Recovery Discovery | Can Personalized Recovery Become MORE Human With Data & AI? (w/ Dr. Quyen Ngo)

In this episode of Recovery Discovery, hosts DeAnn and Craig talk with Dr. Quyen Ngo, clinical psychologist and Director of the Butler Center for Research at the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation.

Together, they explore the science behind addiction treatment, why recovery support must extend far beyond discharge, and how technology—from wearables to AI—might shape the future of long-term recovery.

Dr. Ngo breaks down:

• Why addiction is a chronic brain disease, not a moral failing
• The “danger zones” at 3, 6, and 12 months post-treatment
• How Hazelden Betty Ford redesigned long-term support through the Lifelong Recovery Program
• Challenges of collecting real-world outcomes data across systems
• Ethical considerations of third-party platforms and patient privacy
• The promise and risks of AI in behavioral health
• Why standardizing treatment increases—not decreases—personalized care

This episode offers a rare inside look at modern addiction science, emerging technology, and the human work of supporting lasting change. It’s a conversation that bridges research, lived experience, and innovation — from the Butler Center for Research to the therapist’s office and beyond.

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info@showupandstay.org

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Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
https://www.hare.works

Transcript

DeAnn Knighton (00:00):
On today’s episode, Craig and I catch up with one of our mutually agreed-upon favorite people. Addiction research is really broad and encompasses many disciplines. Actually, this is Quyen Ngo, PhD.

Craig Knighton (00:05):
On one hand, you have researchers working at the basic science level—molecular and genetic research to understand the biology of addiction.

DeAnn Knighton (00:10):
Quyen leads research at the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation.

Quyen Ngo (00:13):
There’s also a significant line of research in technology-enhanced treatment—wearables, data tools, and devices that help us understand or treat addiction.
The third bucket I think about is recovery and long-term recovery, which is critical because addiction is a complicated disease. We need a multi-pronged approach to researching treatment and lifelong recovery.

DeAnn Knighton (00:43):
What you're hearing now is from the first interview we recorded with Quyen a couple of years ago for the Show Up and Stay podcast. So much of that conversation inspired what happened next for Craig and me.

Quyen Ngo (01:05):
We really do need a multi-lateral approach to researching treatment and recovery.

DeAnn Knighton (01:14):
We talk about that today on this follow-up episode with Quyen.

Hello and welcome back. Many listeners know I recently graduated from the Hazelden Betty Ford Graduate School, but you’re probably more familiar with Hazelden Betty Ford for its treatment services, mental health care, research, and community programs.

What most listeners don’t know is that Craig also spent the first six months of this year interning with their research organization. And this is where the story connects: I decided to go to Hazelden after our first episode with Quyen. That conversation was a catalyst.

So when Craig wanted to get in on the action, he interned with the Butler Center for Research and had the privilege of working with Quyen. We’re thrilled to have our first repeat guest on the podcast. How are you, Quyen?

Quyen Ngo (03:06):
I’m honored to be the first repeat guest—and to hear this conversation played a role in your grad school journey. That program is intensive, so congratulations on finishing.

DeAnn Knighton (03:24):
While Craig had an amazing experience working with you, I don’t know much about the projects you’re actively working on. Can you share what motivates your interest in addiction research?

Quyen Ngo (04:00):
I’m a clinical psychologist by training and earned a dual PhD in Clinical Psychology and Women’s Studies from the University of Michigan.
My dissertation research focused on violence exposure. Substance use kept appearing in interview after interview, and I realized I couldn’t study violence and aggression without also studying addiction.
The more research I did, the more fascinated I became. I’ve been doing this work for years now.

DeAnn Knighton (05:19):
What’s on your current research docket?

Quyen Ngo (05:36):
We do a wide variety of research and often partner with academic institutions and biotech companies. We partner with the Mayo Clinic on “bench science”—they grow neural networks from patient blood samples to study how the brain processes addiction medications.

We’ve partnered with Spark Biomedical on a behind-the-ear stimulation device that reduces withdrawal symptoms and cravings. We also work with Harvard researchers studying adolescents, recovery capital, and social networks—not social media—actual relationships.

DeAnn Knighton (07:09):
I tell clients considering treatment that medically assisted recovery is very different from the old days of white-knuckling alone in a dark room. There are so many tools now. But lifelong recovery is a different challenge. What approaches are used to measure long-term recovery?

Quyen Ngo (08:23):
For decades, treatment systems treated addiction like a one-time acute event—you go in, you get “fixed,” then you’re done. That was tied to the outdated belief that addiction was a moral failure and you “deserved” to suffer through treatment.

We’ve moved toward understanding addiction as a chronic brain disease with biological and behavioral components. Our treatment and long-term support reflects that reality.

Craig Knighton (09:39):
A lot of listeners may not know what the Lifelong Recovery Project is. Can you explain it?

Quyen Ngo (11:11):
Hazelden Betty Ford has been collecting outcomes data for decades. When we analyzed it more deeply, we discovered increased risk of return-to-use around 3 months and 6 months after discharge—and again at 12 months.
This sparked serious discussion: How do we help patients through those periods?

We had existing programs—an alumni network, coaching services, the Daily Pledge online community, and MORE (My Ongoing Recovery Experience) online curriculum. But they were run by different teams and didn’t connect. Everyone was passionate, but the programs moved in different directions.

Lifelong Recovery brings all those programs together into one coordinated framework so patients receive a cohesive, standardized, supported long-term recovery pathway.

Craig Knighton (14:36):
My engineer brain saw how disconnected the digital systems were—data collection, care teams, transitions between modalities. You and I believed that if the digital side worked, we could dramatically improve recovery outcomes. But I also learned how complex this is.

Quyen Ngo (18:39):
The biggest challenge is change management. Lifelong Recovery meant uniting multiple teams and harmonizing the technology backend.
Healthcare moves slowly with tech—and for good reason. Protecting patient data is critical. But to advance treatment, we also have to move forward technologically.
It’s a constant tension: protect patients, but also innovate.

Since the pandemic, healthcare was forced to adopt new technology, often without the infrastructure to support it. Leaders must now understand healthcare regulations and technology.

Craig Knighton (21:17):
And because Hazelden, like many healthcare systems, buys technology rather than building it, third-party vendors add complexity around data sharing and HIPAA compliance.

Quyen Ngo (21:57):
Yes. We have to ensure continuity of patient data across systems and ensure third-party vendors protect information. Many third-party platforms aren’t held to HIPAA or 42 CFR Part 2, so we must verify security and ownership of patient data before using them.

DeAnn Knighton (23:48):
I recently heard a podcast discussing the 988 Suicide Hotline—it works 98% of the time, but that 2% can be life-or-death. When we talk about research in behavioral health, measurement becomes complicated. Recovery feels similar. So many random factors determine success.

Quyen Ngo (26:27):
Exactly. Humans are complicated. There are internal and external factors that interact constantly. In behavioral research, we can’t rely on just one study—we need to look at the full body of evidence.
Often, people don’t know what question they’re asking, or they ask the wrong question for the outcome they want. That makes measurement even harder.

Craig Knighton (28:29):
The field is full of passionate people, often with lived experience. That makes care personalized, but personalized care makes structured research difficult.
You can’t treat every patient exactly the same, but without consistency, you can’t analyze outcomes.

Quyen Ngo (30:32):
People worry standardization means cookie-cutter treatment. It doesn’t. You must first standardize to individualize.
If a treatment has five components, everyone may receive a different combination—but the components must be delivered with consistent quality for us to measure what works.

Craig Knighton (32:55):
One of the most innovative future tools might be AI—data collection, recommendations, decision support. But how do we introduce something that disruptive?

Quyen Ngo (33:22):
AI has potential, but providers know where AI falls short and what would make it clinically useful. There’s an essence to therapy—presence, instinct, experience—that AI doesn’t yet replicate.
There are also concerns about consent, data storage, commercial datasets, and bias.

Craig Knighton (35:34):
Right—if most training data represents one population, the minority population won’t receive the best recommendations.

Quyen Ngo (36:44):
Exactly. And someone must decide which outcomes AI optimizes. Whoever makes that decision holds enormous power.

Craig Knighton (37:10):
The best future solution might be a combination of humans and technology—letting each do what it’s best at.

Quyen Ngo (38:17):
Clinicians worry AI will replace them. It won’t. AI is here, so how do we leverage it to support care? Humans get tired. AI can help clinicians stay consistent and supported, not replaced.

Craig Knighton (39:10):
We could talk forever, but we’re out of time. Quyen, thank you for everything—including being part of my internship experience.

Quyen Ngo (39:50):
Thank you both. I appreciate this conversation and always enjoy talking with you.

Craig Knighton (40:02):
Let’s do it again soon.