Courtney Dauwalter: Chianti Pivot, Marathon Lessons + Cocodona Redemption

Courtney Dauwalter returns to the Singletrack Podcast ahead of her second attempt at Cocodona 250, the race she started last year and didn't finish, to talk through everything that has happened in between.

We open with the Tenerife cancellation and the scramble to pivot to Chianti, including the late surge that won the race and why she credits road marathon training for giving her a new gear she didn't know she had.

From there we get into her first real reset in her ultra career, what went wrong at mile 108 at last year's Cocodona, and the one problem she's most excited to solve across day two, night two, and day three of this year's race.

We close on her five year Salomon contract extension, what a post-racing chapter actually looks like to her, and what's on the bucket list beyond the three classics (Western States, Hardrock, and UTMB) she's built her career around.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

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SPEAKER_00 1:29

I'm doing great. It's good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Great to be here. And I think we start with Tenerife slash Chianti. When Reef got canceled due to extreme weather earlier this year, uh was your first instinct to take the week off and restart? Was it to immediately start looking for something new? Walk us through that decision-making calculus.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Oh man, it was a whirlwind. I think that week felt like three months by the end of it. We were just like, what just happened? Um, but going to Tenerife, we had been watching the weather and definitely seeing that up high, because the summit of that race is at like 11,000 feet or something really high for starting at the beach and ending at a beach. Um, but we had seen that it was some weather coming in for that summit. And so Kevin and I had been, you know, kind of talking about like, oh, maybe they do reroutes or, you know, what might be the alternate option for this race. But we knew there was weather coming in, but it hadn't crossed our mind that potentially the weather could cancel it as well. Like it would be that bad. Um, and what when we arrived at the island just week of the race, we arrived there on um Monday of race week. Um, we started to hear rumblings that potentially it could be canceled and that a reroute actually wouldn't um solve all of the safety issues that this storm was potentially gonna pose for the island and all of the people in the race. Um and then we just started kind of spitballing like, okay, if it if it's canceled, what are our options here? Like, should we just vacation? Should we, you know, stay here and train? Should we pivot to a different race? Should we, what should we do? Um, because I was planning to stay then in Europe for my training camp with Solomon. So like coming home wasn't really top of our list of options. Um, and Keanti was for sure on the list. Like, that would be a great race to go to if it's possible, if we can get there, if I can um, you know, get entry into it. All of these pieces were like what ifs. Um mostly because with Coca-Dona coming up, I wanted to have some sort of race to start the season. And the timing was uh really perfect for getting one in at some point during my trip in Europe. And so Chianti was a pretty good option that we found and then uh figured out a way to make it work to get there, which was all Kevin.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I'm so thankful for him and his spreadsheet brain because I mean I I didn't I didn't realize that you had already gotten to the island and then you had to get off before the storm comes. Or maybe you did you leave in the in the storm?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Uh, we were able to get off the island then before any of the storm started and really rolled in. So we were just really lucky with all the timing, and it was um a huge bummer to not race Tenerife and to not get to stay there and actually explore this place. It the reason we were doing it was because from Grand Canaria, which is an island we've fallen in love with over the years from doing Transgran Canaria and just going there to train, you can see the mountain on this island at Tenerife from Grand Canaria. And we'd always looked across and been like, one day we gotta go over there and like climb that mountain. And so the Tenerife Blue Trail 110K goes up and over this mountain that you can see. And it was like, let's do it, we gotta get there. So it was a huge bummer, and I know like, you know, so many people putting in so many hours to train for these races to have them canceled is um, and all the volunteers, all of the race folks, all of the towns, like it was a uh unfortunate situation, but um, I was then we were very thankful we were able to get ourselves back to mainland Europe before any of the big storm stuff rolled in.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Given the priorities for the rest of the year, I know you've got Coca-Dona on the Docket, you've got hard rock. Um, maybe we'll talk about the second half of the year later. Was it psychologically easy to make a pivot from something like Tannerif to something that I would I would assume is a radically different course at Keonti? Was that kind of okay by you just to get something hard in?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, yeah. I wasn't bothered at all that the courses like couldn't really be more different. Um I just was excited to pin a biv on. I realized as we were headed to Tenerife that I hadn't raced an ultra since UTMB at the end of August the year before. Um, so I was like, man, that's a long stretch to not, you know, get the 12 plus hour zone going. Um, so I was just pumped. But yeah, like Tenerife starts at 11 p.m. You're basically climbing up a mountain with poles and a ton of required gear through the night. And then Chianti is like uh rolling terrain, very runnable, not much required gear. So it was like uh very different. But um, yeah, just getting a bivon was the the whole point.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

In retrospect, was that uh I guess it was five and a half months. Was that five and a half month racing reset break? Was that was that a good thing? Was that sort of planned?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

It was a great thing. Um, it wasn't necessarily planned, um, but I got this road marathon bug that while was kind of occupying my uh heart for a while there, where I was just really curious about the road marathon scene. Um so that combined with like UTMB recovery took me a really long time this past year. Um, and then suddenly the the months were gone and there was no time for another ultra.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

What what is the verdict on marathon? Are you are you are you gonna do more in the like? Can we plan on like one a year? Like, what are you thinking there?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Oh, absolutely. It was so fun. I loved it. I'd be curious to hear. Um, I know you just did a road marathon as well and smashed it, but just like it's like the exact same thing. You know, you're running, but it feels entirely different. Everything about it for me was like, it felt brand new. I felt like I was learning so much. I was this rookie, I was like seeking out types of terrain that I'm not usually seeking out. You know, it was just like really felt fresh and uh exciting. And um yeah, I'm just like pushing yourself for that amount of time at speeds that are a little faster than the mountain marching is pretty fun.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yeah, I was just gonna say, I mean, you're getting amazing feedback at this stage in your career. You're still improving as a runner, you're still getting better.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

I'm trying. I mean, it looked like you like how did you like the road marathon?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Well, I I was hoping, well, I don't know. Here, I I prefer death by many cuts. I like the multi-day because it's I can, for whatever reason, I can handle like a lot of cuts over like three days, but that concentrated pain, I mean, I barely made it to the finish line. I was throwing up in the in the finished corral there. It was pretty bad.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Man, but like, are you curious to try again?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, because I I do like how scientific it is. And I like how it's like inputs equal outputs. Like you do this in training, and it's like pretty, you're pretty sure what you're gonna hit on race day. I mean, there is a little bit of margin, but I kind of liked the certainty going in that if you did the work, you were gonna get that. Um, whereas I think trail is maybe a bit more mysterious, especially like a race like Kokodona. Like you could do a lot of hard work in Cocodona, and I mean, there's a huge mystery on the on the start line, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for those road marathons, I'm not a pace person at all. I'm not really a numbers and data person, but I was attached to like looking at the pace and trying to keep dialing it down and figure out how I can, you know, find the speed out there on the roads. And um, I liked that. I didn't know if I would or not, because because I'm so not numbers and data, but I ended up really liking it. And maybe it was just because it felt novel and like a new challenge and a new, a new way to explore what's possible. But you you definitely it is way different than trailbitting.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Like yeah. I got I gotta tell you a quick story. So uh when I was when I did the LA Marathon last month, um, on the flight out, I somehow managed to accidentally leave my watch at home. Like that was not planned, and I wasn't about to go drop 500 bucks on a new one the day before the race. And so I just did the race without a watch. And I actually think in retrospect, I got the absolute best out of myself, and I would have probably had a worse race with the watch because going in, I had like a fixation on a certain pace per mile. And I think if I had actually gone out at that pace, I would have blown up. But like my body just put me into this effort that it just intuitively knew. And I think I had like even splits. It was really interesting, it was really crazy. So I was starting to think like maybe I shouldn't like bring a watch on race day. I don't know. So yeah, just go on. Just see. Um, but yeah, I was just gonna say, like, uh, you know, at Keonti, for the media, like myself, the fans, all we could really do was dot watch and get stories secondhand. But by all accounts, it was thrilling. You make a surge late to win the race. I have to imagine some of that marathon training must have kicked in. Like walk, and I think it was it the final 15K.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Uh yeah, probably more like the final 10 or 12K, but that last section.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Was it a decision you made? Was it could you just like feel something shift? Like walk us through that part of the race. Because it was just, I mean, from what I could tell, it was thrilling.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah, it was really fun. And it was um such an honor to run with Yingvilde and Rachel the whole day and to share, you know, this really hard thing together and um help push each other and kind of working with each other. Um yeah, it was a really special race experience for sure. And when I rolled into the last aid station, I was um behind both of them by a couple minutes or so. And Kevin got me reloaded for the last push. And um, I didn't really make a conscious decision to try to catch them, but I made a conscious decision to just like cut the brake lines and let's have some fun. Like, let's just slam the gas pedal and hold on for dear life and see what happens. And uh I didn't even like I didn't have visuals of them, so I didn't know, you know, if they're cutting the brake lines and they're doing the same thing, I'm not gonna see them, but we'll have some fun here in this last push, anyways. Um, so it was just like a really joy-driven last bit for me. But for sure, I can um thank the marathon training for uh building more mental confidence in that gear in turning the dial and knowing like when I turn that dial, it's not like gonna sputter and just give me a little bit. Like there's actually like sustained time available if I turn the dial there, you know? And so um slamming the gas pedal felt like okay, I know I know what this feels like to hold, so let's just hold and see. Um but yeah, it was it was really fun and kind of crazy because the finish line, you like run up this pretty mean hill to get back into the town, but then you're like weaving through this little town, and there was no information for anybody. So um Kevin is standing at the finish line thinking, you know, okay, I'm gonna see the first place woman, the second place woman, and then um Courtney will be coming around this corner that's like 20 yards away or something, is the only glimpse they get. And so it was fun to um see his like surprised face, I think.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

It's it's pretty cool that that you now have evidence that from other sports you can gain like new permissions in the pain cave. Like that gave you another level to go to.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, it just felt like it was like carved out more solidly from the marathon training, you know? And so I knew going in there, like I I could be in there because it's been um made a little bit larger in that specific zone of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

The sense that I've gotten over the years is that one of your gifts is the ability to run on joy and to stay internally motivated and sort of tune out both positive and negative, the noise, the expectations from media folks like me, the crowd, the fans. And again, we haven't talked on the pods since 2024. So I'm just curious if if it's changed on the last year or so. Like, have you ever felt pressure outside yourself in any given race recently to put up a certain result? Or is it truly like I'm just there to see what I can do on this day with like the new tools I have?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, I don't feel the pressure from other people's expectations, but I for sure have expectations of myself and of um of competing at my best if I'm gonna put a bib on. So those expectations are always there and uh they're a driver, but those are for me, you know, and like um from they're for my heart, I guess, and like satisfaction and uh what you expect from me, I like you're great, but I it won't weigh on me in like a negative, you know, like um impeding way, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Well that that's interesting though. So there there have there been races where uh you haven't lived up to your own expectations? Like you felt like you could have gone like deeper into the pancave, but for whatever reason on that given day, like that resource wasn't there.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah, for sure. I think um last summer was interesting for me. And uh at La Vareto, I definitely had the feeling afterwards of like the dial didn't turn as far as I wanted it to, and the um time spent in the pain cave wasn't as productive as I wanted it to be. And I wasn't sure why I wasn't able to make myself go to that place. Um and yeah, same like there were a lot of things that happened for UTMB, but um for sure it was like what's happening this summer where the dial isn't turning as far as I would like it to.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Do you feel like you got a lot of answers in this like six months, you know, being on the roads and then ramping back up for uh Tenerife, which became Chianti?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah, I do. I feel like um it's tricky because we're not machines, so you can't just like plug us in and get a, you know, analysis of exactly what went wrong or why it went wrong or what to do about it. So we can all just like make our best guesses about these things and you know, take a bunch of of evidence or things that we've seen along the path and try and draw some conclusions from that. Um, but for sure in the in the last six months or whatever it's been, it um yeah, it was like a really good reset, I think. Switching to the roads was really cool, like just kind of like changing up the what I was asking my body to do was really helpful. And the types of training or the amount of hours even I was asking of it in the the end of last year was drastically different than what I had been doing for the five previous years. So I think it was all just like a really good refresh and like reframe and kind of like um like let's start again, you know, like let's wipe the slate for a minute and start fresh and and build back and see what happens when we start building from the ground instead of building on top of something that's been going for however many years.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Is that the first time you've ever done that in your ultra career?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah.

unknown 18:52

Wow. Sweet.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

So you're coming off Solomon camp in Grand Canaria and which looked super fun, by the way. Actually, but I should say this when when I was out in Grand Canary last year, indirectly, you sold me on Tejeda. I was in Tejeda for three weeks pre-race, and it was amazing. It's amazing. I really loved I really loved uh staying there for the time. But um, anyways, it looked amazing. And we coincidentally, we just had Christian Meyer on the show because Solomon put out the press release around the Next Gen program. I think he might have been out there. Was he out there too for camp? Because it looked like he was it looked like Grand Canary was in the background.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah, he wasn't at that camp.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

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SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, I think um it's been just really cool to see this performance program and the evolution of this next gen idea and um to I guess have started in the sport in 2011, you know, joined Solomon in 2017, and um now here. We are to have seen all the versions of the sport through the years, I think is really cool. Like to be in it for that whole evolution. I just feel really lucky to be in it during this time period, you know, to have um, I guess in the start, even like people were still probably running with maple syrup bottles and like, you know, like well, Jonathan Albin still does. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I think it's um been really interesting to see this program take off. And um, I am learning a ton with it. So I am, you know, I'm not a, I don't have a coach, I don't love the data, I'm not attached to numbers. I am definitely um running on joy and sugar in a lot of ways. And uh and I'm learning a lot from it, and I'm really open to learning all of those things because to me, at this point, it's like, why not try? Why not um be a newbie in this part of it, but like learn some new tools that I can add to my tool belt that I can then incorporate into the joy running, you know? So I see a place for both of it, and um and I think uh with the data-driven stuff, you can still have that joy element as a key piece of it. But like I've um been working with a strength coach in through that program, and you know, I previously maybe curled like a five-pound dumbbell, and now I'm like learning all sorts of new things about what to do in a gym, how it actually can benefit us through um on the trails and through 24 plus hours of running. Like it's just been really cool and interesting for me to um, yeah, I guess like know nothing and just be open to what do you got? Like, which pieces of this can I take that um don't make me like they still make me happy to be doing them, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Um maybe you've talked about this elsewhere, and but I I was curious to know, like, does your does your philosophy of joy and sort of intuitive racing, does that come from an early coach in your career, or is that just something that like is innate in you? It's like it's just it's your personality, and so you've just been true to it.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

I think it's a little bit of both. I um the person that I am, but I also growing up had really, really fantastic coaches. My cross-country and track coaches and my cross-country ski coach through middle school and high school were all about um we work really, really hard. And, you know, we had great teams and really talented people on all of them. We worked really, really hard, but there is always time to belly laugh and to enjoy the hard work. And um, I was just talking to someone about this recently, where uh it's like I I know that that's not the norm always for people growing up in running as their sport. I know um a lot of times somehow the enjoyment of it gets separated from the performance of it and running becomes something that they are excited to quit as soon as possible, you know, like after college or whatever it is. Um so having that foundation of working really hard is fun, and um we don't have to like have serious faces on, and we can be laughing really hard while putting in the work to perform at our best for whatever meat we're prepping for. So having that and like having the teammates that I had at that time who were all about that was a perfect storm for me to just like in my head now, running equates to joy. Like those two things are are the same.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

When you were doing the second half of the year reset last year, was the love of the sport ever in question for you?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

No, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Okay, that's awesome. And I I bring that up because I I read a post from Dakota Jones the other day where he kind of was like having this crisis of faith a bit. And he's like, I talked to Courtney, and Courtney asked me that question. So I was just curious.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Yeah, luckily the the joy was never gone and the love for it and the curiosity about what's possible have um, yeah, those haven't faded in the least.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Last thing on Keonti, you turn down one of the golden tickets to Western states, um, at least in the near term. And by near term I mean like, let's just call it two to three years. Is the is the chat is does this mean like the chapter is closed there for you, or is it like any given year I'm gonna reevaluate, you know, competing at that race?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah, I think I don't prefer to close doors firmly. So that door is not closed. Okay. Um yeah, and it just was like, man, I'm really excited about my schedule for these next months. So let's stick with the plan, even though going back to Western states would have been a really fun option as well.

unknown 27:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Let's finally talk Cocodona. It was thrilling to see you on the start line last year. I know you're already a veteran of this distance, uh, Moab Tahoe, et cetera. Um, so this wasn't a new thing for you. I mean, I know I know the theater of Kokodona was, but that distance is not new. Uh, if you think about your plan for last year's race, um, and I want to talk about both. Like what what seemed to work well and and what seemed to not work so well.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Uh, I mean, pretty broadly, what didn't work well is the finish line was in flagstaff at 250 miles, and my finish line was at 108 miles.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah. We all suffered at Mingus, by the way. I I have never gone through there ever feeling like I should keep going.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Oh well, yeah. Wait, I need just tips from you. Can we switch this now to you just give me tips?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

I'm still looking for them too. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Um I mean, I think what went well and what has still gone well about that is I really want to do it. I'm really curious about 250 miles and running for multiple days, multiple nights, what's possible? How do you execute on such a long race over such a long period of time? Um, and then how do you manage all of the problems that come up and keep moving forward? So that drive, like when registration opened for this year's Kokodona, it was like instantly I'm signing up because I knew that I'd started the story last year at Kokodona, but that the story wasn't done for me and that I absolutely needed to go give it another shot and see if this time I can make it a little bit further, hopefully all the way to Flagstaff.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

So, uh, what happened out there that caused it to unravel?

SPEAKER_00 30:03

It was a weird day from the jump. Um, it was one of those races where in the very first miles, everything, all of my systems in my body were like working against each other. Nothing was flowing, nothing was um moving together. It felt like all these gears were in there and none of the teeth were lining up, like they were just like grating against each other. And I've had races start like that before. And usually, you know, miles and time and food and smiling helps the gears then click into place. And, you know, then you can get that more like running flow feeling happening again. Um, so I just kept waiting for that. Like, let's just keep pushing and keep eating and keep smiling, and the gears will fall into place and the systems will start working together. Um, but it was more like instead of them clicking into place, it was like uh in a cartoon, you know, in like a factory or like a machine or something, like the dials are spinning, there's smoke coming out of it, like everything is like growing and turning more and more red, and like alarms are going off. Five alarm. It was like that where it was like gears aren't falling into place, and um everything now is just sort of like uh yeah, becoming even bigger problems, and eventually the machine just exploded, like in a cartoon they do.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Maybe like sickness, do you think in retrospect, sickness?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

I don't know. Um yeah, I don't know. Kevin was then really sick afterwards with something, so potentially, but I don't know. Or maybe it's just like one of those days, you know, where like your body's like, nah, we're not we're not gonna do that, you know. I'm not sure, but it was strange from the very beginning of it, and um, and maybe uh I don't know, yeah. But um cool to still make it 108 miles and see, you know, that very first part of the course, and now I'm excited to uh hopefully just roll through Mingus as not my finish line.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

One of the things I was curious about, because I was probably six or seven hours behind you, and we were catching, and I think the whole race was getting it, but it was, I mean, the weather conditions were kind of apocalyptic. Like we were getting in the Bradshaws, just I was snow, rain. Um I was getting, I mean, personally, I was getting like hypothermic, and I was wondering, like, for you, was it um because this race is so classically like a desert, it's it's hot, um, typically you're like in shorts and t-shirts at all times. Was there any like was that a factor at all where it's like, oh, like maybe gear related or um like just the conditions didn't match the gear or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah, I definitely, I mean, the conditions did none of us any favors, I don't think. Um but I I think I was taking care of myself up in the Bradshaws when we were getting some of the more horrendous weather. Um, and then yeah, I don't I don't know because like for me, maybe the weather was impacting me more than it would have if I was feeling more normal. But like for me, that was just the body systems, like my legs weren't working, my lungs weren't working, the heart wasn't working, like none of them were working together. And so maybe then adding in the weather bit of it like sped up how fast the explosion happened for me. Um, but yeah, I think weather like is a factor in these races, but for me, um usually I don't mind whatever weather is happening. I'm uh I'm from Minnesota and we we'll go really, really cold or really, really hot. We don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

So so I mean again, this is just my interpretation. It sounds like it was just like bad luck. If if I had to guess, this is me guessing, it sounds like you were probably just sick, which is just like crazy unlucky, unfortunate. Uh if it was sort of one of those chance type things, is there really is there like not much that you have to change in your training for this? Like are you not really changing much in the lead up to this and how you're thinking of executing the race?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Um, I think I'm changing some just based on um like maybe this last year of in general, learning a lot of new things and like kind of starting again from building the base again and going up. Um so I guess I'm changing some of that. Like I have more strength training now included, and um I'm trying to just like be more resilient and strong in that way and um be ready to like take on the miles with the type of pack that we have to carry for it and those pieces. Um, but that's all just like fortunate because I've been, you know, learning more about strength training in this last year as well. Um and I guess maybe like the overall mileage per week is uh is less on my mind and more just like let's just get out and get in good training and not chase like huge mileage weeks necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Have you had the chance to talk to Ryan Sands at all about his Coca-Dona last year and maybe picking any uh you know insights into that for your own execution?

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Yeah, a little bit last year. And then um I was just at the camp with Dan Cre Dan Green as well. Um, so is M. Lucy, who was uh crewing and pacing Ryan. So I was definitely um tossing ideas their way or asking some questions about stuff, but I also think in these 250-mile races that uh one person's version of the journey can look really, really different from another person's. So um yeah, just kind of like soaking in all of the advice and thoughts, and then we'll adapt and figure out what works for us.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

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SPEAKER_00 38:01

How to stay efficiently moving in day two, night two, day three? Like how can you keep what's the trade-off with sleep in order to do that? What's the what's the feeling look like? And then how do you just force your legs to run a pace that's decent and not slip into um more of like a w walking speed, which will probably be the speed at some times? But um, it would be nice to see like the the problem I want to see the most about is like what can you do to be efficient in those later stages.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Did you sleep during Moab or Tahoe?

SPEAKER_00 38:50

So during Moab, that was my first 200 plus mile race. And uh I laid down in the car at an aid station planned for 20 minutes, and I didn't sleep a wink during those 20 minutes, but uh we laid there because we thought that would help. Um, and then a little bit further down the trail, I couldn't keep my eyes open. So I laid down for a one-minute power nap, and that nap was the most rejuvenating thing I've ever experienced. Still to this day, that was the best sleep I've ever gotten. And uh, that was it for that race. So 21 minutes for Moab. Um, and then at Tahoe, which was just one year later, we were trying to take all of these things we had learned at Moab and, you know, paste them into Tahoe and try and execute the 200-mile distance again with all of that knowledge. But I kept laying down for these power naps. Like it was like, oh, we'll try one of those magic power naps, three minutes or two minutes on the clock, you know, whatever. And they never worked. It was just horrible. Like I couldn't sleep at all. I couldn't um then get moving very well at the end. Like it all sort of dominoed into each other. So uh I'm not sure that I really know anything about the sleep game in these.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Sounds like a true experience 200-mile veteran to me.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Yeah. Did you sleep last year?

SPEAKER_01 40:24

The my first year that I did it, I did try to do the standard, like we are gonna sleep at four tut, like we're gonna do the eight station things, and it never worked for me. And so my strategy ever since has just been if I feel any urge mid-section to just lay down, I do it. And I typically that's like the only circumstances where I could ever sleep because otherwise I'm too hyped up or I feel pr pressure, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah. So yeah. Which is a shame because like at Moab, they had the car ready for me. I was, you know, laying flat. I had a little pillow. It was luxury, but couldn't sleep at all. And then you're all with your face in the dirt, and it's like Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

And now I have like two or three uh space blankets, emergency space blankets that have had like one use and now they're worthless.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Um, so you'll get them out to nap.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Yeah, just out of paranoia, honestly, because it's it is typically at nighttime as soon as it goes down, and um it's like, you know, I always end up being like like especially if you're on the Coconino Plateau, it's pretty cold at night. So just like typically I'll fall asleep, but also my pacer might fall asleep too. And it's like, what if we don't wake up and we're just like exposed, you know?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

So try to see. Okay, these are good tips. Yeah, keep them coming.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Things get weird at night, you never know. Um okay, I got it for the gear heads out there. I have to ask some gear questions. Shoes? What show any? Can you talk about the shoes that you're rocking?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

I'm gonna wear shoes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

You're not you're not joining the barefoot crowd.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Not yet. Uh no, I'm gonna probably um be sort of switching between the Solomon Genesis, the S Lab Genesis, the S Lab Ultra Glide, and then the um gravel shoe. I think will find its way in the mix there.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Sweet. Uh any are you testing any gear? Like any packs, any like heat mitigation technology?

SPEAKER_00 42:22

No, not really. Keeping it really simple. Um the pack we've just uh been playing around with adding extra volume and pockets, like for the first section, especially where we have to carry the four liters of water.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Um, and then yeah, just having a little more space for some of that required cold gear over the big miles as well will be helpful. But yeah, otherwise not really testing anything or trying to implement any new ideas. Like, let's just keep it simple and and do what works.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

I always wish they brought to the masses those uh ice hats that I think you and Ryan Sands were at Western States. This would have been seven or eight years ago. Those were so cool.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yeah, it was like the mushroom hats. Yeah. I've still got it. So if you ever need to borrow it, let me know.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Honestly, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Um okay. Uh just a few before we go, a few questions. I have some notes written down here. Because again, we haven't talked since 24. And so this is like old news just in terms of the news cycle, but you signed that deal with Solomon at the end of 24, five years, super cool. In the press release, it mentioned that at the end of the five years, you have this option to like get into mentoring athletes and marketing and product. And like when I read that, I was like, that's super cool. Is that just like boilerplate contract language? Or like, is this something that you actually want to do at the end of the five years?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yeah, it's absolutely something I want to do. I want to be part of this sport for my whole life and um part of this brand that I've been. With since the beginning. So it's really cool. And we don't have like a um, it's not ironed out exactly how it will look or um you know how that will roll out or when it would, but um, it's just a lot of like conversations happening about ideas or um areas of need or areas where I feel like I could be helpful, stuff like that. So right now it's in more the like spitballing stage. Um, but it's very exciting and and I love the people there and I love um the brand and and what they're doing and and I love having a place in this sport and finding a way to keep contributing uh beyond the racing stuff.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Would the mentoring piece be more like coaching a team or you know, being an advisor to athletes that are like in your current position?

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah, I think it it could look many ways, and maybe um it's like dependent on the timing of you know, when this would actually happen, or um, what's happening in the sport right now, or what is happening with this next gen program, or you know, models like that that are starting. So um I'm uh not trying to predict exactly what it might look like at this point, but more just uh lobbing ideas around and um putting them all into a place where then maybe something really uh cool and unexpected could emerge from it.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Awesome. I feel like with your teaching background, you'd probably be like a natural coach.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

I think I mean it would be really cool to um then be able to help the the next group of runners coming up in the sport.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Okay. Uh also in this current contract, if you set aside the classics like Western states, UTMB, hard rock, can you share any specifics on what the rest of your near-term bucket list looks like? Like in the next two to three years, I must do like these two races.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Oh man. I think um what's strange about this question is I have a whole sort of um list, or it's not written like a list though, it's just a lot of ideas scribbled all over a paper. It's not in Kevin Brain version, it's in Courtney Brain version, um, of just like ideas or um races to circle back to, or races I've never done before, or types of challenges I want to find. Um, but I don't know that that I can name just two right now that are on the, you know, in the next two years for sure I'm doing these. I'm not there yet.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Has the delay on Leadville just been because of UTMB and like that has sort of occupied the calendar so much in recent years in hard rock too?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yeah, I think the timing has been just really tricky. There needs to be two Jun, two Julys, two Augusts, two Septembers, two Octobers.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

How about the second half of this year? Is there anything that is penciled in post-Hard Rock?

SPEAKER_00 47:28

There's a lot of ideas for the second half of this year. Um, but my plan right now is to wait until after Coca-Dona and after Hard Rock, see how the two of those go, see how my body is feeling afterwards, and um then sort of make a plan forward with will it be some more ultras, some more, you know, 100 miles or um for sure I'm fitting in a road marathon at some point in the second half of this year. Um yeah, we'll see. I'm also really curious about like gravel bike racing and trying to ride. Well, I mean, just trying to finish one. Like, can I ride a hundred miles on a gravel bike? I don't know. I've never done it. So stuff like that, just adventury stuff is also um on the idea board. But we're gonna wait until July to make some decisions there.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Well, Courtney, thank you so much for the time. Cannot wait to follow your Kokodona experience here in a few weeks. And um, yeah, appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Oh, thank you.