Deliverance, Baptism & Church History | Matthew Esquivel

The early church didn't just baptize new believers. They delivered them first. For the first several centuries of Christianity, exorcism wasn't a dramatic spectacle reserved for extreme cases. It was woven into the baptismal rite itself, practiced across traditions, and considered a normal part of welcoming someone into the body of Christ. Somewhere along the way, we forgot.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
Matthew Esquivel returns to Remnant Radio to walk us through overlooked chapters in church history. We'll examine the deep and consistent link between baptism and deliverance in the early church. From the Apostolic Tradition attributed to Hippolytus of Rome in the third century, to the Seventh Council of Carthage in 258 AD, to the near-universal practice of renouncing Satan as part of the baptismal liturgy, the historical record is clear. The church fathers didn't see deliverance as a crisis intervention. They saw it as part of what it meant to cross from one kingdom into another.

This episode is for believers who want to understand deliverance ministry historically and theologically. It's for people who've seen something real in deliverance prayer but haven't had the church history to back it up. And it's for the skeptics who wonder whether any of this has any grounding in Christian tradition.

0:00 – Introduction
4:52 – Baptism & Deliverance Overview
7:31 – Defining Christian Initiation
13:29 – Baptism in Scripture
21:36 – Acts 8 & Typology
31:03 – Tertullian on Baptism
40:45 – Cyprian's Baptismal Rite
58:16 – Augustine's Exorcism Account
1:05:40 – Practical Application Today
1:11:42 – Closing Thoughts

INTRODUCTION TO DELIVERANCE MINISTRY:
https://www.theremnantradio.com/intro-to-deliverance-ministry

Subscribe to The Remnant Radio newsletter and receive our FREE introduction to spiritual gifts eBook. Plus, get access to: discounts, news about upcoming shows, courses and conferences - and more. Subscribe now at TheRemnantRadio.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Rennet Radio. In this program, I've got Dr. Matthew Esquivel with us, and we're gonna be talking about the patristics, the early church fathers, and how they got rid of critters using baptismal waters. It's gonna be an exciting program. You guys stay tuned. And my intro video didn't live. Because it was lost. Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this live program where accidents happen all the time. Guys, I'm uh very excited for today's program uh with Matthew Escobel. If your first time here, usually when I say it's gonna be a great program, you guys stay tuned. There's this little boo-do-do-doo soundtrack that kind of comes in with uh a logo and it's it is beautiful. But sometimes uh, you know, uh technology works half of the time, 20% of the time. So thank you so much for jumping into this program. Uh my name is Joshua Lewis. Uh here we here at Remnite Radio do lots of content uh involving church history, involving theology and spiritual gifts. If that stuff is interesting to you, make sure to subscribe to the channel. Uh if you want to be updated, all the stuff we come out with every week. Uh, there's a great newsletter at the bottom of this video in the description where you can subscribe to the newsletter and then be updated every time we come out with content because sometimes the YouTube algorithms you get lost in the thoughts. Without further ado, uh my friend Michael Miller is not in his studio. He is over in Germany. Tell us how it's going over there uh in Germany, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Uh great. I'm I've been was in Budapest visiting some of our missionaries uh from the church and then came over here to Germany prior to heading to Barcelona to actually do a deliverance conference in Barcelona of all places. So I'm just here with my family um hanging out in the tiny little village uh out uh it's out in the middle of nowhere. There's not like a nearby like Cologne, I guess would be the closest uh city in Germany. But yeah, we're having a great time. Uh eating lots of German foods and um drinking lots of tea uh because it's 11 p.m. here, so I don't want to drink coffee.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

That's it. Well, thanks for jumping on the program, buddy. Uh, I appreciate your commitment to the crap. Uh Matthew Escovel, it's been a while since you've been on the program. I didn't look it up, uh, but it's been a while. You and I have stayed in contact. You speak at my church pretty regularly, actually. Uh tell people how things are going with your life, a little bit about yourself or people who aren't familiar with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yeah, well, this whole past year has been kind of a wild year. Um, I I finished my uh doctoral studies from Southern Methodist University uh 2024, and so have done done some teaching um with that, which has been really fun, teaching some church history classes. Um really enjoyed that. And um yeah, have like Josh said, been doing some ministry. I like kind of my world is weird. I've kind of stepped back, not kind of, I've stepped back in a big way from a lot of ministry. So really coming to Josh's church. I think Josh, when I came, you know, I guess I well I came last year, I came last summer, but um anyway, I there a amount of time went by where I was just taking a step back from ministry, just kind of um get my bearings in life and um um moved moved into a house um probably sometime around since the last time I've been on. So anyway, just a lot of life change and transition. But um, but it's been fun. It's been fun. I'm I'm glad to be back on with you guys.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Well, we're glad to have you. And if you're out there and you've got like an Anglican or Methodist church or non-Denom church that has a really high and lofty view of like uh high church tradition, you can reach us and we'll get that into information to Matthew Escovel, who would love to pastor for you. I'm putting I don't think you didn't want me to say this before the program. Uh, but if you want to hire a PhD'd guy, uh he doesn't really want to move outside of Texas, though. So if you're you're kind of in that like Dallas area. I know I've been really picky.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

You know, I'm Hispanic and all of our family is here, and just you know, Latinos like to stay close to each other. We're uh we're just playing we're saying if I'm moving, everyone's come with me.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah. So if you've got a very large parsonage out of state, that might work too.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Uh there you go. Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Let's let's talk about uh uh this concept, Matthew, because I was like, hey, you it's been a while since you come on the program. I want you to come on. Uh let's talk about some kind of intersection of like spiritual gifts and patristic era stuff. You're like, hey, this has been something we've vocalized a couple times on the program. Uh, but you you brought up this idea of baptism and the work of baptism in deliverance and how this was kind of a popular idea uh in the first century in the early church patristic period. Um I keep using the word patristic, a big highfalutin, fancy two dollar word for uh early church fathers. And everyone's got a different definition for what constitutes early, but I'll let Matthew kind of uh unpack the idea here. So let's let's start there. Matthew, tell us about um where where we're going today. Maybe, maybe just outline uh a couple of the subjects that we're gonna be kind of walking through as we discuss deliverance in the early church as it relates to baptism.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Absolutely. Yeah, well, I want to talk today about how the early church understood baptism as deliverance, as a liberation, a freedom from the powers of darkness, and just what the church today might do to um recover this tradition. Um now, uh certain traditions, the more liturgical traditions, um, still maintain a lot of the elements that we find in the early church, um, plus some. Um, but um, but there I I even think there, there, there there could be a call to um to recover some of the way we think about about baptism um and and just the what Jesus is doing in that act of baptism and how it's just so essential to us walking in the freedom that He's uh paid for us uh to uh to walk in at the cross. So um so we're gonna be looking at some biblical foundations that connect um baptism, deliverance, and really just a broader understanding of conversion. Um what did can what did this idea of conversion look like in the early church and how that included and related to baptism and deliverance? And then we're gonna look at some major voices, um, particularly in Western Christianity in the early church. And when I say, first of all, when I say early church, we're looking at kind of the the second through the fifth centuries here. That's where we're camping out today. Um and then when I say Western Christianity, I mean uh Christianity that was really west of the Middle East, you know. So this is gonna include, of course, Rome, a lot of Europe, um the northern tip of Africa, where uh the the church in the west was um um um in North Africa very uh uh what will camp out on a lot of uh or the main voices will be from that North African, what would be modern day um Algeria that's um currently Muslim dominated today, but was a thriving center of Christianity um in those early centuries of the church. So we're gonna talk about um Tertullian, Cyprian, Augustine, um, how they understood baptism as both as both a cleansing of sin and a liberation from Satan's power. And so um we're we're looking at considering what these historical insights would, what they might mean for the church today and what that would look like practically, even liturgically in in less liturgical traditions, how if if you know, if you're walking away today saying, I'm a I'm a pastor or I'm on staff at a church, or I'm just I'm interested in this topic, I go to a church, I'm interested in this topic, thinking about ways that this can really um be effective in helping bring Christ liberating power to the church today.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Now, Matthew, when you say um conversion, baptism, uh as part of the conversion process, like I think of conversion as the moment when I was 15 years old and I prayed to give my life to Jesus. Um, that's not necessarily what you mean when you use the word conversion. Could you define that a little bit more for uh, you know, most Protestants today, they think of like, oh, you believe and you could go find some water and get baptized. You should baptize people right away, kind of thing. Uh, what do you mean when you say this? Uh, especially when it comes to the writings of the early church fathers, how should we interpret what they mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Right. I think what uh maybe a way to frame it, um, which I ought to define too, is Christian initiation. So, what does it look like to be initiated into salvation and the Christian faith? Okay, that's in a real basic sense what I mean. What are the beginning steps to becoming a Christian? And so when it came to the early church, conversion, um, it included a number of things. I mean, I think um you look at you read Augustine's Confessions, um, Augustine of Hippo, fourth and fifth century church father in North Africa. Um, he's written this what's been dubbed as uh termed as a spiritual autobiography, um, and it talks about his conversion experience. And his conversion, I mean, it's I mean, he starts from like when he was a baby, but really when we get to terms of conversion, it means what were the moments leading up to my faith in Christ as Lord and Savior? Um, that moment of decision to make Jesus my Lord and Savior, but also how the early church they would they would how they would instruct these new believers and inquirers, these people that were curious, like from the point of, hey, I want to hear more about Jesus to the point of I'm ready to follow Jesus, to the point of, okay, now let's get you ready for baptism and all the rites and rituals that are involved in being joined to the church. So um, and because in the early church it it was a it was a process. Um and um every every moment of the process was essential and integral. Um so I hope that's helpful. But uh we think about in terms of Christian initiation, how am I getting initiated into the faith? How am I getting joined to Jesus and to his body, the church? Um that's in a nutshell what I'm mean when I say conversion.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

So if if I were to use just Protestant language trying to make sense, because in some sense, what we're doing is we're we're using ancient vocabulary, um, but we still have kind of modern theological structures. So I can say at the moment someone believes they were regenerated, they were justified, right? Like God did a work in their heart, a spirit breathed on this thing, and now they're alive, right? They were dead, now they're alive. But in that same sense, um that is not necessarily the beginning of conversion. That that's maybe the beginning of conversion in the patristic view, but it's not necessarily the wholeness of conversion. So for the Protestant um who may be using conversion and regeneration or being born again as synonyms, we would just say, look, yes, that conversion, that that regeneration process happened the moment you believe. But in the patristic understanding, conversion was a more broad approach and it involved kind of early discipleship initiation sort of processes, um, which would include catechesis, baptism, those sorts of things. Is that is that a fair summary that you think?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

I think so. I think I I think I just add to that for with a Protestant understanding, because I want to look at how did the Reformers they they read the Church Fathers, like the like them reading the church fathers was a big reason for the Reformation. You know, it was like, oh wow, we're going back to uh we're going back to Hebrew and Greek in the Bible, but we're also going back to these early church fathers and how they understood salvation, baptism, the sacraments, the Christian life, all of those things. So a reformed way to look at it would say, like, yeah, yeah, yes, we've got um, we've got regeneration, we've got that moment of I put my faith, I'm justified by faith. Um, but the sacraments, like being catechized or being instructed, and then being baptized, um, and then those those were all, I mean, you got the sacrament, and then take partaking of the Lord's Supper, those were signs and seals of the work of the Holy Spirit. So it's like a sealing of the work. So uh I would say how the how the reformers would read these church fathers would say, This is the consummation of conversion and salvation included something much broader than the moment I said, Yes, Jesus, I want to follow you. Um it it it that was that was absolutely essential, but it also was a broader the consummation of it occurred through this whole conversion process that included baptism and all the rites of initiation into the church associated with that.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

That reminds me of like Jewish marriage, right? Like when someone they they write up a contract uh before any ceremony has taken place. And in a sense, that that betrothal is viewed as a marriage, even though those things have not formally taken place in a ceremony. But like even after that contract has been written, you can have a ceremony, and and that's part of that marriage, but then also there is this uh uh consummation of the marriage, which is another step in that marriage process. So it's like all of it is wedding, uh, all of it is marriage. Um, but it's like uh viewed as multiple seals, if you will, of that that same act, which uh again makes sense to me. Um okay, uh Miller, you it sounded like you wanted to jump in and say something as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Well, no, I actually Josh, I was thinking the same thing. It's sounds like marriage. Um there is the vows that you make when you commit to one another, there's the proposal first, then the vows, and then you consummate, and that is sort of the the final act to bringing about a marriage. Um I mean, then there's all the the life that you have afterwards as a married couple, which is the life we have in the body of Christ, uh, now being married to Christ and a part of his uh global body. That's pretty awesome. I I like that language and it makes sense. Um so talk to us about um how did the early church consider baptism? What was the the markers in scripture? How were the apostles thinking about that baptism as part of that process?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, I nohead, Doc. Oh no, I was just gonna say, like, uh yeah, early church would be the apostles and their teachings. I know that's one of the things that you wanted to lay out was that biblical standard, but Miller had just referenced that, so I I'd cut him off.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

No, very important. Again, when we say early church, we're thinking early century, early, you know, first five or six centuries of Christianity. I mean, like I come from the Pentecostal charismatic world, and I'd tell people like I'm studying, you know, early church and church fathers. So, like, oh, so you're like reading the book of Acts. I'm like, well, yes, I'm reading the book of Acts, but like I'm going, you know, 500 years into history as well. So um, so you know, I do want to start just like with with the apostles. Like, how did how do they conceive of of you know conversion? And again, this uh um maybe kind of a Protestant way of viewing the Father's view of viewing scripture, you know, going through a few different lenses here. Um but uh we look at Colossians 1.3 that like converting or turning to Jesus included a a sense of deliverance, of freedom from the powers of Satan. I mean, this is Colossians 1.3, one of my favorite verses, says he has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And so you got a lot going on here. That there's that coming into the kingdom of God, it meant coming out of the dominion of darkness, you know, just like the Israelites that came out of Egypt into the wilderness, um crossing the Red Sea, um, which we'll we'll come back to that image um multiple times today. But um, you got a lot of things going on. We're transferred from one kingdom to another, we have redemption, we've been bought out of slavery, we have the forgiveness of sins, and and again, we're delivered from a dominion of Satan um from darkness. Um so the the early church too, the church fathers, they look at the apostles, they look at the writings of the apostles and um uh in the book of Acts as well, and that how does conversion included baptism. Okay, so um Acts chapter 2, you know, Peter is you know preaches his famous sermon at Pentecost, and they get cut to the heart. What do we do to be saved is really important. What do we do to be saved? Um we because we get the word salvation, repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So baptism was key. And what was really important to at that, you know, it's just amazing in Acts chapter 2 because you have the Holy Spirit being poured out, the gift of tongues coming on the 120 that were praying in the room, and 3,000 were added to the nut that their number in that day. But it's very it's it's explicit to mention that they were baptized, that they were dunked in water, that that was an essential element of their initiation into the Christian faith. Um, and so that and that's how the church fathers viewed it. They're like, this is why conversion, because we look at biblically, um, conversion didn't just include a moment of saying, Yes, Jesus, you're my Lord and Savior. No, it absolutely and necessarily included baptism as a as a as a consummation of your of your um joining to Christ.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

So um you're not saying that um the person baptism itself was what saved them. You're saying that this was it was unthinkable to be an unbaptized Christian taking community communion together with the rest of the body of Christ. That baptism was in an essential part of the conversion process.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Absolutely. And you know, but I mean, if you get an honest look at the church fathers, that's that's an issue that comes up in this whole discussion too, is salvation or that baptism, it was it was a means of receiving the grace of God um unto salvation. So it's like it's I don't think they would say they would say that baptism is incompl or salvation is incomplete without baptism. There's church fathers here. Um I just think we've got to look honestly, and we will look at some passages there when they say that that in baptism, what is happening, the cleansing of sin is happening in baptism, according to the church fathers. Um now we're looking at the apostles here, we're looking at how they understood it, but I think I think both in the first century and the New Testament authors, exactly what you said, the idea of an unbaptized Christian did not exist. Um it was if you are truly a follower of Jesus, you are going to be baptized. This is initiation and incorporation into Christ, the head and his body. Um now, again, there's different ways that the different denominations have interpreted what role does baptism have in conveying grace to the recipient. So that's a whole other thing here. Um some of you are gonna hear me like, is this guy a Roman Catholic? Is he Orthodox? I'm a I'm a Protestant, Pentecostal, you know, charismatic, um, that grew up Episcopalian, Anglican. And so there is some leaning I have in that direction towards a more um Church of England kind of that that branch of Reformed view of the of Scripture and the Church Fathers.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Um but um Yeah, Matthew, in all the time that I've known you, I've only known you as a Pentecostal. So I have known you since I don't know how how I met you pretty soon after you uh really committed to Christ, I think.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Um you've probably met me. No, you met me sometime. I mean, I I I really considered time I really surrendered my life to the Lord back in 2007, no, 2003 when I was in high school. So you met me after college, um, after I was in undergrad. So you probably met me when I was like 25. So like 15 years ago. I mean, you you probably met me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

I know you're from four years ago.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Um so so yeah, but I was very immersed in the Pentecostal charismatic world at that time. Um so anyway, a lot of a lot of caveats here. I know our audience, you know, um here is probably not from an Anglican or Roman Catholic background. I'm gonna sound like that when I talk, and so are the church fathers, just to be real. Um, and uh that may be you know a little biased way of just framing that.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

But um you don't have to apologize for any of that. I mean, here's the thing we we interview people on here that we disagree with all the time, and you're speaking as a patristic scholar who's saying this is just what the early church fathers said, like this is what they believed. And I think anyone who's got a fair reading of church history will understand that baptism was really integral to the salvation process. And and if you even look at Protestants, like the earliest Protestant in Luther, baptism was viewed that way. Like baptism wasn't just a an outward sign of an invisible grace necessarily. No, it conveyed that grace.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah, it conveyed the grace that it signified, and that's what's really key.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

All of us on this show, myself, Michael, Josh, uh, we've all become far more liturgical as we've gotten older and learned more about our faith. Um more we study the church fathers in particular, we see like beauty and uh truth. And so anyway, you're gonna we're a little bit more favorable to a lot of the things we're about to be reading, anyways.

unknown 20:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

I w when I baptized my kids, you know, I told them that baptism is both a sign and a symbol. Um, a symbol means something, a sign does something. So I I explained to my children something's happening in those waters, right? Now I'm gonna I'm just gonna hang out in the camp of mystery for a lot of this because people go, what exactly is happening in the water? And I go, I don't I don't know, like something like it's a means of grace, I'm convinced, that something is is being given to the saints. There's a power that's working there. We're gonna be talking about some of the deliverance pieces that seem to be connected to that work. Um, but something something substantive is happening. Matthew, we got you distracted. We did Colossians 1, we talked about Acts 2. Uh, you know, be baptized right for the forgiveness of your sins. This it's in the creed, it's a direct lift out of Acts chapter 2. One baptism for the forgiveness of sins, uh resurrection of the dead, eternal judgment, that kind of thing. Uh walk us through uh Acts eight.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah, so in Acts eight, we see a real connection between baptism and deliverance. This is one example. Um, so Philip goes down to Samaria, he's preaching the gospel, and in verse seven, um it's well, it's a lot of signs are happening. Uh verse seven of Acts eight says, For unclean spirits crying out with a loud voice came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. Um so again, we've got healing there as well. So there was much joy in that city. And then verse 12, but when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. So the signs and wonders of deliverance, of healing, were um accompanying the preaching of the gospel. But the conversion, like that's it's like they were included. There was, and this is the reason this is important is because the church fathers still take a verse like uh I'm I'm not saying they directly quote Acts 8, but just ideas that we see conveyed in Acts 8 that when people came to Christ, if they had demonic oppression, it was dealt with right then. And the culmination of that, they didn't just say, okay, now the demons out, now go, you know, serve Jesus. Like, no, we got to get you baptized, you know. If you're gonna believe, it says when they believed Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God, they were baptized. And so um there was there again, and you know, just kind of looking at the complete New Testament now, a little zooming out a little bit, okay, they were delivered, they were baptized, and then Paul is talking about our salvation as a transfer from the dominion of Satan to the dominion of Christ. Um we see that 1 Corinthians chapter 10. Well, we see this image, and I want to share this one because it comes up a lot with these other fathers like uh um Cyprian and Augustine that we're gonna bring up, is it uh 1 Corinthians 10, 1 through 4, Paul is saying, I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud. Now he's talking about the Israelites here, um, going through um coming out of Egypt. They all passed through the sea, the Red Sea. All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, all drank the same spiritual drink. So, what's happening here is Paul is making a typology here. He's making, he's saying, okay, what we saw with Moses leading Israelites out of Egypt from that dominion of Pharaoh, they passed through the Red Sea, and they came into, and they were baptized, uh, they were in a sense baptized into Moses, the cloud and the sea. In that, in the same way the Israelites were transferred from that dominion of Pharaoh, passed through the waters of the Red Sea into the kingdom and the worship of the Lord of Yahweh. So as Christians, we're we're brought out of the dominion of Satan, come through the waters of baptism, and we're trying, and we come into we're baptized not into Moses, but into Christ, and to his and not into a cloud, but into the spirit of God. They were eating the same spiritual food. The Israelites ate manna, we eat the Lord's Supper. So there's just a lot of parallels and typologies that he's making here. And the church fathers, they'll take this up, they'll take this verse here, 1 Corinthians 10, as they talk about baptism, to say, this, look, when you're baptized, you were delivered from Satan. Savan Satan's power is is is um broken off of your life um in baptism. And so we'll see that theme come up a lot. Um I think I think we can move on to church history, too.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Sure. And maybe it's church history where you'll answer this more so. But when you say Satan's power is broken off in baptism, what does that mean? Um in what way was Satan's power broken? In what way were you transferred out? Like um some would mean all demons are now gone after you've been baptized? Um some would mean your sins are now in your struggle with sin has now been defeated. Uh what to in what area of Satan's dominion uh or all of it? Um just curious. I'm just throwing this out. There's a blanket question.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yeah, that's good. And you know, I can't like pull out verses on on that for or specific passages from the church fathers, but what I gather from what from what I have for today and what I've whatever what what I recall is that you know it was really common in the early church to associate certain sins with certain demons. And so it's like if um, so I mean, just generally, baptism for the church fathers, it was a cleansing of sin and it was a deliverance from the power of sin. Where sin is no longer Lord and master over us. Does that mean we won't have temptation? Does that mean we won't struggle with sin at some degree or level? No, it doesn't, but it means that sin is no longer our master and our Lord. Um, and this is just their their reflections on Romans um chapter six and seven, where Paul says, sin shall no longer have dominion over you, um, for you're not under law, you're under grace, that you are now slaves to righteousness and not slaves to sin. So um so the church fathers, when that Satan's power over a person comes in through sin. And different different fathers will look at this differently, especially, you know, you've got some of the earlier fathers that are still Christianity is still very much in the context of a pagan Rome, um, where a lot of idolatrous practices are happening, um, which we'll get into in a little bit, but um where I mean, and um then as you get into Augustine later on, you know, in the fourth and fifth centuries, um where uh end of the fourth century, now Christianity is the official religion of the Roman Empire. There's still paganism around, but it's not um it's not at the same degree, and actually a lot of pagan rites and cults were outlawed by these Christian emperors. So it is they they do have kind of a slightly different understanding there. But my point is saying what it what does it mean that Satan's power is broken off of you or that you're delivered from the power of Satan, is that he's no longer the Lord of your life and you don't have to submit to him any longer. Um now I think they would also say, just in in light of the different rituals involved in baptism, which included a renunciation of Satan, which included um, which included an exorcism, which included a casting out of Satan. Is that um is it it's a being his lordship over your life and his oppression, the demonic oppression, is um that you're free. You're free from that. Um there's a lot of caveats that come in there because you do have issues of people that would sin and get demonized again and still need a deliverance after their baptism. But they're looking theologically or they're looking biblically and saying, look, the the root and foundation of our freedom in Christ is uh of our deliverance from the power of Satan, is it it occurs at that when you are baptized, it occurs. That is when Satan is drowned in the sea um and uh and washed away by the Spirit of God. So that's a long answer to your question.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

But if I were to make it analogously, because I mean if you're gonna use uh uh if a use 1 Corinthians 10, 1 through 4 as an example of ancient Israel being brought through the sea and delivered from Egypt out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God, and that's analogous, um, is it not also true that Israel, um, if they continue to violate the covenant, uh if they continue to uh break those commands, God will actually give them over to the false gods that they worship. He'll give them over to Raiah, he'll give them over to the Asheras, he'll give them over to Babylon. Um and I think that is consistent as well. So in the same sense that, hey, these are the people of God because of what he has done in that deliverance, it does not mean that those people do not then uh uh have no they no longer have any opportunity to resubjugate themselves underneath the domain of another power. Um so so you can say the same of Israel, they are truly God's people uh in the Old Testament sense while recognizing they can choose to be unfaithful to the covenant um and subjugate themselves and their children uh to other powers. In the same way, a believer in the new covenant who has been brought into not the uh you know the baptism of Moses or the baptism into Christ, but they too can resubjugate themselves. And and we we've got church father quotes uh that we've mentioned here on the show before that you've got here in your outline. Uh so I think that's a probably a fair analogous comparison. Again, I'm not quoting a church father who said that directly, uh, but as I've read uh I mean Tertullian's quote about the woman who went to the theater, I think it's pretty compelling. Uh I know you've got that in here. Um, and others that would seem to indicate they believe that. In fact, I only have uh found maybe one church father, uh I think might maybe I found two uh that even believed that uh Christians could not be demonized. It's extremely rare from what I understand. Um tristic scholar, you can you can shoot me down and I won't go bad if uh if that's the case. But uh it does seem to be the rare um uh exception for the rule rather than the rule itself.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

You want to walk us through some church history and or give commentary on any of that?

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah, um let's uh let's let's jump into church history here. So um we'll start with Tatarlian. He's he's not technically a church father, he'd be considered like an early church writer. Um he's uh he's not considered a saint in East or West, Catholic or Orthodox. Um however, he's uh no um no one denies the influence that he had on Western Christianity um his readings. So so other folks like that we'll go over in a minute, like uh Cyprian and Augustine, they were reading Tertullian. You know, they um and um so but um Tertullian um he lived in uh um from uh second century to early third century, 155-220 AD approximately. And so his um he has a treatise on baptism, and he's um really the earliest writing that we have that's devoted specifically to a breakdown of baptism. Um now, of course, in the New Testament and other folks we have mentions of baptism, but but Tertullian is the first one that says, I'm gonna write a treatise and I'm gonna call it on baptism. You know, it's gonna be on uh specifically about this. Um and it's it's written in response to controversies that were going on at the time of the necessity of baptism, of what is baptism doing. Um and um Tertullian, his big contribution, I think, uh into baptism, not just I think, I'm uh quoting other scholars on this, um, that uh um I don't know if we'll appear in the show notes here, but um a really good resource, by the way, if you want to, is uh Christianity in Roman Africa. Um goes through Tertullian, goes through Augustine, goes through Cyprian. Um I'm there's a lot of ideas I'm pulling from these guys um as well, and and and primary source references they've given. So um the it's that Tertullian, he's he's looking at baptism as a rejection of idolatry. You know, it's how he opens it. Um kind of makes me think of John Calvin. You know, you open the institutes, and it's just like the whole thing is like framed in the beginning from you know man's tendency towards idolatry, you know, and uh Tertulli is living in a in in that reality right now. So um in his time and location, infants in in the Roman Empire, they were dedicated to false gods in in the whole birth process. Um he has written here in uh his his treatise on on the soul, um a treat it's it's uh de anima in um in Latin. Um it's let's see, it's um it comes to pass that when all men are brought to birth with idolatry for the midwife, whilst the very wombs that bear them still bound with the phillets that have been wreathed before the idols, declare their offspring to be consecrated to demons. Okay, so still bound with the phillets that have been wreathed before the idols. So a sacrifice is happening in the midst of the of the birth, is what it sounds like is happening here. And they declare, they consecrate the infants to what Tertillian calls demons. His his interpretation of the gods, the pagan gods, where these are demons. And when they do these rites and rituals and dedicate their children, they're dedicating their children to Satan, basically. Um it says for in in uh they they invoke the aid of Lucina and Diana. Um a whole week that a table is spread in honor of Juno. On the last days, the fates of the horoscope are invoked, and then the infant's first step on the ground is sacred to the goddess Tatina. I mean, it's just like you got a whole pantheon here that's of demons that's involved, and and and in Tertrillian's mind, it's like this child is being demonized through these rites. Um, and that's so key for him because it's like when someone gets converted to Christianity, you know, it's like they have to renounce these gods, they have to renounce all agreement and allegiance to these gods and affirm their allegiance to Jesus Christ. So um his uh he's he's got he's got another now as as we mentioned earlier that even Christian. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Sorry to interrupt, I'll just say that's not all that different today in certain places in the world. You go to Costa Rica and people will often take their kids up to like on a little pilgrimage, a hike up to a statue called La Nagrita, which is like the Black Mary, and they will dedicate their children to Mary. And um, a lot of these kids end up being severely demonized as adults and will need deliverance. Right, right. That's right. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I have an interesting story of uh I'm gonna go more into later, but as in leading a guy to Jesus, college guy, you know, I could see a need for some deliverance that was going on there. Um, and I just I just felt like the Holy Spirit had me ask him, like, hey, you know, do you have any um any occult activity going on in your life or in your family? And he was like, Well, my dad is like, he's he's um, I don't remember what country in Africa his family was from, but his dad was like the priest in some kind of ancestral or African tri, you know, uh uh in the African tribe that his family is from, um, not a Christian kind of priest. Um, or uh, and so and I asked him, I'm like, have you were you you know dedicated to Satan or gods or ancestors? And he didn't know. And I just kind of felt the Holy Spirit to lead me to have him renounce allegiance and agreements to Satan and any kind of dedication that um any any kind of dedication to Satan that happened to him. Um as I'm leading him through those prayers, he starts like manifesting a demon in like in a big way. I mean, and he's a big dude. He's like pushing over tables, pushing over chairs. I'm like, hey no, and there's it's just me. It's it's we got one, we got a live one. So we got we got a lot, and I'm and I'm like, this is a men's retreat, like there's 20 other guys on the opposite side of the room. It's me and the demonized guy, you know, in the other corner. I'm like, help me! So um long story guy.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

So you kind of look like uh you kind of looked like uh the uh this guy right here uh who's freaking out. Uh oh yeah, we can talk about that guy. We'll have to talk about that later. Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Yeah, kind of I'm you in that photo freaking out. I'm you in that photo freaking out, you know. There you go. Um and so anyway, that's um that we'll maybe come back to that guy later.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

He uh that comes in because of of dedication, of child dedication. So how does how does Ertulian deal with people who have been dedicated to false gods? Obviously, he'll have them renounce these gods, you would you would say. Yeah, and that process looks like a formal process of do you renounce the devil in his words? And you know, do you you know commit yourself to living a life of repentance? And you know, we've got some of those ancient prayers uh-ish uh when it comes to some of those renunciation processes. Um, but how does how does Tertrillian handle that?

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Yeah, no, that's good. Well, for him, it was a preparation for baptism. And again, he he saw baptism as the way to break these these allegiances to these demons. Um and he he's he's saying in his treatise on baptism, he's like, look, in these pagan rites, they're initiated through water. Like even they understand the spiritual significance of immersion, that you are initiated by water into these these uh pagan and uh pagan cults and rites. Um so how much more, he's saying it in uh on his treatise on baptism, um, how much more in baptism are we initiated into Christ and dedicated unto him? And um, and I would I'd say he'd see it as a joining too. Um but he he quotes this um uh this passage in 1 Corinthians 10 that we read earlier about the Israelites, Paul's typology here. The Israelites are coming out of the Red Sea, uh coming through the Red Sea out of Egypt. Um, and so Tertullian's saying here, the nations are set free from the world by means of water. He's talking about baptism. Um, and the devil, their old tyrant, they leave quite behind, overwhelmed in the water. In the same way that Pharaoh was drowned in the waters of the Red Sea, Tertullian is saying, in the same way Satan is overwhelmed and drowned, you know, washed out of your life in the waters of baptism. Um you're leaving him behind, you're leaving all of these false gods behind. And so, um, but there was a preparation for that for Tertullian. Now, in Tertullian, we don't see like him list a whole like um, you know, list of prayers, exact prayers that people said at baptism. We do see that later in other works, uh, in apostolic tradition and in uh Tertullian, uh, I'm sorry, in Cyprian and Augustine. Um, but he does mention preparation for baptism. He says in on baptism chapter 20 here, um, preparation for baptism. Those who are about to enter baptism ought to pray with repeated prayers, fasts, bendings of the knee, vigils all the night through, and with confession of all of all bygone sins, that they may express the meaning even of their baptism of John. They were baptized, says the scripture, confessing their own sins. So um he's like, let's pray, let's fast, let's confess our sins. Like that public confess that that verbal, audible confession of sins was important. And he's saying, Look, John the Baptist did the same thing. Says when they came to John to get baptized, they were confessing their sins. Um, we see that in the Tertullian doesn't quote this, but we see this again in in um Acts uh Acts 19, I believe it is, with them in Ephesus, that people were coming up, confessing their sins and burning their objects of wit witchcraft in a big public bonfire. So the the confession of sins was absolutely key to preparing a person to be cleansed from their sins in the waters of baptism. Um so that's Tertullian. Um we can jump on to Cyprian if it's okay with you guys, unless y'all want to ask a question or throw in a comment there. Okay. Um so Cyprian, he's a little late, he's a generation um after uh Tertullian. Um he lived in the years uh 200 to 258. He was a bishop in North Africa and he was um uh and he was martyred. Um his head was chopped off um because he refused. At that time, uh there are a big different persecutions broke out during the time of his leadership in the church. Um but um and the one that led to his martyrdom, um, well, all of them, that they Christians were forced to sacrifice to um to the Roman and to even to the local gods of their region. They had to swear, you know, uh sacrifice to images of the emperor, but also to these false gods. Um and again, Christianity at this time at this time was not the official religion of the Roman Empire. And so um a massive tragedy broke out during that time because a number of Christians ended up sacrificing to these false gods. Um and Cyprian had to clean up that mess, saying, Okay, if a Christian has you know uh participated in these pagan rites and willfully denied Jesus publicly, do we let them back in the church? Um so um, but Cyprian he refused. He was he was forced, he was and he was specifically targeted as a leader in the church. And um, and uh anyway, he refused to sacrifice to the um emperor and the false gods, and they chopped off his head and threw his body on the side of a road um in 258. So pretty intense. But um we get his ideas from baptism through a number of of pastoral letters and treatises written dealing with this controversy of what do we do with Christians who have who have committed apostasy by sacrificing to these false gods? How do we how do we reincorporate them into the church?

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Um but then there's also that these are people that threat of death, they denied Christ, sacrificed to other gods, committed idolatry, but then now that death is no longer being threatened, they want to come back to the church and be a part of the fellowship again. Do you think this is also part of the reason why the uh like what you see in Acts, they seem to be baptized right away, but as the as Christianity began to make its way into the pagan world, there does seem to be more of a a discipleship pro process uh leading people up to the baptism.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

This is why um I think I think you could say that. I mean it's you have different different texts give different time frames. Um in some some parts of the world you had people coming from, you know, if they said, Yes, I want to follow Jesus, I want to become Christian, they had a a catechesis process of instruction in the faith, sometimes for weeks, sometimes for months, sometimes for years. I mean, we look at the book, The Apostolic Tradition, and that um in the area that originated from, they had they took people through an initiation process of three years before they allowed them to get baptized. Um and I do think they fundamentally they wanted people to know what they're getting into. They wanted to know like This is, and and and they took baptism seriously. It's like when you get baptized, like this is it. You have pledged your allegiance to Jesus. Um and we do see in this time frame of Tertullian and Cyprian just a very rigorous understanding of that. That's like you didn't get to like commit adultery after that and just come back to the Lord's Supper. It's some churches would not let you back in at all. Um say you're may God have mercy on your soul. You know, you can fast and repent and weep and mourn outside the church, um, and may God have mercy on you. Um, other churches, the more lax churches, would say, We'll let you back in, but after a period of fruitful repentance for adultery or apostasy was huge. I mean, this is what what when I say apostasy, it's it's it's a denial of Jesus Christ publicly that is evidenced by sacrificing to other gods. So the early church took this so seriously. Um, so yeah, I think that the the process probably lengthened because they wanted people to know what they were getting into and they wanted people to really know, they wanted to know that people were serious. Because as as pastors as shepherds, they took that seriously. They're like, I'm initially, I'm I'm selling the whole church that this person is a should be included into Christ and into his church. And if I just let somebody in that isn't truly repentant and I baptize this person, like I've got to stand before God because I I I speak for this person in some in some degree. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah, it makes total sense, and it's kind of ironic considering people would uh prostasize for a lot less today. Um simply being uh you know, God didn't give me what I wanted, right? So there's there's yeah, and there's a lot worse things than that. But but keep you do see that happening.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Absolutely. Well, you know, again, we have Cyprian, he's continuing this connection between baptism and and and that seeing a need for exorcism for people as they come into the kingdom of God. Um, and he's he's open about this. He I mean he thinks that he calls baptism the water of regeneration. Again, church fathers are thinking of baptism as a means of receiving the grace of God, that it is your your your salvation and your conversion is not complete without baptism. And they they water of regeneration is a quote from Titus 3.5, um, the washing or the labor of regeneration and the renewal of the spirit. So in his mind, baptism, it's regeneration, it's second birth. You receive pardon of sins, you receive new life from the Holy Spirit. This is happening in baptism for Cyprian. Um, he also says that the Holy Spirit empowers us in that um um when we receive the spirit, we can now compel, he says, those unclean and erring spirits who have plunged themselves into human beings that they would that they have subdued to admit who they are by raining down upon them our threats. I love that he's just so dramatic in his language. We can, like we are driving them with harsh whips, cause them to withdraw. We can lay them down to die as they fight with us and they wail and howl as we gradually increase their punishment. We flay them with our kind of scourges and roast them as with fire. I mean, Syfra is like and he's he's he's talking about his own conversion at this point. He's like, look, you know, when we come out of this this pagan world that we've been living in, um, not only are we free from these these fallen gods, these these these demons, now we have authority over them. And when we are bringing people into the faith, we're bringing people into uh to Christ, we are rebuking and and driving these demons out of people. Um so it's it's in Cyprian and his letters. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Yeah, let me ask. Um Cyprian's quote here about compelling unclean and evil spirits, is that in relationship to baptism? Or is that just a separate thought that he has? Um Yeah, it's not clear. Is it connected? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

It's not clear. So um this is uh a letter called Ad Donatus to a guy named Donatus, and he's kind of just telling about his a bit about his own life, but just about the about conversion in general. So he he does mention it right after talking about baptism in a water, the water is the water of regeneration and receiving the spirit. I think more broadly he's saying here's what the Holy Spirit empowers us to do. But he's also thinking in baptism, you know, in the early church, they baptized them, but then they laid hands on them in that moment to invoke the Holy Spirit to come upon them. So for Turtle for Tertolin, too, um, but for Cyprian, it's when you get baptized and initiated into the church, you are receiving the Holy Spirit when we lay hands on you and pray for him to come. Um so, but I also connected there because what we'll see in his other letters that that baptism included a rite of exorcism, um, it included a renunciation of Satan on the on the part of the person being baptized, and it included the the bishop or the church leader laying hands on the person and commanding the spirits to go. So um I can't help but see the connection, but I don't want to force something that the prince's not doing in this particular letter.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

That's called honest scholarship, everybody. You saw it here first. Um let's uh let's let's walk through those uh seven steps of the baptismal right, even though I'm gonna be a stickler and say I see eight points here, but I don't know. Uh seven or eight, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

You know, I put I started numbering and uh um I don't know if this is if I I I put seven. I'm like, is this my numbering? Because I've I'm you know looking at my sources here, looking at you know, Dr.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Burns and Jensen here, looking at uh Josh's um judgment on this dyslexic. So numbers get moved around. Uh like every time it takes a B, you mean it's an eight.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

I'll I'll have I'll have you know the show notes today. That's a capital B Josh baptism. Okay, yeah, I know. Seven stages of baptism. I see eight points that are numbered. So okay, Matt.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Walk us that's a Balk us through the capital B Josh.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Walk us through the seven as you see them.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Okay, seven as I see them. Okay, so we're talking about baptism. We've talked about the preparation, um, then and which they've already done at this point. They're typically during um they spend weeks um um preparing for this, they're they're receiving instruction, um, they're they're um confessing their sins. Um, and um, and actually, I don't remember if it's at this point, um within that. I think I'm thinking about the apostolic tradition, um, which is a different text. It's saying that they're daily going through some exorcisms um for like 40 days during Lent. Um but as far as the actual rite of baptism, like we're on, we're coming up, Easter is coming, which was a common day for people to be baptized. Um we're in that final week of holy week, and here's what's here's here's the process of baptism. It first involved an exorcism. So again, remember Cyprian is not in a in a world where Christianity is mainstream or and it's not the official religion of the Roman Empire. He's surrounded by idolatrous trim temples. You know, you go to the you go to the market down the road, you go to the mall, the outdoor malls of that day. I mean, you've got idols and statues right there. Um you've got um you've got people kissing them and bowing down to them as they walk by. You've got the guy selling, you know, selling carne asada, you know, there on the side of the road, and then you know, uh, a temple to um Diana or Isis or whoever, you know, um right next to him. It's the meat is being sacrificed and dedicated right there in the meat market. You got incense, you know, um happening. Um and you can and you can buy little idols everywhere. I mean, that's that's it's kind of like going to the Renaissance sphere here in Texas, if anyone has ever been. Um, did I say that out loud? Um, I guess I just did. But um no one's laughing, so maybe I'll do go every year, Matthew. I don't, I don't. I have friends that do though. I've been like maybe three times. I am nerd alert, I have dressed up in the breath post there. But uh you could find similar things. I'm like, there are a bunch of pagans here, but you know they need Jesus, and so um you gotta love people wherever you are. Anyway, so um, and the mindset of Cyprian and and of the church at that time is like you get demonized. If you walk if you're going in the street, for some for some like really hardcore people like Tertullians, like you look at that statue, you look at that thing for too long, like you're you're you're getting demonized, you know. Um if you if you buy the meat, you know, that's clearly been sacrificed to an idol, like it's you've you're inviting demons into your life. So um anyway, um, so this is the this is the world that he's in. So exorcism, that's why it was so important in Cyprian's time that that be part of the process. So um this exorcism was typically carried out by a clergy member um um assisted by the bishop. The bishop would be the main overseer of a region of churches, and a priest or you know, a maybe a local pastor, and then some other deacons and um would assist him in this. And it was performed repeatedly. Oh, here it is. He's it was performed repeatedly weeks leading up to baptism, but then it was culminated at the baptism itself. Um so first we have um an exorcism happening days leading up to the baptism. Then there's what's the step two, stage two, is the final renunciation of Satan. So the candidate for baptism comes up verbally, announce renounces, not announces, renounces Satan, the world in all forms of idolatry. Um and then uh and it's also this this renunciation, it's a vow not to participate in these things anymore. Um and so it's it's um that's that's very important part here. Again, yeah, Michael Miller, you you mentioned marriage earlier. It's like in marriage, you're making that decision like no other no other um you are you are the one, you are the spouse that I'm going to, and I'm I'm renouncing all affections and all um um all relations with any other other person but my spouse. Um that's how they viewed this thing here. So um during this renunciation, they renounced Satan, they'd recite the apostles' creed. Um, and and the viewpoint of Cyprian and the church that time was if you after your baptism, you participate in these idolatrous practices to the false gods, like you have violated your baptismal vows. Like that's why they took this so seriously. Um step three is the consecration of the water. So the the bishop would pray over the water, would ask the Holy Spirit to set it apart, um, um, to sanctify it, um, and then uh and then um and then the next step, step four, is the profession of faith. So um I feel like I already mentioned this, so sorry if I doubled up on this, but you've got the baptismal creed. So um you've got the apostles' creed or early forms and variations of what we know today as the apostles' creed, but it was affirmation in the triune God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and in the Holy Church. Um that's that's not like faith in the church in the same way we believe in God, but for the early church, it was I'm not just getting joined to Jesus here, I'm getting joined to his church, which is his body. Um, and that was really key. Um, step five was the actual immersion, and um um it could be a full immersion, or it could be you're stepping into water and water is poured on your head. Um, and they were typically baptized three times um name of the Father, name of the Son, name of the Holy Spirit. Um, they are they are immersed three times. Um so um next step is you're anointed with oil and hands are laid on you. So the bishop has already blessed this oil, holy anointing oil, blessed by the bishop. Umly $17.99 at our discount store that you can buy after the baptism. They didn't do that back then. They do we do it now, but they didn't do that back then. Um so oil that's been blessed by the bishop, and they saw that anointing of oil is it would it was a way of sanctifying the person to receive the Holy Spirit because now it's like now we're gonna lay hands on you and ask the Holy Spirit to come and fill you and come upon you. Um, and so that's in the belief of the church, that's when you receive the Holy Spirit. And then finally they'd seal you with the sign of the cross on your forehead, um, and uh and and say something like this, um, marking them as the elect of God. Uh uh uh sorry, they didn't say these words, but but it was signifying that they were marked as the elect of God and destined for eternal life, as uh Dr. Burns and Jensen say in their book. Um so those are the seven steps. Now the number eight that Josh sees there is now that the baptismal rite has been completed, you're now received into the Christian community. So they would do a uh a kiss of peace. You know, Paul says, you know, greet one another with a holy kiss. They they did it. I don't know if it was on the cheek or on the head or wherever, but they did a kiss of peace, and then they brought the newly baptized to receive the Lord's Supper at the Eucharist. And that was the first time, not only the first time that a new believer during that time would receive the Lord's Supper, but the first time they would actually witness the Lord's Supper being celebrated and received. They were not allowed to um they uh um in the early in the church in that day, it was a closed meeting. You could hear the sermon, you know, um, you could you could raise a hallelujah, you know, you could shout your hand, but then okay, now all the baptized were going to go into this back room and we're gonna celebrate the Lord's Supper with the baptized. Um, and so that's the whole process. My point in just laying this out is that the the exorcism that happened for weeks leading up to the baptism and then the final renunciation um was just really key. Um, what I don't have here, which we see in another work called the Apostolic Tradition, um, I feel like it's in Cyprian 2, so I don't know why I don't have these here, but anyway, uh it's definitely in the apostolic tradition where the priest is let is rebuking the demons and saying, Let all evil spirits depart now, you know. So it was it was a casting of demons that happened, a casting out of demons that happened prior to dunking in water. Um, and that's that was just so key as a regular rite for every single person that came into the faith to renounce Satan and to drive Satan out. Um and you know, scholars are interesting on this. You get scholars that look at this and say, well, you know, the early church, they kind of saw this as a drama act, they didn't really think this was really happening, but they thought it was kind of symbolic of what was happening or it was an important dramatic rite. I just I beg to differ on that. Um, and the reason I beg to differ on that is because you have from Tertullian, Cyprian, and Augustine references to exorcisms happening where demons were manifesting. Um I'll say this about Augustine. I know we're we're we're coming to the end of our time. We don't have to go through all of Augustine, because Augustine, you've got pretty much all of the same rites of baptism that included the exorcism renunciation. But Augustine, and so in a random sermon on Psalm 66, I just I came upon this reading Francis Young's book, A History of Exorcism and Catholic Christianity. And I mean, even this guy, he devotes one sentence to it. It's just like said in passing. And I'm like, this is a huge deal. You know, uh, this is this is not something we should be passing over. So in Augustine, you have all those same things, but then Augustine, and he's preaching on Psalm, uh uh doing an exposition of Psalm 66, and he talks about this fire of exorcism, and he says this. Um he's commenting on a verse from the Psalms on on we've passed through fire and water. And Augustine says, Therefore also in the mystic rites and in catechizing, instructing new beginners in the faith, and in exorcising, casting out demons, there is first used fire. For whence oft times do the unclean spirits cry out, I burn, if that is not fire. But after the fire of exorcism, we come to baptism, so that from fire to water, from water unto refreshment. Um, you know, and you may be listening to this now, you're just like, what is going on here? Um, I read this, I'm I I was just blown away. I came across this um when finishing my dissertation. I'm like, Augustine says in passing, hey, you know, when we baptize people and demons are crying out like, ah, I'm burning, you know, and and you know, or uh when we do the exorcism right before baptism, they cry out, I burn. He's like, that's that's what we're talking about here. And he he just says it in such passing as if people know what he's talking about. Like he doesn't have to stop and explain it. You know, um, you know, you can kind of tell the culture of a church you're in. You're in a Pentecostal church, and it's just someone references some person or something that Pentecostals do. And it's just like, you know, you you bring your your your Baptist cousin or your Anglican uncle in there, and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about when you talk about you know, Pentecostal running. You know, like that's kind of what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Like people get inslained in the spirit. Like a preacher, a preacher might reference, like, oh yeah, and I touched them, I prayed for them, and they just fell out in the Holy Ghost. Now, anyone who's not familiar with that tradition goes, What are you talking about? Um, and that's what we're reading when we're reading the story from Augustine, is he's saying, like, people are crying out in these baptismal waters because they're they're they're touching these these fires of torture. And and uh just yeah, as a matter of fact, everybody knows what I'm talking about because it was that common um in their in their experience, which is which is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

So as you tell for me, like this is a really big deal. And I'm trying, I feel like there was somewhere else I found another sermon I couldn't find. I was like this weekend, I was like, where is that other place where he mentions this? I couldn't find it, so this may be the only thing. But um, I haven't seen a lot of attention given to this, and maybe because he just says it in such passing, but it's it seems to me that I mean, um, you know, Augustine in City of God, he chronicles uh book 22 of City of God, one of his most famous works, he's chronicling all of these other um healing and and deliverance miracles that are happening to Christians. Um, he doesn't include baptism, but he includes just very dramatic manifestations of demons going on during these deliverance experiences. Um and so I I when I look at this kind of random passing comment that he says in Psalm, his exposition of Psalm 66, that's what's in my brain. Is Augustine has seen demons manifest many times, and he seems to be saying right here that we regularly see in the exorcism that precedes baptism, we're at that final rite, we're laying hands on him, telling Satan to go, right before we dunk him in the water, we hear the demons crying out, I burn, I burn. And so the demons come out with the fire of God, and then we clean we the person's soul is cleansed with the fire of God, the demons are driven out, and then we refresh them and renew them in the waters of baptism. Um it's just incredible to me. Um, what it's like what was going on in Augustine's church services? Um, it seems like people were getting delivered from Satan. That's what I'm saying here.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

So let me ask like practical questions here, because I think both Miller's service, Miller, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in both of our services when we do baptismals, we will have a person kind of walk through a pretty normal Anglican prayer of renunciation and affirmation. Uh, we'll have the church, you know, accept them into the body of believers to kind of oversee their development and uh mutual submission within the body. So the church commits to that. We have them renounce the devil, we we go through that whole process. I don't necessarily have them face the beast or whatever uh when they're doing that whole process. Um but but I'll have them do a renunciation. Uh I'm I'm curious how much of this you read and go, this would be good to implement. Um whether it'd be exactly, I mean, if if someone in my church grew up in a Christian household, I might not have you know the nine-year-old do 40 days of uh fasting and exorcism because they're not coming from a faithful culture, right? Um but if I knew someone was a part of the occult, like yeah, I might I might actually instruct them, but you know, uh not in a uh lording sort of way, but as a like common grace, like I think this would be wise for us to pray um and do some deliverance and inner healing leading up to baptism. Uh instruct them to do such. Um but but I'm curious, you know, even to the degree that you like bless the waters, you know, um as odd as it may seem, like I pray over my communion before I put it out every Sunday. Um I don't know I've never blessed water. Would it even matter? Like it I don't think the early church uh would view my blessing of the sacraments as legitimate, nor my blessing of the water as being legitimate because I'm not under uh bishop. Uh there's no apostolic succession that is taking place there. So I'm I'm curious, you know, you are a very high church uh continuist, right? Whether you want to call yourself a Pentecostal or charismatic, that's that's between you and the Lord. Uh but you believe I'm working that out right now, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're a very bad guy. How much of this do you think can and or should be uh and and that's really maybe the question. Not can is really uh kind of an up in the air thing. How much of this should we implement in our local assemblies uh as you see it uh you know, from scripture, from the the church tradition? What what do you think would benefit the body as it relates to baptism and deliverance?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

Yeah. Well, I think uh I think a big one or a few big things something I didn't talk about earlier was was called the scrutiny. And it was this this happened leading up to someone's baptism where they really sat down with these people and said, Okay, tell me about your interest in Jesus and in Christianity. Um Tell me about your life that you're living right now. Tell me about sins that you're involved in. I mean, like they just they they asked them. They asked them just very especially as second, third century went on, they they it was very rigorous and and not rigorous in the rigorous in the sense that it was long and and very specific things that they asked them. Um I think it's at a basic fundamental level, it's okay, people that are getting baptized, let's make sure like they understand what they're doing. Um now some might push back and say, well, you know, Acts chapter 2, they all were baptized in that day, you know. Um we do see that. We do see that in the New Testament. We see, and I'm I actually am I do not even though I'm very high church, I do naturally incline to, you know, in in the New Testament, we see we see baptism happening pretty quick. Um, but in the example of Philip and the and the eunuch, for example, in Acts chapter um eight or nine, I believe, um, that Philip doesn't just, you know, the guy's, you know, he's he has a whole discussion, theological discussion about Isaiah 53. And then the the Ethiopian eunuch is like, yes, I want to, I want to, why shouldn't I be baptized? And Philip is like, takes time to say, like, hold on. Like, do you really believe that Jesus is the Son of God? He took time to share the gospel, and he took time to make sure that this guy was serious about what he believed about Jesus. And so I think that at some level is important. Um, you know, it's just common in our more evangelical Pentecostals. I've I've seen this so many times. It's it's it's it's just, you know, hey, we're baptizing Jimmy today. Does anyone else want to be baptized? You know, raise your hand, come on down and be baptized. They never ask you, have you been baptized before? They never ask you, like, what do you believe about Jesus? They never ask you, like, why do you want to be baptized? A lot of times they don't even ask them their name for the love. And so it's just like, come on, folks, like, are we just trying to get, I'm getting a little spicy here, but are we just trying to get numbers in the newsletter to say we baptize 10 people today? Or are we actually making sure that people know what they're getting into? So that's the number one issue. And that that can look like a lot of things. That can look like a, you know, a four-week baptism class. That could look like a one-on-one meeting with the pastor the week before baptism Sunday, which is often how I would do it. Um, this would um it can look like a phone call. I don't know. You and your your team have to decide what that looks like, but you want to make sure that people know what they're getting into. That's number one. Number two, I think inclusion, including the renunciation of sin and Satan is key. Um now, what I, you know, when I was pastoring, um, I was an associate pastor and served in a lot of different pastoral roles. I was I I headed up the baptisms. And so what I would do is I would send people a form prior that just kind of said it was um um, you can use this in planning center. I'm getting real practical here. Just questions about like, hey, what do you why do you want to give your life to Jesus? Um, here's, you know, tell me about your testimony. And then it would have the Apostles' Creed. Um, and then it would have a little list of here's what, here's some prayers we're gonna take you through. And those prayers, I crafted them based on uh roughly in an Anglican um um episcopal version of of that renunciation, um, and and said, and I would give that to them beforehand and then I would call them on the phone and say, Hey, I would go through it with them. Do you have any questions about this? Um, and I I I you know I would I would talk to them um about their own testimony. And I mean I loved it because I could just I got to hear personal testimonies about from people I was about to dunk that next Sunday. Um but then I got to ask them doctrinal things. I got to I got to see um hey, do you have any questions about these prayers? Um and so but then in the actual act of baptism on baptism Sunday, I had it, I put it on the projector screen, I printed it out, I had the renunciation, and I led them through these prayers where they verbally renounced Satan. Um I think and then I would pray a prayer of of declaring Satan's dominion as is broken off of their lives. I don't remember actually I have somewhere I was looking for the file, I couldn't find it, it's on an old computer, but um that I I prayed over them to be freed from Satan. Um and then I would dunk them in the water um in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and then we lay hands on them. Um and over this kind of developed over time, this because I was in grad studies like digging up this stuff and the church fathers, and I was like, man, this would be so powerful to bring into the service. Um and so um um I I I think um the scrutiny, making sure they know what they're getting into, number one. Number two, including the renunciation prayers and and and and and and a prayer of deliverance before you dunk them, and then after they're dunked, lay hands on them. You know, you uh you're baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. You actually lay hands on them. God, fill them right now with your Holy Spirit. Your Holy Spirit come upon them right now, fill them up in the name of Jesus. Um so I say all those things, and I I just I guess I add in there too, is the way we preach about baptism, um, including not just limiting it to, but including the the delivering power of baptism in the way we talk about it to our congregations and to the person about to receive it. So I would preach a message on baptism that talks about those different scriptural images and what's happening in baptism, and I would include in that you're getting set free of the of the devil today. Um and then I'd go through everything else that I just mentioned there.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

Whew. Yeah, that's a lot, and I think it's good. I I know we've got to wrap up because I've got a a live Patreon that I've got to jump on for people who support the channel. Um after this, I'm doing a live QA over on Patreon. So if you want to jump on that, you can feel free to do so. Uh not you, Matt, you just the viewing audience. Uh right. So uh yeah, I'm I'm I've got to jump off of this. But I wanted to make sure that we ended with some kind of like, okay, what are some practical things we can learn and glean from church history? And I think that this is probably gonna need a part two, because you've got so much material we didn't cover today. Um but uh you know, some of the viewers may be asking, thinking, you know, what if I uh received a baptism and then later had a manifestation of demonic activity? We're not none of us on this program are denying that as a reality. In fact, Tertullian, who you mentioned earlier, would talk about believers who've been baptized and catechized and then later would uh you know backslide into you know seeing some immoral activity taking place at the theater um getting re-demonized. So none of us would would see that as like, oh, you're an invalid Christian, your baptism was you know illegitimate. Uh I don't think that would be something that would take place in the first century either. Only that um in the same only that baptism is powerful and is an important um component of in thinking of like deliverance. Like when I'm doing deliverance, I need to be thinking in terms of baptism. I need to be thinking in terms of has this person been transferred, have they been delivered, have they been washed um as a uh legal right kind of concept from thinking of someone's deliverance. Um so I think that's a super important thing. Miller, I I'm gonna give you some time to give some like closing thoughts, and the same thing for for Esquival. Anything I've said there or that you want to add.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:28

Uh I mean, I think the whole conversation is fascinating. I wish I had more time. It's like 12 15 a.m. here in in Germany. So I'm ready to get into the sag as well. But um, and I have a seven-month-old baby that's probably gonna wake me up in a couple of hours, so uh after I lay my head down. Um I I do think that there is something to be said about our current process of uh you use the word conversion, I would just simply call it discipling people into the the faith of the community. I think we're we're lacking quite a bit. Um at my church, we've included a lot of liturgical things because of that. Um but I I think that practice of baptism should definitely include exorcism leading up to it. When you read Hippolytus and what he has to say about the daily exorcisms as the day of their draw baptism draws near, it's like there's a reason they did this. Um you see Cyprian also talking about the person who was on their deathbed, and uh and um and they would baptize the the person on their sick bed in urgent necessity because of their sickness. It didn't make them go through the whole process, but then in the process of getting them baptized, they would get delivered from the evil spirits and they get healed, and they'd you know make the advance daily in their uh faith. Um and so there's a lot to be said there about uh deliverance in general as it leads to baptism, and I would say um it's no surprise to me that we see so many people uh apostasize, leave the faith. And I actually think part of the reason why is because we never got them delivered from the demons they brought with them into the faith. Um, so I don't know exactly what the statistic would be there, but I think it's a significant statistic, uh proportionately speaking, of those who leave the faith that never went through deliverance. So um yeah, I I'd be a strong advocate for it. And I'm thanking them for the work you've done here, Matthew, and thank you for coming on the show and talking to us about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:26

Yeah, sure. Matthew, uh I'll I'll do the same. If you've got any kind of closing thoughts we can wrap up with.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

Yeah, I mean, I think again, just let's look at what the scriptures say about salvation and what what that what that includes. I mean, it's connection to baptism, the importance of baptism in in conversion, um, and and just not I I just to me like looking at baptism really elevating our view of baptism and the power of Jesus and what he's doing in baptism. That's that's that's just a big heart of mine. Um is um, but also just for those that you know, I just as a pastor um and just as a Christian went through personally so much, and and it the enemy tries to accuse us day and night. Um and then I would and and and people I was pastoring and ministering to that you know were really struggling either with a certain sin or just just a demonic oppression, their baptism is something I I I can point them back to, I can point myself back to, you know, where it's just like I died that day. I was buried with Christ that day. And sin and Satan lost their dominion over me. Like that that is what Jesus did. And I want to I want to increase my faith and confidence in the in the in the delivering power of Jesus. And how and and and and I can point to a day where I got dunked in water, um, where it just and and and look biblically, it's saying what happened in that. Doesn't matter what I felt that day, it matters what the word of God says happened in that action. And so I just to everyone listening here, I hope this elevates your view of baptism, but I also hope it builds you up in your faith and the freedom that's been um purchased for you and also given to you that you received in baptism.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

Amen. Amen. Matthew, again, thanks for coming on again. Uh we'll we'll have to have you back on to do a part two. I know people in the comments are already down with that. So uh guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of RumNet Radio. We'll see you this Wednesday uh from 4 to 5 p.m. Central Standard Time. I'm gonna be answering one of the questions uh that came in through the comment section. And if you're out there and you've got questions for me, make sure to type out the word question uh and then you know uh ask your question. Put a colon at the end, question, colon, and then write out your question. That way I can find it on the back end of YouTube quite quickly because I'd like to be answering more videos, uh more questions my audience has from uh the comment section. Uh it helps me create some extra content for you guys. Uh uh guys, thank you so much for tuning in this episode, and we'll see you next week from four to five p.m. Mondays and Wednesdays. Peace out. See you next time.