Christian Meier on Salomon's Next Gen Program: Building the Pipeline That Could Change Elite Trail Running (Sunday Conversation)

Christian Meier returns to the Singletrack Podcast to discuss one of the most ambitious talent development initiatives the sport has ever seen: Salomon's Next Gen program, which he leads as Head of Performance Programs.

The first section covers how this role came about, what it looks like day to day, and why trail running's elite development infrastructure has lagged so far behind other endurance sports for so long. Christian takes us inside the Annecy selection camp, the evaluation process that combined lab testing, field assessments, and individual interviews, and the hard decisions involved in selecting nine athletes from seventeen candidates.

The conversation then moves into the architecture of the program itself. What full-season integration with Salomon's performance structure means for a 20-year-old athlete on a Tuesday in March, what the financial picture looks like for the athletes, and how much autonomy they have over their own competitive calendars. We also compare Next Gen to Andy Wacker's Trail Team and what the spectrum of approaches to elite development tells us about what these athletes need.

From there, Christian draws on his cycling background to examine what the marginal gains framework imports into trail running and where it breaks down. We discuss injury philosophy, the risk of burnout in high-performance development environments, what mental progress looks like and how you measure it, and how Christian thinks about building identity resilience into athletes who are still figuring out who they are.

The final section pulls back to the questions that matter beyond this program. Whether deeper talent pipelines produce competitive parity at the top or just raise the floor, whether trail running ever develops the kind of specialized team roles that define professional cycling, and whether Christian is trying to build something Salomon owns or something the whole sport adopts.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back or welcome to the Single Track Podcast. I'm your host, Finn Milliansen, and in this edition of our Sunday Conversation, Christian Meyer is back. If you listen to our first conversation with him, which aired roughly two years ago, we covered his transition from professional cycling to professional trail running, which was highlighted at the time by his win at TDS. This time around, we talk about his new position at Solomon leading their next gen program. This is a development initiative designed to take promising young trailrunners aged 18 to 25 and give them the tools, support, structure that they need to compete at an international level. Nine athletes were selected after a recent rigorous evaluation camp in Annecy, and they are now embedded inside Solomon's full performance apparatus for this season. We cover how the program works, how athletes were chosen, what development looks like in practice, and the bigger questions about where elite trail running is headed. After listening, do me a favor, head over to the YouTube version of this episode and leave a comment about your impressions of the program, your thoughts on his opinions about where the sport is headed, as well as any follow-up questions or topics you'd like to see covered in future episodes. With that, let's get into it. Norda is the official footwear partner of the Single Track Podcast, and I want to talk to you today about their 002 model engineered for precision through technical terrain due to that pyramidal midsole geometry that promotes confident footing in technical environments. It's also the shoe choice of the great Rachel Entricken. Go check it out, NordaRun.com. This episode is also brought to you by Precision, the official nutrition partner of the show. At the time of this recording, I am racing locally this weekend in Tuela, Utah at the Serengeti 25K. If all goes well, should be about a two-hour effort for me. Nutrition-wise, I am rolling with Precision's Carb and Electrolyte Drink Mix. I find this stuff is fantastic for higher intensity efforts where rapidly digestible energy and sweat loss replacement is the name of the game. I'll also take down a few of their PF30 calf gels, aiming for about 60 grams of carbs per hour and a thousand milligrams of sodium, which are my hourly intake goals for summer hundred mile efforts later this year. If you want to go check out Precision Stuff, first off, they have quite a comprehensive knowledge hub on Sports Nutrition. And then you can check out their planner as well at precisionhydration.com forward slash planner. That link is in the show notes as well. Christian Meyer, great to have you back on the Single Track Podcast. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Great. Great to be back. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Let's get right into it. You know, trail runnings, I'll call it the elite development structure in this sport. It's been pretty primitive compared to other endurance sports. You know, we've had some good efforts, the Tarix program at Western Colorado University. I think Solomon had a young guns program in the past, Andy Wacker's trail team. We've talked about Trailhouse a bunch on this podcast, but I would say nothing looks quite like what you're building with this next gen program. What's the what's the why now for for you and Solomon on uh trotting this thing out?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

I think there's a a couple of things that are are happening. I think, like you sort of said mentioned previously Solomon had um, as we know it, they used to have these sort of selection camps. You know, so you're talking about this is where Mathieu Blanchard came from, Courtney DeWalter. Like these types of athletes were discovered in these, they used to call them sort of young gung camps. You could come and they did like a series of just tests, running, you know, all that sort of stuff. Um, and then they would select some key athletes and they would move on. And historically, we have also inside Solomon had within the national program, so each country had a variety of athletes, depending a little bit on country. Each country could choose what they sort of wanted to do with their sports marketing budget in terms of athlete selection and what in some cases it may have been uh more of an ambassador type of athlete, it more have been like a competitive uh athlete. In some countries, they had a slightly more development-focused program. Spain being uh a really good example there. Spain has a next gen program. Um and so we were started when when to back it up a little bit. Um when we started building this more professional international program, what we decided to do, or we when I say we essayed, uh solvent, the idea was that we tried to consolidate a little bit of the national programs because it's quite big. You know, you've got a lot of athletes spread over a lot of countries with uh varying degrees of support and all that. So the idea was uh to cut back some of that, funnel that into building a really strong performance program at the international level to what we have now. And then in that part of scaling back, one thing that we wanted to keep was the ability for countries to identify young talents and have those have a pathway to the international team. Right. So this then led to the idea of the international next-gen team. Um and this year, what we did is we opened up uh a selection pool through the country managers um so each country could um put up their top athletes, um, young athletes. And then from there we narrowed down the first group uh to 17. We took them to Annecy, ran uh a three-day testing camp. So we had um lab testing, outdoor testing, um and then we had interviews, a series of things, and then we narrowed that down to the final nine athletes. And those athletes now, um, you know, when you think about the the global structure, I mean, so you have international team, and the next gen sits next to that. You know, we're not a B team by sense, we're uh an A team like the international team, but with a slightly different objective, which is providing a pathway for young athletes to mature into the international program.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

This might be a very obvious question, but I think it's worth putting on the table. Uh, given what you know about other endurance sports and how much more mature they are than the trail running world, how how good is how good are these talent development pipelines in scouting in general at seeding our sport with more elite athletes, like more Killian Journays, Jim Walmsleys, Katie Scheides? Like, is it actually a proven formula for getting more talent in the sport?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

I think right now, where we are in our sport, I mean, I think if you look at more developed sports, right now I see trail running is there is still way more talent than there is um contracts or spots or that have been identified. You know, if you look at a very mature sport, um and sometimes, I mean, we can use cycling as an example, they might start to look at other sports to find a talent that might adapt to cycling, right? Like that's kind of where they start to look. Like once you feel like, okay, we're looking for yeah, exactly. Remco, you know, Rogalik was a ski jumper, even even Jonas. I mean, these people come from different sporting backgrounds and they were sort of discovered um to be these super talents and come through. I think right now in in in running, there's no lack of talent. I mean, it's pretty easy to go and go to a race and identify um, you know, a new young talent in in these races, like, you know, you look at Black Canyons or things like that. You you have these athletes who kind of show up every year, you're like, holy cow, this person sort of came out of nowhere, and they're like all of a sudden on the podium. And so I think those are just naturally kind of happening. And then I think these programs are kind of like how can we take that person, uh, that talent, and help refine it or guide it further on, you know. So I think a really prime example to me is is um, you know, Kate Michaels. I met him a couple of years ago here in Girona. Uh and he had just started trail running when he was here. His girlfriend was a cyclist, so they were here because she was cycling. And he had sort of done the caliche thing, left it for a few years, was coming back to running, finding his love, got into trail running. Like exceptional talent, like so fast, so strong. But he came in the first, I remember having you know chats with him and we were doing runs together, and like, you know, he didn't quite even know yet the difference between mountain running, trail running, sky running. You know, so he was doing all these kind of mountain running races and he's like, oh, these are kind of like boring, but he thought mountain running was the technical version of trail running. So, you know, you take a guy like that, and it's the talent is there, he's got results, but you just like guide them into where they want to go. And I mean, especially if you look, it's more prominent in the US, but athletes coming through a collegiate system, you know, guiding them eventually into trail running about what that can broadly mean. I mean, it can mean skyrunning, it can mean mountain running, it can mean trail running, it can mean short distance ultra. So I think, you know, that it's not a lack of talent. It's more like these programs probably can get that talent, direct it more naturally in the way um that they would fit rather than the athlete taking two or three years to figure it out on their own and then finally end up there, right? So maybe it's more more guidance early days versus like going out and having to scout or look for talent because there's plenty of talent.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

It's if I'm understanding this correctly, it's interesting. Again, stateside, it feels like the big question is how better can trail running uh exploit the NCAA system and just like develop a pipeline from D1, D2, D3 colleges to trail. And it sounds like you're saying let's even think broader than that. Let's think about like let's already talk about uh identifying talent in cycling, skebo, other good sports.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

No, no, I don't think we're there yet. Um just saying like redeveloped sports, that's what they're doing. But I don't think we are there yet. I mean, we've got so much talent that we've got so much to choose from still that um sure those I think those athletes now will will maybe come here and there. And and like, you know, for a brand like Solomon, it could make a lot of sense because we're really tapped into schemo and other things. So there's, you know, you can kind of pull through sort of a little bit multi-sport or different athletes. But yeah, I mean, I think for now we still have a a surplus of talent. Um, and every every time there there's more, which is wild.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

So I'll I'll put the press release in the show notes just to give folks a sense of you know what was being tested at the selection camp. Uh, but give us a sense of the ambiance there in Annecy when you have these 17 athletes there, like what a day looked like. Was it fierce? Was it laid back? Was it competitive? Like just give us a sense of what it was like to be on the ground there evaluating.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Um it was I mean, it was very cool. I mean, these athletes um are very talented. Um exceptionally so. Like we just saw, I mean, probably most of our young guys had a VO2 max over 90 or 90. So, I mean, these are super talented athletes. And, you know, what's amazing is I mean, they were very hectic days because we haven't cram like lab testing everything into like three days. Um, so they're very hectic, but the energy was amazing because they're super excited. I mean, obviously, this is a program that hasn't existed, right? So bar from making the international team, this is like the next step for them. Um and I would say generally, it wasn't a competitive atmosphere. Um, everyone was just excited, super supportive, super humble. And also the way that this program is working, it's it's sort of like some of these athletes that came and tested and didn't make the team. I mean, our objective is that they come back in the future and try again. You know, this is not a one-shot, not a one-shot pony. You know, it's like, okay, you didn't make it this year. We've got younger athletes. Um, like we have some athletes who were close to the same level, but you know, they're a year or two younger, so they might only be 20 years old. So, you know, you can still give them a year and say, hey, look, come back next year or even the year after. Like um the intention is is to get as many athletes and as strong athletes as we can to support them. So um, and I think that kind of atmosphere is, you know, because it wasn't feeling like this is my one shot or I'm never gonna make it. It was more an idea of like, look, we're here to gather information. Um, everybody's a strong athlete. If you don't make it this year, you know, it's not the end of the road. You know, it's not like you have to give up your dreams of being a runner. You know, we we come back, we try again. Um, some athletes will move on, hopefully to the international program. So it's it's a little bit more fluid than a really rigid feeling thing, is kind of what we're trying to create, you know, um, because you want to create an atmosphere that's supportive and engaging. And and you know, we have some athletes, for example, that um didn't quite make it. Well, they didn't make the team, but when there's an opportunity, we're still inviting, we're having a training camp here in Girona uh starting on Sunday. And um one athlete, we're inviting her to come for a day or two to train with us. Um, and she's very close to that. You know, she just needs another year of just running to get a little bit, she's already exceptionally talented. She just needs a little bit more time for development, which she can do just on her own in the next gym program in Spain. We do a few things with her, then hopefully next year. So it's kind of like, you know, we keep in touch, we keep things moving, um, and just try to support everyone and and just yeah. It's like I said, it's not sort of a rigid framework of you're in, you're out. If you're out, we don't talk to you, you know, never see you again. So it's sort of like, you know, we need to encourage all these athletes to to progress and keep growing and to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So, and this is more for the audience, uh, selection process, you're doing the VO2 max test, timed uphill, downhill, individual interviews. As I was reading that in the press release, one of the questions I was thinking to myself, I want to sort of get your philosophy on what drives elite development. And in your opinion, is it more like what the body can do, or is it what those interviews reveal about the person's, you know, mental state, stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, I think for there's a couple of things there. I mean, in our interviews too, you after I stand we're with young people. So most of them are still in school. Um so you know, one thing we take into consideration, for example, is um, look, you have a super intensive workload in in school right now. You know, the best thing for you probably to do this year is to keep running, do your thing, focus on your school. Um and then when you're ready and you have more time to be really into your running, let's try again. Um, versus there's another side of it that is uh we have one young guy in our team and amazing athlete. But one of the main reasons I brought him onto the team is like he's that team builder character, you know. He's the guy who was like, everybody's on the treadmill, like doing their VO2 max tests, and he was there like just the whole time, just encouraging everybody, like just to go to the end and like you know, and he was such a supportive person, just naturally, like you know, kind of the glue in the group that kind of gets everyone feeling good. And you know, because we're also trying to build a team, right? We're not trying to build a group of individuals. So we're really trying to build this team atmosphere. So you need, you know, you need a person like that. Um then, you know, when by the time the athletes had gotten to Annecy, you know, those athletes already were impressively focused and certain on what they wanted and what they want from the sport. And and, you know, they have ideas, they are already performance-oriented. I mean, this is a it was really interesting because you know, we had athletes in that young program that I felt in some cases had it more figured out than some international athletes, you know. And just because I think, you know, again, this comes to another topic is I mean, I think when you look at these young athletes now, so this generation, most of the guys and girls on the team are between 20 and 22. The average is around 21, majority is 21. This is a group of athletes that probably is one of the first generations that say, okay, I can be a professional trail runner. Like that's an option, you know, not uh I'm going to run, work on the side, combine the both so I can make a living. Like they have the possibility in in two, three, four, five years to just be a trail runner. And I think that's very new in the sport. I mean, obviously we've seen that only happen in the last uh I mean, just the difference probably in the last five years in contracts has been very significant. So I think they're already coming in, and then there's another aspect of you know, the media side. Um many of them follow other sports, they follow cycling, they follow so you know, they're already seeing performance actions happening across other sports, and you know, you know, now in nutrition, everybody's talking about 120 grams an hour. It's like the new catchphrase. So young people are absorbing a lot of this information. So they're already showing up like, yeah, I mean, you don't need to tell me to eat gels when I train, because you know, it's there. It's it's what they're growing up with versus, you know, an athlete who started 10 years ago, you know, they're ending up now in a sport that's a totally different, like the evolution is in the last few years has been uh quite extraordinary. So they're kind of catching up with a lot of those things. And a lot of these young people are starting with those things. So that's where you get in certain aspects. It feels like they kind of have certain things figured out already, um, which is really exciting to see.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Um Yeah, you know, uh I'm I'm impressed that temperamentally there's already people in this sport in their early 20s that act like veterans. And I'm wondering, is it because they've come from systems since they were, you know, 12, 13, 14 in the endurance world that make it so that they already kind of have eight to ten years of experience on the table for this?

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think there's a mix there. I think it's one one is just um access to information. You know, like, you know, be it social media or whatever. Second is I mean in Europe, yes, some of these athletes have have come, have been doing sports for a long time. Um, come from other sports, you know, have probably been mixing um various endurance sports. But you know, but we have some that um I mean they maybe started running a few years ago. So it's not like they have a huge, a huge history. But but I mean now we're talking like I mean we're talking about you know the tip of the pyramid. Um you know, these are the you know, nine athletes we've selected from you know, uh the first list was probably 40 athletes from across Europe, you know. Um so and many of them are you know, we've got Louis Pougevert last year won the VK and um and trail race at the youth skyrunning worlds. Um he won the VK outright, even though he was an under-20, not under 23. Wow. Um and then you know, his teammate Max from Austria was like second and third in both those races. So you're talking like these guys are already very accomplished. You know, they're doing um, you know, Skyrunning World Series, Luis uh a few weeks ago was seventh. Um, you know, and he's five minutes down or six minutes down on Manu Maria's, you know, and these are like you know, these guys are twenty one. So they're they're beasts, you know, already. Uh so I mean they've got some stuff figured out. Uh last weekend, uh Axel, who's um one of our young Swiss athlete. She's only 20. She won the the up and down mountain running up and down championship Switzerland overall, outright. So I mean these uh these kids are the are the real deal. They've got some engines.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

It makes me wonder exactly how much time do they need to quote unquote develop before they're already ready to make an impact professionally.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Yeah I mean it's amazing some have a gift I mean some you know like I say maybe have been dabbling in other sports over time and then have have converted. But you know I think the way that we see it though is sort of you know a lot of them in in in Europe, obviously we don't have a collegiate system, right? That doesn't exist. And trail running athletes for the most part I would say not always but for the most part are probably coming directly into trail or mountain running you know less sort of from like a very deep for example athletics background or things like that. Like we're more access to mountains, trails and there's more of a culture directly around trail running. But what we see is a lot of the athletes let's say the young athletes here go through a couple of main programs. So what's really big is sort of um mountain running championships when they're young because that's where you probably get introduced if you were starting um like locally an athletics club and then you went off road, you would go to mountain running which then leads to sort of that you get support from the federation from your country. So um like a big portion of the athletes on the team you know their goal is to go to the European sky running championship or sorry mountain running championships. So that's already like one pathway that's more through the national federations. And then another one similarly is skyrunning and the skyrunning a lot of times at the youth level is also through the federations. So early on it's really a lot of times the the countries that support the young athletes and bring them up through these sort of um sort of national races. So you you run for Austria, Switzerland or whoever and you go and you compete at these championships um similar to Can Frank and these sorts of things but you know at that level like a youth skyrunning world championship happens every year not every two or something like we might be used to with you know the current uh world championships but so we kind of come more through that um they're already quite good technically I mean they grew up kind of skyrunning and things like that. So yeah it's it's it's kind of our own system over here that's a little bit different than the than for example the collegiate system in the U.S.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

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SPEAKER_01 28:06

I mean you can you can still go down the pathway of chasing a specific goal or doing a certain thing but having another life on the side. I mean that's one of the beauties also about running it's not ultra sort of encompassing and consuming like a lot of other endurance sports like triathlon or cycling where you just need so much time. I mean you can manage quite a lot um running and doing something on the side and I just felt for him it was probably a better direction to do kind of that for now and again he was young so in the future if it changes he can come back and and and try again. And then you know like for example this young guy that I picked who was kind of a team builder I mean he big engine technically he's not the best runner in terms of like in technical terrain or things like that. Like we definitely need to improve that scenario. On the up he was pretty fast on the down he was struggling a bit compared to the others but you sort of say well look you know what he can bring as a team builder would be amazing and we can teach him to run downhill. So you know you definitely have there's definitely a balance you know it wasn't purely the data that that drove the the selection process by by no means definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

What are some sample interview questions on the subjective side of the assessment?

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Holy cow I'd have to go back now. Broadly like rough roughly speaking so generally we talk about like how you rate your daily level of stress in your life you know and and where that comes from well 98% of it's school um how much that affects like your daily wellbeing um thinking like how much can you add on top of that right um probably not that much so we need to take into consideration of like again is should this focus on their school for a year and then come back um then we talked about a little bit about sort of their also their their structure right because you know right now do you have support? Do you have a coach? Do you have do you do strength training? Do you all these sorts of things because those also sort of think like sometimes you know when you think of an athlete who's already achieving this but they're missing all of this they don't have a coach they don't do strength they don't do anything you're like okay well there's someone that you know we can slowly introduce these other things and that should take them significantly a step ahead right so you kind of like how polished is the diamond here and like how much more can we polish it and what can we and sometimes you know it can also lead to the thing of like wow this person is already extremely dialed we we don't have a lot of room for margin here. Like what else can we do? How can we improve and you take that into consideration of like of course with young athletes we still just have years of of aerobic building for example one thing that became quite apparent in these tests which is interesting is that all of them pretty much all of them still need a significant amount of aerobic development right massive engines you know peak speeds peak power all that sort of stuff is is amazing but aerobically compared to an athlete who's done five, six seven ten years of sport, they're not as efficient. Right? So we generally saw like okay everybody needs to take time everyone still needs some years.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

It's not that we need to put on a massive training load but you just see that okay we still need in you know in two years three years of just consistency there's still the opportunity to make a significant step right um so yeah I mean we want uh to me it was the best thing you can find is uh is a very unpolished diamond you know those are the ones that you can like um once you can get everything together um then they might be the the ones so I mean to preface this and again just hearing hearing you say that you know a lot of these athletes despite their talent they still need a ton of aerobic development super interesting that makes me think you're working with a lot of these athletes they're still building you know let's call it the the structural resilience that takes it could take a whole career to develop the bone density tendon strength connective tissue all that stuff it's it's funny like at not funny it's it's regrettable like at the sport is seeing a wave of pretty high profile injuries right now like among the established athletes you could argue some are you know overtrained what is your explicit philosophy inside next gen and how do you distinguish between productive load and dangerous load for athletes at this stage in their career?

SPEAKER_01 33:10

That's a really interesting question because I mean this is something that you know our intention is to kind of also internally gather as much information as possible. And coming up will be our first training camp where I'll be able to spend time with all of them for a week see what athletes are doing, absorbing a little bit what they're doing, getting to know more around their training we have a a coach internally for the next gen program. So any athlete who doesn't have a doesn't have a coach can be coached uh internally but you know I think one of the big things is um what we need to instill in the athletes on an early age is cross training um especially you know cycling uh in Europe schemo um we have some athletes that do quite a lot of it already but we have some athletes that do almost none um and those are the athletes that you think okay you know if you want to make a significant improvement especially around your aerobic develop development you know we need to start incorporate incorporating another sport um with lower impact because we have right now which is interesting uh we have about we have two athletes so this is of the nine we have two athletes that are coming back from injury um and we have two athletes injured right of the nine which is pretty high number and you know most of these are lobe related you know um bone edema stress fractures things like that and you know they're already quite young to be having these types of of injuries so you know a big a big portion of our program early on um like I say we're still very young is teaching them how to manage load um what it feels like to have a structured progression and increasing load how to prevent injury I mean some are doing gym work some are not doing strength work um how to use other forms of sport to increase your aerobic development without having to increase uh structural load so I mean it's really about load management and that comes down to all athletes young and old um I mean unfortunately some of the older athletes I mean you have to deal with a significant amount of load that you've put on in the last um you know 10 years already but yeah I mean education is going to be a big topic for us in how we can do that. And also I mean we've got some exceptional people that we can rely on from you know the performance program in our international team physio strength and additioning doctors. So we're starting to uh at this camp for example all the next gen athletes are doing like the international team are doing blood tests like full panels so we can just see see what's happening, if there's deficiencies, if things like try to just be more proactive um early on to get try to get ahead of things and and see markers and get baselines so we can start to you know make sure fueling is correct and and all these sorts of different things that eventually lead to a lot of the injuries I know it's probably going to look different depending on the discipline like sub Ultra versus you know ultra trail, but maybe we focus specifically on the ultra trail runners in the program.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Based on what your current philosophy and predictions are, do you have a sense for what the future's going to look like for these athletes in terms of how long an offseason is, how long the like how long their season is, how many times they race a year in order to avoid things like burnout, shortened careers, um stalling out in their progressions, like not really seeing a ton of supercompensation block over block, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

This is also very interesting because I think one of you know like we were saying earlier that you know as much as there's information out there that they're sort of fed through social media or whatever, you know, the other side of it is very negative. I mean uh I personally am not a big fan of social media um as it is now in its current state I think it's um can be very bad if used incorrectly which most people do. And so at the same time you're sort of constantly bombarded with you know these athletes racing this these athletes racing that you know and there's if you would go on your social media you could always see somebody racing like okay you don't take into context it's not the same athlete every time but you're always bombarded with stuff happening and you know then you start to think like well I want to race more FOMO whatever I feel like I have this for whatever reason is pressure of I need to quickly step up into ultra or like longer ultra or you know I want to do 50k this year and 100k the year after it's like well why why do you want to do that that doesn't I mean one is not everybody needs to race ultra. I mean I think that's one of the things that we've kind of gotten a little bit stuck in these days that it's like for everybody now the progression is just doing ultra like I do whatever I go to golden trail I do short I go to golden then I go to ultra but like you know why that that that's you don't have to do ultras you know you can do mid distance up to 50k for your whole career. I mean it doesn't matter um but for the ultra athletes I think it's particularly important that you know they also understand that you don't have to race very much we need to focus on proper development load management um and show up to your key objectives ready to race for me one of my favorite athletes bar none um is Ruth I mean Croft she picks a couple objectives a year that's it done she's someone that believes so much in general health proper offseason proper rest come back maybe go doing a hiking trip with your friends build back big objective crush it take time come back you know and I think right now we're not really there's not enough of that holistic approach in in ultra and I think one of the reasons is like right now the sport is in a frenzy right like it's it's the growth everything's happening you know it just feels like right now it's sort of um there's like this not tension in the air but you know it's like trails growing everybody wants a slice you know it's a sort of thing brands are coming in you know everyone's talking medias are blowing up and like so you feel this energy of like you know like I need to do more I need to be in it I need to um but for young people to get them to view their career as a long-term path like you still want to be racing in 10 years you know um is something we really need to focus on and you know and literally holding them back because some of them I mean they're uh we have a a young lady Agnes who last year won the Culleman 50K in Sweden outright like she's 20 years old and she won the women's 50k and finished top 10 overall in the race and so you have an athlete like that who's 20 and you're like like what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

I mean you you have to hold them back but at the same time they're they're strong they're fast they're ambitious and you know it it's our job to like try to meter that um and make sure that that's a career that is progressive and you know she can get 10 years out of the sport um and have a great career um professionally um and personally you know and not end up come out the other side you know just with a a broken body um well I I know you can't control social media or the fans or even peers to some extent but if I'm understanding this correctly from a coaching standpoint and from a brand standpoint institutionally you guys are going to de-incentivize overtraining and over racing which seems novel in this environment to me definitely but I mean you know if we're looking at particularly next gen I mean as a brand we're investing in this program right like we're putting money behind this program.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

The objective of this program is to move athletes to the international team. So what that means is like we've only done it correctly is if we get return on that investment. You know if we let that athlete race themselves into the ground in the next two years or and then year three they go on the national team and then two years later they're they're cooked, I mean that was a very poor investment in the program, right? Like we've not done our job properly then. And even you know on a more on a broader term if you look at just I was thinking about this earlier. I think if you look at the landscape of trail running and teams and team structures I think you have two things. You have generally brands that operate more in the traditional sports marketing model which is we pay you go and run. Like you know that's that's kind of the way that the program works. And then you have the other side Which might be we are building a structured team environment that has a performance program with support, coaching, chefs at races, these sorts of things, right? So you have two versions of that. You know, that sort of sports marketing based version. If an athlete's injured or whatever, they come out, you put another one in. Like it's kind of like a rotation of athletes, right? Like that's just you spend only on the contract. Um, they provide a service for that year. Maybe they do well, maybe they don't. If they don't, you end the contract, find a new person, again, because there's so much talent right now that finding a new fast runner is not necessarily a problem. And that kind of cycle keeps happening. And on the other side, if you look, for example, the way the Solomon is approaching it now, we have a performance program, right, with full structure support. Um, you know, we've got chefs at races, chefs at camp, physios, doctors, the whole shebang, right? So if you're putting all this money into that program, you need a return on that. And the return on that is like not having athletes injured, you know, having long careers, uh, having good results. So, you know, to do what Solomon is doing now and not think about an athlete being a healthy whole person because we need them to race and to show up and to not be injured and to give us X amount of year return on just the money we're putting into this program. Right. So if you look at it, even from just an economic standpoint, you know, they're two different scenarios, right? And if we're investing so much, the outcome needs to be that we get a return on that investment, which is a healthy athlete that can raise for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

This is an issue. I was gonna, and maybe you either can't share, you don't know necessarily, but I was gonna ask if you if you have a sense of the price tag for what it costs to train each of these athletes, and therefore is that price tag so steep that an eggs against the wall approach doesn't work? Because it would just be such a loss for you guys. Like if it costs like 300K a year, Euro to train an athlete, well, if they flame out, if if like 11 of the 12 flame out and one just hits it out of the park, that's still an ROI loss on the program. Not to make it too economic, but I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

That's a good question. Uh I wouldn't know that. Um I guess we we could probably calculate it. Um but right off I don't know the answer to that. But you know, the investment in the program is very significant. You know, it's like um if you think about, you know, we have full-time performance manager, head coach, um three chefs, and we have a full-time doctor on the team, with a full head-time ph head of physio. Um, you've got contracted four or five physios throughout the year, um, you've got team managers, you've got logistics staff. So it's you know, it's it's a significant investment, apart from then actually just going and doing the thing, which is like, you know, you run a training camp, you've got hotels, flights, budgets, you know, these sorts of things are are significant. And you know, Solomon's investing a lot of money in in that program, um especially considering the size that they are compared to, you know, uh a Nike, for example. I mean, the amount of money or that is invested in the infrastructure comparative to a brand who's much bigger than what they're investing. I'm sure they're relatively investing maybe more, but in consideration of the size of the company, um, you know, we're I imagine Solomon is one that was investing probably a higher percentage in in that program.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Uh with these, um now that I now I'm thinking about the the pressure and the incentives on the athletes here. Are they expected to, and again, I I don't want to be too crude, but are they expected to be like performance robots? Or are you also building in identity resilience where it's like, yeah, like performance matters, but we also want to make sure that you're a balanced human being in the long run?

SPEAKER_01 48:14

I think that's we're definitely taking the balanced human approach, because the reality is that um the balanced human generally still does better than the robot um long term. Okay. Definitely. And you know, so for example, uh in in the next gen program, because I think it it's very difficult because in trail right now, also what we're seeing is how do you prepare someone for being a professional athlete. In trail running, this is a very new thing. And I think one thing that we've noticed or I've noticed is that sometimes some athletes they end up in the position of being a professional. You know, they they have some results, you know, maybe they come from other sports, they come to the sport quite new, and and quickly they have momentum, energy, getting results. You know, they've got this sort of snowball effect going on momentum, they're winning more. Big contract comes, and then it's like this kind of aha moment of like, oof, well, now I need to win races. It wasn't just kind of like this fun thing I was doing that like led to this. Now you end up in this situation of like being a professional athlete, um, you know, it's something to really consider because at a certain point, you know, there is an expectation of a return on what they're paying you, right? I mean, we can all understand that like that economic is quite simple. If I'm gonna pay you a lot of money to run, usually it's because you know you're gonna try to get some results for me, right? Um so but because a lot of this it's it's quite a young sport and people end up there quite almost haphazardly, no one's kind of been prepared for that. And because, you know, we don't have a really long history of professional sport, and like at the lower level, you know, it's it's totally amateur. You know, in cycling, for example, at the lower level, the development teams are already quite professional, and even the amateur level is quite advanced when you think like how serious they take it. But you know, in trail, we've kind of it's very sort of the when you go from from amateur to professional, it's a very steep curve. You know, there's not a lot in between there. So, you know, a big thing is like, okay, in this next-gen program, how do we prepare that athlete to make that step? Not physically, but mentally. And how do we just get them to understand that, and this is not to say that, okay, when you become a professional, it's going to totally change. Now it's your job. But just so they understand that this feeling might come up when they turn professional. You know, like some of the romance might go a little bit, you know, because you might have to do some press stuff, you might have to do this for sponsors, or, you know, there might be an expectation uh for a result at a race or a certain amount. And it's not a bad thing, but I think it can be demanding if you're thrown in there without any prior experience and no support on how to manage that pressure, right? And I think that's where we're kind of lacking a little bit now, and that's one of the key things with this with the next gen program. Um, and also, you know, the whole for myself, the idea, the philosophy around next gen that we have internally is actually around um it's around a Japanese philosophy uh called gambate, which is this idea of giving your best. Right. Um and it's a it's a term really ingrained in Japanese culture because you know, many times if you know, when they say gambate, they never say good luck. They say gambate, which just means give your best effort, leave it all out there. Um they use it as a word for, you know, for example, when they have a natural disaster as a country, you know, they sort of go with gambate mentality of like we rebuild, we move forward, we do the best we can now, and like and and in many times that the effort is more valuable than the result, right? So what I would like to try to build in the program is this idea of we just do our best in any scenario we're in, right? You're having a bad day, that's fine. You just keep doing your best. And that for us, that the value for us internally in our team is we are just giving the best we can. Winning is great or having a result is great, but at the end of the day, if you finish a race and you know you've done your best, you will never regret it and you will never feel bad. Right? Like we've all had sometimes a race that we've we've won even, but a race that we did had not the same result, but we felt that somehow we emptied ourselves and gave everything and like had this real sense of fulfillment in our effort. Sometimes you remember those races more than the ones that felt like an easy day and you kind of like everything went and you won, you know. So, you know, I think we need to build those moments and that idea so that when they kind of move forward, they kind of don't get stuck in this idea of results. You know, we're process-driven, we control the controllables. Um, the things we can't control, we leave to the side and we just go out there and we execute our plan. You know, we prepare well. I mean, I think it's another thing is like we prepare well, we build a strategy, and we execute the strategy, right? And then beyond that, there's nothing we can do, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:34

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SPEAKER_01 56:40

Like honestly. I think there was definitely a mix because, for example, you had some standout athletes that you know, I think even at trail running a certain aspect, you can look at the very best of the best, and you could say we were all kind of a little, or they were all a little weird in a way. And just that something that they had that was a little weird allowed them to somehow extract a little bit more. But I would say no, I think we had like when I was racing, you know, you had like, for example, your Chris Froome, who was like a very methodical um kind of machine. Um was also in a system that was built like that. You know, Team Sky back then, that's the way that they operated. It was very robotic, it was very systematic, it was very um almost military-like in the way that they operated. And to be honest, that was not sustainable because that era um eventually riders fell apart, you know, because only certain people can handle that, right? Like it's a very tough um kind of program to be in mentally. And the the best of the best can handle that. Bradley Wiggins could handle it for a while. Uh Garrett Thomas could handle it. But Garrett was a very balanced guy. Garrett was not uh, no, he's not a kind of uh, you know, he's a lovely guy that, you know, in the offseason loves his, you know, some beers and a cake. And, you know, he's he he did the job very well, but he was a very he was a very balanced guy. I mean, you just have to listen to his podcast. I mean, he's a super funny guy. Um and but then no, I I would say it was balanced. I mean, there's some teams that were much more rigid, and there were teams that were more balanced. The team I was on, Orc at Green Edge, was super balanced. I mean, the Aussies love to have fun, um, have a laugh, but they were quite serious when it came to, you know, it's time to buckle down and win a bike race. But um it's no, I would I would say back then it would, there was there was a bit of a balance still.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Well, let me ask you this. And and this was like two years, the last time I had you on the podcast two years ago, and I'm paraphrasing here, but it it sounded like you left pro cycling in part because your career didn't feel like yours, like the races are chosen for you, the role is defined. And when you're now in this role with Solomon, how much say do these nine athletes have in their own competitive calendars? And you know, where's the line between Solomon's strategic interests and maybe what the athletes actually want to build?

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Yep. So that's a great question. Um, because I think the future of Trail will probably start to look a little different. Um, you know, up until now, it's always been a very, you know, bar like, okay, we'd love to have you at UTMB or a hard rock or something. It's been very open. Like an athlete would just choose their schedule. A lot of times that aligned pretty well anyway, because most athletes want to be at UTMB for the most part. So it aligned quite well. But I think moving forward, um, and you know, people might not like me for this, but I'm a firm believer in having a more structured calendar in the team. Um because well, there's two things there. It's one, when you're operating the way that we're operating now in Solomon, one, it allows for a team structure to be much more efficient, right? Like if we have three or four team races throughout the year, that allows us to be efficient with budget, it allows us to be efficient with staff, it allows us to be efficient with logistics versus having 10 races that we're trying to support because a couple of athletes are here or there. Um, the next gen program, we have a calendar. Um, and the athletes, it's a part of their contract, that calendar. Um it's four races, it's not a lot. Um they're all short, I mean short distance. We're talking mostly short distance athletes here. So they have, for example, uh, we're doing Marathon Le Mont Blanc. Um we'll do uh Pitts Alpine, Golden Trail. Uh most, well, everyone is doing a race at UTMB, mostly ETC. And then we have one race at the end of the year, which is um Ultra Peer and EU, which is here in in Spain. Beyond outside of that, they can do more races and and they will. Um if it's you know Europeans or whatever. And obviously, there's some flexibility in there. If someone has a real specific goal that they're going after, um, we can do that. But also we're in a position where naturally that calendar lined up with what most of those young athletes want to do. They all want to do Marathon de Mont Blanc, across 23k. They all want to do a golden trail race. I mean, these athletes are super keen to race. Um against the best, too. Yeah. And ETC, they all want to race. So a lot of that structure happened naturally. Um and ultra-peer and you, I added, um, more for them to understand that sometimes we go to a race. I mean, it's solemn and ultra-peer and you, so it's a solemn sponsored race, that sometimes we go to a race because it's important to our brand, right? We're a headline sponsor, we want to have athletes there. Um, and it's important that we go and support those races. It doesn't have to be an A race for them, obviously, but we go, we probably do an activation in the community at the race, do the the 20K race, and then, or even the just the VK if they want. I mean, it doesn't have to be a race, but you know, we go, we attend, and we support the brand um at the races that they support. And then beyond that, they have their their own structure, um, doing some different races here and there uh for training or something. At the international level, I'm a I don't know, like I said personally, uh, you know, if I think about how can a brand be like impactful, right? Like you need to choose key moments, right? And now we're in it we're entering a competitive landscape now. You know, we've got uh, I mean, obviously Hoka has the UTMB World Series, you know, they're massive at Chamonix. Um we all assume that ACG is going to have a lot of impactful moments this year. I mean, um, so at a certain point, you need to be, you know, if you want to have those key moments for yourself as a brand, I think we need to choose moments. I mean, I'm not saying this is what happened at Solomon, this is what how I envision trail running happening in the future. You need to choose key moments and focus on them and drive an impact there from a marketing standpoint. Um and that usually happens by having your best athletes, um, investing in, you know, whatever you feel is the act of marketing activation of that race. Um, you know, you're gonna put money behind promotion, creating content, doing all sorts of stuff. Um and then again, it needs to be worth it, right? So, you know, we probably want to consolidate certain races and efforts to have more bigger impact moments. Um and then also, I mean, we we're also very fortunate in Solomon, we've got a lot of athletes who have other interests uh or other interests, but also other ways of providing impactful moments. You know, if it's FKTs um like Francois and Courtney and Mathieu, all these sorts of athletes have done pretty significant FKTs and are quite good storytellers. Um that always helps also. But um yeah, let's see.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

I'm trying to think of how to phrase this question. I mean, I guess to preface it, and this is more for the audience too, but in cycling these team structures, they eventually produce pretty specialized roles like I mean, you were a domestique, there's the climbers, there's the sprinters, etc. Not everyone is racing to win. Uh the race, they kind of serve a collective strategy. Trail running, for the most part, is at a point right now where it's like every athlete for themselves, even though there is loosely a team. Do you think the sport of trail ultra ever gets to the structural equivalent where like some of the athletes' jobs on a given race at UTMB, for example, is to protect a teammate's position or set a pace? Are we there yet?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Questions. I would say we're definitely not far off that happening. But also I think I think what we need to do, and I really hope somebody listening does this, but like how do we not have a team ranking in our sport like UTMB World Series or UTMB. Like you know a team ranking for OCC, CCC, UTMB. Like I'm still very I don't understand why that doesn't exist because I mean totally externally sitting here, you know, totally like uh you know from the couch, but like it doesn't seem like a very difficult thing to do. But when you have that team ranking all of a sudden, you know, we can bring value to not only the winner's result or the podium, but you know, you bring value to the, you know, like you take Formula One for example, like the fight for 10th spot for that last point on the grid is like huge. And they're so psyched when they get a point. And you know when you have, okay, we're going to take your top four or five athletes, you however you want to structure it, but all of a sudden the person who's racing for 10th place, you're still contributing something to the success of your team, right? And you still contribute to like at the end of the day, even though it's an individual individual individualistic sport struggling now, um you can only have so many winners.

unknown 1:07:46

Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Like if you look at UTMB the last amount of years, how many of those have been won by three or four athletes? You know, between Jim, Killian, uh Tom, Mathieu, I mean you can kind of name off the last probably eight years on on a single hand. But you know, all those other athletes are still racing hard and they're still how do we give that value? You know, how do we give that like okay that 12th place still meant something. That 15th place still meant something. Yeah. You know, and the athlete to give them this incentive to be out there still grinding and fighting. You know, because like this is one thing that the World Championships does so beautifully the world championships is like you race for your team. Okay, there's you become world champion but there's team there's an there's the national ranking. So athletes are like fighting for every spot because one point more or less is like your team's on the podium or it's not right you might be in like 15th spot, but you're still fighting for the team to get on the podium. So I think that would add like a really nice dynamic to the racing would add a really nice storyline to racing, you know, talking about top ranked teams, things like that and and probably would bring a really nice storyline to the transfer window. Like if you start to think of like a yearly ranking, okay, maybe the athlete carries over some of his points, you know, like there's many ways that you could create a really nice narrative using a team ranking system that I think would add a lot of value. Apart from you know like will there be more specific key roles? I think so, probably that's a natural will be a natural evolution probably even more so in ultra than potentially short distance. But you know even in short distance we can play with tactics in terms of like point scoring and different things to help you know finish ahead of someone so they don't get more points in the in the final or whatever. But I think to me one thing that's really missing is the how can we build that team narrative.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

Okay so if you had a crystal ball one maybe maybe if I'm listening correctly one of your predictions is that in the next five to ten years these teams have more special specialized athletes supporting roles and not everyone on that team who's lining up at UTMB on race day is necessarily like in it for the win. They're there to protect the team in some cases.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

Yeah protect the team or add value like in terms of point scoring or something like that. I mean I think we have to go that way because I think we can't only focus on the winners. Like we need to bring value to to the whole team structure. But yeah I mean surely things are going to start happening you know um in the next years I mean it's just um it seems natural.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

With programs like this one, you know assuming our sport gets better at developing or recruiting and developing talent like I I'm I'm so curious to know how the competitive landscape changes like do we ultimately see less dominance from people like Katie Courtney, Jim Killian? Is there more parody how do you see that playing out?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

I think it's probably going to take us um a couple of years but I think eventually we will see um we will see maybe less dominant athletes that are like our super dominant race on race season on season like you said your Courtney's uh Katie's Jim's Killians um and we'll start to see probably more shuffling of the top results I think because I think as the whole level raises at the sport um we're gonna see more top athletes and we already see it now I mean we see it some really incredible young athletes um you know you look at the world championships again last year I mean Louisa who races on Solomon um and the French team like these young guys I mean Jim won but they were you know they were pushing Jim you know and they're 10 years behind him in age. Maybe not quite well probably um so maybe even a bit more so you think like when all these athletes are progressing I mean the level is increasing and the depth is increasing and that depth is just going to come like we say before now there's this like what we feel like there's this continual talent pool coming in you know um as the sport grows and I think the other thing is like money and contracts will just incentivize that growth. You know the moment more athletes think that you know they can commit to making a living as a trail runner I mean that's just incentive to to well one you dedicate all your time so potentially you could be better um and you just naturally will get more professional programs and more professional types of athletes entering the sport. And I think we saw I mean in this unfortunately right now cycling is not a good example because it's pretty much dominated by four guys. But before that we went through a period of a few years like you know post-Froom era and stuff we went through a a period where it was really like dynamic. You know different guys were winning all the time uh different teams were winning um you know in some of the grand tours jerseys were changing hands quite often and that was a really exciting time um in the sport and then we've kind of gone back to having some kind of dominant characters um and maybe that's also a natural evolution of sport right like you get these sort of general general generational athletes come through once in a while that are just outstanding um and once they move on we probably go through another period of being quite quite equal. But yeah but trail also I mean the other thing with trail running is we have a lot of races which is great. I mean we don't have a lot of we've got the key uh a few key races but there's a lot of races and a lot of opportunities for athletes to to come up and and race but um yeah also we need to get all the the thing I think that we still also maybe lack a little bit is that there's not often that we get everyone right like when do you see the big showdown where Jim, Killian Tom, Mathir, like all the guys are at UTMB, right? Like um which would be a super thing to see, right? So that's also probably another thing is that we don't as often get to see like the real concentration of of the champions racing together against each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

Do you think more depth in the sport necessarily means careers are shorter because things like biological prime matter more? Like are we going to see less people in our sport in a few years who are still competitively relevant late 30s 40s Ludo pushing you know 50 early 50 stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:31

I think we're probably still pretty far away from that being a thing. Yeah um you know I think in a a very very mature endurance sport you can start to see that the careers get a little bit shorter because athletes start at a higher level younger just to make it to that level. But I think in in running we're probably still a bit away from that happening. Mostly because we just have we're just not mature enough as a sport I don't think to have reached that. And you know again we have like still have a lot of talent that's untapped we have a lot of races that are untapped we have a lot of things that are untapped so we're not yet like pushing that ultimate pinnacle and I think it's when you get to that pinnacle that you know I mean the other thing is though that the trail is one thing we'll see is that you know it might not necessarily be the biological side but more the mechanical side is probably a bigger problem because you know speeds are increasing even in ultras like you have to run faster now. Mechanical load is increasing you have to train at a higher mechanical load because you have to run faster. So I think that will probably slowly start to be more maybe more of an issue than than biological. So again that comes into you know do we get smart and we cross train more and do other things to manage load and um and training. That's where probably chill running and and running in general be quite an interesting experiment in the next 10 years to see how that develops. But speeds now are crazy. You know like when you see what these guys are running for 50Ks and things like that, it's pretty mind-blowing you know how fast they have to run I know we're almost at time so I I just want to ask you a few more questions.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

I I wrote a note down here from our last conversation You know I know you built your cycling career we can call it in the marginal gains era. Like I wrote down that you had your team sending you mattresses to swap out at hotels, for example like that was part of the extent of how deep it went. You've now been in trail running for a few years. Have you found that this is a sport where most of that framework translates pretty neatly or is this a more complicated sport to uh you know insert those uh those features in uh definitely not I mean I think there's room for it I just don't think we're there yet I mean marginal gains are something you start to implement when you've maximized everything else and we've not maximized a lot of things yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:28

But in the future I mean you just look at you know like when we think about adding chefs to races in camps you know this is it's a maximum it's a marginal thing. One, we want to keep athletes healthy long term so it's about feeding them good food. Obviously you want them also to perform which you need good food and good energy. But there's still so much low-hanging fruit I think that is to be collected before we start to talk. I mean there's definitely room for it. I mean you think about like okay having um more comfortable chalet you know having you know everybody could have their own you know have uh their own bedroom you know things like this where okay they're small things but they might you might sleep a bit better you might do a bit something else you know we always have um coffee machine um like full coffee setup that travels around with the team um just so we can also have good coffee because it's it's a nice thing to have but also good coffee is more healthy than bad coffee. Um I mean there's a lot of small things that you can do that are very easy. And then the marginal gains is start to get a bit more expensive as you go on for smaller return. So you really need to be at that point where you're like okay we want to invest in that last percent and you know right now I think spending on that would be you know we'd probably spend the budget on some other stuff before we got got down there. But I mean there's definitely a framework for it there always is I mean you can always um find ways to improve performance but like I said I think we still need to cover the the low-hanging fruit before we start thinking too much about that. But the marginal gains the thing is everybody talks about because they're super sexy. You know everyone loves talking about marginal gains love talking about this and that and this you know um but the reality is you just number one step if you talk to anyone who works in a high performance environment number one rule is nail the basics first. Yeah. And then let's let's move on to the to the sexy stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

I don't know which bucket this falls into if it's substantial or marginal gains, but like I mean we we interviewed Jim Walmsley before Western States last year and one of the things that blew me away was he knew the number of switchbacks on the devil's thumb climb midway through that course 39. And it makes me like I know for example UTMB is a focus for you guys. How how granularly are you guys breaking down that course and like having data on oh you know this is the climb out of core my air and we have this heart rate data and you know all that type of stuff for how to execute like micro sections of the course?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

Yeah definitely I mean we do um you know we work with this DOE protocols demands at the event um and we break down key races I mean I guess in that sense quite granularly um but you know we look at um more so like VAM like what sort of VAM you need to have on climbs, what sort of VAM you need to maintain across the whole race. We've analyzed obviously heaps of past results from the top 10 looking at you know interestingly if you run the first descent at more than 100% of your average pace, the reality is you're going to blow up by the end. I mean there's things that we've looked at like the percentage of people who run the first downhills too fast, who then like their performance drops significantly in the last part versus someone who runs the first part of the downhill is more controlled. Interestingly there was a stat that we saw on Jim the year he won he was running the last I have to check exactly but it was like the last descent or like one of the last descents at the same speed percentage wise of his of his average pace, percentage wise the same as one of the first descents in the race. And he was the only person who did that like he could run at a hundred he ran the last downhill at 100% of his average pace versus a lot of people run the first ones way too fast, like 140% of their average speed. But then they drop to like 60% by the end, right? So they're losing all their downhilling so their quads are shot or whatever. So you kind of pick out this data of like okay descent uphills downhills you know when we take all the data there's always exceptions and outliers but we take all the data we see this happens at towards the end of a race. But yeah I mean we build um pacing charts um for athletes last year was the first year we started building the pacing charts for athletes um and they're based on mostly them um downhill speed overall speed but here's the catch is you still need the athlete to fold the plan but that's that's interesting that it's a function of follow through at this point. It's crazy. I mean you would never think but like getting the athlete to I mean we're such an uh in many cases instinctive well we're instinctive creatures like we we just someone goes and we follow them or I'm feeling great so I go um you know I'm feeling awesome today so you know today might be my day you know but um like trying to get and this is you know you come back to this idea of like starting young how do we go by a process driven approach where we like prepare and we execute right so that by the time they get to the international level it's like look we've built this pacing plan we know who you are as an athlete we know this is what you can achieve inside of that is margin having you know amazing day having average day um so we build some margin in there but this is a realistic plan for you right so don't think you're gonna show up on the day and run 20 minutes faster like in that moment on the first climb where you're feeling awesome you might think that that might be the day you're wrong but the reality is most likely you know we set the top limit as like you know we have data on who you are as an athlete it's not like we're setting the bar really low and like you know we're setting an upper limit to this and a a lower limit so you have a range but like don't expect to go massively over this range early on and then you know smash your best race ever by 30 minutes. Like that's you know we need to be a little not robots but we need to be a little bit smart right and it's one thing like the pacing thing is is incredible to me because um it's not something that's super easy to get by in always right um but you see like last year's a prime example I mean both Tom and Ruth I mean they have someone building them a pacing plan nutrition plan you know we could see it out in the field because um and I really apologize because I I forget the gentleman's name now um Joseph the pace the pacing there you go Joseph yeah I saw him in the field um because I was also out there um in the field like giving splits during the race and stuff and and and talking to athletes and whatnot he was there about a kilometer and a half two kilometers after every feed zone he had a whiteboard he was writing notes on there so the wank they came by like that's happening you know um they're taking that serious and those athletes are sticking to the plan executing the plan and winning races and I don't feel that's a robotic thing like I think some people will be like okay you know we're losing the the heart of it you should just go and run and and you should understand you should do this but like I don't know I feel it's like you still always have the humanistic approach because you still need to go and do that. Like you still have to run a hundred miles right like it's not an easy thing and you need to execute and you need to eat and you need to do the things you are still battling your own internal mental battles you are still battling athletes. Like what's the biggest battle is a guy running away from you or a girl and you holding back right like you want to go but like and you have these moments of doubt like wow wow maybe they're just really better than me today but I'm gonna stay in my you know what I mean? It's not just you know you send the guy out there or a girl and it's like okay they're just knocking off splits kilometer by kilometer. There's still a lot involved in in just getting that process across the line But you know, why not be smart about it? Um and just because a big portion of that is even for athletes, it's just an educational thing. I mean, go out there, run the splits one year correctly, and then okay, maybe after that you know how to run UTMB and you internalize your splits and you know where you need to be and stuff. But like I think sometimes we do this sort of like, you know, caution of the wind, go out there, run for a bit, and then settle in and see what happens. Um but yeah, maybe we can be smart about it in a certain way.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:40

Uh the way I think about it, I think orchestration and improvisation, I mean, they're both different, or they're different, but I think they're both beautiful in certain ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:47

And I don't think you can in a race like UTMB, you can't not improvise. That's gonna happen. Yeah. Right? No matter what, no matter how good your plan is in an ultra, I mean, something's gonna happen, right? Either your stomach's gonna go or you need to take a bit less now and a bit more later, but you need to you need to just um improvise, but it's about understanding what the scenarios are and understanding that in those situations, how do I improvise to fix it and educate myself with certain scenarios and how I can manage them later on.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:23

Do you feel similar to cycling, there is an incentive to keep certain insights proprietary about how to be successful at for your team at races like UTMB?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:33

Um I think so, but you know, running is a sport that's very much in the public eye, right? So like the reality is if you're gonna do any sort of um let's say performance initiative, everybody's going to see it. And then they're gonna implement it the next year. You might have a year, right, where you can try something and the next year everybody does it. Um so yes and no. I mean, there's also things, you know, in cycling it's more a little more guarded, but a lot there is more around probably training, preparation. Um there's also still like not that much you can do. But I think training methodologies is something probably more in the cycling world that is a little bit more guarded because that's kind of where they hit their performance markers. Um, but again, most, let's say, marginal games, even in cycling, you'll you'll see it, right? I mean, we as athletes will see um, you know, the chef or see the mattresses or see, you know, what other teams are doing. I mean, again, you're kind of a massive traveling uh circus, so it's kind of hard to kind of hide things too much. And but I think there's always times where you can, you know, you can play one key advantage one time, and then you know, you do that. Um, I think that's really a part of sport and what drives innovation and what drives, you know, the culture of sport and things like that and make it exciting. You know, we all remember Killian taking bicarb. Well, we didn't know what it was. We all remember that UTMB where he's sitting there eating eating from this bowl, this goopy stuff with a spoon, and we're like, what's going on here? And you know, he did that once, and everyone knows what it was, and then other athletes are doing it, right? Um, so you know, I think those little things are those marginal gains. I think Killian is a really interesting guy on that because you know, I love everything about him, um, who he is as a person, who he is as an athlete, you know, obviously his accomplishments, he's super inspiring in his range of an athlete. Um, but one thing I was sometimes find funny, and you know, I also get this with some of the older athletes. Um, I remember the first year of the performance program with Francois, you know, he was quite he wasn't sure about it. You know, he's like, we're gonna become robots, we're gonna become like a cycling team, we're just gonna be like looking at our power meters. He's a soul runner.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:20

He's a soul runner.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:21

But you know, what these guys do when they prepare for a race, it's like Jim. They know all the switchbacks, they know all the things, they like, you know, they're measuring this, they're weighing that, you know, the pack's gonna be as light as possible. Like they're all they're already marginal gaining, but like for some reason, like they don't, you know what I mean? It's the same with with Killian, it's you know, very free-spirited, very everything, but like the guy is super scientific about his training, his nutrition, you know, interventions, how he can like get the best out of his body. You know, so those athletes are very, very serious uh when it comes to their craft. You know, um, you know, when you look at Killian, I mean, how many rule books got rewritten by Killian in the early days in schemo, especially? You know, because he'd show up and he'll all of a sudden he's carrying skis the other way that no one's ever thought about. And then they want to kick him out of the race. And he's and and he already has the rule book with him because he knows that they're going to like try to like say, Oh, you didn't fall, and he's got it all circled. He knows what's so these guys have been pushing the limits of sport for a long time, and that's why we obviously also see progression in these sports. So, you know, I think now we see it more um, it's more present because obviously we have more media, we have more things. Um, and I think sometimes they feel that means, okay, maybe we're getting too robotic or whatever. But, you know, I think at the end of the day, it makes things interesting, you know, and and what are we trying to do? Um, you know, when it comes down to you know, being professional athletes, sports marketing, this, and it always thought the same thing when we were cycling. We are entertainers. Yes, we love the sport, we would go run anyway. Um, but the reality is we're doing sport, and a lot of sport is entertaining people, and that's marketing. So why is a sport should we not be entertaining? You know, why we have these sorts of like, and I like that this year we start to have different segments. If it's on your podcast or Dylan's podcast, where it's like, what's the transfer market doing? Who's going where? You know, like these are just things that make it interesting. So we don't just talk about races. Um and, you know, in in the let's say, quote unquote, more off season when there's not many races going on, it gives us a narrative. It gives something for athletes to, or sorry, for fans to follow and like see where an athlete is going. And sometimes you have this like crazy announcement, which is like huge. So I think those things are are only great for the sport. Um, and if that means, you know, we're all watching Keeling eat a bowl of goop in UTMB, that was like one of the biggest things of that race, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:23

Well, is is Francois bought in or is he still skeptical about this whole movement?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:30

Um I would say he's pr pretty bought in now. Okay. Yeah. I think he's realized um a few things. I mean, I think for him you have to start, or he understands. I mean, he was already, like I said, a guy who really took his his craft very serious, if that's schemo or running or anything. But, you know, there's a whole what he realizes now probably is there's a whole other thing to unlock, potentially, of him, right? So he's getting older, and as we get older, it's like, okay, wow, okay, it's not coming as easy anymore. So how can I help make this work? Um, I still want to run and I still want to be competitive. And also the reality is the races are just faster. So, you know, you need to keep up. And if you want to keep up, you need to you want to run that fast, we need to dial nutrition. If you want to run that fast, probably we need to dial a strength program. You know, so you know, if if you want to keep progressing with the sport, at a certain point you have two options. One is like you need to progress with the sport, or you're probably gonna get left behind. Um, and Francois is someone who he cares really deeply about the sport. Um, he wants to be involved in the sport. So I think for him it was a moment where he realized, okay, this is this is it. And I think also there's now a year or so. I mean, you need buying, you need trust for these types of programs to work. And in the beginning, it was up to the performance program to show: look, we are here not to take over your life, and now you're gonna be coached internally, you're gonna have your internal physio, you're gonna have this, you're gonna have that. We are a support structure that's here to fill the gaps that you need right now to perform. You can keep your coach, you can keep your personal physio if you want. That's fine. You know, we're here to support, not impose. And, you know, some athletes straight away, they want that. They want the help. You know, they're just like super keen, generally more younger athletes. The older athletes, I mean, rightly so, they've had their physio for the last 10 years and someone they have a lot of trust in. You know, they've had their coach for 10 years, someone they've had a lot of trust in. So you have to allow the change to happen in its own on its own timeline, right? And, you know, I think who we have in the performance program has been able to gain trust from more of the athletes. Um and yeah, I would say that Francois's probably taking on a lot of stuff these days. It's been great to see. I mean, I'd love to see it because we want to have him around way longer in the sport, right? I mean, he's he's an icon and he's someone that's still, I think, like I said, I think he has a lot to give. And, you know, I'd love to see him again at the start line of UTMB, and I'd love to see him like do the loop another time and to do all that, right? So yeah, I mean, for me, it's very exciting to see him take that step.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:57

Can I ask you two more questions? Sure. Okay. Um yeah, the last time we talked, I remember you were really fascinated by like Norwegian methodology, Blumenfeld, those guys. Uh, you mentioned earlier like an internal coach. If I look at like the the sort of the most popular coaches in our sport in their approach is Coop, Roche, Scott Johnston, plenty others, but that's sort of the U.S. bias. Where does this coach's philosophy slot in?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:29

Um I think generally, I think what again, this comes back to the whole thing of like, we love to see the sexy stuff. We love to see the weighted vest, we love to see the uh, you know, whatever efforts. The reality is a lot of the time it comes down to very boring, consistent work. Um I think again, that's probably what all those coaches would tell you. Um, and then you sprinkle the sexy stuff on top, right? Um so I think uh we would probably sit in the range of all those guys, right? Um because the reality there's just there's obviously some nuances there. Some are a little bit more volume focused, some are a little bit more intensity focused. Um but the reality is I think a good coach understands what each athlete needs, right? And I think one of the biggest things that um that changed these last few years in cycling coaching is that the programs are built more individually versus team-wide, right? So, you know, maybe when I was racing, you know, you go to a training camp and like the whole team does a six-hour ride. And you're like, okay, well, you know, does the sprinter and the climber, should they be doing the same ride? The reality is they probably not, but like, you know, back then you just, you know, okay, everyone needs to do endurance, everyone needs to do this. But now it's much more individual. So they're really figuring out what are the physiological attributes of each athlete, how do we maximize that? We test them, what are they missing? What can we develop rather than a kind of a blanket approach of like, you know, I think if you think of like, okay, this is my approach, why is that approach for your whole team that doesn't necessarily make sense, or your whole stable of athletes? Yes, you have some ideas, but like, you know, being volume focused might not work for everybody. Whereas being intensity focused might not work for everybody. And I think that's why, you know, when you have individual coaches, right, like you might say generally a certain type of athlete goes with Coop, and a certain type of athlete goes with David or Scott. But when you're in a team environment, you have one coach, right? And it's not that it's you have three different types of coaches and everyone finds one. So you need a coach that, you know, there's an overarching way that we do things, but the reality is you have to be quite individual with this person needs more volume, this person needs less volume. You know, this person needs more intensity, or they already have naturally a super high VO2 max. So actually what we need to do is more aerobic work and bring that VO2 max down so they're more efficient. You know, it's these sorts of things that you have to really approach on an individual basis. And I think that's probably a little bit more the secret to coaching a team versus coaching being a coach who has an individual group of athletes who are from everywhere, right? Um, yeah. So yeah, I think it's probably more on that sort of balanced approach and really making sure that each athlete gets an individual program that suits their physiological needs.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:59

All right. Last question, I promise I really appreciate your time. Um All of the nine athletes, from what I gather, they're European. Is that a function of where Solomon's talent ID infrastructure currently lives, or is that a deliberate regional focus?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:16

Definitely not deliberate. Um I think it was more initially. I think this year, because as a new program, um it was the easiest way to get started was to focus on our on our countries, like our main markets, right? Where we had um sports marketing managers set up who already had athlete pools and they were bringing people together. Um we are super diverse. We don't have two athletes from the same country. Um so we're from we've got Norway, Switzerland, UK, and Sweden on the women's side. And then we've got Spain, France, Austria, Scotland, um, and Holland on the men's side. So we're very diverse. Um also again was not deliberate, it was just a function of the athletes that uh we selected. But I think the future I would love to see the future be two things. One, global. Um and two, I would love the future to be at least where we have a component of where anyone can apply. You know, you don't necessarily have to come from uh a Solomon country manager, like a sports marketing team, where we could have a system where we have a standardized testing protocol that you could run. Like for this year, we had all the athletes did um a 1600 meter and uh 4,000 meter on the track. Sorry, it was 1200 meter and 4,000 meter on the track. And it was a structured protocol. You warmed up, did that, rested, warmed up again for five minutes, then did the four, and then you sent in your times. Um, and you obviously like had to send the GPX files and stuff to like, you know. Um and that was a very broad way to already kind of like let's narrow down the kind of 35, 40 athletes to the 17. Um also including some race results and different factors. But um, it would be amazing if we could have a structure where you know we would say, okay, from this period, maybe it's a one-month period, anyone in the world can send us their their data, right? And we could see what's out there, you know. Um also, we already have some athletes on our radar who were too young to join the program, who applied. Um, you know, we have a minimum age of 18, who are exceptional athletes already, like training like crazy, which is kind of a unique um thing to see, and I see how that would unfold long term. But, you know, I would love to see it be more international. Um also for us, as even as a brand, Asia is very important. Um, and it would be it would be amazing to either have potentially an Asian version, uh, just because of you know logistics and travel. Um and Asia being the size and population density that it has, it could probably have its own kind of program over there. Um, and then sort of the European program slash um North American program because you know I'd love to see a young Canadian or a young American on the team.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:51

Would would an Asia investment come before North America, do you suspect?

SPEAKER_01 1:46:57

Um probably not, because I I imagine the North American you would probably incorporate into the European one. Uh-huh. Because I think for a yellow lot of young athletes, I think the idea of coming to race a Europe would be like super amazing. And that's something that's probably beyond their radar. Um, and that's something that's probably relatively easy for us to support.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:18

Okay. I I I I promise this is the last question. I'm just Do you think do you think that in the long run our sport is physically converging on Europe like cycling? Like, are all the best athletes going to be coming to Europe for the most part? And their other regions are just like where they are on the periphery? Is the heartbeat in Europe? Um for trail?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:45

Like yeah, for trail. I mean, I would say it probably is, yes. Um I mean, I think what we're sort of seeing as the sport progresses, which is interesting, is you know, it's always been popular in Europe. But what I think is interesting is that American racing style is becoming more popular in Europe, if that makes sense. Like, you know, for us Europeans, I mean, everybody's watching, you know, Canyons 100 or Black Canyon or Western or so there's a draw to I'm gonna call it that style of racing, right? Like the faster, more runnable stuff. Um, I think there's a draw to European athletes for that also. Um, because sometimes sometimes not all athletes are like skyrunning athletes. Like some want to run fast, and they are very fast runners, um, and they prefer maybe less technical terrain. But I mean it's an interesting thing because yeah, we're I think I feel like that American racing circuit is becoming more popular in Europe to watch as a fan. Like more people are tuned into what's going on there. Again, the media is growing, you know, trail running media at the end of the day, it's all comes to like how our exposure, right? So if that's podcasts, YouTube, like things are happening where for the first time, I mean, live streams, I mean, these are huge. If you can tune in and watch it, I mean, that's much more exciting than just waiting until it's over and and reading a results sheet, right? So I think there's definitely that sort of, you know, or around golden ticket chasing. Um, you know, we see that in Europe too, with Keanti and stuff. It's like it's talk. You know, people are here talking about these athletes are coming here to try to get a golden ticket for Western State. And like I think just generally as a sport, it's more popular, more exposure, there's more races to watch. There's it's nicer to be a fan. It's more fun to be a fan. And, you know, most. those athletes or fans. So um but I think if you wanted to if you were you know I think there's still a big appeal to getting to UTMB. I mean I think that's probably for a lot of people still um you know Western UTMB like North American athletes want to come and and show themselves at UTMB especially um and you know Golden Trail I think it's also really interesting. We're starting to see some more sort of um American athletes coming over to race Golden Trail which is super nice to see um Golden Trail is going to be you know they've got one in in in Quebec this year so it's kind of on the international one it's going to North America so that'll be interesting to see but yeah I mean I think the I kind of personally probably feel the heartbeat is still in in Europe for trail running.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:57

Christian I deeply appreciate the time here today I learned the 10. I'm sure the audience did as well final word from you any any final thoughts for the listeners and viewers I think it's just a super amazing time for the sport.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:11

So much is happening there's so much potential for amazing things to still happen. Obviously we need to be careful in how we do everything but you know I think the excitement is palpable you know and it's a good time to be in the sport and it's a good time to be you know an athlete a young athlete in the sport. I think there's a lot of potential and a lot of opportunities to dream, right? Let's dream big.