Managing Bipolar Mood Disorder Through Poetry with Delile Ndumo

This Mental Health Awareness Month, we welcome long-time supporter Delile Ndumo to share his powerful story of life following his 2012 diagnosis with Bipolar Mood Disorder.

Delile's struggles were awakened by the suppressed grief following his father's passing in 2009. He details the challenging journey of finding the right combination of medication and ultimately experiencing a profound "rebirth".

The true catalyst for his healing, documented in his book Raw Feelings, was poetic expression. Delile shares how writing provided a constructive channel to pour his intense energy into, rather than resorting to destructive measures like drugs or alcohol.

We hear the moving lines from his pivotal poem, "It was Friday the 18th," which recounts the day he released years of pain and realized: "But a man is allowed to cry. A man is allowed to cry".

Delile’s journey serves as a powerful reminder that writing is a "powerful thing". He encourages listeners to seek holistic healing and see that even after the darkest struggles, you can emerge "victorious" because "there is light at the end of the tunnel".

Key Focus Points for Listeners:

• The connection between suppressed grief and mental health triggers.
• How writing can be used as a constructive, healing tool.
• The importance of challenging healthcare norms and seeking holistic care.
• Delile’s message of hope: "Look at me. I managed to turn myself around and also turn my life around".

Hope you are enjoying the conversation so far. 

Remember to take note of things that stand out to you while listening and take a moment to reflect in your own time or discuss this with some friends over some drinks, a meal or relaxing activity of your choice. 
Thank you for tuning into Manned Up Conversations. Please subscribe to help grow the platform, you can also find us on YouTube if you prefer video and don't forget to share your comments, insights or questions.

Transcript

Hi and welcome to Mandup Conversations where we connect with evolving men to discuss issues around masculinity and manhood and also provide tools to help us be better for our society. It was Friday the 18th. The severe pain I never felt before bubbled forth that day. What a shame my shed had to bear before the crowd at a big event. My hand could reach the face but could not hold the tears. It was a drama. It was a drama that touched my soul to the latter. My life passed before my eyes. I saw all the dreams, aspirations, goals, expectations, none of them fulfilled. My entire efforts to begin life shut before my eyes. That hurts. I don't care what you think. It hurts. Especially without a valid reason from youth up until that day. But a man is allowed to cry. A man is allowed to cry.

So there we go. Peace and blessings. Peace and blessings. And welcome to Mandup Conversations. I am Kohabani. And I know I've been on a bit of a hiatus over the past couple of months. It's been a It's been a very good year. It's been a very challenging but also a very reflective year for me. So I'll I'll share some of those in some of the reflection episodes that we usually share. Um but today I've also got a a very special conversation that I've been meaning to have as we are in mental health month right mental health mental health awareness month and Delilendum has been following manned dub conversations I would say 3 years now I think if I'm being honest so since we started our work with the South African depression and anxiety group that's when we really got into the mental health conversations and we're going to be talking to Dilia about his wonderful book called raw feelings But before I get into the explanations and all of that, you can tell I'm excited to be back here, man. Denita, welcome, bro.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for for having me.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I I I am doing this in honor of not just you being a supporter of Mandup Conversations, but I read this book and I'm a I'm a huge fan of poetry, of self-expression, of writing, of just putting pen to pad, you know.

Um, as I was reading this man, I thought of of my days when I used to be on stage rapping, you know, when I used to go to poetry sessions at school because poetry was a way for me to escape some of the things I was experiencing and also just trying to get to understand layers within myself, you know.

Wow.

Yeah.

So, so I, you know, I know I know I know we're talking about yours today, so I might drop a little something for you. We'll see. We'll see. I might I might hit you with some bars, you know.

All right. Okay. I never knew that. Okay.

But how you feeling, man?

No, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling blessed. Uh, you know, uh, having having life

as it is and also just trying to navigate some of the other challenges and seeing where you've been, and then coming to where you are.

True.

It's always something that you have to look up to and think, you know what, I've been there, I've done that, and I'm happy where I am right now. So, it's something that I'm also like looking forward to.

Ah, I love that. It's it's a journey, man. We're talking about a journey, right? And there's a lot of your journey um in your book and I know that you know just to make the link why delay and why in mental health awareness month is because you're talking to a man who was diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder.

Yes. Yes.

I've spoken a little bit about my issues when it comes to moods. You know, I was a very moody guy when I was growing up. Man, I was never diagnosed with anything. But my friends, if they listen to this, they'll probably tell you that ah that guy, we'd go to his house and he wouldn't even talk to us. But we we'd hang out you know, but I wouldn't talk and I wouldn't understand why I'm quiet. I don't have anything to say. So, I mean, that's my experience of it. But please, man, how did you end up being diagnosed with this?

So, my story, I would say it started at school when I was doing my metric, right? Um, that's also part of the writings when they started in 2008. So, I was doing my metric 2008.

It was it was a peak of my year like things were going great.

I was doing well at school. I was getting A's in V's uh we used to do this thing called cross nighting I think people are are used to it now you know yeah where you just escape the home environment and then you go to school at night you study prepare make sure that things go well and that's when I started writing that's when the inspiration kind of like came through

but it wasn't a full-fledged force when it it kind of like happened after my diagnosis

so what happened is that after I finished school and I started my first year at VA I was doing civil engineering

okay

my father passed right so all along I didn't know that I have the gene

of bipolar. Right. So, apparently there are about two ways that you can diagnose bipolar. It's either it's through heredity

or some things that happen through your life causes that can narrow you down to end up having the the disorder or the mood a disorder itself. Right.

So, my father passed on around June July somewhere there

while I was in 2009.

N 2009. Yeah.

So, and then uh so I had like some animosity between me and him. I didn't really like him at that point. point.

He was an abusive father.

But I loved him also at the same time. You know those

he's your dad, you know,

also at the same time. You can't just like hate him all all the way.

So he passed on and then I struggled to grieve because I hated him, right? So I packed all those feelings and then I started getting blank. Um when I have to write exams at school, I didn't understand what was going on. So I went to the center there at at at heads to ask for a psychologist to kind of like figure out what's going on, you know, because now this is affecting my my studies, affecting my grades and all of that.

So you you you hit a blank as in you you studied and you knew you were ready, but then when it came to exam time, nothing was there.

Nothing is there.

Wow. Okay.

So I was like, okay, so this is really affecting me. So let me try and figure out what's going on. And then it moved on whereby from from the because there I think it's students who are like kind of like busy trying to help people out

with all the exam stress and how to cope and all of that

and they were like well we can't assist you with this case we don't know what to do right

so and then I moved on and then I started having headaches

and then they were pounding headaches I didn't also understand what's going on I went to doctors about eight different doctors

and then they were like you're fine bro there's nothing I even did a CT scan

as in and you went to a GP

I went to a GP I even went to um other other specialists but they were psychiatrist at that time.

So they were like, "No, you're fine. You're you're a healthy man.

You don't understand these headaches where they coming from,

okay?

And all of that, right?

And then up to a point whereby my my mother's also diagnosed with bipolar, my mother's like, "How about you come see my doctor, right?

And let's see whether they can figure something out here."

And then they went through like a lot of uh symptoms and checklist asking me a lot of questions. I like

you know what? Because that doctor didn't know that my mother is diagnosed with bipolar, right?

Uh like you're presenting a lot of symptoms that a bipolar mood person basically has.

But I can't really diagnose you directly to say you have because the thing is it takes about one into 100 into 10,000 people to be diagnosed correctly with bipolar. That's how narrow it is.

Wow.

So it's like I don't want to put my my my my reputation and everything here and say you're bipolar without having some sort of link, you know, is there anyone in at home who has a mental health illness? I was like, no, my mother's bipolar. I was like, you see, now I can confidently say you're also bipolar because you're presenting all of these symptoms. So, that's how I was actually diagnosed.

And that was in 2012.

In 2012,

yeah. So, what happened is that yeah, 3 years after my my father passed,

they like so your father's passing, I woken up that gene.

So, it was dominant all along and then that that event

sure

kind of like expanded that whole thing and then it made it to present itself as as a as a as a mood disorder by then

cuz you also speak about um grief you couldn't grieve him right so I think in in blocking out that grief that also had an impact

exactly exactly and then from then on

it was it was a roller coaster ride because now it was

uh doctors trying to figure out a combination of medication that would work for me

also trying to figure out how it will be best for me to even study.

Sure.

And also at the same time try to have a normal life, right?

And it wasn't easy. They started with like lithium. They say usually lithium is the best for people living with bipolar. But it wasn't good for me. It wasn't it wasn't helping me as much. So they had to kind of like find another combination. I ended up having to take medication. They call it epitech, but it's lamotrogen

and epilim. It also helps people with epilepsy, but it can also be used for bipolar. and then other combinations that ended up helping me to like find a balance

in life. But by that time it was probably 2 years later

or 2014 and that's when I started to grieve.

So so so your father passes away in 2009.

Yeah.

2012 you get

diagnosed.

Diagnosed and 2 years later after that now you experimenting with some kind of medication. Exactly. But through that process you're able then to now experience a grief.

Exactly. And then that's when my my poetry started becoming intense because I was now putting my emotions on paper. I was there there's one one of one of the points there. I I was writing about sort of like an experience on a short life course.

It's called it was Friday the 18th

and we're going to get to that. I think I think I think I want to close with that or maybe should we maybe drop a few lines of it?

I think we can close with it because it's quite powerful and I'd like to give context into it. Okay, cool.

Yeah. So, it kind of like gives that life experience and then how I was feeling during that time

and how I actually ended up crying

for the first time after my father passed like in

four or five years.

Wow, man.

Yeah. And then it was it was heavy.

Then then did that conversation between you and your mother changed now? Now that you know or after the doctors went and and saw that no man, we're seeing um bipolar here.

Yeah. So now does that change the conversation with your mother?

No, my mother was diagnosed uh years back.

Yeah. Yeah.

So but it did change the conversation. I won't lie. So it kind of like help to see things in a different perspective.

We we now manage to help each other

in managing our moods. So I would know exactly how to deal with my mother in certain episodes.

Sure.

Because hers was a bit complicated. It was a complex case

whereby uh she could be happy now then next minute should be sad or should be angry.

Oh man.

So that happens, right? Whereas with me, mine is seasonal.

So about 5 months in a year, I'm in a depressive mode

and then the other eight months I'm in the manic episode.

So that's when actually my my writing

I'd say skills or can say the inspiration comes in cuz that's when I usually write between

September until April. That's when I'm at the side, right?

And then that's where the inspiration comes. That's when I feel like I'm at the top of the world.

Yeah. Like everything kind of like it's clear. Clarity is there. And then from around like May up until August, it's like downhill from there.

And you know how bipolar is

when you feel something like a normal person would feel, there's 10 times more.

So when it's sad, it's like sadder, like way too deep. And we can even get to a point whereby you are having suicidal thoughts, things like That's how deep it can be.

And then when you are happy and you're in a manic phase,

you feel like untouchable.

You know, you can go 2 3 days without sleeping and you are still functioning at 100%.

Wow.

You know, so those are the things that you have to experience or that you go through. And that's one of the conversations that we would have with my mother. Like I understand now why she was behaving the way she was behaving all along and those types of episodes and coming into our life now and then trying to manage that as well.

Yeah.

And I mean I shared I shared a story with you about a friend of mine that you know I went to to primary school with

and high school times um this guy is running around saying hey I won the lottery I won the lottery and only to find out that no man this guy why you so excited you didn't win anything

yeah

but he got aggressive you know I know I won I won like okay but okay well let's leave it you know so that for me was my my my introduction to bipolar at a at a very

young age

young age but also at a full-blown scale right whereas sometimes bipolite it's there you know it's someone you don't know so you don't really care but now as soon as it becomes someone that you've spoken to and that that becomes a very different thing but then there's a fear there or at least I experience a bit of fear cuz

how do I now relate to this guy cuz now he's suddenly acting in a way that I don't understand

yeah psychosis yeah you know so I want to I want to get to that you know in terms of people around you how they how are they impacted cuz now you you displaying um signs and things and you saying or doing things that they're not really

they don't used to. That's very true.

So it's a flip coin there because there are people who would support you who would see that okay this is a condition and then we're trying to be behind you and see how you can fully support you how you can move forward right and then there are those who still have the stigma

they feel like we don't know what to do some of them even family members like they keep quiet, they

they distance themselves and they're like, "We don't know what to do." So, I think this guy is crazy. You may think, you know, that that's what they're thinking. Perhaps they're not even vocalizing yet, but that's how they presenting themselves

and you can see it. Exactly.

You can you can read the the cues, the emotions.

So, I think it's it's that thing of some people would be there to support you, try to understand, be behind you, and then ask you what can we do?

Sure.

And there are those who like I We don't know what to do. We don't getting into it.

We'll just distance ourselves and then if he he comes,

we'll try and open ourselves up.

But it's not something that people easily open up open themselves up to.

Yeah.

Cuz what what what you said also earlier is in 2009 you went to a psychiatrist or you were looking for some what how what made you go there? How come you didn't go to a clinic or wherever you are from? You know, how how come you to go Yeah, cuz most people we don't think and and I had this conversation with my mother when I was a little bit younger. I had because of my moods. I also had said that man I think I need to see someone about this thing you know.

Yeah.

Unfortunately for her cuz she was a nurse her friend is a psychologist.

Then someone go to see

then you know but I never I never saw her because I was afraid because I was afraid.

Okay. Okay.

But then you know so thank God because my mother was in the medical field then that that thought was there but for you how did you

so I don't know hey I don't I don't I don't know how how that thought came to be

because I felt like because I'm struggling it has to be something in my head and there's an interesting thing that actually happened that I I skipped

yeah

when I was being diagnosed 2012 they also referred me to a a psychologist

and a social worker

wow okay

but I was I think I was too much into my head because I dismissed those people at at that time

the the psych we had an argument with the psychologist and I felt like this person doesn't know what she's doing. I was like, do you even know what what you're doing here? And she also got upset. I was like, I'm not going to continue the sessions here. She should give me like homework, do this, write things down. I was like, I don't see this going anywhere.

And then the the social worker after some time, I think about 8 months later into the year, that's when I saw the psycho the social worker, sorry.

So the social worker was like, you know what? What happened? with grief and also the emotions that go through it that you go through

is that your mind because it's divided into the cognitive side and also the emotional side

when you're feeling that pain it overpowers the other side of the mind

right

it's like when you when you clip your hand perhaps maybe one of your finger

the pain that you're experiencing at that point in time

it's so severe that you feel like your life is over because that is the only thing that matters at that point right where Whereas if you start and look around and and have a broad perspective, you can realize that it's just a finger. I still have the whole hand, I have the body, I have the arm. So I can focus on the things that are actually there, right? And that opens up your mind as well to saying you have the pain of losing someone that you love.

But instead of that overpowering everything that you can do, even your cognitive side of the the brain, you can try and broaden up what you can see. And then that can release that pressure from the other side of the brain. And then you can try and have a normal life but still having the pain there because it will never really go away.

It's just that you're managing it in a in a broader perspective and that actually helped me

because from that point on I tried to see the grief in a different light

and then that's how I think I started to heal and then through poetry as well it became quite easier. So at the beginning when I went to that center at VS I didn't know exactly what would come out of it

but I kind of like knew that I was struggling here and I needed help and For the life of me, I don't know why I thought I needed a psychologist at that point in time.

Yeah. But that's how it happened.

And you hadn't spoken to anyone else in your circle.

Nothing. No. My friends didn't know anything. Everyone was like, "Okay, what's going on with you? You are saying that you're dropping your grades, but they didn't know what was going on in my life. And I was also not sure what was going on at that point. I was like getting blank really on the exam day,

not knowing what to write and what to do. And I was like, but I read this thing. What was, you know, what's wrong now? But yeah, and then I flunked. I flung my my second year.

I ended up dropping out of vids when I went back home.

Yeah. All of that. But in the end, I managed to to get through life again.

So it it it now forced you to kind of restructure your life in some way. So dropping out. So what happened from from the dropping out? Did you

change courses or?

Not necessarily. So what happened is that I moved to the V. This is where I'm from. And then I regrinted for the same cost at VT.

Okay.

Yeah. Right. And then I fought with the system there.

Okay.

Because

uh when I applied I already passed my first year. So I asked them to credit me the the the courses that already the modu that already passed right so that I can continue from then on.

But they wanted me to start from first year.

So I was like no when I applied I sent the syllabus. I sent everything that I've done. I sent my transcript. So how come you didn't credit me? So I I had a 6 month like sort of like a tiffy with them a conflict with v and then they're like no we will credit you if you come back next year

and they did and then when I came the following year I felt like the standard was not the same because I I had to do like one module per day that was like studying at 3:00 p.m. to 4 p.m. So for the rest of the whole day I'm not doing anything and then they're not wanting to give me

other modules to to take on. They're like you have to pass these ones to get on to the other mod. I was like this is not this is not helping me as well.

Was that was was was your diagnosis kind of acknowledged when you applied at VT?

At that point no because it was 2011 at that point.

So the diagnosis happened in 2012.

Okay.

And that's when I also dropped out of V2. I was like okay I can't function now.

Okay.

Yeah. And then I needed help. So that's when my mother helped me out through the the psychiatrist.

And then from then on I stayed home. home for like 3 to four years.

Wow.

Trying to manage this whole thing, changing medication, not doing anything. But that's when I poured into my poetry. That's when I felt like I need to write things down to journal to channel all this energy into something, something constructive as well, not just going for drugs or alcohol or whatever that people tend to do when they're feeling under pressure, you know. And that's when I started to heal. And then from then on, I started a new path. I was like, you know what? I'm going to go back to engineering. Let me just try something. you have a fresh perspective

and then see how that can take me and then that's when I applied for a leadership

and then from then on I kind of like moved on from the leadership course doing something in corporate and then I find out I found out that I actually enjoyed it

you know

and I moved through the corporate ladder up until now.

Wow man. Wow.

So that you know when I when I listen to that story I kind of see it as it's a rebirth right in a way. It's it's a bit of a morbid way to look at it as a rebirth but you you then changed even courses even your outlook on life. I like that. I love the analogy that you used of, you know, your finger being hurt and that's like the biggest thing in the world and like you've got a arm, you've got a palm, there's a hand, there's a body attached to it. Exactly.

You know, now you're starting to see things a little bit more exact in a different light, right? More expansive.

So,

there's always this idea of of an alter ego, right? Or multiple selves in in in bipolar or whenever we talk about people who are not mentally well. Let's maybe Yeah, mental illness, right? That I there are these different characters. I don't know if you you ever get a sense of that when you either doing your poetry or just in daytoday as you're saying you go through seasons, right?

Do you feel like you're a different person in any of these seasons?

I I do definitely I do. Uh I feel like especially when it comes to pray as I said for me the inspiration comes on my many side of the months, right?

Yeah. Like when it gets to uh spring, summer,

that's when I feel at my highest and the inspiration tends to come there. That's when I I write.

Yeah.

But on my on my set months,

nothing nothing really comes through.

So you've never written anything on during those?

No.

Wow.

But in my meaning, I would still reflect on what happened during my

my depressive side, my depressive mood. Right. You find that in my writing as well. So some of the experiences there through the depress the depressive side of things.

So the water ego thing I think it's there because even when I write it's sort of like I'm in a trance

and then I embody a different personality

because I'm giving people a glimpse of what I go through

and then they get to understand it from that perspective

and then on a day-to-day life I wouldn't talk the same way I write. I wouldn't do the things exactly. So I feel like we do embody those different personalities or sort of uh I don't know how to put it a life experience in different perspectives

that makes you embody that that alter ego

man

yeah

I love that I love that it's it's a it's it's a different way of exploring the soul you know

you can put it that way there's a book I've been reading over the past few months called Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore I think you you would you would enjoy that actually I should I should send you a some kind of link to it, something just so you you hear a little bit about it.

But in the he talks about the gifts of depression, right?

So in a sense that when when you are depressed, the idea of it is you kind of think you don't have an imagination. You can't see color, right?

You lose something.

Sure. Exactly. And and now when you are in that space, as depressing as it is, it's like you're being pressed down using

um Paka Palmer's words, right? As he sees depression as the hand of a friend lifting him up as opposed to the hand of an enemy pushing him down.

Right. And it's a very interesting. So, so when you say when you now in your in your season of writing, when you're in a high state in a way, then you can reflect on that experience. Exactly.

So, yeah, depression does keep you there, but then as soon as you come out, then hey, you give birth to that.

Exactly.

And it's a wonderful I don't know if if that's anything that that you've considered, you know, cuz some I read it and it's Yeah, sure. It's fancy when you read it, but then for from your experience and I see the glow in your face, so it does make sense.

It does. It does. I've never I've never thought of it that way, but it does really make sense because you kind of like

embody or experience or also if I to put it as a as a an over overview,

you see what happened in your past.

Sure.

Or Yeah, you can put it that way. What happened in your past and you acknowledge it and you take it forward. You know, so that's that's how I I understand real rebirth to say

when I come out of the depressive mode, when I come to the many episodes,

I can also go back and see that I've went through a certain phase

and that wasn't easy.

Things were dark. Things were not looking up. It's like the end of the world.

But you came out of that and then you came victorious.

And then now you're seeing life in a different view and then you're like, you know what,

it's not the end of the world. Actually,

there is light at the end of the tunnel. There's something to look forward. in life and then we can move forward with that.

Now, I like that analogy cuz you know we we we speak about depression and anxiety and all of these things and I know they're very deep things and they they can easily kill someone, right? Or not easily, but they can take you to some really dark places. But at the same time, I think there's a lot to learn from those experiences, you know, and it might sound like I'm encouraging people to get depressed. That's not what

you don't want to be depressed to actually experience the other side. Yeah, but sometimes it might be, you know, because of many things. Maybe because I see myself as something that I'm definitely not, you know, and I might have to get depressed for me to actually see that. KG, that's not true, man.

Exactly. Exactly.

But because I'm denying that thing and I want to perform and be that person, then it just keeps me even more depressed, you know?

That's true.

So, so, so I guess in in a in a way I'm also encouraging people to say that in that depressive state, it's actually an opportunity to learn. Although you don't see it as an opportunity to learn. Of course, get help, reach out, do all the things that are necessary, but sometimes even reaching out might not be enough.

Exactly. Sometimes it might not mention to say

with me, yes, it's bipolar. With other people, it's major depression. It's a PTSD. There's there's there are other complications or complex conditions that people face in mental health. The illnesses are

are numerous to kind of like even count. If you think about it, some of them are even undiagnosed as yet probably they're still researching or looking into it.

So you find that people who are having major depression they don't see the way out that's the only life they know

and they feel they even feel comfortable in it

you know sometimes that's how how deep and difficult these conditions can be I can just imagine if I was always depressed

how life would be so narrow and difficult for me

you know

and and also is is just to encourage people also out there that it's it's it's not it's not the end of the world.

It's not it's not everything pushing you down or as you mentioned the

the hand of an enemy pushing you down.

There is something that you can look forward to and also with with the help of the the healthare workers, the psychiatrist, the psychologist, people that are there to support you,

you can have the support that you need

to have a normal life. You know, it's not that

when you are depressed or you are facing major depression or you bipolar,

then you'll always be that person that they stigmatize and say, "He's crazy.

There's no future for him.

Look at me. I managed to turn myself around

and also turn my life around."

Exactly.

You know, so not focusing on one thing at the same time or throughout the whole life

makes you see life in a different light,

you know, and you can take those experiences, see how you can shape your life through them and make yourself a better person.

And I love that, you know, when I when I when I I saw your messages initially when you reached out and I started following you and that when I look at your social media I see family you know I see community I see kids playing you know I see smiles I see obviously there are other things there that we might not see

exactly

but for the most part there's support

you know very true

so so so I want to speak to that that idea of support in terms of you've got a lovely wife you've got a lovely family as I said how how how did they now wrestle with these things And also in terms of planning family now because you know there's a gene there right is

now it's a fear ish do I when I give

I do have that fear I do have that fear when I look at my boys and sometimes like this one might just follow my steps and I need to try carefully and see how I can manage the emotions but also at the same time uh for me I feel like I have a wonderful wife

my wife is also in a healthcare space she's an occupational therapist

dealing with the psychiatric side of things, right? Because they their their their field is broad.

And I would also encourage that people reach out to those fields.

Don't be afraid to to talk to a psychologist or a psychiatrist because

to a certain measure of an extent, they are able to assist you.

Sure.

Even though they studied for these things, they don't see the life cause that you live

and they don't see all the struggles that you face.

But to an extent, they they they can provide some measure of assistance, some help somewhere there and there.

So, I would say my my wife is a wonderful person because she has managed to help me

to be on a straight path so to say.

Sure.

She could also see my triggers. She also knows that okay, this point in time I must be pulled back

or I must be supportive. I must give this person a hug and say that things are going to be okay.

So, I think those things they matter most to someone living with a illness, a mental health illness.

Sure. than trying to to push something that's different and that they might not even enjoy. Sometimes friends don't even understand what's going on, you know.

So the support that you get from family sometimes from friends, yes, it's it's it's something that we need

and we might not even realize that we need it as much

as you know. So so I think it's it's it's a it's a sense of community that we need to

put ourselves in so that we don't isolate ourselves to the point that we are always depressed. Oh,

so that will help. And then also when you see the smiles on the on the young one there

when they are playing and they come to you and give you a hug and say thank you daddy that also lights up your face you know

like the gratitude that you see and then you also feel like okay I'm I'm responsible for someone else's life.

So you you get to see also some of the things that they they

they kind of like center you as a person you know to say like I'm a family orientated person so I love family and I feel like it grounds me. M

it makes me not just a husband. I'm not just a father but

I'm this person living with a condition

managing life as it is.

So I think it's it's it's it's a wonderful thing to have a community. So and that's why I write mostly about my family there in the book

helping people to kind of like see life through our lens

to say don't take these experiences that you're reading through the book as just mine.

Try and see other people you may know living with a mental health illness and see life through their lens

because those experiences, those moments are what shapes them.

Man, ah man, you're touching my soul there, man. You're reminding me of a man I study a lot, uh, Joseph Campbell talking about the hero's journey, right? So, the hero's journey, there's uh I said something and I'm I'm paraphrasing a lot now, but we do not have to risk the adventure alone because the heroes before us have walked the path, right?

Wow. So, as you say that you know sometimes it's learning through others who've gone the path you know so we can also maybe know kind of the way yeah it might seem very different from us and we might have a very different experience on the journey but then at least you know these are the things that are there

exactly

so yeah thank you for bringing that

and you know now now I'm going into some other realms here but you I'm I'm in a in a season of um working on on my soul and my spirit right um as I as I mentioned the book Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore and I I I encourage anyone who's listening to this please get your hands on that spend a bit of time with it

make keep it in your house that's I think it's a book that you can keep forever right but in the um soul work is also spiritual work right

and I believe that writing is is one of the best ways to access that part of yourself, right? So, you wrote something here. Yesterday, I had a day with a spiritual brother.

Oh, yes.

And when I saw that, my like my face just lit up and I I don't want to read the whole thing, but as you open it, there there isn't something concrete in being with someone like that. It's the conversations that you mention. You know, yesterday I had a lovely day with a spiritual brother who sounds like my twin brother, right? Although not a biological brother, we drove, we wrote, we read, we spoke, we sat and ate, we laughed about things that normal people would not normally laugh about. I mean, do you know what happened yesterday?

I remember I I remember that poem very well and the scenes that brought that into light. You know,

uh it was a time when uh I had wronged my friends actually at that point. I had said something about him that actually didn't really sit well,

but I reflected on the good times that we had and I wanted him to kind of like understand how much I value and appreciate him.

And all of those things, they they came rushing into my mind. I was like, I'm going to write this down

and and I gave it to him. I was like, you know what?

This is for you.

And I want you to actually value this more than what I wronged you with,

and don't take it as if I don't love you anymore,

you know?

So, and And that that also gave me some solace and comfort to so to see him acknowledging my my my apology and also taking this into heart as well. So I remember that it was it was one of my best poems.

I love this man because also you know do you know what happened yesterday you mention a bunch of things here right and it's things like we wrote we read they sound like ah okay so you just

yeah just simple

right simple things but those are the things that actually stay in the spirit in the soul you know exactly so that that's yeah that just it called out to me. So a brother, a twin brother, although not a biological brother, also speaks to the connections that we build, you know, over time in our lives. So maybe the other question that I have for you is around friendship, right?

Yes, I also speak about that.

Yes, sir.

So, so I mean tell me about just we spoke about earlier how friends around you then started to experience you after.

Yes. Yes.

But now you are growing, you're going through things, you're right. wring books. How how how do you see friendship now? And in terms of guys, you know, not to give advice for sure, but in terms of relating with each other, how you how do you see the state of friendships right now?

I think it has changed from from before the diagnosis and after as well as growing up. You know, you have other life experiences that you you go through

and I think one of the biggest things that I I do with friends and people that I interact with, I always put through their thought of mental health into the picture so that I can read the room

and see how people react to it, right? Because that also tells you who's genuine and who's not.

Okay?

And then it also eliminates a lot of time wasting if I to put it. If you're going to waste your time with people who don't care about you,

then what's the point?

Sure.

You know,

so throwing that into the mix into the conversation, it kind of like helps to read the room, figure out who really is

your true friend. and who is not.

And sometimes we may get it wrong. We might not actually read the room correctly. Someone who might be pulled back. You might think that, oh, maybe they don't care, but actually they're internalizing things. They're trying to figure out how they can be there for you.

So, you have to also give people a chance and see how they can they can be there for you, right?

But I do feel like friendships, I see them differently now.

Sure.

I have those people who are around me who support me.

I have the psychology that I go through once a month or once in two months that I pour myself out and tell them what's going on in my life.

So, we need those spaces

and we need people that are not nonjudgmental, right?

Nudgmental. And then you'll find that there are friends who are like that, who are like, you know what, you can say whatever you like.

I'm here for you.

Yes, sir.

Sometimes you can even rumble and say things that don't make sense, but they're like, "Okay, even though I didn't understand what you're saying, I'm still here."

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

And then you have those people are like, "I don't know what you're saying, bro."

Sure. What What are you saying?

Yeah. Like, I don't you what's what's wrong with you? What's what's happening here? And then they'll walk away and it's also fine. It's it's good. And and you know, you can move life. You can move into life without them.

Doesn't mean it's the end of it, you know. But there are those that stay because they understand that this is a condition. This is not a life permanent thing for a person.

It's something that is manageable. You can go and then you can become a friend. They won't run away because they think that you're going to stab them or anything.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just because of a mental health illness, it doesn't mean that you are prone to violence, you know, all of these things.

So, friendships are there and I I like talking about about that even in the book because I know that they are there to center you as well.

Yes, sir.

All right, man. So, you know, you you operate in a in a space of of accepting, man, of you know, I get it, you know, I I I I don't have to be understood, but sure, I understand. I want push up.

Um, and I wonder what I mean, you you've you've said the words But I wonder how that now translates into how you see yourself

you know.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's that's quite deep. E the way I see myself now. Um

it's not like one of those questions where they ask you tell me who I am. Tell tell me a little bit about yourself. You know that question.

It's a very generic. No.

Yeah. It really touches to the soul because it makes reflect

and look into what they've done, what they've accomplished, what they have not even been able to accomplish in life and their

their dreams and goals and objectives that they want to get to,

right?

And who I am today, I feel like uh I'm I'm privileged.

I'm privileged to have life itself. I'm privileged to have a family,

people who support me, who love me.

I see myself also living through other people's experience. es.

So we learn from others not to become them.

Mhm.

And also at the same time not to follow their path per se,

but to shape our own paths

because of the experiences that we've learned from them.

Sure.

So sometimes we don't have to go through something to learn uh some lessons in life, you know.

So I feel like

I'm that person now.

That's how I see myself. Not just as a poet, not just as a husband and a father. Not just as a brother to my to my brothers or a son to my mother, you know,

I see myself embodying a lot of

life experiences

and then they they shape who I am now

and that's Yeah, that's me,

man.

That's me.

It's a beautiful place to be, right?

It's a beautiful place to be, man. So, I want us to give you I want you to give us a a piece of this poetry, man. I want I want you to give us a piece of this poetry so we can um speak on it a little bit. So, it was uh it's that one that I mentioned. E

Mhm.

It was It was Friday the 18th.

It's quite a bit long, but I'll I'll try.

We got time. We got time. We got time. Okay. All right. Let's go through it.

It was Friday. Even my my my my tone changes when I read my poetry. So, don't mind that.

Please, please do it the right way, my sir. Do it the right way.

All right. Perfect. Yes, sir.

It was Friday the 18th. My heart pumped a type of blood that cannot be described in words. I turn to reason it was not red. My diaphragm which kept silent 4 years still and constant check almost tethered suppression, depression, a fusion of chemical reactions and imbalances in the brain that puts a man in a vulnerable state. Add to that an ironic and mockery laughter. My psyche conveyed the entire message to my heart at once, as if a sharp spear had just pierced through a bottom ventricle down to a centerpiece that holds all the emotions. Even the atriums and the pulmonary arteries were in tethers. We can imagine what happened next. I see you are puzzled and lost. Let me tell you, I cried. Why? Tears like constant rainstorm fell upon my thigh. My shed hid the shame since it was striped. What was happening? It was Friday the 18th. The severe pain I never felt before bubbled forth that day. What a shame my shed had to bear before the crowd at a big event. My hand could reach the face but could not hold the tears. It was a drama. It was a drama that touched my soul to the latter. My life passed before my eyes. I saw all the dreams, aspirations, goals, expectations, none of them fulfilled. My entire efforts to begin life shut before my eyes. That hurts. I don't care what you think. It hurts, especially without a valid reason from youth up until that day. But a man is allowed to cry. A man is allowed to cry. It pains me to write this. You might still want Wonder where the laughter comes from. I reasoned. Why should I cry for sinners? How does it happen for one to feel pain for someone who never cared? Mixed emotions. Yes. 45 minutes later, my eyes were red. It was Friday the 18th. My soul was relieved.

Come on, man. Come on, man. That's such a When you speak of roller coaster,

it is all everything in one.

Wow. Wow. And this Friday the 18th was the day things actually crashed out for you.

It crashed out. So I was at one of Jehovah's Witnesses conventions.

Mhm.

So and then they acted at a drama there. I don't even remember what it was about

but it made me remember my father.

Wow.

And I started seeing him in a different light.

At that point I could not hold my chairs. It really touched me.

And that's when I was like I'm going to write this down. Man,

so I reflected and saw from the point when I left vase, when I left VU,

how the diagnosis took place, how I had to stay at home for like 3 or 4 years and then I just kept in check like trying to balance everything for everyone not to see how I feel. Like there was a lot that was going on, but I was trying to always be uh like sort of like in a in a facade whereby you're masking your emotions, you're masking everything so that people don't know what you're going through.

But it broke down at that point,

man.

And it opened up my heart. And then that's what really happened. I saw all my life experiences kind of like flashing through. When people say they see their life before they die, I think that that was an experience for me in that in that moment at that time,

you know. And then that's yeah, that's how I started to release and that's when I grieved.

And you say it right there, the severe pain I never felt before. bubbled forth that day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was heavy

and it was a play. But you see what I mean? So it's the arts, right, that that that bring out that thing, right?

The people. Exactly. It's the arts. It's the music. There's a lot that we see

and it it it takes it takes creativity, you know,

and that's another thing that I wanted to touch on a little bit because even the healthcare workers, they are trained to diagnose us. You know,

they they see things on a textbook to say,

"Let's look at these symptoms and check these boxes. Then this person is bipolar, this person is schizophrenic,

this one has anxiety, or this one is major or whatever the case may be.

But they don't know the life experiences that we go through.

They don't know the caregivers, people that are actually around you. If you have a wife or you have a sister or a mother, someone who lives around you who takes care of you with your emotional and psychiatric pain.

They don't know those experiences, how they shape the person. They just

look at what they've read, what they've learned, the textbooks, and they're like, "Okay, we're going to administer this medication because we've learned that this can work and can help this person." It's also for them a trial and error,

but it shows that there's more to it that we can break the official way of people doing things.

Yes, sir.

You know, Yes, sir.

There's there's there's much more into a person than just what you see on the on the face on the on the surface,

you know, and also looking at what the arts can do.

They can also help people see things in a different light

and then they can be that platform or that channel that can help others understand what people are going through.

You know, because in music we know that certain types of music they will touch someone. You see that you're listening to it and you cry alone

or you are heavy because this song just boost up your your your emotions, you know, and the poetic can do that. the same. Some writings can be the same. The storytelling,

it's one of the things that can help us to break the stigma as well.

And I love I love where you're going with that because I'm I'm definitely for alternative ways of of dealing with these issues, right? These mental illnesses, whether it is a season, whether it is a phase of depression that you're going through, whatever it is,

you always have to have some kind of tool that you can access. And I think creativity, as you say, being creative about about how how how how do I get to know me, you know, how do I get to explore me? Of course, I can go out. Like I said, I never dis I never stop people from or discourage people from going to see a a professional. Of course, you got to go and go go ahead and do it. But what I also advocate for is the constant writing, constant journaling, constant going to the park for walks, constant, you know, daily, maybe weekly or what, whatever you choose. But there's an ity there's a ritual there's something that you say I'm taking time out purposely or intentionally to go and just tune in to myself right

some of us go to church and and some of us think churches are we just there to celebrate but there's a lot going on when you there in the church right and that's why church people for the most part they don't even think they have mental health issues because they have so much spirit in there they so fulfilled but of course it doesn't mean that they don't right and that's where the comes in that you still need to go see someone but for the most part you are very wellunction

regulated yeah so so I love that you bring that conversation that I think even the people working in hospitals people who are also in in other sectors maybe that are not very formalized it would be to their benefit for them to start exploring these other alternative more creative type of

holistic yes holistic healing right um

but I mean I I don't know if if that's something that is taken seriously enough though.

Yeah.

Ah because it seems like you're just journaling. What what are you doing? You just writing down your feelings, you know,

and you think that it's it's it's not something that can impact you for the long run.

Especially when you I don't know because for me sometimes what happens is that I can write and then I don't I don't go back. I don't read what I've written.

But over time When you look at that journal that you've probably finished

in whatever months or years or days, it depends how much you can journal at that point in time.

And then you read your own thoughts at a different space

and you you get to realize some of the things that you you went through or that

actually shaped you at that point in time. They were healing for you

and you didn't realize.

Sometimes you find that people would use destructive things to try and heal themselves. to try and heal their soul.

But if you try and find things that are constructive,

they can help you to become a better person even for others.

They can look at that person and say, you know what, I can also fight my own battles with mental health because I see that other people are able to do it as well,

you know. So, taking smaller steps, taking things that are light and simple,

they're actually more impactful and powerful.

That's true.

You know,

and that can help a person to kind of like be able to manage life as they go through all these conditions as well.

The problem is looking for short-term solutions, man. Quick, fast. I need I need to be fixed now cuz I have to go to work, you know, because I need to sort this out.

You know what? You need pills, you need alcohol, you need drugs. That that doesn't help. It sometimes makes the problem even worse,

you know. So, yeah, it's it's always looking for con constructive ways of making things work for you and pouring to yourself and then that can help you to pour to others as well.

Amen. Are you speaking to me right now, man? I'm not always the most positive. You know, when things go left, you know, I might get into some things that I shouldn't be, but hey, you know, for the most part, I've got my journals. I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of bike riding. And those things for me, as much as bike riding seems like cycling 60ks,

but that is a way for me to just tone down whatever is going on in my head.

And you need that. You need you need to release some some of those hormones. I don't call them hormones whatever you need to have that type of thing in life soever you can release some of these and that's why people go to gym you know and exercise because they need to release that so that they can also regulate themselves

so now outside of writing for you

what is what is

um

I bake

I was about to go there I was about to go there but I see you baking all the time so

yeah Yeah. And those things like we saying you take them as in like man this guy baking

but there's a there's a soulful soulfulness to that right.

Yes. For me the whole the whole art of it

it calms me down.

I won't lie. So when I'm too stressed or I feel like life is unbearable for me.

I do something as simple as baking because

I I enjoy the whole process from mixing the dough, measuring the sugar, whatever the case may be up until I see the product that whole process calms me down.

You might as you say take it as a simple thing like you bike riding for whatever kilometers

but that is something that helps you to center and also to to ground yourself.

So those are the other things that you can do like find a a hobby

that is not just passive.

Sure.

You know that engages

that engages you. Exactly. And then you feel because it's also tiring to bake.

It takes a lot It takes energy. It takes you like thinking and then checking whether the things are not getting banned and all of that.

But it also helps you kind of like use that time in a constructive way.

You know, not just sitting and watching TV all the time. Not always scrolling through social media whereby you need an instant gratification all the time. You know, you get to see things happen and then you what do they call this thing?

Um when you when you're kind of like uh in tune with the that you're doing.

Sure. When in flow.

Yes. Like when you're eating and then you try like and and and and smell the

the senses and I forgot the the

savoring to say. So it helps you to do that as well, you know. So that that those are some of the things that we can do to to cope

with some of these mental health challenges, you know, and it's something that will be fulfilling for you to you'll see the rewards later on. When you start small, you'll see that you can build up from there.

Yeah.

I love it, man. Start Oh man, keep it simple and do what feels good for you. I know there's people there's KG on social media telling you that, hey, you must ride a bike. No, no, no. Do what you

Exactly. Do what what makes you feel good. I like that. I like that.

So, I think there's there's one more piece that I I I think Yeah, I think it needs to be and we did speak to it where we spoke about the caregivers or the people in the institutions, mental health institutions need needing to be trained on other parts right or of how to deal with it. Like we saying the creative elements even creative therapies are also part of there's a big rise in that right so also misdiagnosis I think is also a challenge

it's a big deal

it's a big challenge

so I don't know how how to even speak to that I mean you haven't been misdiagnosed but I'm pretty sure we have had cases where people have been misdiagnosed because hey we just wanted to check a list you know and get this person out of here. These people must just get out,

you know. So, so sometimes I think

affects a person in a very in a very negative way

and for long term sometimes, you know,

and I don't know how to speak to that because it's one of those things that

there are mistakes in life.

Even even the professionals, they would make those and then they're not perfect.

Sure.

And we just have to kind of like manage it moving forward or deal with it

because

you find that someone who has misdiagnosed Maybe instead of being bipolar diagnosed, they are now schizophrenic diagnosed, right?

And then they probably exhibiting symptoms that are not a person who's living with a schizophrenia condition.

And then that can that can set a person back.

Yes. And they're unable to to manage their emotions. They're unable to manage their psychiatric condition because

they're in a wrong path of trying to solve themselves in a way, you know.

And it's one of those things that we have to kind of like tread carefully with with the

with the healthare workers

and ask as much as much questions as we are able to

sure

so that we and also read about other conditions not just the one that you you are living with

and then try to figure out to say but I've read this and then this means something different are you sure that it's not this part

because I may be feeling this way and I feel like I resonate and I and I acknowledge this part of

the the psychiatric condition than what you're telling me

so be open to talk to the to the psychiatrist or the doctor. Don't feel like they always have to tell you what to do or this is how you are, you know.

So, challenge those things. Challenge the their way of thinking because that's how you'll also figure out that maybe this is not for you. Maybe this is not the right path for you to take or they're not helping you as much as they're supposed to, you know. So, challenging those those norms as well, they can help us to find that holistic way of being taken care of.

Ah, I love that, bro. I love it. Stay informed. Stay find out right there's a lot and you know I always have to say it when you listen to this conversation there might be things that we say that might make you think that hey maybe there's something wrong you know

but that is that is just a curiosity for you to say okay you heard it on the podcast now let's go out and read about it let's go talk to someone about it let's speak to other people to actually see if maybe this thing I'm not understanding it that way or maybe Hey, I actually do understand it. So, I love that you brought that, man. The idea of that is basically to also just show that people can live with these uh illnesses or mental health conditions and still fully function

successfully,

you know, fully function don't want to go there or they going to get aggressive or whatever other assumptions. Just talk to the person they might

we can actually touch them.

We can help them see that you know what you can get professional help for for this type of condition

or you can be able to get other support systems that can help you get out of the situation.

Come on, man. Come on, man.

So, I think I want to give you some bars, man. You gave me such such wonderful bars. So, you mentioned something that when you write things, you don't go back and look at them

at times

after a very long time sometimes. Right.

So, I had a man I got a song that just that just came to me, right? And I'll say it And I'll say it, but I'll say it. I won't rap it. I'll try not to rap it, but I'll say it so you can hear it.

Life's moments that I'll never regret. School by real brothers. I can never forget. Connected through this music. Fighting my mood swings. Self-reflecting and trying to do some new things. Music is my drug and I'm straight abusing. Shoot it in my veins. No, I can't refuse it. Put it on a page. Bit of pain. Diffuse it. Don't confuse it for sad songs. Just use it to get up out your blues. Refuse. to be held down. Don't drown in sorrow. Keep your head up. Look for better tomorrows. Got to man up and get about that bed, my brother. Stand up. See, when you go for yours, they can't stand you. And when you reap rewards, you going to remember through all the sleepless nights, the tears, the strife, you got to live through it, brother. This is life.

Wow.

And when I wrote that, I was like, this is

that's deep, eh?

This is calling me out, man.

That's really deep.

So, in preparation for this episode. I was reading your book a lot and I thought to myself, I've never said these words on the podcast. I performed these songs a few times.

Sure.

At a very different phase of my life,

but now when I think about them, when I read these words, they have so much more meaning.

Exactly. I just had those those bars there

and I just got a bit of a lump in my throat, you know.

But that's Yeah. So that's that's kind of the the phase through that time.

Was a healing face, you know, you healing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yo,

and that was brought on by grief. You know what I mean? Yeah.

I think grief is is a powerful thing.

The most listened to episode on man-up conversations is on grief.

That is a very fascinating thing for me cuz we've spoken about many things, but the episode about grief happens to be the one

and I could argue that there are a lot of people going through it in life and in different forms. You know, it might be a job loss, it might be the loss of a relationship, it might be the of all of those things and money and a car and a house and many different things.

You go through grief.

There's a loss of not meeting your own expectations, man.

Yes.

And that is heavy grief.

That was what I was writing about this.

That is heavy grief, you know.

Exactly.

So, I say that to say, man, I I am fascinated by this book, Raw Feelings. I'm fascinated by your approach to dealing with what you went through and just um humble manner that you kind of just carry on with life. Um I I I've spoken to you many times on the socials and never at any point that I think

there's some bipolar or mood disorder or anything. I just thought this guy is interested in mental health. That's it. But to read this to speak to you and hear about the journey that you've been through, I'm truly honored and I hope that you listening to this um you'll get a copy of Delila's book. We'll put det details in the show notes for you to get uh to get a hold of him, to get in touch with him, have chats, invite him over. Maybe you want to do some poetry readings. I think the youth can benefit a lot from this type of mental health intervention as opposed to coming with charts. Sure, we can come with charts, but let's put some poetry in there. Let's put some creative elements in there, you know?

And man, I don't know. Maybe maybe I just inspired you with those bars. I don't know. Maybe hit you with something.

Yeah, I'm not a bar person. But no, they really did touch me because I could see through that that it was a healing phase, you know.

So, writing is a powerful thing, guys.

Let's not take it for granted. Yeah. Writing is really is really powerful because

when you read someone else's thoughts,

when you get to understand how they feel,

it also makes you it touches you in a different way.

So, I remember when I was I was doing my trick, one of my teachers once mentioned that if you want to to fool the world, right? things down and pay them.

Wow. Wow.

I never understood that all along, but it made sense as I grew up,

man.

To say things that are written down, they will fool the world, but they are powerful on their own.

Exactly.

Come on, man. I don't think we can close any better than that. Bro,

thank you so much, M. Man, it has been a wonderful return. Please go on Instagram. Please go on Tik Tok. Please go on Twitter. Please go on Facebook. Mand up conversations. We everywhere. Go on Substack. We got some articles for you there. We're building up some new stuff as well in the new year coming for you. So, I'll make some announcements. But you can hear I'm excited, man. So, you know, I can't wait. I can't wait. There's a lot coming up. Yeah, there's a lot coming. So, stay tuned. And as always, peace and love.