Anne Bailey's Journey from Career Confusion to Social Impact

In this inspiring episode of the Alternative Leader Podcast, Anne Bailey, CEO of Form the Future, shares her personal story of navigating career challenges after graduating from Harvard. 

She reveals how her own struggles with finding meaningful work led her to create a nonprofit that supports young people in discovering their potential and career paths. 

Anne discusses the importance of mentorship, challenging self-limiting beliefs, and breaking through societal expectations to create a purpose-driven career that makes a real difference.

About Anne:

Anne Bailey, CEO and Co-founder of Form the Future CIC, leads a not-for-profit careers and employment organisation. With a background in communications and experience running her own PR agency, Anne made her way into the careers and skills sector, inspired by her time managing BT’s CSR education programme. 

This role sparked the vision for Form the Future—a social enterprise dedicated to guiding young people from education into employment and helping employers connect with emerging talent. Anne’s commitment to this cause led her to win the Cambridge Social Innovation Prize in 2022, recognising the significant impact Form the Future has had on young lives in the Eastern region. 

Originally from the US, Anne has lived in the UK for over 30 years—an interesting note for listeners who might detect a hint of her American accent. We first met on the PTA, a connection that’s stayed strong ever since. 

While there isn’t a book (yet!), listeners can explore Form the Future’s website at www.formthefuture.org.uk to learn more and sign up for newsletters. You can also connect with Anne directly on LinkedIn. 

Anne is particularly passionate about the fantastic opportunities Form the Future offers for adults to volunteer and support their community. Volunteering can be as simple as sharing insights with students about your job, your career journey, and the skills you use, helping them envision potential futures for themselves. For those looking for a deeper commitment, there are roles that include training, such as mentoring young people facing challenges. The impact is profound—not only for the mentees but also for mentors, who find the experience deeply rewarding. 

Additionally, Form the Future recognises that parents and carers often feel uncertain about how to best support their children’s next steps. They offer a newsletter and host webinars tailored for parents to better understand options and help their children through key decision-making processes. 

Be sure to connect with Anne on LinkedIn to stay updated on Form the Future’s latest initiatives and opportunities. 

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the Alternative Leader Podcast. My name is Mari Williams, and I'm the Mind Architect. I'm also founder of the Alternative Leader Academy and author of It Begins with You. This podcast is dedicated to inspiring the leaders of today to lead with intention, both in their personal and their professional lives. My guests from across the world share their challenges, their knowledge and their experiences, so that we can learn from these powerful insights to help us lead with strength, determination and compassion. Welcome to the Alternative Leader Podcast. My name is Mari Williams, and I'm the Mind Architect. Today's guest is a very old friend of mine, Anne Bailey. Anne is CEO and co founder of Form the Future, a not for profit careers and employment company. Anne entered the careers and skills sector after working in communications roles and running her own PR agency. She ran BT's CSR Education Programme, which served as inspiration for Form the Future, a social enterprise that helps young people find their route through education and into employment, and provides employers with access to future talent. She has been awarded the Cambridge Social Innovation Prize in 2022 for her work establishing Form the Future and for the impact that it's had on the lives of young people in the Eastern Region. What you do is absolutely amazing. So I'm really excited to get on to talk to you about it, but first, I'm really interested in in your own life story, and sort of what led you into this passion around Hi, Mari. Thanks so much for leadership? having me today. Yeah, it's my own story really is the the the reason for doing what I'm doing now and and very much because it was hard, and it was hard in a really unexpected way. I you could say that I grew up with a lot of advantages, you know, I had a stable home life, I had supportive parents, I was a good student at school, it's one of the things that that I always found easy and I enjoyed and it was a positive time for me so, you know, all good, right. And in fact, I even got my way through to a place at Harvard where I did a degree. And, you know, had an amazing experience doing that. So you would think that I had literally entered the world of work with everything I needed to succeed, and yet I struggled. And I struggled because everyone had assumed somehow that having this great degree would just serve me and direct me and guide me and do everything that it needed to do for me. And what I discovered is, doesn't work that way. I really didn't know what was out there in terms of work. I didn't know I had had no careers guidance to speak of at all. And I just really struggled doing work, finding work that I could do, that I could do well at. So so this whole idea about, about, you know, you know what, what guides people to find fulfilling and rewarding work, it just wasn't there for me. And I actually want to put another layer on this, because, you know, doing something like going and getting a degree from Harvard, I guess it's a bit like Oxford and Cambridge in this country, you know, this, the assumption is that you've got it made, and that you're going to go on and you're going to be running things and making a lot of money, and, you know, and when you don't do those things, when you're doing jobs, and people are saying, you went to Harvard and you're doing this, honestly, that is like a knife in the gut. And I've had heard people say that to me, so that sense of you're not living up to your expectations other people's expectations, that that's really crippling in some ways. And whilst I know it can seem a bit it seems a bit sort of self indulgent to even feel that way, or that's the way I read it. At the reality is, it can be a problem to feel that you're not living up to, you know, what people thought you could achieve. I think that's really interesting, because I work with a lot of clients who've had that experience, actually, and and I often find they they feel almost you know, there's almost like an embarrassment that comes across when we have our kind of first few sessions, because it's almost like, well, you know, I know that life is a lot worse for a lot of other people, and so I feel bad, sort of saying, well, I I'm struggling. And I always say to them, you know, we're all humans in our individual space, and, and, and there's always somebody much, much worse off than us, and obviously we have to kind of keep that in mind. But I think we can't devalue our own experience. Actually, that that doesn't work anyway, um, because we're still human, and we've still got all those childhood experiences, and, like you said, that pressure and, and that kind of, you know, why aren't you doing this if you went to Harvard, or why aren't you doing this if you had a good family background, or what's you know, why you why are you depressed if you had a good family background? And I think you're reminding me of a long time ago when I was running parenting courses, and we were doing an exercise where we kind of had a bit of a kind of a bit of luggage in the middle of the room, and it was about letting go of your labels. And one of the mothers just started sobbing. And when I went over, and obviously, sort of was, was trying to console her, it was the fact that she'd been labelled clever was her issue. And she said she breezed through school, she breezed through everything, and her sister didn't. And she said she grew up with kind of her just, you know, getting her homework done and it wasn't a problem, but her sister being kind of not yelled at, but kind of obviously, you know, kind of come on, why can't you do it and set your sister does it. And and she just was in, you know, she was inconsolable. And it was interesting how, actually, some of the other parents who'd had this really disadvantaged background were coming over and comforting her and validating her. And so it really reminds me of that story, that it's just as hard with that label as it is with any other and, you know, so I was, like, the smart kid, and, you know, my whole identity was about being smart, and top of my class, you know, people, when I was I remember I was about four or five, they used to say, tell her what she's gonna where she's gonna go to college, ask her where she's gonna go and I'd say, I'm gonna go to Harvard. And, you know, five years old, and that was so everyone thought that was so funny. And yet you know, but you think about it, you think, well, what have I actually done with that? It actually became even worse when Mark Carney, who came over to be the governor of the Bank of England, who was a classmate of mine was, you know, having this massive reputation, and 10 years ago, we had something similar. I actually just found it on the internet. There's a headline in the Wall Street Journal saying Harvard class of 87 reunion, or Obama's cabinet. You know, three members of my class were in his cabinet. So, you know, it is, it is not hard to feel that you're inadequate, that you're not keeping up. Or, you know, you have friends who've gone to create, I don't know, hedge funds, and you know, they one classmate, single handedly, pays something like 2000 students tuitions or something like that. I mean, it is, it's, really unfair that competition, and it isn't a competition, and yet you feel that way sometimes when you're also not sure you're on the right career path. So the whole thing compounds itself into feeling a bit lost, a bit inadequate, and generally, yeah, that's what else can I say lost and adequate, I always like to say things in threes, and I can't think of the third. I think that's really interesting. And how do you think that, how do you think that kind of pressure affected you coming from or sort of going through, you know, your degree and then going into the workforce initially? Do you think it changed the jobs that you went for and the promotions that you did and things like that. I think it probably well. So as I say, my career was really very, you know, actually, it was actually what a career is. It is unstructured and it is quite random that I can tell you about the history of the word career and why it is, why it's called that, but it, it was, it was pretty random. I mean, it was based on random and chance encounters, you know, I'd meet someone on a plane, they might offer me a job. I would go on a course. I would like the Speaker. I'd ask for a job. You know, my husband got me a job once with someone who ran one of the supermarkets because he knew him through some other work. It was, it was really hit or miss and patchy and and really kind of random and, and I guess I had thought it would be much more linear. I thought it would be much more established, and I thought that I would be following classmates into jobs like on Wall Street or into one of the professions. And, you know, I, you know, people like my mother would always say, I can't work out what you actually do. And, you know, and that just made me feel bad. So I mean, honestly, the whole thing of trying to navigate that working world without any advice or guidance, you know, full of misunderstandings and and really feeling that I was never quite doing what I should be doing really plagued me for a long time. And, you know, and, but I, you know, I'm actually really happy now. So really, when I decided, you know, we and maybe we can talk about, when I came to start Form the Future, whose whole mission is to help young people to figure out what they're capable of, where they can go and how they can get there, you know, really the careers advice that I never got, fact that I'm now able to facilitate that for so many young people has just given me such huge sense of satisfaction and achievement and and really joy, I guess, in it. And so the whole kind of I needed to have that period of being in the wilderness and really struggling in order to discover what it was that I feel I've been put on the earth to do. Yeah, I think that's really lovely. And I think I think, you know, this is the same journey for me, you know, kind of going through my own experiences, has led me into doing what I'm doing. I absolutely want to talk about Form the Future, but I just want to double back a bit, because I was wondering, what do you think was different for you, you know, than all these people that went on to Wall Street or Obama's cabinet? like, obviously, they did have that kind of direction. Do you feel that you just kind of, did you have a different personality? Or what was it that was that missing gap for you, that you that you lost? I mean, that's, that's a really good question. I've never really asked myself that either particularly. I often think they had perhaps more parental support and drive you know. I think so much of where we choose to be in our lives comes from our parents. So my mother was a teacher, and, you know, she couldn't really offer me any insights into anything other than teaching. And my dad was an architect, and, you know, I quickly ruled that one out, thinking, you know, I'm useless at that, at, you know, draw, I didn't, couldn't draw, or anything like that. And so when you, when you don't have parents who can be role models for you, you that that can, that can become a barrier. The other thing is, I suspect at some level, I don't like to say I get imposter syndrome, I mean, or that, but I think probably there's a deep well of insecurity down there and not feeling that I'm good enough, able to do things you know, I perhaps have struggled over the years with confidence. And you know, for many years, I was actually incredibly shy. I mean, people sometimes surprised now, because I am pretty outspoken, but I definitely was plagued with shyness as a child you know, I couldn't speak up in class or do any of those things. And so it's just been, yeah, I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I probably need a lot more therapy to understand why I wasn't able to get onto Obama's cabinet. But yeah, that's and so I didn't really know of all the answers. But the reality is, I guess if I was bit more analytical about it, I would say, okay, three of our classmates were about an Obama's cabinet. One became the gover of the Bank of England you know, a few. The reality is that out of the 1600 of us, quite a few of us have just gone on to live relatively ordinary lives. You know, I have, I have classmates who are teachers and social workers and, you know, run small businesses and things, as well as all the ones who've had those kind of, you know, high profile, high status careers. It's funny, isn't it, because it's so human to, you know, to look for the outlier, and then to weigh yourself up against the outlier, rather than, kind of, you know, the majority. It's so funny that we do that. I know I do that. I kind of, I, you know, I look at everybody else's business and just saying, oh, why am I not doing that! And I heard a really interesting sort of concept called the gap and the gain from a coach called Dan Sullivan, who's in the US. And he said, you know, we're so busy sometimes looking forward at where we want to be and what the goal is, and then if we don't achieve that goal, we're like, oh, you know, I failed again. And he said, but if you turn around and he said, that's kind of where you're looking in the gap. And he said, but if you turn around and look where you came from, actually, you might be hugely far from where you thought you were going to be. Maybe you're halfway to your goal. And had you never set that goal, you wouldn't have moved at all. And I thought that was a really beautiful mindset. And he just says, turn around sometimes and see where you've come from, not where you know this idealistic view. And he actually says, if you set a goal, you'll never reach it because as you get close, you're kind of always nudging it forward, which I thought was also really interesting. That's such a great mentality. And it is that it's progress, not perfection, isn't it? And give ourselves credit for everything that we do achieve. And yeah, you know, we're setting sort of goals in business. And actually, it doesn't matter if you don't hit the goal, if you've come that close to it, you've come a long way you know. That that mentality is really important. I do think comparisons can be so damaging you know, comparing yourself to anyone else. In fact, even infact, going back to talking about childhood and families. My sister and I were talking about this at the weekend, that each child has a different relationship with their with the parents, because they just, you know, we are different people. You know, we I, you know, I said, you know, birth order can be a factor. You know, as you say, the smart kid versus the child who doesn't like to study may have a undiagnosed learning difficulty, for example, you know, all sorts of reasons why things that have come to play in those relationships. And just because you, three of you grow up in the same family doesn't mean you've had the same experiences or the same relationships with those parents. No, that's so incredibly true. I know when my mother died a few years ago, and we were sort of trying to put together the kind of the thing that they say at funerals. What's the word? But we were having this conversation, and all of us remembered her associated with a different religion, because she went through different religions all through our adulthood. But also there's, I think, eight years between me and my older sister, is six years my brother is six years younger so we experienced her and how she changed in a very, very different way. And so in the end, you know, we had to kind of try and almost blend this version of the person that we knew in into kind of this, this kind of narrative, which was it made me think it's quite fascinating. We have completely experienced her very, very differently. And I think my children, you know, I have, my oldest is 34 my youngest is 18, 100% have experienced me as a different person because of my change in that time. And I would say my, my youngest daughter, who's now 20, is very focused on business. You know, she always jokes that when I retire, she'll take over my business. And, you know, and very was, the others don't have that at all, because that's not where I was. So that's not a model, yeah, yeah, that they've grown up with. She, she has spent the last, you know, whatever, 10 15, years seeing you grow your business. And so that's the, that's the role model that you offered her, yes, at a really formative time, I guess. So, it's quite interesting, isn't it how, how influential our parents are to where we to where we end up. And I think, do you find and so to kind of move on to Form the fFture, actually, do you, do you find that the children that you work with, and I absolutely want you to go into kind of what led you into that, and how, how, how you're helping. But do you find that parents are very influential in the children that you work with? huge. I mean, parents are a huge influence on children's choices around what to do, what subjects to study at school, what to do after GCSEs, what to do after college or a levels, you know, whether to go to university what's. I mean, honestly, it's, it's, you know, you actually see it in some cultures you know, the parents actually make all of those choices for their children. So the children really have no agency at all. They also, you know, a stray comment from a parent can just really send a kid in the wrong direction or in a particular direction that they would not necessarily have chosen. I think, and you know, and yet, at the same time, parents are often really under equipped to, you know, they, you know, you know, in Cambridge, where, where we live, we, you know, we have a really international there's quite an international community here, you know, people who did their education, like me, in a different country. So even understanding, what are GCSEs, what are A levels, you know, how the whole, you know, university funding system works, all of that. And of course, it all changes over time to, you know, you know, even you know, the grades are now numbers, not letters, and it's a minefield, you know. So keeping parents up to date, keeping them aware of what's happening in the world of work, you know, because we tend to know our own jobs, but it's really hard to keep abreast of everything you know, particularly in a high growth economy like Cambridge, where there's lots of new stuff cropping up the whole time. So, yeah, parents are hugely important. I would also say, however, the teacher perspectives can be really strong too, and we, because we do a lot of work in schools, running groups of workshops with students in school settings. And I had this just from, yesterday, I saw a post from one of my teams who was running an enterprise day at one of the schools, and the teachers were really surprised to see that some of the kids who'd come up with these great business ideas were the ones who had done so well on the day, because they were not students who were traditionally always achieving academically and so in the teacher's mind, you know, the winners were the kids who were really successful in schoolwork, but in this game of, you know, enterprise, some of the kids, you know, just were able to shine and show what they were capable of and really get excited and interested in the project. So that's really interesting. That's very interesting because my daughter, who's at uni, she's studying criminology. She's dyslexic, she's autistic, and she actually said to me the other day, I'm just not suited to academia. You know, she hates writing an essay. She's very A to B, you know, why do I have to explain why I think, you know this, I this is this, you know, why do I have to explain it if that's the correct answer. And in some respects, she's kind of biding her time because she loves the subject so much, but it's very common sense for her. And I always say, you know, if you had to speak your answer rather than write it, you would, you know, all of your grades would be higher. And same with one of my older sons, you know, incredibly intelligent, but just not this academic side. And like you say, very judged from a from a kind of young age, whereas actually she's the person that you know, even 16 17, as I was running the business, would say, have you thought about doing this for your clients? And it was a great idea. And I go, Oh, that's a great idea. I'm going to do that. And so I think it's interesting, this whole skill set thing, isn't it? Because I hardly went to school as a child due to my mother. When I did, I came out with sort of D's and E's and a couple of F's even, you know, and things. And now I look back and think, but I got people even at that age, I communicated fairly well even at that age, I had an awareness of the world at that age, all things which are not, you know, they're not qualification, no, but they serve you in life, and you've been able to build a career around it. I mean, I couldn't agree more that, you know, our the what we're measuring in school is a particular type of knowledge and skills, and it's a and, you know, and you got, I guess, you got to choose something. And so they choose, oh, well, you cannot, you know, learn something and then regurgitate it on an exam in writing. And yet, that is just a really narrow skill set. And also, the other thing that really winds me up about the education system is that every year they essentially, they grade on a curve. It's a term we use in the States. I don't know if you ever use it over here, but essentially, the bottom 20% are going to fail. Yes, yes. You know by by the rule, they're, not because they're not clever enough, because they've just decided the bottom 20% are going to be below a certain threshold. And that means that young people who are getting, you know, not performing their best self, not producing, showing their everything they're capable of on written exams, are going to feel like failures before they've even made a start. And I just, I find that so upsetting, because, you know, everyone's got potential. They just need help to to discover it in themselves, to let them show it to others, and to be able to see where that potential can take them in life. it's really interesting. So like I said, I didn't do well at school. But I do remember, in kind of, one of the last years, doing a sort of psychometric testing thing. And I remember having to go to the library because, you know, noone had computers, fill in all these questions. And if you look at it, there's a kind of, you know, naught to 100 and my communication one is off the scale. And I remember at the time, one of the women saying, gosh, that's, you know, really unusual for somebody at kind of 16, and communications way up here. And if I look at it, if you look back through it, it says, teacher, social worker, you know, all of these things which, you know, that is kind of where I've ended up fitting. You know, I went and trained as a teacher. Obviously, my job was very social work like and so even from that very young age, it was, you know, fairly predictable, this person has this skill set. If you look to my grades, they were just atrocious. And I absolutely left school, you know, feeling, I mean, partly from a childhood thing of, kind of being seen to be not the brightest in the family. But also left school with, sort of, well, of course, you know, therefore I am those grades. And it's only now I look back and think I was only in education for probably approximately three years of the entire of secondary and primary school, and I came out with, you know, some C's and D's, and actually, that's amazing as a grade, somebody with no background whatsoever in any of those subjects. Yeah. o I think I've, I'm really passionate about that, that we don't, we don't kind of take who we are at that age or grades or anything, but that we kind of step into who we are and try to hone in, in what, what is the thing I just know I'm good at. Because I believe everybody has a thing they are just good at. I think so too, and, you know, and you know, because on the 100% . And so just kind of go flip side is the people who you sail through school get the grade, they kind of think that life is going to be easier than it is, and so they're not set up for success either. It really is about, you know, know yourself, know what you're what you're good at, know what your strengths are, know what your interests are, and then try to carve a path out that's going to allow you to work with those because, you know, we do spend a lot of time at work, and it's really nice to be able to do work that we feel is playing to our strengths and not fighting against back to your journey. Obviously, you kind of had this kind of, what am I going to do, and where am I going? What, what was the kind of defining moment where you thought, actually, I'm going to go and set this up? Because I remember you setting it up a long time ago, so I've kind of watched it grow Well. So I had a I you mentioned in the introduction, I think that I had been doing some work for BT, and I'd run a great programme with BT all around young people, communication skills. We'd use the BT employees as ambassadors to go into schools and and I'd really enjoyed doing that. It came to an end in 2012 after the London 2012 Olympics, when we'd done this great project on youth voice, got kids to make films and oh, it's just wonderful work. But it ended, and for the first time in a very long time, pretty much my entire working life, I had no job and no one to invoice as a private consultant, and I was literally thinking, you know, I'm not gonna bring any money in in the next few months if I don't come up with something to do and come up with something fast. So that was the spur for me to think, what problem do I want to solve, and how can I go build a business around it? And I came up with two ideas, and I found someone to pitch one, pitch those ideas to and and he, he the first one he's like, no, no, not interested. But the second one, he thought, had real potential, and that really was the precursor product project to the work that became Form the Future. My my pitch to him was, schools in the in Cambridge are too disconnected from the world of work. There is, there's this thing called the Cambridge phenomena, you know, with all this amazing sort of innovation and growth, and there's the tech companies and life sciences and all of that, and yet too many kids are going to school learning the same things they've been learning for 100 years with no visibility or contact with that outside world. And I thought I could fix that. I thought I could build a bridge between the worlds of work and the world of education, and they it did seem that this was something that the schools were interested in doing. And he and they came up with some initial funding, and they got me started on that. So really it was that, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. You know, I needed to find work, I needed to find a way of paying the bills. And I had this, had this idea. I'd seen a gap in the market, and I wanted to see if I could fix it. And of course, as I've we've already said it just aligned with my own personal struggles to find my way into meaningful work, to be able to access opportunities. And I did at that point, think if I can do this for others, I will be, I will be satisfying my own needs too. Oh, that's really lovely. And so tell us a bit more about the kind of the setup of the company, and what it is exactly that you're doing with it. So we actually set it up. I set it up with a partner, a co founder, and we set it up as a social enterprise. So a social enterprise, for people who aren't familiar is we run as a business, but all of our profits are reinvested in the cause, and it's a mission driven business. So in some cases, you know, people will be looking at things like B Corp now, which is another form. We're not, we're not a charity. So we, you know, I'm, I'm a business woman, you know, I want to, I want to run a successful business. I want to grow the business. I just happen to want the business to be about having an impact. So it's all about impact first and foremost. How are how many people are we reaching? How are we making a difference? What results are we achieving? And we've been going now for it'll be 10 years, next summer, if you can believe it, and we reach about over 30,000 young people a year. So yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we work with all wow, huge of the state funded secondary schools in Greater Cambridge, actually an increasing number of primary schools too, because we realise ideas about who can do what job start to take hold while they're still in primary school. And we're expanding beyond Greater Cambridge, across Cambridgeshire, bits of Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk, and really the goal is to be right across the whole of the East of England and potentially beyond. And we're very lucky that we have lots of employers who work with us, and they they give us access to their their people, to who give their time to, you know, come in and, you know, perhaps support with employability skills, you know, put kids through mock interviews. They can act as mentors and support young people who really need that much more targeted and intensive support. They offer work experience placements. All of the elements that we think is necessary to help someone make an informed decision about their next steps. That's. It's so interesting. I remember somebody saying to me, and I mean, in this figure was a few years ago, but it was said something like, there are, you know, 12,467 jobs in the world. And most people know, kind of a couple of 100. And I, you know. And then on top of that, I think there's a statistic. You probably know what the up to date one is, but it's something like, you know, 70% of the jobs that the future generation will do haven't even been invented yet. Yeah. So whenever I speak to young people and they're kind of going, Oh, I don't know what to do, I always just say to them, just follow what feels good, follow what interests you. And it will probably in the longer term, as I think is the right for most adults, it will probably lead you to something that you enjoy, or you might be somebody who, as you've done, kind of invents a job and says, this is where I want to be. Yeah. I think, I mean, it is a rapidly changing world, and it's really important that people don't think that, you know, they're going to choose one job and stick at it for life. You know, we, I think that some of the statistics are, you know, we're gonna have 30 different jobs over their lifespan, or something, and, and actually, we do need to stay agile and, and, you know, ready to make changes when those opportunities emerge. Because, yes, technology, artificial intelligence, all of these things may change the way we work and some of the jobs that we do, but the key thing is, just at a personal level, if every young person can connect with who they are, what they're, what's important to them, you know, I think values are a big part of it, you know, understanding what's important to you, you know, they're very different. That's very individual thing, but then also being able to navigate the the outside world, you know, to know how to find those 2000 different jobs you want to, who to where to search, who to talk to, that it's okay to ask and you know, and just basically having those career management skills that they're going to serve them, you know, for, you know, for the rest of their life. But never to face, stuck, trapped, limited, I can't do that because of who I where I come from, I can't do that because I'm a girl, I can't do that because I'm not, you know, a straight A student. There is, there are definitely opportunities out there for so many, for everyone, and it's just about, you know, yeah, yeah. It's funny. It's reminded leaving in it, me. It's reminded me of a long, long time ago my spinner, when I was setting up my own business, and I went to one of these kind of, you know, morning business networking events, and there was a woman on the door who was doing the kind of meet and greet, ticking everyone off the list. And I just sort of said to her, what business do you run? you know, because I'm chatting to anyone. And she said, oh, no, I couldn't run a business. And just without thinking, I just said, oh, what's your evidence for that? Which was, you know, I think I'd maybe just done my coach training you, know so. And she kind of just looked at me and went, and it just this kind of, I don't know how to ans she went, well, none, I guess. And I said, oh, that's interesting, isn't it and then just left it. And then I remember going back just months later to a completely different event, and there she was holding it as she'd got started her own business, and she was doing business, and she saw me and came over and went, oh my god, like that. You know, you just just literally just asking that question, and said I just opened it. And I think, you know, I'm looking at my my oldest son, he's 32 he's just finished his degree. He went travelling and did lots of other things before he went in. And, you know, he's done engineering. And he was saying to me, I don't want to sit in an office. He's very hands on. He's, you know, full of ideas and innovation. And I'm saying, okay, so where is engineering where you're kind of hands on? He's like, I don't know. And I was sort of saying, so is there not a careers place at uni or and I think it's so funny that it I agree with you it's so important to give this support when you're younger, but kind of all through life, we should also have this support. Kind of, what could I do and who could I be, yeah, I so agree. I'm afraid to say that careers advice sort of got a bad reputation where it was, you know, you were sent into a room, or you did a test, and they just told you you could do these three things, and it was as if they were putting the sorting hat on you and sort of saying, you know, you are Gryffindor or you are Hufflepuff. So my colleague is reminding us, we love this concept of, do you teach a man to fish, you know Yeah. So you can give them a fishing rode, or whatever. You could give them fish, or you can teach them how to fish. And if you teach them how to fish, you teach them how to navigate careers. You know how to explore opportunities, how to look for what they want, how to know when they're not quite satisfied and want more, believe they can do more. But of course, so much of this just comes down to, you know, at the at the very little we have to believe we deserve Yes, absolutely, absolutely. it. And I love the fact that you challenged that woman with into her, the limited, the limitations on her thinking, you know that she she, you know, by just getting her to reconsider that idea that she could never run a business. Yeah, so that's turning point. And I remember when you first set up, I came and mentored someone for you, and I just would go out and meet him at his school, and we'd, you know, have, I think, an hour together, I think it was, and we just talked about who he was and what his family was and what he wanted to do and and for me, so much of it was so easy, because it was just helping him just slightly reframe and give him a parenting model that, you know, he didn't have at home, and just be that kind of person in his corner was kind of how I saw it, to just say. And I think one of the things I did, which was quite basic, I just went off and researched a couple of roles that he was interested in. This is the grades you'd need to get, this is, and just, I think sometimes, you know, if you've been brought up in a family as I was, you know, without that suppor.,Mmy mother never came to any of my parents evenings. She was, you know, never interested. In fact, I was kind of, you know, technically married off, you know, young as a kind of, this lovely person will look after her you know. And I think actually, just having somebody who can just go, I've researched this for you, and do you realise that you could do that? And I remember also, when I was teaching, there was a class I was working in, it was the class kind of expected not to achieve much. And one of them, I said to him, you know, why why will you not work at the kind of English we would do, I taught English literature, and he said, I don't need it, because I'm going to go in and be an electrician in my dad's company. He's going to teach me everything. And, you know, I think trades are great. But I said, oh, you do know you need English to qualify as an electrician. And he kind of just what. And I went to the library and I got the research for him and found it, and found it, and I bought it back one day, and I just said to him, just have a read through these. You need a I think it was a C. You need a C in in English, or your dad can't qualify you, and immediately he'd kind of absorbed the information all of his sort of work picked up because he, you know, knew he needed that C. And I just think, I think you're right. I've heard some real horror stories. And I remember even just literally, two or three years ago, my daughter came home and said that the careers advisor at school, you know, who came in for the day to sit with all the kids, had said to one of her friends, no, you can't do that. I've looked at your grades. You're not going to be clever enough to do that. And I, you know, I went in and made a massive complaint about it, and I think, yes, exactly what you say, actually, you say actually, you know, I'm lucky that all my kids have grown up with me just going go, you know, go forth and be what you want to be. But if you don't have that model, you know. And I was again speaking to a new client recently who said, I'm the first in my family to go to uni. My family didn't want me to go to uni. They didn't support me going to uni. If you don't have that home, then you only need somebody to say, oh, I don't think you can do that your grades aren't good enough, whatever. And that's, you know, you're on a wobbly precipice anyway, so what you're doing is just so impactful, yeah, well, and you know, people who give their time as mentors are they, they have no you know, I think they do know generally, that they've made a difference. yes. And so just to come back to You know, you get that sense that you have, and you absolutely will, because being in their corner, giving them that space, you know, that time and space just to talk about what's going on, what's on their mind. You know, they don't have a lot of time to do that they you know, as you say, they may not ever have anyone who really cares. And the fact that we care, you know, I think just makes a huge difference, as well as being able to sort of, you know, myth bust some of those misunderstandings, your personal story, how do you think, obviously, growing a company from you know, basics all the way up, how, how has that changed you and how you now feel about yourself. Well, I mean, I, I'm really proud, you know, of what we've achieved as a company and my role in it, you know. And I, I'm, you know, we, this is about leadership, you know, if the one thing I am, I am a I'm a visionary leader. So I am really good at having the picture, the vision, the idea, I am less good on the operational execution, and that is harder for me. I'm not a detail person. I'm really big picture. And yet I care about the details because I because I do care about things. I'm highly conscientious, but what I've learned to do is to hire good people, you know, hire people who are better at stuff than I am, and they can get on and do the things that I can't. And it's a team, a team effort to make, build and grow a company like this. I have been so lucky that I have worked with so many brilliant people, and people want to join this mission, you know, we, we do see ourselves as being on a mission. It's a mission driven company, and that they, they they give it, they give it their, you know, they put their heart and soul into it, too and that's really lovely. Having said that, it's not always easy. In fact, it's never easy. I will reframe that. I have many sleepless nights. I particularly my big challenge is I have to make sure we've got money to pay the salaries. You know, that is the key first and foremost, make sure there's, you know, we keep the lights on, we keep the we keep the keep the funding coming through. And, you know, that's hard, you know, and it's been a hard climate these these last many years. So I have my sleepless nights where I worry but, but I'm also very optimistic. So I genuinely believe that where there's a will, there's a way, and we can, and we will, we will, we will get there. So, yeah, I think I bring the energy, the passion, the belief, and I try to, and I think that is infectious sometimes, you know, rubs off on other people, and that's my that's what I bring as a leader. that's really interesting, because I, I would say that I'm the same. So I have an enormous amount of ideas, and I'm really passionate about them, and I can be small details, but I but I kind of can't do both at the same time. I'm terrible at doing that. So I can either be over here or over here, and like you, I've sort of learned over the years just employ the right people to do that piece that you're no good at, and trust them fully to get on and do it. And I remember a few years ago, I was talking to a friend, and I said, my company should have built more than it has, and I kind of quite can't see the gap. And he said to me, do you want the honest answer? And I said, yes, I do. And he said, you're terrible at being consistent. He said, you erratically post on social media and you erratically do something. And he said, you know, your client work's absolutely perfect, but your visuals to the world are kind of terrible. And I remember just sort of going, Oh, but I took it away and I listened, because he's a very trusted friend. And I thought, you're 100% right. I am terrible at that, and I need to get somebody in who does that operation side for me, so I also have that person, and they're just worth their weight in gold when you find those people, who can do that. I am also, I'm very bad at consistency. It is actually probably one of my with anything, you know, I try to get myself on a routine, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do these exercises. I'm going to, you know, do my meditation, I'm going to do all of these things on a regular basis. And do I, no! I, you know, I do it for three days and then I move on to something else. I mean, honestly, I guess, It's hard isn't it yeah, we're different, aren't we? We're all different types. And I guess you have to sort of celebrate what you do, what we do well and as you say, And I remember speaking to outsource the rest. somebody a long time ago when I was doing sort of almost like podcasts on LinkedIn in written form, and he said to me, I'm someone's right hand. He said, I don't want to lead. I don't want to be the top person. I'm someone's right hand, and I am excellent at being the right hand. And I thought, wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone completely own their space. This is where I am. Because I do think in some respects, there's a real big push for everyone to lead these days, and not everybody wants to. And actually not everybody is good at leading and everything. And so I think it was just wonderful for him to go I lead here. I'm brilliant at this bit, but it, yeah, it was really, really powerful, actually. But I'm just thinking, if somebody is listening and they're thinking, Wow, I love what you do, what are all the different ways that somebody could get involved and help? Okay, well, I mean, you know, as a nonprofit, we, we, we always have volunteering opportunities. So, you know, if you want to come and come and put kids through mock interviews, you know, literally, a mock interview means giving them a practice interview. You ask them a few questions, they you listen to their answers, you give them some feedback. They're terrified to do it. They come in. They're absolutely terrified even though it doesn't mean anything. But when they walk out, they're like, two inches taller. They feel that they've had this amazing experience, and they feel bit more prepared for the real one. And you can come in and just talk about your job. I mean, we have events where, literally, all you have to do is turn up and say, you know, I'm a coach. My typical day would be a bit like this. I got into it because of that. This is what I did to get here. This is what I love it. This is why I'm good at it. This is the things that you know, you know, so people can actually start to relate themselves to different people in different professions. And then the, you know, there's more intense things, like mentoring, which might be a regular commitment, you know, over a period of time, very rewarding, different different skills involved, and different training provided, you know, so there's a bit more intense. There's so many things like that, but just joining, we call them our ambassadors. We have an army of ambassadors. I often say we can build the car, but our ambassadors is the fuel that the car runs on. So if we're trying to inspire young people, inform them, educate them about career opportunities, we want them to meet real people doing a range of real jobs. So those things are really vital. Of course, there's other ways to help, just by getting involved in our organisation. I think we've got a vacancy for a board member. We are we're interested in companies that want to partner with us. So you know, any company who's listening, who's thinking, I love the sound of this mission, as an organisation we want to get our people more involved in the community. Actually, we'd quite like to meet students, because they could be our future workforce. You know, we have partnership opportunities as well available, and that's a really important part of our, of our work. So, you know, I'm always interested in hearing from anyone who's interested, yes, and obviously, I would say the big one there also is funding, if anybody out there has some extra money they would like to send your way Yes, that would give me a few more hours a slave of you know that coming through on a regular basis. Oh, well, um, you know, I've watched you grow that company from sort of in the beginning, and obviously living in Cambridge, and I've watched its profile and all the people that get involved. And I can definitely kind of say to listeners, you know, looking at that, looking at the kind of reviews when people have and people talking about it, they do really feel, you know, that they've had an impact, and it does really help. And like you say, 30,000 students, that's a phenomenal amount to be supporting and guiding. That's huge. So, I mean, Mari, I'll just tell you one other thing is, a couple of years ago, I won an award for this Cambridge Social Impact Award. And, you know, for someone who just sort of thought, I don't know where I'm going, I don't feel I'm making a difference, I don't, you know, for who'd spent so many years and admittedly, you know, I'm, you know, I'm in my fifth decade, fifth or sixth decade, I'm not quite sure, but I'm in my 50s, right. So I have been working for a long time, but that award was just such a it was a really nice sort of mark of appreciation and recognition that that I needed. You know, it was post COVID. I'd have been through a terrible time work wise, it was really tough and and that came at a time when I was pretty low with, you know, it for a number of reasons, and it just really boosted me. So that was a privilege. Actually, it's, it's an award that I always recommend to other nonprofit leaders to apply for, because it not only is it just an award, it actually comes with a really nice bursary for funding your professional development, which is, which is great, but it's really lovely. Yeah, yeah, it's been a journey. It's been a journey, but it's been a good one. It's funny actually, because, you know, you talked in the beginning, you know, about sort of not really knowing what you were going to do, but now you're doing what you're going to do. Actually, you you can kind of see that thread and how it's led all the way through your life. And I think often the best businesses, the best ideas, are somebody saying, this didn't work for me and I want to try and close that gap somehow. And I think, you know, so it's my journey, and it's your journey. And so many people, when you dig under their business, even if it looks very kind of corporate, there's somebody under there who's gone, well, this didn't work for me, or I'm passionate about this I want to change this. And I think that's, you know, that's a really lovely space to be in, isn't it and as you said, in your working life, you work so much being something that you want. Yeah. So I have three questions that I always ask every single guest. So when you think about the challenges in your own life, was there a book, a film, a piece of music that's helped you through? So I was thinking about this question, and initially I was going to I was going to talk to you about the fact that, you know, when I was a child, I was a huge reader, and I loved reading books about with, like, strong female charactes that is just just so phenomenal. And I think that, really, I think that helped set something up for me, that I could do things, you know, that I there were, you know, I needed to be brave and I need to get out there. But the but the song that I go to, and it was almost like a mantra. And again, I had a when I had a difficult time, I can't remember, it's probably about 15 years ago or so. I remember playing this one on repeat, and it's called something inside so strong. I don't know if you know I know it. Okay. I do know it. I mean, it's just an incredible song. It's, it actually is an anti apartheid song, and it came out of but it's basically, the message is all about resilience, and that really resonates with me. So, you know, that's a great one for anyone to sort of keep them going during, um, during challenging times. That's really lovely. Yes, it is a beautiful song. Yes, I actually have a personal link to that song, so it's quite interesting that you brought up. I haven't heard anyone talk about that song, I think, in decades. So it's a beautiful not exactly state of the art. You know, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Okay, my second question is, you know, if somebody, if somebody is watching today and they might be struggling or not knowing what to do, what's your sort of advice to them? Well, again, another sort of mantra I have, and I use it all the time. It's kind of corny, but at one level, I think it just, it's really simple and it works. And that is, feel the fear and do it anyway. There is, you know, we all confront things that make us afraid, that we feel inadequate, not up to the job, but the worst thing that we can do is let that stop us. And so, you know, your example of the woman and the and the business idea, you know, that is exactly what I where I why, the why, I think this is so important. Feel the fear and do it anyway. And I'm not saying taking on a ridiculous risks, risks, you know, but about, you know, appropriate risk assessed opportunities, you know, public speaking, yeah, doing a podcast. You know, any of these things, they're just, you gotta go. You gotta give it a go. Yeah and I think that's yeah. I think that's really lovely. I was talking to a client a couple of weeks ago who had been put forward for speaking thing and she said, I'm not confident enough yet. And I said, you won't get confident enough if you don't start. So I said, go find your data, feel safe somehow, you know, find out what it is you need to be and then do it. And then a couple of days later, she messaged me and said, yep, I'm going to do it, I'm really excited. I think sometimes we kind of, we're waiting to feel okay to do things, and actually we have to do the thing to feel okay. But I love what you said about, you know, realism, because I always say I'm an optimistic realist, and so I will weigh up, you know, there is a reality here. And when I see things on LinkedIn, you know, jack your job in and go and start a company, and I always say to people, no, do your due diligence, do your market research, look at your finances, maybe you start it gently. And I know it's not as cool, but for me, it's safer and more real that that person's going to actually not be in their kind of fight, flight, freeze state, but then actually enjoy what they're starting to build. Yeah, yeah. And I would say, you know, when I say feel the fear, I mean, go into your stretch state, you know. And it isn't, you know, it and it is, you know, we can always just push ourselves just that little bit outside of our total comfort zone, and that's where the growth is absolutely and the final question, if you were standing in front of world leaders today, what would you say? Oh, I would say, like to say a few things. I will keep this positive, though, because that's the tone of this. We have more in common than that which divides us. You know, I think that was something that Jo Cox said in her maiden speech to Parliament, and something that was remembered after her death. But ultimately, you know, we are too quick to see differences to believe that we are on opposite sides. And actually, I, I would love us to come together more as the human race, to try to find a way to solve our shared problems, are this the existential threats that face us. And you know, we have more in common than that which divides us is a really good thing to remember. I think that's really, yeah, really, really beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much coming Pleasure Mari. Mari, it was real and sharing your story. It's It's interesting for me to kind of hear, because we haven't spoken in a while. It's interesting for me to kind of pleasure and a privilege to have caught up on and on how everything is and but to hear your journey. I didn't know you know, obviously before. So I really appreciate you sharing that, and I think also sharing, you know, the pressures of when you come through these kind of prestigious path routes are just as challenging sometimes as when you don't. So I really appreciate it. And you know, love what you do. And obviously all of the links to contact you will be in the podcast notes. And I do hope that people listen to this, and actually get involved, because it's such an amazing cause that you're doing. So thank you so much for your time and coming on this conversation. I've really enjoyed it too. Hi. I'm Mari Williams, as you know, and thank you so much for listening to the Alternative Leader Podcast. I search for guests to bring you lessons and learnings that can help move you forward in your life. Help you achieve the success that you want to in whatever way that shows up for you. To help you lead powerfully, whether that's in your own life, as your parenting, your personal or your professional, and make you the best that you can be. If you've enjoyed the show, please rate and review it and please share it with as many people as you think also want to move forward and gain success in their lives. If you want to find out more about me, go over to my website, which is www . mari - williams.com, that's www . mari which is M, A, R, I - williams.com, and you'll find links to all of my social media profiles there. There's also a Facebook community that you can join, and again, all the links will be on the website too. I hope you have an absolutely fantastic day, and thank you so much for listening.