Tom Evans Wild Treadmill Workout, Western States Sleeper Picks + Ski Brands Taking Over Trail? (Long Run Archives #40)

Brett Hornig and Jeff Colt join the show to unpack Tom Evans' wild treadmill workout, our Western States sleeper picks, the ski brands entering the trail market, Broken Arrow hype, and whether the athlete-media landscape is changing.

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• Janji - running gear that goes the distance
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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome back, or welcome to the Single Track Podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and before we get started, I wanted to pay our respects to Megan Kimmel. Earlier today, just before recording, we learned of her tragic passing. She was just 45 years old. We don't know any of the details. No official cause of death has been disclosed. But for those that follow the sport closely, especially in the 2010s, you know of her illustrious career among many other accolades. She was the two-time winner of the Broken Arrow 46K, a Pikes Peak Marathon champion, a TNF 50 San Francisco champion, Marathon Du Mont-Blanc champion, sky racing champion, among many other contributions. She'll be remembered as one of the most talented and decorated and influential mountain runners of the decade for sure. Our thoughts and prayers are with her family at this time. We are back. This is the 40th. That's right, 4-0, the 40th edition of the Long Run Archives, joined by friends, colleagues, Brett Hornig, Jeff Colt. Brett, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

40 episodes. That's that's a lot of long run. I mean, if we're 90 minutes to two hours per episode, you could now cue up all 40 and run a decent sized ultra marathon and listen to us the whole time with no repeats.

SPEAKER_05 1:29

One of the questions I have is how, like, I think we've had new stuff each episode, but have there been any, have we kind of gotten into the spin zone and just started to recycle talking points? I have no idea. Now I'm self-conscious because have you guys ever heard of Judd Apatow?

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Because you guys have recycled Judd Apatau movie quotes, like it is, you know, number one plastics filling a full recycling bin every episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

You know what else has gotten thrown on the um the Long Run archives? Hamster wheel. Finn, have you ever checked out Keto, Ecuador?

SPEAKER_05 2:05

It is the next great training location for hard rock.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

For hard check it. Maybe even better than Silverton. Keto is to Hard Rock what allegedly flag is to Western states. Pretty much, yeah. So the transitive property specificity. Other than that, though, probably no duplicate. No duplicates. No duplicates of anything.

SPEAKER_05 2:29

It's pretty solid. Four-zero. Uh Jeff, how about you? How are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Doing pretty well. Just had a week back in New Hampshire and the East Coast, which was fun. Had some good soul-filling uh runs back there. And yeah, home in Colorado for a little bit, wrapping up some housework and whatnot, and then off to support the Jeff McGavro at Western States. So got an exciting little uh pipeline building up to High Lonesome in mid-July here.

SPEAKER_05 2:59

Well, you know, let's not bury the lead. Let's talk about where is the ceiling for Jeff at Western States, Jeff?

SPEAKER_04 3:05

I think it's super high. I think Jeff is a combination of many, like a couple decades of building uh his fitness. I think he has exceptional coaching. I think he has amazing resources in Missoula. Um, last year he would tell you, and I think I would at least back him up on this, that he had the best heat preparation of anyone going into Western states, considering uh his good friend Peanut is doing his PhD on heat adaptation and Jeff was his study subject. Um yeah, the thing that gets me most amped about betting on Jeff McGavro is after uh after he got his Javelina golden ticket, he was talking about his training going into that. And he was like, Man, I've just been running 30, 35 miles like every day of the week type of deal. And I'm just loving it. Running is so fun. And I think that running is so fun attitude, even when you're training for like a hundred mile flat race, is uh a real kind of yeah, ace up the sleeve. If you still think that the kind of most mundane uh or maybe the most mentally fatiguing training is really fun, that's uh that's gonna be playing in your favor. So uh I think Jeff could win this race. And I think there's a lot to unpack there. But Jeff McGavro having the fastest debut ever was not a whoopsie. That was a like meticulously calculated pacing Adam Peterman, pacing me twice, knowing that course as intimately as possible. And uh, if you follow Jeff on Substack, you'll know that he spent a week out there training this year. And like now his best friend and you know, kind of comrade out there on race day is the Western States course because he feels like he knows it like the back of his hand. So I don't know if anyone quite puts um his level of attention and work in. I know there's other folks out there. I think uh getting to interview Jim last year was pretty enlightening for all of us, but Jeff, uh Jeff shows a similar level of commitment and dedication, and uh he also has like an awareness of you know, this is the year. In the same way I think Caleb and Chris last year were like, this is the year for me to make my mark. I think uh I think Jeff's thinking on a similar page.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

That's such a good point about like Jeff enjoying the training, even leading up to something like Havelina, because there are so many spots on the Western States course where in like 10 seconds it can all of a sudden go from a lot of fun to zero fun, sir. Like very fast. And if if you are really good at not letting that spiral, that is a huge superpower out there.

SPEAKER_05 5:57

Uh Jeff, you mentioned Peanut, which is a great call-out. I and Brett, you'll find this fascinating too. I'm I might butcher this, but I heard that I don't know if it was last year or this year, Peanut is developing this algorithm for like the proper number of ice cubes to put in the bandana at Western says, like factoring in like weight considerations and stuff. That doesn't surprise me at all. I don't know if you can corroborate this, but I've heard they've gotten like super deep on ice research.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Well, Jeff said he probably over like he had too much ice because he was getting to the next spot still with a lot of ice. So then he was like, I'm carrying unnecessary weight. So I uh I agree. There's definitely something to that, to figuring out your pace, ice melt relative to the bandana. I mean, of course we'd have to be talking about like ice cube sizes if we're going like the sonic little, you know, gerbil food size ice cubes, those are going to melt faster than you know, if we're just going like the old school freezer tray, but those hurt, you know, there's yeah. Yep, now that I'm actually opening my mouth talking about ice, there's a lot of variables here. Um is there a way to make ice cubes melt slower if you combine other ingredients to the water? I think that like if you salt work on that. If you salt them. When do we just see dry ice out there? No. Yeah. Can you make it cool that burns? But how cool would that look? Just like just steam rising off the apple. Surely there's someone who's listening to this podcast right now who is in vet who is as invested as myself and my two-year-old son to the journey of the big boy steam engine that is making the journey to the East Coast for the first time since the 1940s. Um sorry, hard stop. Tell us what's up. So the big boy is the only, well, so the it's a steam, it's the world's biggest steam engine. Uh, there used to be a whole bunch of them that they used, you know, during the World War II era to move like steel and stuff. There's one left that they brought back out of retirement. It is sick. It's got the loudest just choo-choo train horn in probably the world. Um it's I think it weighs like 1.8 million pounds. It's steam powered. It started over in Northern California a couple months ago. It made its way through the Sierras. It actually went up unassisted, carrying a whole bunch of freight over the Wasatch grade, like old school. Um, had a little pit stop in Wyoming. And now I think it's making its way, I feel like it's making its way to Philadelphia for the 4th of July. Um, but it's like going through New York, and it is like absolutely caught at least my YouTube algorithm by storm. There are so many people out there who are waiting at like iconic bridges and places all over the East Coast now just to watch this train go by. And the only reason I'm talking about this now is because I was thinking about dry ice in an ice bandana and how it looked like a steam engine. So um, yeah, go check out the big boy. I'm really trying to find some like sick big boy merch because I just want to picture that train and like big boy, I can just see it like graffitied on a wall with like a train in the foreground.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

Um that makes me so happy, Brent. Brent, sorry, all of this, all of this makes me so happy.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah, it's such a sick train.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

You guys know the the like whatever Reels Instagram creator who like wears the head mount camera and like looks at locomotives in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah, he got to ride the ACG train for the Olympics.

unknown 9:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Caleb got to talk to me. He has such he has a really cool car. Turns out he's a car guy.

SPEAKER_05 9:51

Yes, he is.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:52

Precision fuel and hydration, as you well know by now, they are the official nutrition partner of the show. They'll also be a key partner on our Western States coverage later this month. And in case you weren't aware, they have a pretty stacked athlete lineup on that start line. Uh, let's see, on the women's side, you've got Martina Milnarchik, Lottie Brinks, Lauren Pieritz, Sarah Humboldt, Ingild Kasperson, who's a new signing. On the men's side, you've got Dan Jones, Hayden Hawks, Jeff McGavro, Jeshran Small, Anthony Costales, and Jordan Bramblett. Chances are high that we'll see at least a few athletes on the podiums, maybe even uh one or two winning the thing. Certainly worked for Caleb Olsen at this race last year. Go check out their stuff, precisionhydration.com, and feel free to use code SINGLETRACK at checkout for 15% off your next order. This episode is also brought to you by John G and their new Ultra Hauler Supertote. What a name. If you crew travel to races, or you sometimes live out of a gear bag like I do, uh, like I did, I should say, when I traveled to Missoula, Montana earlier this month on a work trip. You know the problem. You're going for a run, maybe it's raining outside. Post run, the muddy shoes end up next to clean kit. You find yourself changing in a parking lot doing the one-foot balancing act thing. And uh maybe you can never find anything that you need in the bottom of the bag. Well, guess what? The ultra hauler fixes a lot of that stuff. 40 liters that expands, a high contrast lining so that you can actually see what you need, a mesh outer pocket to keep the wet and dirty stuff separate. That's awesome. I think this is the coolest part. A built-in change map you can take out of the bag and it's got a waterproof base. Um, yeah, three carry options as well, a sleeve that slides right over your roller for uh airport travel. Check it all out. John G.com. That's J-A-N-J-I. Okay. That was amazing. Let's go to let's go. Let's we're nine minutes in, let's get to this agenda. So classic. First off, first off, this is the reel that, and I have it pull up here. It's got 31,000 shares on Instagram, which is wild, but you guys know it. Tom Evans is on his Woodway treadmill set to a pretty high grade. He's got a weighted vest on. I think he has one of those, like, is it the Omeo headbands he's wearing? Like he's yeah, with the crystals. With the crystals. I don't know what shoes he's in, Brett. This is a CP question, but he's running downhill on the treadmill at a pretty steep grade. And I mean, the comments section lit up so many opinions in all these directions. Uh Brett, when you saw this, your reaction.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Okay. When I first saw it, my reaction was at first I couldn't tell if he was running down or running backwards. Because that treadmill belt is going the opposite direction from what a treadmill belt normally goes. So, like, that's a a special Easter egg about that woodweigh treadmill is you can actually set it to go in reverse. And it's like actually a specific decline mode. Like, he didn't jerry rig that out. There was just so much to break down in that video, like you said. Um, you know, like he had the the space crystals headband, I think he was rocking a flak jacket, ankle weights, and were running downhill at a very steep incline on a treadmill. And um, you know, it's not like the whole I don't know if it was in the comments or just in the the body uh of the reel. Basically saying like the ankle weights were to slow the movement of the feet down so that way your appropriate reception and basically your agility is higher when you're actually running outside on the more technical terrain. And then I guess we're just adding extra weight to load the muscles, the joints, etc., more it's some real like Vegeta training in the the Bulma's dad's anti degravity chamber where he's just at like 100 G. Um Jeff, does your treadmill back there do that?

SPEAKER_04 14:13

My my treadmill does not do that. And I also I Do you wish it did? I don't know if I wish it did. I I once had a very wise person named Katie Scheid tell me that uh her training was really boring but really effective. And that like hit me in a in a way that it's like, all right, you don't really need to do crazy fancy things to have great outcomes, but also I have a pretty busy life. And like I, you know, if if there's gonna be like a a subset of like professional trail runners that still have full-time jobs and are still like working class trail runners, like that's definitely where I fall. And I have no no no time or intention to put on a rucking vest or ankle weights and run down my treadville in reverse. Um so much of my training is like also my mental health of like getting outside. So I guess that's like if you do have all the time in the world to train, you can make it pretty convoluted. Um yeah. You know, his his weighted training uh around UTMB, like clearly it was successful, but also like I look at Francois or I even look at Jim and kind of wonder like what if he just went hiking more? Um, would he have a similar return? But great for social media and Instagram if that's you know what you're into.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah. I mean, uh thing caught the internet on fire. I've just never even thought about a lot of the elements in that reel uh from a training standpoint. So like I don't even know whether to have, I don't even have an opinion on whether I think it's a good idea or not. Like gut instinct is like a bad idea for probably just about everybody. But like, you know, when you have someone like Tom who is at like the very top 0.1% of our sport, maybe that is the slight extra or different piece of stimulus that he needs to get something out of his training. I think for most people, this is probably one of those, one of those no-nos.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Um I also think to like Zach, Mathieu, and Germain last year, like, like, yeah, we were all running uphill at the same speed as Ludo, but on the downhills, Ludo was just running so much faster than us. Like, there's no way this is sustainable. And then he just sustained it. Like, you know, from a calculus of I want to beat Ludo at Hard Rock, and Ludo's such a machine at running downhill, maybe you need to elevate it and uh add more, you know, potential tools to the training quiver. Um I would like to see Ludo's kind of response reel of like what he's doing to get so damn resilient at running downhill, because I have a feeling it's just running downhill.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

You know what Ludo's doing right now, actually? He is doing his first soft rock uh with a with a big pack. Okay. So he's doing the same thing, but at altitude on the hard rock horse. And then I think he's going to do another soft rock a little bit closer to race day because the last few years he's done uh two soft rocks prior to race day. Which he does in I think three, it's a three day and he does it twice.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

If there's gonna be one that I choose, like the soft rock in the San Juan, sounds way more enjoyable than whatever you're telling me.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

You wouldn't you wouldn't even consider maybe just throwing on the flag jacket and running downhill on your treadmill instead. Um on the other hand, you know, one thing that Tom has always been a big kind of fan of is training from his home base and seems like he is most comfortable at home. And like I Finn, maybe I texted you this was like, if you've got the money for the setup that he has, you also have the money to just pay for a couple big training camps throughout the year to go run in the mountains. Because it's like, what are we talking? Like $20,000 treadmill?

SPEAKER_04 18:31

Yeah. I don't think the woodway naturally goes up that high. No, I think that's a specialized, like custom wood way on top of that. Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah. So like we're looking like hyper specific. 30K. Yeah. Exactly. Like you can you can fly to mountains for that, but if you just simply do better training from home, even if that means not being in the big mountains, then yeah, that can this can be this can be a solution.

SPEAKER_04 19:00

Um I wouldn't be surprised if he is doing quite a bit of lactate testing and like that is way easier in a controlled environment, like on a treadmill. I would be surprised if Ludo was doing any of that. Um, like I I think you kind of have these, if we're gonna position hard rock as like, you know, Ludo, like the super experienced, like, you know, kind of veteran who has a pretty simple recipe versus like the the more data-driven um challenger in in Tom. But yeah, I think the the controlled environment of uh treadmill is is great for testing different stimuluses. It's great for recording, you know, reels for social media.

SPEAKER_05 19:49

So I I think I think that was one of the anxieties of some of the pro athletes, the fellow pro athletes that commented. Basically, the question that they were asking themselves after watching this reel were was how much of the preparation for our sport can be completely simulated in a home gym, either without any trade-off or possibly creating even advantage for the floor. Yeah, what if it's natural?

SPEAKER_01 20:13

That's like worst case scenario is what if this is better? That's that was and then you and then you hear people being like, if that's what it takes, I quit the sport.

SPEAKER_05 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Cycling, cycling like is in a similar scenario right now where they're like, we don't get to do our seven-hour zone one coffee shop rides. Instead, they're three hours zone two. We're slamming 140 grams of carbs an hour, like you're kind of tired and cranky all the time. We're on the indoor trainer, being very specific with everything, because that's what it takes if you want to win these races. Yeah, like the Wait, so you think you think actually this is the future, Brett? Like you you will help this. That's what I'm saying. I was like I don't want it to be. But cycling, but cycling indicates it's gonna go in that direction. For at least that part of cycling, like maybe hard rock is different enough than say, like winning like the Tour de France or like road cycling stage racing. Like, yeah, maybe it's like because the tour, the tour is still, you know, three weeks of what, like three to five hour stages. Maybe that's similar sort of equation still doesn't equate to a 22-hour hard rock. I don't know. Like, yeah, I don't I'm really curious. I'm like it yeah, definitely upped my curiosity for Tom at Hard Rock because it's just like he's doing something that I've never seen before. But yeah, I would I would have more questions if if this worked really well.

SPEAKER_05 21:56

For me, the bottom line, just building off that. There for someone of Tom's stature in our sport, I can't think of anyone else that is at such a geographic disadvantage. I know he goes on plenty of training camps, and I'm sure there are intangible benefits to being based where he is in the UK. But for what he's focusing on at this juncture in his career, it's amazing that he's performing at the level he's performing at with like the day-to-day geographic disadvantage. While we talk about like flags benefits and we extole Boulder and Salt Lake City and all these like classic mountain towns arenas to train in, like he's getting it done. And it's amazing to me.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

One dark thought maybe Brett's onto something with that being the future, especially in Salt Lake. If you know air quality keeps getting so bad, you're gonna want that setup then. You're gonna want to have it inside so you can train in the summer with all that inversion.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Um Yeah, I mean, I've got my fire season set up here. Every once in a while we might get a smoky month. So then, like, I'm just gonna be on the treadmill.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Which brings up heat pump sponsors. Like trying to get a good heat pump for AC and air filtering, like trying to get in touch with Lennox or Mitsubishi, these could be the real future of our sport.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah, like moving beyond the sauna sponsorship. Like I've just got the full-on HVAC.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

The the the future is Tamworth New Hampshire. We've already discussed this. Okay. Next up, Rory Link. Oh, we have a lot to talk about Broken Arrow, but maybe the first one here. Rory Linkletter is on the start line for Broken Arrow. Brett, you put this on my radar like a month ago when you were listening to Coffee Club. Uh I have a couple questions. I mean, one, yeah, for you, Brett, are the floodgates opening?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

I'm curious if it I can't tell if they're either have already been opened or they're still like very shut. Because I don't know if there will ever be like a all of a sudden we see like an exponential amount of athletes like this making their way to trail. Maybe what we might need to see is like Molly to like successfully come back to Rhodes and like PR in the marathon or something if she wants to. You know what I mean? Or like, you know, Rory to do something. I mean, I think I think uh the ascent at Broken Arrow is pretty low risk for him as a marathoner in terms of a race, because he says he said in a lot of the training that he does at a flag stuff, like one of his staple workouts is the hill climb up the um the service road at the uh the big ski area at a flag stuff. Snowball. Snowball, yeah. Like he's done the snowball. He's like, I've done that climb like more times than I can count. And he like knows all the names of everyone on the leaderboard and the crown time and all that stuff. So it's like what what I think would be uh would get more people of his caliber with the confidence that they can come to trail and and then leave and then come back, you know, and kind of be able to switch. You know, I think Allie Ostrander and like Grayson Murphy, especially Grayson, has been some of the best examples of showing that they can go back and forth. Um Ninka. Ninka Brinkman, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

Um being the best trail runner in the world and running uh whatever at 220. Did you run sub 220 or 223?

SPEAKER_05 25:29

Yeah, 221 or two, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Yeah I don't know. I I kind of push back a little bit, Brett. Like I think Rory initially I saw a tweet, right? Can anyone get me a bib for Western States this year? Like asking for meat. And like Western States doesn't even have prize money.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:48

Thinking about like comrades last week and the prize money at comrades, the prize money at Broken Arrow, like to Lean on Coffee Club, Morgan McDonald ran 1302. They just changed the standard to whatever, 1250, 50, 1248, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

And he's like, well, I didn't make it at 13. Like, can I pivot to this other discipline, have more success, actually get prize money, and like potentially have as much or more value for my sponsor, um, or potentially like different sponsors. I think it's cool that Rory's trying broken arrow. I'm very hopeful that it's not his only testing of the waters. Um he's a 206 marathoner. Like, I I don't know if the validation needs to be they come to trail, they succeed, and they go back to road and continue succeeding. I think the validation is you come to trail, you succeed, and you say, I don't ever have to go back to road. Um and that's what kind of fires me up. Like if we're, you know, talking the like Molly Seidel effect, and I'm you know really excited for her race at Western states, but you know, the proof of concept was there at both Bandera and Black Canyon. Uh there's a lot of runners who are at that caliber who like to be making prize money, like you need to be winning diamond leagues. And what if you're running, you know, 10 seconds off the best in the world, but that's putting you out of even contention to get a start at a diamond league. Uh I don't know. I I'm psyched. Rory Link litter for the win. That's that's uh well, that's my vote.

SPEAKER_05 27:41

That was my next okay. So you that's your my next question was gonna be what can we reasonably expect out of Rory at this event? I mean, he's so good at running.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

It's it's it's more that he also has trail experience. Because there's been, you know, whatever. There's been 210 marathoners, 200, like there's been really fast marathoners doing trail races, not having absolute top of the pinnacle of success. But like, I think Rory's got some trail chops, which is pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Mm-hmm. And he and he's expressed like, yeah, like like you said, like almost like a a a cool way of interest to it. Like he the one thing that he said on the Coffee Club podcast was he was like, he really wants to, he really wanted to pace Molly at Western States because he just was just like, uh if I want to be there and I want to see it and I want to experience, like I've seen pictures, and it sounds like one of those things that you just gotta be there and see because it it it is truly so different than anything you'd see in the tracker road worlds.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Um and yeah, he's also I guess he is one that's always gone a little bit against convention. So maybe him making this jump is not uh indicative of a bunch of other people making uh that jump. Um, I feel like thinking way back, he like kind of got in trouble with the NCAA like as a freshman for running a business and like uh promoting his own business, which might have violated some uh like sponsorship laws and stuff. But he's he's always had a bit of a like, I wanna I wanna game the system and do things a little differently. Maybe not to the uh Nick Simmons extent, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:21

Oh no, he's always oh, he's been a cowboy. Like, I think when he was at BYU, he was the only non-Mormon on the team. Uh very similar to if people get the football reference, Jim McMahon, who was a famous quarterback for BYU too. Like I think he's always kind of gone to the beat of his own drum and he can exist sort of in any environment. It's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:38

Yeah. Yeah, super cool. Really exciting.

SPEAKER_04 29:41

Do we want to stay on broken broken arrow for a little bit?

SPEAKER_05 29:44

Yeah. Uh okay. Well, uh actually, Brett had us do predictions, but I want to wait on those for a second. The other thing I had here, just any starting with you, Brett, any other just particular storyline or athlete you're excited about for this weekend?

SPEAKER_01 29:59

I am really curious to see what ACG's first year of sponsoring Broken Arrow looks like. Um like it feels broken air should be a 10 times bigger ordeal than Gorge Waterfalls. And Gorge was pretty, pretty painted over with orange and ACG, all those sorts of stuff. So I'm just I just want to see what kind of marketing activations and orange things they've got going on over there, which kind of then goes into my second piece was is there seriously no live stream? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Wait, I don't I feel like I heard Zach Marion say they were doing something for the Broken Arrow live stream.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

There would have, you there would have been an announcement of sorts like I haven't heard anything yet.

SPEAKER_05 31:02

Um I am seeing nothing scheduled on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel. I only see on the if I go to the Mountain Outpost website, they're promoting the Western States live broadcast and Broken Arrow is not on their list. It's Western States then Hard Rock then High Lonesome, so on so there's nothing scheduled on the Broken Arrow channel either.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

So that was like potentially one of the most competitive trail races on the planet this year. Might even get back-to-back days of most competitive trail races, and the only way to watch it is if you're there.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

It's crazy that as the sport is progressing so fast and we're just seeing innovation over innovation, we could look back at 2026, and this is not just a broken arrow thing, it's sport-wide. We missed so many great moments that we're you were fully capable of covering technology-wise and resource-wise.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

We're gonna have to bootleg stream it on our phones, like uh the final big race in Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift. I mean, they were doing it on their freaking flip phones, and people at the bottom were watching every turn. Why don't we just do that?

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Kudos for that one.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

Uh Tokyo has got like five mentions in the history of Long Run Archives.

SPEAKER_04 32:26

Speaking of-I would have loved to see the Adam Zach Hayden race at Canyons. I think that would have been very, very cool.

SPEAKER_05 32:34

And Keonti and the list goes on.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, I've got one. There's a runner in the 46K named Henry Nadell. Uh he's out of Bend, Oregon. Henry did race, he's raced a couple races now, um, which is cool to see him running because he's the collegiate cycling champion and has represented US with worlds for mountain biking a couple of times. And he grew up in Carbondale and went to CRMS. And every single biking crowned, like pretty much in this valley, belongs to Henry Nadell. Uh, he's got the aerobic engine of like, you know, the the few athletes in our sport, the David Sinclair's, the, the David Norrises, whatnot. Um, this like huge kind of Nordic engine. And uh it's cool to see him now. I think this will be his second or third trail race this year. Uh and like, is he gonna compete for the win in the 46k? I don't think so, but could he be cresting into that top 10? And could we all of a sudden be seeing uh another kind of freak super athlete sink their uh sink their claws into trail running as a sport? I think so, which is that's sick. Got me sighting good name drop. Um the the 46k, I will say, has like a oh sorry, Henry is I'm wrong, Henry is 23k. Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 34:01

And how do you how do you spell his name?

SPEAKER_04 34:03

N-A-D-E-L-L. N-A-D-E-L. Oh wow. Um yeah, he's in the he's in the 23k. Um but yeah, I was I was psyched to see that one as I was rolling through.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

That's cool. Yeah, this is sweet. That's yeah, I like yeah, I love when we get the elite like elites from other sports come into running, especially trail running, because it's like, you know what, that actually does make a lot of sense. Especially, do you say mountain bike? Yeah, too. So like as fast as he could possibly be descending at the 23k, he has navigated terrain much faster, which is actually like from a mental like hand eye foot coordination thing, huge because there's probably no speed that he could go on foot. That would freak out his mind.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Yeah, I think I think that is a fair statement. Um yeah, the all of the races are super stacked. It's going through the list, it's crazy. Yeah, we mentioned Ninka earlier. It's really cool to see her back uh in action. She's in the 23k. I think that's a hard one to uh bet against. It'll be cool to see her return to race.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

I've got a clustering of names that I wanted to throw out there. Leah Yingling, Alyssa Clark, Jasmine Lothar, Jesse Diggins, they are all running the triple crown. I was just gonna talk about this. That's sick.

SPEAKER_05 35:47

I love this format. Yeah, me too. The only thing that I regret over this weekend is that that that race or that yeah, that series, whatever you want to call it, can't be isolated. Because I think it'd be so fun to track that in isolation over the weekend. Um it's kind of like stage racing, except there's three different event types basically that they have to compete in, which I think is really cool. I I've always said I wish we had a series that began at the beginning of the calendar year, finished in the fall, and you just you take a group of athletes and you take them up the distance ladder from like 20k to multi-day. Oh you lost. And they just and they just compete and they just compete over the course of the year.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

I thought you were just gonna say have like a couple different like triple crown, like you have your broken arrow, triple crown, your gold smith. No, that'd be really cool.

SPEAKER_05 36:37

And speed goat, speed goat, yeah, one of those. That would be really cool. I mean, that would that might even be better. I I like that too. Raid is the official equipment partner of the single track podcast. And if you haven't had a chance to test out their new vest, the LF5L, what are you waiting for? I have had mine for a few weeks now. I've gotten to take it out on a multi-hour outing just last week to test some of the features. One of the takeaways for me is the generous and creative carrying capacity on this piece of equipment. I was able to fit two 600 milliliter flasks up front, two more 500 milliliter flasks in the rear hydration carry slots, and then another 500 milliliter flask in the rear pass-through pocket. You couple this with the security of the pack and Raid's signature lack bounce. It makes carrying that much hydration relatively effortless. Go check it all out, raidresearch.com. That's R-A-I-D-E-Research.com. Also, thanks to Norda, makers of my favorite trail running shoes. I have been putting testing mileage on their latest model, the 055, over the past month. This is a fantastic mountain ultra racing shoe. It's already been proven out by athletes like Rachel Enterkin and Jimmy Elam. I think when it drops later this summer, you will see it on a lot of start lines. Don't miss the updates for when it launches. Head over to NordaRun.com now to subscribe to their mailing list for updates.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah. One thing, I'll throw this out to you guys for the Triple Crown is the the way you win the Triple Crown is by having the smallest cumulative time across the three distances. That puts such a small amount of weight on the the ascent. Is there a better way to like score the triple crown? Like if we're truly because it it you kinda like the first day is kind of just a wash. And then you just kind of I don't know, it seems like you play off each other for the second day and then see who can blast the third day.

SPEAKER_04 38:40

Yeah, we could we could add the weighting of places to actually make it a two-part like it's both your cumulative time and you get additional you know points for a place in each race type of deal. Um that could make a big difference because if you're you know top five or whatever at the VK and um yeah, you know, the the the 46k runner is gonna be at an advantage uh in this in this scenario.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah, I was just thinking about that. But and then like on the other hand, I guess in like the the first day then just kind of serves as the prologue, which a lot of big stage races have, where it's just like we're just gonna set that to figure out the lineup for the next two days.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

But um I do think the rut does the best job of any of like the triple crowns, and I feel like they get great participation and like the I think the rut highlights the triple crown element of their race really well because I almost always feel like I know who did well in the triple crown as much as you know, did well in any individual race. Uh, but I also think it's a cool trail festival concept of like, you know what, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna like hang for the whole weekend, run three different races. Yeah. Uh like whether that's your goal for the season or you're like, I want to kick my own ass and work myself into fitness here. I think it's a it's a cool approach. I've always wanted to do both broken arrow, triple crown, and uh and the rut triple crown.

SPEAKER_05 40:21

Can I give you guys my picks across the three races? Yeah, let's do it. I've got a lot of title defense happening. So in the ascent, I have Joyce Nijiro and Christian Allen. They both won last year. I think they repeat this year.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

I thought Anna Gibson won last year, no?

SPEAKER_05 40:34

Anna Gibson won two years. She went two years ago? I think it was two years ago. Uh fact check me though. Okay. 23K, I've got El Housine and McKenna Morley. I'm real I my stock is very high on McKenna Morley. And then in the 46k, I've got Rachel Drake on the women's side and Eli Hemming going back to back building off last year. Again, I think his yeah, I guess talking with you guys offline, I I looks like there was a bit of an injury for Sinclair last year, and that might explain some of the four minutes that Eli put on him for the win, but I still think Eli running 350 on this course last year was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Anna Gibson won the the ascent last year. The ascent, okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:13

Oh I thought Joyce won.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

No, Anna won it by like two minutes in 25. It was Anna Gibson 2732, Joyce uh Njiru 2906.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Cause that was for was that for world team spots?

SPEAKER_05 41:36

Yes, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Joyce won the 23k last year. I got those two mixed up. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

I've got Rory uh winning the ascent, beating Chris Mollong.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:55

I I'm trying to manifest it. I've got Joyce winning on the women's side for the ascent. Um for the 23k, I have Ninka winning. Um I'm really excited to see her back and racing. Um it's so hard to bet against Elusine, but I'm gonna I'm gonna root for my teammate and go Patrick Kivnengo um for the 23 and the 46k is kind of a toss-up. Like there's so many. I I see why Eli would be a solid choice, but as I look through the names, the ones that like kind of fire me up, Eli certainly Zach Perrin, Dylan Flewelling. I want Dylan to continue his New England uh rise to superpower and and crush it. Um Darren Thomas, I think has huge potential. Forrest Barton has huge potential, Chad Hall, Gavin Pryor, Noah Williams. That's like a top five in there. Who actually wins? I kind of want to go wild card and say Chad Hall. Um because he's got the potential. He just hasn't uh hasn't been able to showcase it recently. Um also great to see Dave Mackey's name on the entry list and racing. Um I'm going Jasmine for the women's 46k winner.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Oh, okay. Finn, who did you say women's 23k?

SPEAKER_05 43:29

Well, McKenna Morley, but just really one really quick thing. I just think, and I feel like the data is there. I think since the beginning of 2025, Eli Hemming is arguably the best 50k trailrunner in the world.

SPEAKER_04 43:44

I think so. I mean it's 2025. It's defensible for sure.

SPEAKER_05 43:48

Like broken arrow, or sorry, going back to 24. Yeah, 2040. OCC Canyons, I'm gonna throw Big Alta in there. Broken Arrow.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

That big Alta was unreal, the first year he won.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Unreal. Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

So I just wanted to throw that out. I I yeah. Okay. Um I'm gonna start 46k just because that's where Jeff left off. I also put Chad Hall.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah. I I wanna see like we we were talking about like what's what's Jeff McGavro's ceiling at West. What's Chad Hall's ceiling at Broken Arrow? And I think it's it's good enough to win. Um Rachel Drake, which I don't know if she's been on the entrance list this whole time, but going through it, I was stoked to see her name on the 46K. Um Rachel's Rachel's terrible at losing. So um it was my 46k. 23k, I had Elusine, and I'm going Lauren Gregory, which is just like teeing up the the Lauren Gregory, uh McKenna Morley just back and forth rivalry that I hope we see for decades to come because they're both incredible runners. Women's Kenny McKenna beat her at Canyons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

Women's 23K, I think, is the most exciting race. Maybe it's men's men's ascent because of Rory.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

But Puma's first trail athlete.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Finally get to see a Puma trail athlete out there on the star line. Uh VK, I went full repeat winner, slasher, Christian Allen, Ana Gibson. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 45:27

Love it. Yep. This episode is brought to you by Kodiak. One of the things I hear all the time from runners who are struggling with their training is that they're underfueling. And honestly, a big part of fixing that is just having food that actually keeps you going between meals and efforts. Kodiak is built around whole grains, which means minimal processing. So you're getting the full grain, brand included. And that is where the fiber comes from. Pair that with real protein, and you've got something that keeps you fuller longer. I use it before long efforts, but honestly, it works just as well for recovery after a big week, and the variety is there. Flapjacks, chewy granola bars, and their newer protein granola are all worth keeping in rotation. Real ingredients, no shortcuts. Find Kodiak at your local grocery store. They are the ones with the bear on the box. Let's go to Western State's hype. So the prompt I gave us is pick two athletes, ideally, one from the men's field, one from the women's field that you think in some way, shape, or form, qualitatively or quantitatively, are being undervalued heading in and explain why they'll outperform expectations.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Well, um, I don't know if this is news to you guys because we haven't talked about it yet. Did you see that uh Elaine Matteris just signed with Hoka? Yeah. I think I was I saw like a couple hours ago. Yeah. I was I had her as being like a huge undervalued person, but I think now with the HOCA sponsorship, that becomes into like potentially properly valued now. That seems but she but she she was your pick on the woman's side? She was one of them. Um the other one is probably the one that you have, Finn, being Sarah Humble. Oh Say more. I was just on the phone with her coach, Jimmy Elam. And he was like, well, she just she got fourth at Canyons, and uh Elaine just signed with Hoka and has been getting all this hype. Sarah Sarah beat her there and has been having a really good training block. So Jimmy, Jimmy had threw that name to the forefront of my mind, so that was why I wrote that down. And Jimmy is turning Jimmy's a I mean, Jimmy's a smart, smart runner. We we know that. Um he's turning out to be a pretty good coach, too. So um that that was the name that then ended up staying on my notes.

SPEAKER_04 47:53

Would you guys consider yourselves card-carrying members of the Jimmy Elam fan club?

SPEAKER_01 47:58

100%. Yeah, I've got my executive membership.

SPEAKER_05 48:01

Dude, I lived with him in his cabin up in Big Cottonwood Canyon during COVID best year. Well, besides getting married and the life after that, this was the best year of my life. You gotta give the the standard disclaimers.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

My COVID relationship with Jimmy Elam was the the actual absolute peak. Uh I'm with you. I I have a huge fanboy of Jimmy, and um cool to hear he's coaching, and I definitely take his word uh with some additional weight. I don't think he um overhypes things.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

He's he's feeling he seems like a pretty straight shooter.

SPEAKER_04 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

So yeah, Sarah Humble and yeah, cool to see Elainey get in that hoca sponsorship. Um, because we always bring this up in episodes too, is like do some of the athletes that get golden tickets and have the big rise and then sign the contract before Western states, some hold off. I st I still don't really believe there's a a right or wrong answer, but um, I I just I like it when various moves happen. I really thought she was gonna go to ACG. Um but uh okay.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

Yeah, let's um let's do women's picks and then men's picks.

SPEAKER_05 49:19

Yeah. Okay, who you got, Jeff?

SPEAKER_04 49:24

You guys might push back on this, but I'm going with Martina Lenarchik, mostly because I think people are intimidated by saying her name. Uh and putting it out there, but like the that CCC performance last year lives rent-free in my head. And like at a certain level, you can be a great runner, but she also stands out as like a really formidable competitor. So uh she's maybe like the kind of peak talent level that I don't think is is maybe being thrown around quite as much. Although I also know that I'm sure plenty of people out there have her as like a podium contender.

SPEAKER_05 50:06

Yeah. It's it's it's funny you mention her name because I have in the last two weeks or so spoken to four different top competitors at Westminster on the women's side, unprompted, not letting them know what the other ones said. Each one of them said that uh of of everyone on that women's start line, they believe Martina is like the most real deal. Like she's she's that she's gonna be the biggest quote unquote problem on race day.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Well, because she had to drop last year due to overheating issues. Like it didn't really have anything to do with like fitness or you know, killer instinct, et cetera. It's like although that's a huge variable to the race, it is one of the like easier things to get dialed in and figured out and probably don't make that same mistake twice. So um, yeah, Jeff, and kind of like what you said too, it's like you win a race like CCC, that's you know, often that's like a career-defining thing. Winning these big races just doesn't happen that often. And if you can be in a position where you've figured out and learned how to win, sometimes it gets contagious.

SPEAKER_05 51:19

Okay. Uh for me on the woman's side, and both of mine are European selections, just because I think just by nature of where we're based and what we focus on, uh it's easy to overlook the Europeans. I've got Ingvilde Kasperson. She has run the 10th fastest time ever here, which she did in her debut two years ago. Faster. I think Katie Scheid won that year and pulled a lot of the field. But yeah, she's run in the 16-hour range, which is incredible. Um I think she's in a great spot. Really strong canyons earlier this year, battling with Courtney and Rachel. I think she took second. And that's where she punched her ticket. But um, yeah, I think Ingvilde's gonna be a threat. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

That's a good that's a good call. Yeah. I think these are all definitely all good people to be uh keeping tabs on. Especially with some of these uh like European athletes. If you just look at the entrance list on ultra sign-up, they're not as high up as they should be because it goes by just ultra signup ranking, which a lot of you know European races don't make ultra signup ranking, or if you know you get like 14th at CCC, all of a sudden you're only a 75% or but not really.

SPEAKER_05 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:35

Uh here, I'll give you my uh my men's pick too. And I think I've used this quote on a previous Long Run archives, but I think it's so powerful it deserves to be used here. My pick is also from Keanti Tomakard. And and I this is this is for the audio same for you, Joe Hokie. Sweet. So for anyone that might have missed a previous episode, we talked about this interview that he did with Mylan Stone, and there's a there's a question in there where Mylan Stone asks him, Do you feel underestimated? And he says, No, not at all. I stopped comparing myself to others a long time ago. I just live my own quiet life. The most important thing is to enjoy training and try to deliver maximum performance. Also, the only communication I know how to do is winning. That's how I enjoy myself. End quote. That's so good. Basically, in summary, Tomak Cardin has fully ascended Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and he is living the most self-actualized life of any runner in the Western States field.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

100% agree. Uh Thomas Cardan is my my uh sleeper pick too. I don't think either of you had him in your original top 10 predictions.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 53:47

Well, here's the reason. He has said that this year he's explicitly not there to win. He is there to like experiment with the course and try to find his way into the top 10. But he says that winning is not the objective this year. That's the one thing that kind of undermines my own. That's a standbagging comment right there. Totally standbaggy, man. There was some contradictions in the interview, I'll grant you that.

SPEAKER_04 54:05

The folks that he's like just give a royal ass whooping to in his career are the top echelon of the sport. Um, I think like there's that combination of understatedness paired with a real legacy of winning. Um, his performance at Chianti, it wasn't rain. It wasn't the worst weather ever. Jim's performance still stands out as far more impressive. He did beat Jim's time and run a completely controlled race from the get-go. I think I even messaged Finn beforehand, was like, dude, maybe I should jump into the 125k. It doesn't seem that like competitive. I don't know much about Thomas Cardon, but I feel like, you know, maybe there's a chance. Then watching that race and being like, oh, oh, I was so raw. Like this guy is um as real as they come. Like, if I was on the starting line, because there's an element of his unknownness around a Western States race, you know, it's hard to draw uh a comparison to other races he's done. He did crush it at um Le Templier, which is a faster running but still hilly race. Um if I was on the starting line this year, I would be like pretty concerned about the unknown that is Tark Thomas Cardal. And uh when I heard the two of you give your like top 10 predictions, I was like, oh damn, man, I'm holding like Thomas in my pocket for a podium. Um because I don't know what it what people can expect around Marie's strategy. And I think he's like smart enough to not push ahead of a Jim or a Hans or a like Fran uh or folks like early leading, but he's also fit enough to be able to run every step of the way with him. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

It's a good name.

SPEAKER_04 56:08

Brett, don't tell us you also chose it.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

No, I I picked a different name just because again, why would I have picked him when I clearly don't know enough about him? If they're if they're truly being undervalued, we can't all have the same picks to I know.

SPEAKER_04 56:24

And Finn, that I just ran with uh Eric Lapuma last weekend and like revisited that quote with him. I was like, dude, Thomas Cardan, like he had this interview and I like shared it with him. I was like, it's the type of thing that like you only would expect someone like Jim or Remy Bonnet or Katie or like like someone who like the winning mentality is the only thing that it's the only language they speak uh to say.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

I wake up in the morning and piss excellence, like that sort of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:55

Um I I also just love the action verbs that translate from French to English, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Yeah, just cracks me.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Yeah, that's a good one. Should I get my name? Yes. Jess Run Small. Well, you witnessed it firsthand. Yeah, yeah. I mean, getting to see it at Gorge and just You led him for a little bit. I was in front of him for a little bit. Like, ipso facto, I can also lose to him at Western States. But yeah, like the Gorge run was very impressive, but I don't even think that was enough to throw us to throw him in the our top 10 power rankings when we did that episode. But lately it seems like he's been training really well with a lot of veterans, Western states veterans, over it out of Flagstaff. He's done some good Arizona runs and uh yeah, I think the biggest question, Mark me, was like, can he figure out the the heat element of this course? And it it seems like he's gotten in some of the, you know, a good an enough amount of training runs where you should have an idea at least as how your body responds to extreme heat and what you need to do. Because if Josh can figure that part out, like he has all the physical tools to to excel at something like Western states. He's he's pretty quick in terms of just being able to run on runnable stuff, but he's effortlessly bounds up very steep things, and he's also a very good technical descender, which there's like not a lot of technical descending at Western States, but enough where if you're bad at it, it burns matches in the absolute worst places on the course.

SPEAKER_05 58:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

He's a good one. And he's he's a pretty quiet guy. So I mean, that's also why he you know he doesn't get thrown out there a lot, is because I think he's just kind of putting his head down and and working. How about the battle for Alaska, Jesh versus Tracy? That'll be good, yeah. Both have run well at Gorge.

SPEAKER_05 59:11

The the the the battle for the last frontier.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

Uh ish still coached by his college coach?

SPEAKER_01 59:21

Oh, I don't know actually. I don't know anything about his coaching. Would that be Josh Eberly?

SPEAKER_04 59:27

Did he do the Western Colorado?

SPEAKER_05 59:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:31

I don't know either. Um yeah, I I think uh Jesh and Tracen's a pretty pretty good uh pairing. Jesh may be a little bit outranks in power rankings in terms of uh big stage performances, but they're both really, really fit. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 59:53

Uh I think we probably have time for two more topics. This is one that I definitely want to get to because it was on the chopping block last episode. And Jeff, I I recall you having a lot to say here. Uh it's not like a totally new topic, but like two months ago we had Christian Meyer on the podcast, and Christian is the new head of programs for Solomon's like elite development team now that's based over in Europe. And in that episode, he said to me, I really hope somebody listening does this, but how do we not yet have a team ranking in our sport? Question mark. And I thought that that could revamp just some of the age-old questions we've had around teams in our sport and whether it's time for team rankings. Jeff, you were somehow going to tie this into like the emergence of ski brands in the sport. So I don't know if you want to kick us off there.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:45

Yeah. I mean, uh, Distance Plus did this write up and the composition of 2025, you know, trail running teams as of March 31st, 2025, it says there are 27 teams likely to be included in these rankings. Um, and they appear here in alphabetical order. And like, I don't think it's that much of a secret to folks who tune into Long Run Archives, but like I work in the ski industry. That's uh that's my bread and butter. Um and as I like scroll down this list, my mind is just like kind of like blinking, like, okay, craft. That's like a Nordic ski brand. They now make shoes, they're in the ski space. Dinafit, or they're in the run space. Dinafit, that's a they invented tech bindings. That is a ski boot brand that now has trail shoes in the ski space. And I'm kind of cruising down, it's like Rosignal. Rosignal is just a core ski brand. Like they've been a ski brand since the turn of the 20th century out of France. Um, I know that they've made like leisure footwear for like Apre, but for them to have enough of a sponsored athlete roster to have, you know, at least five sponsored athletes running in Rosignal's shoes. And then Solomon shouldn't be a surprise. Uh, I don't mean to plug another podcast on your podcast, Finn, but do it how I built this with Jean-Luc and Nicolas, the founders of Hoka. The beginning of that podcast is all talking about their time at Solomon. And it is so cool. And they are just like core skiers who thought, I think we could make running a little bit more interesting and making downhill running like more fun. Check out that podcast, the Hoka episode, the early part on Solomon, like Jean-Luc and Nicolas built the ski boot and alpine ski, you know, segments at Solomon. Obviously, we know them as a shoe brand, but they are core ski as it gets. Scarpa, core ski, and like Monte Baluna, Italy, where we make our ski boot liners at Zipfit, like all of these brands have headquarters there. And like that's where footwear is made, but mostly Alpine, you know, mountain footwear. Um, Scott France, Scott, like Scott's a multidisciplinary brand. Like, folks might know him from biking, folks might know him from um skiing, might know him from running. All the routes are are in skiing there. And what it kind of made me realize, like that paired, seeing this list paired with uh like knowing Hoka is now a whatever $4 billion brand and is worth more than Solomon collectively, and on who just started the same time as Hoka is like a $20 billion brand. No ski brand is anywhere near that size. Uh, I think ski brands are like seeing like there's a lot more money in footwear. And if you are a core ski brand like Rosignol, based in the French Alps, you automatically have authenticity for mount with mountain communities. So like you might not be able to just step right into uh like streetwear, you know, footwear, um, or like move into the yoga direction, like aloe, but you can likely make a trail running shoe, and folks who ski Rosignal skis are gonna be at least curious enough to check it out. And like, I think, you know, we've certainly seen this rise in trail running footwear within the footwear segment, but I think we're seeing more and more brands that are tied to winter sports recognizing like the writings a little bit on the wall with how winter is doing in Europe and how winter will continue trending in, you know, in North America as well as globally. They're like the time to pivot into footwear brands is is now. And like, let's let's make trail shoes because that is a market where the market cap is just infinitely higher than in ski. So when I looked through, I was like, wait, of these 27 brands, like nine of them are core ski brands, uh started spinning my wheels around. Like, I think we're gonna see Technica, which is a legacy, you know, alpine ski boot brand making trail running shoes in the next two years. And like all of the institutional knowledge around footwear design is there. Like they have all of the materials and resources. It's just like recognizing that the market trends in the ski industry are a bit dreary and the market trends in trail running are really promising. Anyway, that's my TED talk.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:29

That's yeah, I mean, it's really it's gonna be interesting to see which of these brands are gonna be able to like. Oh, and mammute too. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:38

Yeah, mammoot's on there. Uh the like then, yeah, if you know, all within the the Amher Sports group, you have Solomon, uh, Arterix, and then like Atomic is the other ski big ski boot brand. I don't expect Atomic to make running shoes just because their slogan is we are skiing, and that proportion. Portfolio already has Solomon and Arcteryx, you know, dipping their toes. But like all of these big outdoor holding companies like VF Corp, um, I think we're gonna see their brands that like are maybe a little bit more outdoorsy, uh, but not in the like core run space, leaning in on the the trail running side. Um yeah, it's cool to see the increase in trail running brands in the last couple years. Um like Kip Run, uh Kale, like the but I think we're gonna continue to see more and more, and I think these real like ski winter sport identity brands uh could be burdened too, right? We could be seeing this coming from the snowboard side, not just the ski side, of being like there's there's a market of what our what our consumer does for the other now, you know, three months of the year. Um, as ski season gets shorter and shorter, like how can we continue connecting with that customer who we already have allegiance and you know um rapport with?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:12

So Okay, I know we're tangenting a little bit, but I gotta throw this question out there. And this is this, I guess, yeah, I find this fascinating. If the ski industry it continues to suffer or even just flat out dies, I would be really curious to see if these resorts start an arms race to try to basically host the biggest possible trail event on their turf.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:34

You know, the the one thing the Dolomites have going for it is it's a UNESCO heritage site and it's one of the prettiest places on earth. But those mountains are mostly like a lot of the skiable terrain is between two and three thousand meters, and it is just raining below 3,000 meters more and more. And this past winter was a pretty good winter in the Dolomites. The Olympics went off without any major issues. But, you know, a handful of years in a row now, I've gone over and skied March, and like I'm skiing in absolute like pissing rain, and you know, people adopt it a little bit as like the new normal. If you're way up in uh the French or Italian or Swiss Alps, like, you know, winters a little bit stronger and you know, staying around at higher elevations, I think the same could be said, like Colorado being on a plateau, maybe it won't impact Colorado as much as it might impact the Pacific Northwest or the Tahoe based resorts. Uh but there's 500 ski lifts like at Dola Midi Superski. And I think they're already like pivoting, you know, to just way more summer tourism of like, let's run the lifts to make it so you don't have to hike all the way up there, but then you can go for a hike. You know, anything you want an Instagram like capturable photo for, like a chairlift, people will pay to get on that chairlift to get up there to get their photo. So I think the the marketing is already changing a bit. Um, but trail running, mountain biking, um I think those are gonna be pretty huge ticket items for these resorts.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:10

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Definitely need to figure out which of these brands are worth investing in, you know. There you go. They need to hire you, Brett. I I've got let reach out, I'll send my rates over. Contract something up.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:28

Let me let me let me throw this question to you, Brett. And this comes back to just like the the the the the value or none at all of team rankings in our sport. If team rankings had existed at Utimbi last year, do you think you would have watched that race differently?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

So I was trying to figure out what like my like what what what would I like to see out of team rankings that would like keep me even more invested in the race as a whole? Um because you know, we've talked about like we are we seeing um, you know, like the yearly or quarterly, you know, power rankings come out for the teams based off the results. And like that's really fun to see because I would love to say like an end of the year, you know, which team performed the best. But I also want to see, you know, mid-race, you know, we we know maybe there's an official start list of X number of teams that are, you know, officially like announced before the race, and it's gonna, you know, comprise of these people. And at the end of, say, we'll use UTMB as an example, you know, we're gonna have one of these teams is going to be the team winner for UTMB. And you know, I thought it'd be really cool if it was, you know, kind of going off of like worlds long course kind of thing, where it's, you know, a cumulative time across X number of athletes. I think it would be really cool if one team, like, you know, it wasn't a men's team and a women's team, but it was just like Hoka, and they had their top two men, top two women, and their cumulative time is, you know, that's how you win the team ranking. And then you have kind of almost like a staggered uh like viewpoint that you're watching throughout the race, because you'd see like Hoka's top two men come through, and then you'd see Hoka's top two women come through different checkpoints, and then there'd be you know two more races within the races to see the standings of how the teams are going and like which who from Hoka is actually really starting to become the most important team member throughout uh throughout UTMB. Um, who's making you know early pushes, late pushes, that would be cool, who drops, and then all of a sudden now like so and so from Hoka, like, oh, you're now a scoring member. You've all of a sudden become really important. Um I I love I just love the the dynamics of that and how a race like UTMB would be long enough where you could really talk about it and like see the storylines forming midway through.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:10

Where my mind goes in that situation is if like the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, let's just call it a ranked athlete on the Hoka team, if they can like perform reliably and like finish in the top 20 after playing some sort of care uh key sub-role early or mid-race, I would love to know how that changes the dynamics of like mid-tier contracts in our sport because they're playing such a obviously key role in that race for a multiple multitude of reasons. Does that make them more valuable than they are in the current landscape?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:46

If you could like receive outside aid from your teammate that's in the race, I think that would be a huge bargaining chip for something like that, where you're like, No, I will for sure be able to carry all of Jim's nutrition through at least Cormayer and run with him. And then I'll blow up and just walk the rest of the race. Right? Like, oh, Jim's like, oh, my water bottle ran out of water. I'll be like, oh, well, here's another one for you. Because we're on the same team.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:33

The uh the the format I still see is like if it were um world trail majors or like I think that is uh a better series to focus on because Hoka has so many uh races that are happening at the same time, but like just the team scorings of like you want you want to have team representation at every every one of those races. And it does regionalize it in a way that like I know there's a push for athletes to race more locally, and like that's why there's you know, whatever, more um UTMB races in North America, so you don't have to go to Europe, like race where you are type of mentality. Uh so you have to have like a strong global team, and like the value comes in of like, well, you know, if if these two races are back-to-back weekends, um, you're not gonna have your best runner racing in both of them. Like you want depth on your team as well as elite talent. But I still can't quite wrap my head, Brett, around like the the cycling style racing and if there would actually be an advantage.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:47

Yeah, I'm not really sure either. Yeah. I would like, I mean, I'd be curious to see what would happen if that like if all of a sudden that became legal. Like would would it even be worth pursuing? Um But I would love to see some like mid-race team time ticker going going across, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:11

The team time ticker.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:13

Yeah, the team time ticker.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:15

Um I think I think I think the media would have to get excited about it. We would have to get excited about it because at least until now I have never met a fan who has ever looked at any of these athletes and focused on the the fact that they belong to like a quote unquote team. Like at least until today, people have been focusing on just individual athletes. But no one ever talks about the Terex team or the Hoka team or the AN team. Sorry, Jeff.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:43

Like they focus on Jeff, not I actually I would say like the Terex team, I think people do remark on like, wow, Terex does a great job with their team camps and like great.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:52

But I don't think that the team dynamics in races.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:55

Yeah, I think like Hoka that team is ridiculously talented. The fact that no Hoka male ended up in the top 10 last year at Western States is still like this wild head scratcher. Um but like yeah, I I I would say maybe Hoka is the team of like do runners know like who's on that team? I think they probably have the the most awareness around that front. Um, but yeah, I'm I'm with you. I I come back to like nationality or like heck, if there was the world trail majors, was like register with your six athletes. The team that wins at the end of this gets a $250,000 team payout. Like, be sick to see the Boulder Boys be like, yeah, screw our sponsors. Like, let's enter this as the six of us, and to see like if there could be any uh breakdown of like team dynamics. I I love that little like tidbit about Dan Kurtz, you know, getting second at Nationals last weekend, uh the Sonopy Scramble, and being like, I'd rather race for Brooks than Team USA and like we're Nike and I'm signed up for the race as it is. That's that's like kind of that bold move that uh I think team racing brings up in a in an interesting way. Um yeah, brings me back to Caleb Olsen and Jim's like black shorts competition or you know, really Jim's stance on like, is is Nike paying for me to have this career or is it Hoka? Um, because I think you're you're gonna see brand allegiance uh you know from athletes who feel well supported by their sponsors.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:40

We can't talk about black shorts.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:42

No, no, we can't. We can't, we can't. But we should dive into some something else.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:47

That yeah, that does bring out a a note that I forgot. Um yeah, about like the team uh competition. I'm actually um I should have written it down because I'm starting to lose it again. I'll come back to it. You can gain it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:02

We'll we'll well if if it comes back, bring it back. But I think we have time for one more. Do either of you have a mystery topic that you're excited about that you think we can cover in 10 minutes?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

I didn't I didn't have any good mystery ones for this week. I feel like I'm just like starting to get into like all hands on deck for Western states. Dude, I'm so right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:27

I think the media request is the one that's worth uh exploring. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:31

I'll I'll bring this one up. And I uh you guys good for another 10 minutes? Is 10 minutes okay? Yeah. Yeah, I can do 10. Okay. Um I could do 90. So I think uh there's been a bunch of chatter on this, and I would say it's really been over the last one to two years, especially as the sport's professionalized and they've become more pro athletes, more agents in sport, et cetera. But with Western and Broken Arrow basically upon us and just seeing more commentary on it in our social feeds over the past few days, I thought this could be a good topic. Uh, the the two questions that I posed here: the first one are pro trail runners being overwhelmed at the moment by media requests? And will things change structurally in the next few years as the sport professionalizes even more? If I had to, and I'd love to get your takes here. If I summarized my take, I would say, yes, they are being overwhelmed. In the mid to long run, we are gonna move to a press conference model and true, like true use of the word exclusives when interviews happen. I think much of the access is going to be based off relationship with agents and athlete trust. Um, not that much different from other pro sports. I always reference the last dance documentary, but it's like when Michael Jordan had something he wanted to say on the record, he would call Ahmad Rashad. Ahmad Rashad was like his journalist or media person. And I think trail running will get to a point. I'm not saying it's gonna happen this year or next year, but I think it's gonna happen in the long run, where it's like you either get the press conference where it's one athlete speaking to many and they're interpreting it how they wish, or you've got those like special Michael Jordan, Ahmad Rashad type relationships that allow those exclusives to happen. But I don't know, Jeff, what what do you think?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:19

I mean, I think the the length of the interviews is kind of the the thing for me where I I think that can be overwhelming. But like you gotta ask ourselves, like, what are we doing here? Like what what is the goal? And like you look at the NBA, these are some of the top paid athletes in the world for sure. I look at the NBA because it's the sport I follow closely, but they're mic'd up on court. They're like end of Q quarter one, they're being interviewed. Halftime, like for the for the 90 seconds before they need to run back into the locker room, they're interviewing the best player on the court or the player that just had the most impact on that first half. And it's because the NBA is an organization that's trying to grow the sport, like that's their huge, you know, uh financial engine that is driving this whole thing. And like I I would point to like Rachel Enterkin as someone who says maybe yes to um interview. Like, I actually think Rachel would probably find it pretty fun to be mic'd up like during a race. Uh, and I think people would find it interesting and engaging. So I guess you have to ask yourself, like, what is what is your goal? Um, I think we can often end up in this place as athletes of like I'm saying no to everything. Um I I don't want to have any interaction with Western States Week. Some interaction is kind of like the fun though. Like I think there's I think there's like always an appeal of like, well, I kind of want to go to Olympic Valley and like walk around a little bit and like maybe run into a couple people. Uh, like the the being locked up in your Airbnb the whole week leading up to the race, like that is one thing that I can say, you know, not running Western States is way more fun than Western States because you can say yes to stuff and like actually bop around. Um, I go to like Killian and Jim last year doing that pre-race interview. I know Jim didn't end up racing, but with um Brian, with Brian, uh like I I think you don't get to being the figurehead of our sport by turning down every single media interview. And like Killian's in his place for for a reason. I think uh Rachel being on Rich Roll today, like is saying yes, sure, to select interviews, but you also say yes to like the interviews that are gonna reach different audiences. So I I think that there's maybe an overreaction or over-protection around athletes in Western States week, where like if the athlete's like, no, I actually don't really want to do any of that, great. Like I think uh I think there's a benefit long-term uh position in the sport of doing a pre-race interview. And at least in 2023, doing a pre-race interview with you guys, like I said my intentions out there and it made them realer for me. And I actually got people reaching out, you know, between that interview and the race, being like, Jeff, like I am fully pulling for you. I I think other people behind your back as fans is like a powerful tool for a race like Western States. Um, so I think it's an overreaction. Um I do think that you know, certain runners are probably getting hit with more media requests requests than others. And I think you kind of ask like what are the what are the titles you're open to talking to race week, and what are the titles you're open to talking to like in a a real lull where like off season it doesn't seem like a big lift. Um so yeah, I think the panels, trail con, I'm sure like that's all adding to uh the busyness. But I think I I want to hear from you know top contenders going into uh going into the race. And I think the UTMB format or even like the Western States format, it's almost there, but they're calling the 15 or 20 favorites up just for like a brief bio and a wave. And you know, I think other races where it's not the 15 or 20 athletes and you get a chance to pass the mic around, like I think there's value in that. I I'm I agree with you in that uh I definitely see um the like you know media briefings, like all of the media in one place getting to ask their question as a as a feature.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:04

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening too. I kind of hate that though, because I always like I you get that from a lot of the track meets where the track the athlete they leave the stadium and the only way for them to leave the stadium is through the like the press box or press me. The mix zone. The mix zone. That's yeah, that's what it's and you know, at best, you know, and the format's different than it would ever be here, but like, you know, you might get to pull one decent clip because of a question someone asked or you asked, but you don't get a lot of the fun, like random tidbits that come out of something that happens in the 37th minute of an interview sitting on the couch at the single track HQ. Um like there's there's something special to the slightly longer form interview, but I also agree, like as an you know, an athlete running watch, like you can't do 10 of those or 12 of those leading up to the race. And and it's a bummer if any athletes feel bad about saying no to someone and saying yes to others. Like that's you know, for if you're newer to the sport, you know, you probably do have a little bit of this feeling that you might need to, like, I need to please everyone, like I got to please my sponsors, I gotta please my agent, my coach, every media outlet. But you know, when it boils down to it, like you get to make all these choices and you you have to believe that they're not personal. If like you say no to a media outlet, like if they get pissed at you for saying no, then they're a bad media outlet and they shouldn't, they don't deserve to be there taking interviews. But like if we if you ask an athlete and they're like, Oh no, I just don't, I don't have the capacity to be for it. That's like, okay, I'll you we can talk after the race. That's fine. Like, I think there does need to be a little bit more just like I don't know if it's professionalism or like manners or something about like it's like you know, like when I was working in footwear, like you gotta remember, like if someone if I pull a shoe for someone and they don't they put it on and they don't like it, like I'm not gonna take that personally because like I didn't make that shoe. Like, it's okay. Like, oh well, bring out something else. Like, it's like, yeah, some of these media athletes like it sounded like some of them, you know, from this Instagram post, like some are getting like pissy about people saying no, like that's not cool. Um, don't do that, like move on, move on to someone else. Um it's yeah, and so like I do feel for for a lot of these athletes as like there are more media outlets now than there were, and there's just probably a lot of crap to you know sort through. And you know, it would be nice to have either an agent or a coach or just friends, group chat, you know, ask ask Finn. Finn will let you know if the media outlet is good or not.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:10

Okay, I know we got a boogie, so I'm gonna just there's a lot more to cover here, so maybe we'll just put this into a future episode. One stat to leave the audience with I believe that this is new this year, and this relates to the press conference format. If you go to the Broken Arrow Elite Runner page, which shows all the requirements for kind of being affiliated, in order to collect prize money at Broken Arrow this year, the event requires elite athletes to participate in their post-event press conference. So that's an interesting marketing move, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:40

That's like a good market move. If the move is to build Broken Arrow, like then they have kind of ownership over that you know post-race interview and can distribute that content.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:52

Dude, I can't. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna sneak into that press conference. That will not be the first press conference conference I've snuck into.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:01

Guys, this was amazing. Brett, Jeff, thank you guys so much. Another classic edition, the 40th edition of the Long Run Archives, and I cannot wait to mix it up with you guys next week in Olympic Valley. Best time of the year.