47. Ocean Connections: Catching Waves and Conserving Coastlines with Drew White, Coastal Plant Ecology Lab at VCU

“I've taken a boogie board out in just the tiniest little waves breaking right on the shore and had a blast. I've taken a surfboard out in waves that were almost as tall as I was and had a blast. There’s such a variety of waves that anybody at most any skill level can have a good time in Virginia.”  - Drew White, Coastal Plant Ecology Lab at VCU

Get ready to ride the waves as we explore surfing, boogie boarding, and body surfing with ocean enthusiast, Drew White, from the Coastal Plant Ecology Lab at Virginia Commonwealth University. Drew shares his insights on Virginia's best surfing locations, wave-riding safety, and why you don't need the biggest waves to have the biggest fun. But our adventure doesn't end there – we're also diving into the fascinating world of plant ecology and the importance of dunes in protecting the habitats of Virginia’s coastal ecosystem. So grab your board and score a wave. Let’s Go!

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Mentioned in this Episode:

Connect with Drew White: aewhite@vcu.edu

Coastal Plant Ecology Lab at Virginia Commonwealth University

Surfing vs Boogie Boarding

Movie: Come Hell or High Water

Surf Line App

National Weather Service

Windy.com

Tropical Tidbits

False Cape State Park

Savage Neck Dunes Natural Area Preserve

Episode Cover Photo by George Hernandez: Website I Facebook

Transcript

Jessica Bowser: 0:00

From the Blue Ridge Mountains to the Chesapeake Bay, Virginia is a mecca for outdoor travel and adventure. Virginia outdoor adventures podcast is the ultimate guide for local outdoor recreation, including hiking, camping, kayaking, and so much more. Get the information and the inspiration to plan your own adventure right here in Virginia. I'm your host, Jessica Bowser. Get ready to ride the waves as we explore surfing boogie boarding and body surfing with ocean enthusiast drew white from the coastal plant Ecology Lab at Virginia Commonwealth University. Dru shares his insights on Virginia's best surfing locations, wave riding safety and why you don't need the biggest waves to have the biggest fun. But our adventure doesn't end there. We're also diving into the fascinating world of plant ecology and the importance of dunes in protecting the habitats of Virginia's coastal ecosystems. So grab your board and score a wave. Let's go. Virginia Outdoor Adventures is sponsored by the Virginia association for parks. V A fp is a DEA advocacy organization representing parks across the Commonwealth. What's your favorite memory from a Virginia Park help ensure that everyone can experience our parks for generations to come? Join V AFP today by visiting Virginia parks.org. Or click Virginia association for parks in the show notes of your listening app. Blue Ridge Outdoors magazine takes readers deep into the mountains covering adventure, recreation, travel and culture, the largest free independent outdoor lifestyle magazine in the country. Blue Ridge outdoors is dedicated to inspiring people in the Blue Ridge and beyond to go outside and play. Every issue includes coverage of top scenic destinations. multisports spotlights interviews with inspiring adventures new gear reviews and features on regional music and culture. Check out Blue Ridge Outdoors magazine on newsstands monthly or click the link in your show notes to visit Blue Ridge outdoors.com. DREW Welcome to Virginia outdoor adventures.

Drew White: 2:22

Thank you so much for having me on. I'm a I'm a huge fan of your show. And I'm really stoked to share what I love about Virginia with all your listeners.

Jessica Bowser: 2:30

So what do you love about Virginia's outdoors?

Drew White: 2:33

What I love most about Virginia is that we have absolutely everything you could want to do here we can serve on the East Coast, you can go a couple hours west and rock climb or hike on the Appalachian Trail. Anything you could want to do outdoors. You can do within two hours of pretty much wherever you are in the state in growing up here. I was just absolutely spoiled by that I got to snowboard and surf. I got to mountain bike and hike gardening with my mom most of the years. It's so nice here. It's just a perfect, perfect state.

Jessica Bowser: 3:03

Drew when we first met you introduce yourself as an ocean enthusiast describe what you meant by that.

Drew White: 3:09

Oh man, so I just can't get enough of it. It's something that it's been pulling me back when I was a kid. When I first moved here, my parents saw I was super young. But my parents moved here from Germany. They're both in the army. We moved to Fort Monroe with my little sister and we had a little apartment right on the bay and military housing. My preschool was right on the bay right on that seawall down there and Fort Monroe. So I grew up driving along that that seawall, walking there after school and on the weekends with my parents, my parents would take us to the beach before my sister and I were both old enough to be comfortable and safe in the ocean. So we go to Fort Monroe and see dolphins I learned about waves and tides and currents there, I got held down by my first wave there, which was a little bay wave that knocked me over when I was probably like two or three years old. And I remember my dad reaching down in the water and yanking me out. And I was thinking like, I got to learn how to swim. And I have to stay in the water as much as I can for the rest of my life because it's just absolutely addicting.

Jessica Bowser: 4:14

So you grew up on the water, but what got you hooked on surfing and wave riding sports.

Drew White: 4:20

So it wasn't until I was a little bit older, I was actually terrified of the water for a lot of my childhood. I never went into freshwater lakes and rivers freaked me out for whatever reason everything's slimy, and just kind of stagnant in that kind of water. I appreciate it a lot more now. Now that I've become a little bit more mature and a little more and more comfy in the water. But I just remember seeing people windsurfing on the bay in Fort Monroe and when we finally did go to the beach thing people boogie board and surf. And aesthetically I just thought it was the coolest thing ever. I was absolutely enamored by it. I was like I have to try this out when I I was 14, I was in the Outer Banks and Corolla, and me and my friends, pooled our money. And we rented a couple surfboards, I think it was like four of us. And we had to beat up old foam boards. And we all paddled out together and just took turns trying to catch waves. And I caught one, I popped up on my knees, wrote it in as long as I could, and then fell in the water. And I was absolutely hooked. And I've been terrible at surfing ever since. But I'm so in love with it, that I just can't bring myself to move any further away from the ocean than I currently am in Richmond. I don't know, the more I the more I do it, the more I enjoy it. And the more I want to learn how to do it better, and how to show other people how to do it,

Jessica Bowser: 5:41

you really do love it because you and I went surfing together the other day. And I have to say I've never seen anybody so excited to be in the water, that smile, never once left your face all day long. It was really it was really just a pleasure to be around you.

Drew White: 5:57

That makes me so happy. I was so nervous, it was a little bit bigger than I think both of us were hoping for it to be. We didn't do as much surfing as I was dreaming. But God, there's nothing better than just jumping in the water, especially working all week, living away from the ocean, and then getting there and you're like, you know, this is only two hours from my house. It's the biggest thing on the planet. And I can just put my toes in it and swim in it. Almost whenever I want. It was really special to share that with you. And I'm super stoked that you enjoyed it like that.

Jessica Bowser: 6:28

I had a great time. I really did. And I think I'm going to be going back to try it again. Hopefully sometime soon. But I often hear people say surfing isn't that great in Virginia? What would you say to that?

Drew White: 6:40

Um, I would say they're probably right, Virginia has no waves. But you know what we got, we got enough waves to have plenty of fun. And we're no Outer Banks. We're no Hawaii. But I have never been to the ocean and had a bad time. I've taken a boogie board out in just the tiniest little waves breaking right on the shore and had a blast. I've taken a surfboard out in waves that were almost as tall as I was and had a blast. It's not as consistent as some places around here. People talk about the wave climate of Virginia, which is basically, you know, how often do you have waves that are big enough with a long enough period, and good when to ride real fun waves. If you don't have that every day in Virginia, you got to kind of scrap for it, you got to look for it and you got to be patient. But when it comes, it's right in your backyard. And it's just such a variety of waves that anybody at most any skill level can have a good time here.

Jessica Bowser: 7:40

Let's talk about the difference between surfing boogie boarding, body surfing. And then I think earlier you also mentioned windsurfing.

Drew White: 7:51

Yeah. So I know significantly less about windsurfing than the other three. But I can definitely speak to surfing boogie boarding and body surfing. And the first thing I'll say is that a lot of people are going to joke us for calling it boogie boarding people say it's it's body boarding bodyboarding is such a cool, serious word for it. But it is really a goofy sport. And I think calling it boogie boarding pays homage to how goofy and fun it is. So I'm definitely going to call it boogie boarding. Basically, with all three of these sports, you're using either a hunk of foam on a surfboard, or a boogie board or your own body to generate a little bit of float and lift in the water. And then using the energy of a wave to move you over the water and puts you in motion. So with a surfboard, obviously, you need a surfboard. And they come in a variety of shapes and sizes. You can have little five foot high performance short boards, or you can have a big 10 or 11 foot longboard, that's perfect for just holding a line and going straight for as long as you can. In its most basic, it's really just a plank of foam that's carved to be really hydrodynamic. It's got at least one fin but you can put a bunch of different types of fin combinations on there. And the fins add a little bit of stability and control so you're not slipping and sliding on the wave. But there are people who serve finless and they have weight boards that are designed to kind of hold on to the wave in weird ways. Believe it or not, actually surfing is a sport originated on finless boards, these huge hand built boards built by native Polynesians and Hawaiians way back in the day. They didn't have fins and they were able to take these boards out in pretty sizable waves and ride them for you know, a mile or more at some places. So that's a surfboard a boogie board takes the same basic premise and scratches it down into a smaller piece of foam. So you still got float, you still got lift but you really only have your torso on it and you're using kick fins like you would use scuba diving or snorkeling. And they're a little bit stiffer so you can get more drive in the water. But you're using these pic fins and this board to do the same thing you do is surfing, you're putting yourself on a wave, you're finding that that spot on the wave that's unbroken. So you can grab onto that spot, trim down the face of the wave, maybe do some tricks, maybe getting a barrel, I will say boogie boarding is a lot more accessible. I think it's just as fun as surfing in my opinion, because it's so much easier to do. But if you asked me, nothing beats body surfing, which is just using your body to catch a wave. And it really feels like you are part of the wave like the wave has eyes. And you're able to look through those eyes and see how it moves over a sandbar as it gets towards the beach. And with body surfing, you don't really need anything, sip your body, I always joke that you can go out but naked and catch a wave body surfing, it's really the most natural way to do it. But I always use a pair of kick fins. So that one, it's a little bit more comfy in the water a little bit safer in case I get stuck in the current or maybe the tide changes, larger waves come I can move around a little bit easier. Really, all you need for that is just your body and a in a half decent wave, you can do that too, in real small waves right on shore and have a good time.

Jessica Bowser: 11:16

Okay, so this, this whole idea of body surfing is really funny to me, because I had never heard of it until we were talking. And when I watched you doing it, it kind of reminded me of watching little kids in the water and how they just sort of let loose and they get so excited and they let themselves go. And they just do whatever comes to them. And this is kind of like the adult version of that. But with technique. Or at least that's how it felt to me like I've never seen anybody so excited than when you were just waiting for the next wave to come. And you were just launching yourself into it. And it was so fun to watch. So the idea that this actually has a name, and it's not just like playing in the water. I think it's hilarious.

Drew White: 11:58

Oh, yeah, I highly recommend if you get the chance, there's a movie on YouTube, it's only about 40 minutes long called hell or high water. And it's a documentary about body surfing and just like, who body serves and why they do it and where they do it and how. And I watched that video. Gosh, probably when I was in college, and it changed my life, I immediately went out and bought a pair of fins. The next time I went to the beach, I left the boards on the beach, and just swam out there and tried to catch one on my belly. Because I think aesthetically, it's a beautiful way to be in the water. It's like dancing in the water with the wave. But it's also just a whole heck of a lot of fun. There's nothing better than getting picked up by a big wave with a face that's maybe four or five feet tall. And then just sliding down that face like a slide on your belly. But nothing beats that.

Jessica Bowser: 12:51

Well, you certainly were having fun and it doesn't take much to be able to do it. So if we can find a link to that, I'll put it in the show notes. And the listeners can take a look at what it actually looks like. Oh, yeah. What are the best locations for surfing and wave riding sports in Virginia?

Drew White: 13:07

So that's an awesome question. And I think this goes back to like why I love Virginia so much is because we have a sandy coast, which means that all of our waves break over sandbars. And because sand is so malleable and it moves all the time. Those sandbars change, they change with tides, they change with storms, they change with periods of really small low energy waves and really big high energy waves. So if you got a bike or a car or a good pair of walking shoes, you can park almost anywhere like let's say you park any street in North End, and you go out to your beach access. You look one way you look the other you don't see any good waves, but maybe off to the north in the distance you see a little bit of foam and you're like that might be a wave out there. So you get on your bike he biked down and you can just go out and search for a sandbar. The place we went to first street has a history of being the best break basically in Virginia. The Jetty there protects the break from a lot of south wind that comes up and kind of put some chop in the water and makes the waves a little more disorganized and messy and the jetty collects a bunch of sand so in our area sand moves from north to south, and that Jetty sticks out from the beach pulls all that sand out of its out of its flow down the coast and then piles it there turning that sandbar into this big beautiful long sandbar that can take swell from a lot of different directions, or not a lot of different directions but it makes the swell look better than headed just hit a random sandbar on the north end. What's cool about Virginia is that from Cape Henry down to Back Bay, basically every couple 100 yards, you're going to find some kind of sandbar, some are going to look better than others. But no matter what there's always going to be something out there as long as they're swell in the water.

Jessica Bowser: 14:56

So that area where we were off a first street invert Jigna beach on the boardwalk, I feel like I always see somebody out there surfing and it almost doesn't matter what time of year it is. There's tends to be less when it's really cold. But I feel like every time I'm there, I see someone. And then the other place where I always see people surfing is Sandbridge, which is also in Virginia Beach.

Drew White: 15:17

Yes, I absolutely adore Sandbridge. That was the place my parents took us to when we were kids, even though it was like two hours away from Williamsburg with no traffic, but it was always worth it. Because you know, there aren't a lot of people there, the water is clean. And actually the waves can be a little bit bigger there than they usually get on the north end. So yeah, Sandbridge has an absolute blast. And same deal there. If you roll up in at a beach access point, and you don't see anything, just go to the next beach access and keep looking.

Jessica Bowser: 15:47

So you were explaining to me that finding the right place to surf also has a lot to do with knowing when it's safe. So what does someone need to know about reading the water and determining when and where it's safe to serve?

Drew White: 16:00

Oh, man, that's an awesome question. And before I say anything, the first thing you got to do is drop your ego and trust your gut, you know, you got to know when and when not to paddle out based on your comfort and your skill level. There's the classic saying, When in doubt, don't go out. And if you go out and it feels a little sketchy, maybe it's a little bit bigger than you thought maybe you go out and there's a current really ripping in one direction and you think I'm not going to be able to have enough energy to get through this current out to the break, and then catch a wave safely and then make it back into shore. Don't feel any shame about going back in. So first things first, trust your gut. The second thing, this is something I always do when I'm traveling, I got to go to San Diego a couple months ago, and serve or not surf, I was body surfing at La Jolla Shores. And I'd never been there in my life. But it looked good. There were tons of people out in the water. So I was looking around frantically trying to find somebody to talk to and a surfer came out of the water and I ran up to him. I was like, Hey, man, keep just tell me about this spot? Like are there any hazards in the water? Are there any dominant current directions or anything that changes when the tides change? Also, is it a good spot for a beginner? Is it a good spot for somebody who's maybe from out of town, there's a lot of localism and the culture of surfing. And if you just show up to a spot and try to paddle out without having an understanding of what happens at that break, you can get yourself in a little bit of trouble with the people who are there and just with the water. So I always tried to find a lifeguard or somebody else surfing to, you know, just pick their brain about the spot, make sure it's a kosher place to go out, make sure I'm going to be safe and comfortable there. Beside besides that, I think it's really important for anybody who goes into the ocean regularly to learn how to read the water. So the best way to do that is you know, do your homework, then when you get to the beach, sit on the beach and just watch the water for a while. If there are people swimming or surfing, I always pay attention to which way they're drifting. To get an idea of how the currents moving, I get an idea how frequently larger sets are coming through. Because when waves get organized in, you know, in the deep ocean, they form these sets of larger waves that come between smaller waves, and they come pretty regularly, depending on the swell. So you can get there, watch a big set, come in and then start a stopwatch and be like, Okay, I got five minutes between sets. So if I want to paddle out, I'm going to time that so that I don't get stuck between the beach and a big set of waves. If there's a spot in the surf zone where the waves aren't breaking, maybe they move through the area like a lump of water or they break. And then they they slow down and just turn into a mound of water again, that tells me there's deep water there. If a rip current is going to form maybe on a low tide, then it's going to form where deep water is. And that's a place that you want to keep an eye on. Another thing I do is make sure to get an idea of when the tides are happening. So there's tons of resources for that Virginia. Just online, you can Google Virginia Beach tides and they'll have the tides marked out for the whole month. So that's important to know because sandbars can get real shallow. And if you have a big way of breaking over a shallow sandbar, that's a recipe for injury, you can get hurt pretty bad getting tossed into a really shallow sandbar on a larger wave. So you might want to know what time of day that sandbar is going to be really close to the surface of the water. It takes a while to learn all this stuff. But you know dropping your ego asking questions, looking stuff up and just being mindfully observant. Over time. All of that knowledge is going to build up and develop and make you a lot more comfortable and competent surfer or just swimmer.

Jessica Bowser: 19:51

That's great advice because I wonder how many people don't think about one single thing that you just mentioned. They just grabbed their board and they run for the water

Drew White: 20:00

I mean, I was definitely I was definitely that guy when I was younger. When I was a kid, I think the first time I ever went surfing, I was with my friend who had told me he had served once on vacation in San Diego. And I was like, alright, well, you'll show me how to do it. And we both just got beat up. And it was like that for a while it took me it took me a long time to learn all this stuff. But you know, if you're excited about it, and there was a gastic, about it, you you keep that energy up, it just comes naturally.

Jessica Bowser: 20:28

So I guess it's part of the process of getting better at surfing over time.

Drew White: 20:32

Absolutely. Yeah. The people I know who serve best can look at the water and basically form a mind map of everything underwater, how the sand is moving, where the currents are going, and what kind of conditions are going to produce really good waves and how those conditions might change throughout the day. They're all they're all pros.

Jessica Bowser: 20:52

So what are the best times to go surfing? And how does someone determine the best times? I mean, you talked about some of the factors already, but are there different times of the year that are better? Or different times of the day? What advice can you give on that?

Drew White: 21:04

Yeah, so I think if you polled every surfer in Virginia, they tell you the best time to go surfing is during hurricane season. So August, September, October, that's going to produce the biggest waves with the longest period. But that's not necessarily what everybody wants, you know, you and I definitely weren't looking for the biggest waves in Virginia. So I think the best time to go surfing is whenever the waves are at your comfort level, in the best time to figure that out. Or I guess the best way to figure that out is to go online. And look at all of these wonderful forecasting tools that we have online. There's a bunch of apps that are geared towards surfers like surfline, and magic seaweed. But these are all subscription based. And they only give you a limited forecast and you got to you know, pay to play. So you got to buy the subscription in order to get a long range forecast. So there's other resources like the weather service@weather.gov windy.com is a real cert, cool service and tropical tidbits. And I can give you all the links to these so we can put them in the show notes. Basically, what you want is waves that are big enough so that you're feeling comfortable and confident or small enough so that you're feeling comfortable and confident. And then you want some good wind. And when you're surfing the best wind is offshore wind. So in Virginia, that means the wind is blowing from the land into the sea. And what that does is it kind of holds up that breaking wave. So that that long open face the the part of the wave that you're surfing, stays open and rippable for as long as as long as you can get it. If you have winds that are onshore, it's going to make the waves, choppy, it's going to make them close out, it's going to make them really disorganized. So what you really want to hope for is good offshore wind during the summer at least, I know that the morning time is really good because what is it air is moving from the land where at night the land has gotten really cool. It's lost all of its heat to the ocean, which retains its heat in the summertime. So it's moving from land to water producing that good offshore wind. So let's say you're on vacation with your family at Sandbridge. The best time to go surfing is probably gonna be right when you wake up before noon, usually, but sometimes weather can come in and change all that you might get offshore winds that lasts all day, you might get onshore winds that lasts all day. It's kind of a crapshoot, but knowing how to find those forecasts is definitely going to make you more successful.

Jessica Bowser: 23:40

All of this information you just gave us sounds like a lot. Is there anything wrong with just walking up to the beach? whenever it's convenient for you and determining if you want to go in or not?

Drew White: 23:51

Absolutely not. No way I've become I've become a meteorology nerd. So I love looking at all these forecast models and stuff and trying to make sense of them. But you know, we haven't had those forever and surfing for the longest time was just you go out when you when you can you get what you can when you can get it. So yeah, if you're on vacation, and you're just at the beach and it looks good, you know, go out.

Jessica Bowser: 24:17

I think especially if you're going to be on a boogie board or body surfing, maybe some of those elements aren't quite as important as trying to get exactly the right kind of wave.

Drew White: 24:27

Yeah, yeah, I could I could definitely see that I love surfing rule or boogie boarding or body surfing real good, long, pretty waves. But because those two ways of surfing are, you know, really adaptable and you can do it in a bunch of different types of conditions. Like I said, even when it's small and messy as long as there's enough energy in the water to move me a little bit. I'll go out and have fun.

Jessica Bowser: 24:54

Have you heard the news, Virginia State Parks just launched wandering waters paddle quest The Wandering waters of Virginia connect communities and people across landscapes and through time. From mountain streams and lakes to title rivers and bays the waters of Virginia provide an endless source of adventure and fun. So get on the water and explore at a Virginia State Park. Here's how it works. Visit a Virginia State Park and participate in a paddle based adventure in one of three ways. Join a ranger guided paddle program, rent paddle equipment from the park and go on a self guided tour or bring your own equipment and design your own paddling experience. After your visitor log into the state park adventures page to record the date of your visit and start earning prizes. There are 41 state parks with 31 offering the paddle quest program, you must visit the no before you go section on each park page before visiting and check with the park about operating hours and availability. Remember, Park rentals are subject to change due to staffing, water and weather conditions. Check your show notes for the link to wandering waters paddle quest, and I'll see you on the water. Do you have any other advice for beginners who want to try surfing for the first time.

Drew White: 26:14

Um, you know, I probably should have mentioned this at the top of the hour. But definitely make sure you can swim, float and tread water confidently because you and I found out we paddled out there's a trough in between the beach and the sandbar that unless you're seven feet tall, you can't stand up. And so if you're surfing, and you fall off your board, maybe a big wave is come and push you into that trough a little bit. You got to be comfortable treading water or just floating until you can get control your board back something else to be mindful of is just because you can swim 100 laps in a pool doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to be you know, foolproof in the ocean because the ocean is it can be dangerous and unpredictable as the ocean it's you know, the biggest thing on the planet. So being comfortable and confident in the ocean. It takes a long time to learn unless, you know maybe you grew up with it, and it just came naturally. But that's something that's really important. It's going to keep you safe, and it's going to just help you have more fun. I think besides you know, safety and an awareness of your skill level, I would recommend anybody who really wants to learn how to surf to find a lesson, get a lesson and rental board. Or if you're lucky enough like me, you have a friend or a family friend who can take you out my my two closest friends, their dad Chad brought us taught me and most of my friends how to surf. And he always had a bunch of beat up old US boards that he would let us use, he always had boogie boards, he would let us use and he would paddle out with us and just push us into waves and show us everything you know, taught us everything he knew about catching waves. And that was absolutely invaluable, I wouldn't have been able to just pick it up on my own. I know people have and those people are way more talented and athletic than I am. So if you have the opportunity to take a lesson or talk to somebody go out with somebody who really knows what they're doing, that's your best bet. Because like I think you said it earlier, it's really difficult to just pick up a board, paddle out and figure it out. There's there's a lot going on in the ocean. And there's a lot going on in the surf zone, it's hard to keep your head on right you got waves come in and currents moving and you know, maybe a piece of seaweed touches your foot and you freak out a little bit. So having a little bit of structure. Having a little bit of structure like that is very helpful.

Jessica Bowser: 28:41

You bring up a really good point because before you and I met, I never would have thought of doing an episode of the show about surfing. It just never would have crossed my mind and even trying surfing also never crossed my mind. And I just got done telling you that every time I'm in Virginia Beach, I see somebody surfing. And yet all the times that I've seen somebody surfing not once have I ever thought I'm going to try that. And I don't know exactly why that is maybe because I don't know anybody who serves. Maybe it's because I don't know anyone who owns a surfboard. I wouldn't know where to rent one. If I did rent one, I wouldn't know what to do with it once I had it in my hands, you know all of those things. So when you reached out to me, I thought to myself, You know what, this is a great opportunity to introduce people to something that they might not have thought of before, because I know I didn't think of it. So I love that I can introduce people to different things and try to provide the information and the resources they need to get started. I think you're exactly right about that. But did you have any other advice for beginners? I'm thinking specifically about a wetsuit because you and I had an interesting time trying to get

Drew White: 29:52

absolutely so yeah, the best waves if you're looking for consistently good waves, you're gonna have to look in the fall winter in Spring, that's just when the Atlantic Ocean in the northern hemisphere is most active. So it's churning up swell. There's nor'easters coming through the fall, there's hurricanes coming through. But like you said, that means you're gonna have to get in some cold water. It's not as cold as some places in the US, but I've been in the water when it's 48 degrees, and it can be kind of unpleasant. So yeah, if this is something you really want to do, then getting a wetsuit is important. Of course, I've served for the longest time, just in the summer. And then finally, I had a job and I saved up some money. And I was like, you know, I'm gonna try to do this year round, which helps a lot, it helps you get in the water more often. But it can be tricky, it there is kind of a barrier to entry because wetsuits can be expensive. I know you and I had you and I had trouble finding one that was like halfway affordable, and finally found one on sale at REI just randomly. But it can be kind of tough to find one, it can be really tough to find one that fits you. And it can be tough to take, you know, your knowledge and your skill set learned from being in the ocean in the summertime, to being in the ocean in the wintertime, because being in cold water just slows you down. And it can be really frustrating trying to catch waves, when you're wrapped up in three to four or five millimeters of neoprene, you think it stretches pretty well, but it doesn't. And it kind of puts a resistance band over your whole body that makes you a little bit more tired and a little bit more sore after every session.

Jessica Bowser: 31:34

Yeah, it was interesting for me to wear a wetsuit for the first time, I guess I was expecting that it was going to keep me like really warm. And that's not the case, you're still cold, your hands are still exposed, your feet are still exposed, your head is still exposed, and the water gets into the suit. So you sort of get those moments where it washes in and you get chilled immediately. So it doesn't make you completely what's the word I'm trying to say? Yeah, exactly, you're not completely comfortable, but you're also not going to freeze to death. Yeah,

Drew White: 32:09

it's I didn't know it until I got a wetsuit and took it out that the way you stay warm is by letting a bunch of not a bunch a little bit of cold water into the wetsuit, you heat it up with your body temperature, and then that acts as an insulating layer within the wetsuit. But when you fall in the ocean for maybe your body surfing, and you're just, you know, going underwater a lot, all of that warm water gets flushed out and replaced with cold water that you got to heat up again. So it can be a little frustrating. And it can be very uncomfortable. I think you had a wet suit that was three, two, which means that the torso is three millimeters thick, and the legs and arms are two millimeters thick. I've got one that's for three, so four millimeters and three millimeters. I find that pretty comfy until December. And then I usually don't get back in the water again until March, although I have. And if you're a diehard you really want to get out there in January and February, you can get a five, four. But you're going to have a real hard time moving your arms and legs compared to just you know, being in your bathing suit, because that's a lot of neoprene to squeeze into.

Jessica Bowser: 33:19

Yeah, it is. But I'm really glad that I have it now because I think it just extended my beach time by months in the spring and the fall because everyone we were walking up you asked me when was the last time you were in the ocean. And I actually had to stop to think about it because it's been probably three years since I've been completely in the ocean. Now I go to the ocean all the time. I'm at the beach frequently, but it's never warm enough to actually get in the water. So now that I have a wetsuit, I'm thinking wow, like I can start getting in the water in early spring and I can keep doing this all the way through October and now I have all this more time that I can be in the water whereas before that it was very limiting.

Drew White: 34:00

Oh yeah. And in the May or not may October and November when it does start to get cold in my opinion. That's the best time to go to the beach because the water is beautiful, it's crisp, it's still warm enough outside so that you don't freeze but all of the tourists are gone. Nobody's in the water you can have a whole beach to yourself. I've gone to the north end in I probably November December and didn't see another person for like a mile in either direction. I was like, Oh my gosh, I've got this. I've got this whole beach to myself. It's really special thing. I just want to hammer home how important it is to be safe in the water because I you know a lot of land sports that people do can be really dangerous. But when you fall, you're you know you hit the ground and you can breathe. If you fall off your board or get held under by a wave. You're in a environment that humans aren't usually really good at navigating. You're in the water sometimes it can be really cold. Sometimes the current strong, sometimes you get pushed into the sand. And that can be pretty miserable. But I think the big thing is not to panic. When you're in those situations, you can be afraid, you can let that fear move through you. But once you start panicking and losing your, your mindfulness and your awareness of the situation, it can get really, really dangerous. So if you're learning, try to do it in a place with lifeguards, always make sure that you go in the water with somebody, always make sure that you know where you are in case an emergency happens. So keep a note of where you parked and what your beach access is whether or not you went north or south of the beach access. So that should an emergency arise, you can tell first responders exactly where you are, and just get help quicker, I think another some other things to really be aware of, especially when you're learning is not to turn your back on the ocean, not to turn your back on the waves always keep an eye on the waves because they can come out of nowhere. Sometimes the ocean is a big place, it's really weird. And wave physics is it's pretty strange and fun. So sometimes you'll be out there, there'll be nothing going on, and then a set will just pop up in front of you and you got to scramble outside or else you're gonna get worked. So don't turn your back on the ocean. And just be aware of your surroundings and other people around you. I think some of the big mortal sins of surfing are ditching your board and having a hit somebody behind you or paddling out behind somebody and having their board hit you. And then of course, the big one is trying to catch a wave that somebody's already on. And you know, a lot of these things are just annoying kind of dumb beginner mistakes that people do. But at the core of each of those mistakes is really a safety concern. So ditching your board, you can seriously injure somebody around you. Because if you think about a surfboard, it's maybe eight feet long. And then you have a leash that's eight feet long, which means you have a radius of 16 feet around you that your board can hit. So keep your distance from other people, make sure you've got good control of your board. And don't jump on a wave in front of somebody. Because if you get in a collision with somebody who has a 10 foot surfboard, it's not going to be fun for either one of you, you're definitely going to bang up the board's but you can you can really injure yourself and others. If you're not safe, the first thing you got to do is check yourself slow down and make sure that everything you're doing is safe, and that you're aware of what's happening around you.

Jessica Bowser: 37:40

I can truly appreciate that seven since our experience just a few days ago, when we went out the the waves were they were kind of big. I don't know. I don't know if that's normal or not, I don't think it is based on what you've told me. And the fact that everybody and their sister was out there. I mean, I've never seen so many people all trying to serve at once. And you immediately become aware of what first of all how powerful the water really is. And then second, the fact that somebody seems like they're, you know, they're a safe distance away from you. And then as soon as they jump on a wave, they're coming right at you. Yeah, they're better. Yeah, you better be ready to get out of the way. And then also, if you get hit by a wave, your board gets away from you pretty quickly. Even though you have a leash tied to your ankle, the board just flies. And like I really was wanting to be sure that I wasn't responsible for knocking somebody on the head or, or any other part of their body with my board. So you, you're right, you definitely have to be aware of all of that. But then also, we had this there was this funky thing going on out there where the waves were coming towards the beach, but then at the same time they were coming sideways to I've never seen that. And at one point I did turn my back to it and not realizing it. And I got I got wiped out. So I was under for a little bit. So you do have to pay attention to those things. Yeah,

Drew White: 39:07

that was weird as I think those waves were like bouncing off the jetty and coming in sideways, there's waves breaking on each other at right angles. That doesn't usually happen on the regular beach break. That was some some weird Jedi wave physics. But it was pretty cool to see even though it was really annoying and kept moving us around.

Jessica Bowser: 39:26

So at this point, I really want to talk about the fascinating work that you're doing and coastal plant ecology. But before we jump into that, could you explain why listeners or anyone who enjoys the beach should care about coastal ecology?

Drew White: 39:39

Of course, I think at its core, I have a really romantic view of nature and how important nature is that not everybody has, for better or worse. So I think at its core, it's just an incredible natural resource not only for us, but for every living thing on the planet, especially every living thing. In the ocean, we have to take care of the ocean, or else we stand to lose so many different animals in so many different habitats. I mean, the Chesapeake Bay and Virginia Beach are home to migrating fish like tarpan. We have huge red drones, we have humpback whales, people have seen great white sharks, there's so much at stake here. And if we neglect it or mistreat it, we stand to lose all of that, which is a real shame. But I think, besides all of that, the the human element of it is really important to its Virginia's economy, built around everything that we do in and on and around the water. So there's shipbuilding, military bases, all up and down the coast there. And all of those industries rely on the ocean, all of those industries rely on a healthy ocean. Especially think about commercial fishing, and tourism in Virginia, if we don't have this resource, we stand to lose so much economically. So it's just something that a lot of us probably take for granted. You know, you get stuck in traffic on the bridge, and you're in the baking sun. And the importance of algae floating in the water underneath the bridge doesn't mean anything to you then. But I really I hope, over time that people start kind of stepping back a little bit and recognizing one how complex Virginia is ecology, especially Virginia's coastal and marine ecology is and just how important it is to our culture in our economy is as Virginians,

Jessica Bowser: 41:38

so talk about your work in the coastal plant Ecology Lab at Virginia Commonwealth University, maybe just start with explaining what coastal plant ecology is, and then a little bit detail about what you do.

Drew White: 41:51

Yeah, so coastal plant ecology, especially on sandy coast is really cool. Because believe it or not our barrier islands move, they migrate, some of them rotate a little bit over time. So if you go on Google Earth Engine, time lapse, and watch the barrier islands changed from the 1980s. Today, you'll see some of them shrink, some of them grow. inlets expand in all of this is due to these crazy complex interactions between water and sand. And believe it or not the vegetation. So all of the dunes around us all of the dunes from Back Bay, all the way up to Chincoteague are formed. Well, if they're not formed by bulldozers, and people doing beach nourishment, they're formed by sand being carried by wind, and then hitting a plant stem or a leaf, and then dropping around that plant in slowly building up over time to create dunes, which protect the marshes behind the dunes on the barrier islands. They allow the islands to grow and change. So what we do at the coastal plant Ecology Lab is trying to get a handle on how all of that is happening. Right now we have work going on on the eastern shore on mostly on hog Island, which is part of the Nature Conservancy. And then one of my co workers is doing work at Back Bay with invasive species. And then I've been fortunate enough to do a lot of work in the Outer Banks looking at differences between natural dunes and constructed dunes and how plants build these dunes over time.

Jessica Bowser: 43:31

So what role do dunes play in protecting all of the plant life that's around it and the different habitats that are around the dunes? So I

Drew White: 43:41

think it's twofold. One is that it's a really unique habitat that exists in this space between the land and the ocean. And really the that space between do you think about a barrier island, it has a beach, a dune, an interior, and then a marsh and then you have a lagoon behind it. So all of those habitats are really unique in the world. They're widespread throughout the world. Barrier islands exist on sandy coasts, all over the planet, but they're all kind of different, in what plants they have, their what animals they have there, and the conditions that those islands exist in. From an ecosystem perspective, it's really important to maintain that habitat because a lot of animals that are endangered or threatened rely on that there's a lot of migratory birds that nest in the dunes and on the barrier islands of the Eastern Shore. There's endangered sea turtles that nest at the toe of the dunes and on the beach. But from a human perspective, they're basically a natural seawall so if you have a dune in front of a million dollar beachfront property, that million dollar beachfront property is going to be a lot safer from a hurricane or a nor'easter with huge waves and storm surge. They act as that first one. I have a defense against all of that human infrastructure. And whereas, seawall if it gets destroyed, it has to be rebuilt again, dunes under you know, certain circumstances under certain conditions rebuild themselves. All of those plants just put down more roots, they put down more shoots, they start collecting more sand, and that dune over time can build itself back up.

Jessica Bowser: 45:24

So when I think about dunes, I always think about false Cape State Park, which is also in Virginia Beach. And I think about how incredibly different it looks at false Cape compared to the boardwalk area where we were in downtown Virginia Beach. And when I think about the dunes, I think about the the beach area where you know, you would probably put out your blanket and your chairs and enjoy a day on the beach. And then just beyond that, are these really high dunes. And when I say really high, they're like, What would you say like 20 feet 25 feet high? Maybe? Yeah. And then beyond that, there are live oak trees. And I remember learning about live oaks. And the way it was described to me was the live oaks won't grow any taller than the height of the dune because the dunes protect them from all of the weather that's coming off the water. And if they were to grow any higher than they would be impacted by the weather. So they grow right to the height of the dune, which I thought was really fascinating. But then when you think about where we were in virginia beach surfing the other day, you've got hotels and restaurants and the boardwalk. And there's all kinds of, you know, human made infrastructure there. There are no dunes, it's just flat space. In fact, there was a monster truck race going on the day that we were there on the beach. And it just it feels like two completely different worlds.

Drew White: 46:46

Yeah, it's it's wild, how close those two places exist. And there's a point somewhere around like 60th street, I think on the north end where it transitions from a seawall to a big, beautiful dune field. And I think that something that's lost on a lot of people who don't might not have the background in coastal ecology, or oceanography, maybe what was lost is that when waves hit a seawall, they reflect off of it. So you have energy coming into the seawall, and then that energy bounces off the seawall and is reflected back out to sea. And every time that energy reflects back out, it takes a little bit of sand away with it. So it moves sand away from the seawall and you can actually scour out a seawall like that. Whereas with a dune, unless you have a situation where sea level rise is preventing the dune from recovering naturally, you can cut a dune in half with waves. And then over the course of a couple of years, have that dune almost completely recover on its own using nothing but vegetation and sand, which is it's a pretty cool ecosystem service that that dune dunes provide. And what's even cooler about it is that unlike a seawall, you can have tons of plants for pollinators, you can have tons of habitat for Ghost crabs and other insects. You can have habitat for sea turtle nests, migratory birds and small mammals. There are even some endangered insects I think that the tiger beetle out on the Eastern Shore that's only found on between the high tide line and the dune tow or dune face, you definitely won't see a tiger beetle on the boardwalk, unfortunately. And having the all that infrastructure there prevents a lot of other animals from using the habitat.

Jessica Bowser: 48:37

Yes, actually, I've seen those tiger beetles and I was very excited when I saw them. I was at savage neck dunes Natural Area preserve and there are signs up when you get to the beach area that tell you to stay off the dunes because of the tiger beetles. And so I kind of had my eyes open for them and I saw them and I was like so excited that I got to see something that you don't normally see anywhere else. And a few years ago I also had the opportunity to help as a volunteer NestWatch I think is what we call it I'm trying to remember but we were watching a sea turtle nest that as you mentioned, yeah it was was near the toe is that the right word? The toe of the dune

Drew White: 49:17

yeah the to the foot or the toe basically where the dunes right transitions to a beach.

Jessica Bowser: 49:22

Yeah, and that's where they they lay their eggs and without those dunes what happens then if a sea turtle comes up on the beach and the dune isn't there anymore? Do they not lay eggs? Do they lay eggs but then they're not protected? Or what happens in that case?

Drew White: 49:37

So I have no idea um, I always joke. Somebody asked me a question about animals. I'm like, Hey, I'm a plant guy. So we'll house but, you know, I can say that the more infrastructure you have, the more traffic you have on a beach, the more difficult it is for these sea turtles to have a safe and undisturbed nesting site. And I've seen the same thing. I've seen a sea turtle nest in Duck North Carolina actually. And thankfully, it was on a poor part of the beach where there weren't any houses or anything. It was the field research facility, US Army Corps field research facility, which is undeveloped, except for the pier and the, you know, facility buildings there. But you can imagine, maybe a couple 100 years ago, sea turtles coming up where the Hilton in is on virginia beach right now, and that habitat would have been perfect for him. But, you know, for better or worse, here we are with a couple 100 years of development on the beach there, and that habitat is lost, and it's it's not really replaceable.

Jessica Bowser: 50:40

Are there other human impacts on coastal dunes,

Drew White: 50:43

I think the biggest one, and this is one that everybody's gonna see signs for if they're in the Outer Banks or stanbridge is stay off the dunes. I know, they make for a wonderful photo opportunity if you have like big stocks of seed flowers and, and big tufts of Goldenrod flowers on there on the dunes. But that habitat is really fragile. And something a lot of folks don't know is that most of those plants out there, grow clonally. So they'll put out a rhizome and underground stem that moves away from the parent plant. And along that stem, it'll put up new shoots. And those will become basically their own plants if you're looking at it from above the surface. And when you walk along the dunes, not only are you disturbing sand, which is a vital resource to dune growth and doing maintenance, but you're also stepping on those rhizomes and you're stepping on those roots that are right below the sand surface. And if they get damaged, it can cut off the supply of nutrients from one plant to another and really mess with that clonal system. And people might think like, oh, it's a plant, there's tons of plants on the dunes, I can step on one or two of them. Right. And to that I say that those dunes are the only thing between somebody's home and the entire Atlantic Ocean. There's maybe 100 meters of beach, and then dune that's a couple meters tall, covered in this beautiful diverse vegetation. And then there's somebody's home and we saw earlier this spring and May, the nor'easter that came through on the East Coast, we saw those homes in the Outer Banks fall into the ocean. Those homes didn't have a dune in front of them. And you know, it's difficult to say what would have happened had they had a dune in front of them. But I can tell you that everybody in that neighborhood around them who had dunes in front of their house were thanking their lucky stars that they have something between those waves in their home.

Jessica Bowser: 52:44

Did you know that you can become a member of Virginia outdoor adventures for the same price as a cup of coffee once a month you can receive a Virginia outdoor adventures membership while supporting the show members have access to the complete list of links and resources from each episode. Members also receive Virginia outdoor adventures vinyl stickers and a shout out on the show. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider supporting me. Hit pause on your podcast player, go to your show notes and click on Buy me a coffee where you can buy me a virtual coffee or sign up for a membership. My sincere gratitude for the newest members of Virginia outdoor adventures, Kevin from Yorktown, Daraa from Fredericksburg, John from Alexandria, Jim from King George Alexia from Fredericksburg. Bethany from Alexandria de from Fairfax and Spencer from Chesapeake. Thank you so much for your support. I often have conversations with people who asked me why I why I'm so committed to conservation advocacy. And my response is always when you spend a lot of time outside, you feel a connection to these places. And you can see the change happening before you especially if you visit a place over and over and over again. And if you want to make sure that those places are still around for the next generation, then the time to do something about it is now so I appreciate you drew talking about everything that you have studied and learned about coastal plant ecology and the sea level rise and how that's going to impact Virginia in the future. So it gives us a lot to think about.

Drew White: 54:23

If you get people doing these activities and if you get people engaged in the natural world, you start thinking about how all of those decisions impact the natural places that you love. And I really hope that your listeners and and everybody that you and I get to interact with come to understand how important that is that connection.

Jessica Bowser: 54:43

So Drew, how can listeners connect with you?

Drew White: 54:46

If anybody wants to reach me, they can email me at my my university email, my work email. I will put that open because I'm more than happy to engage with anybody with any kind of interest in this subject. That email is a e White whi te@vcu.edu Shoot me an email if you really need to find me. You can go to the Huguenot flatwater in Richmond and look for some skinny goofy dude on a paddleboard looking at plants or go to Virginia Beach and find somebody having too much fun boogie boarding.

Jessica Bowser: 55:20

Drew, thank you so much for being a guest on Virginia outdoor adventures and helping to introduce listeners to surfing.

Drew White: 55:26

Yeah, of course. I hope everybody enjoys it everybody stay safe. Make sure you wear reef safe sunscreen and Jessica had an absolute blast getting to hang out with you and talk to you and I super appreciate your time.

Jessica Bowser: 55:37

Awesome adventure on a you too. links and resources from this episode are in the notes section of your listening app and on the website at Virginia outdoor adventures.com. If you enjoyed the show, please consider supporting me. The easiest and most impactful thing you can do is visit buy me a coffee.com backslash Jessica Bowser, where you can buy me a virtual coffee or sign up for a membership. Members receive access to the full list of shownotes Virginia outdoor adventures vinyl stickers and a shout out on the show. You can also support me by subscribing to the show on your listening app helps spread the word by sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media. Last but not least, leave a five star rating and review on Apple podcasts. I love hearing from my listeners. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook at Virginia outdoor adventures or on the website Virginia outdoor adventures.com. Thanks for listening until next time adventure on