ESPN's Wright Thompson on the Cost of Athletic Greatness (Sunday Conversation)

Wright Thompson is a senior writer for ESPN.com and ESPN The Magazine who has profiled some of the greatest athletes and coaches of all time, including Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Steve Kerr, Pat Riley, Caitlin Clark, and Dan Gable. He's also the author of 3 books: "The Cost of These Dreams", "The Barn", and "Pappyland". 

In this conversation, we discuss optimization versus beauty in sports, sports as vehicles for self-understanding, why fame freezes people at the emotional age they got it, and where the tortured artist myth comes from before ending on mortality and legacy.

Note - in case you're not interested, we spend the first 20 ish minutes of the conversation talking about our shared appreciation for music and certain artists and bands before getting into the aforementioned part of the conversation.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back, or welcome to the Single Track Podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson, and in this episode, I am joined by Wright Thompson, senior writer for ESPN. Wright has made a Hall of Fame sports journalism career out of profiling prominent athletes and coaches like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Caitlin Clark, Steve Kerr, Joe Montana, Dan Gable, the list goes on. He's also the author of three excellent books: The Cost of These Dreams, The Barn, and Populand. Frankly, I have wanted to interview Wright since the inception of this show five years ago. So this was personally a real treat. Two cautions to the listener. First, there is a fair bit of profanity used in this episode. I wouldn't say at the expense or distraction of the content, but I just want to give you a heads up if you've got kids in the car listening or wherever you are. And number two, we spend the first 20-ish minutes of the show focusing completely on our shared love of music and bands and artists like Drive By Truckers, Widespread Panic, Grateful Dead, so on. So if that is not your jam, no pun intended, skip ahead until about the 25-minute mark to get started. From there, we discuss a number of uh topics: optimization versus beauty in sports culture, why fame freezes elite athletes at the emotional age they were when they got it. That's heavy. His counter read of David Foster Wallace's famous Tracy Austin essay, the two-person theory and why certain greats like Michael Jordan apparently had no negative self-talk, the resentment corollary and why you only hate the craft between the big moments, and we ended on mortality and legacy. While we never really touched on trail and ultra running directly in this conversation, my hope is that the broader topics of pro-athlete psychology and the massive trade-offs these greats have to make to excel at their crafts will resonate and carry over somehow, somehow, into what we are all doing here. Norda is the official footwear partner of the Singletrack podcast. And looking at their website, from what I can tell, the recent release of their newest model, the 055, has been a massive hit. Many sizes are already sold out. And I think we're only like a week into the release. It's amazing. I'm not sure when these things are getting restocked. So go check to see if your size is still available. If not, on their website, nordorun.com. You can find a link there to join their mailing list so that you don't miss updates on when your size is back. She was great. Also, thanks to Johngy, the official apparel partner of the show. I wore their run all day tee and their seven-inch two-in-one multi shorts on my recent four-day fast pack of the White Mountains section of the New Hampshire Appalachian Trail. It was hot and humid all four days, and this was a perfect combo. The shirt is ultra fast drying. It's got moisture wicking fabric that keeps you dry and comfortable in these types of conditions. It's also designed to resist cling even when soaked with sweat, which I was from like mile one onward. With the shorts, similar value proposition. They deliver really great airflow to stay relatively cool. And they've got this awesome moisture-wicking compression liner that ensures chafe-free coverage. I can attest to this. I spent at least 10 hours a day in these shorts. Over 40 hours total over the four days, they worked. Go check them out. Go check out both items, I should say, at jongy.com forward slash singletrack. Using that special link helps the show a ton with that. Let's get on to this conversation with Wright Thompson. How was Jason Isbell in London last month?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Dude, it was incredible. I mean, I mean, the the we were at the Royal Albert Hall with both girls. And so the my uh my five and eight-year-olds are concert veterans, and so they uh they really had a great time. Uh so that that was really fun seeing them. And then the other thing was you could tell how aware Jason was of how far it is from Green Hill, Alabama to the Royal Albert Hall. And like that, that was absolutely palpable. And uh, you know, we were lucky enough to be sitting in a suite, and there was a uh in this box next to us, so like right next to me, was a guy, and it was interesting because he, you know, it was clearly he looked super fancy English to me. You know, I can't, I don't know enough to tell the accents, but he uh he just belted out the words uh don't let them take who you are, boy, and don't try to be who you ain't. Don't let me catch you in Kendale with a bucket of wealthy man's paint. The guy screaming, I'm just like, this shit cuts across oceans and class. And anyway, it was uh it was a really, really special night.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

What does his music articulate about the human condition that resonates with you?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Uh well it it very much articulates sort of That's a great question. Uh I think it does a couple of things. I mean, I think one he he talks about the South in a way that rings true to me. Uh in that way that like the greatest art is just your own thoughts, but in a language you didn't have, you know. Uh and then like I think he he nails like to me the Jason Isabel song that unlocks all the other Jason Isabel songs, and it's not like one of the famous ones, is the title track off Something More Than Free. And it's like, I don't think on why I'm here where it hurts. I'm lucky to have the work. Uh and you know, if I ever feel on either, A, too big for my britches, you know, like uh where I'm complaining about stuff that doesn't really matter, or if I'm just like, you know, just feel like the whole thing is sh sitting on my shoulders and I'm like, I'm totally not, I'm gonna collapse under the weight of it. Like, I I love that song.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Do you want to have you ever profiled a musician?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

No, but I was talking about this the other day. My first ever magazine assignment, or one of my first, so my first ever magazine assignment was I wrote a cover story on Widespread Panic for Relics. Uh, and then uh I wrote a Willie Nelson story in college for a music magazine. And like the great regret of my life is that I listened to those fuckers at the Missouri School of Journalism and did not smoke weed with Willie Nelson when he offered on his bus, listening to fucking Billy Joe Shaver parked outside the silver bullet, a honky tonk on the outskirts of Columbia, Missouri, and that was a tragic fail. Because like what I should have done was smoked weed with Willie Nelson and then just written about that. So that was dumb.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Do you suspect that if you did do a profile on someone like Jason Isbell or Bob Weir or Neil Young, that a lot of the themes that you've picked up studying like Steve Kerr and Michael Jordan, they they would appear in their uh craft as well?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Probably. I mean, I think like I don't think it really matters that much. I mean, I think uh uh like I think the best magazine profile writer going right now is uh Grayson Haver Curran, who writes music for GQ. Like I think his shit is incredible. He wrote, he did a fish story, he wrote a Billy String story. I mean, he's got a bunch of them. And uh like he actually like reinvigorated my sort of love of the profile. Like I read a Billy Strings profile he did and was just like, fuck me, that's great. Like, uh, holy shit, who's this guy? What does he do? And then I started Huh?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

What does he do? Like, how did how did he reinvigorate?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

It it just he's great at it and like earnestly curious in a way that you write enough profiles and you start trying to nibble around the edges. Uh uh I don't know. It's it's a really good question. Sorry, I I saw I got distracted. My telephone for some reason rings on my computer and I had to look up and decline a call and lost my train of thought. But the the uh I fucking hate technology. Uh we should just be sending smoke signals. The uh but you know, you know, uh it's a really good question. Uh I mean I wrote uh I wrote liner notes for a uh Grateful Dead record that will never for a Mickey Hart record that won't ever appear. Uh and so that was I I didn't know how to write liner notes, so I just wrote what I thought was like a good magazine profile about Mickey while he was making the record because it was a soundtrack to a movie that I was in charge of that he and I made together. And so like I was there for the whole process. So I wrote sort of a profile of him told through the making of one thing. And it was sort of like, what does a drummer do when he knows he's running out of time? And so, yeah, I mean, it was it it absolutely could have just been dropped into the cost of these dreams. Uh, you know, I wanted to be a music writer. I was randomly assigned to sports at the college newspaper.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Really? And you and you never tried to get back to that?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

No. Like I I I learned uh uh Just inertia? It's inertia? No, I mean it's it's a couple of things. So I I was uh the food and liquor columnist for Grantland. And the old I don't know, Grantland was a website that ESPN ran. Uh well, I mean not everybody knows, but it that Bill Simmons ran. And I was the food and liquor correspondent. And I think the first four or five of them I did, say first four, I thought were really, really good. And then I ran into an unbelievable wall in that uh I realized that I like lots of different kinds of places, but I like them all for the same reason. And so that if I was going to continue to do this, I was gonna have to be like much more, I wasn't just gonna be able to like drop in and just do them because like my the the lane. Have you ever heard that like that your patterns of thought are like ski runs, and that one of the reasons people like psychedelics so much is that it's like fresh powder that covers up all the runs. And like, you know, and like but like they've described it as that, so that your brain gets to find a new way down. And so I was just like, I can't, I can't keep doing this like this. And then the major problem was I had turned my the thing I love into work. And so like I just don't want to do that with music. I like going to see live music is my happy place. Uh and so I just didn't, you know, I love taking my kids. I was supposed to be three nights of widespread panic in Oakland last night, tonight, and tomorrow night, and then had a work thing pop up and couldn't do it. But like it's the happiest I am, because the the most disconnected from my own terrible interior monologue is uh is I love going to live music. I mean, I'm I'm in a state of mourning that is embarrassing to fully articulate about the end of Dead and Company, which I saw a lot. Like a fucking an embarrassing amount. Uh and so like I I love that. And I like taking my, you know, my my eight-year-old seen Dead and Company four times, Jason Isabel twice, Taylor Swift, uh Bruce Springsteen, and then the five-year-old seen Isbel three times, and she really wanted to go see AC DC. I got caught in this thing where I took Wallace out with me on a shoot when we were shooting Dead and Company for that Mickey documentary, and I got home and her sister is like, I want to go see a concert, but she was too young to make it through one. So we went to uh we flew down to St. Augustine, and Jason Isbel was nice enough to let us go to his soundcheck so Louise could go to the soundcheck, and it was unbelievable. Like the guys in the band were talking to her from the stage and she was dancing and fans for life now. And then we went and had uh dinner at this hotel where they set us up like outside by the ocean, and then we only had ice cream. Uh and so, and then I took Wallace with me for three nights in a row at the sphere, and then I got home and Louise wanted to go to a concert, and uh she'd been riding with my wife uh to school listening to 80s on eight, and Louise had gotten really into AC DC thunderstruck. So she said she wanted to go see AC DC. So me and a four-year-old went to the football stadium in uh Nashville and went to AC DC. She made it through seven songs. She saw Thunderstruck and Hell's Bell. She was pumped. Uh so anyway, like I I like going to hear music and I just wouldn't want to turn it into work. And besides, like David Brown is writing about music. There's no space. Do you know what I mean? Like it's being done well.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

So d there is no additional act for Dead and Company, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 13:54

I am more inside this than some people, but way less inside this than most. So like I have a little info that's just enough to make me dangerous, and I sort of I I don't know who would be I don't know who it would be.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

All the names before I guess I've always wondered, like, how many new component parts can you add to something where it's still great and don't even worry about the referential stuff.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Well, I guess what I'm saying is like it's always been designed, it it was always going to be a a a uh, you know, a ship of theseus. Like, like I'm not worried about that so much as uh like I mean it can't be Sturgil Simpson, because then it'll sound like Sturgel Simpson. And it can't be Billy Strings, because then it'll sound like Billy Strings. And it can't like so who that's going to be is a very, very difficult question. You know, like I I don't know the answer, because like I mean, I'm assuming that Mickey would still keep going. Uh and like that helps a ton if there's somebody up there. Uh but again, I don't know who that would be. I mean, I I you know uh I don't know. Like it I've yet to hear something where I'm like, oh, that's what it's gonna be. And so uh uh it might be imp it might be impossible to do without Bobby. You know, because in some ways, Bob like not in some way. I mean Bobby was the soul of that band. You know, Bobby's picking the set list, Bobby is the you know, uh Bobby was the muse that got John. I I really don't I'm talking out of my ass. I really don't know, but I I would like there to be something. Uh you know, it's embarrassing to go to a bunch of J. Rad shows.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Before we get to sports, I promise we'll get there. Last man do you do you suspect that we will at some point in the next few years see uh a biography about Bobby Weir?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

I mean, I hope so. I mean there are a lot of people who really knew him really well. I mean I met him a couple of times. Uh uh's odd in the best way. Um I mean he's still got you know, his kids are young, you know. His daughters are young, they're always around, you know? And a really nice, funny, and talented uh, you know. Um I accidentally made eye contact once with Natasha Weir during US Blues, during the exact line is of steal your wife. Which was funny. I mean, to both of us. Uh the uh but no, I mean I don't know what's gonna happen. And like that band starting somewhere in the 2023, I'm much more interested in this than fucking sports, by the way. That band, that band, uh somewhere in that 2023 tour turned a corner, and you could hear it happening somewhere leading up to the Folsom Field shows or during the Folsom the Folsom Field shows. But by the time they got to San Francisco at the end of that tour, they were great. And uh and then that didn't dip during the sphere. I mean, the best they ever were were during those 51 sphere shows. I think I went to 18 of them. Uh and we would just go out. I s I did my book on tape out there, and then I would do it in a recording studio in Las Vegas from like 10 a.m. to two, and then would go back to the Venetian, and then we'd meet at like Smith and Wolinsky at 3.30 for lunch, suite opened at 5.30, and go up there and start it again. And so like those were those were great weeks.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

I'm I am utterly fascinated by it seems like a the tension in these bands where it's like on the one side you have people, if you go back to The Grateful Dead, like Phil Lesh, Vince Wellnick, who can't get enough, they would, they would just tour into the ground if uh if the job let them, versus people like Jerry Garcia, who desperately needed a lifeline. He didn't want the spotlight, he needed to like cast away. And I don't know if that was the same thing in Dead and Company, where it's like maybe O'Teal and Jeff, like they can't get enough. They're younger, John can't get enough, and like some people, uh Bill, Mickey, like they need they need time.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

No, man. Mickey's a Mickey's an animal. Mickey's Mickey, Mickey's ready to go. Mickey can go three hours right now. Uh Mickey's unbelievable. I mean, I I mean, I say that like I did a project with Mickey Hart and he worked us under the ground. Like, Mickey's no joke. I mean, what time is it right now? It is 6.18 in Cal. So at 9:30, 10 a.m., he will take his coffee and pad down from his house to his studio, because when we were down there, we would be padding up from the guest house. And he is in that studio six days a week, doing full workdays, making music that maybe no one will ever hear. But that dude has a work ethic. That guy, that guy is in that studio, butt in a chair, 9:30, 10 a.m., and they work straight through till five o'clock. And he's got, you know, a fully operational studio next to his house that's staffed. I mean, I can't even imagine what this shit costs. And uh, you know, at one time I was sort of like, God damn, Mickey, like what? And he basically was like, I don't have a boat, I don't have an airplane. Like, this is what I want. This is what I do. I get up and I go to work. And uh, you know, he's got Jerome the engineer and Tom the engineer. He's got drum techs, and you know, like it's they're ready to go, and it's cool as shit. And he's making all this unbelievable music. He will be doing it today. Uh it's, you know, and we're we're we are recording at 6.19 California time. So in about three hours and 10 minutes, you can start looking for him heading up to the studio. And so if these guys have serious work ethics, you know, uh, one of the real tragedies is that uh Bob Weir died in like two or three days later, he was building a new house that I don't think he ever got to live in. But two or three days after he died, they finished his home studio in the home that he would never live in. And uh, you know, no, so like I think the opposite is true. I mean, I think these guys are animals. I mean, I, you know, Mickey is playing. The question is whether he's playing for himself or in front of a crowd, but he is playing somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Where do you think the myth comes from, especially among the artist class? Like you look at people like Justin Towns Earl, like, where does the myth come from that you need to torture yourself, you need to take a ton of drugs, drink a ton of alcohol to produce great art?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

I think some of it is post hoc, ergo propter hoc, which is I have this problem, so let me romanticize it. Uh, I think certainly, you know, all art is rooted in the things that are part of the universal human experience that require you plumbing your own life to try to find those things. You know, and I think that's true whether you're a musician, whether you're a basketball coach of a team, you know, like if you're gonna be Phil Jackson or Steve Kerr, you have to know yourself well enough to be able to understand what other people want and need. And so I think something about the creative process requires deep vulnerability, and some people are just not suited for it. You know, I went, uh, I met Justin Townsheld once, and I I went with him to one of the show. Chicago, I don't remember which one, but one of the Chicago Cubs World Series games when they was in when they won and 10 years ago. Because it was, I had four tickets, and I took my boss Chad, and then I got his friends George from Oak Street Bootmakers in Chicago, who's the coolest guy in the world. And uh, if you want, like he makes like his trench boots are like I give them as gifts to people. And so I was like, George, man, you want to go to the game? He's like, Yeah, I'm like, all right, bring a friend. And he walks into Shuba's, that bar sort of roughly walking distance from Wrigley, so we could meet there and then walk. And he's got Justin Towns Earl with him. And uh I mean, you don't ever want to make too much of one encounter, but uh I mean it it was a little bleak. Uh but uh so I you know that's a very good question. And I think drugs and alcohol, I mean, I don't think they they help you live with yourself. And so in some ways it's probably medicine. Uh and then you lose control of it. You know, you're talking about Jerry Garcia. I mean, I think those guys in that band definitely know that they thought he could handle it, but they definitely knew there was a problem, but they all had so many responsibilities, and there were so many people they were responsible for, and there were so many people on the payroll, and you either keep touring or you fire all those people. And if you're at the Grateful Dead, I mean, the whole time I was working with Mickey, his assistant was this woman Rose, who was incredible, but who that I think he hired, like he was introduced to by Jerry Garcia in like 1967. Like, it's all the same people. And so they were living in a commune in Marin County, and a lot of those people are still around. So you think about 1995, you're not just firing employees. You got to fire people who'd been there for 30 years. And so you just can understand like they just couldn't come off the road. Like they just had to keep going because the machine needed the money like oxygen. They didn't. They were all rich as shit, flying around on Gulf Streams, you know, but it was it it wasn't them. It was the like, you know, they couldn't quit. And so I think they all in their heart of hearts probably felt like shit. Like we we should have shut it down.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

If you could have dinner with one deceased musician, who would it be in you get one question t to start the start start the dinner? What are you asking them?

SPEAKER_01 24:47

I would that's a great question. Because I mean I was gonna just keep in this and say Brent, and then just ask him to describe the evolution of his understanding of the band and his place in it over ten years. But like, that's super nerdy. I mean, it would should probably be like Mozart, you know what I mean? But like, uh uh. I don't know. That's a really good question. I mean, like Jeff Buckley and be like, what the fuck were you thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I'm like, I was taught at a very early age, very early age, do not, do not mess with the Mississippi River. We we could do this all day. You know, maybe Warren Zevon, who I love. Uh you know, Stevie Ray Vaughan. Actually, actually, if I could bring one dead musician back and talk to them, I would bring back Muddy Waters and I would want to talk to him about 1943 and sort of leaving Stovall Plantation and getting to Chicago. You know, the place where he first worked in Chicago is now a Chinese like hot pot restaurant. Like, I I've sort of gone up there and done the whole Muddy Waters thing and like followed where he went. Uh, I I would I would want to talk to him about leaving Mississippi.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

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SPEAKER_01 28:10

100%.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Even Tiger.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Loves the craft. And you assume for Tiger that the craft is golf. And it isn't. It's probably it's probably mastery of yourself. You know? I mean, what they're after is a religious state. You know, uh, I think they all like it. I mean, like everybody who loves something resents it some of the time. You know. Uh I've got the single greatest job, I think, in sports journalism. Certainly one of them. I mean, it's me and Seth Wickersham and like they're they're five, you know, Meered Fader, uh, Don Vednata, Tom Juneau, Tim Kuhn. I mean, I'm trying, they're not like they're not a lot of people who actually have the job anymore. There used to be 60 of us, and now there's six. Uh it's the best job to me in sports. And there are times when I fucking hate it, you know, like everybody. Uh it's always nice to be reminded that it's awesome. Uh and it's usually a story that does it. It's usually you only hate it in the in-between times. You only hate it between stories because you're secretly afraid that you'll never be able to do it again. I sat down and started writing this. The most recent story was about the basketball coach Steve Kerr. And like I had a real moment a couple of days into that where it's like, well, shit, I don't know how to do this anymore. Had a really great run. It was awesome. I have to call Chris Buckle up now and quit. Uh, I don't know how to do it anymore. And so I think so a lot of the sort of hating the craft is in the moments when the craft seems to be winning. Uh but I think like deep down, there's an understanding that the whole point of life probably is to be self-actualized and self-ware, self-aware on your deathbed. I don't want to name names, but I saw someone recently giving a speech who has a terminal illness, and I just walked away thinking like they're still selling mythology. So, like three, four months to go, they still aren't clearly seeing themselves in a mirror and like what a waste. You know, I think my uncle Will, who I was very close to, who I adored, my father's brother, uh, I went to see him on the last day of his life. And I mean, I walked away thinking, like, that's how I want to die. Like, it was the most beautiful thing you've ever seen in your life. His his daughters were sort of sitting on the bed with him and like rubbing his head and his shoulders and singing him hymns. I mean, mine would probably be they'd be singing Broke Down Palace and Althea, but you know, the idea holds. And he was fully content, wasn't scared, wasn't bargaining, had no regrets. And it was like, oh, that's how you want to be at the end. And so one of the reasons I suspect that people love these crafts is that crafts are just vehicles for self-understanding along the way. And like, that's how you learn about yourself. And that's how you answer all those questions that need to be answered by the time you're dead. And that, like, you know, a craft is just a really, really fancy car that can get you from here to there. And so I suspect that the people who really love their craft love it at a place beyond language because they haven't articulated any of that. Because why would you? I mean, I read the Tracy Austin, David Foster Wiles piece you sent me his homework on the airplane yesterday. What'd you think? I mean, I have lots of thoughts. I love that piece. Here are I underlined two bits. Hold on. Here they are. What do we got? Oh, Jordan hanging in mid-air like a Chigal bride. I like that a lot. Holy shit. Uh uh, and then let me find here. I sent one in my group chat last night. Let me see. Hold on. It's always nice when you're on a group chat with five people and you're like, some days I'm the fifth best writer on it. Which is humbling and annoying. All right, let's see here. So we want to know them, these gifted, driven physical achievers. We too, as an audience, are driven. Watching the performance is not enough. We want to get intimate with all that profundity. Is that how you say that? Profundity? We want inside them, we want the story, capital S. We want to hear about humble roots, privation, precocity, grim resolve, discouragement, persistence, team spirit, sacrifice, killer instinct, instinct, linament, and pain. The liniment is what makes that. We want to know how they did it. How many hours a night did the child bird spend in his driveway hitting jumpers under homestrung floodlights? What ungodly time did Bjorn get up for practice every morning? What exact makes of cars did the Butkus boys work out by pushing up and down Chicago streets? What did Palmer and Brett and Peyton and Everett have to give up? And of course, we want to know how it feels inside to be both beautiful and best. What combination of blankness and concentration is required to sink a putt or a free throw for thousands of dollars in front of millions of unblinking eyes? What goes through their minds? Are these athletes real people? Are they even remotely like us? Is their agony of defeat anything like our little agonies of daily frustration? And of course, what about the thrill of victory? What might it feel like to hold up that number one finger and actually be able to mean it? Look, that's great. And I mean, you know, my entire job flows from human beings' urge for that. So it was, and it was very that was very interesting. It was like reading the source code. Because it was like, you know, because he he's writing about somebody who it's pretty funny. We all know who wrote that book, who he just annihilates. Like it was like, holy shit. But even the best of of that thing is under his microscope. I mean, he he's talking about everybody who does it, not just people who do it poorly, right? And so, like the I mean, it's interesting. Like, there is a level of sort of meta-self-awareness of my whole thing that he has that I many times do not. So, like, that's what you go to writing for. It's like, I've certainly had all those thoughts. I mean, I had a like, I'm not entirely convinced I wasn't psychosomatically inducing back pain after finishing the Steve Kerr profile. Like, my back really hurt to the point that I went to the doctor and I had an x-ray in an appointment and in Oxford, and they were like, there's nothing wrong with you. And so I was like, oh shit. Uh he gave me a steroid shot, just I think to as a, you know, placebo or whatever, but you know, I'm not entirely convinced I wasn't psychosomatically inducing the symptoms I've been writing about someone else psychosomatically inducing. So uh it's a very weird job that he saw incredibly clearly. I loved that essay. I'm not sure what you wanted to talk about, but that's what I took away.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Aaron Powell Well, I think when I read when I read many of your profiles, one of the takeaways is that in some way, shape, or form, these great athletes and coaches are complicated and they are devastated, if not severely burdened by a complex inner monologue. And so to then read this DFW piece and his profile of Tracy Austin, like here's an example of a great athlete who um is is thriving on just sort of like unquestioned simplicity.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Aaron Ross Powell Except that, like we're assuming that the jocography got her full attention. When I'm imagining what it got was a fraction of it. So, like, I mean, the thing that I don't think holds is that the banality is the secret. Like, I think some people like they might have offered her in advance and she might have sat for two interviews and said that's all I'm doing. So, like, some of it is like you know, his essay couldn't stand in intersection with any sort of plumbing into the actual mechanics of how that book went down, which I don't know. But I would imagine, you know, you get two interviews. I was supposed to do an as told to book one time, and then I just couldn't do it after talking to the person because they just were gonna be unable. There was a huge wall between their own feelings, insecurities, vanities, and fears, and what they ever said aloud to anyone. And I was like, this isn't going to work. And so, you know, the you could see how like if everybody's already cashed the checks, you just gotta do it anyway. Uh which all of which is to say, like, I think a lot of there is a that book, the inner game of tennis that Steve Kerr likes so much, I think there's a lot of that. Like, you know, I one of the I was asking Steve about Michael Jordan once, and uh in this context, because he we were sitting at dinner one night talking about the inner game of tennis and like the idea that every person has two people in them. There's the person who does things, and there's the person who just offers nonstop commentary, mostly negative, about those things that you're doing. And so for him, the struggle was to figure out how to silence person number two. And he was just saying Michael Jordan didn't have a person number two. And so, like, that goes to something that that David Foster Wallace is is getting at uh in this, which is like Steve said he never ever heard a single snippet of negative self-talk from Michael Jordan ever. And I'm like, holy shit, that's incredible. You know, we all go, ah, I suck, fuck, you know, like uh, I'm so bad at this. Please help me, god damn it, you know, and so you do suspect that there are the rare organisms that don't do that. And those people are devastating.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Let me let me ask you this. How again, just in your experience, how often are these people aware of the central complication in their lives and then how they're trying to go about solving for it?

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Very rarely. I mean, I've had a couple of people say, wow, I you know, I see myself differently now, which is you know, that's the ultimate compliment. Uh the uh most people aren't. I mean, you know I have a that's a really good question. I mean, I I I think most people aren't. Uh you know, and it's I don't know. I mean that that that's the you know, I have met the enemy and he is us, you know? Like I think most people understand that if you're gonna open that door, you better be ready to go all the way through it. And uh I mean, I think like a lot of these guys are I mean, they're dealing with something very universal. I mean, I just I wish I had it. I just finished this book of literary criticism about Max Seabold. I'm just a I'm a nut for W.G. Seabold. And uh but like it those books do something to me, and I'm not entirely sure how he gets them to do that. So I've been trying to read literary criticism about it to try to just figure out like what's going on and why, and it really helps. But it was these sort of descriptions of Seabold as being interested in the membrane between the thin or non-existent membrane between the land of the living and the land of the dead, sort of this idea of memory. So I've always been really into that. And I think for athletes, I mean, living and dead, it's often conscious and subconscious. And, you know, I think, you know, and then and then fame is important into this discussion because, you know, fame like drugs and alcohol tends to stunt the person at the emotional age they were when they got famous. And so like that's very important when you're looking at people because the people who got famous later have a better chance of coming out the other side of it. Uh, because like, you know, a lot of these guys, you know, the they're fun, there's functionally very little difference between being the uber star of a high school and being the captain of the New York Knicks. It's just scale at that point. But like in terms of the people you interact with on a daily basis, your life is not that different. I mean, you have money in airplanes and stuff that you, you know, and what the money does is create the bubble. Uh, you know, one of the reasons I thought it was so unfair what the NCAA did to Johnny Manzel is they made him wear all the shitty parts of fame, but they wouldn't let him have the protections from it that real money offers. And like, that's just designed to drive someone crazy. That's almost, they should just do that shit at Guantanamo. Like, we're gonna make you really famous, and then we're not gonna give you the tools to deal with it. Good luck. They wouldn't let Johnny Menzel go across campus in a golf cart, the NCAA was, because it was an unfair advantage that other students didn't have. But of course, other students weren't getting hounded by groupies and autograph seekers and star fuckers and like he couldn't go to class. And so, like, you know, that that that factors into it too.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

I don't know about you, but in the hour or so before run, especially the early morning training runs, I find it helpful to have something easy to grab that actually keeps me going and not feeling like I'm operating on empty right off the bat. Lately, that is why I have been slotting in Kodiak bars to my morning routine. I think everyone has that bar that has earned a permanent spot in their glove box of their car. This one is mine. They come with seven grams of protein per serving, and they are made with whole grains and real ingredients. I am partial to their chocolate chip in s'mores flavors. Find them at Kodiakcakes.com or your local grocery store. They are the ones with the bear on the box. The the Manzell example reminded me. When is when is the best moment in an athlete or coach's life to profile them?

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Well, there isn't a best moment, but it needs to be a moment. I mean, stories aren't true forever, they're true for a moment. Like they're there's it can never be a profile about a person. It has to be about a profile of a person in a time and place. And like those are the best ones. And like you're after the universal, what you're after what is universal for all readers, not what is going to be true for this person forever. You know, you don't assume they're not going to change, you know. The uh and so, you know, I it's whatever they're t currently doing is is I don't think uh but I mean there are sweet spots. I think next year is a much more interesting time to profile Wimby than last year. Uh and I'm doing it. I'm not gonna get him at all. Uh I can't even feel I can't even get to the people to say no.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

So they've they've built the infrastructure around Wemby.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah, yeah. And there's a huge infrastructure around him. And uh so I mean I I can't I mean I I can't get one of his representatives to write back and say no. Uh so I'm just gonna show up in San Antonio and just go to games all year. And talk to everybody I can talk to, and I'll call every human being. I mean, I'll do the thing. You call every human being they've ever met and uh see what shakes out. But it's just it's going to be the time is so interesting that the the that it sort of demands an attempt.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Yeah, and like if it was Wemby, I I've heard you also talk about Popovich being someone that you'd love to profile at some point soon too. Like with these next profiles, are you searching for like another confirmation to any theories you have about how these people operate? Or do you suspect that there's something new there that's gonna reveal itself about like what what what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 45:05

No, I don't you don't want I don't want to take anything in. I don't have like grand unified theories of life that I'm attempting to prove through other people's lives. I just want to know what they're dealing with, how and why. Like every one of them is totally different. Every one of them is specific. Uh when the universal does emerge, it's it has to be inside out, not outside in. Can't be projecting universal shit onto a story arc until you know it. That's how you end up with narrative bullshit. Uh you you you can't, you just got to go in and find out what's going on. I mean, on some levels, the job is very simple. It's like you show up and you try to find things out, uh and then you tell other people those things. I mean, that's actually the job. And so uh, no, I mean, I, you know, I I just re-upped, so I think I got four and a half years left. So that's probably 15 or 16 stories. You know, you don't assume that they're, you know, that this will last forever. And so, you know, certainly you think about, okay, if I got 16 stories left, what are they? Uh but that's like a kind of a debilitating way to think. So you just, it's much more like I'm sitting in my seat in my little weird job looking at the world of sports and the things that are that make me curious or the things that will get that I will attempt to do. Uh, you know, I would like, you know, um like I would really like I'm really into Jurgen Klopp. Like I I would really like to write about Messi. Uh because there's something going on there that's fascinating. Uh I don't know. I mean, I I you sort of take them as they come.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

I'm trying to think of someone who who it was sort of easy for post pro like Dale Murphy. Because I've okay, I I've done a terrible job at promoting the books, but uh got one of them here heavily marked up, the cost of these dreams. One of the profiles in here is Dale Murphy. What what choices did he make in life that made him appreciate the afterlife better than most?

SPEAKER_01 47:16

He is the happiest former athlete or coach I have ever met. Like it's not even close. And I walked away from that. I mean, that's interesting because that profile taught me everything I needed to know about the secret of life, and then I have managed to ignore all of it. But like, Dale. So one of the things he did when he retired was he intentionally killed the avatar of famous ball player. And what he did was he volunteered for a super labor-intensive running the Morbon mission in Boston with lots of young kids. And like, you know, you're responsible for them. And like, it's a serious job. And so that's what they did after he quit playing baseball is he went up and he worked anonymously, thanklessly. He did this hard job. And it was because he was just wanted to be husband and dad and neighbor and friend. And he was killing the avatar of famous ball player because, on some level, he instinctively understood that that person was only going to make his life harder and was only going to draw contrast between the past and the future. And like, so he just was not remotely interested in the identity that he had created that became the source of tremendous admiration. And uh, you know, there's that great John Updite quote, the mask eats the face. And I mean, he says it more eloquently, but uh obviously. Uh but that happens almost universally. And like Dale Murphy intentionally broke the mask before it could eat his face. And, you know, I'm still out here doing this. I should just shut it down and go home, is what I should do.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

So is he is is he unique in the sense that like he had religious, he had a religious backdrop which funneled him into just being a more service-oriented person in his afterlife?

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Like do a lot a lot of these people that just maybe, but like lots of guys act religious. You know? I mean, it it's if everybody who was into religion followed their religion, we would have no problems in the world. You know? Uh the problem isn't, you know, the problem is that most people, like there are all these Catholics now who are saying they know more than the Pope. And I'm like, that's the most human thing I've ever heard. Because we don't want our religion to tell us how to be more humble servants of God and better neighbors and friends. We want our religion to justify the shit that we've already decided to do. So, like, lots of people have religion, but you know, what's the line from the Michael Stanley? Uh uh the Lord uses the good ones and the bad ones use the Lord. Let's get the show on the road, babe. There's a spotlight on the stage. Uh, so like there are very few people, I think, who are who don't have that much invested in the character they play in public to make money and to get praised. Uh, you know, I uh I mean I think about that a lot. Like I I I I care way too much that people think I'm somebody who does these stories kind of well. And like that's not like I gotta get rid of that. You know what I mean? Like on my on my process to like wherever we're all going and you know, to self-realization or whatever, like that's gotta go. And so uh uh I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to like I mean, I think about that stuff all the time. Uh like every now and then if my kids are with me and somebody like wants to take a picture or something or say hello, like they're very curious about that. And so the younger one one day was like, uh, what is that about? And I'm like, it's utterly meaningless. Like just trying to like make sure that they don't think that I think it's important. But I mean, of course I'm lying. So, which they probably know too. But I mean, it it's the you know, the mask eats the face, better break the mask.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Here's a this is kind of a weird question, but it like in professional sports, obviously like father time is undefeated, and these athletes more or less have 10 to 20-ish years to do their craft. Do you get the sense that there's a similar track in sports journalism? Like, do you get a couple decades? Like how how long, like how do you know what feedback do you get that like I'm on the back half of my career, or like I just know that like I'm coming up against the constraints of like how I'm wired?

SPEAKER_01 52:17

That's interesting. Uh I mean, so I've gotten to work with Tom Juneau for the last God, I don't know. I mean, however long years, 10 years. I don't know how long he's been at ESPN. And he's 67, 68, and is still as good at this as he's ever been. And so like that really recalibrated all of this for me. That like, oh, there are other acts, right? That like you can keep doing this in different ways. And so that was very important to me. Uh, you know, Gay Talise has an entire career built basically on two magazine stories that ran within four or five months of each other. You know, Frank Sinatra has a cold and Joe DiMaggio ran, well, I think within four months of each other. I mean, that entire career is four months. You know? So like it it's ve lots of people come up and write a couple of write some great stories. The longevity that you want is you gotta look to people like I mean that's why Tom Gino is the goat to me. Is that he's still like he's still doing it and at the highest possible level. And so, you know, that that's to me, that's like, you know, who's the greatest magazine writer to ever live? Well, I mean, that's pretty I mean it's time. You know, let's argue over who's second.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

You know. One more question about this book in particular. There's there's a moment that I want to hear you reflect on here on the podcast. Urban Meyer, at the time he's the head coach at Florida, this is like the mid-2000s. It's happening in real time. They've just won the national championship. The confetti is flying down on the field, and his instinct is to sprint off the field, run to his office, and start making calls to five-star recruits. He's already thinking about the like he can't enjoy even a millisecond of the moment. He has to run into his office to start making calls to five-star recruits. What does a moment like that reveal about him? Like, what resonated there with you, or what made that moment interesting?

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Well, then it's, you know, we all understand that that sort of the the late-stage capitalist ethic that has embedded itself into American sports post-Machael Jordan, probably uh a sort of zero-sum winning as it, you know, sports as vehicle for domination and not for beauty. You know, there's a difference in how people talked about basketball when they talked about Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, who were winners, than they talk about basketball after Michael Jordan. And so I think that like Urban in that moment was indicative to something we all recognize as being an integral part of what feels like a doomed culture. That like we took this big idea, we've gone too far. And like it's over the mountaintop, it's curdled, it's going downhill and picking up speed. And like the this idea that like, you know, Vince Lombardi was always leading to Bill Belichick, which is the sort of craven, soulless version of Vince Lombardi. Like that it was that it was that it was ordained, that it was written, that it was inevitable that it evolved to this, that like this is what sort of optimizing and, you know, this is what all of this does. I mean, the analytical, the analytics revolution in sports. I mean, all of these things are designed to take the processes that were born in the Springfield Armory and have them applied ruthlessly, methodically across every single part of American public life, as if being optimized is the highest state of evolution that a person, a group, a team, a culture can be, as opposed to being beautiful. And so, like, at some point, like when people are arguing about analytics, they're doing it in a really ham-fisted way from their corners, where it's sort of Luddites versus futurist. And like, that's not really it. It's an argument about optimization versus beauty. And like, what are we doing? And what's the point? You know, is the point that Magic Johnson made this pass, or is that the point that the Lakers won the game? Because I remember the pass, but I don't remember the score. And so, like, I uh that it to me feels like a moment that like really gets at that. In fact, I'm gonna write that down now.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Well, last question for you, and I I promise, I and I really appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

No, man, look, dude, I'm sitting in a hotel room, my kids are driving to meet me at Ted Drew's. Like, I got I got all the time in the world.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Well, because I it you wrote about it in in in this book, that the tools required to gain greatness often prevent that person from enjoying either the process or the spoils of it. And it sounds like what you just said there with Urban Meyer. That's that has never been more at the forefront of our culture than ever. Like it's it's still a scourge on all these athletes, all these coaches. It's it's almost impossible to remove yourself from the it it it it's the nothing is for free.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

I mean, I, you know, I've I've uh think about the really successful old older men I know. You know, a lot of them sit around and talk about the regrets of their relationships with their children. You know, I think you know, there's that great uh Rodney Crowell song, uh It Ain't Over Yet. I love that song. Uh I listened to that almost non-stop writing Steve Kirk. Uh but there's that line in there, uh you know, well, you know what? Let's see. Rodney, I don't want to get it wrong. Lyrics, it ain't over yet. It's a good song. Here we go. Uh well, one line for fools like me who were built for the chase, and then it gets here. I got caught up making a name for myself. You know what that's about. One day your ship comes rolling in, and the next day it rolls right back out, and you can't take for granted none of this shit. The higher up you fly, boys, the harder it is you're gonna get hit. And like, that's a dude who's been there, man. Like, that is fucking like, you know, that those are hard, hard-earned lyrics and true. And so, you know, you gotta remember, like, I I was talking to a young journalist two days ago. Uh you know, there were so many people who helped me that anytime anybody wants help, like, you know, and I was basically saying that like you better be writing the stories because you are enjoying the process. You know, if you get to travel, make sure you travel, see the country, see the world, be in the place. Don't get so locked into the thing you're doing that you forget to have a human experience in parallel to this work you're doing, because nobody's gonna remember any of these stories. Not really, you know. Uh and so that like you better be enjoying the making of them. Because, like, you know, in a hundred years, they're gonna like remember Jonathan Franzen and like Kiese Lyman and Jesmond Ward. They're not gonna remember fucking me and Seth Wickersham and Bill Simmons and like like, you know what I mean? Like, that this isn't a no one's gonna be having this conversation in 50 years. And so, like, it's just very important to understand that like this shit is temporary and that you better be enjoying the process of making it because that's all there is.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Can I read uh some lyrics to you that I think encapsulate what you said? Yeah, I think you better. You ready? You gotta guess that you gotta guess this song. All right. Tonight I'll be on that hill because I can't stop. I'll be on that hill with everything I got.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

By the way, let me plug a great book now because Seth Wickersham's collection of sports stories is coming out mid-September. You should pre-order it now, and it is called Be On That Hill. No way. Yeah, that song is very important to both of us because it's like that's the whole thing. I got scar, you can't keep me down. I will be on that hill. And like, you know, I love in a competitive situation to walk into a press room. It's like that scene from the movie Ali. Like, I'm willing to die. Is that you? And like, you know, he's get, you know, you have no scars on your face and you cannot handle pressure. Like the uh, you know, the be on that hill, man, and that's the whole thing. It's like uh, I mean, like, and that's the through line for a lot of Seth's work, too. You know, I think uh, I mean, Seth's uh Sean Payton story that just came out, it's really incredible. And I also think that like people keep talking about long form being dead, and you know, Seth just spent an entire season with Sean Payton. I just spent an entire season with Steve Kerr. We were doing those things in parallel, talking to each other. And I would argue that those things are like extreme long form. And, you know, the profile was probably designed by publicists where you pop in and you write about somebody and you help them sell something. And what has happened, especially at ESPN, where we're doing print journalism with television turn television budget expectations, so that like, you know, my entire Steve Kerr story is one day of an E60 shoot, you know, and I'm with him for months. And so like we have the ability to keep going back. And so it in some ways it feels like we are breaking and reinventing something that other people are saying is dying. I just did a whole round of interviews uh to try to like we were promoting this TV show, and everybody wanted to ask, like, is this dying? And the thing I think is like not only is it not dying, like there are people who are like actively engaged in breaking open the idea of what a profile is supposed to be, what it can be, how much it can contain. You know, I've got a story, a serialized story that I don't want to talk about too much that will run next year in Wimbledon, uh next year during Wimbledon, that's basically done now. We're just holding it for that window because it's evergreen. And it could be a book. And we are choosing for it not to be a book. I mean, it's going to be some extreme sort of I mean, what we're pushing the boundaries of what the form can be. And so, like, you know, people talk about is this dying? Not only is it not dying, certainly at our place, I think we're pushing the boundaries of a genre. And like Seth is at the absolute forefront of that. I mean, you know, my Steve Kerr thing was very much inspired by the fact that I knew he was going to go do Sean Payton. And so, you know, uh, and so, you know, that there's a, you know, I was just like, oh, that's a really good idea. Uh and you know the stories go completely different because Seth and I are very different and we're interested in different things, but the impulse is the same and the mechanism is the same. And, you know, you know, Seth's unbelievable because it, you know, his last five years were better than the five before that, which were better than the five before that, which were better than the five before that. And like almost nobody is on that trajectory. I mean, I think when they like, when they make the fucking Mount Rushmore of sports writers, he better be on it. And uh, and so all of which is to say, you know, be on that hill. And like, you know, uh, like I I love that song. And like, you know, I also think that that whole album uh is up there with Absalom, Absalom and Gadsby and all the King's men, and as like, you know, and pet sounds as like truly great American art forms. Like, that's one of the things we should send into the fucking spaceship and fly it out when the earth is ending, you know? Like you're making a list of the 10 things. I'm gonna want that record, I'm gonna probably want songs in the key of life, I'm gonna want, you know, I mean, like when you're thinking of like the American achievements in art, like that record is in there because that also absolutely nails sort of the light and dark of a very specific American impulse. Anyway, I love that record.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

Have you have you generally found that if you honor the art form of what you do, the money commerce side of things kind of falls into place?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

I do. And I mean, I want to be careful because I've also been very, very lucky, and I don't want to I don't want somebody who's listening to be like, fuck this guy. So like I I say this understanding that like I've been extraordinarily lucky, but like it was never, it was always let's go try to be great at this. And then all the other stuff just happened. I mean, I I uh and you know, don't tell them, but I would do it for free, you know? Uh like I would be writing something for someone. And so uh I think like here's what I think. I think if you're getting paid five dollars a word by ESPN or the Atlantic, or you're getting paid a quarter a word to write something for your local newsletter, you better bring all of you to both of those things. And if you were bringing different levels of yourself to them, then that's a real problem. And so, you know, I, you know, I write freelance stuff sometimes, like one-offs garden for like Garden and Gun, the magazine, and uh, you know, sometimes like just for different magazines, and like those are full swings. You know, it's I care a lot about the craft, and especially if we're talking about like sports writing, you know, I care a lot about the idea that this is a very specific American thing that we are in a chain of that has had varying degrees of health and sickness, and you know, everything has peaks and valleys. And, you know, I think that, you know, I think we're I think we are doing, at least at ESPN, I think there's a group of us that are as sort of ambitious and genre busting as anyone's ever been. Like, I don't want to compare the results because like, you know, 1970 Sports Illustrated is pretty fucking great. You got Bill Mack and Frank DeFord on the same staff. You know what I mean? Holy shit. And like, and Rick Tallender, you know, and Curry Kirkpatrick, and, you know, I guess I don't know if Jenkins was still there, but like, you know, and Mark Cram, uh, you know, on and on and on and on and on. And so like that's pretty hard to, you know, they were probably better than us. But, you know, we are actively engaged in trying. And uh it's uh, you know, these kind of stories certainly feel healthy from where I'm sitting. And, you know, we're also you know, it's weird to say this at the very end of something since it i I could have said his name in every single sentence, but like, you know, there is no great, there is no good sports writing without really good editors. And so, you know, uh we have the very best in the world right now, and a guy named Eric Neal. And, you know, he edits me and Tom and Seth and uh, you know, Dotune and uh whose fucking uh I mean his Joel Embiid story was probably the best thing I read last year. And uh and like so, you know, Eric sits atop a group of very sort of ambitious people, but you know, when when they close the book on all of us, that book is going to be about Eric Neal, right? So like that's very important to know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

Last, last question, I promise, last question. And I think I think this is uh a reference to Populand, your book Populand, which I don't have in front of me, but I read it. You talk about how you can either be an ancestor or a ghost to your future. How do you know what you're becoming?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

You don't. I think you try. You know, I think you should come do this podcast with one of my daughters in 30 years and ask. Cause I won't know, I'll be dead. Uh you know, I tell them the thing my mom told me, which is any mistake I've made was out of love or ignorance, so I don't want to hear from your therapist. And so, like, I'm gonna tell them that. It's like, look, I'm not always right, but you can always assume good intentions. Like, you know, where uh but I I don't think you know. I mean, I'm certainly conscious of it. And, you know, one of the reasons that I wrote The Barn was almost like to explain to my girls where they're like where they live. Uh and and to let them see clearly, nakedly, uh in a totally vulnerable way, all the ways in which I was unable to put down inherited things with the understanding that if they watch me struggle with them in public openly, earnestly, and honestly, that that might help them one day in their own struggle. But the to answer your question, I don't think you know. By the way, that's stolen directly from Springsteen from his Broadway show. Like, and I I credit him in the book, but like that whole idea of being an ancestor or ghost is by the way, that that that is a direct line to darkness on the edge of town.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:19

Right, Thompson. Thank you so much for your time. Look forward to uh whatever comes next.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Thanks so much. This was great. I I really appreciate you asking.