Women's Retirement Radio

Joe Casey - The Benefits of Retirement Coaching - Episode 52

February 07, 2022 Russ Thornton Season 3 Episode 6
Women's Retirement Radio
Joe Casey - The Benefits of Retirement Coaching - Episode 52
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode of Women's Retirement Radio, I'm joined by Joe Casey.

Joe is an Executive Coach and Retirement Coach who brings extensive experience navigating transitions from his coaching work with clients and from his own life and career. He's also the founder of Retirement Wisdom and the Retirement Wisdom podcast.

Joe brings an interesting background and perspective to the topic of retirement, and I really enjoyed our conversation. I think you will too.

For more on Joe, please check out these resources:

Get in touch and let me know what you think or if you have any questions.

And thank you for listening.

Visit my website to learn more.

Disclosures

Russ Thornton:
Hi. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Women's Retirement Radio. I'm your host Russ Thornton. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Joe Casey. Joe comes to us from Retirement Wisdom. So welcome, Joe.

Joe Casey:
Thanks, Russ. Great to be here.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. Well, I'm glad to have this conversation with you and happy we can share it with our listeners. Why don't you begin by just telling us a little bit about who you are and the work that you do?

Joe Casey:
Sure. So I'm a former, some would say reformed, HR person. I worked at Merrill Lynch 26 years and then became an executive coach in 2009. And about halfway through that chapter in my career, people started asking me, "Hey, can you help me figure out what to do, because I want to retire early? I don't want to be here when I'm 55, don't want to be when I'm 60." I started looking into it, so I built a second coaching practice. So as you both know, executive coaching and retirement coaching, to help people figure out what to do next after they graduate from the world of full-time work. It's a phrase I picked up from an author, Barbara O'Neill, for a book called Flipping A Switch, and I think it really captures most of my clients. They're looking to graduate to this new life and it may include some work, but they're moving out of the corporate realm or their profession.

Russ Thornton:
Well, thanks for sharing that. I like the terminology around graduating from full-time work. I was reviewing your website ahead of this conversation, Joe, and I saw that the subtitle to Retirement Wisdom is to Retire Smarter. I'd love it if you could just take maybe a moment or two and share your perspective on what it means to retire smarter based on your own experiences, as well as the coaching work that you've done with folks, both in an executive setting and then more specifically around retirement.

Joe Casey:
Sure. I appreciate that. For me, it's about balance in two ways. First balancing your planning about this next phase of life with the financial planning you do on retirement, but also thinking about how you're going to invest your time. Because when you think about it, the financial assets and time assets are both precious resources. You can usually figure out some way to make more money, but we can't figure out how to make more time. So really helping people think through how do you really want to invest it? Because there are some disappointing survey results that show that a lot of people default to screens, the amount of time that people spend in the retirement years watching TV and other screens is eye popping. It's very high percentage of time. And I don't think that's what most people had in mind when they think about moving on from the world of full-time work.

Joe Casey:
Secondary balance is, I think that the work that you do in financial planning is left brain oriented. It's logical, it's linear, it's scientific in a way. You've really got to really be solid in that way and use the left brain approach. The work I do in helping people plan for how they're going to invest their time is right brain. And I think you need both.

Joe Casey:
The right brain part's much more creative, much more about looking at the future in a different way. And I think complimenting one with the other really works well. One of my favorite quotes, I read a book last year by an author by the name of Brian David Johnson, wrote a book called The Future You. He was Intel's first futurist. And the book is about taking the techniques he uses as a futurist consulting with governments and corporations and the military and applying them to life. He had a great quote about retirement. Said, "The most important asset and the most underutilized in retirement planning is imagination." And that's what that right brain part gets into is imagining what different futures could be like, and what's going to be the best pathway for you going forward. And that's what I help people do.

Russ Thornton:
Interesting. Could you give us maybe a little bit more of a practical example, Joe, of how you help people think about balance and how they're going to spend their time in retirement? I think it's super important that you're helping people address this and I agree that it does not get the time and attention that it certainly deserves in the financial planning industry and basically retirement planning at large. Could you give us maybe a little bit more specific idea if someone's sitting down with you and says, "Hey, Joe, I'd love your help on, get some retirement coaching to think about graduating from full-time work." Could you give us maybe a specific example or a practical example of how that conversation would actually go or maybe give us a taste of maybe one or more of the exercises or tools that you maybe bring to the table?

Joe Casey:
Sure, absolutely. I'm trained as a coach in a lot of different approaches and disciplines and I did that intentionally because I started to study the great coaches we used in my corporate career. And I was curious about what made the great ones great, and the average ones average and what I discovered, the ones who really were very effective, had a range of tools, and they were able to apply them in the situation for each client.

Joe Casey:
One of the things I'm trained in that I use for retirement planning, not exclusively, but it's very helpful is an approach called Design Your Life. It was developed by two people at Stanford, Dave Evans and Bill Burnett. Bill Burnett runs the design school, Dave Evans teaches there, but he's also, and they both have had industry experience. They both were early Apple employees, Evans ran electronic arts.

Joe Casey:
He once said to me, if your teenagers are addicted to video games, blame him, but they basically took the principles of design thinking and applied it to life planning. And I'm one of the few people that are trained that are using it for retirement. That'll change over time. But what it does to answer your question, is it ultimately helps us collaborate on designing three alternative visions of your future over the next five years. And why is that important? Because, for everyone it's very different. What's going to be a great next five years for you or me could be different what's it going to be like for someone listening, it's going to be completely different. So what are your priorities and how do you really make it happen?

Joe Casey:
And the way to do that is really by doing some creative brainstorming. They have a technique called mind mapping where you really do some ideation, idea generation, around the things that are most important to you and what could be, but it's rooted in what really your values are and what matters most to you and where you are at this stage of life.

Joe Casey:
As a dashboard, we start off with taking a look at how full are your gauges in four areas of life, your relationships, your work, you say, "What does that have to do with that, I'm retiring," but most people want to keep working the mix to some degree. I had a new client today who is 76, an expert in his field and he wants to keep working in some new redesigned way. And that's not uncommon.

Joe Casey:
So it looks at relationships. It looks at work, it looks at health, how you're feeling about health. And then finally it looks at how do you feel about playing, the fun aspect of life, which sometimes we really neglect when we're on that grindstone of making a living. And then we flip it forward and say, "Where do you want to be five years now? How will these gauges, think of a gas tank gauge, how will they look five years from now?

Joe Casey:
Usually what happens is the low ones for people are play and to some degree health, meaning they want to get in better shape. They want to do the things for their health that they always wanted to do. Those are the two there. The play ones are very low. And that's something that now people have time to explore, but where you begin? And we begin looking at things that they always wanted to do, but never had time on the leisure side. The people who want to play golf all the time, don't need me. They don't come to me. They think what I do is humorous and amusing, but I think they discover golf and CNBC are good for some people, but not for most. And we start there with where people are. We then do this mind mapping type of thing based on values.

Joe Casey:
And then we get into really designing what the future looks like over a five year period of time in all aspects of your life. And then we evaluate each of those three paths. How do you feel about it? How excited are you? What resources will it take and how do you feel about that to pull it off? And then, how does it literally sync up with your values? How in sync is it with what you're all about and how coherent it is? And those three paths are very different. The first one is what usually a client comes to me with what they're thinking about doing, "I want to start a business," or "I want to write a book. I want to have a portfolio," which is what most people do that I work with of activities.

Joe Casey:
And then we look at the second one, what would happen if you can't do that for any reason? What else could you do? That's where it takes some work? Because people are, "Well, I only have one plan." So we work on plan B and third one's a lot of fun. It's called the wild card. And that's, if there were no constraints at all, financial, geographic, your family's desires or interests, if you could do anything completely, anything, what would it be? And I haven't had anyone do that plan 100%. And the authors have told me that only 5% of the people they've worked with have really followed those paths. But what I've seen it do is it gives you new ideas to expand your thinking. So where people come out of this with this broader possibilities, some different ideas to start to work with. And then I know it's a long answer.

Joe Casey:
We then move into next phase which is prototyping, which is really where the magic happens. And that's identifying people you can talk with. Some in your network and others who you don't know, who are doing what you might want to do next. So let's take the person who said, "I always really wanted to write a book." I've had someone do that. Well, who are people that you know who have written books or who were some authors who you could reach out to? And those conversations aren't about you, they're about them. Thirty minutes, what do they like about what do they do? How do they get started? What do I need to know about it? And I've had some people discover that what they thought they wanted to do wasn't so good. It was different. The path was harder and they chose a different route.

Joe Casey:
I had one actually just reach out to me recently and she had decided to take a different path, said it was the best decision she ever made. It comes with that. So it's about a three to six month process depending on the person. And we go through that and after the prototyping, people start to make that happen, implement it. But you're doing it from a much better informed place. You've talked to a lot of people, you've got a real sense of what it takes and you've got a clear idea of where you want to go.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah, so I appreciate you sharing that level of detail. The thing that comes to mind for me is, around prototyping is, for lack of a better word testing an idea. I guess an example that I can relate to is, I have a lot of people say, "Well, yeah, I'm getting close to retirement. I want to buy a second home at the beach or the mountains or whatever," and something, I always often tell them, "Well, have you ever spent more than a couple weeks in that location? You should go spend maybe six or eight weeks there to see if you really like being there for more than just a couple weeks at a time to again, and kind of test the idea in a low stakes, low commitment way." I really like the idea of prototyping and again, my terminology, testing some of the ideas or some of the things that people think they might want to do before they go jump in with both feet and then find out, "Holy crap, I didn't know this was what was involved. This is not what I thought it was," like you mentioned, I think that's fantastic.

Joe Casey:
No, it's a great point because as you know, when all of a sudden you go to that beach house and it's off season, it's a different feel.

Russ Thornton:
No kidding. So, I'm curious, Joe, when you're doing the retirement coaching and introducing say the Designing Your Life tools and exercises and process, are you typically dealing with, in the example of a married couple, are you typically working one with one person or are you working with both spouses or does it just depend on the circumstances?

Joe Casey:
Sure. So it comes up in a couple ways. I do work with some couples. I'm not a marriage counselor. My only qualification has been married 41 years because I married the right person so I bring that to the table, but I have worked with people together. More commonly though, my clients work individually with me and then involve their spouse or partner on their own, which I like, because here's why I think that's effective. Both can work. But if someone individually takes the time to start to get a sense of their path, their direction, what their values are, they're better prepared to engage with their spouse or partner. And my big advice then is make sure you're doing it in listening mode, not sales mode, you're not selling them on your dream and your path. You're really saying, "Let me share this. What do you think?" And really getting them engaged.

Joe Casey:
I've had some clients take the exercises I mentioned like the mind mapping and do that with their spouse or partner. And that's been very helpful. And it's important as you know, in the work you do, because there's a fidelity study that asked couples, "When is your spouse going to retire?" And the majority did not get it right. So it's one of these topics that isn't talked about enough and people are sometimes at different stages of life and priorities different, but the conversations, it gives a framework for conversations that can help gain some clarity.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. Interesting. So, I guess a related question and I think you've started to address this, but from your perspective, Joe, what would you say is the biggest challenge that you help people address through your coaching work? And let me clarify that by saying, I think a lot of people maybe come to you or maybe come to me, thinking they need to focus on this, but in fact, there's maybe some more kind of first principles or foundational thinking or awareness they need to work on. So I'm just curious from your perspective, what would you say is the biggest challenge you help people address or solve?

Joe Casey:
Sure. What I observe is it's slightly different for men than for women, not to generalize because that's always dangerous. But men come to me and I was very surprised at this [inaudible 00:14:20] at first. I shouldn't have been, but they will often say, "It happened this morning again. So I'm really afraid." They start talking about their fears and they said, it quickly followed by, "I've never talked to anyone about this before." And so there's value in putting that on the table. There's value in talking that through without even naming them and I'm pretty direct. I just always ask them, "Afraid of what?" And the things that come up are, "I'm afraid I'll be bored because I've had an interesting career. Afraid I won't be relevant," giving to the status they're going to change from a different position. "And I'm afraid that a lot of my social contacts really come from my work relationships and I've seen people who once they leave they're out of the loop. So I'm afraid I'll be lonely."

Joe Casey:
With my women clients, it's a little different. They're, well, as we know being married, they're a lot smarter than we are generally. [crosstalk 00:15:18]. I mean that, but in particular, they've built social networks in different ways than sometimes peak career oriented men are even career oriented women have, they've got more multidimensional social context. So that's not as much of an issue.

Joe Casey:
What I tend to help both genders with is dealing with the fear of uncertainty. And clearly back on the financial side of things, people can develop a sense of certainty. On this side, it's trying to take what is very gray and uncertain in contrast to what their life has been up until this point from a direction and start to add some certainty through doing experiments. Try this, test this, explore this. And they start to see, "Oh, I can see now of a path. I can see maybe this. That's not right for me, but this might be." And so I think it starts to take initial ideas, test them, refine them and make them real.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. Again, back to testing ideas, which I think is a great way to challenge some of people's ideas or preconceived notions or assumptions. I think that's fantastic.

Russ Thornton:
I'm curious, Joe, how do your clients find you? I'm sure it's word of mouth and things like that, but maybe even more to the point, who's a great client for you? Who do you find yourself typically working with and where do you find the opportunity to do the most meaningful work?

Joe Casey:
Sure. That's a great question. The biggest thing are people who are "retiring," but they're not done yet. Meaning they want to do some something else with the rest of their life, but they don't exactly know what. They've got some idea. "I think I might want to do this. Might do that." I have one client who said, "I need help narrowing it down because I have so many ideas." He was 75 and selling his business. He said, "I've got big plans for next 10 years, but I don't know which one's the right one to really double down on." I think just people and they don't have to do anything. My clients don't always do grand things, some do, but they're looking to unlock the combination of what's going to be the right lifestyle for me now where I've put so much into work, so much into family. Now I've got this time, this gift of time, this freedom. And I want to be able to make it work.

Joe Casey:
Clients find me primarily through our podcast, our website, and also through referrals. That's the biggest thing, is my respect. And some financial advisors and CFPs who work with clients and will recommend this, because they know the importance of it, but that's not their specialty in helping them. So it's really people who want to do some work. It's not work like full-time career work, but it's reflective work. They're open minded. They're willing to work within a constructive process and they're willing to experiment and explore. But they're looking to find that, what's that right combination of things for me to do? How am I going to really use that time?

Russ Thornton:
And I don't want to gloss over the fact that you mentioned your podcast, which I'm a big fan of and you were kind enough to invite me to join you on an episode here not too long ago. So we'll be sure to include links to the podcast and the website and everything in the show notes for this episode.

Joe Casey:
It was to have you on. And that's why I was hesitating, because I didn't want to be the guy who comes on and promotes his podcast, that wasn't my goal. But that's truly, that's where people come in often. And some people really get what they need from the different guests like yourself who come on and I've had some people say, "Look, it's like a free retirement school on the non-financial side." So it's trying to be resource people, but it's really people who want to say, "Look, I'm going to spend some time every other week for three to six months investing in my own future." That's really the ideal plan.

Joe Casey:
Professionally, they come for from different places. I have a fair split between, I'd say it's probably 60% men, 40% women. I have people who come out of entrepreneurship, they're selling a business. I have people come out of the corporate world. That's my background. I have people who are professionals, doctors and lawyers. And there are some specific challenges I've noticed with them in particular about the experimentation, because they're so good at what they do and they're often so specialized, that one of the challenges they face is trying something new and not being good at something, because they haven't had that experience, some might say ever, or quite some time and they're just used to not being good at something. When you try something new, you're not going to be good for a while. So that's a particular challenge for them that we work on to get them to open some new doors and things, both professionally and in terms of leisure. Golf's not it for everyone. And so they started to get involved in some new things, try some things different, but they really need some help in letting go of that mindset that's been there for so long.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. That's interesting about the doctors. I hadn't made that connection, but I can see how that might be a humbling experience for some of them that have spent so much time going through school and practicing their craft.

Joe Casey:
Yes. And I had to learn that because for me as a former HR person, as you know, in HR and we've unknowingly worked at the same company. As HR people, we're good at one thing and that's saying no. It is easier for me to try new things and not be good at them, but it was a real challenge for them, but it does open some new pathways once they get use to it.

Joe Casey:
The other thing that I see with clients generally and again, we've had people come from all professions, is this issue of whenever you make a change like this, there's gains like freedom and there's losses like structure and status and the things we get from work beyond the paycheck. And so it helps to get people to name those, label those and think about, well, which of those are important to you that you want to replace in a different way now.

Joe Casey:
And those who wanted work in some way, usually part-time consulting or volunteer type activities, we spend a lot of time thinking about what are your core skills and how can you repurpose them? Some want to do some things non-profit, some want to do things in terms of small business, et cetera. And there's a lot of value to them in thinking, "Oh yeah, right. This particular ability can be leveraged here, there, and elsewhere." Because sometimes the organization they work for didn't really have any use for their talent any longer because things change or they decided it's time to move on. But it doesn't mean that as human capital, our expiration dates there, there's still a lot more we can do you?

Russ Thornton:
I'm curious either thinking about maybe someone you're working with now or someone that you've worked with in the past, say three, six, twelve months, is there a favorite client story that comes to mind where you've been able to help someone have one of those light bulb moments or just really, for a better description, get out of their own way and really see a clear path forward as far as retirement planning goes?

Joe Casey:
Sure. So I'll bring up one in particular. There's a number of them, but I'll bring up a woman I work with who was heading down a particular path. She had a senior executive position at a company and was retiring at 62. She had worked every day of her life since she was 15. She had done well financially so that wasn't the issue. But she said, "I really am uncomfortable with not having a paycheck, even though that's not my day to day concern." Before she came to me, she had committed to go to a prestigious university on a particular program, a year long program across the country, and as we went through that prototype of process, one of the things that she ended up doing was interviewing five people who had been through the program and what she discovered was it wasn't really what she thought it was for her in terms of what the outcome would be.

Joe Casey:
So she decided to do a completely different path and she created a portfolio of activities, which I mentioned most of my clients do. They end up having a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Some things take on more of a focus as you go over it at the time. They get more seriously focused on, but they start off with three or four things that they're engaged in. And some like that for quite some time. In her case, she was able to put together a combination of some work consulting opportunities to create a new business, some leisure activities, some things she was doing for good to help others and some things she was doing for interests in terms of going back to school. She had been interested in art so she took classes in that area and it was a combination of things that was in direct contrast to what she was going to do, which was a year long, full immersion on something that turned out wasn't going to be there.

Joe Casey:
So I think the principles of that, that have an idea, but then test it experiment, find out more, and be looking at the idea. You don't have to have the answer day one, year one. You can run some experiments, try some things and one might emerge. I often talk about that because there's a lot in the press and even on our website about purpose, what's my new purpose? And what I've discovered with that is that overwhelms people, it sounds pretty challenging. What's my new purpose? I've looked online and you can't get it at Amazon, it's one of the few things. But you can find lots of books on it, which I've done.

Joe Casey:
I've found that most of my clients end up really living a multipurpose retirement. And then over time, sometimes one will take hold and get more of their attention. But we're usually more than one thing, we usually have more than one interest. So, I think the idea of a multi-purpose retirement is one that I'd recommend people consider.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. I love that idea. And again, we come back to this idea of experimenting and testing and prototyping and just the value in that. I think if our listeners take anything else away from our conversation, they'll hopefully really take that one to heart because I think that's a great idea and certainly applicable in retirement planning, whether on the financial or maybe the less financial, on the right brain side of things.

Joe Casey:
Yes, absolutely. You don't have to have the full answer. You got to stay flexible and things emerge. We learn most as adults through what we do and through experience. So people tell me that when once they get engaged in something and the other principle I've learned is start small. Don't, as you had said, don't necessarily jump in too early where you don't really fully know. Start small, get engaged. But people tell me once you're out there and you get engaged in some things, they find it very energizing. Not everything works out to be exactly what they thought, but usually some things do and they start to build new connections, new interests and new things.

Joe Casey:
I mentioned lawyers, I worked with some lawyers and one in particular came to mind. He was at the time 65 and he was retiring in six months. And I was referred to him by his wife who called me and said, "My husband doesn't know it yet, but he needs you." And she said he was not going to love this idea of working with a coach. And she was right. He was not.

Joe Casey:
But we had a very good working relationship because he was also one who confessed, "Look, I'm really afraid of this. I'll put all my energies into work. And I really think I'm going to be bored because I don't have any outside interest, zero." And I thought, how could that be, there's so much to be interested in? But he was right. He didn't. So what I did with him, I learned, and it helped me grow as a coach because I was thinking future. I was thinking focus. I had to take him back first. So we literally went back through every decade of his life. What were you interested in then? And different things started to emerge, said, "Well, actually, you weren't always a lawyer, right? What'd you do before that?" And different things started to pop up and he actually ended up doing some of them again.

Joe Casey:
One of the first things he did because he was a very smart man, is he brought back date night, something he used to do and had gone away from it, brought that back and that that worked. But he also discovered one of the things he really had enjoyed was reading to his child, his son when he is little, he was now grown. And he got involved in a program, a literacy program reading to under-privileged inner city youth, which was something that he really liked. But he got involved in a lot of his reading interests, exercise things that he had been involved in earlier. Sometimes going back is helpful to go forward.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. Interesting. I think there's so much interesting soil to till here around, you've talked about purpose, but the word that comes to mind for me is identity. So many people, especially men, I think, but so of you'll have so much identity tied up in their work that as you mentioned some of the admitted fear around giving that up and what am I going to be worth or who am I going to be? And I think that probably compounds the challenges around finding what is your purpose or what are your purposes once you're no longer working full-time. Super, super interesting.

Joe Casey:
Great time on identity in terms of who am I going to be now? And some of the things that we see ourselves, lenses that we see ourselves through, you discover sometimes no one really cared anyway. And people don't care about who you used to be. People care about who you're now, what are you doing? And I found that people who talk in the present tense about what they're doing really have an easier time than those who talk about, "Well, I used to do this or I used to be that or used to work here." It's a transition you got to go through. But once you start talking about the present tense of what you're engaged in, you're a more interesting person. And it's, I think, a better place to be.

Russ Thornton:
Well also, an idea that comes to mind is self-authoring, and having agency and being more deliberate because at the end of the day, it's up to you, it's up to me how we choose to live our lives. And I think maybe stepping out of the full-time work whether it has some degree of structure, I think a lot of people feel unmoored or rudderless and aren't really sure how to navigate that. So I can absolutely see the value that you bring to that transition process.

Joe Casey:
And that self-authoring term you used is a great one, because if you think about it comes down to that, what's the story from here? You've decided to retire or you have to retire, either scenario. So now what? What's that story going to be from your going forward and to have that mindset is very, very powerful and very, very helpful. As you know, in writing, there are first drafts and there are revised drafts, so same concepts apply. But start writing the next chapter of that new story.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah, absolutely. So, this is Women's Retirement Radio, and we like to bring everything we do back to the idea of women in retirement specifically. So I'm curious, Joe, from your perspective, what do you see as the biggest challenge or challenges facing women specifically as they're preparing for and transitioning into retirement?

Joe Casey:
I think there's one that really is important on both sides of the retirement planning equation and that's longevity. They're looking at a statistically longer lifespan. So making sure that they've got the financial resources, so they won't [inaudible 00:31:09] the money is key. And also that they've got health practices, fitness practices, engagement intellectually and socially in things that are going to help them over the longer haul. Not that we men won't live longer than perhaps we have anticipated or previous generations, we will. But I think with women that seems to be underscored and more top of mind. So really making sure that they're focusing on that.

Joe Casey:
The second thing that I see is shifting gears for many. And again, this is where I hesitate. I don't want to over generalize, but I do you see it in my clients when shifting the mindset from, "I had to sacrifice and put the needs of others first and take care of people," from a family standpoint to now shifting to it's my time and really looking at what do I want to do with these next years? And what are the things most important to me. Not abandoning any of those other things, which taking shape, but I think for many women, it's really the mindset shift of, "Okay, really taking full ownership," and you use the term agency around, I can make this, whatever I want. What is it really that I want to do and exploring new ideas there.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. Both great and important points. So thanks for sharing that. As we start to wrap up, Joe, I always ask my guests, I'm imagining you're a busy guy with your work and your family and things like that. But if you've got an hour or two to yourself, how do you most enjoy spending your free time?

Joe Casey:
It's a combination of things for me and I sometimes see them simultaneously, so I'll answer it that way. I'm a former runner. I got injured in 2016. My goal in life growing up in Boston was to qualify for the Boston Marathon. I did in 2014, but I got injured and I got injured in the marathon with a half mile to go.

Russ Thornton:
Oh no.

Joe Casey:
After 13, 12 races to qualify, finally got there. Having said that though, I've been able to keep running because I have a running machine called the Zero Runner and I will combine that with reading, which I like to do or watching sports, which I like to do. I'll combine that, I'll do that tonight. I'll run for an hour, watch something and read something, not all three at the same time, but I'll switch on and off. So if you forced me to wander, it'd be something exercise driven while I'm doing something else.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. That's great. I think you had told me, or I'd seen on your website that you've run, I guess, several, many marathons prior to getting injured.

Joe Casey:
Well, yeah, that was my goal, but it took me 12 times to do it. What's interesting was the fastest marathons I had were my first one when I was in my forties and my penultimate one when I was in my mid-fifties. But I actually got to a point where I got it down as far as I could to qualify. I thought I had the right combo of endurance and speed and I hired a coach, a running coach. I said, "I'm a coach. I know the value of it." And that was the missing link. He made one tweak to one of my training plans and that made the difference. And I beat the qualifying time by five minutes that year. But it was really because of the coach, because he looked at what I was doing. "You're doing all the right things. But what about this?" It was a hard change, but it was the key. And that's why I think working with the right advisor, whether it be what I do or what you do, honestly, it can really make the difference in many ways. And that's what it did for me. Some might say, "Well, if you didn't, maybe you wouldn't have been injured," but that wasn't him, that was me.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. I'm glad you shared that story. That's fascinating. We've covered a ton today. The thing I think I'll most take away from our conversation is the idea of prototyping and testing and experimenting. But if there were, from your perspective and your experience, Joe, if there's one thing our listeners can take away from our call today, what would you want that one thing to be?

Joe Casey:
Really your point on self-authoring, look at where you are now and think about what's your story from here? Just because you're retiring, it doesn't mean it's the end. Matter of fact, it's not, it's the beginning of what's next. So really take that approach and think about what could that story be? Just like a writer, writers look at alternative plots, alternative themes, alternative characters. What is it that you really want to do and embrace that self-authorship point. That's what I'm taking away because that was a great point that you made.

Russ Thornton:
Well thank you for that. What's the best way for people to reach out or to learn more about you? If they want to learn more about your coaching services around retirement or check out your podcast or anything like that, what's the best way for people to find you?

Joe Casey:
Sure. The one stop is retirementwisdom.com, our website. We've got a bunch of things on there, but the podcast is the main focus, but we've got blog posts. We have a talented writer who works with us freelance, Michelle, who does great job. So she writes a lot on retirement topics and we have a quiz on the non-financial side there as well. We also, from time to time, a lot behind this, we also review books on retirement so people can get a quick look at just some short summaries of books that we like on the non-financial side of retirement primarily and retirementwisdom.com is the best way. But thanks for asking.

Russ Thornton:
Well, as I mentioned, we'll be sure to include a link to the website and the podcast and the blog and things like that in the show notes for this episode so people can track you down and learn more.

Russ Thornton:
Joe, thank you. This has been fun. I always enjoy speaking with you. This has been absolutely no exception. So thanks for joining us today.

Joe Casey:
Thanks, Russ. Great to be here. Appreciate it. Same here.

Russ Thornton:
Yeah. And for everyone out there listening, thank you. Again, this has been another episode of Women's Retirement Radio and we look forward to catching up with you next time.