struggling themselves and looking for unique ways to get better. So I think it could be, you know, anyone who's just interested in the importance of this topic, but in particular, some of the different things that are coming up in the space, I think this will be a perfect place to be. So we're glad you're here. Thank you for being here. So with that being said, Should we get into our first episode? Craig, sure. Let's do it. I'm gonna have you tea. This one up a little bit. This is exciting for me, because it is definitely talking about putting me outside of my comfort zone, um, it's a little bit of an area where I would say Craig and I are, like, kind of in different lanes. But I'm going to say I don't think I'm as far away from Craig as he thinks, because I have spent some time with people on this topic who, like, if you and I are like, an inch apart my I have spent time, yes, so that made me feel better, right where I was like, Oh no, I'm I'm like, further along than some but there still is a level of skepticism, especially given the fact that I'm putting a lot of time and energy into training myself to be able to do some of the things that this particular thing can help do. So, you know, it's interesting to explore, so let me turn it over to you, and have you kind of set this up, and what got us here today.

Unknown: 11:45

So the background is that my brother had recently gone through some back surgery, and he was in recovery, and so another brother and I traveled to spend some time with him, and there's a lot of time when you're in spending time with somebody who's recovering from a surgery or physical illness. There's a lot of time and a lot of things to talk about. And of course, at one point in the conversation, it naturally drifted to talking about AI technologies, and one of our brothers has had a lot of experience in the healthcare space and but he didn't really see the kind of opportunity that he he thought might eventually exist in the current technology, you know, the idea of Being able to talk to a bot, or, you know, to chat with something that sounds and seems to be human and to like explore your health related topics, right? Not even thinking about diagnosis or anything like treatment at all, but just to satisfy your curiosity the same way you would if you went online and you just started googling stuff, right? That sort of exploration of how you're feeling and and what might be going on in your body, and the kind of things that you'd want to do to to self educate yourself before maybe talking to a professional. So I had recently heard another podcast in which they talked to chatgpt that happened to be the particular technology they were using at the time in this sort of interactive way. And I was surprised how much progress had happened, like how natural it was to actually talk to this thing as if it were a person, and to have it talk back to you in a way that showed a very natural interest in what you were talking about and drew you into answering more questions and kind of exploring the topic in a very natural way. And I by the time we were done, I think they'd become converts where before, they were skeptical that maybe this could someday, maybe it'll be interesting. But you know, it really wasn't ready to have any kind of impact on clinical care. By the end, our more skeptical brother was even speculating that for simple problems, maybe we could even go right to getting to a prescription just by having a interactive conversation with technology like this that would help diagnose a UTI, or some of those things that we already all know what we have And but we have to still go through the formality of actually physically visiting a clinician or not. Now, a lot of times these things are done with tele visits instead. So I saw that. I saw our brothers go from being very skeptical at the beginning that this could be used. Full to that aha moment happened just in like 1015, minutes. So I thought it might be fun to have that same conversation with you, to try the technology out and see what happens.

DeAnn Knighton: 15:15

I think so too. Okay, so just so everyone knows you are going to be experiencing this with us. We have not done any setups or tests. So there could be things that don't go exactly right, but that's all right, but this will be a chance if you are sitting there already feeling yourself skeptical, let's see what you think about this. Another mention I'll say is, when we talk about AI technology in this space, or any space, there's different ways to utilize it, right? So, so like Craig set up very well, this is definitely more about utilizing the tool as an interactive resource to help people move towards their goals or recovery, or whatever it is that they are needing to find when they go out looking for answers. Is that, does that sound right? Craig, it

Unknown: 16:02

sounds good. So I think we want to have personas in mind, right? So I think we're thinking of the AI is like a friend or a confidant or or even somebody with a little bit of clinical knowledge about recovery. And then I think you probably need to pick a character. I'm ready. You already know who it is. How would you describe this? So

DeAnn Knighton: 16:29

my persona? So I actually just am actually hearkening back to the early days for me, when I went to the internet one day and put in. How do I find treatment? And what would it mean? And tried to find answers that way, with a whole bunch of search engine responses popping back up and trying to figure out what was available to me. So I will. I'll focus, though more on the vein of struggling with the idea of whether or not I have an issue related to alcohol. How does that feel? Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know what that what that might mean. How would I begin to evaluate that, and what does that mean for me moving forward, that that's kind of the way I was thinking about it,

Unknown: 17:19

okay? And now, on the flip side, we get to customize your experience a little bit too, because one of the things you get to choose is the voice that you want to talk. And it's interesting. It surprised me how much personality they're able to put into these voices, not just in gender. You know, is it a male voice or a female voice, or is it? Does it have that vaguely European accent that we all seem to like? But even just personality can come through in a voice. And so you can even start by picking the personality of the person that you want to talk to. So I want to play some of the voices for you, and you can pick the one that you like best once see how that goes. I'm not sure which of the first personalities here are going to pop up, but let's just listen to a few of them and we'll pick the one that you like best. Okay, what's up? Feel free to ask me about anything that's on your mind. I'm ready to go. Okay, that one's described as savvy and relaxed. How's your day going? I'm really looking forward to working on some cool stuff together. That's breeze. They are animated and earnest. I'm looking forward to working together. Let's figure out where to start. And that's spruce. They are calm and affirming.

DeAnn Knighton: 18:42

I think I need common. I know that I need common affirming. I need common affirming. The first one reminded me too much of myself, that's fair, no. And I talked to myself, wait, I get enough of that. Yeah, who needs more of that? But this is also interesting, right? Because there's a whole realm of like, when people seek help, looking for the right match for them in terms of the type of therapeutic relationship they want, and if it is calm and affirming or supportive, or whatever those different indicators might be. And isn't

Unknown: 19:13

it so much easier to explore 10 different personalities that way and find it rather than to have to actually talk to 10 different therapists. What it is that you're looking for, that's

DeAnn Knighton: 19:26

fair. That's fair. Hi, are you there?

Unknown: 19:39

Hey, yeah, I'm here. What's up?

DeAnn Knighton: 19:43

Oh, yeah, hi, this is DeAnn. Do you have a name?

Unknown: 19:48

Oh, good question. You can just call me chat GPT or chat for short, I don't have a personal name, but I'm here for whatever you want to chat about. Okay?

DeAnn Knighton: 20:01

Okay, well, I wanted to ask today, I have been starting to feel concerned that I might be drinking too much alcohol, and I wanted to see if you could give me information on that.

Unknown: 20:15

Oh, absolutely, I'm glad you brought that up. So there's a lot to consider, but we can start with some basics like what counts as moderate versus heavy drinking and how it affects your health. If you want, we can talk through some signs to watch for, or even strategies to cut back if that's something you're interested in. And of course, I can point you to some great resources or guidelines. Let me know what angle you want to start with, and we can jump right in.

DeAnn Knighton: 20:49

Let's start with just evaluating the difference between moderate and heavy drinking. So I have some idea.

Unknown: 20:56

You got it. Okay, so generally, moderate drinking is considered up to one drink per day for women and up to two drinks per day for men. Heavy drinking is more than that, usually around eight or more drinks per week for women and 15 or more for men. Of course, there's some nuance with things like binge drinking or how alcohol affects you individually, but those are the broad strokes. If you want to dig into specific types of drinks or situations, we can definitely get more detailed.

DeAnn Knighton: 21:35

No, I think that's okay. That helps to answer my question. I'm wondering, how do I determine if I would benefit from getting support for my drinking?

Unknown: 21:49

Oh, good question. Okay, so one of the main things to look at is how your drinking is affecting your life, if it's causing problems with your health, relationships or responsibilities. That's a sign, even if you're just feeling uneasy about how much you're drinking, that's totally valid. You can also look at things like how easy it is to cut back, or if you feel like you're relying on alcohol to unwind. If any of that sounds familiar, it might be worth talking to someone or exploring some resources, and there's no pressure. Just figuring out what feels right for you is a great first step. If you want to explore specific tools or approaches, we can do that too.

DeAnn Knighton: 22:41

I'm interested in treatment, but to get started today, can you give me some ideas of things that I could do on my own to maybe start addressing this problem?

Unknown: 22:52

Oh, absolutely, great idea. So one really effective thing is to set some small, specific goals around drinking, like decide on a number of alcohol free days each week, or set a limit on how much you'll drink in one sitting. Another great tip is to find a replacement activity for times when you normally have a drink, like going for a walk, trying a new hobby, or even just drinking a non alcoholic beverage you enjoy. And if you want, we can talk about apps or resources that can help you track your progress. The key is starting small and being kind to yourself as you figure it out. If any of that sounds interesting. We can brainstorm some specifics.

DeAnn Knighton: 23:45

Yeah, I would be interested maybe in some of the technology options that you mentioned that can help with tracking.

Unknown: 23:52

You got it. There are some awesome apps out there for tracking alcohol consumption and setting goals. One popular option is an act called Drink control. It helps you log drinks, track patterns and even convert them into units for a clearer picture. Another good one is sunny side, which focuses on mindful drinking and offers coaching and reminders. If you want something super simple, you could even use a habit tracker or a Notes app with a daily check in. There's a bunch of options. So if you have a particular style or feature in mind, I can help you narrow it down.

DeAnn Knighton: 24:38

Okay, what if I'm not able to do it on my own. What if that doesn't work? What do I do next?

Unknown: 24:45

Ah, good question. If you find it tough to manage on your own, that's totally normal. The next step could be reaching out to a professional like a counselor or a support group. There. Are even online programs and virtual meetings. If you prefer something more flexible, the key is to remember you're not alone, and there's no one size fits all answer. Sometimes, just having a conversation with someone who's been there can be a huge help, if you want, we can talk about specific types of support, like finding a good therapist or checking out groups like moderation management or even Alcoholics Anonymous. There's a ton of options, and we can find something that feels right for you.

DeAnn Knighton: 25:42

Do you have the availability or the ability to look at resources in my community?

Unknown: 25:50

Oh, absolutely. I can help with that. If you let me know your general area, I can look up local resources like support groups, counselors or even specific programs, there are usually some great options nearby, whether you're looking for something formal or more casual. Just let me know what kind of vibe you're after, and I can get more specific.

DeAnn Knighton: 26:17

Yeah, I'm in Salt Lake City, and I really need something that isn't going to impact my life or my day to day, I'm very busy.

Unknown: 26:27

Got it okay? So there are definitely options that are flexible and can sneak right into your busy life. For instance, there are online counseling platforms like better help or talk space that let you connect with a professional on your own schedule. There are also apps that offer short, guided check ins and support so you can work on things in small chunks whenever you have a moment. And Salt Lake City has some fantastic local resources for support groups and community centers that are pretty low key and flexible. If you want, I can find a few specific options that focus on convenience and minimal disruption.

DeAnn Knighton: 27:16

Yeah, I you know right now, I'm just feeling a little bit overwhelmed with all of this information. I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do next.

Unknown: 27:25

Oh, I totally get that. It's a lot to take in, especially when you're already busy and feeling overwhelmed. How about this? We can start with just one small step that feels manageable, if you want, I can suggest one simple thing to try, and we can check in from there. Or if you want me to help prioritize the information, we can figure out the most important piece to focus on first, just let me know what feels right, and we can go from there. So I muted it so we could talk a little bit. What do you think

DeAnn Knighton: 28:03

so far? I'm really surprised, pretty impressive. I am surprised about how well it reacts to like my cadence of asking questions and not, you know, because we've all had that experience of talking to Siri or Alexa right where we have to, like, repeat five times and say exactly the right phrase to get a response right. Like, so what felt feels really different here is like the pivoting is really surprising, and then the information that is being given is exactly what would be given if you were talking to a live person. And in fact, there's more ability, I think, for this to be able to look at like resources quickly, you know, in a specific area, probably more so than a person would have the capability to do.

Unknown: 28:56

I found listening to you talk to it, that you slowed down, yes, his speaking cadence, I think, yeah, yeah, which was probably okay, right? That yes, that's a what do they call that mirroring? I think I'm

DeAnn Knighton: 29:14

a counselor, so I have to mirror, yeah,

Unknown: 29:18

and in a way, you did mirror, but that's also part of, I suppose, the experience itself, right? You could have talked to someone who talked faster as well, but maybe that's part of what you would seek out in the voice that you would pick is somebody that like if you were anxious, then you would look for someone who would calm you and slow you down and get you to be more deliberate. I didn't. I thought all of it. I never once felt like it misunderstood you,

DeAnn Knighton: 29:52

right? That's what I was trying yes exactly the answers were on point to the questions and some of. Them were double questions, you know, kind of complex questions. And it even had room for me to have filler, you know, oh, I don't want to do that right now. And, like, move to my other question. Yeah, I that that part is surprising. And yeah, you're right. There is something with the cadence that felt with him, like, maybe with that voice, um, definitely, sometimes some reminder, like, because it was so slow and deliberate, but I think he's programmed that way, right? So there might be other voices that would feel even a little bit more, more

Unknown: 30:35

a little bit, yeah, where you would but I it did seem I could almost see in your eyes and in your face, as I was watching you talk to it a point where you stopped thinking about the fact that it was technology and thinking about what it was saying. Yeah, you were. You moved from evaluating it to like, Is this even worth my time? To to thinking about the information instead, and I suppose, given your training you, you were able to be much more immediately critical, like to me, I don't know what a normal response would be to any of those questions if you were talking to somebody who was appropriately trained to handle a situation like this. I

DeAnn Knighton: 31:24

mean, that's all the stuff. I would say, yeah, and, and I would also say that I was surprised by how much empathy it used, because even when I would sort of lament, it had kind of that proper response. I Yes, let's do that. Or I understand that, or that like to make you feel sort of that affirming, like we're moving in the right direction. So maybe that's more affirmation than empathy. Now that I say that, I'm trying to think, did it actually empathize?

Unknown: 32:00

What do you think? I think when, when you express that you are overwhelmed. I thought its response was particularly empathetic. Well, then let's narrow things down and just focus on one thing,

DeAnn Knighton: 32:13

yes, that Yeah. I knew there were some, a couple of examples where I felt the empathy and I definitely felt the affirmation, which are all like core counseling skills, right that we like learn to practice.

Unknown: 32:25

Would you now take yourself back to what did we 2333 days ago? If you had known that something like this existed, would you have tried to talk to it?

DeAnn Knighton: 32:37

I probably wouldn't have, just because, just because of me, like, I think I would have started somewhere else, probably because it's the same thing, of like, when I really need help, I need that, I don't know, I would have sought out a human,

Unknown: 32:56

a human, it makes sense now. Now let me flip it around. Seeking out a human always has risks, right? Because, depending on who that human is and how much you trust them is, are you safe to even talk about these topics that one of the things I find fascinating is that this is inherently safe,

DeAnn Knighton: 33:16

right? What if it had said to me? Oh my gosh, you need to quit right away. This is horrible. But, you know, just like started giving me all of this, like, really scary, judgmental, like, Doomsday type of advice.

Unknown: 33:29

Yeah, it could have done that, but it doesn't. I think that's interesting that, but I think there's an element of stigma, free safety that is going to make this interesting, as it just continues to improve, I think it will be approachable in ways that people aren't and in environments where you wouldn't even normally think you know it. I there are probably people that are even afraid to Google. Am I a heavy drinker on their work computer? Right? Because their employer might learn something that they don't want their employer to know. So I think we're all surrounded by this concern that not only will this person be listening to me and offering me information, but that they might also be judging me because they are. They have another role in my life, right?

DeAnn Knighton: 34:24

Yeah, the objectivity can actually be very appealing, you know, in the sense of like, yeah, the judgment, free feeling, and the information based on the best available information. But I also think I wonder too, as we're talking about this is like a little bit more of, like a consultation conversation. And maybe we can do we can explore this in future episodes, where we get more into something, where it's actually finding the next questions to ask me, because that is very much, you know, when you're talking about, like counseling, that is very much about what is. The next question to start drawing that person towards an outcome.

Unknown: 35:05

Do you want to try to do that now? Do you want to try to pick that up and see or are we out? We're out of time, aren't we?

DeAnn Knighton: 35:11

Yeah, let's actually, I'll cut it off on this, but I think we could come back and do another version. Curious, what that made you think if it was different than what you expected, if it was exactly what you expected, if this was something you already knew everything about and weren't surprised to hear how effective it was at helping me through this issue in a fairly, you know, comfortable way, I would love to hear, what are your fears about this, all of the different things that might be running through your brain right now. And I just want to say, as we move forward with this podcast, we're going to be exploring a lot of different technology and resources, and everything is about the exploration process, not the endorsement process. It's about helping you get as much information about what's out there as possible. However, I think this is part of the future that we're in, and so hopefully you found this useful to consider how it could be applied in the world of recovery and substance use disorder. So we will be back in a couple of weeks with our next episode. Craig, anything else you'd like to share with the audience before I

Unknown: 36:21

just want to thank you for your open mind and for kicking out with me a little bit. I

DeAnn Knighton: 36:26

love it. I thought that was awesome. Alright, let us know what you think. We will go ahead and wrap this up. There'll be links in the show notes on how to find us. Love to hear from you with any feedback, you can send me messages directly to DeAnn at show up and stay.org if you have an innovation or something you're interested in hearing about on the show that it relates to the world of behavioral health and substance use disorder, please send that my way as well. We'd love to hear from you. You can find more information about our network of podcasts and other services at show up and stay.org and thank you so much for being here. We'll see you soon.

Unknown: 37:04

Be well. Be well. You.