Alex Milway and Marc Jackson

Hotel Flamingo author & artist Alex Milway and cartoonist and Macc-Pow festival producer Marc Jackson bring in panels from a pair of obscure rarities, one with dragons and one with toast.

See the images from the episode here (they're also in the podcast artwork).

Video version of the episode can be seen here.

Every episode, the guests reveal a panel from a comic, we try and guess where it's from, then we chat about it. Half an hour later hopefully we've learned something, or just shown off and had fun along the way.

If you've enjoyed this, why not buy us a virtual coffee at Kev F's Ko-Fi page.

Your host, and series creator, is Kev F Sutherland, writer and artist for Beano, Marvel, Oink, The Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre, and most recently author and artist of graphic novels based on Shakespeare. kevfcomicartist.com

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Transcript

Kev F Sutherland: 0:02

Hello and welcome to Comic Cuts, the panel show. I'm Kev F. Sutherland, the bloke who writes and draws comics for Beano and Marvel, and now adapts Shakespeare into graphic novels for kids, and also has a hand in the Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre. My guests have brought with them a panel from a comic or something close, and we're going to see if we can identify it and talk about it. Maybe we and you will learn something about comics that we didn't already know, or maybe we'll just show off for a bit and have an enjoyable chat. Let's see. Joining me from the world of, well, publishing, I guess, I have Alex Milway and Mark Jackson. Hello. Hello. Yes, Mark, you began by doing silent approvals. On so many levels, that wasn't going to work. Comic cards. We're looking at a panel, and we comprise a panel, there's a few of us. So the panel sees a panel, and we talk about the comics from the panel we discussed, and we call it Comic Cuts. I've asked everyone on the panel to bring a panel to the panel. You can see these images on the show page or wherever you get your podcasts from. First of all, let us describe ourselves. Alex, tell us a little bit about yourself. How well do you coordinate your glasses and furniture? If there is a version of this on YouTube, you'll see the most brilliant coordination. I've never seen the like.

Alex Milway: 1:18

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I um it was purely by accident. Well, although obviously it's not quite by accident, because um I picked green, but I um it's funny, I I like green. And this was uh I I picked these glasses in Spectator because my my sort of daughter said those would be great. So I tried them on before I was even looking for glasses, then a couple of a month or two went back and actually had an eye test. I needed glasses. And so it was the only pair I could have, really.

Kev F Sutherland: 1:43

Oh, so you're not a lifelong glasses wearer.

Alex Milway: 1:45

No, I ran new.

Kev F Sutherland: 1:46

I mean about a year now, but um I think if I had green frames, I'd be aware of the green. I'm very aware of the green.

Alex Milway: 1:54

I think there is just it's uh it's interesting because I never really thought about it before. Because people come up to me and go, Oh, have you got other colours to go with other clothes? I was like, no, everything has to go with green in my world. And I think that's it's fascinating, isn't it? You uh you just make these choices and don't really think about them until afterwards. I I and I rich I literally painted this about a month ago in here, and um we we commented it would be it would be um it would be quite good for a green screen without the books in it, but then obviously I would disappear because of my glasses.

Marc Jackson: 2:21

Mark, lifelong glasses wearer? Uh yes. Um I've been wearing glasses since I was at school, so obviously, you know, that goes down well when you have to wear glasses at school. Um you don't want to wear glasses because suddenly you think everyone's going to uh mock you. Um and obviously I I grew up in the uh in the 80s, uh late 70s, 80s is when when people were allowed to mock you. Uh so uh and so that happened. And then I at some point just slid into having contact lenses, which was like a revelation. It was like this is like the greatest thing, because you you were like, I can see, um, because you you know you don't got glasses on your face anymore, but you can see like whoa, my eyesight has been cured. Um but when I am in front of my computer, which I am all the time, um I couldn't wear them. Uh and so I would be used to just not having them out in, uh, and then I just ended up just wearing glasses again. And then now I'm just always a full-time glasses wearer.

Kev F Sutherland: 3:22

The other thing that the listener won't know um is that you're wearing for some reason luau. Yeah, are you in Hawaii?

Marc Jackson: 3:28

I'm not in Hawaii, I'm in Macclesfield in Cheshire, but I this has become a little bit of my um uh outfit of choice, just add a little bit of colour to anything that's going on. Uh so I do a lot of drawing workshops, as you do, Kev, um uh and uh here at the studio where I am called Root for Comics in Macclesfield. Uh and it's just become a little thing that I it started in the summer, so I was doing festivals in the summer, so you know you'd wear it, and then you just think, well, why not just wear it in the winter? So I've paired it with my scarf uh today to give it a bit of winter summer vibe.

Kev F Sutherland: 4:01

You both in fact do a lot of uh work uh daring to engage with children. A lot of people would run a mile before uh standing in front of a group of kids. But Alex, do you sing when you go into the class?

Alex Milway: 4:13

I do sing, and I I I mean a strum guitar and sing and yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I I I very much feel like these are good things to do when you go into a school to if you're a if you're someone who writes books, you know, I write children's books. So there is this feeling that you are going in there and you're you're talking about words and stuff like that. That seems like an awful lot of work to some kids. So I've I quite quickly sort of realized that actually, oh, do more drawings. Oh, yeah, I'd do more drawings in the workshops. And then I sort of started to turn it maybe into a little bit more of a show, which seemed like a slightly daft thing to do, but I was doing a tour with the Hotel Flamingo books right at the beginning of those two, that series. And um actually it I was doing a big, you know, sort of at some point it was 800 kids in a in a hall. So it had to be a little bit more extravagant and interesting than just me standing on stage reading from a book. And so yeah, I took my guitar. I saw uh Sarah McIntosh, she used to sing songs. I thought, Joe, I can do that as well. Let's let's do what Sarah does and um, or attempt to do what Sarah does, and uh yeah, I wrote some silly songs. And you know, turn I've got I do a disco flamingo moment, get all the kids up and do a disco dance and stuff. But yeah, it's I think it's a really good way of just breaking, like just is not breaking it up a bit if you're doing it of fence.

Kev F Sutherland: 5:22

So you're Mark, you um is it mostly kids that you do your classes with?

Marc Jackson: 5:27

Yeah, yeah, I um I do for uh with with adults as well, but yeah, primarily children. But I've done uh some team building um uh for business. In fact, I had the artist council came to the studio and did had a did a an away day uh and drew with me for the day, uh, which was which was rather exciting last year. Um and yeah, so um, and then you know, some parents will maybe join in or you know, book a ticket as well, uh you know, because they want to draw along with their with the children and not let the children have all the fun. But what you were saying, Alex, uh I I I learned over the years, I've been sort of doing workshops now since I don't know, 2013 or something like that, where I just got invited into a school because somebody latched onto the fact that I was doing something and they were like, oh, let's get this guy and invited him in, and didn't go in with any plan. Um, but it became it became over the years, especially when you get a lot bigger crowd, it becomes a performance, doesn't it? Absolutely. I think that's the way to truly, and I don't know, you I've seen you at work many times, Kev. It's not just about, oh, I'm now gonna show you how to do something, you've just got to follow on. It's all about sweeping them up and getting them engaged, uh, because then that's when they can they can learn something by uh by your engagement. If you're just I'm gonna draw this character and you're gonna draw it too, it's very boring. And chances are you probably won't get invited back many times.

Alex Milway: 6:44

You you also learn quite quickly on as well, don't you, that um having their energy, having them contribute makes the hours go faster and it's a lot more enjoyable to everybody.

Marc Jackson: 6:54

Yeah, if you can make the parents laugh, then you know, everybody's it's it's you're selling yourself every single time, and it's you've got to treat it as that's your first time ever doing it. You know, there's always a group of people who've never drawn with you before or think, and you've got to you can't just phone it in.

Kev F Sutherland: 7:11

For a long time, I was reticent to have the parents in the back of the room. I felt like I needed the complete control and the complete attention. I was quite Svengali-ish when it came to the kids. And I found that parents would step in and they give kids um permission to fail almost. You know, the kids would defer to the parents. But in the last couple of years, I have been one over to having the parents at the back of the room since I discovered I could flog books to them.

Marc Jackson: 7:40

Yeah, yeah, that's the trick. But it's true what you say about you know, the a child will naturally, if they're they're um they're not entirely sure their confidence is a little bit lower, um, and they might sort of glance back then to the parents that behind them then the or or the parents automatically default is to come in and save the day. Uh, but I found a nice way of getting over that by by saying that out loud, by saying, you know, don't worry what somebody else is drawing next to you, because they're gonna draw it very different than you are. Don't worry about what the person behind you thinks you should be drawing. Uh listen to this guy, because I'm gonna help you take away all that that worry. Um, and and so having the parents as your stooge is kind of nice, I think.

Kev F Sutherland: 8:22

Yeah, possibly my least favorite thing, and this happens quite a lot when you've got the parents in there, is the helicopter parent who sits down beside the child, and then you find after a while, when you look back, the child has delegated the work to the parent who's been just doing it all. That's uh that's to be dissuaded.

Marc Jackson: 8:39

Yeah.

Kev F Sutherland: 8:41

And we represent our areas as well, Alex. I was noticing noticing uh you were recently bigging up Hastings, doing some sort of things, things, classes, work shows in Hastings itself.

Alex Milway: 8:51

Well, we've just yeah, I mean, there's there was stuff for um there's a book festival they have down here. And it's just always nice to get along locally, isn't it? And actually sort of say hello, here I am, and I'd really like to help out. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? There's lots of illustrators and authors down this way, so there's a little community. So it's actually it's a really great place to be, you know.

Kev F Sutherland: 9:08

Um and very much a thing that you two do for Macclesfield, Mark.

Marc Jackson: 9:13

Uh yeah, with um uh MacPowell, our comic art festival, which I've just started. Um I mean I'm always thinking about it, uh, but now it's in the uh now we're in 2026. It's the the the it's this year again, uh even though in 2025 it was this year, but it had been it happened.

Kev F Sutherland: 9:30

What a grip you have on temporal matters.

Marc Jackson: 9:33

We're here in 2026, it's the it it's going to happen. Well, that's the hope. Uh, but yeah, so that's uh end of June. Uh and so I'm just sort of getting things underway, um, sending out uh uh uh uh questions to people and and sort of writing a list of stuff that's gonna happen and yeah, exhibitions and stuff like that. So yeah, it's uh it's become a big thing.

Kev F Sutherland: 9:56

The thing that has very impressed me with MacPow is the fact that Mackelsfield joins in, the whole the whole town gets behind it. Um for readers at home, listeners at home who are not familiar with MacPow, you should be. All through the year, there are a lot of things that call themselves comic conventions, and I go to lots of them. I went to about 30 last year, and there's three that I count as proper comic conventions because they're all about comics, they're not all about somebody from a movie or a TV show or somebody sitting behind a table saying, I was an ewok, prove me wrong. Um it's things which are just about comics. So there's MacPow in Maclesfield, there's Thought Bubble, which is in Harrogate, which is a big thing in a vast shed, and then there is the um uh Lakes Festival in the lakes, which um you go to as well. But yeah, uh you've managed to keep MacPow going for what now? Is this 11 years?

Marc Jackson: 10:50

11 years, yeah. And and and and I uh the the the lakes have become a great um uh friend uh uh of uh of both me and and on our event. Uh I've known them for for 11 years. In fact, one of the people who was um instrumental in the start of the lakes, uh the late Aileen McAvoy, uh, was who's a great friend of mine, she died three years ago and she lived in Macclesville and she was part of the lakes. And so I kind of found out about the inner workings of the lakes when I uh when somebody introduced me to Aileen and said, Oh, she lives in your town. I was like, Oh, that's quite handy. Uh and and so and a great sort of association came from that. Uh and and and so I think I've always looked at the lakes as kind of our model uh of uh and the lakes is very similar to a festival that we had here in Macclesville called the Barnby Festival, um, which um was was a was an old festival that kind of came back just before we we moved back to Macclesfield in 2012, uh and it was a big 10-day arts festival basically, uh uh where the town would be filled with all these things because you know, down little side streets, art things were happening, but art of all kinds, you know, music and uh uh all different kinds of art. And and the year that I was approached to be involved, they asked me, Oh, you know, you'd like to do something. I was trying to figure out what it was, and then through my conversation with Aileen about the lakes and just comics in general, I was like, Oh, I wonder if we could do like a little comics event as part of Barnaby. And and and Aileen said, I I think you could. Uh, and then that was how Mac Pound came about.

Kev F Sutherland: 12:19

And we're talking uh uh from the point of view of people who are inside the world of comics. Alex, uh, someone who's I I would think of as more outside the world of comics, you get to book festivals more.

Alex Milway: 12:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh it's funny, in my series I did over 10 years ago, actually I did do comic for, and um, in between each chapter, it was like 2011 each chapter, there was a whole chapter of comics and each thing, which is the first time I'd done it as a uh kind of an actual job. Um, so that was really interesting. I took comics, and that's when I got to know people like Gary Northfield and friends like that, um, which was great. So I got to know lots of comics people. It's such a noble art, people who make comics. I think there's a and especially if you're writing words alongside comics, you realize, oh, I can write a lot more words in the same length of time as I can write, so I can draw comic panels. So it comes to financial kind of issue there.

Kev F Sutherland: 13:06

That is a thing that uh many of us who've worked in both areas discover. Comics just take that bit longer, they fill up more space, and sometimes we wonder why we're doing it. Yes. But we do. It is our first love, and you've just reminded me that's the reason we're here today. So I think we should have a look at the artwork that my two guests have brought in with them. I have asked Alex and Mark, each to bring in a comic panel. We're gonna have a look at them and and see if we can guess what we're looking at. Who should I look at first? I'm gonna, just because it was the first one that was sent to me, we're going to look at Alex's picture. Now, it's shared on the screen, and uh, listeners at home, you should find this on the show notes, you should find it on the holding picture for wherever you get your podcast. But if, for example, you're driving, so don't go uh looking with any great difficulty. Uh, it's okay. You don't have to see it, because we're about to describe it. Or rather, Mark, you are. Can you describe what Alex has brought in and that you're now looking at?

Marc Jackson: 14:06

All right, okay. Well, we we've got like a a landscape panel, uh, and and to the left of the panel uh was there's a figure that's kind of wearing a helmet with horns. Um and uh you can't see his face. It's kind of it looks like there's a mouthpiece on it with kind of teeth, but he's wearing he's also holding in his hand uh uh a witch's hat of some sort, I think. He's a muscle-bound kind of fella with a with a furry collar around his neck, and then he's he's having an interaction with uh with a a red dragon uh that's that's kind of lying on the ground. I know there's been uh been an they've had some kind of battle. Maybe the dragon was wearing the hat previously and and the the battle uh ensued and the guy has taken it off him. I mean I I I should have read it really. A hat. I know it is a hat, Ember, uh, is the character saying, Spies, spies in our meds. Capture them, dragon. I want them alive. All right, okay. So he's telling the dragon the dragon's maybe having a sleep. Um and uh yeah, the dragon uh is agreeing to uh to to uh to seeking out the spies. Um that's what I see.

Kev F Sutherland: 15:12

From the from the panologist's point of view, uh people who study line art and such, I can describe it as being definitely black and white line art that has then been coloured in with what looks to me like watercolour. It looks like either it predates the days of computer colouring, or it's been done as a deliberate choice. Or somebody could very cleverly be using computer colouring and make it look like slightly shonky watercolour. I mean, there's a few places, like around the edges of the voice bubbles being spoken by the guy in the hornet helmet, and they really look hand-brushed, almost like somebody may have used a magic marker to do them. And and they've left white bits. Oh, it's the closer you look, the more you realize that's how we used to do it in the old days. I used to do some dreadful colour separations. He's holding a green hat, in the band of which are inserted bones, or are they or are they q-tips? We'll find out. The guy is wearing what looks a bit like a wrestler costume, he's got a furry collar like they used to have with a cape. Oh, he's got a cape. Oh no, that's the hat. And then the red dragon is well, he's a red dragon with blue eyes. What more do I need to say? The dragon's voice bubble has got a black line inside it which looks like an error. This is a comic strip, but the more I look at it closely, the more I spot errors. Now, Alex, before you fill us in on what we're looking at, Mark, I'd like you to have a guess at what you think this could possibly be from.

Marc Jackson: 16:47

You know, as soon as I saw it, I it it didn't jump out at me at all. Um I I I honestly and I and I feel like I I you know I I know you Kevin and I've only just met you, Alex, but I feel like honesty is the best policy. I I honestly don't know. I I I want to say it's something to do with with the with the black knight, but uh that that's wrong because um he looks similar to that because he's wearing black. That's my only reason for saying I have I have honestly no clue um what comic, what era, like you say, Kev, the way it's been coloured, I would have uh I would have said um markers. It looks hand coloured, but with possibly with markers or or brushes or something. I I I I think markers, but um that's probably only more recently that would identify it as markers, not not really thinking about how it might have been coloured when I was younger. Um so I I honestly don't know. Um Marvel DC well anybody's guess.

Kev F Sutherland: 17:47

My guess would be that it's not Marvel and it's not DC, because it was very rare for them to use this sort of colouring. I'd say I'd say it's in the late 80s or the early 90s, because from the early to mid-90s onwards, you get Photoshop colouring pretty well universally in in comics. But about the 80s is when colour printing seemed to have got a bit more cheap and widespread. Um the fact that it's this line drawing style coloured with watercolours uh would be very European, but nothing else about it screams European. So I'm thinking it's probably a TV tie-in like He-Man and Masters of the Universe or some such thing. But I'm really struggling. Alex, put us out of our misery.

Alex Milway: 18:35

So this is um a graphic novel adaptation of Dragonlance. It's a panel from that which uh was part of uh Dungeons and Dragons, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, by T a T SR graphic novel um um from 1988. Ah it's it's a it's kind of it's an amazing thing. I mean, it's kind of bizarre. It's the writing is hilarious at times. The artwork is kind of amazing by a guy called Thomas Yates.

Kev F Sutherland: 19:02

And it's uh Oh yeah, I know Tommy Yates, he drew a saga of the swamp thing just before Alan Moore took over back in 1983.

Alex Milway: 19:09

Yeah, I was googling him earlier. He's done Prince Valiant, does lots of stuff. So it's very heavy black line, black uh shading, and then colour pop putting. So it's got a little air of at times of Hellboy sort of a design, the way he draws. Um and it's it's um it's an amazing thing because I it's a the the the reason I came about these was I was walking down the street about a year ago and the house was having a clear out and just put a load of things on the wall. And but you know, as I walked past, and my eyes suddenly thought, comics, and so I picked them up. And um they're they're just amazing. The artwork, it's quite uh incredible, you know, it's incredibly skilled. The stories are so Dungeons and Dragons, but they've they've got these uh um it's quite funny that all of the women are dressed like they're in 80s, they're they're going out on an 80s night out. The men, the men look like they're sort of some 60s hippie kind of uh it's so funny the difference between men and women in these comics. Um all the sort of the It just ticks all the Dungeons and Dragons boxes. And like, yeah, the guy, the main baddie, he looks like he's a sort of a Mexican wrestler. And uh it just makes me laugh.

Kev F Sutherland: 20:09

I thought I'd yeah, I thought I'd share it because it's um Were both or either of you uh DD players?

Alex Milway: 20:16

No, no, I I've never done it myself.

Marc Jackson: 20:18

I had um in fact, I have it here in the studio, it's right next to me. Um uh I had um uh it was advertised in one of my Marvel UK comics, the Marvel Superheroes Dungeons and Dragons. I can show it to you for the sake of you guys. So I used to see that, I would say it all the time, and then until I basically said to him, you know, can I have this? And and it was quite expensive at the time, it might have been £10. Um and I got it, and so yeah, you go it's got the TSR, so it's official Dungeons Dungeons and Dragons uh um merch, so to speak. Uh and um it's got you know all the books inside it and some really nice artwork, but it's so damn complicated, and I had no idea how to play it, and so I've never played it ever. Um, and um yeah, it's got all these the little the characters, so you know, John and uh John Byrne drawings here.

Alex Milway: 21:16

Yeah, you also need willing participants, don't you? You need a bunch of friends.

Marc Jackson: 21:19

That's the thing. I was very much um when I was in high school, I was very much uh a lone wolf, uh possibly because of my glasses, um and um so yeah, I didn't I didn't have a big sort of friendship circle and and Dungeons and Dragons I would have thought would have been frowned on, but now in this day and age of uh Stranger Things, Dungeons and Dragons, the the as they I don't know who said it, but I remember um I'm digressing slightly, but uh I'm I'm a big hip hop fan. Uh and there was a quote in uh um the album notes by a group called Third Bass, American group from New York, and there was a little quote that said, And the and the the meek shall inherit the earth. And I don't know, and this is like from 1990 when I read read that, and I was like, I don't know what that means. Um, but I I do know what that means because uh those people who are in the background are the ones that eventually take over, and uh and so if you're a Dungeons and Dragons player now, you're cool. You're within. Stranger Things has made you cool.

Kev F Sutherland: 22:19

Uh well, yeah, Stranger Things is a great advert for having friends, um, but but they very quickly moved away from the Dungeons and Dragons playing part of it. Uh what it makes you want to do is have a world where Dungeons and Dragons is real, and you can walk through portals and um yeah, uh the actual sitting around a table. I had a friend uh who tried to persuade me about Dungeon Dragons on the end of the phone. He was phoning me from Mars away, and uh, with every word that he would describe, I just got further and further away from the thought that this sounded like an interesting thing to do. And then the fact that the conversation lasted over an hour was the nail in the coffin of DD. So as a result, I've never played it.

Marc Jackson: 23:01

Yeah, no, I um my my eldest daughter, uh Nancy, she got invited um when she was in the last year of primary school uh by a group of friends, uh a few boys, and and they were uh we're going to go around to the house for a play because we're we're we're gonna play Dungeons and Dragons. I'm like, all right, okay, that sounds you you'll you might enjoy that. Uh and Nancy um and her friend Eliza uh really didn't enjoy it, uh, but Nancy just went for the snacks. Much to the annoyance of a young gentleman called Gabe, who was very, very serious about it, and Gabe had to keep telling them off. Uh so then eventually they stopped going.

Kev F Sutherland: 23:42

So he was very serious about it, not very serious about her.

Marc Jackson: 23:46

Yeah, he was Dungeons and Dragons was like, if you're coming here to play this, we are being serious. Yeah, it was not a way to meet girls, it was a way just to, I don't know, get more people involved in this thing that he uh he wanted to play.

Kev F Sutherland: 24:00

DD is like like comics, one of the things that taps into the geek, the geeky mindset, which for a long time was was an all-male preserve, and not so much now, I wouldn't say.

Marc Jackson: 24:11

No, I think girls are um yeah, uh are playing it the same way as the comics, isn't it? You know, comics is you know, and again, we you know mentioned Mac Powell. Uh a big part of what I'd like to do, MacPow is is really focused on the fact that there's a lot of female comics creators out there. Uh and uh and and and if you've if you've got an event and you've got maybe one or two, then you've not done your job properly. And it's true, yeah.

Kev F Sutherland: 24:39

Do you know what that uh actually uh touches on uh a sensitive point for this podcast because I vowed from the start of this podcast, this is season two of it. In season one, I vowed I wasn't going to do an all-male episode of the podcast. Oh no, and here we are. Uh it was it was by dint of who was able to reply and who was able to make it to the recording so far. I will redress the balance as we go along by having all female episodes. But yes, the great thing for me when I get along too, comic festivals now is that you get um probably more uh women creators than you get uh all guy creators.

Marc Jackson: 25:15

Oh, definitely, and they're bringing in you know comics then of all different kinds. You know, it it's no longer a male-dominated area and uh arena, and uh even comic shops are not what comic shops used to be.

Kev F Sutherland: 25:27

And particularly content-wise, I've found when I go into schools that the manga readers uh will be predominantly uh girls.

Marc Jackson: 25:36

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think yeah, manga's definitely it it's that it's bridged that gap, hasn't it, between readers of of things like the Bino and and and then now we've got the Phoenix, that little gap um where people jump from one to the other. And I think rather than whereas I I jumped from from those, I probably still read them, but jump, you know, we're not not a Phoenix, obviously, but uh at the time, uh but you know, jump from Bino to to Marvel UK comics and then jump from those then to American Marvel comics. Um manga didn't really uh it was around. I remember Akira uh being advertised in in in in Marvel Age of all things, um but uh I I don't know whether how much manga there was in your average comic shop in the UK in the 80s.

Alex Milway: 26:21

No, it was exotic. It felt like the the I mean I remember you know, I grew up in the 80s, but um I was desperate for anything Japanese. It sounds crazy, but it felt like the place that I I was really, you know, especially when things like um I just I remember I think Akira being on TV, the cartoon, and it was quite a big exciting moment because you you know, I was I was not 18 at that point or anything. I think it was an 18 film, wasn't it? It was quite a yeah, yeah. So all these things, all these influences from Japan were so important to me, you know.

Marc Jackson: 26:48

Yeah, I mean I grew you know, I in in the 80s, I was watching Battle of the Planets. That was anime, you know, with without even I I did uh you know, but back then when you're that age, you're not even thinking, looking for uh well, what is this? That what what kind of animation is this? I was just like, is this a cool cartoon? Yes, it is. Uh you know, so I was sort of watching things, you know, Japanese stuff, you know, and even Transformers, you know, that's that obviously came from Japan, and then Marvel were the ones who gave it all the stuff the story, um, uh, which is something I discovered in the past sort of I don't know, 10 years. That uh I know I I just assumed that it came fully formed as toys and story. Uh but that's that's if you're not familiar with it, that isn't the case. Uh the toys were Japanese toys, and then Marvel were the ones who gave them all the names and all the story, um, which uh yeah, so so you're there's always been Japanese stuff, but then suddenly it's it's separate, isn't it? There's a there's a whole extra culture of it. Uh and you go anywhere here, water stones, and it's just the shelves are just full.

Kev F Sutherland: 27:50

Dungeons and Dragons comic has uh inspired a lot of conversation about Japanese comics. Dungeons and Dragons, is is that a uh an area we can mine any further, or have we exhausted our knowledge of the area and the comic?

Alex Milway: 28:05

Uh the one thing I think is really interesting about Dungeons Dragons is the uh there's quite actually quite a number of children's authors that use it and play it actively and and test out their stories. I guess they run as games masters or you know, dungeon masters. And um I think that's really interesting that uh you can if you like writing stories and you're imaginative, I think. I mean, this is all something I always wanted to do, but never had people to do with. So I've always only just painted the figures, you know. I love I love painting the little models. But the actual trying out of your ideas on people to see if they work or not, and the how watertight your plot is is is quite a great way in, you know, as a craft.

Kev F Sutherland: 28:41

Did anybody ever see a TV movie starring a very young Tom Hanks, which was part of the Dungeons and Dragons scare? When the game first appeared, there were uh stories that it uh twisted the minds of children and made them in some way reckless, devil may care, suicidal. I don't know quite what the worry was, but I remember seeing this at the very early 1980s. It must have been. Yeah, that was it. And Tom Tom Hanks having played this game, he's then about to throw himself off a building, not knowing what he's doing, because he's been playing this dreadful game. Uh, the comic we were just looking at, remind us, Alex, we were just looking at.

Alex Milway: 29:22

Oh, it was the TSR graphic novel of the Dragon Lance saga. Oh, nice. And uh there it is.

Kev F Sutherland: 29:29

The Dragon Lance saga, drawn by Tom Yates. Let's see what Mark has brought in. Okie dokie. Alex, would you do us the honors and describe what you're looking at? Well, uh, we're looking at a square panel, a lovely big clong. Um that needs elaboration for anyone who can't see the pictures.

Alex Milway: 29:51

Yeah, so there is a there is a Spider-Man uh in a non-traditional Spider-Man sense, kind of Spider-Man sense, a kind of a cartoony cartoony Spider-Man who has been smacked around the head by a iron bar, like as an Cludo sense, and a big clong uh noise over his head. And he's there's got very little voice, a little speech box that says bye.

Kev F Sutherland: 30:16

Uh yes, from the panelologist's point of view, those who study line art and the like, it's been drawn with brush, a nice characteristic bold brush line, which accentuates the cartoonish nature of it. The proportions are cartoony, as Alex has tried. It's hard to describe because when we're talking about comic strip and when we're talking about cartoon, we sort of know what we mean, but in your mind you could paint a hundred different pictures. This Spider-Man's eyes are big and round, like italicized, elongated letter O's, which is not quite what they look like in the comic. The sound effect clong is written in a cartoony, slightly clunky way, like it's been done with a thick, uh, round-tipped marker. Again, not like you'd do it in Marvel Comics if it was lettered by Richard Starking's comic craft. Um, the colours are simple, uh uh a yellow wash, which then uh fades out to orange at the edges, which again is a very childish oriented colour scheme, the way you wouldn't do it in the normal Marvel comic. Uh, Spider-Man is in a pure red with the blue sleeves, and he's got a tiny bit of toning round the edge, but not much, because you keep it simplistic when it's supposed to be either for younger kids or supposed to be funny. I would say this is supposed to be funny and for younger kids, and I couldn't tell you what it's from, except that it must be from a Marvel comic, because you don't get to use Spider-Man if you're not. Alex, would you like to have a guess where it might have come from?

Alex Milway: 31:54

It's got to be a Spider-Man comic. Is it a Spidey verse? Something like that. It looks like one of the alternate kind of reality Spider-Man, possibly. That's about as good as I've got. It's a Spider. Is it a Spider-Man comic?

Kev F Sutherland: 32:04

And my guess is going to be, although I could be wrong, there's a fellow called Fred Hembeck who did a lot of humorous stuff with the Marvel characters. Might this have been something he did in a slightly larger form? More than that, I'm struggling. Mark, tell us.

Marc Jackson: 32:22

I do like the ide the fact that you mentioned Fred Hembeck. Uh he's one of my uh sort of handful of cartoons that I grew up with who are like my my heroes. Uh it's not Fred Hembeck. Um I'm I'm I'm very familiar with Fred's work. So I I if you show me this panel, I wouldn't, I would, I would, uh, I would like to think I would know it. I well, I would know it wasn't a Fred Hembeck. Um it's um it's actually I started throwing you a bit of a curveball, and and I thought, yeah, that's kind of a bit of fun of all this. It's actually uh from um the Renan Stimpy uh Marvel comic. Um where uh and it's the the first Renan Stimpy comic that I I bought because um my favorite character from Renan Stimpy was a character called Powdered Toastman. Uh who was a superhero character, if you're not familiar with the with the TV shows, a superhero character um who was uh a guy with a piece of toast on his head. This is the comic where it was basically so Powdered Toastman versus Spider-Man, and I just learned with Ren Stimpy down here at the bottom, and I was just like, Yeah, I'm having that, thank you very much. Um, and um yeah, so it I didn't buy this when it came out. Uh I bought this um, oh gosh, maybe 10, 15 years ago. Uh it was first published in 1993, which is kind of the time when I was watching Ren and Stimpy, when I was had that little bit of a time where I drifted away from comics. So I I around about 1993 was my drifting away from from buying comics kind of time. Um I was a big fan of the TV show. Uh it's drawn by a cartoonist called Mike, uh, I think I pronounced his name right, Mike Kazala, uh, who also uh did um um some Simpsons comics as well, um, and uh some other funny animal kind of stuff. Um What about an orange? And the name escapes me. Um so a bit of an indie guy as well. Uh he came from an animation background, uh, and then um but interestingly enough it's uh it's written, and and the uh I don't know how how long he wrote it for, but this is issue six, and I've got quite a few subsequent issues as well uh of just the stroke uh comic. This is like a special, even though it's still part of a numbering. Uh it's written by Dan Slott, uh, who is the uh well, he still is the Spider-Man writer, but went on to become a big deal in like the the Chris Claremont of his day, maybe. I don't know how you describe him, Kev.

Kev F Sutherland: 34:47

Well, he he comes from the era when I'd kind of uh moved on from Marvel Comics because I worked for Marvel Comics in the middle of the 1990s, uh, which was a dream fulfilled, but it also took the guilt off the gingerbread because I got rather disillusioned with the whole comics world. I've told before now the story of how I worked for Marvel up until they went bankrupt or filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1998, and they shrank down to a third of their size, so it was last in, first out. They got rid of about two-thirds of the people who worked for them, that included me. And uh, my last communication from Marvel was a letter saying, uh, we've overpaid you royalties for a Star Trek comic. The next job you do for us, you owe us $250.

Marc Jackson: 35:31

Yeah, there's this there was quite a bit of culture uh sort of like 10 years ago where um like a place like Cartoon Network suddenly discovered that cartoonists made incredible storyboarders. Um and so your your shows like Adventure Time and uh regular show uh were all what they call board driven. So they they they had the like a little bit like the Marvel method where they'd the the the creator would come with the the uh the the idea for the episode and then hand it over to the storyboarders who would write the episode visually with all the jokes and and and and so yeah, there's cartoonist I know, there's an American cartoonist who I'm friendly with called Sam Spina, uh who um he he sent me this recently, actually, which is worth definitely worth showing if possible. Um he did um there's a there's a cartoon on Amazon Prime called Batfam, uh which is basically about Batman and his little family. Um and last year it was um um uh Merry Little Batman, I think it was, it was that was the feature-length uh film that then spawned a series. Anyway, Sam uh is one of the storyboarders, and then he also directed the first episode. And so um it's quite fascinating. Uh he does uh diary comics from time to time, uh, and he talks about you know how working uh as uh on board-driven shows, um how how it kind of um is is like working in in comics. So uh yeah, I think the the the two worlds are you know very linked up.

Kev F Sutherland: 36:59

It's interesting when artists get creative freedom, because there's quite a lot of a history in the comics business of uh the creators sometimes not getting freedom. For example, many, many years of of things like The Dandy and the Bino, where artists would have to ghost the style of their predecessors, and the comic wasn't allowed to change the way it looked, and the writers weren't allowed to change the way they wrote them. Um but then you get something like The Phoenix, which leans very heavily into the style of uh creators like yourself and creators like Gary Northfield and Jamie Smart, where it's like we've discovered these people, they're great at doing this thing, so you know we'll capitalize on what they're actually great at, and that breaks new ground. I mean, Alex, in the Trad book field, you both write and draw. Was that a difficult thing to bring about?

Alex Milway: 37:46

Well, well, my first books come out in 2007, uh, the Mouse Tunster Stuart, and they basically were very, very word-heavy. I got managed to get some pictures in, um, uh just little descriptions of mice throughout chapters of the book. Um, but I think I back in those days it was very much an illustrator and then a writer.

Kev F Sutherland: 38:07

Well, yeah, I I've been aware of the um traditional book trade having a division between writers and authors, the authors being uh given an illustrator.

Alex Milway: 38:17

Oh, and very much kept apart. Yeah, there's a wall in between and you don't meet and you don't talk, which seems utterly bonkers to me, but that's the way they sort of like it. I mean, maybe some illustrators don't want to be bothered by people having views of their own work, but I kind of feel that's a shame. I like collaboration, feels like a nice thing to do.

Marc Jackson: 38:32

I've done some work for uh uh Indian comics magazine called Freaky, which is published out of San Francisco. The last thing I did for him was very detailed, very mad magazine in terms of lots of what they call chicken fat in the background and stuff like that.

Kev F Sutherland: 38:45

Which sorry, what what do they mean when they say there's lots of chicken fat in the background?

Marc Jackson: 38:50

So chicken fat is the term for all the extra stuff in the background that's there that rewards on the second viewing, the little things that you can pour or you've read it and then you pour over it in the background and see that little gag. Apparently it's called the chicken fat. Why it's called the chicken fat, I've got no idea.

Kev F Sutherland: 39:06

Which begs a quick question of both of you the actual materials you use to produce things. There will be people listening at home saying, I want to draw like Alex Milway. How does he do it? What sort of pencils should I buy? That is what a child sounds like, and anybody who's never met a child, they all sound like that. Uh so Alex, what what materials do you work in?

Alex Milway: 39:25

Well, up until the last uh is the last book, I think. I've I've mainly used uh freebie pencil and I've uh drawn it, scanned it in, and then coloured it through Photoshop. But now I am full iPad uh using Procreate.

Kev F Sutherland: 39:40

So you've made that transition in very recent times?

Alex Milway: 39:42

Yeah, yeah. It's cut out about uh probably a month and a half from my sort of schedule of how long it takes for me to write a book. I um well, so I you know the books I've been doing are about 12,000 words. So there's probably about two weeks of writing involved in that to get it to get it to a decent shape. And then drawings, uh, you know, you you do rough, you know, this is what 180 pages. Book, so there's probably about a hundred illustrations. So I do the rough over a couple of weeks, three weeks, maybe two weeks. I scan them in, send them off, and then it all comes back again. So and then you you know work through the final phases. So it normally takes me a couple of months to sort of do the artwork extra after, you know. So I guess yeah, three or three months, maybe four months of book going back and forth with those and stuff. But uh with the iPad, I've kind of uh reduced just I just the process of scanning it all. And um and also the fact I can just delete it very quickly because I draw very quickly and so I make a lot of mistakes, and actually it's really freeing for me to not just be throwing away sheets of paper all the time. Um it's quite joyful.

Marc Jackson: 40:41

And Mark, what do you use? Uh so so my all my finished comments I draw digitally. I have a Synteek, so like a big iPad, it's right here in front of me, it's just down here. Uh and so my the little pen that comes and uh it's pressure sensitive. I've got brushes that I created. Uh it's got a really worn down tip, which um which uh it's like a felt tip on the end, and it's really worn down, and I think to get the the line that I that I want, and so kind of a nice clean kind of line. But again, like Alex, you know, I work kind of fast and it's interesting because any of my workshops, I always use felt pens, and all the children use pens and pens. We don't use pencils, we haven't got rubbers. I have one to take the notion out of their heads of they've got to get rid of their drawing and and start again. It's like let's just commit to it. Um so whenever I'm just drawing, you know, I I I'd I'd never use a I if I even if I was using a pencil, I would just draw with that pencil, and if I was thinking, you know, I'm just sort of doodling ideas, I wouldn't then get rid of it and rework it. I would just draw something else next to it. So I kind of keep that that sort of history of what I've done, and if it's if I like it, then it then it's then why change it? But it's all there then on the computer. I work um in Adobe Illustrator, so I draw straight into Adobe Illustrator, um, which comes from my I have a graphic design background, and that comes from my love of uh that would be my favorite piece of software. Um so I've just always had Adobe Illustrator open. So when I started coming back to making comics, I just drew them in Adobe Illustrator. Um, so I can draw letter colour, produce a final piece that can be turned into a high-rise PDF.

Kev F Sutherland: 42:18

And this podcast has been brought to you by Adobe Illustrator. If Adobe would like to offer me any money at all for that endorsement, I'm more than open to it. Let's have a look again at what we were just enjoying. We were enjoying what Alex brought in, which was tell us again.

Alex Milway: 42:36

It was uh the TSR graphic novel of the Dragon Lance saga.

Marc Jackson: 42:40

And Mark brought in I brought the uh the Spider-Man versus Powdered Toastman, uh remnants to be special uh yeah from Marvel Comics.

Kev F Sutherland: 42:50

And where can the public find you this year, Alex?

Alex Milway: 42:55

Yeah, I'm Alex Milway everywhere. Oh, it's Milway with one L. There's only one of me in the world, really. So that's quite helpful for finding me. And uh yeah, new books coming out. We've got a new series, Captain Sunshine, coming out in June. So uh I'll be lots of shouting about that soon.

Marc Jackson: 43:09

And Mark. Uh you can find me on all socials. It's Mark Makes Comics, M-A R C Maked Comics, at Facebook and uh Instagram, very prominent on there. Um, and I uh my next appearance, I'm gonna be at the Yo Comics Fair in in London in March. Uh and I'm working on uh this year's MacPow uh and also I edit and publish Goof, which is a comic uh for kids that launched two years ago at MacPow. Uh so I'm just gearing up for the third issue of that and doing another self-published comic and coming up with other ideas because I can't stop.

Kev F Sutherland: 43:45

Superb. Well, I look forward to seeing you at book festivals and MacPow and elsewhere very soon, I hope. Thanks again, Alex Milway and Mark Jackson. Thank you, Kev. Lovely, thanks for having me.

Alex Milway: 43:56

Nice to meet you, Alex. Same two.

Kev F Sutherland: 44:11

Hey, if you're enjoying this episode of Comic Cuts the Panel show, don't forget there's an entire back catalogue in a first season for you to catch up on. My guests have included comic folk like Brian Bolland, Rachel Smith, Metafrog, Gary Northfield, Nigel Octaloony, Nigel Parkinson, Laura Howell, Sonia Long, David Leach. We've had the comics, laureate Hannah Berry, resident alien creator Peter Hogan, podcasters like Adam Roach, legendary singer-songwriter Dean Friedman, Jessica Martin. The list of comedians includes Ashley Story, Bethany Black, Will Hodgson, Paul Karenza, Izzy Lawrence, Doug Siegel. There is too many to list. And they've brought in comics from Marvel and DC to The Bunty and The Eagle, from Robert Crumb to Viz, Webcomics, Obscure Manga, all points in between. And sometimes we don't talk about comics at all. Don't forget to click and subscribe, leave a review, and tell a friend. For example, what could these two be talking about?

Hannah Berry: 44:59

Man with a swastika on his shirt, uh, he's got his trousers down, his bum out, and he's he's standing with his feet in a bucket of pig chicks on a stage. Um, there's lots of people looking behind him, and he's saying, uh-uh-uh, oh yes, I can feel it coming out now. Go on, fuck off out of it, you blasted queen.

Kev F Sutherland: 45:16

And don't forget, the queen is visible. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is visible in the top left hand corner. As the curtains part, the queen is in the royal box.

Hannah Berry: 45:24

So this is a royal variety.