How John Fitzgerald Coached Jennifer Lichter to a Western States Course Record

Three weeks after Jennifer Lichter set a new course record at Western States, her coach John Fitzgerald joins the Singletrack Podcast to break down how it happened. Fitzgerald coaches an elite squad out of Missoula for Carmichael Training Systems, and this year he guided Jen to the win along with Jeff Mogavero and Adam Peterman into the men's top ten.

We get into the philosophy underneath the results: why consistency is a trainable skill, why willpower is a resource you can spend too early, and what he means when he says success is rented. Fitzgerald explains the mental shift that took Jen from a mountain 50K specialist to a 100-mile course record holder, the on-course training camps that prepared his athletes for every crux of the Western States course, race-day fueling improvisations, downhill running as a skill, and his case for simplicity in a sport chasing every new gadget and lab test.

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Additional Links:

• Coaching Profile
• Instagram: @ackfitz

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

John Fitzgerald, great to have you on the Single Track Podcast. How are you doing this? I guess it's like late July-ish Monday morning.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Yeah. Yeah, doing well. Yeah, just uh Sunday I got out for a fun little mountain ramble in the Tobacco Root Mountains. So it was kind of one of those like soul-filling uh runs that we we all need at some point. So uh yeah, otherwise cup of coffee and getting the Monday started.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

So I first of all, tobacco root has to be one of the coolest names for a mountain range I've ever heard. Uh for those in the audience that aren't familiar, sell us on the majesty of the tobacco root mountains.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yeah, the tobacco, they're they're not too far from where I live in Helena. They're about like a 90-minute drive, so it's a little bit outside of town. Um, they've got, I think it's like over 40 peaks, over 10,000 feet. So not super high, but um, it's a multi-use network. So they do have uh motobikes and some parts of the tobacco routes. Um we had high winds this winter, so I kind of strategically went there figuring that the motos would clear some of the trail, um, which they did, which I was very grateful for. But yeah, there's a really cool range. It kind of reminds me of lots of parts of Colorado, too, where you get up high and it's just like exposed ridges where you can just kind of have fun and run wherever you want. Um and uh really popular for backcountry skiing as well. So really good link ups for backcountry skiing. Um, lots of high alpine lakes with good fishing. And yeah, even with there being multiple use access, you really don't see many people out there. So it can be just a fun, fun mountain range to explore where you really feel like you're you're out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Very cool. Well, I figure where we could start this conversation is with, if you don't mind, a little bit of a game. I've heard, I've written down three phrases that I have heard you use uh in various settings, and I figure I could state the phrase and then you could sort of explain sort of the rationale or the meaning behind it. Cool. I'm I'm I'm game for that. First one, consistency is a skill.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah, so I we I've talked about that before, and I think a lot of people think consistency is just getting out the door day after day. But I think well, what what gets you to that spot where you can do that? And I think a big part of that is like the way that you think about training. Um, so I've brought up this kind of like mental model way of approaching training, and I think thinking about what you do today, how does that affect tomorrow way of thinking? And I think that just gets at athletes thinking about training stress and trying to keep the work consistent um and sustainable over time, and ultimately that's gonna be the big driver for endurance performance. So, yeah, picking up skills, whether it's like you know, leaving ego at the door and you're gonna go in a group run with some friends and you know, someone you know might be pushing the pace a little bit, or you're gonna be okay, kind of falling back a little bit, you know. So ultimately kind of getting better at making good decisions day after day, um, I think is something that takes practice. It just doesn't happen naturally for a lot of athletes. So um, but yeah, it all ties back to that sustainable training process.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

And I guess based on what you're saying, it's not, I mean, for some people it is a gift and maybe it does come naturally, but you're saying that it is totally trainable. That if you don't find yourself at the current moment being a consistent person, this is something that you can work on with your coach.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

100%. Yeah, if you find that there's days, you know, where it's like, oh, I need a rest day, or you know, um, you're just feeling like you're kind of in the a little bit of this survival mode, which we can kind of uh athletes can often get into where they just feel like they're just hanging on. They're looking forward to that Monday rest day, for example. I think going back to that that skill mindset of how to keep consistent and what are those behaviors that we have in the daily training process that can help us stay consistent. Um and and it and they're they're pretty easy, right? It comes back to like what we talked about, like intensity control. Like today we're we're trying to go easy. Are we actually doing that? Um, and so kind of having that that management and that that discipline to kind of commit to that. Um, but yeah, I think the the behavior gets shaped over time. And I think it's you know, surrounding yourself with people that hopefully are, you know, uh uh thinking the same way or at least trying to approach the training process that way helps. Uh but uh it's something that takes deliberate practice and just, you know, whether it's phrases that you tell yourself, um I'm always reinforcing it with my athlete. So it's kind of a little bit over the top. So they hear about it most days or see it in the workouts. So it's kind of a constant reminder.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Next one here. Willpower is a depletable resource.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Yeah. So I, you know, I look at like just observing athletes and their process and how they approach training is that they they they tap into willpower too much. You know, we talked about this a little bit about you know, chasing confidence and maybe pushing through or forcing workouts. I think that we're inevitably tapping into willpower or ego. And so I look at ego as like a tool in the training process. And, you know, if we're using that day after day, it's like, well, how can we keep this up? You know, and then what when it comes race day, if we've got to dig deep, you know, on race day, are we really going to have that reserve, you know? So I think, you know, thinking about willpower as a tool that we can use in training and and try not to use that on a daily basis because it can be depleting and get to the point where maybe we're dealing with an overuse injury because we are forcing our way through the training process. We're entering this kind of survival mode uh of training, which is, you know, not the best place to be, because inevitably we have to take more time down to kind of recruit from that. So yeah, willpower and ego as a tool in the training process, I think is a big one.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

How often are you testing maybe what I would call the reserve in training? Like, is that something that actually does come about in the training block, or can you sort of expect it to be there on race day as just like a natural outflow of all the work you've put in in the months preceding?

unknown 6:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Well, again, I think it depends on how you're approaching the training and if it really is sustainable. If you're not, you know, if you have this kind of like uh like almost like an 80% mentality with the work, like you're you're you're definitely leaving more to give. I think if you're finishing up workouts, and it doesn't even have to be intensity, it could be a long run, just just on the limit. Like I think that's where I find that athletes are kind of tapping into that kind of reserve more and more. So I'm kind of keeping tabs on that. Like, are we finishing up the workouts well? And I think if there's more of a theme with that and it's more consistent, um, then I think the athlete's gonna be setting themselves up for more to give on race day when it really matters. And it could be even just like problem solving. It doesn't even have to be like the physical piece, the like the mental piece for sure. Because there's a psychological cost to, you know, pushing hard in training, like frequent, right? Of course there's gonna be hard days, but if that's just the general theme, you just gotta wonder like, are we gonna have that that that that reserve on on race day when it really matters? And and that's where I see a lot of athletes make mistakes. They're just they're firing off too many shots in the training process that they could kind of they could keep a foo a few more bullets in the chamber.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, the last time we talked, the phrase you used for this, I think was uh there's a cost to chasing confidence in training.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah, it's it can be self-sabotaging in the in the way of just, you know, uh developing consistent work over time, you know, which I believe is the the the underpinning of of performance is just that that chronic load that we develop over time. And, you know, if we chase confidence, whether it's a training race or in a workout itself, you know, to be like, okay, the work I'm doing, it's it's actually, you know, I am fit. See? Um, it can throw us off from doing the basic fundamental work consistently. Um and that that could that could mean just, you know, having to rewrite training or having to take a bit of a D load, which if we're doing that on and off, it sounds nitpicky, but that does affect your your chronic load and and that buildup of aerobic work over time. Um yeah, so it can be very costly to do it. And always thinking about opportunity costs when I'm programming or thinking about doing uh, say, a training race ahead of an athlete's goal race. It's like, what what could we be doing instead? If we weren't doing this, you know, what you know, what what could we do? You know, is this worth it?

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Last last phrase for you here. Success is rented.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Success is rented. Um, yeah. So this actually came from a quote. I heard it from a mentor of mine, Joel Filial. He's a uh Olympic trathlon coach who um he's been a huge help in my career as a coach. And yeah, I think it just goes to like, you know, you you have success, you win one of the biggest races in the world, and it's like the next day you gotta put your pants on, and you know, life goes on. And and so it's, you know, I think this mentality of like, well, what what got us here? You know, was it you know, likely consistent work and and commitment and dedication to the training process, and that doesn't change after you have success. You know, you've got to continue to show up. And of course, there's gonna be maybe different uh uh different different approaches that we might take or things that we've got to work on. Um, but yeah, the work continues, right? Um you gotta keep showing up.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

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SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah, so he's been a huge inspiration. I first heard about Joel back in like 2009 or 10. So when I was studying at the University of Montana, my roommate Elliot Bassett, who was pursuing endurance coaching, and he was a big influencer of mine to kind of pursue coaching as well. I thought I was gonna be a physical therapist. I was going down that track, and my friend Elliot was like, no, I'm uh this is what I'm gonna do full-time. I'm gonna coach endurance athletes. And so it was really inspiring and kind of planted that seed. And I remember coming across Joel Filliol, who was training with a squad in Victoria, British Columbia. And that's where I kind of got this team environment kind of approach with my athletes, because that's a big part of his coaching, is like create that environment, that thriving environment for the athletes. And so um, yeah, so we ended up kind of syncing and you know, he's been a mentor and really influential on how I coach athletes. And his big approach is that around that sustainability and doing the basics, like the best that you can do. And um, yeah, and I'm seeing it pay off with my athletes for sure. And just being able to be in that unique unique situation with my athletes here in Montana where I get to see not on a daily basis, but just enough to have that good check-in that helps with that decision making.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Is it um has it and yeah, maybe it's maybe it does extend beyond Joe to some extent, but like have you found as a coach in the ultra world that it has been helpful to pay attention to other endurance sports?

SPEAKER_02 13:04

100%. Like uh, you know, I find I'm I'm looking, you know, for example, like Joe Filio, a triathlon coach, um, looking in the cycling world as well. Um and yeah, just because they, I mean, ultrarunning and in the competitive side of ultrarunning is relatively new compared to to sport of cycling, for example. So definitely gleaning a lot from uh coaches in the cycling space and um triathlon, I mean motor sports. Um, yeah, I I look all over the place. It's not just ultrarunning because there's really, I mean, not a lot out there, to be honest. Like, I mean, there's relatively new. I mean, when Jason Coop hired me on, he had just written his book, Training Essentials for Ultrarunning, back in 2015. And so, not to say there wasn't any information prior to that, but it was just still like, you know, getting past is just go out and run more. Like, you know, training for an Ultra isn't just a long, longer marathon, like there's other variables. So uh, but yeah, definitely gleaning from other sports, cross-country skiing as well. Um, so I kind of come from a Nordic skiing background myself, and um, you know, getting a lot of um inspiration from how they train and and things that I can take away from that sport.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

How how different can the sport be before you start to stop? Like, for example, could you pull stuff from mountain biking? Could you pull stuff from downhill skiing? Like, is there stuff there as well? Like how big is the orbit that you can pull from?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

I mean, it uh it's really big. I mean, obviously, ultrarunning and and running in general is unique in in the sense of the mechanical overload, where a lot of these sports don't have that piece. So you have to kind of obviously take that into consideration. There's a lot of polls from different sports, but they're lower impact. So there's different approaches that they might take that aren't going to work for a runner. Uh, but we were talking about kind of like developing the downhill skill, and I think there's something there. I've noticed some athletes coming from like ski mountaineering or mountain biking that if you think about the speeds at which they're going downhill on some pretty technical terrain, you just have to wonder like, uh, is there any, like, how are they developing that skill? Is there anything that we can take from, you know, mountain bikers that are that are flying downhill on really technical terrain? Like, you know, what are they doing in training to prepare for that? Is there any takeaways that we can bring into the sport of ultrarunning? Um, so yeah, in different ways, I think you can glean a lot from different sports and take little slivers and aspects into ultrarunning.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, I was thinking more about that uh point after we talked last time. And it it it it kind of in retrospect, it kind of blows my mind the speeds that they're going downhill and how quickly they have to react and read the terrain on a moment-by-moment basis. Like I don't know how you simulate that in ultra, but like that just seems like a massive uh like skill to have.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah, 100%. Um, yeah, who is it, the German ultra runner, Hannes Nomberger? Yeah. I remember him. He has a ski background. I remember him, uh, there's an interview I I listened to, and he gained a lot of confidence, obviously, both from like the the uphill ability with skiing, but also just being able to be psychologically mentally kind of uh prepared for some of the longer downhills. Um just with the type of training that it took in skiing to prepare the legs and the mind for going at that speed downhill. So again, it's not like a direct translation, but I think there's little little pieces that you can that you can take from it.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Um I want to come back to the downhill piece towards the end of the conversation. There's a lot to discuss about Western states, uh, at least by my account and by a lot of sort of media folks who are following Western this year, huge success for you, your athletes, the broader CTS team. Um maybe using Jen Lichter as an example. I think this could be instructive for a lot of people that are listening, regardless of ability level. When an athlete like Jen moves up in distance, especially when she's sort of classically hung out in that like mountain 50k realm for such a long period of her career. Talk about the shifts that have to happen in their mental models for how to train at sort of these new distances, like getting ready for Black Canyon earlier this year, getting ready for Western states last month.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Right. Yeah, I think the the big shift we talked about this a little bit is around like the specificity of training for like the 50k distance. Obviously, the duration's gonna be anywhere between four and a half to like five and a half, six hours in that range. And so the specific training for that's gonna look quite different than training for you know 100k block can and getting a little closer just because the durations she finished just under eight hours, right? But once you're bumping up to you know 15 plus hours, there's gonna be a big shift in the specificity and what that what that training looks like. And so I think the shift for Jen specifically was around that uh intensity distribution and um creating some space and room to progress some of that volume that was gonna be so critical for uh her performance, especially at Western States, but also Black Canyon. Um so just thinking about kind of that that way of approaching training around like sustainability, um, you know, not having it be like the easy days, especially keeping really easy to set up well for the quality training. Um whereas I noticed in past training it was a little bit this gravitation towards the middle. Um, just everything was kind of moderate, you know, approach, which you can kind of get away with short term, but I think when you think long-term development, that's not the best approach to have. Um, so that was the big shift, the way about thinking about the training, thinking about going back to the basics, right? Kind of learning how to train again in a lot of ways, of keeping easy training easy, um, giving space to progress training load, right? Because when you're up on the limit far out from a race, you got to ask yourself, well, where do we go from here? Like, how do you know where how do we progress? We're on the limit now. You know, our race is in eight weeks, like uh where's that progression, right? Um so by shifting that that intensity distribution and and creating space to progress volume, that allowed for this um like new stimulus, right? Because it was just new territory for her progressing that volume. But where a lot of people shake their heads like, well, how is someone doing these big weeks? And again, it goes back to like that intensity control and management of the training intensity and making sure that we're keeping more on the table with each session. And on paper, it might look crazy, but at the end of the week or the block, it's actually really not that bad, you know, and we should be able to repeat that work week after week.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Yeah, and I again this is especially for folks like myself who are uh quite uneducated when it comes to training theory. If if I'm just looking at sort of like, I'll call it the size of these runs, like I was following, for example, Abby Hall's build-up to Western this year, and I was just amazed at the number of five, six, seven-hour runs that were compressed into like a two to three month period before Western, I was like, wow, like that's that's amazing. And I and I wonder what type of toll that takes on the athlete. But again, just to hear what you say here, like if you're keeping into intensity in check and you've been building appropriately, that should be fairly easily processed.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Yeah, and again, the context of like, well, what is the athlete doing prior to that specific phase of that that shift to that higher volume? So you don't you don't just show up to five, six, seven hour runs. So, you know, I talked a bit about Jen. Like in in in a lot of ways, she was training for longer distance ultras, 100K north for for many years just because she was able to tolerate that high intensity and slightly high volume at the same time, uh, which you don't see a lot. A lot of athletes just can't do that, right? Um, so that's a a unique trait, I guess, of Jen. But I knew that there was more there. And I think it's like, you know, I'm always thinking about like, how do we set up well for that specific phase? Like, what do we do today to put the athletes in the best possible position to tolerate that specific work well? If we do these weeks extremely well, we're gonna perform well, right? We're gonna be in a really good spot to express ourselves on the day. And so, yeah, there's a lot of work that you do ahead of time before that, those bigger blocks of volume, so that you can tolerate it well.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Um I'm not sure if this is the right question to ask. So, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were to rank order the riskiness of like all of the fundamental factors of you know building up for Western, and especially you were to compare intensity versus volume. or duration on a weekly basis, is is intensity sort of a riskier variable in that process than than duration of training or volume of training?

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Yeah, 100%. Right. I I I think if you if you really have that intensity control with the with the easy running, um, the impact forces are lower, right? If you're in the mountains, you're probably leaning on a bit more hiking to keep that intensity in check, right? So the impact forces generally are much lower. When you go to high intensity, then we're asking a much greater muscular demand on the bones, tendons, ligaments need to take that loading, two and a half, three times your body weight as that speed goes up. And again, if we have this approach of like more is better or pushing at the upper end of range, which there's this tendency to do that. Like if we're doing intensity, we've got to be on the upper end of the range, right? Not on the low end. That's not good. We've got to be upper end. And so I think if you're finishing up those sessions kind of spent or just like cooked or smoked, whatever these words might you might hear, it's definitely a higher mechanical load, right? Of course, if you're going down a long sustained descent, there's the mechanical load there. But I think it's like you know managing the intensity so that we can accumulate volume, right? If we don't manage intensity, then it's harder to accumulate that volume. Meaning like more to give, more reps to give, we're not on the limit. Maybe we're thinking about time that intensity for that athlete and that's going to vary athlete to athlete. But making sure that we're getting that dose right of that intensity so that we can still continue to put in the aerobic volume over time.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Again, maybe using Jen's block as an example uh what what did peak intensity look like and where did you place it in the block?

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Yeah so obviously coming off uh World Champs where um you know she's recovering from the hamstring injury we had a pretty slow buildup to uh to uh Black Canyon uh Black Canyon definitely had some intensity you know it was you know I think that race was it's not a real mountainous race it was going to go up pretty hard. So I wanted to make sure that Jen was well rounded and could run steady in the beginning but also settle in and have that good aerobic fitness for the back half. The back half of that race is kind of sneaky hard you've got some like little punchy climbs late in the race or we're definitely uh preparing and doing simulations to prepare for that steady monotonous running to a steeper five, 10 minute hill climb. But I I'd say where more of the focus intensity came was actually after Black Canyon ahead of Gorge. And it was a pretty small specific phase for Gorge 50k because we didn't really have a lot of room between Block Canyon and Gorge. But that's where we uh got into uh a lot of Loctate threshold work, tempo running uh some VO2 max work. Um volume with that intensity was a bit lower just to make room for recovery for those sessions. So typically when intensity comes up volume inevitably will come down a bit. And so yeah I'd say that that window there, what would that have been like March March was kind of a heavier intensity block for Jen.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

And then like in in sort of like the prime Western states block like in the month of May for example uh what percentage of like any given weekly volume were you devoting to intensity and what types of you know what categories of paces were you trying to hit yeah so after recovery from gorge um we held on to a little bit of intensity after that um that mostly came in the way of a training race here in my hometown of Helena the Don't Fence Man 50K so yeah uh there was inevitably going to be you know some intensity within that 50k um uh but that that really was kind of more of the transition from like higher intensity work if you will and I'd say from a percentage probably in that like I don't know 10 to 20 percent of uh of the volume volume came from intensity and after that it kind of we got more into high end aerobic work uh so a lot of steady state uh climbing and flat level running and and not a lot of lactate threshold or VO2 none really none uh maybe maybe one or two sessions of tempo but uh not not not a lot it was mostly kind of making room for that specific work for for Western states which is which is going to be volume and and uh some steady state work. One of the topics that I wanted to discuss with you was um the the on course training camps that you did as a as a team for Western states and I have a bunch of questions about it but I guess like first just like thinking about the history of these for how long has this sort of been like either a priority for you or CTS? Like I've always been familiar with a lot of these athletes going to the official Western states training camp at the end of May but um like how old and or recent are these specific focused camps that you're doing at CTS?

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Pretty new as far as getting like my elite squad together to train together on the course. I've been doing training camps actually back in 2011. I did my first training camp in Lake Tahoe. And so they've always been a really fun part for me as a coach to like be with the athletes in person. You know uh and these camps started not necessarily as like course recon per se, but just like a good time with athletes. And um you know my goal as a coach is to be able to get elite athletes together where they could train together. And again it feeds off of this training environment concept of like building culture and um being able to be there in person with the athletes for me as a coach is absolutely huge to be able to get to know them better but ultimately like make better decisions based on the feedback, the body language, their mood it even gets me thinking about like the next steps based on the feedback I'm getting in the moment during the training camp. Being able to support them crewing as well like out on the course. Hopefully being able to share some miles with them if I you know it's they're easy as my moderate. So um but uh yeah it's been really cool. It started with the Black Canyon course recon when Jen decided to go to Black Canyon. The cool thing is that I've had other athletes not even Missoula based athletes come to the camp. So Will Murray actually came out uh to the Black Canyon camp which is super cool and uh the Missoula squad opened him up with open arms and they're good friends to to this day and train together quite a bit. He's come out to Missoula to train with them um uh a couple times or actually once and um so no it's like they're super valuable and I think just like to have fun in the training process like they're putting in big days and you know training hard and like whenever I can get the group together and just like have some good laughs like off the trail and just create that good energy it's I it's a big part of their training process and I think a big part of their success too is getting to know the course, the ins and outs. Black Canyon for example uh quite technical footing coming from Missoula. So I knew if like we're gonna do this right like let's get down on the course and get a sense of the how the tr the trail runs and get a sense of pacing on there. So yeah I to be honest I'm surprised there's not more coaches and athletes actually getting together and doing this. It goes back to my inspiration and mentor Joel Fillial like he spends a good part of the year actually with his athletes in training camp for like a month at a time and unique in the sport of travel on that you can be on the pool deck and like read your athletes and be with your athletes on the pool deck or if you're if they're out on the bike, you can maybe go out on a mountain bike or a scooter and be with your athletes on the bike. Trail running becomes a little bit trickier with that. You know, unless you're really fit and you can go hang with your elite athletes for five hours in the mountains it's going to be hard to be with them for every session. But being able to crew them along the way is super helpful to support the athlete but then also to get that feedback from um how they're getting along and how they're doing. So no it's like a highlight for me throughout the year is these training camps.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Do you anticipate meet maybe even as early as next year or at certainly in the future do you anticipate the duration of these camps or the frequency of these camps increasing? Like it's like for for using Black Canaan as an example do you anticipate either multiple trips in the same block or like a longer period of time spent out there?

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah I'm always respectful of like the athletes and like their rhythm and flow in the training process and try not to interrupt that you know there's a reason why you know they live where they live they've got beautiful trails and and uh and and people to surround themselves back at home but I think if we're looking to you know obviously get on the course and get get familiar with the course I think that's huge. You're gonna see a lot more of that and you already see that with like UTMB a lot of athletes go out to UTMB and and do the do the tour around Mont Blanc or you know get out there in advance and train on the course. But I think this like team setting where there's like one coach with a group of athletes like I I would hope to see more of that. I mean I think it you know the uh coaches coming together with their athletes in person um but yeah I I I think we'll see more of it. I'm definitely invested more in that personally so kind of already plotting and planning some camps even for next year.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

When you're out like for if we go back to you know two months ago middle end of May whenever sort of like your last Western states training camp was if you can walk us through an example of a race day simulation challenge that you're putting these athletes through as a test for for race day.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah. So the Western States camp one simulation we did was actually one of the first days we actually we did like a shakeout like team run before the big day but we ended up going from Robinson Flat uh down to the to the river. Um so a pretty big day that was like 47 miles on that day. And I had the group do some um steady state work on some of the climbs in the canyon not that they were going to be going at that effort but just to get a feel for like that might be a little bit too much right if we don't go there then we don't really know. So it was a kind of a test and like pacing strategy and getting a feel for what that right effort was. So I intentionally had some steady state climbing both in the canyons and then also after the canyons. And so Will Murray uh Jeff McGaffro were running together and then Jen was actually solo just behind them. And so I crewed them at Michigan Bluff Forest Hill and then down to the to the river. And so that was a good way just to get that intuitive feel for pacing both in the canyons and then after Forest Hill.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Practicing like surging at all any other sort of like minute details inside race pace?

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Fueling for Jen was a big one so we had made sure we had some different things to play with uh at the cruise stops. We were doing cooling as well although that day it wasn't that warm. You know it was actually pr actually funny it was actually quite similar to race day which actually added to the confidence for the athletes like oh this was like this is going to be the same temperature as as the training camp. This is like what we were training in. So that ended up being uh quite a confidence builder there. But yeah I'd say the big ones around like cooling strategy um playing with the different uh different nutrition that they might grab at their plan B options potentially um and then practicing some of the the pacing on the downhills like the Robinson flat that long section just getting a feel for that pacing going downhill was a big one um and then also the important one I think is a big crux of Western states is forest hill down of the river. Yeah um a lot of people think it's just smooth sailing down of the river but there's actually quite a bit of little punchy climbs in there right um so I think really getting a sense of pacing that section was another big part to that run. One other simulation we did I strategically had this on like the last day was um a steady push. So we did Greengate uh to the finish. They did run down to the river and then climb back up to Greengate just to get a feel for that climb up. And then I had uh Jen, Will, and Jeff do a push from pointed rocks to the track. So I kind of had a feeling there might be you know some bumping of elbows there might be some close uh some racing happening and so I think that was another one that I think could benefit uh mentally too right to be like hey I've I've pushed from 94 miles in you know like and they did this at the end of the camp so they're under a bit of fatigue right um so I think that was a good good good move.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Precision fuel and hydration is the official nutrition partner of the show. You saw a few of their athletes really nail it at Broken Arrow in Western states late last month Lottie Brinks Jeff McGavro Rachel Drake Eli and Tabor Heming just to name a few. Besides that I know we talked about it ad nauseum last week but I have to reiterate Precision has an awesome new product to try and that is their watermelon flavored chews. They taste great they contain 30 grams of carbohydrate per serving that's delivered as two by 15 gram chews no artificial ingredients and they have a high carb to weight ratio making them a great choice when you need to travel light. I personally love bringing them along for longer training days when I want just a little bit more variety alongside gels and drink mix go check them out at Precisionhydration.com or use the special link in our show notes and as always feel free to use code SINGLETRAC at checkout for 15% off your next order. Raid is the official equipment partner of the SingleTrack podcast we have been receiving a lot of DMs on Instagram about their latest product the LF5L their first running vest which is awesome by the way it is still sold out but you can add your name to the mailing list for earliest notification I'm told it should go back in stock this month. In the meantime my favorite belt on the market the LF2L is back in stock. This was built to enhance the freedom of running and going further with nothing on your back if that is your jam go check it out at raidresearch.com that's r-a-i-d-e research dot com a few questions first uh on on the fueling piece for Jen obviously on race day now famously at least in the second half you know fueled on bread and Coca-Cola was that experimented with in this camp um not the bread no not the wonder bread the coke definitely was that's something Jen's like used on and off um even in like 50k racing uh but the coke came up I I think this is already out there too Jen getting sick uh the the the Wednesday before the race so I remember sitting down at the coffee shop in the village and the plan B was going to maybe to gravitate towards some like cookies as like something to you know with the cooler temperatures just to break up the the sports uh nutrition and I remember her just looking at me saying like I don't I'm not gonna be able to eat those cookies.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Like that's just not going to happen. You know? So I immediately went to kind of like thinking of like bland food that we could go to and Wonder Bread came up and um they actually had some on course I didn't think they would but they had Wonder Bread on course. We had we ended up going out and getting our own bread yeah but that definitely was not experimented with at all um the bread piece.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

And then it was it was a cooler year this year. I guess it ended up mimicking the conditions during training like you said. If the race had been hot, what were the details of the you know heat mitigation plan yeah so with uh the cooling strategy was going to be um you know starting actually kind of they all grabbed an ice bandana at Robinson so that was gonna be the the the start uh possibly before Robinson we we'd maybe do a dunk or two but definitely ice bandana on at Robinson and then uh CTS we've got we started a couple years ago using like a a pool, a kiddie pool yeah um with ice um so the most effective way to cool lower core temperatures like total body submergent right uh in in cold water ice bandana is effective but not nearly as effective as actually submerging your body in cold water um so that definitely was going to be the plan starting at Michigan Bluff was to submerge for you know 10 seconds 15 seconds um so that ended up not happening just with where the temps were um so we ended up just going with yeah ice bandana and sponges and that kind of stuff um and then uh forest till was also going to be another spot with the kitty pool um and uh we do we just didn't even have one out there so as I was saying earlier like it again to me at least it's it appeared to be a massive success for you and your team uh but you know with two to three weeks of reflection is there anything that you are thinking about changing in terms of how you coach towards this race in the future um I mean there's a lot obviously we did quite well um uh as far as reflection to be honest I'm kind of still processing it I think you know it it it uh it seems like it's far removed but definitely still going back or mulling over the training um you know thinking about things that we would do different um for like any particular athlete or just in general like um I mean I think like like for like even with like tapering like do you feel like your your current taper strategy is appropriate? Like is there anything you would tinker with there?

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Yeah that that's a good point and that's actually the one thing that's come up is um yeah how we approach the taper. It you know it totally depends on the context of what the athlete's putting in how many consistent weeks they put into training uh really plays into it but as these athletes just year after year you know accumulate more and more work right their training is going to look differently right it's not gonna be like we're just gonna try to hit that same you know peak workload that we did in the last build. But I think there's something there with more experienced athletes of kind of shifting that specific phase just a little bit closer to the race and kind of building momentum as we get a little bit closer. So having not not to say it's like less of a taper, but trying to hold on to some of those feel goods and like keeping that momentum going a little bit closer to the race. So it might might change a little bit of that periodization slightly but we're talking like shifting a couple weeks here and there. Okay is kind of what I've been looking at. But um yeah I think there's something there about you know if you cut back the volume a bit too much, you know, athletes are typically doing quite a bit of volume it can kind of leave you feeling a little flat sometimes you know so trying to get that right there's a bit of an art with that there's obviously a science with tapering as well but um trying to make sure the the athlete's in a good head space and we're not shutting things down too early. So yeah definitely looking at the taper where we can make some improvements.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

In again in in your opinion acknowledging sort of the science and the art of it is there a certain percentage cut where you see a sort of like the line where things become risky on either side of it? It's like I'm gonna cut 50% a week or two out. Like where is that line for you?

SPEAKER_02 41:57

I mean again it depends on each individual athlete and like where they're coming from and the type of training they were putting in how many weeks right if an athlete has a much longer denser build of training then we're respecting that and the taper starts a bit sooner at least that's the way I approach it. You know obviously the length of the race depends too if it's a 50k or 100 mile or the the taper might change. Big thing for me is that we're keeping the rhythm and flow like typical microcycle typical week of training is going to kind of look pretty similar but we're dialing back both the volume and intensity but definitely keeping the intensity there. And that's where I think athletes get wrong is they there's this fear of like showing up tired, you know, because if they do intensity or if they do too much they're gonna show up tired. But really with the taper we're gonna see you know anywhere between like two and three percent in you know improvement, right? So I mean it's not nothing but like you know so I think yeah making sure that we're keeping the rhythm and flow with training we're dialing back volume and intensity but keeping that same type of intensity so if you're doing steady state or hydrobic work that doesn't just completely go away in the taper. We're still working that in just the volume of intensity comes down. So yeah getting that right the the the tapering is so individual you know um some athletes respond a bit better to keeping a little bit more volume i in the taper um but that typically is gonna yeah with an athlete that tolerates a pretty high volume in general um they they might just feel better keeping some of that easy aerobic work in there um but yeah we're talking like two three weeks out not like race week race week we're yeah you know yeah we're talking like starting three weeks out from from race day I just have a few more Western questions before I have a bunch of sort of miscellaneous stuff for you.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

And again this this one's about Jen. If you reflect back on like your analysis of her Western training block and What you thought could be possible, both on like sort of like the most optimistic side of things in the middle of the bell curve, maybe like a B plus type day. Um where did this course record performance, you know, running 15, 28, I'm gonna blank on the exact number, but like, you know, a minute or two under Courtney's time, like where did this performance land in terms of what you thought was possible for her on race day?

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I mean, seriously, like with how well her build went and like how well she tolerated the specific training, there was no doubt that she could win the race. The question was whether around like break Courtney DeWalter's long-standing course record, like I didn't think that that could maybe happen. I mean, that that that was a really stout record. I mean, it has been talked about as one of the greatest performances like of all time, right? Like running that fast on that course. And um, we never really got really deep into splits. That's just not where Jen performs well as being like wrapped up in time. I think it takes away from what she can give forth in racing, um, taking care of herself and and giving her best effort forth. But yeah, I I for sure, based on her training and her build, like she can win, right? Like she could win the race. She's 100% capable. Like we're not putting any limitations on that. Um obviously the unknown was the fueling for that duration, was like the one yeah, piece that we were that I just we didn't know how it was gonna go, right? She had never gone that far. So I knew that if she could take care of herself and fuel well that that she could win the race.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

And then maybe this one is uh well, let me just ask you. So as you have seen the sport get more competitive, more depth, coaches like yourself know more. Um each race is you know less predictable, more hotly contested over. Do you have as a result of all of those changes and things just getting tougher? Do you have any like new opinions when it comes to uh how many like a performances a given athlete has in them like like for example, seeing Jen win and set a course record at Black Canyon and then turning around and getting another winning course record at Western States? Are we gonna see like, like, for example, is that is that like four or five month timetable of two elite next level performances? Will we see less of those as the environment becomes more competitive?

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Like you're saying, what like consistent uh break breakthrough course record performances year after year?

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Or will it be more will it be tougher for an athlete like Jen or Katie or Courtney to put up three or four of those performances a year because of the increasing demands on any one single race to nail it and be right up there?

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Yeah, I I think so. I think they'll be a little bit more spread out, you know. Um yeah, I do. Um just the competition's getting denser and and just the ability to like show up like in in peak form like that, like you can only show up in that form so many times a year, you know. You you know, you can't you can't peak for five races in a season, you know. Um it's very difficult to do that. So uh but yeah, I think with just the level of competition and yeah, what it takes to prepare mentally and physically for these, like you're not gonna see as many like you're saying consistent uh like course record breakthrough performances. Kind of like going back to Courtney, was it Western States, Hard Rock, ETMB? Yeah. You know, like I I think those are kind of outliers. So you could maybe argue that Jen's on that right now with like Black Canyon, Gorge, Western states, um, even going back to to uh broken arrow and speakoat, but um yeah, that you're not gonna see probably as much of that.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

In in terms of emphasis and intensity priority, did did you and Jen put the same amount of energy into Black Canyon as you did for Western States, or did you have to sacrifice, for example, a little bit from Black Candy to make this Western states possible?

SPEAKER_02 48:22

No, I I actually think we we we put in a really solid build, like what's possible and and definitely, you know, went for it. Like we're gonna, we're we're trying to win this race. Like, again, not with the intention of um, you know, taking the golden ticket. We didn't really know until after Black Candy whether that was going to be uh something that we pursue. Um But yeah, that build just with the time that she had to take down between pre-world championships, where obviously she had the uh Jen had a hamstring injury just before world champs. And then just the build back, I knew we needed to build that chronic load back up and we needed that long runway to do so. But I think that build into Black Canyon was actually really crucial for um the Western States build and uh her success at Western State. So um, and I think that gorge uh little intensity block, if you will, was uh came at a good timing as well.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

I don't know about you, but in the hour or so before run, especially the early morning training runs, I find it helpful to have something easy to grab that actually keeps me going and not feeling like I'm operating on empty right off the bat lately. That is why I have been slotting in Kodiak bars to my morning routine. I think everyone has that bar that has earned a permanent spot in their glove box of their car. This one is mine. They come with seven grams of protein per serving, and they are made with whole grains and real ingredients. I am partial to their chocolate chip in s'mores flavors. Find them at Kodiakcakes.com or your local grocery store. They are the ones with the bear on the box. Before we close up, just a few sort of like miscellaneous questions for you. Earlier in the conversation, and even before this, we were sort of talking about emphasis on downhill running. I've sort of just been amazed at what Ludo did at Hard Rock uh last weekend and sort of his prowess in that category. The last time we talked, you've told me sort of like for downhill running, the physical adaptations come fast, but the skill aspect of it can take years. Can can you help me sort of understand the difference in those timelines and like why why Ludo can have such like a long-standing competitive advantage, even if you can get those adaptations and training fairly quickly?

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Yeah, well, we touched on like yeah, uh adaptations from the eccentric load is a cute. They they come and go quickly, right? So for example, athletes coming off Western states, recovery, they're getting slowly back into training, they get back out for their first big vert run, they're likely they might feel some DOMs, right? Because maybe it's been two weeks of very little eccentric overload on the muscles. So, but once you get that initial bout, that repeated bout effect, meaning you go back out and do that same downhill that produced the DOMs, it's not going to be nearly as bad the week after, right? So just just knowing that timeline, like a week or two weeks of introducing back that eccentric load, you've kind of got it back.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Um, and so we were talking a little bit about like, you know, the the skills side of things with downhill running. Your cardiovascular system doesn't limit you running downhill, right? For for most people, right? It's not gonna be like, oh my God, you know, this is too high of an effort. It's gonna be more about like reading the trail, um, practicing, getting a sense of pacing different lengths of descent, right? Which I think is something the US runners have a bit of difficulty as they go over to Europe because the the descents can be a little bit, you know, potentially a little bit longer for some athletes that train in different spots, and just getting a sense of how to pace well for a four or five thousand sustained downhill. Um, but yeah, I think for for athletes that actually put in that deliberate practice of like maybe it's like the technical footing piece. Um, maybe like a bomber fire road descent like comes more natural, naturally for an athlete. But once you throw a bunch of loose rocks, right, um gaining that confidence on that footing, um, that's something that needs a lot more practice than you think. Um, and so for an athlete, that might mean being very intentional within a week of training to go seek out their more technical trails close to them twice a week. And whether that's a workout or whether that's just like an endurance run, they get out, do some laps on that uh technical footing, um, and really building up that confidence. Like I can move a while on that, you know? And that's gonna that that could that could be five minutes or more that you could make up on a descent. Um and so just hearing Luto talk about like you know how he challenges that in his training, not necessarily for like the eccentric adaptations, just the nature of training specifically for the event, he's getting that natural overload mechanically. So now for him, likely, and again, I'm just assuming this, but based on his uh based on him uh talking, he he practices a lot, you know. Um, you know, why don't I test things a little bit? Why don't I kind of push this descent and see how that might affect my ability to climb after, right? So then you can start to get much better at that pacing strategy and build confidence that I'm not just gonna blow my quads, like they're gonna hold up well, you know? And I think that's a big differentiator between athletes that might not are lacking that that that confidence and that skill that is practiced. And and for each athlete, it's gonna it might take longer for one athlete uh to develop that confidence and skill. Um, but I'm very confident if if that is a weakness in an area that you know you can improve on, weekly practice. Every week, get out on the rocks, get out on the descents, and and over time that skill will will pick up.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

And then just familiar to like the like the schemo community, or uh could you see a schemo athlete coming into a sport and having, I guess it depends on the race, but like in these more technical, maybe sky races where or Mount Marathon where like the downhill is so important, like they could it would be like an easy transition over and they could find success.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Uh I mean, yeah. I mean, you know, you think about what they're doing in training all through the winter, you know, skiing down some really steep stuff, right? That's just like you gotta have confidence, you gotta have the psychological, you know, bandwidth to be like go down some of these steep cool yards and like off cliffs and things like this. Um and just with the aerobic fitness that they build up with the uphill, like that's a pretty deadly combination, if you will. And that's why you see some of the best skyrunners and mountain runners at the shorter distances typically come from ski mountaineering backgrounds. Um so yeah, I mean, a lot of the big uh hundred-mile mountain runners that that we see in the space, right? Like, you know, Francois Dain, right? Like, he's out on skis a good portion of the winter. Um and uh arguably one of the best at the 100-mile distance over technical footing. Um so yeah, not for everyone, but I think it could be one piece to develop in that skill is like, hey, what's available to me in the wintertime? Maybe I could pick up ski mountaineering and that could help sharpen up this downhill skill or build confidence in downhill.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

I'm just sort of like speculating aloud here, and I certainly don't have an answer. Maybe you do, but I'm just trying to think like what did like what did Ludo do in training that like, for example, Jimmy Elam, who finished, who had a fantastic race, amazing debut at Hard Rock, but finished like a you know, a distant second, a few hours off Ludo. Like, I know Jimmy was on the course for the six to eight weeks before, you know, race day. Um like what what what didn't he do that Ludo did? Or does Ludo just have this like incredibly massive library of just like experience on this terrain and his legs that made the difference? I don't know. But like I I hear what you're saying on sort of like it's easy to get those like adaptations, but then like the like the experimentation, the practice of like confidence and reading the train, like I'm just at a loss. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 56:27

Yeah, I mean, I I don't know Jimmy's like background with hard rock, like I know you said he's been on the course, but I think Ludo's raced it what three or four times.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

You know, so I think there's something there. He's done the uh soft rock almost like every time he's come over to to race. So he's got quite the experience on that course. But then if you look at his experience over the years of different mountain races like UTMB and things like this, you might start to see, and again, I I don't know Jimmy's background with this mountain hunter racing, but um yeah, I I I I don't know. Uh I'd have to look into that a little bit more, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

Uh from what I understand, one more because I know we're almost at the top of the hour. You've you've mentioned that sort of generally speaking, you skip the weighted hiking, you don't do a ton of lab testing, you skip most of the gadgets. Make the case for simplicity in in coaching our sport right now, especially the very top end, the elites.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Yeah, well, again, I think it's so easy to chase that novelty and like what other people are doing in the space. Like, you know, you see people doing the weighted pack hiking and things like this. And I think that ultimately when we chase those, I don't know, it was especially on like the data side, like different gadgets that like there's a lot of noise, you know. Um, how much of that is taking us away from just doing the fundamental work consistently over time? And like I mentioned, if you're doing lab testing and if you're doing it right, you've got to go into those fresh. Like you're not gonna get like in my eyes, I'm getting data and lab tests, or not lab tests, but fields, you know, files coming through every day. And that's testing right there. So in my eyes, I don't need to overdo the testing piece. Um, and then I think just like I think Coop said this in like an interview or somewhere, but it's kind of missing the plot when you think about like, you know, doing some of the weighted hiking and things like this. And obviously it depends on the context of like an athlete might live in like New York City, right? They're they decide they want to train for a mountain race, they don't have that terrain available. Yeah, you have to think outside the box and be a little bit creative with your approach. I do take that. But like if you are, you know, taking a time and effort to build into a race and you have specific train available to you, like everything is available to you out the door, like where you train, where you decide to to train. And I don't think we need to chase like, yeah, these these kind of like novel, I don't know, training approaches that again, I do think they're a big distractor from just doing the basic training the best that you can do.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

So like if an athlete wins UTMB and weighted hiking happened to be a part of their training, your argument is that that factor is sort of coincidential. It wasn't you don't attribute that to the victory. There's other things that they were doing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

You know, you gotta dive in a little bit deeper to like what you know, how many weeks of work did they put in, you know, what what kind of terrain were they on, you know, uh yeah, all those other factors. So it's so easy to point the finger at, you know, the weighted vest as the reason for the success, but I don't think that's the case. You know, I I think if you're doing specific training well, if you're mimicking the demands of the race, you would argue, well, that's a higher percentage of the work that you're putting in, likely, you know, um, and and how much of that is the driver behind the performance, you know? So um, yeah, I I it's just something that I personally as a coach do not choose to go down that path uh of of chasing. You know, I'm looking at what can I use repeatedly? If it if we're looking at data, it's like what can I use to make good decisions day after day, right? And not, you know, have something that there's it's hard to find that signal through the noise. Um, and it's something that you can't use repeatedly to make decisions. Um, you know, and where I invest, it's just like with the athlete, right? You know, being able to observe, right? And just like getting back to like basic uh fundamental principles, right, of of making good decisions is like spending time with the athlete. Like that that's productive.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

I'm just thinking about this now, but like open question here. I wonder if if an elite athlete took off the weighted vest, would the time spent in the weighted vest, would that have enabled them free of the vest to do an additional 10,000 feet of climbing? And would that additional 10,000 feet have had higher return than the vest?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

Yeah, well, going back to like doing the basics well, intensity management, you know, maybe if we reduce that that stressor of that added weight on the body by just spending a little bit more time out there doing the thing, right? Doing the thing, hiking up mountains, descending them out down mountains, probably would be pretty productive. Or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe it's actually more time to rest and recover and to adapt to this training stress that you're putting on your body. But either way, I think it's uh, you know, a lot of people are pointing the finger at like one shift in training that that's making all the difference. And I think you have to look at the the 30,000-foot view of like, what has this athlete been doing over many years, not just like in a block of training, right? Because we know performance doesn't just come from the peak week in training.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

As as sports mature and you know, we have like a bigger body of knowledge to work with, experience, et cetera, in your experience or observing like triathlon or road running, do you find that training philosophy tends to converge on like a single source of truth and a whole assortment of coaches are kind of following the same path? Or do you see what we still see in Ultra where there's like six or seven different prominent philosophies competing?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's there's kind of like the tried and true, if you will, like ways of approaching training that like just haven't gone away, right? Which is like frequency and volume over time is is quite powerful. But yeah, in the sport of ultrarrunning, you see quite a bit of jump, you know, different philosophies, different ways of approaching things. There's almost like, I don't want to say two camps, but in some ways, like, you know, this kind of lower volume, like higher intensity, like, you know, increased power output, um, improved running economy, kind of in a way taking a lot of the marathon kind of concepts and bringing them right into ultrarunning. And yeah, obviously there's gonna be some races that there might be some crossover to that of obviously of running economy as a big underpinning for success at that race. But when we start to throw in different variables like steep, rugged, you know, mountain terrain and quite a bit of meters gain a loss, like, you know, you just gotta wonder like how much of that overpace or that that that that intensity is really gonna make a big difference, right? Um uh yeah. And then there's you know, other people that kind of might fall in the camp of more of like specificity, like what are we actually training for? You know, like let's get good at that. Um and uh and kind of where I come from is kind of like, yeah, the specific work, working least specific to most specific, and ultimately trying to create that sustainable process for the athlete where they can layer consistent work week after week, month after month. And yes, rest is productive, and that's part of that build. But um, yeah, I think ultimately it's like looking around at different sports like cross-country skiing. Um, you know, there's a lot of, and again, lower impact sport different than running, but um, you know, low intensity work, right? There's a there's a foundation that's being built over many years with that type of work. And and culture is a big part of that too, with like the Norwegian, Scandinavian, uh, Nordic skiers. So uh lots of crossover, but there's obviously some differences as you get into the higher impact sport of running.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

Final word before we go. Uh, first for listeners, viewers that are interested in working with you. Are you taking on athletes? How can they find you? And then is there like a final thought or word you want to leave the audience with?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:29

Um, yeah, so I'm currently not taking on any athletes. I'm pretty full. I've been full for a couple years now, but happy, you know, please reach out so I can uh Finn, you can leave my information for the listeners. And uh we'd be happy to have a chat or connect you with a coach. That would be a good fit. Um and yeah, you can follow me. I'm not huge on social media, to be honest, but I'll link that too below. Maybe some fun things coming up. But um, and then as far as like last things to leave listeners with is like, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but just like it's kind of cliche, but like enjoying your training process, like, and you know, you hear it over and over again, but like I always catch athletes in their process, and maybe it's going back to that kind of will-powered approach, possibly, but they're just kind of forcing things a little bit too much. And at the end of the day, it's like this should be fun, right? Uh, here it's summertime in Montana, I've got athletes out in the mountains, in the high country, and like they're just out having fun. Um, and so try to create as much joy and fun in your training process. And I think you'll find that's a big part of keeping it consistent, you know, and again, that consistency as a skill, maybe that fun factor is uh part of that, part of that skill development of of staying consistent.