Fire, Carolina wrens, the gray fox and Rachel says farewell

In this episode of the Wildtalk Podcast, Rachel and Eric talk fire with Jesse Lincoln. That's followed up with a discussion about the Carolina wren before we wrap things up chatting about the gray fox. 

Episode Hosts: Rachel Lincoln and Eric Hilliard
Producer/editor: Eric Hilliard

• All things habitat
  • Prescribed fire
  • Kirtland's warbler
• All things feathers
  • Carolina wren
  • Merlin app
• All things fur
  • Gray fox
  • Submit a gray fox observation

Questions or comments about the show? Contact the DNR Wildlife Division at 517-284-9453 (WILD) or email dnr-wildlife@michigan.gov.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

You know what that sound means. It's time for the Michigan DNR's Wild Talk Podcast. Welcome to the Wild Talk Podcast, where representatives from the DNR's Wildlife Division chew the fat and shoot the scat about all things habitat, feathers, and fur. With insights, interviews, and your questions answered on the air, you'll get a better picture of what's happening in the world of wildlife here in the great state of Michigan.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to the Wild Talk Podcast. This is your host, Rachel Lincoln, back in the host state.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

It is so nice to have you back, Rachel. Our guest hosts did an amazing job while you were gone. But I mean, I've missed having you here across from me to do the show.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Yeah, I certainly missed it. I had a a pretty enjoyable time meeting my daughter and hanging out with her. That's been amazing. But the guest hosts were great.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Each one brought their own special flavor to things. It was really good, refreshing. Everybody was prepared and knowledgeable and just did an excellent job every single month.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Yeah. Yeah, I thought so too. And you could certainly tell with all of them, they chose to talk about things they really care about. And it came through. And, you know, here and Shelby talk about the shrike, this medieval little bird that is, you know, quirky and morbid. Morbid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

I saw I saw a video of the shrike. There was a thorn bush with like really long thorns, and a shrike had it decorated like the most morbid Christmas tree you will ever see. There were so many dead things hanging from it.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty awesome. But I just was so impressed with the hosts and, you know, Katie talking about invasive species. There's no one more excited than Katie and Caleb talking about moose. The Hime is just great at everything she talks about. You know, John obviously is great at all things duck. So it was just very excited. And Melinda loves dead stuff and she's very good at talking about disease. She's very excited about dead diseased things. So it was awesome to hear how well they did. And I really appreciate them filling in for me so that I could have a little bit of time just to ease back into work after coming off maternity leave. So it's much appreciated. And you were great, as always.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I mean, yeah. It's always easy when you've got a host in the in the chair that is passionate about what they're talking about because you know, then I can add my little two cents and and make things funny. Yeah. I don't know if I'd say funny. Eye roly, maybe at times, I'm sure. But yeah, no. Always, always good to have conversations with people that are passionate about uh, you know, their areas of expertise.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. And uh I have a little baby daughter now. Her name is Winona Marie, and she is a redhead.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

So we're just utterly thrilled that she's I can't imagine why you have a redheaded daughter when both you and your husband are redheads. That's so crazy.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

Oh, I so appreciate you calling me a redhead because I've always identified as a redhead, but my hair is pretty brown. So my husband, who is a true ginger bean, is like, no, you don't have orange hair. You weren't picked on as a kid.

unknown 3:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Whereas my children who have a mother who is a redhead, none of them ended up with red hair because our genes are so strong on my side of the family, they just completely dominated all the time.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

All your kids are bald.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah, they're all bald. None of them have hair.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Yeah. Well, it's it's been wonderful. I have a new profound respect for anyone who has children, young children. It's a lot. It's amazing, but it's it's intense.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah. Well, you'll blink and they'll be adults like mine are.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Yeah. How old are your kids now?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

A couple of them in their 20s and one that's gonna turn 19 like this week.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

So Well, yeah. I'm sure it will go fast. She's about to turn five months and can roll and is about to crawl. And I'm certain she said ma for the first time the other day. So my heart is always breaking. I'm always like, How are you growing? But also you're still so tiny.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah. Before you know it, you'll be in the other room and she'll be like, Ma, ma.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Yeah, it'll have a different connotation. But yeah, I uh I'm super happy to be back, back in the host seat. But I do have a little bit of an announcement. Uh it's my first episode back and also my last episode.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Oh my gosh, I had no idea. How can you drop this upon me right now, Rachel? No, I'm just kidding. You let me know, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

But yeah, it's uh it is bittersweet. This is my last episode as the Wild Talk Podcast host. Um, when this episode airs, I will have had my last day with the DNR. I am moving in a different direction.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

North, south, east, west.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Southwest, baby. I am going to the Southwest Michigan Land Conservancy to be their fundraising and development coordinator.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

And so you're still going to be involved in conservation. It's not like you're really going away completely from Michigan's out of doors.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Right. Nope. I will still be in conservation. Fortunately, this organization, affectionately known as Swimlick as the acronym.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Swimlick.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Swimlick, Southwest Michigan Land Conservancy, often shortened to Swimlick. You know, they've actually been an amazing partner to Wildlife Division. And we've talked about them on this podcast before because we have partnered with them on a lot of like land transactions. They work very closely with our state game area staff. And so I'm really not going very far, certainly not leaving conservation. But I'll be stepping into a role where I'm hoping to help fund conservation. And it is a time if you've been paying attention to conservation at all. Funding is, you know, something we talk about a lot. There's a little bit of concern over how conservation will be funded moving forward. And so I'm super excited to move into a role where I can kind of help potentially move the needle on some of that work. So I'm really excited. Also, the organization's awesome. Got a lot of dear friends there. So I'm excited to work with them. And the office is four miles from my house. So very convenient. Oh, very nice.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

It's always nice to have a short commute to work.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

It is. Yep. And to to work with people you like. I mean, Eric, you hired me. You gave me my first DNR job. You and the previous show host, Hannah Shower, sat down with me for my interview when I was 19 years old.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

A little a little a little while ago.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Yeah. I have spent, with the exception of, I think 14 months, I ventured out into the world to be a potato scientist, which was incredible. But I eventually found my way back here. And so my entire career and my entire adult life, I mean, I'm 32 now, has been spent working for the DNR in various positions. So it's uh it's been wonderful. It truly, it's it's it sounds cheesy, but it's not, it's been the joy of my life to work for the wildlife division. And I've gotten to do so many incredible things, so many projects from moose to bears to ducks to turtles and all of the wonderful people in between. It's just been incredible. So obviously one of my favorite parts has been the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

And we are going to uh miss you when you're gone.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Thank you. It's feels like a privilege to be missed. But I will I'm super happy to have shared this podcast with you, Eric, all these years, seven years we've done the podcast together. And it's been a delight.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yes, it's not going to be the same without you here, Rachel. You went from one of our rotating lists of hosts to the sole host, and now you'll be passing the baton. Do you know who you're gonna pass that baton to?

SPEAKER_03 8:12

I do know who I will be passing the baton to, and I'm very excited about it. She is a very dear friend of mine. Um we have known each other for a long time, and she is Did you two go to school together? We did, yes. So we went to Michigan State together. We got hired into the wildlife division as student assistants together. Now she is here full-time in our policy unit, but she is just an extraordinary outdoors woman, very knowledgeable on all things hunting. So she will bring that dynamic to the show, which is really exciting for the show to have more of. Kelsey Beattie is going to be your next Wild Talk podcast host. And I'm so excited to pass the torch on to my dear friend, an exceptional colleague.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

And Kelsey, of course, will be the host for the uh September episode, which is perfect just in time for all of our fall hunting seasons.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Yep. Yep. You will get to know her and love her probably not as much as I love her, but you will be impressed. And uh, I'm super excited to listen to the rest of this season and see what direction the podcast goes in.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

So seeing as this is your last episode, the August episode, what have you prepared for our listeners in your what's the word I'm looking for here?

SPEAKER_03 9:36

In my final countdown.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

That'll work. Usually I'm the one that's singing, so that's good. Yeah, it's I'm glad that you finished off uh the episode with a little bit of song.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Yeah, finally one pop culture reference. I'm able to contribute. Well, seeing as it is my last episode, I figured we would just talk about a few of my favorite things.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Gotta sing it.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Yep, there we go. That's the whole episode. It's just us going back and forth singing. Well, we will be talking with someone who is very near and dear to me, so near and dear that I, in fact, share a home and children with him. We are going to have my husband Jesse Lincoln from Michigan Natural Features inventory on the podcast to talk about fire, which is something he talks a lot about at our dinner table. But it's always interesting and it's pretty relevant to what some of us are experiencing right now. So there's a lot of cool things to talk about there. So we'll have Jesse on. We also will talk about Carolina wrens because I've got one hanging out on my patio right now, and it's just a really cool bird. And lastly, we'll talk about the gray fox, a mysterious little critter that hopefully some of you are seeing around. But it's a great little fox species we've got here. So I'm super excited to talk about that and some new community science work that you can help be a part of this time of year. I think we've got a great episode queued up for you. So stick around. But first, a word from our warblers.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Hey, Michigan drivers, the little bird told me your license plate can do more than just tag your car. The wildlife habitat plate featuring the iconic Kirtlands warbler helps protect Michigan's non-game fish and wildlife through the non-game fish and wildlife trust fund. But hurry, this plate is changing soon. Want to keep the warbler flying? You can even get one as a collector's item, no car required. Support Michigan's Wildlife and get your plate before this bird flies away. Visit Michigan.gov slash SOS.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Fire. Fire. Fire. For many of us, that word brings to mind smoke, maybe the smell of a campfire on a summer evening, or maybe it's the smoke from wildfires that have been becoming increasingly familiar part of our summer. In fact, there are 46 wildfires burning across North America right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Actually, yeah, matter of fact, we just got a notice saying that it was going to be poor breathability outside and to stay inside if you can.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

Exactly. And this is reoccurring just about every summer. We are experiencing, you know, effects from wildfire smoke, whether they're in Michigan or in an entirely different country. So they're becoming much more common in our day-to-day life. Um, and wildfire risk continues to grow. So, what if I told you that one of the best tools for preventing wildfires is more fire? Today we're talking about why Michigan intentionally puts good fire back on the landscape. And joining me is someone who spends a lot of time thinking about exactly that. My husband, Jesse. Welcome back to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Well, I'm happy to be here. And um thanks for having me. It's really, it's really nice to be part of this again.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Well, other than being my husband, why don't you share your credentials and your experience with fire?

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Sure. Well, I'm Jesse Lincoln. I'm an ecologist with Michigan Natural Features Inventory, and I've been surveying high-quality natural communities around Michigan for about the last um 16 years. And a lot of those fire-dependent natural communities. And so that's been a focus of mine in the last few years. So when you say fire dependent, you mean those areas must have fire? Well, they they evolved, they developed, they assembled in a landscape that experienced frequent fire. And so the plants that grow there, the trees, they all have adaptations that allow them to survive wildfire. And in the absence of wildfire, we get in the absence of fire, I should say, we get sort of a change in the composition and the structure, and we get a community shift. And so there's a there's a whole host of consequences because of that. But fire dependent just means that these systems uh evolved and assembled in the presence of regular fire.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Aaron Ross Powell We often think of fire as something that is bad for forests, but historically that's really not true, is it?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Aaron Ross Powell So it it is it is very complicated, but there's uh there's uh you know a range of impacts from total catastrophic fires that are devastating to fires that actually maintain the ecosystems. And historically, fire was was more frequent over a much larger area of North America than we understand. And there's been a lot of research into that. And a lot of those fires were actually intentionally set by indigenous cultures. And so this indigenous cultural burning happened at very specific times and intervals, and it was a critical part of these systems. And so you can think about these fires as low intensity, low severity, and they would maintain the forest compared to our understanding of wildfires now, where you have lightning strike during a drought, or a campfire gets away, or a cigarette gets flicked out of a car, or a power line arcs and creates a spark. And now all of a sudden you've got 80,000, a million acres of total devastation. And that forest that gets burned in that way, totally consumed. That's now a new thing where for thousands of years it was it was a certain type of forest and it was maintained by a regular application of fire. Now with these intense wildfires, it's in many cases the the primary species don't actually reproduce because climate has changed and now these things aren't competitive. It just depends where you're at. But um fire has historically been an important part of maintaining several natural communities. And and even in Michigan. So we often think of fire out west, but Michigan also has a lot of natural communities that that relied on fire for for sort of their maintenance.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

When you say maintenance and maintaining these forests, what do you mean specifically?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think probably the best example that I've been really focused on lately is is our red pine forests. So historically around the Great Lakes, red pine covered millions of acres. And a lot of us think of it just as a plantation tree. It was it was used for plantations, but it was a part of these natural pine forests all across the Great Lakes. And in the absence of fire, it isn't regenerating. And what we get instead in the understories of these red pine forests that are say 120 years, 120 years old, is we're getting maple, we're getting fir, we're getting white pine, but we're not seeing red pine regenerate. And so where fire has been returned, we're we're able to kind of take out some of those other species. They're called mesophytes, plants that are not fire tolerant, they're shade tolerant. And red pine is can't really compete with those until you bring in fire. And so a lot of our forest types aren't regenerating. They're not being perpetuated because fire isn't part of the landscape. When you come to southern Michigan, we have a lot of that with our white oak forests, where white oak simply isn't regenerating in adequate levels to replace the stand. And so what we see is when we implement a forestry treatment that we don't get white oak back. Instead, we get red maple and other less desirable species. And so fire was and is critical for perpetuating a lot of these community types.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Why is it important to keep those original community types? You know, why wouldn't you just let a white oak forest regenerate into whatever it's regenerating into naturally?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

That's a great question. Um I think that you know, ask the ask the whiskey makers. You know, they they rely on white oak for uh for aging, aging whiskey. So we rely on these products. Um white oak is a superior timber product. White oak is valuable for a huge amount of wildlife, so all these species rely on it. Game species rely on it. So deer hunters love white oak forests because deer eat a lot of acorns. Uh turkeys love it too. And so I think the way I think about it is we've had these systems for a long time. We know that fire was part of them. And there are a number of values, you know, societal values that cause us to want to have these systems around. So for a number of reasons, it's valuable.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

I have heard you use the phrase fires of choice versus fires of chance. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Um, so I heard that that was um shared with me from a mentor who who studies red pine. And you can think about these systems as they're accumulating biomass. They're they're building up biomass and they get thick understories. And in the absence of fire, you have just a density of vegetation that can function as ladder fuel. So if you get a little fire on the ground, it can kind of quickly run up through the understory and then jump up into the canopy, and then suddenly you've got a raging wildfire. However, when you've got a forest that has had the regular application of fire, you don't get as much vegetation in the understories, you have that ladder fuel consumed, and you have a greater prevalence of species that are that are tolerant to fire. And so you by choosing to put fires down in in these systems, you consume all this biomass and you limit the potential for it to run into the canopy. If you don't do that, if you don't apply fires, eventually lightning is gonna strike or some spark is going to ignite it. And that system that hasn't been conditioned for fire is that's filled with dense vegetation in the understory, is going to run up into the canopy and you're going to have a fire of chance. And it's not going to burn on your terms and it's going to burn out of control and it's going to cause a lot of devastation potentially. And I think we're seeing higher frequencies of this type of fire in the Midwest. And I think we're looking at a future where if we don't really try to put more fire down, we're going to experience a lot more fires of chance. And so I think it makes sense to try to put more fires of choice down on the ground.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

So fire is a tool. In most cases, it's your most efficient tool.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Fire is a tool. I think we're in we're learning to improve its efficiency also. It's fire is expensive, fire is dangerous. Even these prescribed fires or fire stewardship, it it's always dangerous. And so I think you've got these agencies that take it very seriously that spend a lot of time and effort to burn as safely as possible. And it's expensive, but with training and you know, greater capacity, that efficiency is improving and the costs are going down. And so

SPEAKER_01 22:00

And when you consider that against the billions of dollars in damages, I'm assuming it's probably a bargain, even as expensive as it is.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

I think we're getting to the point where that is very clear that, you know, you're losing millions of acres of potential timber right now and and out west. And homes. And homes. The LA fire, you know, a multi-billion dollar disaster for sure. I don't know enough about that to be able to tell you that prescribed fire would have gotten us out of the LA fire. I don't know enough about it. In some cases, I believe that more fire would have prevented some of these catastrophic wildfires. But I think we'll we're realizing that more fire is a critical part of like long-term planning for natural resources. And I you look at our State Forest Management Plan, that's expanding the importance of fire, things like that. And so we're headed in that direction. And I think a lot of states out west have probably been doing that for for a little bit longer. But I think Michigan is really trying to step up and you know have a broader discussion about putting more fire on the landscape.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

You're talking about we need more fire. Do you know how much more fire? Is there like a number, a way to think about how much we actually need?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Certainly not every habitat in Michigan is fire dependent. Actually, I've I've got some colleagues that developed a prescribed fire needs assessment model, and they're looking at how much fire should be put on a landscape, where it belongs on the landscape, and helping agencies like our State Forest figure out where to put fire. Between like 2007 and 2020, the state was putting down an average of like 5,000 to 6,000 acres of fire per year. That sounds like a lot. Well, it does sound like a lot, except when you look across the state, we have over four million acres of state land. And based on some models on on the need for prescribed fire, like just to address the the need for the systems that have the highest need for fire, we're looking at on average uh 75,000 acres a year just on state forest lands is what we need. That's what we need, right. And so we're looking at from 5,000 acres a year, five to six thousand acres a year, you know, between two thousand five and twenty twenty on average. And we really ideally would be able to bump it up to about seventy-five thousand acres a year. And it's possible. You know, other states put hundreds of thousands of acres uh prescribed fire down um every year, Florida, California, states like that. And so it's not so far-fetched. And and we're working towards it. I think in the last six years we've we've actually been able to increase that from kind of our historical average. But you know, there's still work to be done. And I know there's a lot of people across the state uh making that, you know, that figure um a reality or doing their best. So there's there's a lot of reasons to be hopeful.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

What do you wish more people understood about prescribed fires?

SPEAKER_00 25:18

What do I wish you know, I wish people understood that it had been part of the landscape for a long time. It was it was really central to the communities that to the people that that were here for time immemorial. It was an integral part of of their culture and by extension of the the landscape that they occupied. And so it's not all bad. Many of our species simply aren't reproducing in the absence of fire. And several of our rarest habitats are fire-dependent systems. And so by extension, many of our rarest species um continuing to de decrease and and go extinct locally at least. And so I think that I just wish more people looked at it as sort of just a central piece of the landscape.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

And I mean, on this podcast especially, we have talked about some of those species that are dependent on fire. So we've talked about jackpines and the Kirtlands warbler and how you know jack pines need fire and open for their seeds to open to be able to regenerate, and that's the tree that this really special bird needs in order to complete its life cycle. Are there any other what other species are there that are completely dependent on these fires?

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Um that is that is the best. That is the best example. But you know, you look at uh the carnival butterfly that is a federally endangered butterfly that acquires lupin, and it its habitat is what they call an oak pine barrens. And so these oak pine barrens, in the absence of fire, quickly become closed canopy forests. And so it's just one of several examples, several species of insects. To be honest, uh red pine is arguably one of our most fire-dependent species. And everyone thinks jack pine is like the poster child for fire, but jack pine isn't really adapted to survive fire the same way. It is adapted to reproduce following fire. So it seeds, just like you said, the cones open up during a fire and release seeds. But red pine is built to survive it and it's got the thickest bark, it pumps resin as a trauma response to fire, and it can actually use that to withstand future fires. It it also rains down seeds following a fire. And if there's no open mineral soil, it won't regenerate. And so, in the absence of that, our most valuable timber resource, our single most valuable species, I believe, red pine fails to regenerate and it's a real problem. And it's why we see so many, so much attention on plantation forestry. And I think, you know, including fire and and red pine management would go a long way in helping that species. Do you have a special affinity for the red pine?

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Because, like you, it has red phone.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

I yeah, as a tall pine. And you're very tall. As a tall, funny-shaped uh redhead, yeah, I definitely identify with red pine, so maybe I'm a little obsessed with it. I think uh one of the things that is really important to understand is that by applying these low severity, low intensity fires, we can ideally create a landscape that's more resilient to wildfires. And and ultimately, it seems paradoxical, right? But ultimately, putting fire down when we choose to put it down reduces these devastating fires that um are essentially inevitable. And so for a more stable and resilient future, fire is gonna be a really important part of that equation. And and these intentionally set controlled burns, you know, fire stewardship, that's uh a critical part of the equation. Hey, I just want to say uh congratulations on the podcast. You guys have been putting out a really good product, and I'm really proud of you, Rachel. I really think you've done a wonderful job on it over the last several years, and it means a lot to be asked to be on for your final episode, and uh I love what you guys have done with it. Eric, you've been just a rock star, and I think you've both done just a really important service to to the field and to natural resources and your colleagues. And I really uh I think you're gonna be missed, Rachel, but I think you're you're gonna be in really good hands. The podcast is gonna be in really good hands, and just keep lifting people up and keep doing the work you're doing. I'm uh I'm a big fan, and I'm I'm really proud of both of you. It's it's it's been awesome to to witness uh and just have a front row seat for all the good work you're doing. So thank you. Thank you. I love it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Yes, thank you. You said that like the way I wrote your script. Well done. Just kidding. Well, thanks for joining us, Jess. You you know a lot about fire. And it's coming at an important time for conservation, but also just Michigan's public. I mean, we're talking about wildfires frequently. You hear it on the news every time you turn it on. So it is an important topic to help a lot of people understand right now. Thanks for joining us on my last episode. I do appreciate it. Uh, we have had you on once before, and that's the podcast episode we won our national award with.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Really? Was it was it that one? Coincidence? I don't know. Maybe you guys should have uh made a little space on the plaque for me, but I'll be gracious.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yeah. All right, folks. Well, don't fly off now. We'll be talking all things feathers right after the break.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

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SPEAKER_03 31:49

Carolina Wrens, currently my favorite songbird because it is just so cute and it does have a very pretty song. And currently there's one hanging out on my back patio, and so I get to hear its song every morning, afternoon, and evening, because this little bugger sings all throughout the day.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

What does it sound like? I want to I want an um an impression.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Man, do you really want me to whistle into a microphone?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

No, I I want you to just just go like chirp, chirp, chirp, or like it's like a do-da.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Not even close. Yeah, we'll put a you don't want to hear me try to mimic it. It won't be as pretty as it sounds. So we'll put a a link to it in the show notes because you probably are hearing it too. It is becoming a more increasingly common bird here in Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

So Yeah, and if people download the Merlin app, then they can have their phone listen and tell them if what they're hearing is a Carolina Wren or whatever bird it happens to be.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Yeah. Man, I cannot encourage people enough to get the Merlin app. It has opened birding up to those of us like me who have a still a very difficult time knowing what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

So instead of being tone-deaf, you're more tweet-deaf.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Oh, that was a good one. Yes. Tweet deaf.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

You don't you don't have the ear to to pick out the songs. I mean, there's some birds like I obviously I'm like, oh yeah, there's a blue jay, there's a cardinal, oh, there's a robin, there's a chickadee. But some of those other birds, I'm definitely like, I don't know what I'm hearing right now. And then I'll pull out Merlin and be like, oh, cool. And then I then I learn it.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah, especially this time of year when trees are in full bloom and we've just got so many birds that hang in the top of of canopies of trees. So you almost never see them.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

But they're like, whippo, whipperwill, look up here, look up here.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

I know that one. Steve Martin. That's my one I think I've that might be the only movie reference I've gotten in our whole seven years of us recording podcasts together.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah, and I'm trying to remember if the first time I brought up that reference, if you had even seen the three amigos yet. Or if you watched it afterwards and you were like, oh my gosh, that was great.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

No, I'm pretty sure I had seen it because it's sticking in my brain as I finally got one of Eric's references.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

I guess it was just Princess Bride that you watched after the fact.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

And that's probably the only one I've watched after the fact.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

Okay. Carolina Runs are cool. Let's talk about why.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

So these things are hanging out up in the canopies of trees.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

No. Actually. They're tend to be kind of if you can, you know where our eyesight is.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

So they're they have with my head, typically.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Okay, so they're like the they hang out at eye level.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

They're kind of like hop, skip, and jump birds. Like they're just kind of floating and flittering around. They can be found a lot of times on your back porches. So they will build nests just about anywhere from, you know, a a standard place. So like a tree limb or in a bush, places where you'd expect to find a bird nest, but also in your garden, in your flower pots. Um, there's been reports of them building nests in coat pockets. You know, like sometimes people have a gardening coat and they leave it in their shed, bird finds your pocket, perfect little nest spot. Nobody's walking by there. So they're they're easy nesters. We have um lovingly referred to these birds as crafty little critters because they'll nest in any little nook they can find. And they are absolutely delightful to watch. So, one, it is a stinking cute bird. It's a small songbird, but most songbirds have a tail that points down or is kind of short, so you don't quite notice the tail. Carolina wrens have a tail that points upward. And so it's kind of a, I don't know, I think they look a little sassy. Like if you imagine the emoji that's like the girl who's got her hand oh yeah, you know, kind of like flexed out. She's like, that's what I imagine these birds are saying. They got a little sass to them because they got this little sassy tail. And that's how you can identify them. They've got the upward, turned tail. They're also like a rusty brown color, and they have a bright white eyebrow stripe. So we have a lot of wrens in Michigan. You can tell you're looking at a Carolina wren from this eyebrow stripe. And also once you learn its song, you won't mistake it for any other bird.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

And if you find a nest in your pocket off your jacket.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

Yep, you know what that little pocket bird is. Carolina wrens are insectivores, so big fan of bugs. And that's often why they can be found hopping around shrubs, brush piles, our gardens. You see them a lot this time of year around your gardens because you're attracting insects, and therefore Carolina wrens are following suit looking for a juicy little grub.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Is that where we get the term or the phrase get your grub on?

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

You're like, this is my last episode. I'm done with it, Eric.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

No more puns left in the tank. These little birds are also incredibly devoted parents. These birds tend to pair bond for life, and both parents will stick around to help to care for the young. In fact, they even will raise two to three broods in a single breeding season if conditions are favorable. So if there's a lot of juicy bugs around and they found a good little hidey hole to put their nest in, they'll just continue to have babies throughout the whole summer.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Wow, that's crazy. Imagine if humans reproduce that fast.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

You better have a minivan.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

I'm assuming they don't stick around here in the wintertime.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

They actually do.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

They do.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

They do. This is a surprise to me because I have always thought they were a migratory species. Now, these birds now stay year-round in Michigan, which is unlike a lot of other songbirds that we have here. Now, they weren't always common in Michigan, and historically, they were primarily a southeast species, so Southeast United States. So they they were in warmer parts of the year for longer amounts of the year. But over the last several decades, they've just steadily expanded north. Um, and now we can find them throughout much of the lower peninsula. So they are not really above that midpoint in the lower peninsula. They are not in the upper peninsula, just kind of this southern Michigan species, but they stick around throughout the entire winter. But sometimes the winter can be a lot for them. So we do have harsh winters still in southern Michigan, or at least we do have some harsh storms that can bring in really um cold temperatures for periods of time that can impact these small birds and their populations because they are a southeastern species of origin. So a single severe winter with prolonged snow and ice can reduce their numbers dramatically, but fortunately, they are able to reproduce quickly, as we just mentioned. They can have several broods in a summer. And so they continue to expand northward and often rebound their populations over a couple of years if we do have a harsh winter that reduces the number of birds. So if you want to help Carolina wrens, um, they are one of those birds that do really appreciate leaving your yard a little bit messy. So after a storm, if you have a lot of sticks that have fallen from your trees, creating little brush piles with those, of course, putting in native plants and shrubs brings in native insects, which then again is going to bring in native birds to eat on those insects. Tangled vines, leaving if you do have a tree that like loses a limb, probably, you know, it's not always sightly to have a dead limb hanging out in your yard. But if you are a wildlife enthusiast, it is one of the best things you can do for native birds, bats, insects. If you're lucky enough to have amphibians, you're gonna get frogs. You're gonna get some snakes if you leave those dead limbs down. It's it's it's a pretty awesome thing to do if you're looking to help your local wildlife. And and honestly, this is probably why they're hanging out in my backyard, because it looks a little crazy with our brush piles, I think we've talked about before, and you know, a lot of overgrown vegetation.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Your your rabbitats.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

My rabbitats, yes. We got a lot going on. And exciting news this year, first time ever, we found a snake. And shortly after we found the snake, we found a tree frog, which is the first frog we have found in our yard in the five years we have lived there. Very exciting. And we think it's because I mean I live in suburbia, so a whole lot of pesticides, herbicides being applied to people's yards. But in our backyard, we just try to keep it as wild as possible to hopefully act as a little refuge for all of the local wildlife. And maybe it's working because we found a frog this year.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah. That's one of the things that I've noticed. So my previous home, I we had quite a bit of wildlife. So definitely snakes, uh, lots of garter snakes over the years. A snapping turtle one time wandering through the yard, didn't live by a pond, no idea where it came from, but it's just wandering on through. Lots of toads, frogs. My place now, not so much.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Uh no frogs or toads, certainly no turtles, birds, squirrels. What about lightning bugs? Not many, but some.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Yeah. That's one that we can we notice whether they are present or absent.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, we had a lot of lightning bugs at my old place, like a lot. And that was still within the city limits, different city, but uh we were right on the outskirts though, and I think that was that had a lot to do with it.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

There is a toad across the fence from us in my neighbor's yard, and we're attempting to lure it into our yard. We've got little toad homes, little broken clay pots and things under some of our plants, just trying to create a little shady spot for this toad to move into it. It's not going to. So just consider this my little PSA to all of you bird and wildlife lovers. You can get a little lazy with your yard work. You know, leave the sticks, ditch the weed killer, leave it a little wild.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Leave the leaves in the in the fall.

SPEAKER_03 42:07

Leave the leaves. If you're feeling a little motivated, put in a few native plants from your local conservation district, because they sell them every year, and it's a great way to get your native plants and support your local conservation community.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

3,300 miles of Great Lake Shoreline, 11,000 inland lakes, 56,000 miles of rivers and streams. Fish? Too many to count. All you need to do is grab your gear, buy your fishing license, and get out there. Get your Michigan fishing license in store in the Michigan DNR Hunt Fish app or online at Michigan.gov slash DNR licenses.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

The red fox and the gray fox. And despite its name, it is much more than just the gray color version of a red fox. Gray foxes are smaller than red foxes with a salt and pepper gray coat, though they do have a little bit of red on their neck, chest, and legs, but they also have this key identifier is this black stripe that runs from their head down their body to the tip of their tail. And they are a little cat-like. You know, a lot of people see them kind of along roadways and they can be confused with uh a golf cat.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah, it kind of sounds a bit like a reverse skunk, too, with the black stripe down the back. Or I guess skunks would also have a black stripe, right? With two white on either side.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Mm-hmm. A striped skunk.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Some in Michigan have more than two stripes, some have three stripes. Some only have one stripe. We have a lot of genetic variation in skunks here.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

It is. The most surprising trait about gray foxes, though, they can climb trees. They are one of the only members of the dog family that's capable of climbing, thanks to the semi-retractable claws that they have and very flexible ankles. So they can scramble up tree trunks and climb all the way to the canopy of these trees. And they can even descend head first. Similarly to like a squirrel, you see a squirrel descend, they go head first. Cats that descend trees, they go behind first. So they like back down a tree. And these gray foxes can do either one of those. But they are an arboreal species. So they hang out in trees, they can feed from bird nests. Um they feed on eggs.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

I bet you that sounds like a really messy meal. Like I can just picture a gray fox eating a bunch of eggs and just eggs drooling out of its jowls and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

I bet there's some great ASMR potential there.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Oh yeah. Crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch, chewing on the shells.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

That's right. But they often will climb up trees as a way to escape. So coyotes, especially, are a known predator to foxes. And so foxes will escape coyotes or other threats by running up a tree. So super interesting. And part of the reason why we're able to have two fox species is because red foxes primarily spend time on the ground. They hunt on the ground, whereas gray foxes are using habitats above. They're dwelling within trees. And so we can have these two species because they don't really compete for the same space or the same resources.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yeah, I was gonna ask, do they breed together ever?

SPEAKER_03 45:51

They do not. Nope. So well, no, but I don't know the specifics on the Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

I'll just cut that question out then.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

Not enough to have a a hybrid. We have the two species. They are separate. But gray foxes are one of Michigan's least understood mammals because they are so elusive and well camouflaged, be them in trees or on the ground, we don't often see them. In fact, it's one of the species I have not seen. It is the highest right next to Badger. I still have not seen a badger.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

How about a black bear in the wild in Michigan?

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Oh, I've seen one of those.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

In Michigan.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

In Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Oh, I don't remember you t saying that one. I know you're talking about the one you saw a West.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Yes. I have, well, on my honeymoon on the Washington coastline, I basically came nose to nose with the black bear. That was my up close encounter. Um, but I've also seen them in the Spoky Mountains. But yeah, I saw one black bear in Michigan. I would not necessarily say it was in the wild. It was crossing a road while I was driving through sleeping bear dunes of all places.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Well. And there were that bear was not sleeping.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

No, he was hoffin across the road. But there are blueberry bushes on both sides, so he was he was yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Tearing it up, blueberries.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Getting after it. I hope to see more bears. I do love them.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

From a safe distance, of course.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

From a safe distance. Gray foxes are elusive. Now, trapper harvest survey data, so those who trap gray foxes in Michigan and several of our Midwestern neighbors have shown declining trends in the gray fox population. And at the same time, we have recently held a wildlife survey that was designed for and at the same time, some wildlife surveys that were designed to look for other wildlife species also detected very few gray foxes. So basically, it seemed like we were seeing less gray fox across Michigan. Now, because of that, DNR launched a pretty extensive survey effort in partnership with Northern Michigan University, the Keweenaw Bay Indian community, the Sioux tribe of Chippewa Indians, and the Little River Band of Ottawa Indians conducted a study of both red and gray foxes. And the early results from that study suggested that gray fox may be much rarer in Michigan than previously believed. And actually, the project included a large-scale camera study across 1,500 sites. And of all of those sites, there were only 25 gray fox detections. So very few number of gray fox were found through this study. So it suggested that gray fox might be becoming extremely rare or maybe even absent in area where in areas where we once thought suitable gray fox habitat occurred.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

So this might be one of those things that could down the line have some potential management implications then.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

It could. What we needed to do next were to expand survey efforts and really try to understand even more in depth where gray foxes may be. So to dig a little bit deeper into the mystery, researchers turned to the public for answers. We recently launched a new gray fox reporting tool through Eyes in the Field, which is a DNR reporting system, basically asking the public for observations of gray foxes from around the state. And these could be, you know, current observations. You saw one in your backyard this summer, or four years ago, I happened to get a picture of one when I was sitting in my tree stand. We were putting out a call for all photos and observations to just try to get a better picture of where gray foxes are in the state. And interestingly, the survey that we conducted where we found very few detections was a survey that occurred on state land. So in what we thought was traditional gray fox habitat. However, recent literature and evidence was suggesting that foxes may not be in those places, in those habitats, because they may be moving closer to people and living in urban, more urban areas or suburban areas where we weren't necessarily looking for them with this study. So we turned to the public, doorbell cameras. These pieces of technology have been really helpful in recent years with kind of understanding what more urban wildlife are doing. So foxes do prefer forests with dense cover, with lots of trees. We're also finding they live pretty comfortably near people. So on farms, in wooded neighborhoods, digging under sheds, garages, outbuildings. We're seeing them move into these places where humans are occurring. And so we had wondered if reports would come in from people's home camera footage. So things say home security systems, trail cameras that people have put into their backyards. You hear a scratching sound under your house. Maybe you put a camera in to see what kind of critter you've got under there. We thought we might find some fox reports come in that way. And let me tell you, this call to action did not disappoint. Within just a couple days of opening this reporting tool, people had submitted over 300 gray fox observations from all across Michigan. And a large amount of those observations were, in fact, near people's homes. So they were pups that had dened under homes. There was a fox taking a lunch break to enjoy a squirrel in a residential neighborhood, and just a ton of backyard spottings. So it really was incredible to see people report these observations. And I feel like it's just the perfect example of how important community science can be for conservation. You know, we had this gap, a knowledge gap of where foxes were occurring and small amounts of observations of them across the state. We ask the public to just send in their observations, and oh, all of a sudden it's overwhelmingly more observations than what we had anticipated from our own surveys.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

And we can put a link to where our listeners can participate in that research as well in the show notes.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Yes, it is an open-ended call for observations. So, you know, there's no timeline to this. If later on through this year you see a gray fox, please report it. Please try to get a photo if you can, because they do look like other species, like, you know, their red fox or they look like house cats. We do need a photo to be able to confirm that it is a gray fox. But if you also have, you know, historical observations you saw one 10 years ago in grandma's yard, feel free to tell us that as well. All of it is really helpful information for fox conservation.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

There are many camping and lodging opportunities available in Michigan State Parks. When you choose state park campgrounds, you get more than just a campsite. State parks offer a diverse range of recreational opportunities, including hands-on instructional classes, nature programs, places to fish, boat launches, family-friendly events, and much more. Reservations can be made six months in advance, so why wait? Visit MIDNRreservations.com or call 1-800-44 Parks to make a reservation.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Now is your opportunity to win a Wild Talk podcast mug. As a thank you to our listeners, we're giving away a mug or two every episode. This month's winners are Jane Cox and Yakov Gregg. They answered the question: which six plants were recently added to the restricted and prohibited invasive species list? The answer common buckthorn, glossy buckthorn, calorie pear, Japanese barberry, water hyacinth, and water lettuce. Those six were recently added in May. Just to give you a little context on this, and it's important because KD G, who was our last host, uh KDG? Katie G is pretty awesome. Katie had a pretty big hand in getting these six plants prohibited and restricted in Michigan. And it is it is quite an accomplishment. So in May, that decision was made to add those species to that list. And honestly, it's just it's gonna keep Michigan's habitats more protected and it's gonna prevent some pretty dangerous plants from becoming really risky for Michigan's wildlife and native habitats. So good on you, Katie, and everybody else who was involved in that effort. It's it's quite an accomplishment. Now, to be entered into the drawing this month, test your wildlife knowledge and answer our wildlife quiz question. This month's question What is Michigan's largest rodent?

SPEAKER_01 54:48

The rodent of unusual size.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

Yes. What is our rodent of unusual size? Email your name and answer to us at DNR-wildlife at Michigan.gov to be entered for a chance to win a mug. Be sure to include the subject line as mug me and submit your answers by August 15th. We'll announce the winners and the answer on next month's podcast, so be sure to listen in to see if you've won and for the next quiz question. Good luck, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Michigan conservation officers are working hard to protect and keep the outdoors safe for current and future generations. If you witness a natural resources violation, you can call or text the Report All Poaching Hotline 24 hours a day at 1-800-292-7800. Or fill out the complaint form available at Michigan.gov slash wrap. If you would like more information on becoming a conservation officer, click on become a CO at Michigan.gov slash conservation officers.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

And that is a wrap, folks. Not only for this episode, but my time as a host. It has been an absolute delight to share in Michigan's wildlife with you. Remember, if you have questions about wildlife or hunting, you can call 517-284-9453. Tune in for next month to meet your new host. Farewell.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

This has been the Wild Talk Podcast, your monthly podcast airing the first of each month and offering insights into the world of wildlife across the state of Michigan. You can reach the Wildlife Division at 517 284 9453 or DNRWildlife at Michigan.gov.