Rachael Smith & Paul Kerensa

Quarantine Comix' Rachael Smith, and Comedy Award-winning writer & comedian Paul Kerensa, bring in panels from an exciting web comic, and an adaptation of the best selling book of all time, and talk comics with Kev F the comic artist.

See the images from the episode here on the blog (they're also in the podcast artwork).

Every episode, the guests reveal a panel from a comic, we try and guess where it's from, then we chat about it. Half an hour later hopefully we've learned something, or just shown off and had fun along the way.

If you've enjoyed this, why not buy us a virtual coffee at Kev F's Ko-Fi page.

Your host, and series creator, is Kev F Sutherland, writer and artist for Beano, Marvel, Oink, The Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre, and most recently author and artist of graphic novels based on Shakespeare. kevfcomicartist.com

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Transcript

Kev F: 0:00

Hello and welcome to Comic Cuts the Panel Show. My name's Kev F. Sutherland. You might know me as a writer and artist for Beano, Marvel Comic, Oink, Red Dwarf, Doctor Who, the Scottish Falsetto Stop Comet Theatre, and my graphic novel adaptations of Shakespeare. But chances are you probably don't. My guests today, talking comics, are Rachel Smith and Paul Karenza. Hello. Comic Cuts. We're looking at a panel, and we comprise a panel. There's a few of us. So the panel sees a panel, and we talk about the comics from the panel we discussed, and we call it Comic Cuts. Be honest. I'm impressed by that. That was great.

Rachael Smith: 0:33

That was marvellous.

Kev F: 0:34

I have two guests with me today who brought with them a panel from a comic or something similar, and we're going to see if we can identify it and talk about it. Maybe we and you will learn something about comics we didn't already know, or maybe we'll just show off a bit and have an enjoyable chat. Joining me from somewhere up north is Rachel Smith. Rachel, where up north are you?

Rachael Smith: 0:53

I'm in Altringham, uh near Manchester.

Kev F: 0:56

What's Altringham like? I think I might have been there. Would I have forgotten it?

Rachael Smith: 1:00

Um it's got a lovely market, lovely outdoor market. But it's been a funny, funny one because I moved here in December and um obviously it's only just opening up. So people keep asking me what it's like, and I'm like, I mean, the waitrose is nice, uh the corner shop's nice. There's not really anything else to do, but um, it's it's looking very nice now that I can go and shop some things.

Kev F: 1:20

Because your comic strips are rather autobiographical. Uh, the thing that we all saw last year, quarantine comics. What was the chicken and egg situation there? Did you start the quarantine comics because you had nothing else to do, or were there ongoing processes that led to that?

Rachael Smith: 1:34

Uh I actually started the pandemic so I could make comics. No, no, um, that wasn't ever happened. Um, yeah, I the I started them on March 21st, which I think was the day before we went into lockdown. And uh yeah, I'd been feeling quite despondent about everything and a bit useless and a bit sort of like, oh, I'm just drawing stuff, I'm not really helping anyone. And you know, I I didn't feel very essential. Um and uh yeah, my friend Heather reminded me that if I'm good at anything, it's uh making comics that make people feel a little bit less alone. So um I started making little comics about the lockdown and how I was feeling about it. And um to start with, it was just kind of a selfish thing to do because it was cathartic for me to get my feelings out and on paper. Um, but yeah, people started like following them on online and social media and stuff, and um I got lots of messages saying like, oh, how are you writing what's in my brain? And um, yeah, I'm feeling the same, and you're making me feel like a lot less alone going through this, and and that was really lovely. So I I carried on and um yeah, did them. Uh I did like the first 200, and then um uh my agent sorted that out to get that published in a book, um, which is out now from all good bookstores. It all good bookstores. Yeah, I'm in like proper bookshops. Yeah. My mum keeps sending me pictures of it and stuff. It's very sweet.

Kev F: 2:59

Was there any point where you you found the pressure? I mean, you said after the 200th one, and that's actually quite a daunting figure to anyone to hear.

Rachael Smith: 3:07

Yeah, I mean it's a big chunk of of work. But I actually carried on after that as well. So there are like um I think I got to about I got to nearly 300 of them, and then I had to stop because I had actual other work to do.

Kev F: 3:21

This is a thing that obviously, once upon a while, there were loads of daily newspaper strips. There aren't so many these days, but essentially that's what you were doing because the your format is a four-panel strip, just like a newspaper strip.

Rachael Smith: 3:32

But yeah, that that sort of four, I mean it wasn't always four panels, but my rule was they had to fit on a four-piece of paper. So if I did, I did have to make quite concise statements. Um, and if if I couldn't fit it on there, then maybe I wasn't really sure about what I was saying. Um but yeah, some of them did stretch to like seven panels, but then I was punished because they'd have to be really like tiny.

Kev F: 3:54

Um do your own comic strips make you laugh?

Rachael Smith: 3:57

Sometimes, yeah. Um yeah, I'll I'll like think of one and be like, yeah, that'll do well. Usually the ones with my cat did very well.

Kev F: 4:05

It's interesting that the choice of subject matter. I mean, I know it's not a conscious choice, but when you're writing, you're quite often looking at anxiety and you're looking at depression, and then you're making it funny, which for us the readers is great, but sometimes it's a little voyeuristic from our point of view because we're looking at your pain.

Rachael Smith: 4:22

It's odd actually. I I look back and I've sort of forgotten some of it, like um like that time when we were only allowed to go out once a day. Like that was crazy. And I'd kind of forgotten about that bit and I was reading through it again. I was like, oh yeah, God. Yeah, hopefully I I made light of it without making too light of it. Um, like some of the strips are quite serious, and because I was um a lot of the main sort of story arc to the book is that I was trapped away from my boyfriend for a lot of it because we were in different bubbles, and um, yeah, we didn't want to risk anything, and um, so we couldn't see each other for a while. So someone said the other day that it's gonna be like a historical document, and as a cartoonist, that's an incredibly uh grown-up thing to be called. Oh, never thought I'd be never thought I'd be uh called that.

Kev F: 5:08

But Rachel Smith is Daniel Defoe.

Rachael Smith: 5:12

Yours is the journal of the playground.

Kev F: 5:14

And also, you are in a unique position as far as this podcast is concerned, because you're the first guest we've had on whose work has already been chosen. Uh, spoiler alert for anybody who's listening who doesn't want to know what episode uh Rachel gets chosen in. Cover your ears for 30 seconds. Juliet Burton uh chose Wired Up Wrong.

Rachael Smith: 5:32

Amazing.

Kev F: 5:33

Yeah, so you're you and and suddenly this person who draws comic strips becomes a real person. It's most satisfying.

Rachael Smith: 5:42

Yes, I am actually a 3D entity, not just a black and white big cartoon face.

Kev F: 5:49

How did the cartoon version of your yourself and your face evolve? Have you always drawn yourself and you've always looked little and manga-esque?

Rachael Smith: 5:57

Yeah. Um I mean, my my roots are kind of in manga when I was a little girl. I read a lot of manga and stuff, like Sailor Moon and that. So I used to draw those like big, shiny, sparkly eyes on everything. Um and then I think I sort of went down the Scott Pilgrim path a little bit, and um and I think Brian Leo Malley is a little bit uh mangay as well. Um, but yeah, I've always put like big googly eyes on everything. I've never shied away from being very cartoony.

Kev F: 6:27

Your mention of Scott Pilgrim gives me the opportunity for a fantastically Alan Partridge-esque link. Because talking of pilgrims, as a man who's got a subject matter linked to pilgrims in a lot of his work. My other guest, it's Paul Karenza. Hello, Paul.

Paul Kerensa: 6:43

Uh, hello, hello. That's a smooth link. You've ever heard one.

Kev F: 6:46

We're looking at the titles of some of your books, Noah's Car Park, Moses and the Exodus Express, uh, the Genesis by Bluffers Guide. Uh, there's a theme there, isn't it, Paul?

Paul Kerensa: 6:55

I suppose there is, uh, which is me um uh really trying to find a niche market where there isn't one, uh, which is uh the cross, the narrow crossover between comedy and religion. And uh it's um yeah, a bit of ongoing fascination, I suppose, to uh retell some of those old stories in a hopefully fun way. But it turns out that um uh that's always an uphill struggle because some people don't want to have their religious books uh anywhere to do with comedy. So it's um it's an ongoing challenge. Really? Have you had uh hostility and negative reaction? I think I've not had I've had no placards. Um and part of that, I suppose, is that I'm coming from it from a a pro angle, I suppose. But um it's more, I think, the fact that you could just get in terms of sales, you know, it's just in terms of being the ones that latch on, uh the ones, um, the books I've done which are, you know, I I hate to say telling people what they already, the things they already know, but um, you know, I did a book touring around lots of different types of church, for example, or a book on the history of Christmas, and they um they did much better than, yeah, the book that was meant to be the retelling of the book of Genesis via sketches, uh cartoons, uh uh funny little quips and uh retellings was was the toughest what toughest book I've uh tried to get off the ground because yeah, the the religious people think I'm being too flippant with religion and the comedy people think I'm being too preachy. So there's like one one bloke in the middle who goes, yeah, that's that's the book for me.

Kev F: 8:25

We we have a bit of an overlap because I have been paid by Bible Society to do comic strip adaptations of I've done the book of Esther, I've done the book of Joseph. They haven't published them yet, they've paid me fine for them. And by the way, I'm I'm an atheist adapting Bible stories, which is, if anything, uh worse. I would say that would be uh uh the other side of bad. Um well I but I've had no hostility.

Paul Kerensa: 8:45

Well, no, well, they get when I did I did it in the the first time I dabbled in this area actually was I did a my third Edinburgh Festival show, uh which was on the book of Genesis. And uh I thought, you know, start at the beginning, you know, no one starts with Leviticus. I mean you probably glossed over that one anyway. But um uh but yeah, the the well, no, but partly because I my show wasn't uh because it was my third show, I wasn't kind of sure if I had the full hour of really good quality stuff, but also because I wanted to hear other voices, I didn't want to be just one guy preaching. Um, I had this idea where I do sort of 40 minutes, but I'd invite two different guests per show, two other comedians, to give their take on a story from Genesis, you know, and a lot of them needed to be told, which what are the stories in Genesis? I had to go, well, it's not someone came with a is Jesus in Genesis? No, he's not there yet, he's later. Um, but you've got Noah's Ark, you've got uh Abraham, so you've got Abraham and Isaac, but you've also got Abraham and Ishmael, so you've basically got sort of the grounding of Islam, the grounding of Judaism, um, Joseph and his dream coat. So any tenuous routines you have related to animals, relationships, uh, religion, uh Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals, this was the show to do them in, you know. And and it was great. I had about 30 or 40 different comedians coming and giving their take on these stories. And uh, yeah, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Christians, all sorts. And yeah, you know, just because you're an atheist, you can still talk about these things in, I think, a fun way. Um, the ones who I think didn't go across great were the ones who just spent 10 minutes going, well, it's not true, is it? It's all a fairy tale. You but it's fine if you want to. And in fact, all audience members who say, Well, I I side with with that guy, I believe what he said, but kind of ruined the show for me because it's like you don't go watch Cinderella going with someone going, Oh, by the way, this is all rubbish. You know, you go, let's let's invest in this story and tell us that story that has been retold many times over the last few uh thousand years, you know.

Kev F: 10:32

I started by coming into that religious angle, Paul, and that was only because of that mention of Scott Pilgrim. I'm I'm regretting it already. Uh Paul is the award-winning writer for Miranda and not going out. You've got RTS awards, you've got comedy awards after nominations.

Paul Kerensa: 10:46

I've never seen them, but apparently, uh, yeah, I I got I share a I share a uh you know a little you know tiny square millimeter of of some of them, perhaps. But uh but yeah, you know, I I just work with uh other, I I cling to the coattails of uh of other successful people, uh really. And uh so yeah, Lee Mack, Miranda Hart, Chris Evans, people like that. But um, and of course, with each of those people, my advice to any writer who does what I've done is you've got to find the ones who are gonna keep making TV shows. So, like Chris Evans is now just doing radio. I'm going, well, that doesn't that's no good for me. Miranda Hart's doing children's books, great, but come back to telly, you know. So um, yeah, right now I'm just clinging to Lee. That's it. There was one team-written sitcom I did called After You've Gone, which was a Nicholas Lyndhurst sitcom about 10, 15 years ago. And it was an American showrunner who has really come over to the UK to try and get that American style of sitcom going. But of course, in America, they've got a budget and they could get 30 writers and coffee and donuts. And over here, you could afford five writers, and we had to bring our own donuts, and we're all a bit grumpy when we got there. So uh it's you know, we tried and we gave it a go, but I think in this country we we go for the the sole creator or all writing partnerships, that sort of thing, you know. But uh the team written thing, I think you it will work, but only if you've got that really big budget. And um I work with um I did the the the uh Chris Evans and Matt LeBlanc series of of Top Gear. And uh if you didn't see it, it went really well. And if you did see it, you know differently. But um, but working with Matt was a dream come true because I was you know I grew up on friends and and he loves talking about friends as well, which is great. I just was there hang on on every anecdote. But I think he was surprised because we got to the studio and he'd worked with us a bit in the office, and so he's like, Okay, where are the where are the writers for for a huddle to look at this line that I've now got to say? And like I turned up and then one other guy, and we're like, and he's like, Well, is this it? And I go, Yeah, this is this is the BBC now, you know, this is not NBC. We don't have 15 people who gather in and quickly, you know, give all their sort of New York wit. You've got a bloke from Surrey and a bloke from Essex and and you and your brain. So good luck.

Kev F: 12:51

Well, let's see how our group huddling and team consultation works on the Zoom call today. I've asked everybody on the panel to bring a panel to the panel. Uh, you'll be able to see these images on my website, kefcomicartist.com. They should also be on the episode artwork from these podcasts, depending where you get your podcasts from. But don't worry if you can't see these pictures, because we're going to describe them. And Rachel, with your blessing, I'd like to have a look at your panel first. Now, Paul, have a look at what you can see on that screen. And for the listener at home, have a go at describing it.

Paul Kerensa: 13:29

So I can see uh I can see a square. It's a house, it's uh uh a couple of suburban houses actually, side by side, terraced houses. Uh it's May, is the uh is the caption at the very top. And uh top uh left window, we've got a woman uh combing cone comb, it says, as the comb uh goes through the thing. Uh you've got um uh uh really it's about uh two people leaving the house, uh uh off to school. Morning, Ryan, morning Jonesy, and you can see people in the windows there. You can see the kissing of a couple, you can see uh people getting ready for the day, you can see someone uh uh seemingly uh uh helping them in some position, uh, and people leaving for school. And uh it's a nice, uh it's a suburban scene, and it's um you could see the things going on in the houses.

Kev F: 14:13

For the purpose of the panelologists, people who study line and composition, that sort of thing, I would say that although these look like brush lines, my guess would be that this has actually been drawn on computer. The colouring is flat, deliberately so, and uh wonderfully so. It's got a almost a screen print-like quality to it, but also a digital colouring quality, which you immediately recognise. There's something about the choice of those pastel tones, which seems to come from your Photoshop template and otherwise. It's a British suburban street, I would say. I mean, could possibly be Australian, but no, it's definitely British, isn't it? These are two three-story semi-detached houses with school children in British uh secondary school uniforms walking out of the doors with backpacks slung over their shoulders, which I assume is what the kids do these days. I used to have a briefcase myself. And someone's playing an acoustic guitar in a window, and someone in a top window oh, it's a mother tying up a child's tie, I think.

Paul Kerensa: 15:11

Although it does for a moment look like it could be a murder. But yeah, it is, it's definitely a British street, isn't it? It's got that that um sort of slate grey colour that was clearly popular about 30 years ago when building houses. And Paul, would you like to have a guess at what comic or kind of comic this could be from? I don't know. I honestly don't know. Is it aimed at older children? I don't know. I'm keen to know more.

Kev F: 15:32

Okay, and I similarly am drawing a blank, but um I would say that this is a book from the last 10 years. Uh, and I would say it's from a book, not from a floppy comic or a serialized strip. And it could have appeared as a webcomic, but I'm saying this is in a graphic novel, and I'm saying this is a graphic novel that's probably widely distributed. I wouldn't be surprised to find this on the shelves in Waterstones. It may be uh something whose spine I've looked at. As for its name, I don't know. So let's have a guess that it's called Ryan and Jonesy. Rachel, put us out of our misery. What is it?

Rachael Smith: 16:05

So this is from a webcomic um by John Allison, and it was from a story called Expecting to Fly, and it was published in 2014. Can I talk about why this panel is this is a panel that's just always stayed with me. Um so even if this is the only panel you see about these two characters, I think we're just we're shown so much about them. So um, yeah, you've got Tim South on the on the left here. Sorry, um, yeah, Tim Jones is his name. Uh, and you can see him combing his hair and he's putting his blazer on like with with pride, and then he goes and kisses his mum goodbye. He's like the perfect child. And um, and then we've got Ryan on the right hand side. I'm not sure what he's doing in the top window, but he looks a bit spaced out. Maybe he's woken up late.

Kev F: 16:52

Oh, are those previous panels them en route to the door? Yeah, so it's not a house which has got four siblings in it. Yes, it's them in the various senses.

Paul Kerensa: 17:01

Oh very clever. And I've got to say, I saw I know you were about to say all this stuff, but I just I've it's it's taken me this long to sort of really take in the fact that, yeah, one house is two is twice as big as the other.

Rachael Smith: 17:11

Yeah.

Paul Kerensa: 17:12

And and the lawn as well, the manicured lawn in the bigger house versus the.

Rachael Smith: 17:16

That's one of my that's one of my favourite details. So Tim's house has this lovely, beautiful lawn outside, and Ryan's house uh it's kind of overgrown and has some dandelions in it. And yeah, again, that tiny detail just kind of shows us maybe the maybe Ryan's family has different priorities, maybe they just don't have enough time to to do that kind of thing. Um, and yeah, just to finish off, yeah, um Ryan's kind of having a fight with his mum, he's she's trying desperately to get him to wear a tie, maybe doesn't want to. Then we see Ryan uh brushing his teeth, it looks like toothpaste is going everywhere. And then Yen in the living room, he's saying some guitar, he probably has about 30 seconds before he needs to be out the door, but he's like he lives quite fast and loose. And then yeah, they're both out the door just saying, saying happily saying good morning to each other, even though they've had very different mornings. And uh off they go to school. And I just yeah, we're just told so much about these characters, the the relationship with their mums, the their morning routines, the the environments that they're both growing up in. And um, I don't know, I this could have been a scene where like this this comic, this whole scene could have played out differently. It's we could have just seen them uh coming out of their houses, and then the dialogue could have been like, hey, how was your morning? Oh, I had a fight with my mum, I got toothpasted everywhere. What did you do? Oh yeah, I just put my blazer on and kiss my mum, and it's it was all fine. I don't see why you have to make such a big deal of getting ready for school. And that that would have told us all the same information, but doing it like this is just such a succinct way of getting that information across. And now their walk to school can can deal with something else. We can we can be told what to say other parts of the story can be developed. Um I just think it's a perfect example example of show don't tell, and and also just a perfect example of how uh comics can be such a wonderful medium to tell a story in in quite an understated way sometimes.

Kev F: 19:05

The more you look, the more you get at an image like this. Is the whole rest of the story taught told like this or is it paced in very different ways?

Rachael Smith: 19:12

It is, I mean, if you've ever read John Allison's work and I'd really, really recommend it. He is one of the greats. Um every page is kind of a setup and a joke, but also um, yeah, you're meant to read them in in in one chunk, but because he used to post um kind of uh uh I think it used to be three times a week when when this one was out, um I think he he kind of gave us a little bit of a joke every every day when we when we read the page because we've been waiting for it. Um so yeah, it is it's is a similar pace. There's all there's always a lot to to find out about. It's he so he this um story is set in Tackleford, and uh which is a made-up world uh of John's, and the the that world is just so rich and has so many little Easter eggs if you know um that world. But it's also perfectly you know um fine if you've if you've never read anything. It's he has he treads that balance very well.

Kev F: 20:05

Um made up towns are a great British tradition in comics, isn't it? Uh Melchester Rovers is I think what Roy of the Rovers used to play for. Or is that the one that Billy the Fish plays for? Uh I by the way, there's been a lot of that. And Och and Toggle. Anyone remember who lives in Ochentoggle? No. Urwallion the Runes.

Rachael Smith: 20:22

Oh, okay.

Kev F: 20:24

Uh John Allison's uh webcomic, has it been collected up, do you know?

Rachael Smith: 20:28

Some of it, yeah. Uh so his series Bad Machinery has been collected up in in several uh uh graphic novels. Um he he wrote Giant Days as well, which did very well with Max Sarin on uh on art. And at the minute he's working on Steeple, which I think you can read online. There's loads of his stories you can read online. He he published a lot a lot of stuff for free.

Kev F: 20:50

How would you feel about work being uh adapted into other mediums? Because something like this is the sort of material that quite often finds itself made either into animations or made into uh TV and movie drama.

Rachael Smith: 21:02

It's really funny you said that actually. Uh I've been at Anasi Animation Festival um all of last week because one of my books got selected for me to pitch it as an animation.

Kev F: 21:11

Oh wow, how's that go?

Rachael Smith: 21:13

So I had to make like a five-minute video because obviously, usually I would go to Anasi, which is in France, and pitch like live, but yeah, it was it wasn't quite safe enough to do that. Um I did it all online. So I made a video and gave people the PDF of the book, and then animation studios that were interested in talking to me would um get in touch with me on like this, they had this little um networking platform. And um, yeah, I had like 13 meetings in like two days, which was exhausting. Um, but it was nice that so many people were interested.

Kev F: 21:46

So yeah.

Rachael Smith: 21:47

Yeah.

Kev F: 21:48

Well, that was fabulous. We've just been looking at Expecting to Fly by John Allison, a very impressive piece of work for you to still find online. Would I be right, Rachel?

Rachael Smith: 21:58

I'm not sure expecting to fly is still. Online, but there's a lot of stuff of John Allison's online.

Kev F: 22:03

Picking up John Allison. And now I think we're going to have a look at what Paul has brought in. Now, listener at home, you should be able to find this image on my website, kefcomicartist.com, and you should find it on the episode image wherever you get your podcast from. But you're not going to need to see it because of the exemplary fashion in which Rachel's going to describe it. Rachel, what are you looking at?

Rachael Smith: 22:27

Um, oh golly, so it's um a sort of black and white, I think it's an inkwash um panel, and um it's got like um, I think a mountain and two people on the top having a conversation, and then we're overlooking New York. I think that's the Chrysler building. I don't know New York too well. Um, and then there's a very disconcerting figure right at the front. I I think that's this one of the same figures that's on top of the mountain. Um, and he just has like these two little beady eyes and no nose and no mouth. It's a bit scary. Um, so that we've got um uh um just a panel saying Satan took Jesus to the top of the highest mountain. Surely every messiah has his price. And then one of the figures is going, Behold the world, every kingdom and civilization, even those beyond our space and time, all this authority I will give you if you worship me. And the other person is saying, Be gone, Satan, for it is written, Worship the Lord your God and serve him only. Oh, so this scary-looking figure, I think, is Satan. Um, and then in the foreground he's saying, Very well, you've won for now until the next one.

Kev F: 23:39

For the benefit of the panelologists at home, people who study line and texture and comic technique, this is a black and white line and wash drawing, and it is printed on the sort of paper that makes you realise it's in a paperback, uh, maybe even hardback book. Printed in black and white, intended to be seen only in black and white, I would say. And it's very manga style in its printing in Finnish, but the lettering is very um English language, uh lettered on computer. The picture of New York in the background is a photograph that's been digitally treated. And it's a number of photographs montaged together, one part of which appears to be Chinatown in another city like San Francisco, maybe not from New York. Anyway, it's a montage of North America in the background behind um characters. Yeah, we've had Satan described there. The words are certainly the words of the voice ball was very clearly from the Bible. I think we've got the source there, uh, but the caption has um has taken uh a few liberties and abbreviated things. Surely every messiah had his price, it's not the sort of rhetoric that I think you find in the King James version. Uh Rachel, would you like to guess uh where this is from?

Rachael Smith: 24:46

Golly, I have no idea. Did did Jesus make a graphic novel? Is it by Jesus?

Paul Kerensa: 24:52

I like to think there's a forgotten parchment somewhere.

Rachael Smith: 24:56

It's like, oh, you forgot to put all my drawings in the book.

Kev F: 25:02

I'm gonna have my stab in the dark because I do know that there was a uh graphic novel Bible done by an artist called Shiku, who S-I-K-U, who previously worked for 2000 AD. And this could conceivedly be his style, although I think his book was supposed to be in colour. But I don't know. Uh Paul, what is it we're looking at?

Paul Kerensa: 25:21

You are exactly right. Shiku, there you go. Shiku. The manga Bible. Uh, this is the uh the raw edition, which I think just means it contains the old and new testaments. Because I think uh obviously a book like this took a little bit of time to uh to put together. And um, yes, it's by uh Shiku. And um, yeah, that's I I could have picked anything from there. If I I as a comedian, I probably should have picked something funny. Um, but I didn't. I chose I picked this one because I thought who else is going to pick the manga Bible? So here we are. Well, I mean, I I think a lot of people would have picked the manga Bible. I've seen a colour version. Are you aware of a colour version? Yeah, I think well, in fact, I got this, I don't know when I got this now, uh, at least 10 years ago. And I think since then there are now some different uh different versions people have caught onto this. Yeah, 2007 this was. Um, but there are some colour versions, certainly since, and some different different people are doing different versions like this. Because it's yeah, it's uh in terms of those people who trying to, like you know, you've worked for Bible Society, trying to get different versions of the story out there to different people, the growth, I think, of graphic novels and people actually take it more seriously means that, yeah, publishers are now uh commissioning things in this area.

Kev F: 26:27

Yeah, I guess the reason that we'd have done the manga Bible is as a black and white version, which I think is possibly taking a Shiku's colour version and turning it into this black and white version, that would explain the photo montage in the background that may have looked totally different in colour. Obviously, print a black and white book and you can make it way, way cheaper. The colour book would have had to be over 20 quid.

Paul Kerensa: 26:47

Yeah, this was $8.99 uh Hodder and Staton. There you go. And that was uh 2007.

Kev F: 26:51

Does it have to cut a lot of the um the book? Obviously, it has to pick and choose, doesn't it?

Paul Kerensa: 26:55

Well, it does. Uh bits it glosses over, um, and bits it changes, like for example, the the quotations here. I I can't remember the exact wording in any of the uh traditional translations, but I'm pretty sure space and time is something that is not included in anything but this one. Um but what I think one of the reasons I I kind of liked this this panel is that it's one of those, one of the many times in here where they you know they do take a few liberties, but they it shows how uh by actually illustrating it, you can add to it in so many ways that when you you know you can read a dozen different translations that talks about, you know, I will give you all of these cities and it tells you all about you know the devil taking Jesus out of the wilderness. This is before sort of the ministry of Jesus, before he goes off and does any parables, miracles, those sorts of things. The devil, you know, goes into the 40 days, Lent, all that sort of thing, uh, and tries to tempt uh Jesus. And when you see it written down, yeah, it just says he shows him the cities of the world. But of course, back then you think of the cities of the world being fairly uh dusty and limited. But they've yeah, showed you here the Chrysler building and uh different cities from across the world. And I think you've even got hints of sort of ancient temples and things like that. So it's past, present, future, um, yeah, the entire planet, and indeed beyond our space and time. So it just gives it a little bit more scope and scale, I think, that you get from any text.

Kev F: 28:15

Well, there are a lot of traditions that say you shouldn't depict things. I mean, you're not supposed to make graven images. And I know the the uh the We Free Church up in Scotland, and and the Puritans, of course, back in uh Henry VIII day, uh, it was all about getting rid of those images. The stations of the cross were taken down, the stained glass windows were taken down, and not being allowed to depict any of this is actually quite a touchstone for a lot of people, isn't it?

Paul Kerensa: 28:37

Well, yeah, I and I don't think the manga Quran would have sold quite so many copies.

Kev F: 28:41

Um but the manga Bible to a lot of strict people, uh to a lot of people whose observation is interpreted in a different way, would still be verboten.

Paul Kerensa: 28:48

I think the thing is that actually a lot of uh every churchgoer I know has their either favorite version of the Bible, or indeed those who haven't quite settled on a favorite, certainly maybe have settled on ones that they just think isn't quite right. And you do get a complete range of those that are quite conservative and stick to um you know the the version of the King James kind of more type. Those who take a lot more, uh who've changed it a lot more, often that's to do with changing it from being quite so uh masculine in terms of the lots of he's and that hymns. And oh, you get a few hymns still in church. Um thanks. I'm here all week, but uh till Sunday, I have a day off. But um uh but yeah, you know, that you there are ways of taking uh there's a version of the Bible called the Amplified Bible, which it takes every single adjective really or noun and gives every possible translation. So it will have in brackets after every word, we'd say arc brackets boat or vehicle or vessel. And as a result, the amplified Bible is huge. Uh so you know, you it's thorough but too huge. So something like this, I think I like the fact that it's trimmed down, it's uh it's not big. I'm holding up to the screen now, and it's you know, it's it's it's like a centimetre and a half in terms of uh terms of pages. It feels a lot more readable than I think any other version of the Bible I've ever come across. And but yeah, you you know, some people would take issue with it, but I think the sort of people who take issue with it are probably the sort of people who aren't really gonna be tempted to pick up a graphic novel or or a comic book anyway, uh, in any case. So uh I think it's for its target market, I can see that it does its job well.

Kev F: 30:22

Is God given a look, or is it just uh is he like reader's voice in the vino just off the side?

Paul Kerensa: 30:28

Yeah, it's pretty much um, I mean, look, I'll go to for some some random other pages here. You've got uh uh, for example, the uh the parting of the of the Red Sea with Moses. Uh you've got some great bits of uh of of sort of the Old Testament stuff, I think does it really well in terms of things like Samson uh shaking the temple, you know, Samson and Delilah, Samson's at chained up and the temple thing crashes down.

Kev F: 30:52

Those are stories that are though the reason those got made into Cecil B. DeMille's films is that those stories uh from the Jewish Bible are big, dynamic, often visually orientated stories. Uh, we were talking about my adaptation of Book of Esther, I did Joseph as well, which has got great visuals, action and drama and stuff to show. Um, but then there's things like doesn't God make it clear you're not supposed to depict him? Oh, and also you're not supposed to say his name.

Paul Kerensa: 31:19

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the it technically, if you go back sort of uh some traditions would, you know, have like this. I always think of it, the Raiders of the Lost Art version, isn't it? The uh the Yahweh, but you take out the vowels, you don't do the vowels in uh, you know, in tradition. But um Hashem. Yeah, exactly. So I think there are traditions that would say that, but I think there'd be few and far between nowadays. And uh and yeah, there's something for there's something for everybody in these sort of flavours, really. You wouldn't necessarily take a literal view of all of these things. Some of these are just stories that have been told, and there's a truth within them, perhaps, but you know, whatever you want to find with it. It's a great story, I think is the main thing I take from this. Um, but for example, one of the bits that a lot of Christians and Jews I think would gloss over in the in the book of Genesis at the very start, is that there was um sort of before Noah, like this uh this race of giants, it says there, that um uh and a literal interpretation would go, yeah, there was this race of of giants who lived on earth, the Nephilim. Um, and of course, in the comic book or graphic novel, they're not going to shy away from that. So in in this one here, um they're depicting those and going, yeah, there's kind of big, scary wolf giant things, you know. Something like this, though, that that that appeals to the visual sensibilities of someone going, that's epic. The whole scope and scale of the Old Testament certainly is is epic. So you've got wars and all that stuff that normally in church they gloss over to because it's a bit bloody and a bit epic and a bit violent, and they go for the the still small voice of calm stuff in a book like this, you know, yeah, still small voice of calm, we'll have that, but let's, you know, they pack it full of those big epic fights, good versus evil, light versus dark. And indeed, going back to this particular panel, they've actually got the words of of Satan here in kind of black speech bubbles, whereas the words of Jesus in the white speech bubbles. So, and you know, Satan himself here with kind of this Voldemort, you know, noseless, my my Satan's got no nose. How does he smell awful um kind of depiction? And uh yeah, the whole light versus dark thing, which go, you know, there's loads of that in uh certainly in John's gospel and throughout the Bible, but before that, you know, the Gnostics of the time, you go back a couple of thousand years, and this there were whole cults based around this light versus dark thing, and it's a very evocative thing that we still see in you know TV dramas today and indeed in a in a panel like this.

Kev F: 33:33

We've just been looking at the manga Bible, adapted by Shiku S-I-K-U, uh, available as we've discovered in a variety of formats. And we've been looking at the work of John Allison. We were looking at Expecting to Fly, but there is also Bad Machinery, Giant Days, and many other pieces of work. John Allison got two L's in.

Rachael Smith: 33:51

Yes.

Kev F: 33:52

So now you know I hope so.

Rachael Smith: 33:54

I think I think it's two L's, yes. And John J-O-H-N.

Kev F: 33:59

Excellent. Uh that was Comic Cuts. If you've enjoyed it or got any questions, you should be able to find us all on our social media. Rachel, where do we find you on the socials?

Rachael Smith: 34:07

I'm on Twitter, uh Rachel spell R-A-C-H-A-E-L with an underscore after it. And yeah, I'm probably more active on that one. Or my website, rachelsmith.org, has all the socials on it, which is probably easier.

Paul Kerensa: 34:20

And Paul, where do we find you? Uh I'm I'm at PaulCorenza on most things. So uh yeah, you have to spell Carenza correctly, but I'm not going to tell you how to do that. You can work it out for yourself.

Kev F: 34:31

And also you can find Paul's uh current podcast, The British Broadcasting Century.

Paul Kerensa: 34:37

Did I get that right? You did get that right, and uh yeah, that's uh telling the story of the origins of the BBC. And in fact, I didn't go on it on this occasion, but I um just a little treat for those who are watching. I've got this is one I got recently, the 50 Years of Radio Comedy Um from 1972. And it even it includes some old comic strips of the early radio uh comedy characters. So uh it's uh it's kind of little comic panels from a from a different era.

Kev F: 35:04

And of course, the other most urgent comic book that you must buy is Quarantine Comics by Rachel Smith, available genuinely in all of the best bookshops. Uh you'll find me on Twitter at Kev F Comic Artist and at the website kevfcomicartist.com. Please click subscribe to be sure of hearing every episode when it comes out and leave us a review. Why don't you? Thanks again to Rachel Smith and Paul Carenza and to you for listening. I've been Kev F, and this has been Comic Cuts, the panel show, yeah.