Genesis The Podcast

Unmasking Parental Alienation: The Weaponization of Children in Custody Battles

Genesis Women's Shelter & Support

The battleground of family court has become a dangerous landscape for survivors of domestic violence and their children. When abusers wield the controversial theory of parental alienation syndrome as a weapon, protective parents often find themselves losing custody to the very people they're trying to escape.

Ruth Guerreiro, Chief Clinical Officer of Genesis Women's Shelter & Support, pulls back the curtain on this troubling dynamic, explaining how a scientifically disputed theory from the 1980s continues to influence family court decisions with devastating consequences. We explore how protective behaviors—teaching children to recognize danger, set boundaries, and seek help—are frequently mischaracterized as attempts to "alienate" children from an abusive parent.

The stakes couldn't be higher. Research shows children exposed to domestic violence face staggering long-term risks: they're 50 times more likely to abuse substances, 74 times more likely to commit violent crimes, and six times more likely to attempt suicide. When courts fail to recognize post-separation abuse tactics—using children as informants, undermining the protective parent's authority, or manipulating children psychologically—they inadvertently become accomplices in continued trauma.

But there is hope. Ms. Guerreiro shares powerful insights about effective interventions that help children heal, including attachment therapy, trauma processing, and teaching critical thinking skills about healthy relationships. She offers practical guidance for rebuilding connection and stability, from creating family traditions to implementing consistent boundaries that counter the chaos of abuse.

This episode challenges us to reconsider how we protect our most vulnerable citizens, advocating for family courts that prioritize children's safety above all else. Whether you're a survivor navigating custody issues, a professional working in family services, or simply concerned about child welfare, you'll come away with a deeper understanding of these complex dynamics and the tools needed to make a difference.

Speaker 1:

Family court has become a battleground, with the youngest victims of domestic violence paying the price most, especially when false claims of parental alienation are used to sway judges into awarding custody to abusive partners. Here to break down where the system is failing our children and our future is Ruth Guerrero, chief Clinical Officer of Genesis Women's Shelter and Support. I'm Maria McMullin, and this is Genesis, the podcast and support. I'm Maria McMullin, and this is Genesis, the podcast. Parental alienation and the resulting syndrome is a theory first put forward by Dr Richard Gardner in the 1980s. The theory claims that parental alienation syndrome is a childhood disorder where a child develops an unjustified campaign of denigration and rejection against one parent, often as a result of manipulation and indoctrination by the other parent, and is a circumstance most often associated with custody disputes where domestic violence is present. While controversial, this theory has often been wielded by some experts to sway family court judges to side with an abusive parent, most often the father, on determining custody of a child, thereby leaving the abused survivor typically their mother with little or no recourse and forced to submit to custody orders, having her children experience further abuse and retaliation from an abusive father. To challenge this theory, its practice and to illuminate the harm that befalls children due to this false narrative.

Speaker 1:

We welcome Ruth Guerrero, chief Clinical Officer of Genesis Women's Shelter and Support, back to the show. Ruth, welcome back to the show. Thanks, maria. I'm happy to be with you and we have a lot to unpack today, so let's jump right in. I opened the show with a brief and high-level overview of parental alienation and parental alienation syndrome, but it would be helpful to understand more about how this theory developed and why it is still accepted. So, to begin, and from a clinical perspective, what is parental alienation and parental alienation syndrome?

Speaker 2:

Parental alienation is when one parent is manipulating a child to align with them and to be against the second parent, when there's no negative impact on the child to have a relationship with that second parent. I think that's the important piece right. There's no reason to alienate the child from that parent. And yet they're doing that. If there is abuse happening to the child or that the child is witnessing abuse happening to that primary parent, that primary parent is actually doing safety planning, meaning that they are taking the steps necessary to help teach the child how to reduce risk of harm, how to recognize when there's harm happening right. In society we expect parents to do safety planning. In society we expect parents to do safety planning with their kids. We expect parents to teach them to look both ways before crossing the street and to put on a seatbelt when you're in the car and to recognize stranger danger right or noticing, like when, those grooming behaviors of being able to recognize and therefore look for help. Ask a safe parent or a safe adult for help being able to identify when there's danger. When one parent is being abusive to the child, it is the responsibility of the other parent to then do that safety planning. But unfortunately, abusive partners and because we work at Genesis and I'm talking about, you know we work with women who are survivors and victims, and men are usually the perpetrator. So it's when these abusive men are using what they're calling parental alienation against the mom in court, which I know we're going to talk about later. Yeah, but that is when, like, it's a problem because there's an actual reason, there's a valid reason why mom is not alienating the children but is helping to do safety planning.

Speaker 2:

So parental alienation syndrome was coined by the psychiatrist Richard Gardner. It's not listed in the DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, which is what we use to be able to give a mental disorder a diagnosis. It's not found in the ICD, which is what health professionals use with international classification of diseases. It's not designated to be a real diagnosis or any type of disorder. Most mental health professionals and domestic violence advocates reject parental alienation syndrome due to its lack of scientific origin. Even the American Psychological Association found that there is a significant absence of the data to support parental alienation syndrome. But, like I mentioned, unfortunately, even though it's not a real thing, abusers try to use it or misuse it in the court system in an attempt to cause that emotional stress or distress to the mom by making these false allegations when in fact mom and children are nervous and scared. Right, mom is scared for her children's safety when they are spending time with their dad, and so just to?

Speaker 1:

point back to the beginning, getting the definition down. It is an allegation that the mother is alienating the children from the father and men put that forward in family court.

Speaker 2:

to what To get custody right. They want full custody, not because they want to be an involved dad, but because they want to abuse her further. They want to have control over her and over the children. And the real definition does not say dad or mom, it just says you know one parent versus the other parent. But for our conversation today, in sake of ease, instead of having to continue saying he or she and he and she, you know being able to say the dad as the abuser and mom as the victim.

Speaker 1:

I appreciate that. I just wanted to make that distinction for listeners because it'd be a little hard. They can't see us. You know we're just doing audio and we're kind of talking about this in a theoretical way, but it is dad claiming that mom is alienating the children from him and therefore he deserves to have custody on those grounds.

Speaker 2:

Correct, and what he's going to point at or point to is that she is telling the kids to you know, make sure that when they're at dad's house, that they know how to call the police and how to call 911 and how to be able to keep themselves safe. Right to do that safety planning. Or maybe he's saying things like safe, right to do that safety planning. Or maybe he's saying things like well, she doesn't let me see them, or she doesn't ever let me be alone with them. Well, that's because she knows that he is dangerous towards them and she knows that she doesn't trust how he's going to parent and so her being able to help her kids stay safe by not going with him, for her that's a safety plan. But he will point to that in court and say see, she's alienating them from me.

Speaker 1:

Exactly so. To kind of just build on this conversation, a 2023 article titled Parental Alienation a Disputed Theory with Big Implications, by Hannah Dreyfus, published on ProPublicaorg, indicates and this is a quote in cases when mothers allege abuse and fathers respond with claims of parental alienation, it roughly doubled a woman's chances of losing custody in court, according to a 2020 national study on parental alienation funded by the US Justice Department. Another study funded by the Justice Department found the primary reason judges award custody to an abusive parent is that the mother is not viewed as credible. Two-thirds of the mothers in the study were dismissed as psychologically unwell and, in some cases, were denied custody even after their concerns about abuse were found to be valid. End quote Help us understand this dynamic and how family courts are persuaded to grant custody to abusive partners.

Speaker 2:

So many different parts of these quotes I want to talk about. So a few things are happening. Number one I think there's this shared societal belief that children need both parents to thrive. For their well-being they need two parents and I would say that's true as long as both parents are healthy and safe for the children. The problem comes into play when one of the parents is not safe, is not healthy, then actually, research shows that children do better to only have the one healthy, safe parent in their life. Otherwise they're going to continue to have difficulties with their emotional and mental health.

Speaker 2:

And I will say that in Texas, judges and family court are required to operate from that assumption that children need to have equal time with both parents. So right off the bat, we're fighting a battle. If judges are supposed to think in their heads as they're making rulings, the kids need to spend an equal amount of time with both parents. And there's already this belief that kids need both parents. Also, there's a lot of times in family court that a dad in a family would be absent or might not show any interest in spending time with their kids. I mean, how many times do we hear that in families that dad isn't around. Dad isn't part of the picture. So when a dad shows up to court and is like please, let me have my kids, I love my kids, I want to see my kids, if there has been abuse and that dad has been abusive either towards the children or towards the mom, but the judge hasn't had any training to recognize that or to understand that domestic violence impacts children as well as the mom, then of course the judge is going to say oh, look at this, a dad who really wants to participate. I have to deal with all these other dads who don't want to participate. So then that's great, right, like for their perspective, that's a really great dad wanting to be involved with the kids.

Speaker 2:

And I mentioned this a minute ago. But the intersectionality of child abuse and domestic violence is very high. The number one predictor of child abuse is spousal abuse, meaning children who grow up in a home witnessing their mom be abused by the intimate partner are more likely to also be abused by that dad or stepdad figure. And in the family court system they're really focused on whether or not there has been any physical or sexual abuse to the children and if there hasn't, there is this belief system that okay, he was a bad partner, a bad husband, a bad boyfriend, but not a bad dad, right. And so just because he abused his wife doesn't mean he's going to abuse the kids, which again is a problem, because statistics and research will show us that children are more vulnerable and in more danger when they're in a home where the intimate partner violence is happening.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and experts will say, you know, if you ask the question, if he's an abusive husband, can he still be a good dad? And the answer is no Correct. Yeah, not at all.

Speaker 2:

So when the court system labels the safe parents valid claims of abuse as alienation tactics, it is allowing the abusive partner to use the legal system as another abuse tactic right. Other examples of that legal abuse could be misusing court proceedings to control or harass or intimidate or even coerce and exhaust her financial resources, her emotional resources. Abusive partners tend to delay court hearings, causing again, like her, to have to miss work again and have to find a babysitter again, or, how you know, having to pay more for her attorney, and so it just goes into this cycle. This allegation of parental alienation is just one more thing that he can use against her to cause her distress.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so. One of the most vocal and well-known challengers of parental alienation theory is the late Dr Evan Stark. In his book Children of Coercive Control he wrote about the case of Jonathan Dee and I want to read an excerpt from the book. This is a quote. When Jonathan told the evaluator and then the judge that he was terrified of his dad, the father called as his expert witness psychiatrist Richard Gardner, the doctor who first propounded the theory of parental alienation syndrome. Dr Gardner never interviewed Jonathan D or his mother and presumably learned nothing about any domestic violence to which the child was exposed, but he nonetheless concluded that since the couple had been separated for almost a decade, the boy's fears of his father could only be the result of alienation by his mother. To overcome such alienation, dr Gardner recommended full legal and residential custody be shifted to the dad.

Speaker 1:

When I got involved two years later, the mother still only had two days a month visitation. The boy was prohibited from even visiting his own pediatrician. He had gone from an A to an F student, had cut crosses into his arms, had run away from home on several occasions and was on the verge of being placed in a residential school. The point here is not the transparent foolishness of Dr Gardner's pocket diagnosis of parental alienation syndrome, but the incredible power, the fear conveyed to the young boy by the effect of the father's threats on the mother. This boy, who was suffering intimidation by the father by proxy, was the direct victim of coercive control of the mother, and you can find that quote on page 171 and 72 of the book Children of Coercive Control. That's a lot to unpack. Can you help us understand how a situation like this went so terribly wrong?

Speaker 2:

Yes. So again, court professionals, whether it's the judge or attorneys or even custody evaluators, when they don't have any training on domestic violence or how it impacts a mom and the children, right, if they don't have the training on what are the red flags that abuse is happening or what are the different types of abusive tactics that a man uses in the home, then they are not going to see that abuse is happening and therefore not be able to take that into consideration when making these custody decisions. Again, it's this belief that an abuser is only abusive towards the mom but not the kids. It's not understanding that when there is, even if the abuser has never physically or sexually abused the child, that doesn't mean he's not going to so. Being able to understand the again that intersectionality between domestic violence and child abuse.

Speaker 2:

I like what Dr Stark said at the end. Right, it's. It's not recognizing the impact of coercive control in the home over the whole family, not just the mom. You can see all these symptoms that he's listed that this boy experienced. That is the kind of proof or evidence that there is trauma that is happening, that that child is scared. You know, a lot of times moms and kids are really scared to report abuse directly, to come out and disclose it due to fear of retaliation, and if there's no criminal punishments to the abuser, it's really there's nothing that can stop the abuse from happening. Even if mom is taking quote, unquote, all the right steps of getting a divorce and leaving the relationship, abuse doesn't stop once they separate, and so, of course, this kiddo having to go back to dads, he's still going to continue to have all those trauma symptoms, and there's your proof that something is wrong. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Now, how has this theory and the actions of people like Dr Gardner in this case and others contributed to a false narrative about the impact of domestic violence on children?

Speaker 2:

Parental alienation really creates this focus on mom's behaviors. Right, it's saying that mom is doing something wrong by alienating her children. And if they focus on mom's behaviors, then it's taking away the focus of dad's behaviors, because now the spotlight is on mom instead of on dad. But the spotlight really needs to be on dad's behaviors because now the spotlight is on mom instead of on dad. But the spotlight really needs to be on dad's behaviors because he's the one that's abusive. He's the one who is manipulative, who is intimidating, who is threatening. So when the focus is off of him, it's really sending this message that dad's abusive behaviors don't matter, that they aren't impacting the children. You know it's giving justification in court to be able to take away kids from mom without having that full picture. So then in doing so?

Speaker 1:

how does parental alienation contribute to the weaponization of children who are stuck in the middle of custody disputes?

Speaker 2:

So it causes a lot more trauma. Right, when parental alienation is used as the reason to take children away from the primary caregiver, the mom and the children are given to the abusive parent. We see these trauma symptoms in the children. Think about, like, how awful that sounds to forcibly remove a child from a safe, loving, healthy primary parent and all of a sudden send them over to live with dad. I'm not sure if you're aware, maria, of reunification camps. Yes, it's a thing happening in different states, including Texas. This is where courts are coming in and ruling and saying, okay, yes, children have to be reunified with dad because mom has been alienating them. Right that allegation of parental alienation. They are forcefully taking the kids away from mom, sometimes in the middle of the night.

Speaker 2:

I've seen videos of teenagers being carried away by police officers and they're forced to then go and stay with dad who a lot of times have not had a ton of contact with him. And especially you can imagine the younger kids, older kids, maybe they can you know they're old enough to maybe take dad, who a lot of times have not had a ton of contact with him. And especially you can imagine the younger kids, older kids, maybe they can you know, they're old enough to maybe take care of themselves a little bit, but the younger kids not knowing, like, who is this person that I'm with? Or you know, I'm much smaller than dad and so I can't fight back or I can't protect myself, it really creates this instability and trauma. A lot of times. They are saying that kids then are not allowed to have any contact with the mom for a certain period of time Sometimes that's 30 days or 60 days and then they're forcing them to engage in what they're calling reunification therapy.

Speaker 2:

So abusive men claiming that mom is alienating the children when in fact, right, she's trying to keep them safe away from him. He's going to then manipulate the system, the attorney and the judges, and when they're saying that they're attending this reunification therapy, I'm saying quote, unquote therapy. It's not going to work, it's not going to repair that relationship, it's not going to be effective. They say like, oh, their goal is to repair, to create this attachment or this bond between the children and dad, to repair what mom has damaged, when in reality, if it's done in that way, through force, through coercion, through fear tactics, the child is not going to repair any relationship, especially if they don't want to see dad. If they don't want a relationship with them, if they don't feel safe with dad, that's not going to work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, nobody responds well to those types of tactics, and least of all children. And from what I understand, in a lot of these reunification camps they're not even moderated by a licensed professional.

Speaker 2:

Correct, correct. There's no kind of standard of care. There's no nobody kind of overviewing them, looking at them and making sure that they're following any types of protocols, reviewing them, looking at them and making sure that they're following any types of protocols. You know if reunification therapy really is recommended by a mental health professional, not by a judge or a lawyer, but a mental health professional has assessed and evaluated and said, okay, yes, let's start some reunification therapy. That therapist number one recommending it needs to be trained in domestic violence and child abuse and all of the things. And then they need to follow some certain guidelines to make sure that it's actually going to work. There needs to be a safe adult present. There needs to be that supervision. There needs to be continued contact with the primary caregiver. I can't see how traumatizing a child who's already traumatized is the solution. That's not the solution. That's just causing more trauma.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and we covered the topic of reunification therapy and reunification camps on the podcast on Crimes Against Women a year or so ago with Dr Bandy Lee. You might want to check out that episode for more information about that topic and understanding that it's different in every state. How or if there is any reunification therapy orders. Right, yes, okay, so let's switch gears for a minute and talk about post-separation abuse, because this is another very serious form of abuse that is extremely damaging to children. Give us some examples of post separation abuse.

Speaker 2:

So many things. So abusive partners commonly very repeatedly use children as weapons to control the safe parent. Right, they know if I do something to the kid that's going to make mom sad, angry, nervous, whatever, and so that is an easy way for him to control her. Even threatening to hurt the children can be a way that he is able to maintain control over her. So some examples might be refusing to pay child support, making false reports to CPS, requiring children to monitor the safe parent and report back to him, even encouraging the child to engage in the abusive tactics towards the safe parent.

Speaker 2:

Abusive partners try to manipulate the children into believing that the safe parent is a bad parent or doesn't love the child. Abusive partners they will always. We've seen this time and time again. They will always put their own needs first above the child's needs. Right? They're undermining mom's authority through overruling limits and consequences, and the abusive partner's chronic mistreatment of that safe parent in front of the child is sending a message hey, abuse is okay, yelling at someone is okay, hitting someone is okay, and so their actions, even if their words are never hit a woman or respect others, their actions are showing otherwise and really teaching the kids that it's okay to hurt someone when you're angry, so abusive partners also will interfere with mom's parenting styles and not letting her care for her kids in the way that she would like to and all of these different abusive tactics he's gaining power and control over the family.

Speaker 2:

I think we've talked about this before, but I'm gonna say it again If a fire-breathing dragon walked into the room right now, the safest place for me to go is right next to that fire-breathing dragon, because he's not gonna turn on himself and aim his fire at himself. So if I'm aligned with this dragon, then I'm safe. And that's what's happening. In homes where there's abusive dads, children sometimes will align with dad, will engage in the abusive behaviors, will try to you know, do what dad is saying of monitoring mom or whatever it is that dad is requiring and threatening to keep themselves safe. So I think it's important, just like on the outside, even if it looks like the kiddos are aligning with dad and they don't tell the judge that they're scared of dad, it doesn't mean that that's actually what's happening.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, that's manipulation right there. I love the visual you gave us of the fire breathing dragon. I love that for so many reasons. That's, you know, really alarming. And, yeah, you want to be with the person who is winning. It's getting their way and they're getting it through force because that's the way that you do it, or not, or shouldn't be doing it. And I loved what you said about abusive partners put their own needs first, because that absolutely makes it crystal clear to me they have to win, they have to get what they want at all costs.

Speaker 2:

No matter what Right, and so he wins when he's sowing those divisions right.

Speaker 2:

If he can get the kids on his side, then he knows that mom is going to stay because mom would never leave her children.

Speaker 2:

That's the most important thing to her is her relationship with the kids, and so him being able to get them onto his side or hurting them so that then she makes sure that she does anything and everything that he says to prevent them from being hurt, is his way of having that power and control.

Speaker 2:

And after separation, because all of these tactics can happen while they're living with the abusive partner, and when the relationship ends, the abuse doesn't end. Maybe the physical abuse towards mom ends because he doesn't have physical access to her, but there's still going to be that emotional abuse, that use of the children. Now, all of a sudden, the children might be the best and easiest way for him to get at her, and so he's still using that coercive control, that verbal and emotional abuse, he can strategically manipulate family and friends and the community into conflict with mom, spreading lies and rumors, so that now it's not just isolating her from, maybe like some other supports, but her family and her friends right, using that, that gaslighting to control the narrative, so that now everybody in the community or in the extended family are seeing what's happening. And he's now saying again oh well, she's alienating me from the kids, when in fact she's just trying to protect them.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so we've talked a lot about the abuser. Let's give some air time to the children and let's talk about the short and long-term impacts of these actions and domestic violence upon children.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so children are going to experience emotional abuse when they are witnessing the domestic violence and so this is going to cause some emotional effects. They're going to be feeling responsible for the violence or shame, that they come from a violent home. Maybe they feel guilt that they didn't stop the abuse and they felt responsible for not protecting mom. They could feel a lot of fear or confusion. Confusion is actually very common, because how hard for these children to see oh, this is my dad and I love him, and this is my dad and I hate what he's doing. You know, I've had kiddo clients who talk to me about how they're really confused about themselves and they think that they can never feel angry because dad was always angry and dad was.

Speaker 2:

Quote unquote bad and so I don't wanna be like dad so I can never be angry. But that's causing a lot of emotional turmoil and not being able to experience a normal, natural feeling of anger, which is what everybody feels. There can be a lot of isolation for these children or kind of feelings of numbness. It's kind of their brains way of checking out. If I have to pay attention right and really think about what's happening in my family, then I'm going to be in pain and so to protect myself I'm just not going to think about it and so we see a lot of avoidance.

Speaker 2:

We also see a lot of behavior concerns. The children might become physically aggressive themselves. They might be acting out. We see a lot of social difficulties with their friends. Maybe it's like really intense relationships, sleeping problems, difficulty concentrating. We see a lot of kids who are going through trauma, who maybe appear like they have ADHD, with that inattention and hyperactivity. We do see disordered eating, poor academic performance. We know that there's a correlation between asthma and witnessing domestic violence in children. I found some statistics that I find really staggering and awful. Children that grow up in a home where intimate partner violence was present are 50 more times likely to abuse alcohol and drugs, 74 times more likely to commit crimes against other people and six times more likely to commit suicide. I think that these are important, because this is not saying that these are the symptoms that they experience when they're living in a home with an abuser. These are long-term impacts that we're seeing, yeah, and they're devastating.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and so helping children recover from domestic violence should be our number one priority, because it impacts not only their future but the future of the entire community. So you work with clients, both women and children, at Genesis as a licensed clinical social worker. How do you work with them to help them recognize what is really happening, and what tools or strategies do you provide to them to counter these abusive tactics?

Speaker 2:

Maria, I really love this question because I could not do my job if there wasn't any hope. Hope for healing, right. That's what keeps me in in the work in the field really being able to recognize okay, what do we do about this? How can we help? Like I mentioned, we can't stop the abuse, but what we can do is really provide that support to mom and to the kids to be able to get through it. So a couple of things. Number one we do attachment therapy at Genesis with a mom and a child. So we know that witnessing domestic violence impacts not only the kid and the mom but impacts their relationship. I mentioned earlier about how dad tries to undermine mom, tries to tell the children lies about mom, and so we really do see that attachment or that relationship between the mother and the child be hurt and damaged.

Speaker 2:

And so being able to do some repair work through attachment therapy has been so healing for our moms and our kiddos. We, of course, are doing trauma processing. My team of counselors are amazing and they do a lot of different evidence-based trauma therapies to help children be able to heal from the abuse. I want to be really clear. We are never saying to children your dad is bad, your dad is mean, your mom is the good guy. We're not here to convince them of that, but we're helping them learn critical thinking skills. If we can talk and teach them about abuse, about respect, about the impacts of trauma, then they themselves can see how dad is responding, how dad is acting, and they get to decide okay, this is okay or this is not okay. We work with kids who are aligned with dad. We are not. We are not here to convince them that they're wrong and that they should be you know they should be on mom's side at all but really being able to teach children and moms about abuse, about the red flags of abuse how do you feel in your body when you feel safe or when you don't feel safe. We also do a lot of work with our moms. When we see kids for counseling, we do what's called parent consultations, where we're meeting with moms individually to be able to provide some support for her child. And we also have parenting classes and these classes and our parent consults we really are focused on what are the parenting skills that mom can use, or the strategies that mom can do to help kids heal from domestic violence and also can combat the abusive behaviors right? So if you think about, for one example, an abusive dad in the home, it's common for him to kind of be a little erratic Again, going back to it's just in the moment. Whatever his needs are, that's what he wants. And so there might be times when it's a little confusing for kids because there's not consistent rules. And so one thing we talk about with our moms is can you implement consistent rules and boundaries that kids know what to expect? Because you don't know what to expect from an abusive dad. He might fly off the handle one day on one thing and then tomorrow that same thing doesn't do anything, or vice versa. So really being able to encourage mom to use these positive parenting skills and techniques, teaching her how to build connection with her children instead of using coercion, helping her to show and express love instead of instilling that fear is really going to combat the domestic violence that they've experienced.

Speaker 2:

When talking about the effects of intimate partner violence on children who witness it, we are also not suggesting that a father can never see his children again, right, we understand that a lot of times, the majority of times, the the abusive father is going to be granted custody or some type of visitation with the children, and so we just would ask that there be maybe some guidelines to follow, right, to minimize that risk of emotional and physical harm.

Speaker 2:

So we like it when they're able to get supervised visits, because then we know that there is an unbiased adult not mom and not somebody from dad's family, but in a third person, a third party, who will be able to make sure that the children are not being abused by dad. We talk about thinking about the child's age when you're thinking about visitation with dad. The younger the child is, the less time they should be separated from mom for a period of time, and so really then being able to titrate the length of the time with dad, the frequency of the time with dad, and I would really hope that dad would be. If he really is wanting these visits with kids and he's saying that it's for the children's benefit, then that means he's willing to put in his work of going to his own therapy, attending parenting classes that are specifically designed to help traumatize children. If he can do all of those things, that is going to provide better outcomes for the children.

Speaker 1:

I really appreciate that you emphasize that because of dad doing his own work, because all of these things that you just mentioned, that you do and your team does to work with women and children who've experienced domestic violence, it's work for them. They have to work through their trauma, their skills and practices and meditation and all kinds of things that you need to do. You have to practice it. Dad's just going into court screaming parental alienation, getting his way and then not doing anything, not doing any of the work, and it's not enough to say that that's unfair. It's just a really poor example of being human.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, I agree, you know. Again, going back to how we started the conversation, if children can have two healthy parents, then of course we're going to have better lifelong outcomes because they had two healthy parents. But a healthy parent, maria, is somebody who is willing to do their own emotional work right, who is willing to compromise with the other parent, who is willing to put their own needs to the side and to focus on what is in the best interest truly in the best interest of the children. It is a parent who is emotionally safe, meaning that they accept all of the child's feelings, whether that's anger towards them or love towards the other parent. Being able to really prioritize a child's emotional and physical safety not just their needs but their safety, encouraging the child to respect both parents, not trying to take the child away from the other parent that's what you are if you're a healthy parent Right, exactly, real quick.

Speaker 1:

you mentioned one thing. I wanted to try to get an example of it parenting techniques to include connection. Give us an example of how to build connection with a child.

Speaker 2:

Okay, oh, I have so many. We know that it's really helpful for child development, for children to feel like they are a part of something, that they have a sense of belonging. So if you can create family traditions, family rituals, to where, like, this is our secret handshake, or this is our family motto, or this is what we do every night before bed, or this is what we say to each other this is our secret handshake or this is our family motto, or this is what we do every night before bed, or this is what we say to each other, you know, every morning before you go to school, that is building that connection, building that relationship, and the techniques are going to depend on the child's personality and the child's age. Right, for a five year old, you might do a fun, secret little handshake and that is the best thing. Right, for a five-year-old, you might do a fun, secret little handshake and that is the best thing. But try to do that with your 15-year-old teenager and that's not going to happen. So you have to just be really individualized in what's going to work with the family.

Speaker 2:

I have several book recommendations, but different ideas to be able to help mom connect. So maybe it's. Let's talk about physical touch and so for maybe for your daughter doing her hair, is that physical touch in the morning that she's getting? But for the son, he doesn't really want you to play with his hair, but he'll give you a high five, great, right. So now we're doing physical touch. We talk about physical proximity. When you're sitting on the couch with your kids and you're watching a movie, can maybe you just be like sitting close to each other instead of on two opposite ends of the couch? Let's say the teenage boy is playing video games, can mom pause what she's doing, take five minutes out of the day to go and sit next to him? Hey, tell me about your video game that you're playing, and maybe he's going to be like, be quiet, mom, I'm concentrating or whatever. Like I get that. But if she can just sit next to him and maybe like her knee is touching his knee and that's that connection that she's building with him. So lots of different examples of how she can implement just these tiny, free, right, easy things to do to help build that connection so that the child does feel safe and seen and heard.

Speaker 2:

There's this analogy that I heard, and I'm sure it's in one of the thousands of parenting books that I've read and I can't remember which book it's coming from now at this point, so I apologize, but I love this analogy that parenting and having open communication is like going fishing. When you go fishing, you have to throw out the line over and over again before you get a bite. With parenting, it's the same idea. You have to just keep trying. You have to throw out that line.

Speaker 2:

Hey, how was your day at school today? Hey, what did you learn today? Hey, I'm thinking about you. I know you have a really big day at school. All of these little things that we're just trying, and most of the time you know how kids are. Fine, I didn't learn anything, nothing. There's like one, two word answers. But eventually, if they see the consistent effort that mom is putting into of building a relationship when you least expect it, they're going to start opening up and they're going to start talking For so many reasons you're so right, not the least of which is kids are incredible observers.

Speaker 1:

They see everything, even if you don't know that they're watching or listening or sensing what's going on. So, yes, they will recognize if you are trying to reach them, and it may take time with some kids. Some kids are more responsive, but most of the time they will connect with you by just by you trying to cast that line, as you said. And everything that you said goes back to the point of being a human being, because being human connection is what makes us strong, connecting with each other. And so these are excellent examples of how anyone listening, who just wants to connect with a child, or maybe even is experiencing domestic violence. Ruth is an expert and that's why we love bringing her on the show to talk about her work in these really important topics. There's more information on our website and always good to be with you, ruth. Excellent Thank you for having me, genesis.

Speaker 1:

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