Supershoe Debates, Athlete Pipeline Wars, and ACG’s Trail Reception (Long Run Archives #38)

We discuss Sean Haworth's critique of ACG's Gorge Waterfalls activation, the four athlete development programs shaping the next generation of pro trail running, Scott Fauble's issue with supershoes in the marathon, and Climatic Health's new lung health product being marketed to endurance athletes.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

We are back. This is another edition of the Long Run Archives. I'm joined by friends, colleagues, Brett Hornig, Jeff Colt. What's up? Hello. Jeff coming out hot. What's up with you? What's new?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Things are good, man. Mountain running season. Things are starting to dry out. I got my first taste of the easy access trail running that Salt Lake City has to offer last week while I was there for work. Truly remarkable.

SPEAKER_05 0:27

What's the what's the letter grade?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

A plus. I mean, honestly, I was thinking about the best places I've ever been for mountain running. And like Majorca was up there from a trip I did earlier this year, and Salt Lake is definitely up there. It's so crazy how much vert there is and like how easy the trailheads are to access and stuff. Like I was shook. And I I went up Olympus and uh it's like super fun technical trails toward the top of uh, you know, top of the climb up to the saddle there. I had a great time. Uh it was even like snowing and windy and terrible weather, and I was like, this is where I want to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

It's like it's like one of the truest definitions of door to trail.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

And the Bonneville shoreline trail is just like what a concept. I'm like looking around, I'm like, can we just build a trail all the way across all the mountains around here? But private ranchers and stuff might have a differing opinion on that one.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

Where Caleb Olson lives in Suncrest, it's like the southeast corner.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

What's his address?

SPEAKER_05 1:31

We're gonna keep that off the airwaves. But he lives in the southeast corner of the Salt Lake Valley, and uh he has basically every single option and discipline for trail running outside his door. He can do Black Canyon, Canyon style training, Western States. It's it is his front door, like amazing Western States training, but then he can jog three miles and get into stuff that's relevant for Madeira and Grand Raid, crazy, and then he can scramble. So like there's just everything.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Did he do that on purpose? Like when he moved to that pocket.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

I don't know how premeditated it was. I just know that for him it he does need door to trail access in some form. So I think he did choose to live where he could, you know. He's got easy on the ditch, too.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Easy on the ditch, dude. That's that's all I got. No, no, and I I got easy on the ditch, and I just got douched grade paradise. Just blow up that GAP calculator.

SPEAKER_05 2:30

Yeah, and and the discipline of mountain running or sky running in the US, it's it's a dying breed of runners, right? So glad that you got to partake, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

So good. Yeah, I definitely a fan and definitely want to come out and uh check out some some run events in the Salt Lake area.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

How about you, Brett? What's up? So it turns out I get poison oak now. In Ashland? No, from the gorge. Except like I've done I've done mini races with poison oak, and I think I've just exposed myself to it enough times where my body has finally said, enough's enough. You need to stop doing that and try to avoid the poison oak. So I think the gorge was the was the last time that I don't give myself a full tech new bath at the finish line because I've got some poison oak on my legs and it's not very fun.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Damn, I'm sorry. I did not get poison oak there last year. Um I didn't know that it was as prevalent in the gorge, but maybe it was just a special year this year.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Yeah, the pre-race email, they said like look out for a little bit. And then once we hit the second half of the course, like the it was like thick forests of it, just all along the single track. And because it had rained uh earlier in the day, it was kind of heavy and droopy, and there was a ton of spots where it was just like drooping over the trail and it was just unavoidable. And I was like, well, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

What's your take on that 100k course? Did you like it?

SPEAKER_04 4:02

I I really did. I thought it was super cool. Um, I really liked how dynamic it is because of how different the two halves are. Also, Jeff, you ran the second half of that course so good. Like you absolutely know who ran it better. I mean, not that many people.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

I mean, I was trying to chase down Tracen. Like I I was thinking about Gorge a little bit this year as it was going on, and I was like, I don't care about$15,000 at all. I don't think I could have run a better race this year with that prize purse dangling in front of me. Like a spot on Team USA is so much more of an incentive to me. And I was looking at like the top 10 times run, and I was like, I I kind of think that might be true for more than just me. Like Adam, Trayson, um, both of those guys were just ahead of Jesh. I think uh two of us were just ahead of Drew uh for like four ahead of second place this year. But going back, like huge prize first this year. I think more talent was there last year.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

I agree. I think last year was definitely a deeper field. And uh it seemed like there was uh almost less expectation of like uh aggressive racing on the start line because there wasn't, you know, there wasn't we like yes, there was prize money up for grabs, but it I don't know, it doesn't seem like it built the same expectation of what's what's going to happen. Whereas for like a world qualifier, it almost seemed like like the gloves are coming off and it's just bare knuckle boxing and there's gonna be two the two best are gonna survive, but it almost felt like there was a little bit more like maybe we could finish like why was like why was I in second place through like eight or nine miles? Like I wasn't even running like that hard. Um so it was I it was interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

I asked uh I asked because I remember I think last year someone, maybe it might have been you, Finn. It was someone I was chatting with was like, I really hope if uh there's a golden ticket switch up that you know, like something like uh Big Alta would get a golden ticket race as opposed to Gorge. And I just I think Gorge is awesome. Uh that is like one of the most beautiful races. I think the Pacific Northwest is like long overdue for a golden ticket style race. And like I think it's the little kid in me. Um, waterfalls are really cool. And like there's some cool waterfalls out there. It is a really cool race. I was so giddy the whole time, even when I was like fuming uh that I let my day get away from me and like kind of bummed at missing uh missing a spot on Team USA. That that race is awesome.

SPEAKER_05 6:47

Yeah, yeah, super cool. I'll add this, and we actually, for the audience, we have a ton to talk about here because we're gonna pull in some hypotheticals and some comments from a few prominent commentators in our sport, Matt Trappy, Sean Hayworth, who sort of commented on sort of Gorge and the ACG activation. But one thing I'll just say up front, I'm really curious in the long term to know like if you're doing what Free Trail does, which I think they're putting out a really great product, and I think they're going through all of the ceremony and they're going through all the mechanics pre- and post-race to put athletes on a pedestal and cover the pro side of the sport well. My question is for how many years do they have to do that? And how much compounding has to take place for this to just be like an undeniable race at the very top of the sport? And this and the same thing will go for for Big Alta. Like, you know, I don't know how many years. I mean, I guess Big Alta it was year two, Gorge is year five, free trail's been putting in the sweat equity to to make it a bigger thing. I am genuinely curious to know like, how much longer do they have to do that for it to like really firmly take its place in the sport and um be right there with everything else? Because I mean, they're one of the biggest, if not the biggest media outlet in the sport. And uh I'm just curious to know like what influence they can ultimately have in the long run on just like the event structure for pros.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

They're coming at it from the other side of Ari Vipa, right? Like I would say Ari Vipa is the biggest content creator, you know, maybe not news outlet, but they do news. Like Ari Vipa built a race uh platform and simultaneously like built uh a lot of different channels for content and distribution of their race channels. Thinking back to like Mountain Outpost News and whatnot. Um Free Trail news organization wants to get into racing. It's it's really cool the spotlight that they can shine on their race. Uh like this is more of an idea than an answer to your question. I think the location of it and the timing of it is such that it would be really cool if it kind of turned into um less of an industry event and more of like the industry race, like of like seeing Nike on Brooks, like these Pacific Northwest-based brands showing up and like kind of like putting together employee teams or or whatnot to battle, um, get a new balance out there. Like, I think that would be a cool element of it. Um, right. Like obviously they went deep with ACG this year, and that branding was was a strong, strong presence, but the Pacific Northwest is North America's shoe capital, right? And like all of all of the major players have some presence there. Um I feel like it'd be cool to get like almost like that side bed of like less the athlete teams racing and more like the the like you know corporations going toe-to-earning.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

I love that idea. There's a track meet every summer. Um I feel I think it might be just called like the Portland Distance Festival or something like that. Um it's a pro you know an open track meet, but you know, they get a whole bunch of pro fields, a lot of people tuning up for USAs, whatnot, but they always uh that meet has had every year they run a 3K, and I think it's Portland versus Seattle, which is basically Nike versus Brooks. And they score it cross-country style. And I think they even added like the the women's field starts a number of seconds in front of the men's field as well. So that way they can uh like just score it like scratch scoring across both genders, and then the winning team gets to take home like a axe or something cool that they get to, you know, they get to have until the next year. But that would be such a fun additional dynamic to bring to a race like the Gorge because there was already there was so many Nike employees that ran the races that were there. Um it's like, yeah, sure that maybe they helped out with getting everything ready, but a lot of them just ran the races. And that would be really cool to make it more than just a Nike commercial. Um maybe have some of the other industries there as well. And yeah, let's like uh maybe I'll donate like a machete or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

The uh I I think it's Penriles that does like the media mile or something like that. I always see Chris Chavez Obsidious, like, you know, lining up to race and I feel like those like kind of like all right, the the players of the sport who's covering the sport and stuff, you know, not to not to make Debo race his own race, uh um while he's also trying to put it on and stuff. But I I do think these little like side uh you know side quests are are a fun uh fun thing to entertain. Like, all right, you know, I know we we joked about it last year and and a little bit this year around uh Black Canyon, 50k of like the media race, but like getting getting the media players to show up. This isn't at all a a bash toward uh toward Debo. I think he's getting super fit right now, but Brett, I first raced you in 2017 or 18 at Bandera. I think you're fitter now than you were then.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

I think you're right, which I didn't realize. I ran faster at Gorge this year than I did at Bandera then.

SPEAKER_05 12:25

And you were supposed to retire two years ago.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Yeah. I know.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Well, what's going on? It just can't I don't know. You might be you might be holding uh holding down the the top prize unless you catch Count Francesco's podcast.

SPEAKER_04 12:40

Oh, I know. That's he He does get paid to run, which I feel like is gotta be some sort of clause there. But um What's your mile right now? Are you 432 right now? Well, like in the last like two months. I ran 43 uh eight or 439 last December.

unknown 13:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

I ran 439 when I was 17 and I haven't run faster since on a track. I think I've run downhill miles during races, maybe like similar timing, but yeah, turn I think yeah, you could probably you probably break.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

Give yours give yourself like six weeks. It's it's surprising. The the the hardest part is the first like starting and being like like all the alarm bells are just going off. You're like, what body, what is going on right now?

SPEAKER_05 13:36

But um, yeah, what were we talking about with Gorge? Carrying enough fuel for big efforts. It used to be tricky, not anymore. One of my favorite products from precision fuel and hydration is their 300 gram flow gel pouches. It's a re-engineered form of their popular PF30 and 90 gels to flow more easily in bottles and flasks without adding water. So sometimes I'll use those bottles and flasks for intake. But broadly speaking, it's a fantastic innovation for long runs. Instead of needing to pack eight to ten gels or whatever, you can just bring one of these pouches, uh resaleable cap, which is awesome. Go check it out along with their nutrition planner at precisionhydration.com. And if you purchase anything, feel free to use code SINGLETRACK at checkout for 15% off your next order. Thank you so much to Precision Fuel and Hydration for being the official nutrition partner of this show. Norda, the official footwear partner of the show. You'll see Norda athletes in action over the next few weeks. For example, Jimmy Elam is lining up at the Mi Walk 100K, Rachel Entriken at Cocodona, Ethan Peters this weekend at Madeira. My favorite racing shoes, the 005 and the 5'5, will each be on display. Go check them out at NordaRun.com. Well, okay. I I got our I should do our first prompt here. So basically, I I sent you guys a screenshot of this ahead of time. I will try to put it in the show notes for context, but I'll just summarize it here. So uh Sean Hayworth, prominent creative in the sport, posted a pretty long critique of Nike ACG's activation at Gorge 100K earlier this month on his IG stories. To summarize, he basically said Nike flew in a bunch of influencers, athletes, decked the mountain free kit, and he produced, or they produced what he called the best looking design work trail running has ever seen. So triangle bibs, pretty beautiful shots, huge budget. But he didn't like it. He said his argument is that the whole thing felt like people LARPing in Nike gear rather than actual trail culture. And it reminds him of the Lululemon further campaign and their broader investment in trail, which apparently flamed out pretty quickly. Uh, maybe the most uh damaging quote here, he says, I don't think Nike will ever learn that you can't buy soul, you can't buy authentic, you can't buy cool. Finally, he predicts that ACG will push hard for the next six to twelve months in trail. Like Lulu, they will fade into obscurity, maybe reboot in five years. Uh, and in the meantime, it's gonna almost be paid entirely by athletes and Beaverton employees. End quote. Brett, you have been in the unique position of being both at Gorge this past weekend and you're at the further event uh for Lulu. Um are you buying or selling what he's saying here?

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Well, here's a little bit of my speculation for Lulu. I felt I have a hunch that like Camille Heron kind of completely blew up Lululemon run. Like they like there should have been an amazing documentary to come out of further. But it was probably largely gonna be surrounded around all the world records that Camille ran. And like then she got her contract terminated. So then and then it was kind of like what's our fallback here? And I don't I don't not much in terms of fallback, but so I'm curious, I would I would be really curious to see what the Lululemon running division looks like in another universe where Camille's husband doesn't jack up a bunch of Wikipedia pages. Um as far as ACG's branding and everything and being there, like I don't know, in my opinion, that's kind of where my expectations were at in terms of Nike's branding for their home race that's 30 minutes down the road from their world headquarters. Like if I went there and it was just daybreaks pin flags that they are able to set up at all their other races, because they're they're very dialed as a race company. You know, they've got the big box trucks and they truck everything in, and you know exactly what you're gonna get when you go do a daybreak race, and it's awesome. But when this is the ACG-sponsored race right down the road from Portland, I would have been pretty disappointed if there wasn't this amount of branding. And maybe that's because of what you know, like even uh the ACG branding that was at the running event this past fall, uh, and and everything that they put on there and Nike's continued I don't know, I'll call it an investment into actual events. It I don't it yeah, I mean, it seemed definitely in a way it's gonna turn some people off, but it seemed correct to me for Nike. Like I came there and everything was orange and there was all the stuff and they had custom everything. You walked into the gorgeous uh brewery across the street, and you you would think that Nike has owned that building for the last 20 years. Like the chairs in the brewery were orange, they had flags up that was Nike, they had all this cool stuff. They brought in their own beer. There was a special edition beer for the race. And it was totally over the top, but it made sense to me because it's Nike. Like you're the biggest athletic brand in the world. Why would you not have the biggest branding?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

But was was Pre's spirit there? You know, was Prefontaine's soul there? Did you feel it? Was the soul there?

SPEAKER_04 19:31

Like like I said, there was a lot of beer there.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah. Um it my my gut goes to the comment of like you can't buy soul and you can't buy cool. And uh I saw what ACJ did with their athletes around the Olympics and um bringing a bunch of their athletes over there, you know, the wrapped train, like there was quite a bit. And I was in Cortina at the end of March doing some some ski boot testing, and I I sent you guys some photos, but I went into this like what I don't know the parlance like today, but I went into like a hype-beast shoe store, uh, you know, like street streetwear stuff in uh Cortina, and like the employees in there were way cooler than I was, and like just like kind of gaffawing on the wall at like Solomon shoes, on shoes, all trail shoes, by the way, like hookahs. And as I'm looking around, I saw the ACG Cortina jersey, like the hockey jersey they made. Like, I thought that was really cool. And then I was flipping through, like they had an ACG lookbook at the front of the store, like on a pedestal on display. And the shop guy was like, dude, can you please take that? I was like, no, I'm not gonna take this. He's like, no, they left so many here. We don't want them in the shop.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

I was like, oh. Uh my buddy Brett would totally like this, but uh, I'm not gonna like fly home with this like lookbook. And it was, it was the same, like kind of like what is uh, you know, like nature animalistic, like go into like the carnal state of like your you know lizard brain or whatever it is that their advertising and stuff has been pushing out, like a couple words per page. But seeing this guy who objectively was super cool be like, get that out of here made me think of like, oh, you maybe you can't buy cool. Maybe Sean's on to something there. Um from my perspective, like, yeah, it looked very, very well branding, home court advantage, go all out. Uh but the like when further happened, I was like, this is really cool. This is like further is um empowering women to push themselves further than they ever have. Uh, like talking to Leah about her experience there, I think like running 400 miles made her think a hundred miles isn't that far and that it's like a very Like, you know, uh in a cool opportunity, I think, for those athletes. I do get it as like, all right, pour a bunch of money into this, be able to turn it into storytelling. What Nike can buy is like a lot of the best athletes in the world. And the fact that they flew in uh athletes from Asia to race, I think is notable and really cool. Um I don't I didn't have Jen Lichter um yum meow on my bingo card for at least this early in 2026. And I'm psyched that race got to happen. And once again, Jen Lichter stock like going up, regardless of what Nike stock might be doing. Like Jen's on the up and up.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

I I appreciate um Sean putting a point of view out there, and I think it's a worthwhile conversation to have. Yeah, I I really enjoyed further, and I also really from from home enjoyed the ACG experience and you know what free trail was putting on in daybreak. I I just get the sense increasingly that there's just like two or three very distinct categories of events. And like you said, Brett earlier, I knew going into this that this was gonna be a very professional thing. You know, it was just gonna be like a very professionalized type of event, and that comes with a certain experience. And this is not gonna be what I would experience at the Hey Mez Mountain 50 or the Zane Grey 50. You know, like that's a in that world I think Amazing events. Amazing events, too, right? Amazing events. Um, I but like I and I don't think Sean is necessarily saying it here, but I I also don't subscribe to like the domino theory here. Like, you know, communism anywhere is a threat everywhere. Like I don't believe that, you know, in Nike putting on this experience is gonna like corrupt what's happening at these other lower key daybreak events. You know, I I just think it's it is its own lane. It's gonna be a thing. And so um even if you don't like it, I wouldn't worry that it's gonna take over every event experience in our sport long term.

SPEAKER_04 23:59

One thing you said earlier that I thought was interesting. You said, you know, like, you know, Nike and ACG and Free Trail, they're doing all this big stuff here, big Alta, you know, what will it look like if they keep doing this year after year after year? And kind of going back to what Jeff said about just the differences between the two years of one being a world's qualifier and one's not, I just don't know if any amount of money they sink into these races will really grow it on the competitive side as a standalone race. And that has me thinking, like, like what is Nike and ACG's like five-year, tenure plan? Like, are they going to try and swoop in and take over the title sponsor for UTMB at some point? Are they going to try and actually build some sort of race series that is a competitor to UTMB? Like at that at that side of the sport, you know, it does kind of all seem to circle around like in North America you have Western states. In the rest of the world, you have UTMB. So like I I don't see Gorge ever being something like one of those. Like, I don't see being, oh, now it's the big three Western states, Gorge, and UTMB.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

I will say if if Nike had stepped up and been a year ahead on their planning, and the fact that they're already the kit provider for Team USA had done all of this last year when it was a world's qualifier, it probably would have looked better. And like that's coming from someone who isn't a Nike athlete, had no performance incentive to show up at Worlds other than, you know, getting on the world's team, which was the goal. Um, like that wasn't even US 100K nationals last year. Like if it had been US 100K nationals, there would have been some performance incentive for like those of us running it, but there wasn't prize money. Like Nike had no presence last year. Um, and they are the team kit provider, which I think is a polarizing thing for a lot of athletes who are sponsored by other brands. I mean, yeah, like uh I think Jim put it eloquently with kind of his take on on getting the opportunity to run worlds, but also running for Hoka and like Hoka is his livelihood. That's what that's what's what makes him you know be able to chase his dreams. It's not it's not uh like you know, Nike paying his way or or doing anything uh beyond just providing a team USA kit. Um the the home court advantage, like we we mentioned that slightly, and I think this like do brands want like their athletes to win the races that they host? And like the obvious answer is yes, but like the obvious, like if we look at Nike and Gorge or Adidas and a race that they sponsor, or Hoka and kind of Hoka might be the exception on that because they sponsor this UTMB series and it's all of these races, but no other brand is flying their you know their top Asian athletes into uh race at Gorge, like if it's a Nike race. So like Nike wanting to get a team camp together and getting their absolute best uh best athletes on the starting line. Like yeah, they they better kind of like win their home court race. Uh I think I think Hoka's reach in the sport right now with this UTMB partnership and all the golden ticket partnerships is is the glaring exception. But you know, we we see team camps connected with brand-sponsored races because it's the most value you can get. And like this pushes back to Sean's point a little bit there. Like the marketer in me is like, yeah, of course you're gonna go all out and like try to get his great storytelling and like the the move to bring a bunch of content creators and influencers on site. If those influencers just got inspired by Jen Lichter and they just became fans of our sport, that is a net positive. And like the the overall impact and reach that uh Nike had for ACG Gorge, you know, sure, it might have elevated the color orange and ACG's like goals. It also elevated our sport for some really competitive, exciting races. I think one of the true winners of the weekend was Mason Copy. Um, like free trail pre-race interview. First, I think Mason's like a like stalwart, like you know, kind of like he is as good as it gets in American mountain running in a lot of ways. Like he's qualified for two worlds teams. So I loved hearing him be like compared to a newbie or rookie on the scene. But like getting the pre-race interview and the post-race interview and beating ACG athletes, like that was all awesome press for Mason. Like good gamble on getting out there and and signing up for that one. Um, and if other influencers and stuff like shine some light on Mason as well, this is this is like a net good.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Slight side tangent, but did you see what he ran at Boston?

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

215. 215.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Let's go. That is so sick. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Um yeah, like like Mason stock up and that, yeah, Gorge helps rise raise that stock because of all the activations and stuff that they had going on there. And um yeah, I mean one thing that's you know maybe a counter argument to like a lot of the over-the-top branding was from my point of view as a participant in the race, it didn't negatively affect my race experience at all. Like I didn't get poked by like selfie sticks or you know, anything like that. It once the race started and I was out there on course, it it felt like an amazing run looking at cool waterfall. Like they didn't paint all the waterfalls orange, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Adding food coloring to waterfalls. No, they didn't do that. Crazy.

SPEAKER_04 30:30

Maybe an idea for next year.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Brett. Is ACG's presence in the trail community is this a flash in the pan? Are they are they in and out or do they have lasting power?

SPEAKER_04 30:41

That's what I I mean, I hope that it's lasting power. I imagine that it's I'm curious what their like on their like long-term plan. I hope they have one. Yeah, how many years down the road is their roadmap? Like what are what are they looking at? Um yeah, I still don't know quite what their long-term angle is. Maybe they're trying a whole bunch of different things and looking at various analytics and seeing what what avenue they need to lean harder into. I'm curious where you know, where all this activation ends up from a pure sales standpoint with their footwear, because for how much money they're you know throwing everything, I would still say that their overall footwear line on the trail side of things is pretty skimpy. Um, like they don't have that many shoes uh for trail. So I I'm really curious what kind of research they're doing there. Um it just seems like for how much they've really leaned into ACG, and this isn't new, like ACG's been a thing before. Yeah, like ACG, ACG was cool.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

People are forgetting that. Well, I think it's bringing back what's cool, right? And like the the reason I think they might have staying power is it's not just trail running, right? Like I am seeing ACG trail running shoes on people who've definitely never trail run before, and that's that's some sign of like, all right, the Solomon, the Hoka, the on, like that that is catching on in a way. Um, but ACG is like revisiting their winter sports line. It's revisiting a lot of these different uh kind of avenues. And I think it's like them recognizing that having an outdoor specific channel is important. Um the the thing it does make me think of 2018-2019. Is that right? 2017 Ultra took over as the lead sponsor of Western States. Hoka basically, I when I was doing PR for Hoka, they had been the sponsor of Western States. They like were really owning this space, and then they leaned away.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

And they were the supporters of Western States before Ultra Ultra.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Ultra? I thought so.

SPEAKER_04 33:12

Yeah, I just don't I don't remember. But I I ran the year that Ultra, one of the years that Ultra was the sponsor.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

I thought they were. Maybe I'm I'm I might be mistaken in this. I know they pulled back their funding from like I run far and like supporting, you know, that channel. And they like basically stepped away from trail.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Yeah, I remember all that.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

So apologies if my history is wrong. I'm more so trying to make the point. They they were trail running, yeah. Founded, you know, tried and true. They then like were like, we're gonna lean a little bit more fashion forward and step away from core trail running for a couple years. And like Ultra kind of stepped in and and uh was like I think both more popular as well as like maybe not more popular than Hoka, but their popularity rate uh um was elevated and like they were the kind of title sponsor on a couple big races, and Hoka kind of was like, you know what, we need to reown this like core space that we that we let drift away a little bit. So I wonder if we see ACG like here trying to test it out and like address the waters, or you know, if they're like the outdoor space and segment of shoes is growing so much, like this needs to be something that we try to take ownership over. Um it's not gonna be an easy like thing to wrestle away from HOCA, uh, you know, a UTMB or a Western states title sponsorship. And Hoka's not like suffering. Um they're they're not hurting in a way that they might let that go. So I don't know. I I'd like to see uh ACG stay around. I think it's super good for the sport uh in in a like professionalization sense. Um but the last like 10 years of Nike's identity crisis is exactly that. Like they've had an identity crisis. Um so this this new edgy demeanor might be rubbing people the wrong way.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

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SPEAKER_04 36:43

And there was one other thing that I always thought was going to be they only sell, like Lululemon only sells stuff at Lululemon stores. How do you expand how do you expand your footwear line when the only people that are coming into the stores are like just Lululemon fans? Like they needed to separate at least footwear or like a run specialty and allow it to be direct consumer. Because I was like, dude, you guys are never going to move huge amounts of shit.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Even if they don't want to do direct consumer to consumer, like getting them into run specialty retail. Yeah. Um, so that people can try them on, because Lululemon stores are few and far between.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

Exactly. So I was like, you guys are just not going to move enough shoes because you need the only way you're breaking into this market is if you can just get shoes on a ton of feet. Um, you know, that's definitely something that Nike has the ability to do that Lululemon was not able to do. Nike is able to get shoes on a lot of feet if they want to, because they they've got quite a few accounts.

SPEAKER_05 37:48

So my my open question to, I guess, you guys in the audience is how bad would the signs or indicators need to be within your first year of investment for you to want to pull out? Like I would have to, I would guess, just I would just guessing with a major brand like Nike, it would have to be more than just one year. Like, how bad would it need to be in the sport? Like for everyone out there that's just saying, oh, this is a quick test investment, and then we're gonna leave. Like, really?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

I mean, it just seems like a huge- I think some of it comes down to leadership and attention, though. I mean, we got the 2028 Olympics around the corner. And I know it seems like that's a couple of years away, and you know, it is, but at the same time, it's effectively like the next thing. Are they gonna be looking at contract signings for trail athletes renewing next year? Or are they gonna be doubling down and trying to pull big talent uh who, you know, 18 to 22-year-old sprinters? Like, who is the priority? And Olympic gold medalists are they've got to be up there. Winning on your home turf in LA, like I'm sure that that is high priority for Nike. And you can bet it's also high priority for every other footwear brand. So is the attention that they can give trail more than a tiny teardrop RV at the outdoor retailer show with two people talking about, you know, trail running and like no contact and no shoes to seed, which is what it was like through 2020. Um, or like, is basketball gonna pull from that? Is football gonna pull from that? They are everywhere and they're in everything. So like attention is a is a hard one. And if if leadership changes and it's like, guys, we need to win big in LA, um, there's no trail events in LA, cut it.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

Yeah, I I agree. They need to be able to do both through 2028. Um, because if and and we've I've seen it, like we've all seen it. Like trail kind of has gotten forgotten about by many brands once every four years, where all of a sudden they're like, oh yeah, we uh any other year we would totally do that. But this year we don't have the budget on the trail side. Um so I think or the bandwidth.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

I mean, when you're moving team members around, like it's budget is always like an easy thing, but it's like if if the design team on the shoe side, they're like, hey, we actually need to pull some of you guys to like make this new like perfect 10k shoe because you know, this runner, you know, because Grant is like lined up to to win the Olympics if we can get a slight advantage, then like that bandwidth just moved. Um it's it's uh it's I think it would be the result of limited resources, and that's a crazy thing to say for the biggest outerwear company in the world, but that's the truth at every footwear company is like limited resources and bandwidth for a lot of different priorities.

SPEAKER_05 40:50

Okay, I've got one random ass comment here and then one question for you guys. I went to pull up Instagram to research something for ACG just to contribute to this conversation. I go, my feed opens up, and I swear to God, the algorithm is listening to us recording right now because I get this post. It's a memory post from Dean Carnassus, and it's him and Topher Gaylord at the start of I think like the 1997 Western States 100, and the start line banner says Western States 100 presented by Sunmart, which is a convenience store brand. Western States was uh the primary sponsor was a convenience store brand in the 90s. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Isn't that insane? Be so sick if the aid stations were just like the little Debbie snacks and little hosts, it's just like convenience store laid out in front of you.

SPEAKER_04 41:35

It's funny how like back then that's like proof that trail running was still such like small potatoes sort of thing. But now, if we had a convenience store sponsorship, it would be like the sickest thing in the world.

SPEAKER_05 41:48

I yeah, someone needs to give us the story of how that came, like maybe if Craig is listening, just give us a story of how that came to be. That's just amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

I think I think we also should revisit just like the idea of story time. Hey, we're doing story time. This is a you know podcast episode with Craig or you know, whoever uh we are talking about uh Western states, you know, brand partners uh through the 80s and 90s. Uh like that's a could be a fun little idea segment. Um, do we want to keep rolling on Nike? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:20

I gotta throw, I gotta throw one last thing to you guys because I think it's I think it's key for the episode. Because you mentioned home court advantage, Jeff. Uh Brett, you saw this on the ground. Uh and I think this has happened with other brands at other events like you guys described, but uh there was also the controversy of ACG getting a special bus for their athletes, getting them to the start line early to warm up all that type of stuff, and other sponsored athletes that were racing the Jacob Banders of the World at Ultra, etc., they take like the normal mid back-of-the-pack buses, and there's just like inequality there. Fair, unfair, difference maker.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Brett, your thoughts first. So it sounded like this mostly pertained to the 30k, which was the first race of the Gorge weekend, where in the race email or whatever it says all athletes need to take the buses to the start. And then it sounded like well, and then there was a whole like snafu with the buses being late and they had to push the start time back. And some people said the start line, the start time didn't get pushed back enough, and there were still people like arriving to the race like less than 10 minutes out from the start, which I think that's kind of unacceptable. Um it's also yeah, buses, buses to start lines are also just tricky unless you're like the Boston marathon. But it also sounded like there was a whole bunch of Nike athletes that didn't take the buses and got different rides and got there early and had plenty of time to warm up. Yeah, yeah. I think I don't think that's cool. That seems pretty unfair because that's like just a clear breaking of the rules. Um I believe that all elites should have the same unfair advantage. Over the non-elites. But like if Nike wants to put on a you know a killer event and have you know a like the Boston Marathon, everybody in the elite field gets the elite preference. They get the police escort to the start. They get the cool walkout of the host hotel, regardless of sponsor. Um so it sounded like that it didn't happen in the 50k. It sounded like uh maybe the race strike, maybe daybreak might have given Nike a talking to him, being like, hey guys, don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

So it does draw some parallels to again their activation at the Olympics, where it was like there was this like indoor dirt track, but like they didn't open it up to the public. It was just like the Nike invited influencers who got to use it. And same with like the train they wrapped. It's like, had those influencers who likely have a collective tens of millions of followers been on the regular bus with the regular people, that actually would be doing more for our sport of like, all right, like, you know, I'm actually in like interacting and and meeting other runners as opposed to like, I was invited here. This is an all-expensive paid trip. I've got all of my own things. Nike sent up a glamping situation for me. And like I get my own special bus and I don't have to interact with like the plebeians. Um, but I mean, you know, you look at like did Nike win every race? Like, no. So uh it's is it an unfair advantage? I think so. It it draws parallels to Solomon's support at diagonal to foo um of like there's certain areas that only Solomon athletes were like getting crewed uh from from kind of years back. But um like as an athlete, is your brand showing up for you? Yeah. Is it over the top and unnecessary?

SPEAKER_05 45:59

Like maybe that's foo that Solomon had that advantage. Foo? Did that joke land?

SPEAKER_04 46:15

Finn, what do you think? Fair or unfair, just part of the game?

SPEAKER_05 46:20

I mean, I loved your quote earlier about just like the elites collectively should have the same unfair advantage. I think that's probably where I stand too.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Yeah, like I think uh yeah, the elites, they should have all gotten posted up in the the Holiday and Express in Troutdale, and they should have gotten their their police escort bus to the start line.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Um I think uh like I'm happy that ACG is playing in the sport in this way. And like last year, like you know, was on's official like entrance into the trail space. Uh, and I'm happy that like they are here to play in this way. I think the um like the more competition within the trail running world um the better. I think rising tide lifts all ships. I do think like as we explore this like pipeline war, uh and like you know, Nike Nike's showing up in a lot of ways already in 2026. And I think the announcement of their research program, like that intrigued me on part because like you have one of the best runners in the world, Caleb Olson, openly saying that he's switching coaching staff after winning the primo race in the world, and then like saying, like, actually I'm working with like Nike's research team and they are coaching me. I'm like, well, damn, I want to pick Caleb's brain right now more than ever. Uh but then to see that application open up for Nike's research program of like, we want to do a co-located team, we want you to commit. And like if you're accepted, you know, we're we're gonna try to pamper you and set you up for success in this uh burgeoning field of athletics.

SPEAKER_05 48:07

Okay, really quickly, just for the audience, this is for the audience. The topic here is pipeline wars, trail team, trailhouse, Solomon Next Gen, Nike Research Program. And I sent this to Jeff and Brett. Which of these four models will be the most successful in producing top talent in the next five to ten years? Secondarily, if you guys were 22 right now and accepted into all four, which one do you pick and why? So that's sort of like the conversation prompt here.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

Before we get in, Finn, can you give just like a little elevator pitch on each one just to kind of set the table?

SPEAKER_05 48:40

I would say the trail team was.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

And can you also compare them to houses at Gryffindor?

SPEAKER_05 48:45

Yeah. So we got Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff.

SPEAKER_04 48:48

Who's the sorting cat in this scenario?

SPEAKER_05 48:51

I can't go that. I can't, I I off the top of my head, I don't have the IQ necessary to immediately draw connections to Harry Potter, even though I love Harry Potter. Um, so I would say trail team, first mover in this space, but by nature, uh maybe the most casual of the four options. You can be co-located, you can have your own sponsors, your own coaches. Andy will organize training camps, he'll give you advice, all the type of stuff. It's you kind of develop like a camaraderie with that cohort of athletes, but fairly casual, but a first mover important that way. Solomon Nextgen, you are in-house with a brand, you are co-located. Christian Meyer is like your head coach, and he's picking your race schedule. Um, you are getting all of that is gonna be in uh I actually don't know where the co-location happens, but it definitely is in Europe, somewhere in Europe.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

And those 10 athletes are all from like 10 different countries, none of them are from the US.

SPEAKER_05 49:42

Exactly. And they're all basically from national programs in Europe, like Solomon, Spain, Solomon, UK, et cetera. And they basically get all the bells and whistles and services that the pros like Lucy and Courtney do, but then they get sort of that extra coaching, tutelage, all that type of stuff. Trailhouse, uh, also co-located, Boulder, Colorado. And the differentiator there is it's kind of a content play as well. And your lives are being like choreographed and your like weekly content is coming out around you know, your training and racing. Matt Daniels is coaching that one. And then the last one is Nike Research Program, which sounds like the most guinea pig of the four. Like you are going there with the expectation that you are kind of participating in a science experiment, and Nike is running you through this battery of tests and experiences over I think this summer to 15 weeks. 15 weeks. And I'm guessing that they will use that information for shoe testing, for how to make Caleb Olsen a better runner at UTMB. I was thinking all that type of stuff. Oh man. How'd I do? Did I describe it decently well? I think that's great.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Yeah, I need to learn more about Trailhouse because I I guess I didn't quite get it. It was more of like a content creation play. And like, is there any brand support behind Trailhouse? There's multiple, there's multi-brand support.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

I think Lever, uh, Win Republic, and Hyperlight are the three primary sponsors. And I mean it's it's serious. Like Matt Dan, they hired Matt Daniels as the coach, and they are going to be working with these people, giving them sort of the same type of advice and opportunities that the Solomon Next Gen program has. But uh the big thing is they're also making content in real time so you can like follow their journey into professionalism.

SPEAKER_04 51:24

And their their goals are all maybe a little bit different. Whereas like I think the trailhouse, one of their main goals was like for the end game to be these athletes landing professional sponsorships. Yes. Um like as they graduate through the house. Um, whereas like you'd the you'd think with like Solomon and Nike it would be a feeder into Solomon and/or Nike. Like, why would Nike be helping someone get better for them to only get signed by Adidas or something like that? Um same with Trail Team, but it's like a development program to then go and gain a a professional sponsorship from a brand. Um where are you going, Brett? At twenty two years old, which one are you picking? I mean the Nike research program has piqued my interest the most, uh partly because I'm always I've always been super interested in just that side of the sport of like research where we go on development, like gear, the tech, all that sort of thing. You know, also like you know, I went to college in Oregon. I've been around enough people who were like drowning in the Nike Kool-Aid where I'm getting like some secondhand Kool-Aid for sure. And you know, after Gorge, one of um with your Gorge entry, so with your bib, you also got an entry to the Nike employee store. So that was one of the perks of ACG's sponsorship. So the next day we went, we went over to the employee store and you know, shopped around a little bit, but we also walked around. We just did like a good size walk around the perimeter of the the Nike campus and you know, going through some of the trails and seeing the track that's in the woods and just the expansiveness that is the Nike campus and how from an athletic standpoint, right there in that one spot, they have every single resource that you could pretty much ever need. So for all those reasons and and and reading like the the application or kind of the pitch to apply for this Nike research program, it was, I don't know, it just kind of hit all the all the right buzzwords for me. It was like full-time coaching from Nike Applied Performance Scientists. You know, they're gonna research and interpretation from all this different testing education sessions on topics relevant to your sport, footwear and apparel, housing and modest financial compensation. And it's a it's 15 weeks because they want to see how you adapt and you know can complete a training cycle and really learn how to like they they believe that's enough time to learn like what makes you you and get you to be the best version of yourself as a runner.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

And they said like you need to be able to do three hour runs, like so maybe just 15 weeks of three hours runs every day, like just like trial by fire.

SPEAKER_04 54:38

Well, and that was the other thing was like, how does Nike pick this team and what's their goal for Nike? Are they gonna, you know, use this team of 15 people and be like, all right, we're gonna use 14 of you to make this one person really good because we've decided that it's actually that person. Or, like you said, we're gonna experiment on these 15 people to make Caleb better.

SPEAKER_05 55:03

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SPEAKER_01 55:48

My short answer is I'm going for the one that uh offers a dental sponsorship. Um, I don't think that the trail running world is taking uh dental hygiene seriously enough. And I think the uh the high carb fueling, yeah. Uh like it's really effective for training. But like we if we need to start looking for, you know, uh non-endemic sponsors, I think like Delta Dental, like the the trail team, someone should lock one of these down so athletes are set up for long-term health.

SPEAKER_04 56:23

Jack's wanting that aqua fresh sponsorship for sure.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Yeah. I I don't know. I'm kind of torn. The trail house to me, I don't I don't know enough about it, but when you put the word house on there and then say that there's a content play, it makes me think a little bit of like these like weird like TikTok and OnlyFan houses that are like content creation houses. And that seems like a weird, weird uh spin into the trail space. I I kind of feel like um Solomon's Next Gen program, like being in Europe is an advantage. And I say that because I think there's just so much more high-level racing, proximal mountains, like really different landscapes. I'd probably be most interested in that. I think uh Christian Meyer, like versus I guess the Nike research team, like on you know who's who's kind of giving the direction there. Um I think just like elite level cycling and try is like a a cool background to have. But uh I also think like if you look at the like the goats in our sport, and I I want to call out it's very special and cool that in trail running um men and women end up being legends because I think in a lot of other sports, like that isn't necessarily the case. Uh I'm just coming off of like a ski summit where like there was a lot of talk about men's be men becoming legends and like women becoming moms and kind of ending up in a secure obscurity. Solomon has like legends in the sport that are at a pretty nice level. I think getting any mentorship from Francois or Courtney would be all time.

SPEAKER_05 58:05

I think I'm going Solomon next gen. And I think it probably comes down to personality type too, but I think that I need oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Are you choosing that because of the good dental insurance in Europe? Because that's why I choose it.

SPEAKER_05 58:18

I think I'm choosing it because I need and knowing my personality, I need very I need like a militaristic environment with very strict guardrails and basically no optionality in my day-to-day. Like I need to be waking up and like they're telling me to like make my bed and then like eat a very certain breakfast and then like stand at the edge of my bed like in rank and file, like put the gun together, you know.

SPEAKER_04 58:41

Now Jeff's like, wait a minute, that's what this is gonna be like.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Uh I I think we we should at least shine some light on like Andy Wacker and Trail Team, visionary, hearing, hearing, uh, hearing him think through all of that uh in 2021, 2022, and like trying to build that project. Like when he launched Trail Team, he was on his, I think, final year as a Solomon-sponsored athlete. And I know he had sought out, you know, connection for that project there. And like the the fact that he went forward with it as it is to try to create this pipeline for uh for NCA athletes transitioning into Trail, like it's worth revisiting the folks who have gone through the trail team because he's already having awesome success. And like whether or not they attribute that success to the trail team or not, um, I guess we'll we'll see over the years. But um, the one I the one I hope that we continue to see uh stay alive and grow and not be a one-year uh experiment is the trail team for sure.

SPEAKER_04 59:46

I do feel like the trailhouse would probably be the most fun. Like not if there's content creation requirements. Well, because I'm I'm picturing like Matt, you know, sitting down in the the interview room and him being like, all right, so I just gave Jeff 20 by 20 minute uphill tempo at VO2 Max. And I'm really curious to see if he says anything or if he just goes out and tries to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

And then they like you go over to you, like going up like Cinitas, being like and just like like if the camera just turns and I'm just floating down Boulder River in an inner tube, it's exactly opted out.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:29

And like if there's not a huge amount of prank wars going on in the city. So this is just gonna be a reality TV show. Well, that's that's like kind of where most of my expectations are. I mean, like they should get better at running, but I also fully expect like if someone's showing up in some Nike shoes, like one of their like their left foot air units are all pop the morning of the long run. Like that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:54

If we were in trail as Brett, we'd go out on a run. And when you're not looking, I would slap a sticker on the back of your pack and it would say, Don't tailgate me, I'm on high carb. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

Like that's part of the expectations that come out of uh advertising, part of your development program being uh content-rich as well. A question that I did have um when you put up this whole prompt was why are there like four very distinct like development co-located teams and there aren't any of that on the actual professional level? Great question.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:36

Where my mind went first is the this generation that is coming in at the development level, it will be that way for the rest of their careers. So it's almost like we're letting the current generation phase out. This new generation comes in, and that's just going to be the norm once they graduate. I think you'll see a co-location and a standardization just be like the new model while they're in their career. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

That's a good point. I've definitely seen on some, like there's some obvious examples, but uh on the pro level, like also runners just relocating to where they have a really quality training partner that they're excited about that type of collaboration. Um, we see it right now with some of my on teammates in Europe just being like, actually, we're just gonna both be in honesty or the same spot. Um, John Albin and Killian's like a kind of obvious example. But even Jim and and Francois of like, I can learn from this person, I'm interested in learning from this person. My sponsor pays me enough. I bet if you told Jim that he was gonna have to be on a co-located team uh, you know, in San Francisco and he has the choice to go um live in a rush and train with Francois, he'd probably not want to do the co-located team thing. So I I do think there's also a like the key part of this question and prompt for me is like if you were 22. Um as a 35 year old, I'm not interested in relocating uh my life for for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:08

That's a good point. Yeah, 22 makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:11

All right, before we I think we should close with just like gear or content fine. So maybe we have time for one more like longer debate thing. Do you guys want to do the Scott Fobble one or do you want to do the team rankings one?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:25

Oh, those are both pretty fun. I mean, of course. We should do the Scott. Let's do the Scott one. I thought that was interesting. And I've actually. You're not the first person who's well, no, you are the first person. You're not the only person that sent me that.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:40

Can I give people some context first?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:42

No, we should just talk about it in secrecy. And if you know, you know. Okay, so Scott.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

I feel connected to Scott Fobble because he also really likes burritos. Mm-hmm. Yep. And he's a movie, and he's a movie connoisseur.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:56

Uh okay. Uh Scott put out a series of well, are they called X's now? Can we please just call them tweets? Tweets. Okay, Scott. Scott put out a series of tweets uh earlier today, I think. Essentially, this was reacting to this weekend's Boston Marathon. He argues that super shoes ultimately may be one of the worst things for compelling elite marathons. His claim is that the shoes have effectively shortened the marathon by removing the metabolic toll that used to punish aggressive racing for some. Athletes can still spike lactate by going out too fast, but they no longer experience as often the late race, like calf seizures, for example, that were more common pre-2020. And then he says that the absence of these real blow-up penalties, they flatten tactics, they let runners attack for all 42 kilometers, eliminate drama, all that stuff that makes elite marathons worth watching. That's sort of the overhead summary. Um I don't know, Brett, what do you think?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:57

Well, my initial my first text back was like, oh, that sounds like someone who uh doesn't didn't respond too well to super shoes. Like maybe in the lab he didn't get as much of an edge over everyone else. Uh as I thought about it more, the actually the more I disagreed with that. Yes, you do eliminate the whole like Boston's a little bit less scary because of super shoes. You know, you you don't get the just the sheer muscle damage, even in the first mile, that first downhill mile that you did in old school racing flats, because these super shoes are amazingly cushioned. And I also think that in another way, it makes the race a little bit more um I don't know what the right word is, like accessible for like there's a lot of elite runners now that would not have been elite pre super shoes because you genetically just had to have the biomechanics and be able to handle that kind of pounding. And I like when there's more people. On the start line that could win the race. And if the shoes give those opportunities to some people that might not have been able to handle the rigors of marathon training in more minimal racing flats, I think that makes the racing more fun. So Scott Fobel is just an elitist who has good good biomechanics, apparently. Where do you come down, Jeff?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

I I come from like I I think back to being a young ski racer and before shaped skis, skis were just straight. They still had some flex, but like they were straight skis. Yeah, dude. Uh and you needed to be able to turn the skis. And like it was a smaller person's sport because you needed to be nimble, you needed to be quick, especially in a discipline like Solom or GS. And uh parabolic or like shaped skis made it so that like the big boys who had a lot more weight all of a sudden could turn the skis and they had gravity and uh you know other advantages at their side. And it it fully changed skiing um in a in a way where like I think of the the pre and the post and the athlete, like they're still, don't get me wrong, like Michaela Schiffrin would still be Mikhaila Schiffin because there are certain athletes that were incredibly talented and they made it work regardless. But your your comment on the biomechanics of like, you know, like Pre was that good of a runner, would he be a super responder? Like, you know, that's that's going back to like the development of like mid-sole foams being like the major advantage there. But yeah, I I I bet there's different body types and stuff that are being uh kind of rewarded from super shoes, and that you might like you might see runners who just have outright strength, but maybe they don't have the right length Achilles or whatnot to be like a naturally gifted runner without super thick foam and and carbon plates. Um so I that that's kind of what piques my curiosity is like I do think there's a pre and a post uh super shoes. And like Scott Fobble is someone who kind of bridged that, right? He ran 207 and 207 and 207 and 207, or it was either 207 or he got seventh place. He the number seven and Scott Fobble are two in my mind. Maybe both. Yeah. But like like that that huge jump didn't uh might not have happened for him. Like the there isn't any like real going back. I don't think we're gonna see super shoes being banned. His argument that like it ruined the marathon, I don't know if that's fully fair. I I still think there's been really exciting racing in the super shoe era.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:53

Um I yeah, I was gonna say, like he his reading between the lines, he but he's basically saying that like the the because there's like a lower cr uh cost to being aggressive, everyone runs the same strategy.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:09

I mean Yeah, I was like, I don't know if that's totally true. It's just a different strategy. I mean it's I don't know, it still kind of seems the same to me. Like I don't think the tactics of marathon racing has changed that much.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

Is the argument that like high carb fueling ruined ultrarunning because you don't have as much blow-ups in the second half of the race? Like the yeah, I I think it's an advancement in technology. I think it's a hot take, and um I'm sure we can pick it apart.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:44

With the nutrition stuff, not everyone, I mean, as it turns out, at least from what I can tell, not everyone is capable of handling these higher intake rates per hour. So we're still seeing people with nutritional issues just like on the opposite end of the spectrum. So that still seems to be like a crazy frontier at the moment. Whereas people step into super shoes for the most part, it's better than what they were using before.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:06

Yeah, not too many people are worse when they put on super shoes. But yeah, I mean, that's just kind of the development of the sport. I mean, you can make that same argument for most sports that have an amount of tech in it. People be like, oh, I cycling was dead when they got rid of the down tube shifter. I don't know. Some crazy performances at Boston this weekend, by the way. Dude, yeah. Charles Hicks. It was I mean, it was fast. It was the guy that ran 203.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:40

What was his name? I'm a blanket on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:44

Win this year.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:45

Top American. Yeah, this year. Top American.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

Oh, um Zoo Hair. Zoo Hair. Talby. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing run by Zoo Hair. He was like in it to win it. He's gosh, he's so close to being I mean, he's so close to being one of the best marathoners in the world. It's when you break down the splits of how you you have to win a marathon these days where you have to have legit really good world-class 10k speed at the end of these races. Um yeah, his run was phenomenal. Uh, I did write down, I think my favorite Boston marathon performance was Cody Cleven. Yeah. Trail amazing. Trail, trail. I mean, she did run pretty like decently fast in college, but not like otherworldly. I think uh from the 30 second Google search, I found like about a 1640 5k PR. So it's like, all right. Um had some really, really good year of trail racing in 2024, uh, a little rough in 25, and then ran ran OCC actually uh this past year, did a marathon build to CIM, ran 229, and then doubled that down into a Boston build. She was leading the race, like or like in the lead pack at the front, keeping the pace relatively honest, uh, and was in like in it to win it through almost 20 miles. And I was watching, I don't know if they said anything on the regular race broadcast because I had the Sidious Meg um alternate commentary up, but they were given, they were like, Who who is this person? And then they were like Googling coding, they're like, This is a trail runner. Like, they're like, No wonder she's wearing split shorts. Like, she's and then they were just like, This is amazing. And um, and then Leah was telling me that she's been training with Ed Eystone's group and with the whole BYU group. And then uh, yeah, she was like, You need to go look at her strawberry, and like her probably last eight weeks of training for Boston, her average was like 130 miles a week. Uh just like now that I look at it, I'm like, oh yeah, you absolutely deserve to run, you know, 224 at Boston.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:11

And the story gets even more interesting. She has signed up for the broken arrow 46k. Oh, wow, that's sick.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

Um but I mean, and you know, the person who finished in front of the next American who finished in front of her made the Olympic team.

unknown 1:13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:30

You know, it's like she's right in it for thinking about Olympics. Um so I just thought that was really cool. I also saw one of the logos on her singlet was the Utah The Run Elite program. It was the rep logo, which that's a pretty is Utah's is Utah still the only state that has something like that.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:52

I believe so. I haven't heard of it. That's a Jared Ward initiative too. He was really great at spearheading that and working with government. And I think he even got in like Spencer Cox's ear, who's our governor, and he's a big fan of it. And yeah, it's been pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:08

So yeah, I just wanted to lay some respect on that performance because that was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:16

Um okay, I've got like a content slash gear pick of the week, but do you guys have anything else that you want to bring up before we start to close out? Any mystery topics, any points from previous stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:29

I think just uh yeah, content gear of the week as well. Um, I think my mystery topic is too too cumbersome to dive into.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:37

Let's do it for another, we'll do it for another episode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

What's your content? Uh it came out of both uh the Max Jolliffe ritual as well as your conversation with Max that uh that's just published. And that is just trying is cool. And I like I think I had that revelation while sitting with you guys before the 2023 Western states, where I was like, I care, and I'm like, I'm interested in trying and I put so much work into this and like looking at other people who are trying and really like digging deep and um like commitment's cool. And there's like I definitely came from this same space of like uh, you know, the the style with ease or um effortlessness or like intentionally looking like I wasn't caring by like partying a bunch, uh, was kind of like how I how I like to roll. And that that moment when I decided that like trying is cool and like I'm gonna start uh looking up to people who are like trying really hard. It it was a major reframing for me. And I thought Max did a good job of uh of emphasizing that.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:49

Love it. How about you, Brett? Any content call us or gear call us, anything? Anything CP related even?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:57

Um not off the top of my head, no. Um only thing running hats are back in stock.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:07

Well then get your browsers ready because I have to show you guys my gear pick of the week. Climatichealth.com. If you can go to climatic health.com.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:17

Oh, I was thinking you were just gonna throw a link into the chat. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:20

Dude, I can I can't multitask.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:22

How do you spell climatic?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:24

C-L-I-M-A-T-I-C Health.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:28

For kids, I did not get accepted to their elite program.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:36

Okay, the tagline is daily lung health in one deep breath. And L Max is Climatic Health's first product launched in late spring 26 with early access open starting yesterday, or yeah, yesterday. It's a daily inhaled dry powder made from five all-natural ingredients, including sodium bicarbonate, citric acid, and the plant extract for scolin, delivered via their proprietary device. Looks like an inhaler. One breath per morning, under 30 seconds, not a drug, not vapor, non-prescription. It's water compliant. And one last thing here, they did a five-week trial with endurance athletes who reported 98% feeling easier breathing during workouts and a 6% average time trial improvement, 80% showing HRV improvement within two weeks. Okay, that's all amazing. The 6% average time trial improvement is wild because like I think super shoes give you 4%. So this breathing device is apparently better than super shoes.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:37

And then this was also while they were training. I'm just saying, like this this experiment, like they were also training and with the goal of improving. Um I'm not gonna try and pick this thing down.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:49

And has not been peer-reviewed yet. This has not been peer-reviewed yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:53

I when when you said that, I was like, this like it's it's intriguing enough. And I saw it was like, uh like, you know, apply to like uh, you know, kind of get early access or like uh try it out. And I think the the HRV is like a key thing they're trying to understand. And like I don't measure HRV. I I actually just don't really like wearables at all. Um, so not like not willing to sleep with a heart rate monitor or like, you know, wake up and put one on first thing in the morning. Uh, but it seems like HRV is one of like the key metrics they're really trying to um better understand with their product. Um but in that little application, it was like, what do you currently measure? And of like the 10 things, the only things I measured were uh you know heart rate and pace while running. So I was like, I I don't I don't think I'm the right fit. Cool you apply this. It's ridiculous. I don't I mean it seems cool. It seems like a break it's like a take on albuterol inhaler, but like give me alb give me albuterol every day of the week over this.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:00

Are you kidding me? Like I don't want your five ingredient hippy-dippy formula when I know albuterol just opens up the with the alveoli in my lungs. Like I took basic anatomy in high school. I know that lungs are pretty good at filtering out the stuff you breathe in. Like uh I just I like the website. Step one, activate. Step two, inhale. Step three, exhale, as if that wasn't expected after inhaling.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

Yeah, don't miss that last step.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:35

Don't forget step three or bad thing here. We're not liable if you skip one of these steps.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:45

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:47

Um would I try it? Would I review it on conversational pace? 100%. You would okay, great. Great sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:52

Yeah, I I mean I think I think it's uh I think it's intriguing. Um the like good for them for going making something that's subscripts subscription model. Those subscription model things, they really they really pull you in and$55 in you getting your money.$55 a month. For current revenue.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:10

It's if you if you subscribe, it's fifty-five dollars a month. If you do a one-time purchase, it's$95 for 28 puffs because I I cannot believe their one-month supply is the shortest month of the year. If that's not a red flag, I don't know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:28

I mean, I think just thinking$55 a month, it's like, all right, so like each inhale that I do with this inhaler is you know effectively$2. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:37

I mean, you taking Finn, are you taking this or ketones?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:40

They get that year-round.

unknown 1:20:42

Dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:43

Yeah, yeah. You taking climatic, Nomeo, ketones, or bicarb.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:50

You tried Nomeo, right, Jeff? I did. I tried Nomeo.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

I tried it a couple times, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:54

Oh, I haven't tried Nomeo yet. I haven't been, I haven't gotten on the broccoli juice.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:58

What do you think? I still can't quite fathom. Like, I think the science is all there and stuff. I can't fathom how much broccoli sprouts that is like in a field in such a tiny, tiny container. Um, but yeah, I think the like there's certain things that I look at and it totally depends on the stress in my life. For Nomeo, it's three hours before exercise or one and a half hours before bed. Like if you want the exercise benefit or the recovery benefit. Like, you know, let's look at a 7 a.m. start. Like, am I getting up at 3 30 and brushing my teeth and then downing a broccoli shot at four? And then like I think the added stress that um it puts on my plate, like is the thing that I I'm like, you know, I I don't think any of these, especially like bicarb was really freaking hard for me to try to like explain. That's another one of those things. You gotta do it like so far before and like with food or without food. And like I just have a pretty basic routine, which is wake up, vitamins, coffee, like see this food, go run.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:14

This is just a a once in the morning puff. So you're taking climatic over all these. Well, just from a convenience standpoint, you just wake up and and hit your little blue inhaler.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:27

What about uh I've I'm still a ketone virgin. I've never tried ketones.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:33

I I like I like the ketones for the mental clarity.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:38

I love ketones.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:39

I like high carb, high caffeine, high ketones. I like the the just the yeah, the the mental clarity that you get from the ketones. I feel like I'm a little bit better of a thinker, which that's where I think the performance gains are from an ultra standpoint. Interesting that there's bicarb in this. Yeah, I don't there's yeah, I'm I'm just having a hard time wrapping my brain around uh just inhaling arginine, sodium, bicarbonate, citrate, foreskelin, which skimming it looked like foreskin and then the theobroman. Did you see?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:17

I'm just like, I'm not inhaling foreskin into my lungs. I heard it the same way. Well, here's here's my one comment on bicarb is like the way that Morton wants you to consume bicarb is not enjoyable by any means. And it's like put this gelatin and like all of like the little pills, like you know, little uh seeds or whatever, like into your mouth. No matter what you do, don't chew any of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:40

And you're like like just like Do you know what the bicarb hack is for that? Boba straw.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:47

There you go. Yeah, you just drink it. Maybe inhaling bicarb like is maybe it's preferable to uh the the gelatinous seeds.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:59

I think I'm going climactic health because the w entire mountain west west coast is gonna be on fire this summer and air quality is gonna suck. Yeah. So I'm inhaling this every morning, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:09

There's like more, there's probably more actual like peer-reviewed studies that just drinking green tea can help clear out your lungs. Um more than well, maybe not more than this, maybe not yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:21

This is HSA FSA eligible as green tea.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:25

As a small business owner and independent contractor, I do not have an HSA.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:32

So I will say that I'm also don't have one. Sorry, man. Uh there their slogan of made for those of us who breathe, that's pretty inclusive. You know, going back to Nike and ACG and they're like runners welcome, walkers tolerated. Is this it doesn't say, you know, breathers welcome, yeah, uh you know, mouth breathers tolerated. We don't discriminate. Um there are some recognizable triathletes and figures that they're at least using their name, image, and likeness on here, which is always interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:06

Yeah, I saw Sarah Hall is in one of the athletes, but I also know Sarah Hall is on most of the trendy subs.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

Including trail running, right? Sarah Hall?

unknown 1:25:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:19

Announcing that she's trail curious.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:22

Yeah. Full intentions to go to trails probably after the 2028 trials, I imagine. At the age of 45.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:35

Okay. I think we should wrap it up. I'm gonna ask one question, and we should just have a yes or no one-word answer from all of us. The question is yes or no, starting with you, Brett, will ACG be here in the same or bigger capacity in five years in trail? Yes. Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:57

In two years or in five years? Five. Five. So after the Olympic cycle.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:04

We're nearly to the next Olympic cycle. Oh. Yes, I think so too.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:10

Yes, from me. All right. Great episode. Thanks, Jeff. Thanks, Brett. And there was I'm looking at a bunch of topics we didn't even cover today, so that just means we got good fodder for the next one. Thanks, guys. Cheers.