Why Continuationists and Cessationists Keep Talking Past Each Other

Continuationists and cessationists spend a lot of time responding to one another, but how often is that response actually accurate? Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller explore the caricatures both sides fall into when talking about the gifts of the Spirit.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
Most debates about the gifts of the Spirit aren't really debates. They're two sides responding to a caricature of the other. Cessationists often get flattened as denying the supernatural altogether. Continuationists get painted as accepting any miracle claim with zero discernment. Neither one is a fair assessment, and in a body of Christ already low on trust, sloppy caricatures do real damage.

This isn't a conversation about one bad take or one public figure. Joshua and Michael zoom out to examine the broader habits that shape our theological debates. How should we define each other’s positions? What responsibility do we have to correct our own overstatements? And how can we strongly disagree while still representing one another truthfully?

The goal isn't to erase the real differences between continuationism and cessationism. Those differences matter, and this episode doesn't pretend otherwise. The goal is precision, humility, and the kind of Christian charity that's supposed to mark how believers disagree, because you can't fairly critique a position you haven't first tried to understand.

0:00 – Introduction
1:36 – Continuationism & Cessationism Defined
2:29 – Bethel Church Misdefinition
4:38 – Justin Peters Discussion
13:56 – Show Outline Overview
15:32 – Wesleyan Vs Reformed Roots
22:46 – God Told Me Providence
28:21 – Ordinary Vs Extraordinary Grace
40:11 – Suspicion Of Motives
56:02 – Judging Worst Not Best
1:00:26 – Destiny Image Concerns

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

World of Remnant Radio in this program where we'll be talking about why continuationists and cessationists misrepresent each other intentionally or unintentionally. It's gonna be an interesting program. You guys stay tuned. Hey guys, welcome back. Josh Lewis here. I'm here with my host, co-host, Michael Miller, uh over there in Denver, Colorado. Buddy, how are things going?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Good, man. Um, I've been home for about a I guess a week now. I mean a couple weeks, which has been nice, like you know, constant travel schedule. So I've been home with the kids, man. We went up to um Buena Vista last week, got to go to my old stomping grounds. I mean, I haven't stepped foot on Frontier Ranch, Young Life Camp in like 20 years. So I got to take my kids there, and that was super fun to do a tour. Um, they're hopefully gonna reopen that camp um in 2028. So those of you who are big Young Life fans, Young Life Camp Frontier Ranch, one of the premier, not the first, but like the biggest and the most famous uh camp was shut down since COVID. And so um thank God they're still gonna reopen it. Um, but a lot of work to be done. I think they're taking donations. If anybody's out there wants to restore my uh childhood memories there, please do so. Wonderful experience. It was actually um pretty, pretty sad, Josh, uh, to go through there and be like, man, kids are missing out on this experience. So one of my favorite ministries. I'm commenting way too much. That has nothing to do with the show topic today, but that's how I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Sounds good. Uh shameless plug for Young Life. Uh, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, I don't serve in any capacity and I miss it whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, uh Miller wishes he got kit back, uh, but he doesn't. Uh uh there's no no sponsorship relationship between us and Young Life. So today we're talking uh a little bit about continuationist and cessationist. If you don't know those terms, continuationists are those who believe that all of the supernatural spiritual gifts have continued. And cessationist, correct definition here, are those who believe that some of the apostolic sign gifts have continued. Uh that's going to be an internal definition there. Uh we don't acknowledge that there's a difference between apostolic sign gifts and spiritual gifts, since the Bible doesn't make that distinction. Uh, we've made that argument a dozen times. You can go back in the videos that we've done previously uh to make those argumentations. Um Paul says signs of apostle were done among you, and they were accompanied by signs, wonders, and miracles. So uh he distinguishes those two things, not the same thing. Dr. Sam Storms has got a great grammatical argument making in that case, but we won't do that here. Uh, the reason for the discussion is that I made a recent video about Bethel Church in Reading, California, asking the question, have they gone too far? Are they past the point of no return? And in that video, I defined cessationism incorrectly. In that video, I said, uh, cessationists are those who believe that the uh spiritual gifts have ceased. But that that was an overstatement. I got a little over my skis, uh, said it really quickly without uh thinking too deeply on it. Not a single cessationist would hold to that definition, and I agree that they don't hold to that definition. Um, they believe in the gift of teaching and leadership and administration and pastors. They they hold to spiritual gifts, they believe in them, but they see certain gifts as continuing to open the canon. Uh, for example, the gift of healing, uh, which I think I'm not putting words in all of their mouths, but I do believe a vast majority of them believe that the gift of healing should be able to be done on command if someone really had the gift of healing. And if they're going to do that gift on command, what it does is it gives attestation to the speaker, showing that their doctrine is trustworthy and true. Uh again, I'm I'm not going to make that argumentation. Uh additionally, they would say that the prophetic gifts, uh, if they are in fact speaking for God, requires, in some sense, for there to be an open canon because we should be adding to God's word because God is still speaking. Uh, again, I'm not going to make that argument. However, uh, the cessationists are going to argue why there are certain gifts that needed to be laid. Uh, Ephesians 2.20, apostles and prophets laid that foundation, but now the foundation is set. We no longer need those apostolic sign gifts. Others will argue uh that there's a cascade argument, that uh, well, we no longer have apostles. Um, we see throughout church history that the gifts have ceased, which is a false claim, it cannot be backed up. They'll say things like, hey, there were certain periods of times where gifts clustered around Moses and Elijah and Jesus and the apostles. Again, not something that is supported by scripture. Um, we've done so many uh videos uh debunking all these claims. Uh but I'm just trying to say, cessationism, one, is not a monolith, but I can say of cessationism, none of them would use the definition that I use, and I misrepresented cessationists. I didn't mean to. I'm sorry, guys. Please forgive me. Metacopa. Anyway, uh uh Justin Peters jumped in the comment section and was like, Josh, do better, buddy, do better. And he was right. I should have done better. But then Miller jumps in the comments and uh, you know, Miller, Miller can't see a guy that we debate with and and even when he's right, go, I'm just gonna leave it there.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Miller's gonna be like, uh-uh, you do it too. Uh Miller, do you wanna do you wanna unpack your comments?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

I mean, for me, it was like it was a bit of a fight pick to me, because it's like, come on, Justin, you know full well that cessationism does not exist in a monolith. That yes, Josh misrepresented it, but the fact is he does it all the time. And so I responded and said it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Josh misrepresents all the time. So Justin.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Yes. Yes. So I responded and was like, hey, look, uh the fact is it doesn't exist in a monolith. There is different forms of cessationism, and there has been throughout history. In fact, and I and I pointed out Ryan Denton's video that he did with us, um, which he talks about how the cessationism of today is not necessarily the cessationism of all of the reformers. In fact, it it does exist on a spectrum. And so I was like, you know, hey, no big deal though. We all do this because it does exist on a spectrum. There's a continuum here, it's not a monolith of this is the definition of cessationism. And Justin piped back and defended, and he was like, Hey, uh, I've never heard a cessationist say this. And I'm like, are you are you joking? And and then he also was like, and I've never written knowingly misrepresented a charismatic. And I'm like, dude, okay, all right, I'm gonna push back on this one as well. Um one, I said, if that's true that you can't see that you're that there's other definitions of cessationism, then that tells you you're in an echo chamber. Um number two, yes, you have misrepresented. Whether you knowingly do it or not, I have no idea. But the fact is, when you tell people that uh you know they should go empty out a hospital if they really have the gift of healing, well, they're misrepresenting what charismatics believe about healing. Um and we've said that multiple times on our show. But here's the thing it's like you get away with it by saying the word knowingly. It doesn't matter if you knowingly did it or unknowingly did it, the fact is you did it, and that still needs to be accounted for. Um, just like Josh is trying to account for his misrepresentation of what he believes to be the vast majority of cessationists. So all that say, uh, yeah, I did push back quite a bit on that one, picked a little bit of a fight, but it created a good conversation for us here today at the Ribnet Radio.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah, that's what people in the comment section are saying, Miller, get your hair cut. Josh, wear Miller's cut hair. Um I'm just scratching up with people being dumb.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Uh yeah, so here's the thing. I don't actually disagree with anything Justin said, and I think that Justin often is talking about word of faith guys, and probably um will at times accidentally just talk about the charismatic movement at large as if all charismatics hold to what the word of faith believe. We have to concede ground that so much of the charismatic movement has been affected by the word of faith movement, and their theology has seeped into even more orthodox Pentecostal charismatic spaces. So you'll have, you know, an Assemblies of God church who has a public statement on the word of faith. You know, they will deny word of faith teaching, Latterane movement, uh, way more orthodox in their position of the gift of healing or faith, those kinds of things. But then simultaneously within that church, if I go there and I speak and I'm praying for someone and I ask them, hey, I, you know, I prayed for your pain. How's your pain? Do you still have pain? And they go, Well, I'm claiming I'm healed in Jesus' name. And what they're doing is they're they've been fed into that lie of the Word of Faith system that says, if I acknowledge my physical ailment, that means I'm lacking in faith. I have to speak the truth, which is I've been healed by the stripes of the cross in Jesus on Calvary, and by his stripes I'm healed. So I'm just naming it and claiming it, even if I don't experience it, while ignoring the passages of scripture where it says Abraham recognized his body was good as dead, but did not sin, recognizing that his body was barren and he wasn't in sin because he still trusted God. You can acknowledge the truth and still trust God. But at times, this word of faith theology that means faith is psychological certainty has found its way into charismatic streams. So, you know, when Justin Peter speaks with a broad brush, you know, I I want to give some charity there, going, hey, I get it. I get what he's saying. Uh and I hope that part of what some of this dialogue can do when we talk about charismatics and cessationists misrepresenting each other is that we give each other a little bit longer of a leash. Um he's right to say, Josh, that's not what charismatics, that's not what cessationists believe. I I think he's right to say that because I don't know of a single cessationist who would have used that. But I also agree with Miller that cessationism agrees on a uh cessationism exists on a spectrum. And that there's there's a wide range. You've got your, hey, if any, if God ever spoke to anyone ever, that would open up the canon and we can't allow it. And there's a group over here that's like, well, you know, R.C. Sprawl had a childhood friend call him up in the middle of the night when he was trying to figure figure out whether he wanted to go pastor a local church or go to a seminary, or maybe he was picking between two seminaries. I don't remember the details. And his childhood friend called him up and said, Hey, uh, I had a dream last night. You're supposed to go to the school, and then essentially hangs up the phone and RC's like, Well, okay, Lord, I guess you're providentially leading me. Now we're over here as continuationist going, like, how did he how did he get that? You know, like who who told him? You know, who spoke to him? You know, like we're you know, kind of nudging.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

How did the providence work there?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah, yeah. Did God speak to him? I don't know. Um, you know, and then you've got other examples where Jeff Durbin adopts a kid who I think he had like spinal bifida or something like that, and he's he's still in the womb, and they're the the baby's about to be born, and they're gonna adopt this child when he comes out. And uh Jeff is just convinced that God's gonna heal this baby. And, you know, before they even adopt the baby, people in the church are like, hey, I think that's your baby, and and I think God says his name is gonna be Augustine, or I had a dream that his name was Augustine, or I think you should name him August. And his him and his wife had already talked about naming the baby Augustine, and he'd go by August. And then the baby is born and completely healed because Jeff had this moment of great confidence, and I don't say because, I think it's because of God, but in the in the midst of that, he tells his wife, Well, she she asked him, Are you ready to have this long, arduous life of caring for this sickly infant? And he goes, Yes, I am. But are you willing to like praise God if the baby comes out completely whole and healed? Again, I I'm doing this from memory, having listened to this story like five years ago. And the baby comes out completely healed. Um, but that my brother is a cessationist, and he he believes, yep, God can break in, he can heal, prophecies can take place. Doug Wilson's got a similar story about knowing something supernaturally about a woman in his congregation. These people would self-identify as cessationists. And some, again, over here, very closed. No, no gifts. Uh, another group over here, you know, God's sovereign. He breaks in, we live in a magical world, he can do whatever he wants. I find so much commonality with these guys. I feel find more commonality with those guys in their belief of spiritual gifts than I do with my hyper charismatic people who are like trying to break time codes and portals into heavens and courts of heaven and physics of heaven, which is all like borderline secretism. So, um, anyway, all that to say, yes, they exist on a spectrum. I understand Justin Peters saying what he said. I don't know. I I didn't take it personal. Anything you want to add into that before we kind of dive into this, Miller?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Uh I mean the only thing I took personal was his denial that he's ever misrepresented charismatics knowingly, uh, as if that somehow makes it okay. I'm like, dude, you do it unknowingly, just acknowledge it. Okay. That's about it.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah. Yeah, I I think it happens. I just think it happens with speech. Oh, it absolutely happens.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, if you're gonna criticize any movement, you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

The gift of healing is a case in point. You know, the the cessationist specific uh definition of gift of healing is almost always, almost always notice I say that, because I think it's exist uh exists on a spectrum cessationist, um, will see the gift of healing as on command. Uh whereas I don't know many charismatics, very, very few, except for maybe word of faith, that think the gift of healing is on command. Um and that's why the whole like, well, if you really have the gift of healing, go empty out the hospital rooms. No charismatic actually believes that. That's the problem there, is it's just it's it's misrepresenting. I mean the word of faith.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

I just word of faith categories who totally hold. Yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

I I hear you, I hear you. But we're we're we're making our own categories here. But you get definitely guys who believe that they have enough faith, they can do that.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

When he says that he's never knowingly done this, I'm like, dude, we've responded to you, we've literally done public videos where we mention that you're defining the gift of healing differently than a charismatic does. So it's like, I again, I in my mind, I I'm frustrated because I do think he lives in an echo chamber. Like I meant what I said there. I think that's actually true.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

That's it. Well, I think that we're gonna see throughout this program just variations uh of those sorts of things. You know, so we're gonna walk through here's here's a show outline a little bit here. We're gonna talk about one of the reasons that we misrepresent each other and misunderstand each other and sometimes speak past each other in this debate, um, comes from a couple of different grounds. Uh, I want to argue that it comes from different theological streams that continuationists and cessationists are in. The way that we read the scriptures, the way that we approach the text is very different. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about suspicion of motives, just the kind of underlying suspicions that can continuationists have towards cessationists and vice versa, um, and how some of those underlying suspicions affect the way that we think about one another and engage with one another. Um, so can uh uh motive is a big one. I think judging each other by our worst and not by our best is something that both sides are doing. Um I'm gonna talk about uh doctrinal um imprecision, um, again, talking about spectrums when it comes to uh cessationists and continuationists, in particular with church discipline. We'll talk about that a little bit. Um, we'll talk about uh experience and evidence versus a lack of experience. We'll talk about structural systems and ecclesiology, personal woundedness when it comes to both camps. Um, and then we'll talk about social media and how we typically take clips of the big bad moments and then we judge everyone based off of those things. So we we've got a big lineup for today's program, but we're gonna kind of um tiptoe through all of this as carefully as we can without stepping on too big of landmines. I'm gonna make an argument.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

We're not gonna finish all of that though. There's no way. We'll have to do a second episode. There's no way we're gonna each one of those. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Who knows? We'll move through it pretty quickly. I hope. I'll try. Um but feel free to chat it up as much as we want. I don't care how long it is. Um let's start with the first one. Theological streams. Here's something that's important. The continuationist often comes from a Wesleyan holiness movement. Now, most of you don't even recognize that. You're probably going to a non-denom charismatic church that believes in spiritual gifts, but you don't realize where your theological heritage is coming from. A good chunk of Pentecostalism that affected the charismatic movement, the charismatic movement that affected all these kind of evangelical spaces. A lot of them find their theological roots in a Wesleyan holiness tradition, a tradition that focuses a real ton on personal responsibility, holiness. It's Arminian by nature, uh, so personal choice, free will, those things are really highly valued. While the cessationist camp, again, by and large, speaking with painting with broad brushes here, hails from reformed traditions, which is going to be more Calvinistic in their soteriology. Uh, they're gonna have a higher view of God's sovereignty and the finished work of Christ. Now, again, not monoliths. I'm not arguing that cessationists don't hold to uh personal free will and personal responsibility. You still have a responsibility to choose, even if your nature is determining that sort of thing. Um, that would be more of a compatibilistic position, but neither here nor there. The continuationist is not going to ignore the sovereignty of God in the scriptures altogether. I'm just gonna say there's a different point of emphasis. And as it relates to those points of emphasis, uh, each individual is going to say, hey, look, this is your responsibility uh to pray for the sick, to go after those sorts of things. Well, the cessationist is like, ah, if it's God's will, uh, it might be that case. It doesn't mean that there's not proactive movement in both spaces. I just think that some of that cultural framing affects the way that we engage with the world around us. Um, talking about specific uh, you know, examples, we can go uh and unanswered prayers and hear healing. Charismatic pulpits will emphasize uh you have the uh uh uh you have to appropriate your healing of faith by can uh by confessing doubt and keep declaring your healing. Um again, this is gonna be some charismatic churches. Miller and I are not gonna hold to this, but some within that camp are going to make that case. You're already healed, you just have to appropriate it. Uh what that produces is the grounds that healing doesn't come to the sick or a person or their family quickly. Uh, it's ultimately their fault because they didn't have enough faith because they have something, hidden sin, some kind of wrongdoing, that they're not confessing some kind of doubt. Reformed and cessationist pulpits will emphasize God's sovereignty. Um may will your sickness. That might be something that God actually desires within his sovereign plan for your own, for his own glory, for your own sanctification, that sort of thing. Uh what that produces on the ground is charismatics uh look to the cessationist and go, Well, you're just um you're you're denying all of your personal responsibility. You're just saying, oh, if it's God's will, while not pressing actively to pursue spiritual gifts and earnestly desire prophecy, which is committed in scripture. And the cessationist looks over at the continuationist and says, Well, you just think that you're gonna get healed when you get all the ducks in a row. It's all your responsibility, it has nothing to do with God. Now, what is that? Those are the extreme sides of both sides of the aisle. They're going to be cessationists who pursue uh praying for the sick, they've got a sick member of their family, they pray for them every day to be healed. You're gonna have continuationists on this side of the camp who aren't holding to name it, claim it sort of healing. But you can see already how that kind of worldview and some of those theological mechanics downstream affect the way that we practice and affect our miscommunication with one another. Miller, anything that you'd want to add on that sort of thing? But there's other examples we could use too.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Yeah, I mean I I think I'd like to just acknowledge um from our perspective, we actually would criticize the charismatic camp that does think this, that thinks that you need to just claim it and get it. And the cessationist critique of charismatics that believe that, we would actually agree with. We think that view does damage to the faith of the person, it creates disillusionment, causing them to um be disappointed with something God has never actually promised, and therefore reject God for having a faulty expectation. Um so I I see the danger there on that side of it. I think on the other side of it, um, I would also criticize the cessationist who has a you know view in which you just need to endure and embrace the suffering as though all suffering is God's intent for your life. Um I just don't think that's true. If God, if the suffering, all of it, was God's intent for your life, then he would have never healed anything ever. Um but he did, which shows that this was not his will for that person um at that time. So I I think we would we would agree with the criticisms on both ends there. Um we're we're continuationists, we don't believe that it's a name it claim it thing. We do believe that God is often willing to heal, far more so uh than most people might even realize. And so we should expect God, but we should also embrace suffering as a tool in which God uses to sanctify us. So we're on both sides of the spectrum saying yes and amen to that.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

No, that's right. No, that's right. And I think that that's rooted in again a vision of already and not yet. Like when people ask me who is God, um, God's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And when I look at the end of the book and the beginning of the book, there is no sickness, there is no um uh death. Um, and when I look at the middle of the book, what I see is God treating sickness and death and those sorts of things as as an enemy to be conquered. Um, so the way that I look at that in this life is okay, I see the character and the nature of God uh who sees sickness and death as an enemy, but I recognize that the war is not over. Uh there's an already and not yet aspect where God gives us little tastes right now of the age to come, but my hope is not in this life. My hope is not in being healthy, wealthy, and blessed now, having all the prophetic revelation of where my life is going, how how history is going to unfold now. My hope and confidence is in the age to come, and I trust Jesus, no matter what, to keep me through till the end. Um, that's that's what I think a healthy balance is is one knowing the character of God, knowing that he breaks in, knowing that he can save me, he will save me, but even if he doesn't, and recognizing the life of a Christian, again, is painfully ordinary. I think where the hyper charismatic folks get off the rails. And I think paint, frankly, a bad target on everyone's back because of their excesses, is rooted in it's it's your it's your purpose and plan right now to have an over. Realize eschatology, all of the blessing, all of the goodness, you get it now. Um, I think that's the serious problem that we keep coming up against. And, you know, uh, right, wrong, or indifferent, I think we are more critical of continuationists who are out of bounds because I think it's creating division in the body of Christ. I think it's uh it's preventing us from locking arms with our cessationist brothers and sisters on the other side of the aisle because of the kind of the kind of level of doctrinal error. So uh again, oftentimes I am more likely to lock arms with a cessationist brother than I am a hyper-charismatic brother, um, which is which is a wild thing to say, but I believe it to be true.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Sure. Okay, so here's some other areas where we tend to uh typecast one another and disagree with one another. Um, the God told me versus uh wisdom and providence. So you've got a charismatic who will often say, Hey, God told me that I'm supposed to marry so-and-so, or God told me I'm supposed to work this job or move to this different city. Or, you know, they may even have language that's a little bit less uh um uh what's the word, direct, like maybe oh, I feel like God is leading me in this capacity, or I sense God leading me in this way. Whereas a cessationist, uh again, typecasting here, uh scripture doesn't work that way, right? You you use biblical wisdom, you weigh factors, and you trust providence in hindsight. So you just you know make decisions using good biblical wisdom, and then you'll know that you're on the path that God has for you. Uh and so oftentimes we're talking past each other here. Um, you know, God told me as a claim to revelation. Uh the cessationist is gonna think that a person saying God told me, they're gonna see that as you saying you're getting revelation that's on par with scripture. Um so it's sort of an uh inflated view of uh God's authority on prophetic revelation. That's a cessationist perspective uh when observing charismatics display that kind of practice. Um whereas the the continuationist perspective on cessationists is gonna be like, you know, you're just really a deist. You just think God sort of set the world in motion and that that's how that works. Now, neither side would actually, I mean, I at least from my perspective, neither side really believes that. I I think most uh cessationists that that have that sort of providence perspective, they're usually gonna be like more on the compatibilistic side, saying, Well, no, God's providence is involved in the free choices of mankind, and somehow uh it's a mystery where those two things meet. And I'd actually agree with them. I think God's providence and man's choices work together in ways that we can't quite figure out. Um, it's it's a mystery. Um, so I agree with them on that. And then on the other side of it, um, the charismatic who is saying God said God told me, I'd go, let's use other phrases like I sense this, but you don't always know for sure it's God until the other side of it. Um, sometimes you might have such direct revelation that it does give you indication, but no uh no continuations that I know would ever consider their revelation to be on par with scripture. Those who do, we don't call them charismatics, we call them cult leaders. Uh it's a totally different branch. Um, Josh, you want to got any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, no, I I think that when we run through this, again, these are all theological downstream of our theology. If you run downstream of theology, you can see, okay, this is why there's some disagreement. It has to do some somewhat with our core beliefs, our view of personal responsibility, our view of God's sovereignty, and then again, downstream of that, what how do we live in light of this? Uh the cessationists will say God's in control. In light of this, I go, Well, um, I can see his hand throughout my life. Uh, the continuationist, because of their theology, goes, Hey, I know that God is in control, so I'm asking him to lead, guide, and direct me in my steps. Not not leaning on my own understanding, but in all my ways, acknowledging him. He's gonna lead my path straight. Um, so you they have just different emphasises, and those different uh the different emphasis they place on those syllables uh affects the way that we kind of work downstream. This this actually happened, believe it or not, with the East and the West and the early schism and the split between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox. One group spoke Latin, the other speaking Greek. And that divide, that language divide, even changed and shaped their theology. Uh the theology of one was cataphatic theology, uh that's that's the West, defining God by what he is. Um, the East defined God through apathatic theology, which is defining God by what he was not. Even the language that they used shaped their theology in such a way that caused them to kind of split further and further apart. Um so I don't want to get into cataphatic and apathetic theology that feels like a rabbit trail. But but ultimately to say if you would even go and look at languages, I listened to a TED talk that was really interesting, where they described uh Spanish speakers and German speakers, and the nouns in those languages are are gendered typically. Not like in English, we don't have necessarily gendered nouns. Um we can, but we we don't typically. Uh but though they would say like a bridge, you know, you can use uh I think in Spanish it was masculine and in German it was feminine. And when they asked those speakers, Spanish speakers, to define uh the bridge if it was masculine, uh they would say, oh, it was strong and broad. And then when you asked the Germans to describe the same bridge, they would say it's long and elegant. It was funny because uh when you have a masculine noun, they described the bridge with masculine words, and when the the the the bridge was just uh had a feminine noun, it was described with feminine words uh in those cultures. So language even shapes the way that we think about the world around us. And I would just argue that theology, our core principles of theology downstream really affects the way that we grapple with things like healing, that we grapple with things like God's sovereignty, etc. So that's the the primary argumentation here. Um and I think it's the uh probably the number one reason we look past one another. Um Miller, do you want to move on?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

You mean to move on to suspicion of motive or um let's let's just I mean, honestly, I don't know if we're gonna get through all this, but let's let's describe one more big difference because it does cause us to talk past each other. Um I I I'd like to at least. You cool with that?

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Uh yes, I'm sorry, my mic is muted.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

I am. Okay, sure. Okay, so this has more to do with how we practice a church service or like an experience with God on one side versus a um a normative means of grace on the other. Um so you would say like uh at a charismatic church, they're gonna do altar calls, or they may call it activation or impartation of gifts. Um that's the kind of language that's being used in those services. And then on the other side of the cessationist side, they're gonna put an emphasis on the ordinary means of grace, the taking of communion, uh, baptism, um, trying to think of some of the other, you know, just reading your scripture, meditation, uh, being in the fellowship of the saints and in communion with one another. There's a number of ordinary means of grace that they would emphasize. So on the charismatic side, when they might finish up a church service or maybe a revival weekend, they're gonna perform some sort of altar call where they invite people up to uh experience God, have an encounter with God, and or maybe get a baptism of the spirit. Um, in certain Pentecostal circles, they would say, which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. Um and they're gonna they they want you to contend for these things, contend for the gifts, contend for the baptism of the spirit. On the other side, in the reformed world, cessationist world, um, they think that gifts, if they're ever out there, they're sovereignly given. Um, well, I let me rephrase that. They wouldn't necessarily say gifts are out there, but if you're gonna have those kinds of experience, it's gonna be sovereignly done. In the meantime, you you should never try to work yourself into this or contend for these kind of things. Uh, you just need to wait on the Lord. You need to wait on the Lord through word, through sacrament, and again, ordinary means of grace. So here they are gonna be talking behind each other completely. On the reform side, when they hear contending for more of the spirit, more of God, more gifts of the spirit, uh, they're gonna see that language as manipulating God into an action, um, some sort of magic formula. On the other end, the charismatic side here is just wait on the or uh uh wait on God, uh pursue the ordinary means of grace. They're gonna see that as quenching the spirit and an excuse for unuh not having faith, doubting God, and or just passivity. Um so it's the same question on both ends. Both of them have to do with pursuing more of God, but how they practice those things is gonna look massively different, and how they interpret those actions on each side uh is gonna be a massively different interpretation. Now, for well, Josh, I'll let you just kind of chime in on this because you and I don't necessarily agree with those charismatic practices. We also would say there's more out there than what the reformed uh world would encourage or the cessationist world would encourage, you and I both being pretty reformed.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

As always, you know, we are trying to, with Remnant, help people break outside of their theological echo chamber to think deeply and to glean from different church traditions that we think are right, even if they don't come from our tradition. Um, and I think that that has allowed us to um really grow a lot personally from learning from our brothers and sisters. Um, you know, a Church of Christ guy talked to us about the sacrament of the assembly and and how there's a grace that is present in the assembly when we're gathered together in a way that's not when I'm in my car praying. There's a there's a specialty when I listen to you know my Lutheran brothers talk about the the sacraments and the Anglican brothers about the when I take communion that uh there's some kind of grace, not saving grace, not um, but but there's a real presence that is present in that communion in Christ's spirit. It's mystical. I'm not defining it through transubstantiation, consubstantiation, but like there's something mystical going on. Um, you know, when I listen to uh again, these higher church traditions that talk about the waters of baptisms, again, I don't think baptism is saving you, but I think there's a means of grace that's present, the teaching of God's word, his you know, it's the power of God into salvation. Uh, when we will worship, his spirit inhabits the praise of his people. And over and over I realize that these normative means of grace where God has promised to meet his people, and that we should surround ourselves with those normative means of grace, that we should uh uh value those normative means as places God has promised to be and promised to meet us, while simultaneously acknowledging there are moments, supernatural moments, where God breaks in with extraordinary means, where God comes in and bestows upon his people supernatural power. He gives them gifts, the laying on of hands, there's a sudden, mighty rushing wind in the book of Acts. And Paul prays in Acts 4, and the place where they gathered together was shaken. And there's these moments where out of the ordinary sorts of things happen. But my hope is that in our assembly, we we so value the ordinary means of grace, we so esteem them so highly as places God has promised to meet us, that when those extraordinary means come, we honor them all the more. But I think what's happened is in at times we we only in the charismatic movement, and again I'm painting with a broad brush here, we only value those extraordinary means that we suddenly devalue. We we suddenly uh despise or uh treat with contempt uh those sacred and holy things, like the scriptures and the assembly and the sacraments, um, in such a way that it we rob ourselves of meeting places with God. So uh I think we're a both and community where we want to value uh the right um while also pushing for um uh you know that those those greater supernatural spontaneous kinds of encounters of the Lord. Uh we, Mueller and I would both never call people forward to you know receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We both believe that happens at the moment of conversion, um, while also acknowledging that there are subsequent encounters of the Holy Spirit that happen in a believer's life and can happen in a believer's life over and over. So we have we have a problem with that.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Yeah, there's a bit of irony because in some sense, if somebody was to typecast charismatics uh for constantly doing altar calls to get people baptized in the spirit and speak in tongues, we go, yeah, that's the vast majority of charismatics. I mean, it is, and it's a practice that you and I disagree with. We both believe that impartation takes place, that God does give new gifts or increase of gifts. Um, that laying on of hands doesn't necessarily only apply to the ordination. I think it can also apply to praying for the sick and to uh experiencing more of God and having experiences. Um, so I'm not necessarily in disagreement with the charismatic practice of doing an altar call to lay hands on people. I am in disagreement on the baptism of the spirit, second blessing theology that often goes behind it. I had different uh words to describe often what is a similar experience. Um, words that I I think are more biblically accurate. Um but it the funny thing is, Josh, you and I are both pretty sacramental. You you and I both recite from the Nicene Creed at our church. Uh we we see that as an important thing to do with our church, to teach some of the basic doctrines of our faith. You and I practice communion on the weekly. Um we we have our whole church do that together. Uh we have people stand up for the reading of the word and we teach the reading of the word, uh, teach the word that we read uh every week in our churches. So it's just funny because you know, our charismaticism is rather reformed-ish. And uh, if you if you saw it, um our services wouldn't necessarily look all that different for many reformed churches, with the exception that you and I got you and I include uh within our liturgy room for uh God to give prophetic revelation. We would include within our liturgy room to pray for the sick who are among us. Um and and the funny thing is in these ordinary means of grace that we practice throughout the week, we'll often see God do extraordinary things as well. So, like this last week, I just got a report that a man I prayed for a few weeks ago. He had um he asked for prayer for for healing. You know, the thing that he asked for prayer for wasn't healed that time. It might have been, because I'd met with him again yesterday. But um a couple weeks ago in praying for him, I did discern that there was a spirit there and cast something out of him. And found out yesterday that in doing so he was healed of something he wasn't even pursuing healing for. Uh, he had had, from the abuse of drugs, specifically hallucinogenics, had had demonic visions ever since then. And there's an actual physical uh term for it, I can't remember the name of it, I could probably find it. Um, where anytime he would close his eyes, he would just see all kinds of visions of dark things. And this is a medical condition. Uh I would say it's a demonic vision that he was having. Um, but after we prayed, those have disappeared entirely. Now, again, normative means of grace. We got together to pray. God showed up with some extraordinary means of grace, delivering him from an evil spirit and uh setting him free from these uh demonic visions that he was having on the regular. And so that that really kind of describes our practice of faith a lot more so. It is quite a blend of the two, doesn't it, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Well, I I think what's important, um here's a cliff note. Someone asked, Hey, where's that TED talk? I put it in the comment section, you can go watch it. Um the uh the what's really important here is I think people don't think the ordinary means work and only the extraordinary have the breakthrough. And I just I'll tell you that like man, I think those normative means, like the assembly, having brothers and sisters mourn with those who mourn, having us gather around and and show the scriptures to one another um to edify and encourage and get people's hope anchored in the future. Uh I think those ordinary means may be more important. I'm I'm I'm thinking out loud here. I think they may be more important.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

I just wouldn't prioritize them. I just say they're both part of our faith that we're we're told to pursue.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Here's the reason I I'm I'm I'm suspecting that that's more important because it anchors me in a way. Because here's the thing, if I never had the extraordinary, my faith is still rooted in those ordinary, right? Like my faith is still rooted in the hope for the future shown to me in the scripture. You know, seeing the the light of the gospel and the power of Christ in the saints uh of of the church, um, I I I I'm so rooted in that that even if you know he doesn't, even if he doesn't deliver me in this life, um, he will in the next, right? Like I just I have such great confidence because of this ordinary. So um that but again, that doesn't it's because of the ordinary, even that I'm pursuing the extraordinary. It's because of the scriptures that say, um And when I say ordinary, I don't mean natural.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

I'd I'd push back some Josh. Go ahead. You just need both. Uh the fact is, how many people do we know came to saving faith because of some sort of extraordinary grace?

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Very, very good point.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

It was what pushed them over the edge into believing. In fact, we would say that deliverance ministry was the primary means by which the Roman Empire was won to Christ.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Um a good chunk of the gospels record people who came to faith most of its power evangelism.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

I mean, the the very attestation to Jesus' supremacy, his uh kingdom came through extraordinary means of grace. And so while I'm I I'm just a both and I don't think one has to take priority over the other. I think we're called to to pursue them both, and it's not really my job to evaluate which one's more important. I think we need them both.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah, and I don't want a cessationist to hear that thinking that, like, okay, Miller thinks that prophecy is equal to scripture, one being ordinary. No, I I said already I didn't think that. Right, here we didn't say that. But I think uh what you're saying is in the life of a believer, he's not saying what takes precedent as much as which one takes uh it's not that one they're they're man one is a manifestation of the spirit, another one is God's spirit being breathed out the anastas. They're both a work of the spirit. I'm not gonna neglect one in light of the other. I think it's totally fine. Um let's talk about uh suspicion of motive because I didn't, you know, there's theology. There's the hey, I disagree with cessationists, cessationists disagree with cessation uh continuationist, and a good chunk of that isn't just doctrine. It's not just our theological camps are different, so we come to different conclusions. It's also uh because of our motives that we have. We we suspect the motives of the other going, hmm, I don't like what you're doing over there, and I'm going to assume the worst. I think a good chunk of this is rooted from the foundation of the Pentecostal movement at Azusa 1904. Um, big revival takes place, foundation of Pentecostalism. You got a group of people who can do the stuff, and they're typically, by and large, uneducated, not seminary trained. When I say uneducated, that's what I mean. Um, and then you've got uh, you know, these people who are uh out there who've been seminary trained, and they're throwing theological rocks. All the mainline denominations are saying, these guys are out of their mind, they're crazy, they're demonized, um, they're nuts. So those who are at Azusa were like, hey, we're these uneducated fishermen, just like Jesus' disciples, we can do this stuff. And here are a group of really educated guys who typecast them as the Pharisees, and suddenly everyone has figured out motive. The uh mainline denominations are looking at Pentecostalism and saying, hey, uh you guys are the false signs and wonders that were prophesied in the end times, and the Pentecostal movement's looking on the outside, going, Hey, you guys are the Pharisees that we see at Jesus warning us about, that little leaven. So what ends up happening when we start susp uh being suspect of one another's motives is that we start judging each other typically off of some of our worst, and we'll get into that in a moment. But you know, a lot of the cessationist movement is gonna look at the absolute worst guys out there, the Benny Hens, the Kenneth Copelands, the Creflow Dollars, uh, the Robert Hendersons. I mean, they're gonna they're gonna be looking at the really bad abuse of stuff and then typecasting the whole movement in light of that. And to some extent, there's there's some fairness again with some of that. And the Pentecostals are gonna be over here going, look, um I I am kind of heartbroken over this, and I'm not going to I'm not going to expect the best out of you because you're angry and you're mad. Um and there has been this really weird thing uh in the charismatic space that any calls of discernment, any anything that says, hey, this is this line, you crossed it doctrinally, you've gone too far. They go, oh, that's just hateful, that's mean, that's ugly. And I go, no, it's discernment. Like that's what the Bible commands us to do. So there's this really weird thing uh where we assume the wrong of each other's motives. And I can go through a few uh continuationist examples, or at least I'll tackle one, and I'll let Mill Miller tackle the other two that I've written down. Uh but I think that the charismatic just assumes of the cessationists that they want control. They want to be able to control the movement. Uh when a charismatic church member goes to a cessationist-leading church and shares a word, um, the pastor goes, Hey, you're not gonna share that in our assembly. They just assume, well, well, you are you're just afraid. You you want to keep control. You don't trust the Holy Spirit to lead us and to guide us because you're afraid this is gonna turn into fire tunnels, this is gonna turn into craziness and run around the church, you're afraid that a prophetic word's gonna be released, God's going to direct us in a way that you're not gonna be able to have uh a monopoly on uh in leading and guiding the direction of the church. So they're going to be suspicious of the uh cessationist as those who are just trying to manipulate um to quench the spirit in some sense, and we'll we'll tackle that in a moment as well. Um, but but I do think that there is some underlying assumptions that we have towards one another. We'll go through a few of the continuationist ones and then address some of the cessationist ones. Miller, you want to pick up those other two?

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah, sure. So there's another character that that oftentimes is given by uh uh continuationist critics of cessationism, uh, that they're just cold, dead academics. Um, you know, they'll they'll talk about their preaching. Um, well, that's not really preaching, that's just like a lecture given and Seminary. There's no like power behind it. There's no spirit behind it. So they'll see that as not really powerful. It's just head knowledge being regurgitated that can't actually transform lives. And so this is an accusation I would strongly disagree with. Because I think the teaching of scripture is preaching. You can get a little fiery, but I don't think that that suddenly stops becomes something that's not spirit-lived and spirit-inspired. I think the gift of teaching on its very own is a gift of the spirit, meaning that the ability for a person to get up and exposit the scriptures in a way that people actually understand them is a transformative work. It is a means of grace that God gives, no less, no more supernatural than the gift of healing. So it's interesting that that would be a criticism. Oftentimes charismatics will say stuff like, Well, you know, you're supposed to be spirit-led, not mind-led. And those sermons are just the mind. And it's not actually engaging the spirit. And I just don't think those things are mutually exclusive of one another. So I I'm going to disagree with the continuationist that says those kind of things. Another thing that the continuationist will say of the cessationist is you're just quenching the spirit. And so an accusation would be by not allowing prophecy to take place, you're quenching the spirit. And so here they're going to say that by despising prophecy, that you then quench the spirit, and because you're not going to allow that to take place in the church. I mean, when you despise prophecy, that's what Paul says is quenching the spirit. So I mean, Josh, do you want to push back on me on that at all? Because I actually think it's a pretty credible accusation.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

There's a difference, I think, between affect and a difference between motive. And I think this is where we actually have a hard time engaging with one another. The cessationist has a hard time engaging with us, we have a hard time engaging with them. When we begin to suspect the worst motive from the other, when a continuationist is going to a cessationist church or having coffee with their cessationist pastor friend, um, if their assumption in the back of their head is you actually just want control in your church. Um, you're just a brain on a stick, and you actually have the power of the spirit. Yeah, you've got the fear of man, like you're you're trying to quench the spirit. When you go into that, there's no fruitful dialogue that can happen. There's no there's no there's no certainly no leading your brother in Christ to a more accurate and truthful way, like Priscilla and Aquila did with Apollos. Because there's no there's no expectation of hope. Because if they just want to quench, if they just want to despise, if they just want to have control with their dead orthodoxy, are you gonna reason with a person like that? Are you going to contend? Are you gonna try to show them truthfully a more accurate way? I don't think that you will. And I think that when we assume the worst motive of our brothers and sisters, we don't have productive conversations and we end up misrepresenting them. I think the flip side is also true of the cessationists. Cessationists are going to assume certain things about continuationists at times. And I think those assumptions look like things like all of your miracle stories are fabrications. Um your miracle stories of uh healings, your stories of prophecies, your tongues and interpretation. All of those things uh are completely fabricated. And I know that you're lying because it's going to produce a powerful movement and see you as credible witnesses. At times they're going to think that it's uh connected to donations and money. You're trying to get rich off of this. Um I understand that they're going to believe that because they have a theological position that says this doesn't happen anymore. And then you get guys like John MacArthur who would say, and I quote, uh, and I've often said this, if these signs and wonders did exist, do you think that they would be given to people with this bad theology? Now, he says pretty broadly of the movement. He then goes on to define like Benny Henn and Ketha Copeland. So maybe he's not speaking of the whole movement, but I think he is. Regardless, John MacArthur and many others are going to say, hey, uh, these miracles can't happen. They certainly aren't happening among you. And if you're claiming that they are, I'm going to assume that you have a motive of manipulating people for your own personal selfish gain. Uh they will say this is driven, again, by a suspicion of donations. And they're not wrong to assume that in some spaces because you've got guys like Kenneth Copeland, you've got guys like Jesse Duplantis, you've got guys like Creflo Dollar who are saying things like, hey, if you really want to get healed, you need to sow your seed. So, like, certainly in those contexts, they're not wrong that it looks like there's an appearance of motive because you're judging someone based off of their actions. And when they begin to show you who they are, you should believe them. Um but there's also uh a suspicion in uh cessationist circles of continuationist use of music and worship uh and even preaching, that they're trying to lather people up to an emotional state where they don't have discernment. Now, I think that's effect in the same way that me and Miller would look at uh 1 Thessalonians quenching the spirit, and we go, I actually think you might be quenching the spirit. I don't think it's your motive. I don't think that's what you're trying to do. I think you're trying to be faithful to the scriptures, but as you understand them, those gifts have ceased. I think what is the effect is that you're quenching the spirit. I don't think the motive, I mean I don't know that I've I've met a single charismatic who's like, you know what I want to do? Um I want to lather someone up emotionally. I want to really get them in a real tussy uh so that you know they will accept everything I say to them. Is it an effect of what happens because of the preaching and the music? I maybe, but I don't think it's like the motive. Um, Miller, I think I might have lost you there for a second. Did you did you call out and call people?

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Well, I was just gonna interject on a couple things, but my my microphone was turned off, so I left and came back. I'm not sure what happened to you, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

I muted you, dog, because you're you were slapping on your keyboard and I was like, nope, um I'm gonna I'm gonna not distract people by your clickety clack.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

My bad, dude. I should have told you.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Well, I think I think the point you were making is these assumptions of motivation um n are wrong, but the impact may actually be true. Um there is a truth to the fact that when you when you say prophecy doesn't exist today, that God is not speaking extra biblically today outside of scripture, um, then you're de facto quenching the spirit because you're not leaving room for that to happen. If anything, you're forbidding that to happen because it's the it's it's a priori ruled out as false. Um but but the cessationist is gonna say, hey, look, we don't believe that's for today, so we don't think we're quenching the spirit. The fact you and I would agree neither neither of us thinks their their intent is to quench the spirit. That's not their intent at all. Um so I I would agree with that. Um and and there is a problem there. If we just say those things, then we're gonna be speaking right past each other, we're not gonna be able to hear each other. In the same way, like every comment section we get uh for every conference we do, is just there's always a comment in there. Oh, these guys just want to get rich because they're charging for their conference, which is wild to me. I remember we did a side-by-side comparison. How much did they charge for the cessationist G3 conference?

SPEAKER_01 52:23

It was it was over 300.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

It was over 300. Ours was what, 170, 160 at the time? Yeah, yeah.

unknown 52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

So we were charging half as much, uh, and yet nobody accuses them of just wanting to get rich for doing their conference or doing it.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

That clip that I just talked about, John MacArthur, where he was like, he said in that same clip, virtually every problem in evangelicalism can be traced back to the charismatic movement. He talks about um he talks about finances, he talks about immorality, he talks about uh a celebrity status. He talks about all these different things, but then after he talks about celebrity status, it cuts to the crowd, which is clearly thousands of people there at that conference. And I'm going, like, like, like, like uh isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Like when we've got the cessationist guys saying that everybody's doing this for money and they're charging twice as much for their conferences. Again, uh here here's what I think we should do. I think we should try and as much as possible get out of the political framework that we've all been programmed from. We've been watching too much Fox News and CNN, and what that does is it trains us to character assassinate one another rather than dealing with the substantive arguments and arguing the point of the matter. If we uh love hopes all things, it hopes the best of one's brother. And I think that when we come to a conversation with love, hoping the best of someone's intentions and motives, and we just deal with the theology, we just deal with the scripture, I think truth will out. But I think if we're too busy just kind of accusing one another and accusing the movement of these deep, you know, uh deep seated motives that are like evil and sinful, uh, I don't think there's room for productive conversations and it breeds uh miscommunication on both sides.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Well the fact is there there are like when it comes to the the the charlatans out there, the frauds that are out there, you know, scamming the sheep. Um they're not gonna go to the cessationists to hold a cessationist conference to scam people out of money because it just doesn't it's not as appealing. But the frauds, fraudulent people out there, they would put on a charismatic conference to scam people out of money because it would draw a crowd and they know it would work and it's not too hard to do. Um, so I get why that typecasting is out there, why that assumption of motive is out there. I think what's really tough is there are genuine charismatics out there holding conferences that aren't charlatans. Um, and I I've never heard a uh yet, and I'd love to hear this, but I've not heard many cessationists say, yeah, those guys doing that conference, they're not frauds, they're not charlatans. Um and I don't know if they would ever do that. Um I don't know if they would do that in our conference.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

We were also inviting people to come out and watch. Like I remember the Coltish guys who are like, Yeah, I think we're cessationists. And I was like, well, just come to our conference. Like, we can fix that real quick. Like, just come and hang out. Oh, dude, we've got a lot of these guys.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

We've officially paid for their Yeah, we'll pay for you to fly out, come and hang out, watch.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

You you can shadow one of our prophetic guys, watch him, you know, write things down in his notepad, or if it's John Mark Baker, he didn't even use a notepad. Um, you know, like walk around, watch them do prophecy, watch them pray for the sick, watch them cast out demons, and then afterward come and you know, you know, re rinse, wash, and repeat until the cessationism is gone and you'll be fine. Like uh because when you sit down and talk to these people, they're wildly orthodox. You know, like you know, John, Sean, Jeremy, uh, John, Mark Baker, I mean, Judah, who does our worship, uh, I put him toe-to-toe with tons of pastors theologically. He's he's solid, you know. Like this isn't a question about orthodoxy, it's primarily uh a question of orthopraxy and how we how we practice what we see in the scripture. Uh, and I think when people see the fruit of it all, um, that it's it's not fabricated, it's not woo-woo, it's not hype. I I remember my favorite clip was uh I think it was we were worshiping the doxology.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Um, you know, just like our hyper charismatic woo-woo conference. It's mega hype, you know, lights are fully on, mega blast. Uh, you know, everyone's got their hands lifted. Praise God from whom all blessings flow.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

The room is just this roar of like, you know, sovereign, uh sovereign, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh reveren, uh, reverent uh just praise uh a cappello singing uh to God, the triune God who blesses his people. Um yeah. So I just I go, hey man, uh come and see. I think that's uh the best the best cure, I think, for some of this. Um man, I think I think another one is is when we begin to this is a third category. We talked about doctrine, we talked about our suspicions of one another. I think I can very quickly address the subject of judging one another on our worst rather than our best. I touched on this a moment ago. You know, cessationists would love to hang out on the Kenneth Copelands and the Jesse Duplantis's and the Creflow dollars and the Rob Hendersons. And you know, to some extent, I'm thankful for their scholarship on it. I'm thankful that they're exposing the bad. Um, but I think that when you hyperfixate on those things, but you don't engage with our best. You don't engage with the Grutums and the Keener's and the John Mark Ruthvans, you don't you don't connect with the uh the DA Carsons, uh the Ben Witherington III, like when you're not you're not hanging out with like apex predators of scholars, but you're like picking off the you know mega famous TV personality who occasionally quotes an ancient Jewish text. Like when you're doing that, you're hanging out on those spaces, man, you're gonna typecast the whole space because you're not you're not dealing with our best. I'm not saying you can't criticize our worst. In fact, let's lock arms and do more of it together. Um, but but I do think that when people begin to define the whole movement based on the worst, you're gonna have all kinds um of miscommunication and misrepresentation that takes place.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Yeah. So, Josh, on the other side, you you've gotten the show notes here about how continuationists rarely uh go to the best of uh cessationists like John Calvin, um Warfield, Benjamin Worldfield, Richard. Well, that's not entirely true. Some of our uh there's a lot of people who have gone to interact with their arguments. I mean I'm saying mainstream just mainstream. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I know, but the thing is the mainstream cessationist, the Justin Peters, I never hear him interacting with uh Jack Deere. Uh scholarly. He did one, he did one debate with Sam Storms, but every time and and that that didn't age very well because of the whole Mike Bickel debacle uh and um the his failure to say, yeah, uh Benny Hen is a bad dude. But the fact was he never engaged with the theological arguments, he never engaged with the scripture, he only did ad hominem. And I I wish they would actually go and read John Mark Ruthfin on the cessation of the charismata, deal with that book, actually deal with the theology of that book because they just don't do it, they they don't interact with our best, they don't interact with Ben Witherington or Craig Keener. Um, and it's really frustrating that they don't. And I I don't get that. It's it's so much easier to think you're right when you won't actually look at the good arguments. Um it's frustrating. Yeah, yeah, it feels I gotta call it quits, Josh, because I gotta run some errands before get home.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

So you're good. I I would say Finish your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

Anytime, anytime we do this, it feels kind of coldy. So like anytime that you're in a space where you're like, hey, read our approved writings, don't read the other side, it seems coldy. Like I encourage people in our camp to go and read BB Warfield and go and read Middleton and go and read Calvin. And then when you're done reading those sorts of things, go read Jack Deere's book and watch three chapters easily dismiss those, like extr extremely easy to dismiss those argumentations, to to go read Sam Storm's um and watch how he just kind of blows it all out of the water. Um go read DA Carson, right? Showing the spirit. Um again, like we've got some giants out there. You know, I did a recent episode where uh I talked about answering an audience question question and just showed on-air graphics of all of the continuationist scholars that are feeling filling those seminaries. Uh, and we have huge representation in academia. So um anyway, we've got we got some great guys out there. Anyway, I I'll tell you what has caused me to lock arms with and understand my continuationist brothers more or my cessationist brothers more and more is listening to uh is listening to them, reading their books, uh, listening to their sermons. It it it's caused a lot of kinship with the stories that I've heard from the RC Sprolls and the Jeff Durbins, the the Charles Spurgeons of the world. Those those stories have connected me with them to say, hey, look, we actually have a lot more in commonality than we have different. And I think if you would read some of our guys, um I think I think they would find the same kind of commonality. Anyway, guys, uh I hope this episode's been edifying and encouraging. Miller has got to make like grandpa's checks and bounce. So uh we're gonna we're gonna wrap this program up. Uh guys, thank you so much for tuning into the program. We'll see you next week, uh, 4 to 5 p.m. Central Standard Time on Mondays and Wednesdays. Uh, if you're out there and you want to burn a couple brain cells and and hear about the absolute worst book I've read all year, uh, I'd encourage you to go check out uh breaking the time code. We released it this Monday. I listened to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

It was so bad. It's so bad. Oh, bro. How could Destiny Image publish this? Like, I I don't, for the life of me, understand. Like, in what world do you go? Hey, yeah, that's a that's a good Christian uh thing that we should bring to the church.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

It's just like I mean, here's the crazy thing. Put the Greek word or the Hebrew word, I mean, she 19 separate times. No one went, hmm, that seems unusual. I've never heard that. Let me check the source.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Besides, and that company You know, she wrote what she wrote Christian content they publish.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

Troy Brewer wrote the forward. Troy Brewer wrote the forward, and she gives special accommodations in the opening section to Larry Sparks and Tina Pugh. And I think Tina Pugh is a saint. I think Tina is a saint. Um I'll say that. Uh I'll tell you what, man. I don't know. You know her, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Like you need to.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

I know her personally. I used to go to church with her. I have she she asked me a while back, she was like, Josh, would you interview this person? We're publishing their book. And I was like, I'm not going to promote anything from Destiny Image, Tina. I love you. You've always been kind to me and my family. You know, I've I've got no personal vendetta to you, but like the stuff you guys are publishing turns my stomach and it grieves me. I don't remember exactly what the email said, but it's something about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

It is, it's it's gonna, there's stuff that's gonna get people demonized. Like it quite literally is. It's new age mysticism. Uh, I just I cannot understand for the life of me. Uh I can't consider them orthodox.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

Like, I don't know how to. Well, here's the thing, and I want everyone to do this because as much as I would love Destiny Image to change their ways, I also acknowledge that there are people who've spent years writing a book that is like orthodox and healthy and good. I think of like an RT Kendall who doesn't know Destiny Image's background and can't get the book published with Zondervan or whoever. And so Destiny goes, hey, we'll publish it. Um and they're like, hey, cool. They don't know the history, they don't know the background. It's like publishing a video on YouTube. I don't think I'm endorsing everything that's ever been said on YouTube by publishing on this platform. Um, I don't agree with the vast majority of it. So I I'm not, I don't want people to write off anything that's published by Destiny because it was published by Destiny, but I do want everyone to be on hyper alert anytime they're reading a book from Destiny Image because they're willing to film to publish anything. It I mean, yeah. Anyway, this had nothing to do with this episode, but no, but it's infuriating.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

Again, this is this is this is fodder for a cessationist to then accuse the continuationist of that kind of stuff. And they're right, because the biggest charismatic publisher is endorsing new age garbage.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Yeah, it's it's booby. Guys, thank you so much for doing it in this episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:31

We'll see you next week.