Max Jolliffe: Cocodona 250 Game Plan, Full-Time Pro Life, and a New Travel Show

Max Jolliffe joins the podcast for his third appearance, two weeks out from his return to Cocodona 250. After dropping at mile 238 in 2025 with cellulitis, Max is back for redemption, and this time he's doing it as a full-time professional athlete after leaving Hurley in November following nearly 15 years at the company.

We get into his training block, gear and nutrition strategies, and an upcoming week of course recon out of Mike Versteeg's place in Prescott. Max also walks through his experience at the BPN Backyard Ultra in the Texas hill country and makes the case for why the backyard format deserves more attention from the sport's top names.

Other topics:

• How 15 years in graphic design and apparel at Hurley shapes the value he brings to brand partners beyond race results
• Why race merch across the sport is a missed opportunity and what needs to change
• His new travel show concept, Weekend Training Camp, and the Salt Lake City pilot he's editing now
• When he stopped idolizing effortless talent and started respecting visible work, and how that shift rewired what he looks for in athletes
• Why he doesn't actually love racing and what draws him to multi-day events and backyard ultras instead
• Time goal for Cocodona, day-one pacing philosophy, and why he's staying off the front early
• Prize money at 200s and why the math might need to change

Partners:

• Precision Fuel and Hydration - use code SINGLETRACK at checkout for 15% off your next order
• Norda - check out the 005: the lightest, fastest, most stable trail racing shoe ever made
• Raide - Making equipment for efficient human-powered movement in the mountains 
• Janji - premium trail running apparel
• Kodiak Cakes - my favorite oatmeal and pancakes 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

All right, welcome back or welcome to the Single Track Podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and in this episode, Max Jolliffe returns to the show, this time two weeks ahead of the 2026 Kogodona 250. We spend a bit of time at various parts in the conversation talking about his preparation, his race here last year. I was thinking about race strategy this year, all that good stuff, gear, you know, nutrition. But we also talk on a bunch of other topics. He was just at the BPN Backyard Ultra last weekend, so we get his take, um, you know, his takeaways from that experience pretty interesting. We get into apparel design talk. Uh he just quit his job at Hurley. He was there for 15 years. He's now a full-time professional athlete in Trails. We talk a bit about that. Uh yeah, it's quite wide-ranging. Um yeah, I mean, this is this is part of our ongoing Cocodona 250 coverage. We just had Courtney on the show last week. Uh, Leah, Brett, and I will be doing a preview episode of Cocodona later this week. We'll be back on the mics post-event for a recap. Yeah, we we love Cocodona. It's a great time of year. I do want to get to a point in time where we're treating this event with the same level of focus, hype, dedication, etc., as we do for Western states and uh and UTMB. And yeah, before we get started, you'll notice at the outset, we sort of cold open. Max entered the recording room, the conversation was kind of already flowing, and I just I was like, hey, listen, let's just hit record, let's just start. And so you'll kind of notice that the conversation is uh it's it starts mid-flow, but um, yeah, it goes from there. So, anyways, uh let us know what you think. Shoot us a comment on the YouTube video of this episode or a DM on Instagram. Always love to hear from y'all. And uh yeah, thank you, Max.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I feel like I'm in decent shape right now. Yeah. Uh been uh been putting in quite a few months of like pretty solid volume and mileage leading up into Kokodona, which is I guess how we should kick off this this episode. We're ooh, just two weeks away from Cocodona.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Let's go, baby. Dude, this is something that I didn't know. So I I just I read the press release for your new partnership with Koros. Yeah, and there was a little bit in there. It's you said that you felt like last year you were a bit overtrained heading into Cocodona. Like the sickness, yes, but also maybe even a bit overtrained. So how do you distinguish between because you you're you're a high mileage guy, right? And you race a fair up fairly often. So how do you distinguish?

SPEAKER_01 2:27

I don't know. I I maybe I'm I'm just feeling more adapted to the higher volume just being a year later and just have been consistently training. But uh yeah, I don't know. It's weird. I I I have technically done more running miles this year for the for the block into Coca-Dona, but last year I was like kind of injured going into it. Uh, so I was doing these big bike rides. So I'd do like 130, 120 to 130 miles a week of running. And then I mean, I dude, I did like 160 mile bike ride one of my weeks last um last build. So I was like pretty consistently hitting 24 uh hours of training per week, which now this year I think is a little bit dialed back into like the kind of 18 to 20, 21 hour range. So I like I'm I'm doing a little bit less, even though I am doing kind of a bit more running, and then like less less focus on vert. I like I really don't think I mean I'm running trails, I I am running vert, but I think hitting 30,000 feet of vert in a week is kind of pointless for Coca-Dona. Like you just need to be able to run 10 minute miles on flat for forever, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Interesting. And you and it sounds like you're excited. Like two weeks out. We're recording this on Monday, April 20th. And you sound excited.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah, I'm fired up. I'm actually supposed to um, so my van is actually at the shop right now. Um, getting, I I got this like rooftop tent for it. So my mechanic just needs to strap it down, and then uh he's putting in like a new blower for my air conditioner. It just went out. It's like everything on that old van is just dies on me at random. So uh yeah, I'm actually gonna go pick it up and then head straight out to Arizona for about a week, five, five to seven days of uh training. I'm just gonna drive out to Verstig's house and just park it in the driveway and uh do some recon on the course over the next week or so. Yeah. Wait, so where does Verstig live? Is it is it Prescott?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Like I thought he was in the boonies kind of like where is he?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Uh he's like just out. I mean, he's probably two miles outside of that little downtown Prescott area, the whiskey row area. So he's he's right there in a in a little neighborhood right there. His he's got a cool little compound. It's like there, I I mean I I haven't been there in God, probably over a year, but there's like a school bus in the back that's been converted that people can sleep in, and like this old shed that he's converted into like a music studio, and then his house is was kind of halfway through being uh renovated the last time I was there, and a mini ramp in the backyard, it's like like paradise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Okay, so when we're tangenting, but like when uh we had Dylan Harris on the podcast, this would have been a year or two ago when they were debuting the chase. He said that one of his favorite stops on the interview tour was Vers Diggs' house. Yeah. And apparently he collects all these coffee mugs, so he got to choose from like a bajillion different coffee mugs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

There was like a clo there's like a climbing wall and a chicken cook. I every time I go to Mike's house, it's like there's some new setup. Like he might have a sauna and like maybe a hot tub now. I I actually think I heard he might actually have a hot tub, but might be a whole new skate ramp. Like, who knows? Yeah, you never really still building out the half pipe area. I mean, I th I think he's always kind of working on working on his his house. I mean, it changes every time I go there, so I'm looking forward to whatever I'm gonna, whatever I'm gonna see. But yeah, I was just planning on just parking my van and uh hanging with him for a couple days and having him um kind of take me around. I know he just uh he just won the whiskey basin 91k smoked it a few days ago, yeah. So uh he Mike's looking like he's fit and in good shape and has been training. So uh hopefully, yeah, he's uh hopefully I can, you know, we can get some miles and some recon out there. Um I got some gear testing that I need to do, a little bit of shoe testing, um, just kind of like the final stages and hopefully uh fast walk or slow jog around with a with a heavy pack on my back.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Are you gonna be using, are you gonna be testing any of the that new heat gear that you were teasing on Rich's podcast from Satisfy?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah. Yeah, I mean I've I've been wearing that stuff. I love it. So I was already, I was already kind of planning on wearing some of that stuff for Coca-Dona. Um, so I don't really have any testing for that stuff to do. But uh yeah, just trying to figure out, you know, sock and foot care options, just make sure everything's dyed. Like I always, always, always struggle with um with just getting like really just shredded feet. So uh yeah, figuring out like, do I need to wear gators? Do I need to pre-tape my toes? Do I need to, you know, I'm I'm kinda in the final stages of figuring out exactly uh exactly what I want to do.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

What is your best guess right now at what's gonna work for your feet on race day? Like what's the shoe rotation? You mentioned possibly gators, because I yeah, I know this this has been an issue for you at Moab. It's been an issue for you at Mammoth, Kokodona.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I uh so I've found that I I really need to keep my feet dry more than anything. Um I've I've come to find out that I have kind of sweaty feet, um, which is kind of strange because I'm like not a super heavy sweater, but for heavy sweater, but for whatever reason, my feet just get like, I don't know, like maybe I just have bad genetics with my skin or something too. But uh I think my skin just gets really soft um being kind of sweaty and wet. So uh do using using powders to keep my feet and toes dry inside of toe socks, I think has been the the best solution that I've found so far. And then like pre-taping problem areas that I that I usually have. So like pinky toe, big toe, uh just make making sure I pre-tape that. And then like keeping my feet clean and washed and dry, I think is the is gonna be what uh gets me through Cocodona without having uh major catastrophic foot issues, which is like what plagues me every single one of these uh 200s. Like it's freezing in me because there's like people out there that just don't really don't really struggle with foot issues. I like I don't I don't really get it. I think which make makes me believe like maybe it is kind of genetic. Like I think I just have like non-elastic skin. Like I think it might have to do with the elasticity of your skin or something, but uh yeah, there's a lot of people who just kind of seem to breeze through it in just normal socks and will get maybe get a blister, but I'm like, dude, every single one of my toenails is falling off. I got blisters everywhere. It's like my skin's like falling. It's like I yeah, it's just bad.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

So dude, you know what I did, and it really sucks because they always under the doctors, in my opinion, always underplay how long the recovery time's gonna be. They always think you're gonna be like doing shit again like three days after, but I got my toenails removed.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Oh yes, dude. Jimmy was.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Well, it's terrible. I mean, the first month is brutal, like and they're they're not gonna tell to you straight, but it's brutal. Like it's like a phantom pain for like a month, and it also it like if it's the big toe, it's gonna be even longer. I did the uh the two toes on either foot next to the big toe, so like the longer ones, and it's it's been a game changer for me. But not your big toe. I'm too scared. Oh I w and I wish I had done them all at once because now that I know the pain, I don't want to get the rest of them done. Right. But if you can just do it all, just do it, and if you can do it, do it right after Cocodona. And that way, do it while you're mixed again recovery. And I think it's a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

I kind of need to just recover as quick as possible because I'm going kind of straight into badwater training, which I'm already kind of trying to do double duty for uh for heat training, getting ready for Kokodona. So that's another thing I've I've been doing like a ton of heat training. I was actually out in Austin at that BPN Ultra, which we'll talk more about, I'm sure. But uh Nick's got this like barn gym like right on the ranch property, uh, that's just like this super sick kit decked out gym, everything you can imagine in there. So I was just going in there and doing two hour runs on the treadmill with my bootleg Amazon Tyvek heat suit that I'd just uh have been have had, you know, waiting to get into all this heat training. So I was doing sessions in there in the hot barn. I mean, it's hot, you know, probably 80 or 90 degrees in the barn, and then just like sweating it out, uh, really, really getting into it for uh for heat training. Yeah, it was it was fun. God, being out there was such a cool experience. Man, that was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Wait a second, okay. I want to hear about like let's actually let's break it down in a couple ways. Uh, first, because again, I'm just thinking about a lot of the people that listen to this podcast, and I mean this in a positive way, they're sort of like establishment fans. Like they are so like true to Western states and hard rock and UTMB. And I think that they might need to be pitched and maybe even convinced on the merits of like this BPN Ultra. So, like if you're pitching to this audience, like talk about what you see as the magic here, what impressed you, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Oh man. Um God, it's like how how do I how do I sell someone on like how awesome and rad that race is? Um, I think you get all of the best aspects of like a traditional um trailer ultra race, like the like the community and just having everyone in the entire race all in the same area at the same time, and then the crews just all getting to intermingle. I mean, day one is like it's almost like a party or like some kind of festival. Like, you know, there's food trucks and uh I think the only thing they were really missing was like music, but uh yeah, just having all the tents set up. It's like tent row, uh walking through, seeing everybody's uh setups and uh everyone's saying hi, and it's just like totally good vibes, and then the race starts and everyone heads off. And um yeah, day one, it's just you know, you're watching this huge crowd of people, and slowly, you know, six hours in, eight hours in, people start dropping off, and then you know, it starts to night starts to come, and then it's it's almost like being at a multi-day music festival. Um, and then by the end, there's really just nobody left. Um, so I I I don't know. I thought that was like a pretty cool experience. And then that that area in Texas, like the I I guess they call it hill country, like you're just like out in an hour outside of Austin in kind of no man's land out in these just like beautiful green ranch uh ranch properties. And uh yeah, this race is just I don't know. I and I think the BPN team just probably does a better, like one of the best jobs ever of documenting um a race. So like what you see is really how it feels there. Um the uh like I don't know if you were following, but just like the Instagram. Oh yeah uh yeah, the Instagram lives on every loop, which I thought was kind of cool. I would love if they just had a live stream just broadcasted the entire time. I think that's like maybe the next level up of the live stream. And um, I I know their their team is very uh very good, and I think they're kind of particular about what they what they want the race to be as far as like a um from a media standpoint. So um yeah, it was it was just really, really cool. And then seeing like, you know, the two former champions from last year, uh Kim and Kendall. Um Kim, I was like kind of helping crew him, and then uh Harvey Lewis was there throwing down, I mean, former world record holder, um, and then Mark Dowdle, just absolute monster. Man, that guy is so, so impressive. Just and then the other thing too about the backyard style race is it's so mental, and there's so much more strategy that goes into a race like that that you wouldn't expect. Like, uh, like like how you have to present yourself as I'm in good shape when really you're dying on the inside, and then your other competitors that are you know dying as well, like they're trying to not show any weakness. So it's this weird, like kind of mental mind game, especially on days two and three, um, w when there's really only a couple people left. And then the other really, really cool thing that I that I uh about that format, just the backyard in general, is in order for it to go all the way, you need someone to go with you. So, like Harvey was, I think the entire time with probably the last 20 guys, was trying to help these people along and giving everybody all kinds of advice. And it was like it's it's really not even a race, it's uh it's a last man standing. So the I don't know, I just thought that was really cool how you're yes, you're competing against someone, but you kind of need them if you want to keep the race going. So uh yeah, that was like a really cool thing. And then like seeing people like that guy, Mikey and the dude in the wheelchair. I mean, that was just like, dude, one of the one of the coolest things I've ever seen a human being do in my entire life. Like that guy just blew me away. I didn't even, I wasn't even expecting to see something like that at the race. And like I show up and I'm like, holy crap, a dude in a wheelchair is running this race? Like, what? Insane. And um, yeah, it just sucks that the uh little spout of uh rain and bad weather kind of took him out, caused mud on the course. Dude, it was like it gave me flashbacks to Kokadona last year because they were going through just so much mud. The the mud bricks on the bottom of their feet on their shoes. I was like, oh my god, that's like exactly what we went through at Cokedona. So yeah, it was it was chaos. Um, it was just amazing, just such a cool event, dude. I like you really have to be there um to experience it. And I'm like, I'm 100% in for next year. I like after being there, I was like, Oh really? Yeah, have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Okay, I took a bunch of notes here from what you said. The first thing, I and I know you know this, so you can speak to it. And in other races in our sport are doing a decent job of this, they're investing it increasingly, but it's cool how this event basically makes careers overnight. Yeah. I'm guessing, I don't know if it's already happened, but I'm I'm guessing if Mark Dowdle wants to go all in on trail running, ultra running, backyard stuff, like yeah, overnight his career was just made by this event.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

100%. And like I I think I saw a video of him, like he was he was posting that he was uh learning how to like wash windows because he was like gonna go back and have like do a seasonal window washing job. I'm like, bro, you made it. Like you're not gonna have to, you're not gonna have to do that. You're there's gonna be people wanting to sign you left and right. And I think he grew it, not that like social media numbers like really matter, but I think he grew maybe fit 40 or 50.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

He was 65. He's almost at 100 now.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Okay, so like 60,000 Instagram followers overnight. Dude, I think the BPN channel grew like almost a hundred thousand followers just from everyone's women presenting the race, you know, and like putting out the coverage and documenting it. And uh yeah, it was it's kind of a bummer to see uh just bad takes online by people who just like really don't understand what's going on there and what the race is, and just trying to throw shade at it for no reason. Like, I can't stand um that kind of stuff. But uh it's like it's a legitimate, it's a legitimate race, it's a Biggs backyard world championship qualifier race. Like there it like it's and there's probably more eyes on it than the Biggs backyard world championship. So, you know, there it is.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

What was like a frequently occurring negative comment that you would want to respond to?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Um I don't even I don't even know. Just like the that the you know, the race, like they're posting all this stuff for just Instagram followers and for attention. It's like any brand activation is it's a brand activation, it's an event, it's a race. You're gonna you're gonna post about it, you're gonna document it. Like why are you why are people getting upset that a brand is like present like hosting a race, like doing what they're supposed to? I I don't know. It's like one of those things. You're you're never gonna be able to please everyone, and but there's gonna be people that hate on anything for any reason. It's yeah, it's I I think it's just silly. But um, after being there, it was just a really, really awesome experience. And I hope that more of the bigger names in our sport will actually want to dip their toes into this race. And I don't know, I actually, so I don't know if I told you this, but one of the BPN guys leading into the race maybe six months ago was like, Yeah, dude, there's a UTMB winner who's like showed interest in running this race. And I'm like, who? And one of the media guys, he's like, I don't know. I it was some guy, some guy he just won UTMB. I'm like, Tom Evans? And he was like, Yeah, I think that's him. But dude, there's no, I was like, there's no way Tom Evans is trying to run the BPN backyard race. And this was, you know, six months ago when they had just released the film from last year's race. And um I like I would show I would show you the video on my on my phone on the screen, but I think Tom's email is in it. But I I asked the BPN uh media guy, I was like, show me the DM that says, How do I sign up for this race? And I guess for a minute, Tom Evans was signed up for the Backyard Ultra. So like I I hope we see, you know, I think Courtney would absolutely dominate a backyard race. Um who like I mean, anyone like Dan Green, anyone who's won a 200, Michael McNight, like all of these guys who have just Killian Korth, like this, like all of these people, I think would be so, so good at the backyard um format. And I think it's one of the fastest, probably one of the fastest growing categories of ultra running. And um, for people who want to host races, it's like kind of the easiest race to host. All you really need is a little private property somewhere that you can get 4.2 miles on and you can essentially just run this thing, no permits. Um or maybe you do need permits. I I don't know anything about the race directing kind of side of it, but uh I think the backyard race format is uh rapidly, rapidly growing. And we're gonna see it really take off.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

From the yeah, from the spectating that you did out there, did you get the sense that most people were quitting because of their minds or because like their health was on the line?

SPEAKER_01 20:57

I think I think more so oh it's so tough because like if you're you know in the in the final 25 or 30 guys, like you're looking at dudes like Mark and Harvey, and you're maybe let's say a day and a half in, so you're around the 150 mile mark, and you're looking at these guys going, they're gonna be out here for two more days. I think that mentally just a lot of people, they're like, I'm not, I'm not gonna make it. Like, I might as well just be done now, you know? So I think for a lot of people mentally you kind of check out when you might have quite a few more more loops in you. But towards the end, I mean, dude, seeing these guys at the end, like going 250, 300 miles, 300 plus miles, you're like, every loop, you're like, are they gonna make it? Are they gonna make it? They're coming in with 30 seconds left and taking off for another, like it's there's at the end, there's so much drama and so much like stuff happening. It's like so, so intense. And um, Yeah, it was just like a crazy experience to to be there and and witness the whole thing. And like the final lap that uh Mark ended up winning, like Kendall's coming in, dude. He maybe just missed the corral by five or ten seconds. I did see that.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

That was crazy. He was sprinting.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah, it was it was crazy. And then yeah, it's there's like so many like little nuances to the court, like how they how they run the course too, like walk, walk, run intervals, or how quickly do you want to do a lap if you want to uh sleep for a little bit? And all of these guys are doing these like little micro naps, like they would come in and just lay down for three minutes and get back up and go out like zombies towards the end. It's like come in, lay down, grab their bottles, and off they went again. It was like it was it was sick. It was so sick.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

I'm wondering, like, especially for you next year, super exciting that you're racing. I I would imagine, and again, let me know if you think this is a good strategy. I almost feel like going into the event, you would have to make a pact with yourself where it's like, regardless of who's in the field, I'm committing to like this many days out there. Yeah, and then I'll start evaluating like my body, my mind, all that. It's like I'm no matter what happens, no matter the weather, I'm going at least four days. And then we'll start to like think about things after four days.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah, yeah, totally. That's and like the other thing too is I was watching Mark, how he was running that race, and on day one, he's the last person to leave the corral, just so chill, walking. It almost seemed like every time I'd see him, he'd be walking. I'm like, is he even running out there? And I, you know, however, he's just he's just so dialed with how he runs the loops and strategy behind it. Like, if you're someone who's trying to get good at the backyard or learn from someone, like watch how, or maybe he had he has some videos out there about his his strategy, but I was watching him the whole time and I was like, damn, that dude is dialed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Okay. You're kind of talking about it here, and you definitely mentioned it in the rich interview. This was new to me, and I know we've talked a bunch online, offline, but you said in the rich interview, I don't actually like racing that much. And for me, it's more about like finishing hard things, the potential side of things. That sounds like why this backyard stuff is so interesting to you. You talked about Barkley in the in the Rich interview. Um, has that always been your way? Or has that been something that you've had to realize as you've gotten into this sport?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's it's it's weird because winning, winning does always feel good. Like it's a validation for the hard work that you put in. Um, but as far as like going into the races, like I I don't know. I I think the the backyard is like definitely a new kind of challenge or a new thing that's just like I've discovered now. And uh there's probably no better way to than to run a distance PR. Like if you want to run 400 miles, I think the backyard is probably the best place to do it. Um, other than if you have like some long trail like route FKT that you'd like to attempt or do. Um, but I think like I don't know, yeah. I I never really look forward to like the competition or even like like beating people, like doesn't really I don't know, I don't get a lot of like satisfaction or like uh happiness from like, oh, I like beat that person or I passed that person out on out on the course. Um I almost tend to feel like sometimes if I'm like passing people, I'm like, I kind of feel bad for that person, like they're not having a good race or something. Like I don't know, maybe I'm it's just the the racing itself isn't uh that that fun for me. I I more so enjoy like going from Phoenix to Flagstaff, like supported, you know, and if I'm able to do good, then that's great. Um, or if it's you know running through the San Gabriels in a you know a the AC 100, like a race in my backyard, like I look out my window right here and I can see the mountains in the distance, like being able to complete that race is like or just do do something that you know I'm I'm looking at every single day. I'm like, that's that's cool. I I love the adventure, I love the challenge, but as far as like competing against other people, I just like I'm never really it just like doesn't get me excited. It's more so the the challenge itself.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

I I can say just having been there with you in person for so many miles of Cocodona last year, I could see it.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Uh you know, just bummed I'm bummed that you're not running, dude. I was like, I know, dude.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

I mean, dude, you got me through you got me through day one and day two in a lot of ways. Like just through. I know, but like, dude, surviving the Brad track, like what we again, I it's almost like what you would, I'm sure you would come across if you were in these like multi-person expeditions like Shackleton and Antarctica or whatever. Right. Um, like there's a bond that you get in these multi-day, multi-week events with the competition, the other runners. It's it really is in a lot of ways trauma bonding. Like, I'm still shaking my head that like we made it to like Mount Union and Camp Kippah in one piece and like got back down to Whiskey Row and like were able to change out gears, you know what I mean? So I I I yeah, I can see I also think that these multi-day events um they just humble you totally. And and it's hard to be, even in retrospect, be competitive about it after the fact. I I find it very difficult to be comp even though I love competition, I find it very hard to think about these things in terms of wanting to beat another person more than like just surviving the course.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

You know, if you're doing the multi-day stuff, I think I think a primary motivation is always gonna be the challenge and the distance and the adventure over the competition. I mean, I'm never looking at any of these races going, okay, who's gonna be here? Um, who am I racing against? It's more so like, dude, a loop around, you know, Lake Tahoe, like Tahoe 200, like that sounds like really epic and cool. Or Tour de Jance is like that, you know, like traveling 200 miles through the Alps and like that, the Shamne area, like that's sick. You know what I mean? Like, I want to experience those things. I don't want to experience the competition. I'm I'm I'm there for the challenge, I'm there for the adventure. And what's crazy about a lot of these dudes who are like are really establishing themselves in the backyard format, dude. I want to see Mark Dowdle at uh, you know, at Cocodona or at Moab or any of these races. Like, I know the dude can go to the distance. Like, yeah, I want to now see these guys, and I think some of them, I'm pretty sure, maybe Kim and Kendall, maybe just I know Kim for sure, I believe, is doing Moab in October. So seeing these guys dip their dip their toes into the the world of uh trail 200s is like that's really cool too. You know, I th I think the people who are good at the the multi-day stuff are just gonna be good at either one, you know, if it's backyard or if it's uh you know a point-to-point or a loop trail event. I think uh the the skill set that you need to be able to go for multiple days like applies really well to both.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

If you had to reflect on the people that you admire or respect the most in the sport, are most of them in sort of like the adventure racing side of things? Or is it also people that are just like getting after it and setting new times and winning?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

I mean, yes, uh, yes, you know, like Michael McKnight, like just the the domination that he had in the 200s in the early days, you know, uh and then like I mean, Killian Core, Dan Green, like I I admire all of these people who are I mean, even Courtney in the in the 200s, uh probably I admire them just as much as like a Jim or a Killian or a Tom or whoever, like people who are running just unthinkable, or like Caleb Olsen at Western States. Like anyone who's who's doing these really tough challenges is I'm like, I'm into them, you know. Uh I it doesn't really matter to me if it's you know running a 200 that's technically slow or running the fastest 100 mile on flat ever. I I think it's all kind of relative, and you can't, it's hard to really compare any one performance against another, but uh no, I I'm not like only looking up to people in the 200 space. It's like it's everyone at every distance. I mean, dude, like Clayton Young, just uh we're a friend of mine who I actually got to hang out with when I was staying in Salt Lake, uh, like hugely inspired by that guy. I mean, he dude, he just ran a PR at Boston this morning. 205. 205, yeah. Crazy, dude, coming off an injury. Like, I mean, it's it's not a win or you know, uh an American best, but it's like still someone that I see doing something like really awesome coming off an injury, like friend of mine. Like that's that stuff fires me up. I mean, that's a road marathon. Like I'm I'm I take inspiration and I look up to all kinds of people in all aspects of running. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Okay. In the rich interview, you said that there was a shift at some point in your career or earlier in life, the people that you gravitated towards or you had you were inspired by, they made it look easy. And there's been a shift, and now it's the people who are just like, it's messy, they're trying hard, they're committed, and like you said, maybe not getting like the the result, but they're just like in the trenches. Yeah. When did that shift happen?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

I think, I think maybe when I started running and training and like really applying myself to putting in the work to get good at this thing that I really wasn't very good at, which was running. Um, I think I I kind of finally realized that you can get really far with like little to no talent just off of hard work. And like to me, that's something that I found a lot of value in. And I kind of like really started to respect the people who weren't as naturally gifted and kind of just had to work really hard to get where they were. Like that, I I think it was just learning myself learning about hard work made me respect it so much more and like really admire the people who um who just like worked really hard for their their goals and their achievements, and they really didn't come easy to them, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Did you ever do you know the term stease?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Stees, yeah, yeah. Style, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

I I come I come from the skiing world and in in like the skiing world it was stees, like style and ease. Like you you had style and you made it look easy. So I when I heard you say that on rich, I was like, I know exactly where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Um, so was it like the skaters? Were the skaters sort of like representing that?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah, I mean, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of skaters out there, and um yeah, it's like you almost don't see the the hard I I mean I I know all of those guys work really hard. Um and you don't really see a lot of like the battles those guys go through to get tricks. And like the the first try is always like super glorified in skateboarding, like oh, I did it first try, which um I don't want to like name any names, but there's like a lot of skaters who just like they can do anything first try. And to like back then, I when I was younger, I used to think like God, you're you're just like you're just incredible if you're that good and able to do everything first try. But now I like I see that and I'm like, I want to see the dude battling super hard to just land like the stupid little kickflip, which is like me now, you know, like I can bear I can barely do any tricks anymore. But uh that like just kind of the same thing applies to running. I just like now I just value um hard work and like really failure and like a lot of times failure over and over until you finally do succeed. Um, which uh yeah, I hope hopefully I will uh maybe I'll fail at Coca-Dona a bunch more times. I mean, it's like the only race that I haven't, well, I it's the only race I've I haven't finished, so I guess failure in that way. But uh yeah, I've like failed a bunch of my races, even though like they may be okay performances, but like to me, pretty much every single 200 I've ran has been like somewhat of a failure. Like I just have not had a good race yet, which I've kind of mentioned a couple times before, but I'm waiting, I'm waiting for a good one. I think I'm due.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Before I forget, uh, tell me where you and Verstega are gonna recon on the Kokodona course. Will it be around like the Bradshaws? Where are you gonna go?

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Um, I well, that's like the closest to his house. So we'll probably do some stuff in there. I really want to do the uh the climb out of Sedona, I forget what it's called.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Hangover trail. We did that, dude. We you and I did that in the craziest conditions.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

In the middle of like dense foggy clouds out of dude, that was oh my god. And that's when my my shins, like I had no foot flexion or mobility. So essentially my feet were like stuck. I couldn't move my foot up or down. Like Matt Shapiro pretty much had to like and not not carry me, but there were points where I'd be like on all fours trying to climb up these rocks. I'm like, Matt, give me a hand, I'm gonna fall. Um, so it was yeah, it was it was rough uh going through that section at night. So I I'd really like to do that again and get familiar because all of that slick rock too is kind of difficult to navigate at night. Um, so I'd like to do that. And then I got all the way to the base of Eldon, so I'd like to go up and over Eldon um at least once before the race. Um, but yeah, uh most of the other stuff is just like pretty easy, mellow, non-technical, just long drawn-out dirt roads.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Maybe the maybe uh granite dells too, because that was at night.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah, well, I'm pretty familiar with the dells because I've I I've ran saddles, I've I kind of go out there every year for the race. So I like I I was that was the only section of all of Coca Dona that I already knew going into the race. So I was like, once I saw the dells, I was like, oh, I know where I am. Like this is like I I feel like I'm kind of okay and like I know where I'm going for this very small little section. And then um, what's the what's the satisfy aid station uh Fane Round? Yeah, I know that area likes okay, but everything else was like brand new to me. I'd never seen before. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Um more on Coca-Dona in a minute. When you were in Salt Lake back at the end of March, we went on our run together, fantastic. And I know you just left your job at Hurley, which you were at for like 15 years, and I think you described it as sort of like that was your like basically like your college education. Like you learned storytelling, branding, apparel design, like soup to nuts, just amazing. Yeah. Um, and you're like, talk about what you're bringing from that job into this role now as like you're a full-time professional athlete, you're a full-time content creator, like this is what you're doing for your livelihood.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Yeah. So I, yeah, I just like I really stumbled into that job. Um, I I had gotten sober in 2012, um, just got out of jail, just getting sober. Um, I end up, you know, in these AA meetings and meeting a bunch of new people for the first time. And uh I meet this this guy who becomes a really good friend of mine. He works at Hurley at the time, which back then, uh 2012, 2013, Hurley was a category of Nike. So we were essentially the Nike Surf Company. So there was like Nike SB, which was Nike skateboarding, and then Hurley was Nike Surfing. So um I started working like pretty much just like sweeping floors um at the place. And uh, you know, I was kind of just hanging around, like getting getting paid like pretty much minimum wage to just hang out and kind of help my buddy with doing like little chores around like he was an artist. So he was uh God, he did so many different things, but he was a designer and artist, uh, worked for the marketing department. So I I started like getting brought onto these like little projects here and there. And actually, funny enough, I I've done like quite a few like Nike events. Um, I like I remember like the Nike uh Vapor Max release or something. Like we went up to LA and did this whole event production. And I've done like if you go to the Nike Santa Monica store and you go in the changing rooms, there's like wheat paste all over the walls, which like me and a couple of coworkers of mine like went out there and like did all these retail store build-outs. So I've like, I was like part of the Nike organization um for a bunch of years, and I wore a bunch of hats at the company over the years from marketing, doing events. Uh, I I did a lot of like screen printing, so screen printing t-shirts, um, screen printing like art prints and posters. Um, and then that my kind of like background or like learning how to do that kind of led me into the graphic design world. So I started doing graphic design at the company. This is all over a 15-year period. So I was kind of just bouncing around, ended up on the graphic design team, was doing t-shirts and like uh board short prints for a while, and then eventually transitioned from that onto like the cut and sew apparel design team. And I did that for a handful of years until I just finally quit. So I just like learned so many different things being a part of a really big brand and a really big organization. And I've kind of just like tried to apply a lot of that same stuff to my my now my own personal brand and that that I'm like trying to create. And I just really love making apparel, like making clothes and hats and t-shirts. So that's like just fun for me to do. So it's almost a no-brainer. Like anytime I'm doing one of these films, you know, making a cool hat or a cool t-shirt to go along with it. And then, you know, there's a lot of value that I can bring to brands, not only being uh very knowledge and versed with just apparel design, like I can tell you, like, hey, this is you know, a product that you have now, I would do it like this, which would maybe make it better. Or like, hey, I have an idea for this hot weather gear. Like, you know, why don't we make this, this, or this? And then, you know, there's there's a lot of value in that, um, which I think uh, you know, someone who's not like winning Western states or winning UTMB, like I can provide a lot of value to a brand outside of the traditional podium finish at race X, Y, or Z. So I I I know that I'm valuable in that way. So I'm trying to do a lot of different things to uh just like build my own personal brand. I love doing collabs, like even with like small little company. Like my friend has a brand, he makes like hats and stuff. So doing cool little collabs and events with him, or if it's you know, designing a sunglass with maybe this other brand, or maybe it's like I just love designing stuff. I'm very product obsessed, even like from like a nutrition and uh like racing standpoint and other like other random stuff, gear. Like, I'm just like such a gear product nerd that I'm like kind of selfishly, all of these brands that I'm a part of, I'm like, yeah, I want you guys to like make this stuff for me so I can like have access to this stuff. So um, yeah, that's just kind of like I guess a roundabout uh way of talking about like what just like what I'm trying to do with a lot of these like brand partners that I have now.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

I feel like I don't really have the vocabulary for this, so you might need to like kind of get a sixth sense of what I'm asking here. But like I don't know what I don't know in the apparel space, but I've always wanted to get the sense of like are there any areas in apparel design and delivery to the consumer that these brands typically cut corners on that like we wouldn't know about because we don't know what we don't know, but like you as a product designer, you as someone that thinks in terms of brand, like if you were to start your own brand, here are some things that I would do that I should I should think would like bring like a ton of value to the consumer, but like it's just such a practice in the industry to like cut a corner here, like use this supply, not the best supplier or whatever. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah. Um, it's like it's so tough because for for one, I would I would never want to like a clothing brand. Like that sounds like such a Herculean monumental undertaking. Like I like I just like making little one-off t-shirts and stuff. Like, I almost it's really easy for me to not commit to something like huge, like building a brand, like building a brand is the hardest part. But I don't know, I think a lot of times it's like just knowing who your consumer is, I I think is really important and something that maybe a lot of brands are a little bit out of touch with. Um, and then like something that I always value is like I would much rather pay more money for better stuff that's gonna last longer. And um just with the way that consumerism and capitalism is like maximizing profits and making, you know, stuff for as cheaply as possible. And who cares if it only lasts 10 washes, like whatever, you know, I I I think um that's just like a flaw that every industry is gonna have. But um, yeah, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

It's are there are there better materials out there that aren't being used in our space yet?

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Um, see, I'm so I'm not super versed with like really technical fabrics. Like the so the company that I worked for was like a real like not totally fast fashion, but we like we were stuck trying to make the best clothes we could with the cheapest kind of fabrics, like using Cordura fabrics or like anything that was like technical. Like think of like any fabric that satisfies uses. Like I never even saw those things, like anything that was over$2 a yard was like pretty much like out of my budget to make a pant or to make a woven top out of. So I like I I never really like I don't really know what what is out there, but I know there is like maybe a ton of uh new tech and new innovation uh that's always happening within apparel. And I think a lot of it you see the you know, the the the bigger brands are kind of at the forefront of it. Like Nike's like if you look at any of one of Nike's like new most pinnacle technical shoe fabrics or outdoor gear fabric, like I think they're probably using some of the best stuff out there. But then, you know, there's like I like I love organic, like cott like organic cotton t shirts or merino wool. Like that, that's like really nice Japanese merino wool. Like you can't really beat that. Um, so it's just like using using the best fabrics uh out there to uh for and then the the other thing too is uh designing designing a product and knowing what the intended use is. Like I I feel like a lot of times like a brand might just like make a windbreaker and it's like, okay, well, what like what is this windbreaker for? Is it for this type of conditions or terrain or like is it need does it need to be packable? I I think a lot of people like will just design a a piece without really knowing or in having any intention for it. I think designing with intention is really important. Um yeah, and uh I yeah, there's there's I mean, there's so much in the world of innovation and design and product and uh apparel. It's like it's it's moved so fast. I mean, I've I've been removed for three or four months, or maybe longer for five months now. And um, yeah, there's probably a bunch of stuff that I don't even know. I mean, it was like almost on a weekly basis, we'd be meeting with vendors from China that had mills and factories and all kinds of it's just like it's constant.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

I'll just say this, and uh, I partly want to just put this out in the universe for anyone listening that wants to go build it, but uh being in the event space, one of the things that we want to improve on for our consumers is just like better race shirts because we've all been in these at these races where like the event is amazing, but the shirt that you get is just throwaway, you know, like it it it's it's it's really a huge bummer and it's obviously a waste.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Like what happened if you go if you go on eBay and like look up like any kind of vintage race shirt from like the early nine late 80s, early 90s, like they're all so sick. Like we need to get back to that just the regular. What happened? I I don't know. I I think the brands come in, you know, big brands sponsor uh like Adidas or ASICs or Brooks or whoever will sponsor like a big race, and they just provide like the technical race shirt. And it's like I I don't ever want to wear uh like a technical, like I want to wear my my race shirts like just casually. Like I don't want to wear like some Nike Tech shirt for like just every day when I'm like going to the grocery store. Like I just want like a plain cotton tee that fits well, that has a cool graphic on it. Like that's that's all it takes. Like people just need to make go back to just cotton t-shirts with good fitting cotton t-shirts. Like, you know, if you want to look at like what all the modern kind of trending stuff now, it's like usually kind of shorter, wider t-shirts, um, like doing a garment die on the t-shirt so it looks kind of old and vintage and soft. Like people usually really love that. And they're just like paying 500 bucks or a thousand bucks to a cool artist to do a cool piece of art for your t-shirt. It's like that's a no-brainer. And then if you have really cool merch, like people will come run your race just because you have good merch. Like, it's I don't know. I I think people are starting to catch on. And I actually saw a video of some artist who was doing the t-shirts for I think it was maybe San Francisco Marathon. And I was like, oh, that's sick. Like this guy is a you know an artist that's been contracted by San Francisco Marathon. He's making like showing his process on how he makes the show. I'm like, that's what we need. Like every race should focus on making a cool t-shirt to go along with the race. Cause like that's like, that's what you're gonna like. No, all these, all these trophies and medals and stuff, and the like no, no one's no one's seeing that, but like this, I'm gonna wear uh the the race shirt, I'm gonna wear this thing all the time. Like this is letting people know, like, hey, I I completed, you know, Leadville or whatever. You know, like no one's no one's seeing the stuff that's on your on your shelf in your house.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yeah. I I think there's a huge opportunity here. Um I'm probably divulging too much, but like one of the issues that we're running into right now is I I I'm having the hardest time finding a legit wholesaler in the US for our shirts. We're doing like 2,000 to$2,500 a year. And so I found the decent one actually. I think it was in might have been in South Korea. And like I go and order some samples and like I'm so oblivious, and then I get this bill in the mail where like 50% of the order is just the tariff.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

So I'm like, oh, we'll can't do that. So back to the drawing board.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

I I think a lot of people appreciate like made in the US stuff too. Um, which I mean it it is tough because there's so many there's so much out there. There's thousands of different types of t-shirt blanks and different fabrics, and then like hats, there's a million different hats. Like, how do you find like the one uh that you really I I think, yeah, and like just what what I've always done is like I've just found something like, oh, this is really cool. I really like this blank or this camo print or this or this. And I just like will just use that, like something that I I've already found, or like my friend developed this t-shirt blank. I really like the fit of this t-shirt blank. I'm just gonna use him. I don't care if it's 15 or 17 bucks a blank. Like, I just know that's a shirt that I like to wear, and I'm just selfishly making stuff that I want to wear. And then if other people want to buy it, that's totally cool. You can help support me and my endeavors and my films by just buying the merch. And that's like a whole new stream of revenue and income, which is great for someone who's like just trying to make their way in this like new career, you know, that where I don't want to have to rely on sponsorships. I mean, any one of those can like disappear next year, you know what I mean? Like, I'm I'm trying to build things that uh that can be sustainable for me, uh, maybe once I'm like not racing anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Have you been following uh Alex King, what he's building with Terugnota?

SPEAKER_01 49:55

No. Oh, pretty I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Well, this is uh I'll have to.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

I know of the brand.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Okay. Well, well, I mean basically the overhead, the headline here is he's making great product at a price point that is like 80% lower than what all the major brands are. And like I'm like, that's amazing. How long have how long has that been has like the the wool been being pulled over our eyes on price for?

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Yeah. Yeah, the markups, markups are are crazy.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

I mean brand counts for a lot though. Brand does count. I I am a believer in brand. I believe in brand. So I do believe that like paying for brand is something that is is is worthwhile. But just interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

I I I've heard that story. I I just like I don't even know I don't even know how you do it. I mean, you almost need to be like a one-man operation. Like, how do you how do you have employees when you're w running that operation? You know what I mean? It's yeah, it's it's tough. The whole the whole the whole thing, brands, is like is really just so complicated and complex and nuanced. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

On the content side of things, can you talk a little bit about uh again, if it's still a goal, the sort of like doing like the parts unknown, Anthony Bourdain style videos for a sport?

SPEAKER_01 51:10

I was actually talking to a a buddy of mine, and I love it. Yeah, no, I and I'm sure I mean it's not a novel idea. I'm sure there's a bunch of different people who have had this idea in the past, but I just kind of stumbled into it uh myself by accident when you know I'm getting re getting ready, gearing up to run Antelope Island 50 mile and the no CMs, the the apocalyptic swarm of biting gnats hatches a couple days before the race. And I just like I felt really bad that your race had gotten canceled and you know, I there were flights already booked. And I was like, I might as well just like go off to Salt Lake City. I I know a couple people there, like I'll just get an Airbnb and I'll just do a weekend training camp in Salt Lake City because both of my filmers, there's flights booked for them. Like, I'm just gonna bring them out. And on the way there, funny enough, I actually ran into Truett Haynes in the airport in Salt Lake, which was like first little like happy accident. I wish we were rolling film because it would have been great for the video. But um, I run into Truett and then, you know, on the plane, I'm like kind of coordinating, like, okay, who are some cool people that I can meet up with and hang out with? Like, obviously, you, you know, I I even I was like, we can do a podcast, we can just hang out, go for a run, like take me to some good restaurants that you that you know of. Like, and you gave me a list of recommendations, coffee, you know, cool shops, restaurants, a million different things to do. So I was like, there was so much more that I could do, could have done, but it was just like very limited time with the three day, three or four days that I was there, just the the weekend. So ended up uh linking up with Clayton Young for a for a 10-mile easy run, um, one of one of his easy runs, and uh which was uh fast. And uh so I hit up Clayton, um, hung out with Mikelino Censeri, who I I had never met before, but we'd we've been talking online. Um, super interesting story. I think um a really misunderstood person within um the trail running space. And I think he's gone through a lot of shit that he didn't really deserve to go through. Um, so getting to hang out with him and kind of talk to him about his story was just like so interesting and cool. And he's like so talented. Um, so hanging with him, and then the next day we went out to uh Midway and hung with Jimmy and uh got to do some running in Midway. And uh yeah, it was it was just so cool, like how easily and kind of seamlessly I've like put together this this trip. And I was like, oh, this is like a really cool formula that I could apply to a bunch of different places. Like I'd love to go to Flagstaff and hang out with all the people that train in Flagstaff, or like there's a bunch of cool dudes in Boulder that I would love to go check out Boulder and like see what kind of like what kind of good food is in Boulder, like how's the Boulder coffee? Like, let's climb, let's climb some mountains, let's run some trails. Like it's a very replicatable uh thing that I was like, I should just start a new YouTube channel and just keep making these videos because the Salt Lake City trip was so fun. Like, I might as well just go to Mammoth and hang with Tim Tollofson and Rod Farvard and like check out Mammoth, even though I've been there, but like Mammoth, like Mammoth would be a really cool place to do, or you know, go to go. I mean, there's a million different places in Colorado. You could go to, you know, uh Durango, or you could go to Boulder, or I could go like that the the uh the opportunities are endless. And um, yeah, I was just like really excited and fired up. So I um made a new we're working on editing this first video, um, which is we weren't prepared for all of this. We were kind of just trying to document the race. So we didn't have we didn't have good mics, like everything is just like kind of shotgun mics. So yeah, you know, we're it it's gonna it's gonna take some time to like re-edit this film and make it like uh more of like a show. And that's the kind of like what I think could be a huge opportunity for the trail running space is like there's a ton of podcasts, there's a ton of like standalone films, but no one's really doing any like shows, like for like a like a formula, like a uh a structured show, which I think seasons, episodes, yeah, see, yeah, season, and like, dude, I have so many different interests, like it can be even bigger than running. Like I could I could go rock climbing in Yosemite, or I could go train, I not that I do this, but like I could go train Muay Thai in Thailand, or I could go to Dagestan and like do a wrestling camp. I mean, there's like a million different, but like I'd be down to do all that kind of stuff. And um, I think a lot of maybe brands have looked at this idea and tried to do it, but there's I don't know, maybe not a huge amount of financial incentive for a brand to do something like that. Like it just needs to be a person who just starts to do it. So um maybe, maybe someone's gonna beat me to it and I'm spilling too much tea. But um, yeah, I'm uh I'm working on this like new project that I'm calling weekend training camp, which is gonna be like a travel training. I mean trail running, but like a travel training show where I'm gonna meet up with whoever I can within the ultra running space, wherever they are, and hang out with them, do some running, eat some good food, drink some coffee, and just yeah, that's gonna be it.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

I think it's a fantastic idea, and I I love the the possibility of extending like just your your character trying new things in adjacent fields. Yeah. Like maybe you go and try to compete in the steeple chase and like learn track and field, you know, for out in Eugene.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Or go to Oahu and like sur like surf some big waves in Oahu. Like that would that would be super fun for me.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

And run hurt in the same weekend or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, totally. So um, yeah, I'm I'm really excited. And you know, I got a couple, uh, I mean, my my filmers are super talented, uh amazing dudes, Tyler Ramirez and Kevin Trujillo. Um, they're like my media team, so they're you know on payroll from me um for indefinitely until they don't want to do it anymore. So this is gonna be a part of that, is we're just gonna travel and go to some cool places and try to make some cool videos, and maybe they suck, but uh at least they'll be different, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

The only thing that I can think of, and it's long since expired. This was like five, six, seven years ago. Billy Yang had this mini-series, it was five or six episodes called The Window Seat, which kind of touches on this, and I loved it. They were fantastic. This this just shows that I think there's a huge market for you doing that. And then Hoka did this thing also five, six, seven years ago where they just went to each of these iconic trail towns and tried to provide a taste of it. So, like when they came to Salt Lake, they went to our local running store, they went on a run with Carl Meltzer, they looked at the speed go course, stuff like that. It was cool, you know? Yeah, um, I think it's a winning idea.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

No one right now, no one's no one's doing that, you know. I'm like so new to the to the scene and like so naive that I I just like want to see all of this stuff and meet all these people selfishly, and I'm already documenting and you know making content, so why not just why not just do it? You know, I don't know. I just like I just thought it was a great idea, and I'm like, man, I I'm really excited about this. I'm just gonna do it. And that's I think maybe all it takes is just someone who's willing to do something like this, you know?

SPEAKER_02 58:33

And I wouldn't worry about copying like I think the most important variable is your perspective. Like people are tuning in because you have a certain perspective, like it's your lens, you're sharing a particular view. Like I'm curious to know what after this edit comes out, what your view of Salt Lake City is, you know?

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's it's cool. I think I think Salt Lake City is a gem. And it was the first time I had, I mean, I had I've gone to gone to Park City, so I I've like passed through Salt uh Salt Lake when I was a young kid. I mean, we're talking like 11 or 12 years old, so I really haven't been to Salt Lake uh as an adult. And it was just like, especially now that I'm like really into trail running and like being in the mountains and doing stuff on my feet and not on a snowboard, it was just like so cool to experience um the town. And you guys, you guys got a lot going on in Salt Lake, and there's like it's it seemed to me like it was very up and coming, lots of construction going on. Like I stumbled upon this like crazy, I told you about it, it's some crazy like art exhib exhibition show thing that was just like in this park in the middle of the night. I was like, this is like so there's like so much going on. It's like really cool. I don't know. It was like it was a really eye-opening um experience, and I got so much from Salt Lake that I just really didn't expect. Like I didn't expect there to be so much stuff to do in the mountains and like cool brands and cool running stores and like such like good coffee and like really, really good food. So it was I was just blown away by the entire place. And I think if you're someone who's like looking for a cool little weekend getaway and you're into trail running, Salt Lake City is a great place to go do it. And like let me show you what I did, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

I I know we're at the top of the hour. Do you have a few minutes?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

Oh, yeah, dude. That was an hour already, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:19

I know. I I've barely asked you about Cocodona. This is this I'm as long as you want. I'm being I'm being negligent here. Okay. Um okay, just some of the basics. Coke donor, like what is a peak week looked like for Cocodona?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Ooh. So last week I just did 150 miles of running. Um, quite a bit of it, like, I mean, some of my miles were like moderately fast, like in, you know, the sevens, uh, which I remember last year, uh, I I could not run anything like lower than a 10-minute pace for a lot of my miles, uh, just because I was like dealing with this like really bad plantar's fasciitis. So I like I'm feeling just so much better and so much healthier uh this year. And like I really don't feel like super fatigued um to like going into this week, which is I guess uh like somewhat of a taper week. I don't know how much running I'm gonna do out in Arizona when I go, um, but probably keep it within like the 50 to 70 mile range, and then um, you know, week before the race, it'll be very, very minimal running. But um, yeah, for the last three months, I think uh, I mean, most of my weeks were 130. Uh a couple of them were into the 140s. I had a pretty decently fast marathon back in February. 234. 234 at Austin. Um, so like I I know I got the speed. I've just been building like the durability and um the fatigue resistance with just doing a bunch of mileage. I I have a really good friend of mine, Billy Garner, who he just ran a sub three at uh Ventura Mountains to Beach Marathon in Ventura. So doing like a lot of his marathon workouts with him, which is like not quite a hundred percent effort for me. So it's like a little bit easier. So being able to do like hard workouts, but they're not like super taxing and hard, like doing, you know steady state. Yes, yes, a lot of steady state stuff. Um, so still mixing in, I mean, just a ton more intensity than I was able to do last year. But uh yeah, I'm just I'm just like feeling really good, feeling really healthy, feeling fit. Um, just got super dialed with my gear and my I I feel like my shoes are really dialed. I'm really liking the shoe options that I'm working with. Um and yeah, I'm just like I'm just fired up to get back out there at Coca Donut. Yeah, I'm just like really excited for the challenge and finally getting a finish out there. Like, I I I don't think people understand how close I was to the finish last year. It was just like having to drop at mile 238. Like I never understood how you could be 200 miles into a 240, 250 mile race and drop at mile 200. Like you're right there. Like I never understood, like, how can you just give up right there? But uh yeah, be being, you know, after experiencing last year and just the state I was in, like, dude, I get it. Like it's sometimes you can get so close and just it's all pulled out from under you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

Are you self-coached?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Okay, self-coached. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

So you're I mean, self-coach I I st I see what everyone else is doing on the internet, and I just steal from them. So uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:37

I like Well, who are who are your muses then? Who do you who are you getting inspo from?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

Um, well, it's actually been a while since um since I've like followed anyone on Strava. So last year leading up to uh leading up to Coca-Dona, I would I was like getting so in my head seeing what everyone else was doing, and like Dan Green was putting up like crazy numbers, and I was just like, I just need to not see what anyone else is doing, so I can just like focus on myself because I was like already dealing with some stuff that was kind of holding me back and hindering me. So I was just like a little bit too in my head uh about like who I was going up against, and like that kind of goes back to the competition thing. It just like kind of like rattled me. Um, like knowing I want to do well at this race, but like then like getting caught up in what other people are doing. I just needed to like block it all out. But for a long time, I mean I'd follow, name any pro that's public on Strava. I would see workouts, I would see stuff that they did, and I would just be like, oh, that looks cool, like doing uh, you know, hill intervals at you know threshold intensity, or you know, doing road marathon, like I always like did road marathon training. So just doing, you know, interval workouts on the road or doing uh mixing and strength training sessions, or I mean, after UTMB last year, like hearing about the the weighted rucking like uphill, like I've you know, incorporated a little bit of that, like not like what they were doing, but I have a little weight vest. If I'm taking my dogs on the walk on a walk in the park behind my house, I'll just put on the weight vest. Like it's better than just normal walking. So I'm like I'm I'm doing all these things. I'm kind of like stealing little bits and pieces that I I see people doing uh who are crushing it and killing it and successful um in trail running and just applying it to my own to my own training. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:21

And I I think you said it earlier, or you mentioned it earlier. Um, obviously with the caveat that all of us are still we have we still have all have a lot to learn about this distance. There's so much to learn training and execution-wise. But your your bet is that just being becoming the best runner that you can be in training, that will yield the most success for you. Like being able to run after Foxborough Ranch, like on the Coconudo Plateau, that whole uh section between like the Dells and Sedona, like that's where this is gonna pay off.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

Whoever whoever can run the most 10 minute miles wins, you know, like straight up. And I think that was I think that's what Dan's motto was last year. He was like, If I can just keep clicking off 10 minute miles, like I'll be good, you know? Just eliminating or minimizing the stoppage time and just running 10 minute miles. Like, oh, that seems so easy until you're 200 miles in and your legs are just feeling like they're gonna fall off.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Yeah. Yeah. This is an amazing field. Like men's and women's sides, some amazing runners in it. It's gonna be really competitive. Dude, I know this.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

And we got David Goggins at Kokadona. Huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

Okay, is he still in?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

Oh, I don't know. I that I is is he not anymore?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

I actually don't know. I I I I had heard, well, I saw him at Bigfoot last year, and okay. For people that weren't on the ground or haven't seen, we made like a this rough edit of him. Dude, the his ability to run 200 miles with no cartilage in his knees is it's insane. Tip of the kick.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:51

Oh, oh, is he not? Oh, on Ultra Sign Up, he's no longer in. So maybe I I just misspoke. Maybe not.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

Who is you know who is though? Cam Haynes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

Oh, Cam's in for Kokodonic.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

I think I think Cam is back. Can you check?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

Cam is looking so fit right now. Have you been seeing his like road marathon training?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

Cam is like Cam is like faster than Truett. Cam should be going for the OTQ.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

Dude, I'm so impressed that he's like PRing half 10 miles and half marathon distance and marathon distance at 57. 57. I I didn't want to, I didn't want to say it 57 if he was only 52, but dude, at 57, he's like per like in the best shape of his life. Like, dude, that is so inspirational. Yeah. Cam's back in, Courtney's in. I mean, dude, the the field is yeah, is is super deep. It's been a bummer. Um, some of the people who uh have kind of not made it to the race, like I saw Kyle Curtin uh like broke his ankle, dude. Such a bummer. Um, but yeah, I mean, that's kind of how a lot of these fields for the 200s play out. Like me knowing uh not being a hundred percent going into a race is like devastating. Like it's just part of the game with these races. Uh, you know, it'll be you know a couple weeks, a month out from the race, and the the lineup of entrance is definitely gonna change quite a bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

Even if you let me ask you this. I because again, I know like the goal is to run, well, I'm assuming it's to run your own race, but if you see something fun happening, like in the first 50k, if you just see like Joe Makatahe just like sprint out, like it is a party which like that looks fun. I want to just go do do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

I'm not doing yeah, no, I'm like trying to be conservative. It like I'm gonna be overly conservative on on day one, just because I like I really just want to be able to run on day three. I mean, you know how important it is on night two and day three. Just being able to run slow is huge. Like, I've been a lot of these races in at the very end, just like relegated to walking it in and just like death marching it into the finish. That I really want to be in uh better shape for the latter uh stage of the race. So I'm I'm really gonna be mindful of, and it's not gonna be exciting, and people might think I'm like totally washed and blowing it on day one because I'm like kind of intentionally trying to be like not at the front, which I don't know, always kind of sucks um if you're a little bit too conservative in the beginning and the race, the leaders kind of get away from you. But I don't know. I'm I I I really just need to uh like try to execute a good race for myself and not get caught up in what other people are doing. And we've seen some historic blow-ups from people that go out too quick on day one at Kogadona. So I'm like really just trying not to do that. Any time goals? I think, yeah, I think low, low 60s, I think, is really doable for me. Um I you I I know I have it in me. I just need to be able to put together um a good race. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:04

Gosh, I uh I almost think, and again, I feel like we probably had similar. Well, were your eight station transitions last year pretty efficient or were they slow?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Dude, I can't even remember. I like last year was such a blur. I was just like kind of hanging on for dear life. I and I have no data from my race. Like my the file on my watch got corrupted. So I I literally have no data from uh what happened last year at Kokodona. So I'm kind of just going into it, other than knowing the course, I'm kind of going into it uh blind from like a split standpoint and like stoppage time. But I'm I'm you I'm usually pretty good uh with with aid station transitions. I I really don't I really don't hang out or stay for too long and I I typically don't sleep too much. So I'm planning on like keeping aid station stops to a minimum, but also being mindful that like I really need to take care of my feet, especially on day one. So um definitely stopping at uh at Whiskey Row and doing a full shoe change, sock change, maybe even an entire outfit change is gonna be really important for me. And then I loved last year seeing uh Dan Green take a shower at Mingus. I think that's like a stupid. Oh, but that's huge. That's huge. Yeah. So just like mandatory shower at Mingus. Um, and then just like keep keeping that, keeping that system rolling and just like really, really trying to take good care of myself and stay stay clean and not you know deal with crazy chafing or blisters or foot stuff like that. Stuff is it's rookie mistakes that I cannot be making anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Were you part of the group that got screwed at Crown King and didn't get your drop bags?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Yes. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

So maybe you'll have that too this this time around.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:47

Yeah, yeah. That was yeah, that was my thing. I forgot about that. Well, I don't know. I don't I don't even trust drop bags anymore. Like at AC 100, I'm I two of my drop bags got lost. Uh I've I've just like had like mistakes, which I I don't trust drop bags anymore. So it's my crew is just gonna be there, and if my crew isn't gonna be there, I'll just take aid station stuff. Like, I'm not even dealing with drop bags anymore, unless it's like uh aid station that crew can't make it to, and I absolutely need a drop bag. I'm like not relying on drop bags anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:17

Okay, before we go, last topic questions. Um again, I'm thinking back to our BPN discussion, but I want to do it for Cokodona. I still think we're in this era where we're trying to convince the audience on the merits of this event from many different angles. If you were to make like a pros and a cons list for Kokodona as a runner, as a runner, like what do you love about Kokodona? What do you not like so much? Because you have to obviously come, I mean, obviously you're coming back for the finish, but you know, just thinking about like the overall pros and cons.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

Yeah, I I think I think one of the pros of Kogadona is it's just such a long race where so many different stories can be told um from the race. And we we've seen it with the films that Kogadona has put out over the years. It's like the front runners and then the back of the pack people. This year, I believe it's the all the female um field. So there's just like so many different storylines that play out. It's such a unique challenge just going from Phoenix to Flagstaff, like one point to another, um, going up and over mountains and just like the beautiful scenery that you go through at Kokodona. I think all of those things are huge pros for me. And what excites me uh the most about uh Kokodona in the cons. Man, I don't even know. I do you like the course? Do I like the course? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I do. Um, yeah, like maybe, you know, maybe there being more single track would be nice. Like those really long dirt roads like aren't super exciting, but I mean, any one of these 200s, like you're on long dirt roads for a long time. I guess like the only like major con that I can think of for Kokodona is no prize money. Like I think that's um, I think you know, the athletes competing for the win uh at these 200s. I think the 200s are, I don't know, maybe should uh should should carry a little bit more weight uh financially for the people who are competing in them. I think it's like such a new developing category that's uh a lot of these, a lot of eyes are on the people doing these races. And I think there is a lot of value in that. So I would love to see, I mean, we're seeing it with some of these races, you know. Like Tim is, you know, from the first year of Mammoth 200.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:36

You got some prize money, uh, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:38

Yeah. First time I've ever won prize money was at was at Mammoth. So that was really cool and fun and uh awesome little just a little bonus for uh for running a race. I think I think that's really cool. But um, yeah, and maybe we're gonna see it with like this crowdfunding thing that's happening. I I think that's what I was gonna say. Major sponsors and the races who are putting on these races, like it should just prize money should just be incorporated, especially if there's a live stream and like you're really like you're getting a lot of the eyes on the event from the people running it, and like you're docking, like there should be prize money. I I don't know. I think maybe that's the only con that I can see in Kokadona.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:15

Um yeah, but I I am so I will be because I'll be obviously glued to the live stream. And I think that if the commentators can keep the track around it going, like kind of on the hour reminding viewers that there is this crowdfunding happening. Yeah. I actually I there's a part of me that thinks over three or four days it could get pretty big.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:36

Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

I mean for Black Kin, it was like 16 grand.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:39

Yeah, is that happening? I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:41

I uh well, the last I heard, I had heard I I don't want to speak for Aero Viva, but I I I I thought that I heard it might be. Oh, cool. So that would I mean do you might you might have uh you might be racing your way into some prize money there too.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:54

Who knows? Maybe maybe if I can maybe if I can have a good race, we'll see. But yeah, I mean the the there's a lot of very talented uh people who are who are running Kokodona that I think are probably much better runners and much more accomplished than me. I'm still trying to figure out this distance, so uh I can only I can only hope for the best. But yeah, either way, it's gonna be super exciting. And um, yeah, I'm just like fired up to be like in good shape, in a good headspace with lots of support, like just not having a job anymore, not having to like train for Coca-Dona while working a full-time job. I know most of most people, that's what they do, but like it's so tough, you know, trying to like run and like even just the logistics of planning to get out there and Airbnbs and you know, fuel and crew and just all of the thing. It's like such a huge logistical undertaking running one of these 200s. Um like everyone who's who's out there should be respected for taking on the challenge, 100%. And I feel like I I have an unfair advantage now that I like am going into it and like don't have to work a normal job. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:05

Perfect place to put a pen in it. Max, Jala, thank you so much for all the time. I cannot wait to follow your Coca-Dona.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:12

Yeah, Finn. Thank you so much, man. Always a pleasure.