Seeds Of Wellbeing - SOW

Ep 55. Ag Property Tax Changes on Hawaii island

• Jim Crum / Lisa Miura and Keita Jo • Season 3 • Episode 4

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In this episode we speak with folks from the Hawaii County Department of Finance, Property Tax Administration office, about recent changes to Hawaii County’s property tax regulations and filing requirements that can allow agriculture producers to receive, or continue to receive, preferential property tax rates for their property on the Big Island of Hawaii. These changes have created quite a stir among agriculture producers so we wanted to get more information and some clarification about these changes.

Brought to you by University of Hawaii College of Tropical Ag. and Human Resilience (CTAHR), and the Seeds of Well-being (SOW) Project. This podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network (FRSAN) grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and Hawaii Department of Agriculture.

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Jim:

The views, information or opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals involved, and do not necessarily represent those of the University of Hawaii, College of Tropical Agriculture and Human resilience, our funders or any of the organizations affiliated with this project. Welcome to a seeds of wellbeing, experts in the field podcast featuring Hawaii agriculture producers and affiliates working in their field of expertise to support agriculture in Hawaii, in the United States and in some cases around the world. These podcasts are made possible by a grant from the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resilience, also known as CTAHR and the seeds of wellbeing, or sow project, and is supported by a grant from the US Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture, and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture.

Keita Jo:

It's about having a conversation. The forms can seem overwhelming. We worked really hard to simplify those documents make it as easy as possible. And you know, our office has a really strong commitment to the community and customer service. We're here. We're public servants. We want to have that conversation to help navigate anybody through this process. It is overwhelming. It's overwhelming for some of our staff even, so, you know, we want that opportunity to help walk people through it.

Jim:

In this episode, we speak with folks from the Hawaii County Department of Finance, property tax administration office about recent changes to Hawaii County's property tax regulations and filing requirements that can allow agriculture producers to receive or continue to receive preferential property tax rates for their property on the Big Island of Hawaii. These changes have created quite a stir among agriculture producers. So we wanted to get more information and some clarifications about these changes. I'll start with introductions and and I think, Lisa, do you want to to introduce yourself first?

Lisa Miura:

Sure. I'm Lisa Mira. I'm your Real Property Tax Administrator for the County of Hawaii. We're under the Department of Finance, and we have offices located in Hilo and Kona.

Keita Jo:

Keita And I'm Joe, the Assistant Administrator for Real Property Tax.

Jim:

Okay, well, thanks both. Thanks to both of you for being on the program today. Give me a little background, or give us a little background on what happened, and maybe a little history of how it used to be and what changed and why.

Lisa Miura:

Hey, maybe I'll give us a start, and whatever I miss Keita will pick up for me as we go through it. It's it was a very long process, so it didn't happen overnight, and it went through quite a bit of changes through the years. And I'm want to thank you first for even agreeing to meet with us and letting us be part of your podcast. This is our first podcast. Nobody usually invites Property Tax to do anything with them, but we do feel like it's a great opportunity and way to get out to the community. The main thing that happened with the changes that were approved in 2023 by the County Council, was changing our agricultural programs under the Real Property Tax Division from two programs and it went to three programs. But in doing that, the non dedicated ag program is being sunsetted. So it's not everybody's just being kicked out, but they're trying to phase them into other programs, and that would require applications. A lot of the reason it started off needing a change was for a couple of reasons. The ag programs, as it was originally set up, was many years ago, and it didn't go through any major overhauls, and every program within real property tax should be looked at periodically to make sure it's still achieving the goals of the program. When it came to agriculture, there were three different groups. There was a task force, at one time, a ad hoc committee, and then finally, there was a review group, a working review group, and the working review group had wanted to break out and have Ag Committee take a look specifically at the agricultural program, because it's such a huge program. The homeowners is, is the biggest program that we have, with over 40,000 parcels. But the agricultural program had about 11,000 parcels in it. There are two parts to the program before the non dedicated agricultural and then the dedicated and majority of the parcels were in the non dedicated program. The Ag Committee came back with a report to county council, and basically wanted more structure on the netted, non dedicated agricultural program, which included more inspections and just more guidance for the Real Property Tax staff to know what they're supposed to be looking for. Some areas that weren't addressed in the past were areas like fallow, and so we would have some individuals or properties that would say, you know, they're in fallow. Five years later, they're still in fallow. Five years later, still in fallow. And our office didn't have and we still don't have agricultural experts. Finding any agriculture expert to actually want to work in a tax office is very difficult. Most people that love working in agricultural their goal isn't to be in an office or to be handing out taxes to farmers or ranchers. It is one of our least favorite parts as well. And so it it became very difficult for us to understand what is the way the program should be. What does the County Council and the public want to see for these for a tax benefit on the program. With homeowners. It's very simple, very simple. The rules are laid out that gets looked at all the time. Agriculture is one that everybody was afraid to so I guess, to wrap that up, that was a big part of what changed. So now we have three programs, the community food sustainability, which is a five year program before needing a reapplication, the short term, which is a three year program, and the long term, which is a 10 Year program. Did you want to add anything to that?

Jim:

Yeah, if I can just go, if I could just interrupt for one sec, sorry, so 11,000 properties? Is that what I heard you say about 11,000?

Lisa Miura:

Yes

Jim:

Fall under this, either dedicated or non dedicated. AG, exemption.

Lisa Miura:

No, that's all the agricultural programs.

Jim:

Okay, so all the agricultural programs so, but historically, it's been just the two, the dedicated and non dedicated. So that's 11,000 under, under those under that umbrella?

Lisa Miura:

Yes.

Jim:

Those two? And, trrow those two under that umbrella, I guess, of of agriculture and so, but the majority you said, were non deca, non dedicated ag or NDA, I guess is the acronym we're using for those. Is that right?

Lisa Miura:

Correct

Jim:

So, so what percentage would you say of the 11,000 or NDA? Do you have a sense?

Keita Jo:

Um, it was about 9000-9500 okay, the majority,

Jim:

Okay, yeah

Keita Jo:

So significant.

Jim:

Okay. And so the changes that you're talking about with the three new programs for NDA is dedicated agriculture still a reality. Does that change at all? Or is that staying the same and it's, we're just talking about the the 9000 or 9500 that are NDA.

Keita Jo:

So for the most part, the 10 year dedication is remaining intact. That's what we call our long term dedication program. So that's not changing very much. Some small, slight, subtle changes that people will see. Most people will be impacted from that sun setting of the NDA program.

Jim:

Okay, so the dedicated AG, my memory of it, or from what I've been researching or reading, is it seems like the dedicated ag didn't require an annual reporting, and then NDA program did. Is that right?

Keita Jo:

For all intents and purposes, the NDA program was a program that didn't require reapplication, so it would roll over year to year. The big difference between those two programs was that the tenure dedication you were, the expectation was that you would remain in agriculture use for the period of 10 years where NDA, you know, if things change down the road, two years into an NDA program, you could leave that program without any type of tax penalty or implications.

Jim:

Okay, so is dedicated. ag, now the tenure program?

Keita Jo:

Correct.

Jim:

Okay, great. So they're been, they all are thought of as NDA. Is that kind of as I use these terms I wanna', I just want to make sure we I get the terms correct.

Keita Jo:

So, so we kind of use the, sorry apologies, used to use the dedication and ten year dedication. They're almost one in the same, historically. So you'd have that dedicated program, which was a 10 year commitment, and then the non dedicated, which was year to year.

Jim:

Okay. And is it, is it the right phrase for me to call them, ag exemptions? Is that fair, or is it, is there a different term I should be using for that?

Keita Jo:

I think, from a technical perspective,

Jim:

Please, educate me

Keita Jo:

It's a preferential assessment. Okay, so instead of looking at, you know, the market value of a property and exempting out a certain dollar figure. It's really reassessing the value of the property based on its agricultural use.

Jim:

So preferential assessment for agriculture use, that's okay, great.

Lisa Miura:

But Jim, you can call it whatever you want, and the tax here will never correct anybody.

Jim:

No, but I, you know, I want to get it right. It's just. Just like, you know, I want to get people's names right. I think I've already, I've already messed up Cada, or is it Keita? I'm already messing up your name, so I'm sure I'll mess up your titles, because it's like, one of the longest department names.

Lisa Miura:

Oh, it's okay, you can, we're used to all kinds of names.

Jim:

Okay, so that, yeah, so there's, so there were two programs and I, and I guess again, correct me, but the way I'm hearing it is, up until now there were two programs. One was called dedicated, ag, the other non dedicated, and now there are going to be three programs, but so, but there and so long term is considered a replacement for dedicated the ten year. And then the other two are considered NDA non dedicated.

Lisa Miura:

Nope.

Jim:

Oh,

Lisa Miura:

The short term three, both.

Jim:

Okay,

Lisa Miura:

Don't worry, so we had to do a chart for our staff as well. So it's not just you. The short term. They created a short term dedicated program. It says dedicated, but it's not recorded at the Bureau of Conveyance, but you do reapply every three years, and that is, honestly, value wise, most similar to the non dedicated agricultural program that is going away, and then they created a whole new program called Community Food Sustainability.

Jim:

Okay, yeah, that's a brand new one. Okay,

Lisa Miura:

Brand new Yes.

Jim:

Alright, so actually, I wonder if it makes sense to bring up one of your charts that you sent over to me. Okay, let me try to do that, and just maybe we could use that as you talk through the programs. Let's see if I can share a screen too when we do that. So bear with me one moment. We used to have dedic, yeah. So we used to have dedicated and non dedicated, right? NDA, and now we have, still have dedicated variation on it with some of the new stipulations, I guess. And then we have these other two. So these are the three programs now, the community food sustainability, CFS, which is the new one, and then short term dedicated which is maybe closer to what the NDA used to be. Or no, that's just a Yeah,

Lisa Miura:

Similar as far as what your new preferential value would be. So if you had 10 acres in pasture before to have the same value for the 10 acres in non dedicated, the short term, dedicated is the same value.

Jim:

Okay? So what? Maybe I'll just leave this on the screen. And I did, Keita, I did interrupt, interrupt you if you want to, if you wanted to say more before it, you know, maybe before I cut you off, if there's stuff you wanted to add once, why don't you I let you, let you back, and I'll try not to interrupt this time.

Keita Jo:

No, not at all. Um, I think if you look at the history of our dedicated agricultural I should say our agricultural programs and agriculture on the Big Island, there is really a shift over time from mono crop to, you know, different means of farming and agricultural practice. And so I think part of the change was also to open the door for our staff to approve things that weren't, maybe necessarily historically seen as legitimate ag.

Jim:

So what types of things do you think?

Keita Jo:

When you have like, mixed use, diversified ag, agroforestry, things of that nature, where you see this shift. So our agricultural programs, when you look at the non dedicated and dedicated programs, are really based off of, I'm only going to grow this single crop on my property, and that's all I'm doing. And that really doesn't represent agriculture as we see it now.

Jim:

Well, not in Hawaii for sure, right? I mean, we're pretty unique. So it sounds like some of the templates for agriculture and what that means from the mainland, for example, might have been brought over and maybe didn't apply. I think that happens a lot in Hawaii ag, yeah. So so as an opportunity to kind of fix that and and I think, you know, in Seeds Of Wellbeing, we've, we've done some data analysis and a lot of surveys, and think our sense is that about 75% of all the farms on the islands are small, what are considered small farmers, so 10 acres or less. And I think each of those farmers, you know, there's a strong homesteading, kind of a philosophy behind them, and it's, it is very much unlike, you know, traditional row cropping on the mainland. So, so this sounds like it's just kind of catching up, if you will. So make that sound I see you're nodding your head so. So I think with the mindset of what, what can simplify this for people, what do they need to know? What's important? It sounds like everybody that's had any kind of ag preferential tax in their, you know, on their property for years, and now has to step up and do something if they want to continue to have that preferential tax rate. So, so I think that's the reality. And it remind me is this, this is just the Big Island of Hawaii, just the county, yeah.

Lisa Miura:

That's correct.

Jim:

Okay. So do you think any of the other islands are going to follow suit? Or do you have a sense of that? Or, I don't know if you you can tell, but it's I know the majority of ag producers are on the Big Island, but Oahu is certainly close behind. So do you think any of this might spill over to Oahu or other islands?

Lisa Miura:

Well, Kauai county already did a major change on their ag program, and I believe you need to have a minimum of five acres. And if it's less than five acres, the entire property needs to be doing some type of active agriculture. And they're focused more on commercial agriculture and not there's none of these three programs. It's a lot more simplified. City and County of Honolulu already goes to a percentage of value. So it's it's a little bit more clean mainstream there. Nobody else is providing. When we went through all these changes with County Council, County Council also made changes that I think some feel are positive. A lot of concern farmers and ranchers, and we definitely going to get into where we hear the concerns are in this program, one of the things they changed that they felt like was a very big step forward is in the past, you have to choose. If you're going to get the lower agricultural land value. You don't get the low homeowner tax class and the 3% cap you have to pick. And even for us, it was frustrating, because it's almost like you're gambling which is going to go higher is our land value? Higher is the building value? Like which way is better to go? And that 3% cap is a huge savings. When all these changes went about, County Council also updated the homeowner tax class and said, Well, if you're doing active agriculture, then you can get both. So that means you can get the lower agricultural land use and you can get the lower homeowner tax class if you're getting an exemption. And the key part here is not doing short term vacation rental. And I know that's a whole 'nother series that we could probably do with another group. That's how Council has it set up right now. And they took it a step further and said, If you are not living on your property, so you don't have the homeowner, but you're renting it out to your farm workers, which the farm dwellings were supposed to be for then you can actually get the affordable rental tax class if because usually what we've seen is a lot of those rentals are very low. I mean, I was shocked at how low the rentals were to the farm workers, which was great to see. We never realized how well and how far a lot of these farm owners were going to take care of their workers.

Jim:

It's kind of critical. Yeah. I mean, that's what we found, is as we talked to more ag producers on the island, labor is one of the biggest stressors and one of the hardest things to address, so you have to do what you can to keep good people.

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, that's what they've all said, and it's worth it for them to let them live there for, I mean, almost nothing for a lot of these dwellings. And I that was extremely shocking. We never knew that before, because they never would have qualified. They never shared that data. And so it was a leap that County Council took, and I think that one was a really good move, because they've seen their property taxes, they're coming down because of that. Now, again, if it's short term rental, there's nothing for that on those properties, but for the affordable rental and where they're residing, it made a difference. I want to clarify. I'm going to turn that all over to Keita to go through the differences in these three programs as he cuts to the chase and I get a little long winded, one of the other things we hear a lot is, oh, you it's affecting our zoning. This is not affecting agricultural zoning. Your property is still zoned agriculture. We got a lot of phone calls that got confused between the agricultural preferential benefit, the benefit value, which is way less versus the Ag zoning. Your zoning is your zoning from the planning department, we're not changing that. How you use your property, whether you're going to grow something or not, is still up to the owner, farmer, rancher, to get the lower value due to an active ag use which is way below market value for a majority of the island. And Keita will talk about the community food sustainability and how there's part of the island where maybe our ag value per acre is a little bit high compared to what their market values are. Uh, obviously not along Hamakua or the west side. Our values are quite high, but it does not affect your zoning. We're not trying to change any of the zoning that's between you, planning department, and if you have CC&Rs, completely separate from our office, we just look at zoning and what you're doing.

Jim:

But it does sound like there's actually a benefit with these changes for homeowners, exemptions, and you may be able to qualify for homeowners as well as the I said exemption again, but I guess it's a preferential tax rate for homeowner. Is that? Is that accurate as well? Is that what it's called for homeowners?

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, when you apply for the homeowner program, it actually has two different sections to it, which is very different than most of the rest of the United States. There's the exemption portion, which will lower your taxable value, and then there is the tax class, which is your tax rate, which is the lowest tax rate, similar to affordable rental and the 3% cap. So even though the market's going crazy high, it can only go up 3% each year. It's still going up, but it's not going up at the same pace as the market. And I think that's where we've seen the biggest inequity with farmers and ranchers where they live, that they're not they were not protected by that 3% cap, so their building values were going crazy, even though their land value was staying the same and they lived there, so I believe that was a positive change. They don't actually need to apply for that. It was an automatic conversion. So letters went out to say that they're automatically going to get the lower tax rate.

Jim:

Okay? And that's, um, is that that value? Is that what shows up on that statement I get every year,

Lisa Miura:

The Assessment Notice. We just sent that. Okay, Yeah, it'll show on the bottom your market value, your assessed value and your taxable value.

Jim:

Okay, so actually pay attention to all that when you get it, don't just file it away, right?

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, it's good. You want to make sure, if you're doing agriculture, you're seeing a different value there. If you got a homeowner that you're seeing your exemption there, and your taxable value is the big value you want to see, you take your taxable value times the tax rate, and that's your estimated taxes for the next year,

Jim:

Okay, And that's when you get all the phone calls,

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, we get 'em both times.

Jim:

You get them all the time. That's what you're there for, though, right? Okay, so, yeah, do you want to bring up this? This the grid

Lisa Miura:

Yes, yes. here that shows the three different categories. Or would you rather, yeah, let me do that again. It's, I noticed there's been a lot of revisions, yes, one of which is, I think the deadline for filing, I think, is has been revised again, which I think will reduce stress for the entire agriculture community, at least the ones that email me and so. So that's but a lot of changes, and it seems like that's, I'm kind of impressed with the amount of community meetings you've had about it all and feedback and making changes based on feedback that you get at community meetings. It seems like that's that's been happening more so than I would have ever expected with with such with such changes to Is it a law? No, it's a It is.

Jim:

it is to such laws? Yeah. So with changes to laws, I guess I was surprised to see so much of an interactive dialog and so much that you're responding to from the community. So thank you for that. But yeah, this so this is the October 21st version. Do you think there'll be more changes to this as still more changes coming? Are you still in conversations with folks?

Keita Jo:

I think it's pretty much landed where, where it's probably going to stay for a little bit as we roll this out. Yeah, and it has caused a lot of the confusion, but we went to great lengths to encourage participation, at least from the Division and the public, to help facilitate a discussion on, you know, what do these, what does agricultural mean? What does it look like? How can we develop these programs that meet it might not meet everybody's needs, but as many people as we can get to, because the intention is to maintain the Big Island's agricultural identity. It's a huge part of who we are, right?

Jim:

Yeah.

Lisa Miura:

Any change is hard change, and this was a big change, and sending out all the letters I it did cause quite a bit of panic and frustration. So part of us going out, we weren't the ones who it's County Council who does the change Administration, either signs off on those bills and it goes into law. But I, you know, we've tried to work very hard with the Council changes to make sure that everybody understands what this is about. It didn't help that it happened during an election year, and so a lot of information went out. I think there was a lot of anxiety, and so we've had quite a bit of meetings, and we're hoping to have more meetings with CTAHR, to have ag workshops. And it would make us really happy to actually have more properties qualify for the agricultural program. We're not trying to in our office cut it back. We want to make sure the right properties are getting it. And we've had a lot of new parcels come into the program because they thought they were getting an agricultural value that we're doing active ag, and had no idea they needed to supply an application. And so we've seen lots of new parcels come into it already, which made us feel really good. I mean, I, I wish they were getting it this whole time, but at least they're getting on now.

Jim:

Nice. Okay, thanks. Yeah, so walk us through the three new or the three, I guess they're new as a as of a few months ago. Are they official? Because there's no new applications being accepted for the old program?

Keita Jo:

correct

Jim:

Yeah. So walk us through the three new programs.

Keita Jo:

So all the three programs really are built around having a continuous, active agricultural use, and so just by virtue of having agricultural zoning, would not enable an individual to enter into one of these programs, but we have the long term dedication, which is a 10 year dedication that's very much similar to the dedication that we've always had. It's a recorded dedication, meaning it shows up on title, and that's just to put prospective buyers on notice in the event that the property is looking to be sold or transferred, that there is an agricultural benefit being given to the property, and there is a potential for what we call a rollback. So the big thing with the 10 year dedication is if at any point in the 10 years, if an individual stops utilizing the property for that agricultural use, there is a provision for what we call rollback taxes, so going back in time and saying, what should you have paid had you not received this benefit? And so it can be significant. And so I think that's the beauty of having these different options for people, because entering into agriculture is a huge risk for a lot of people. You might not you might be doing, you know, pasture today, that model might not work for you longer term, or vice versa. So you might go into orchard or truck crops, but these different programs provide entry points, depending on an individual's plan for their property.

Jim:

Okay, so it sounds like, with the ten year, you could sign on thinking you're going to have pasture, right? You're going to raise cattle, and just as an example, and then if you get into it three or five years in, and you say, oh, I want to do, you know, row crops or, or maybe part of it is, you know, you realize, after having the cattle there, maybe the soil is better, and you want to do row crops and so because, or maybe the, you know, and all the other things that can happen in agriculture that cause you to need to change your your strategy, the price of beef, right? That could be one. So at that point, could you then say, well, I'm going to now be short term or community food sustainability. You could change to another program, if that made sense?

Keita Jo:

Yeah. So if you're in the 10 year dedication and you decide that you want to change the type of agricultural use that you're doing on property, you would file a change of use with us so that you're locked in for that 10 year period under that long term dedication. But you can change from one category to another. So to go from pasture to orchard, or vice versa.

Jim:

kind of covers most of the agriculture types. So you can, you can shift and still be under the 10, I got it okay. And as far as minimum requirements, it looks like, is it a quarter acre is minimum?

Keita Jo:

Yes. So for the different agricultural categories, if you're in intensive ag, so truck crops, diversified ag, a quarter acre minimum size. For orchards, we're looking for one acre minimum size. We have feed crops, faster rotation forestry, two and a half acres, and then pasture and slow rotation forestry is five acres. With that said, there's an opportunity for individuals who do not meet that minimum size requirement to submit a farm plan that helps to support going below those minimum size requirements.

Jim:

Yeah, so that's, I mean, that's kind of interesting. It sounds like it's more generous, maybe, that is the word I would use, than the the Kauai program I think you were talking about Yes, it seems, I guess I'm looking at fast rotation forestry versus slow rotation forestry is that defined by the applicant?

Keita Jo:

So that's, yes, and we have different categories that we provide how we generally define what fast rotation forestry looks like. Typically, that's like your eucalyptus for maybe pulp production, or slow for rotation forestry would be your Koa, your hardwoods. That type

Jim:

Could, could fast rotation be papaya, since it's a fast grower and producer, or is that not a that

Keita Jo:

It would be under orchards?

Jim:

Okay. All right, got it, yeah, so it sounds like there's a list,

Lisa Miura:

okay, there's some guidelines that helps us too.

Jim:

Okay, yeah, it's so it's gonna make you being this flexible, I think is gonna make your jobs a lot harder, too.

Keita Jo:

But I think it's a recognition that there's so much fluidity with agriculture, you know, even with pasture and stocking rates and whatnot. Sometimes, you know, in a drought situation, you know, you need to reduce your herd size and whatnot. And so that's just the fluidity of ag in general, and so I think these programs try to recognize that, you know. That there's certain things that that are beyond the farmer or ranchers control, you know, and still, you know, allow this benefit.

Jim:

Yeah, I'm going to scroll down on the screen here, but I think, because I think we're, we're now moving to some of the other items you've been talking about.

Keita Jo:

So another component to the application that might be overwhelming for a lot of people is the $2,000 gross income on the Schedule F or G-49. In absence of that, if the property is adhering to generally accepted standards and recognized practices, you can, in lieu of showing a Schedule F having that $2,000 gross income, you can include it in your farm plan or discuss it in your Farm plan. So the farm plan is almost like an opportunity to kind of have that discussion right with our office. You might not make a$2,000 gross income. Maybe you're just starting off, and you're actually operating at a loss at that point. So having that farm plan really helps us to better understand your farm and your agricultural climate, what that looks like?

Jim:

Okay, so tell the whole story, yeah, yeah. And were you holding up one of the documents Lisa?

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, it was the farm plan.

Jim:

Okay. Do you have a template for that?

Lisa Miura:

Yes, yes, online. It's three pages. In the beginning, I believe a lot of people thought it was going to be this big, 14 page document. It's three pages you you fill in the answers to make it easier. We're not we're trying to make it easier on individuals to apply. We don't want it to be difficult, but we need just a little bit more information to help us. You know, with maybe what's fallow, maybe other parcels, you rotate your cattle so wh,en the inspector goes out, they don't see cattle, it's okay, because it's probably on one of these other many parcels that are out there,

Jim:

Right? So don't just do a sketch, but tell the story. Got it. Jump to the framework. I tell the whole story. I got it? Yeah, I think, I mean, certainly I've filled out the forms in the past. I would sense there's usually a diagram. You draw a picture of the layout and what you have where and like, if you have a homestead as part of it, you know, then carve that out and show where that is, and and so, so I think that's a piece of it, but I don't, I don't think I've ever taken the time to tell the story, right? So it sounds like that's, that's a critical piece, right now.

Keita Jo:

And then the other component I talked about the farm plan, in lieu of having the$2,000 gross income, you know, the farm plan is an option for you if you don't meet the minimum size requirements. You know, having that discussion, but the farm plan is one of a couple, or I should say, a few things. You do not need all of the above when we're talking about the minimum requirements. I think you're hovering over that right now. It's the farm plan, or an organic certification or conservation plan, or USDA Food Safety Certification, or $10,000 in receipts within the last two years, or an agricultural conservation easement. One of the following is more than enough. We wanted to provide individuals that already went through this process, probably a much more stringent process in the case of going through the USDA. You know, that's the golden ticket, right there? Or if you have an organic certification from the USDA, then the farm plan isn't necessary at that point.

Jim:

Yeah. Or even the food safety certification, which I think is, is maybe less rigorous, but also important to food production. So yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's helpful, yeah?

Keita Jo:

And I think that caused a lot of concern amongst many people was, I have to do all of these things. It was seen, you know, all or nothing, but it really is, give us one of the following,

Jim:

And then any other notes on that, on that item that you want to share,

Keita Jo:

Other than, you know, I did talk about the rollback. There are situations where we would not roll back an individual. So in the, you know, in the case of a farmer who was unable to care for the farm, maybe passed away, there would be no penalty for for not meeting the 10 year. The other component too, and we've seen this quite a bit, unfortunately recently, with a lot of crop damage, even natural disasters we had, you know, the eruption back in 2018 that damaged a lot of papaya orchards. There isn't a penalty in those situations. You know, there very much is a recognition that there are going to be things that are outside of the control of the farmer or rancher.

Jim:

Okay, and just send yourself a reminder in nine years to update your application or redo your application.

Keita Jo:

So what we'll actually do is we'll notify all the owners that have a dedication that's set to expire. We'll notify them in June, the June prior to the expiration, we'll notify them that it's time to refile. Because 10 years is a long time. I'm not going to remember myself.

Jim:

It looked like at one point it was it was, there was a 20 year program, but that may be taken off the plate. Yeah, I know, I know in some cases, 20 years is preferred in some cases, but it sounds like even if you have a 20 year lease, you'd still need to do the 10 year with this. Yes, and I did see with leases, right? It's, I saw a note there about, um, your if you have a lease and that it has to be either five years or more or less left on it to make the application. But what if it's an open ended lease, like you don't have a an end date on it, does that? Is that fine too? Or do you need to try to put limits on that for the sake of these documents?

Keita Jo:

Yeah, yeah. So an open ended lease, if it's not like a month to month where the lease term is, you know, that its ran its course, and then now it's month to month, I think it was open ended that that would be something that would be allowed these leases, for these particular for the dedications, need to be recorded, though that's one of the components that differentiates the tenure dedication from the other programs, is the requirement that the least be recorded.

Jim:

Okay, have the has they been recorded previously, or this is the first time they're being recorded?

Keita Jo:

They always have had that requirement, yeah. And it's really tied to the rollback provision in the ten year dedication, so there's some major financial implications, and it's just making sure that everything's lined up. Everybody's aware.

Jim:

Okay. And so it sounds, I heard you mentioned that there's going to be folks coming out to check and is that at during the initial application process, as well as if there's a 10 year lease, there might be folks coming out regularly just to check in?

Keita Jo:

So generally speaking, we'll come out at the inception of that dedication period to go through the approval process. Outside of that, if there's maybe a transfer or a lease expires or sell the property, there might be additional inspections. But generally speaking, we're not going to be going to be going out to the properties on a annual basis, semi annual basis.

Jim:

Okay. you're not sending drones like some of the folks in the neighborhood suggested?

Lisa Miura:

We don't use drones but we do have access to imagery that you know may help fill in the blanks. Usually we'll come out, though, if there is any improvements to the property, whether unpermitted or not, because we tax for unpermitted, staff will try to come out. And then the last time, we usually come out as if there's a complaint. So a lot of times, neighbors will say, hey, they're getting this huge break, and I pay way more in taxes, and they're not doing anything. And then we just come out to look at the property.

Jim:

But I guess again, in the rumor mill, since we're since I took us there, it's, um, I did hear that a lot of this was implemented to weed out. And I'm quoting from an article I read, which I'll put a link to in the show. Notes, but it said it's mostly to weed out gentlemen farmers so that, and to quote,"it would no longer be enough to plant a few papayas and bananas for your breakfast and lime trees for your cocktails, or put a couple of sheep or goats in your pasture." Was, was it really to try to crack down on the folks that are getting away with something and shouldn't?

Keita Jo:

I think the intent of it was really taking a look at ag all over again and really defining what ag means, and going beyond personal use and consumption. It always was that, I think that was always the intent of agriculture and these programs and how to support is to go beyond goal, out into the community, provide for the community, the greater community at large.

Jim:

And making adjustments that better reflect the true agriculture of Hawaii. I think it's the way you put it earlier. Okay, we'll we'll go with that. Forget the rumor mills. Do you want to talk to the other two programs, CFS, yeah, CFS and short term?

Keita Jo:

Yeah. So as Lisa mentioned, the short term dedication for most individuals that are currently in our NDA program, that's going to be the natural progression is to go into a three year dedication. And the reason being is it's a three year commitment for the short term dedicated program I talked about on the long term dedicated how there's a rollback, right? So if you stop using for AG, there's an implication of rollbacks for the short term dedication. If the property is sold or conveyed, there is no rollback provision. So it works, for the most part, in tandem with how the NDA program exists today. Sorry, go ahead. Sorry, no. As far as minimum size, it mirrors the the dedicated, and as far as income, it mirrors the 10 year dedication. And again, there's that farm plan that helps you overcome those particular requirements,

Jim:

yep, and you don't have the conservation easement, but that's for the ten year, and it's not recorded correct. So there's that if, if that matters.

Keita Jo:

Um, yeah. One difference, obviously, is the term, right? So every three years, an individual would need to reapply in order to continue the benefit.

Jim:

Yep, and sounds like we'll get reminders about that too, yes from your office. Yep, yeah,

Keita Jo:

Yeah. I did want to talk about one thing, and it really speaks to community involvement and the division and council listening to the community and some of their concerns. With a three year dedicated program at one point, legislation was out there that restricted renewal to three times, so you could only be in this program for a maximum length of nine years, and then you would have to choose to go to the 10 year or the community food sustainability. And I think there was a lot of feedback from the community, and council listened, you know, we listened. And so you saw this additional legislation come in to take that out. So right now you can renew every three years, indefinitely.

Jim:

Okay, great, that's another positive, another win for the ag community. Yeah, and CFS tell us about that one.

Keita Jo:

CFS is really about that entry point and about facilitating. You know, maybe you're not making $2,000 annual income, but you're donating to a 501c3, you might grow a lot of, you know, papaya. Maybe you have a large number of trees, so much so that you're sharing with your neighbors and you're sharing with nonprofits. This is a real entry point for individuals who kind of want to see, you know, some type of tax benefit, albeit it's not going to be as significant as the three year or the 10 year, but it allows for an entry point trial basis, if you want to think about it that way. But the big difference with this particular program is every five years, you would need to recertify, and at that point you would need to provide documentation that you are making donations of $1,000 or more to a non profit,

Jim:

$1000 per year,

Keita Jo:

yeah,

Jim:

Okay, yeah. And that's and, yeah. I saw that was, like, a, don't you have to give it to a 501c3, so you have that, or you just have to document it that it's going to someone. Does it have to be a non profit, like a tax deduct, tax exempt organization? It does Okay. So not just lawn mowers, is that what I'm hearing? No,

Keita Jo:

And, you would have to provide a receipt of exchange. The other thing that I want to also point out with the community food sustainability program is it includes pastoring for food production. So it's a little bit different from the other two programs, the three year and the 10 year dedication, but if you're utilizing pasture, for example, goat milk, you know, that type of agricultural practice, then you would be able to utilize this particular program for pasture use. Otherwise, there is the opportunity to only do the three and the ten year dedication. correct. Okay, gotcha, yeah, that's a lot of details, though. So

Lisa Miura:

And we haven't even talked about benefits. That's just the requirements.

Jim:

I know, I know, I know I could move to benefits, but I actually kind of want to go to the FAQ that you sent me today, because I think that's kind of handy, and cuts to the chase I think for a lot of things, for people I have it. This is a recent document? just, did, this came out in October as well.

Lisa Miura:

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Jim:

This seemed really handy, too. And again, the links will be in the show notes and is on your website. But this seemed, seemed like it was like I tried to Google some of this stuff, and none of it was as straightforward as your FAQ. I thought so. I like this document a lot, and I think folks may might appreciate seeing this, because originally I thought everything had to be in by September 2025, and I thought that was even on a document I saw as recently as my last property tax assessment. But then it sounds like that's changed and so, so that's we have another year, which is great.

Keita Jo:

It allows the division to help facilitate individuals filing their applications. You know, the feedback was like, one year is too short of a time period, especially if you have 1000s and 1000s of individuals that are going to need to consider the changes and apply for the different programs. And so we wanted a little bit more time to work with the community to to help.

Jim:

Yeah, got Are you finding, are you finding they're doing a lot of that, helping folks one on one. Yeah,

Lisa Miura:

And Jim, that was an extension made by county council. So in their first code amendment, it was, it was September 1st '25 they needed to reapply, but they changed it to September 1st 2026 so a lot of these are code driven, and we are just down low on the totem pole, following what the codes are. And some were done by the finance director, where she had authorization to make some changes to lessen what felt like pretty severe or harsh for the public based on their testimonies that they gave. So testimonies are always great to get involved in with the county government.

Jim:

Okay, yeah. And we've actually had some podcasts, a few with legislators and representatives, and it's and it's become clear that getting involved does make a difference. So I think we've been talking about in another podcast as well, but we will, let's say that again. I don't think you can say that enough, is my sense. But as one thing that I noticed is that the apps received by September 1, you get your benefits through June 30, but if you don't send it in by then, then you but you get it through June 30, 2029, but if you don't submit anything, then you're only until July 1, 2027, which I thought was kind of important. So it's like, it's like an extra incentive to get your application in, people, right, if you, especially if you have, if you have the beneficial tax rate, now get an application in, right? Yes, is, I think, what I'm going to tell anybody that'll listen, that has been talking, I've been talking to about it. I will mention that, you know, couple months ago, I was getting together after I got that letter, you know, my annual letter, and a bunch of us were talking about it again. And so I asked, "So has anybody talked to the office? Anybody gone through this process? You know, what are you finding as you talk to the county about it?" And everybody's like, "I'm not going to do it first. I'm waiting for other people to do it." Everybody said that that I talked to, it's like I was hoping they would do it so I wouldn't know what to do. But I guess a lot of folks are in that boat. But it sounds like a lot of people are calling your office. Do they come in? Do they do it on the phone? What's, what's the process.

Lisa Miura:

Both. They'll call on the phone, maybe to get a feeler and not give us a TMK number or name, just to see what's out there. And then after they get comfortable, usually they'll ask to schedule a meeting, maybe with the appraiser. It's really helpful, even when we do broad workshops or presentations, and we've done between 25 and 30 already, since July of last year. A lot of people want to speak specifically on their farm or ranch or situation with their family, and they don't want everybody else to hear it. So it's usually very handy for our appraiser to meet you out there, for you to meet with us. We'll meet you somewhere. And I think case by case is really the best way to go about it. Every situation can be very different.

Jim:

That's I'm definitely getting that feeling the more we talk. It's best to work with you, like you, to you, to get know to know me and my situation, which is everybody's, is unique, right?

Lisa Miura:

It is, it is.

Jim:

I think if you don't, you might be missing out on on a key component. Yeah, this is a lot of the details, a lot of the frequently asked questions I assume that you get are on the sheet. Is that a fair statement? So yeah, we'll share that out as well. There's some, well, I'm sharing the screen. There's one other couple of the documents you shared that I'll make available. This one rules three, I want to ask you about this. This one is pretty good. Let's just bring this up. That is a good one. Yeah, that's a good one. But red doesn't mean like red, just means changes. Yes, Alex is in red, right? Because I saw it as because there was another document I looked at that was everything was strike through, and things were changed in red. But this one pay attention to the red stuff. That's the stuff that changed, right?

Keita Jo:

Yeah, and these are the agricultural assessment value. So again, we talked about how this is a preferential assessment. So instead of being taxed at market value, you'd be assessed at these various values, depending on the use of the property and the program that an individual is entering into. These would be the rates per acre.

Lisa Miura:

So Jim, if I can, so let's say you have an acre, and you could sell it on the market for $180,000 for that acre vacant land, and we have that as your assessment. But if you are in a short term, dedicated intensive agriculture, so maybe you're doing sweet potatoes, and then that whole on that whole acre, and then your value would be $4,000 for that acre, instead of the $180,000. That's how the value per acre works. And I think there was confusion again, that this was the taxes per acre, not the value per acre.

Jim:

Okay, yeah, that's, I'm glad you clarified that, because I was seeing it that way. Initially,

Lisa Miura:

it's easy to there's so much information there

Jim:

is, and it changes depending on the program right, and the type of agriculture and and, yeah. So that's it's complex it is. So I think that's but that kind of cuts to the chase, because the tax rate doesn't change for your property. It's just what the evaluation is that changes. So,

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, I was like, well, Council has until June, 20 of each year to change the tax rates. It doesn't change much, especially in the agricultural or the homeowner. Yeah, that doesn't change very much at all.

Jim:

But I guess, yeah, I was to finish my thought, I guess I wasn't being clear either about what was going through my head. It's like, the, what did you say$180,000 value acre versus a$4,000 valued acre, the multiplier that's going to be used for the tax that I pay is going to stay the same, right? That's right. No, that's that's what? Because that's where my brain was going. It's like if, if you didn't apply for it, or you didn't even know, like, in the case you talked about, you didn't even know you could apply for it, and you're paying the taxable rate on 180,000 instead of 4000 people, right? So that's that's significant, okay, another incentive to get your phones ringing, phone calls, phone calls best or emails or website? Is there a website form to set up a way to contact you, or what's the best way?

Lisa Miura:

Well, so I'm, I'm good with emails. A lot of people like to have something in writing back from us. So emails are great, but if they want to be anonymous for the first 1, 2, 3 phone calls, which I find very common. There's a lot of concern that, oh, if you call the office, they're going to get your name and number, and they're going to know who you are, and we're not that deep

Jim:

You're going to send drones.

Lisa Miura:

We're not. We can't use drones. We're not allowed to use drones. We'll clear that up now, there's the record drones. It's not us. We don't even own a drone

Jim:

For the record people, no drones

Lisa Miura:

For the record.

Jim:

Yeah. So this is, this is, again, a great, a great sheet that has lots of details on it that I'll share, that you shared with me. I. But having even having spent a lot of time researching that prior to our call today or our conversation today, is I feel like I'd still want to meet with you one on one, because, yeah, it's just, it's my my mind is a little numb going through all this. But the one other document that you did share with me, speaking of mind numbing, Rules, 31, 31a, 31b, 34. So this one, I mean, I, I was nodding off just getting through the definitions.

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, us too. We're gonna have, we have a great Corporation Council, which is our attorney that works on these with the directors, and I'm gonna have to chalk up all of the rules in the County or your legalese, and it gets into the nitty gritty. So if the Council is handling the County code, which is the law, the Finance Director writes these, which is basically procedures our office has to follow and in order for anything to change in the rules, which is this, it has to go out to the public. So between the procedures and how difficult it is in inside the government is, I mean, it's government, so it's not super straightforward. It is. It's a snoozer, but it's the legal document. And some people in the public love this part of it like they like to get into that nitty gritty. We're more of a FAQ people that will take the head and summarize.

Jim:

Okay, but do you both know all the details that are in here?

Lisa Miura:

We've read through that quite a bit, so we could go through them. If there's any portion you want to look at what the the rules are supposed to do is take the code and it can't it can't conflict with the code. It can't totally overrule it. But it's supposed to be more of a guiding document to maybe help soften some areas for our office.

Jim:

Okay, so when would I? When would I as just kind of standard homeowner, ag producer, ever want to look at this, if I feel tell me what in what situation I want I might want to reference rules 31 through 34a?

Keita Jo:

I think, if you wanted more clarity, that was beyond what and if you're looking at the legislation right, the county code, if you wanted a little bit more detail, that's the document that you would refer to. Obviously, the FAQ is probably the most simple. Try to be as easy to understand as possible. But our guiding document is going to be the rules and regulations.

Jim:

Okay? So maybe after we meet and talk in more detail, that might be something I'd want to dig into. But Oh, the other one of the thing I wanted to ask is, under the values document had categories where, where are these categories? Uh, pulled from, like, 8H, and eightI and P and Q and 4B, where would I find those referenced?

Keita Jo:

Yeah, so those numbers are actually the coding that we use when we're entering it in, oh, internal, our management system, yeah. So sharing an internal document, okay, with everybody being as transparent as possible?

Jim:

Okay, great. I thought it might tie back to one of those, those rule documents. So, okay, cool, yeah, I'm gonna get those off the screen.

Keita Jo:

I do want to mention something about the rules that we appreciated, I think more than anything, was you had talked earlier about receiving a letter in the mail, and that letter was saying, hey, there's some ag changes that are coming. Here's a public hearing. We're going to talk about the rules and regs that we had drafted thus far. These are our guiding principles, or guiding document. The public came out in droves. It was really good to see that participation, and from that, we actually made some changes to the rules and regulations based on the feedback that we received. So it was really good to see government in action, that process in action. And it was important for the division to really let everybody know, all the stakeholders know, hey, this is coming. Here's an opportunity to speak. You may not have been able to go to the council meeting or, you know, provide testimony at that point in time, but here's where it starts to get a little bit more serious.

Jim:

Okay, no, good, good stuff. And that's, is that why there's the different versions? It's like, yes, yes. Started, started as 31 and then became 31A and B. And is that? What is that the iterations that happened as a result of those conversations?

Lisa Miura:

No, I think there was an old the non dedicated ag might have been the 31 or 30 and then it turned into these programs. But the definitely, the dates you see on a lot. Of our documents changed because of the changes in there. Another big change that came from the public that the Director took into account, as well as Council, is the minimum sizes. So there were, there was quite a bit that came back.

Jim:

Okay, but so these links that you sent me that I'm going to post for the podcast, notes. Will those be? Will those documents update? Or will you get different links? If those documents change, will, will the links still going to be good? As you make changes, they'll just refresh with the newest?

Lisa Miura:

Correct

Jim:

Great, perfect. So how many more staff have you hired?

Lisa Miura:

So how our office works when? And it's not gonna be for all the government, just for our office. I mean, we we do collect the taxes, so we're extremely mindful about where it's spent. Fact, we don't like to see where it all goes. But we did not hire any new staff for this agricultural program rollout for us, we usually implement and we see what's really needed. Maybe something else is going away, maybe something else is changing to digital. And so as of yet, there's been no new staff for the purpose of agriculture. There has been some positions that were in the pipeline from quite a while ago that might finally happen. We're not sure, but it's not specific to agriculture.

Jim:

Okay, so does that mean that if, if I call and set up a one on one appointment, it'll be with AI or chat GPT.

Lisa Miura:

We don't have that, you know, we're the, I think we're one of the last holdouts. So we don't even have that auto answering service where, you know, enter the last name of the person you want to call me and Keita we're we're not young enough to appreciate those types of things. We never remember names. So you will get a live person. As long as there's somebody in the office able to pick up the phone, it will be an appraiser, one of us, or the appraisal supervisor that would actually meet with you. We don't have any AI or chat GPT yet.

Jim:

Okay, now with it, does it, would it make sense to meet at our at the property, or does it, can you handle everything from your office or on the phone? Or is, is there any need, need to do that in person?

Keita Jo:

In office or on the phone? Is probably the best place initially, and then as you proceed with the process, the application is really where. You know, upon receiving the application and verifying the application for approval, we would go out and inspect the property at that point. But a lot of the discussion can happen. Okay, phone, email,

Jim:

Yeah, it sounds like an email you're fine with. So I think after the initial sounds like the initial, initial outreach is the phone and probably using the phone number on the FAQ is the place to start and share that. And then does that seem right? And start there, and then.

Lisa Miura:

I don't see a phone number. I have one on our other phone number they absolutely could call to get directly to the appraisal line, and I think that would be a better number.

Jim:

Okay, yeah, you're right. It just says the link to the website. I thought I saw a phone number on there, yeah, but yeah, do you want to just share the phone number to call?

Lisa Miura:

Yeah, nine, six, if it's in Hilo, 808-961-8354

Jim:

okay. And if it's outside of Hilo or it

Lisa Miura:

or in West Hawaii you can call 808-323-4881

Jim:

Okay. Does it all go to the Hilo office or, you know,

Lisa Miura:

We have an office in clinic the West Hawaii Civic Center. But if one line is busy, call the other one. They can help you anywhere.

Jim:

Okay, because everybody knows? It's the same on both sides of the island?. Okay,

Lisa Miura:

Yes.

Jim:

Got it. Well, that's that's good to know too. Yeah, I did see some notice yet. So we talked a little bit about fast and slow rotation forestry, good versus average versus poor pasture, is that, do you define that? Is there kind of a place where that's defined that makes it easier? Or you want to give us a sense of that?

Keita Jo:

Yeah. So that metric came along with the old historical program. There is a recommendation by one of the groups that was convened to go to one rate, to simplify that. That was a recommendation that wasn't taken up by Council this go around. We're hoping maybe in the next go around it might be something considered, but it was really tied to stocking rates and per acre and lands ability to support, you know, a certain number of head of cattle.

Jim:

Yeah. I mean, we are a ranching Island, right? So I guess I think that makes sense, is the nuances of ranching are much better understood and are more important here than than most places. We thank Lisa and Keita for sharing more details about these Hawaii County changes and for also sharing the direct contact information, which is listed in the show notes to help make the process easier for Hawaii Island agriculture producers. We hope you find this helpful. Mahalo. So I guess thoughts from either of you if you just want to share what what are ways to help reduce people's stress related to all this that you would suggest?

Lisa Miura:

I think, if you're doing active agriculture and you're concerned about anything you may have heard, call our office, talk to us. You're welcome to come down, but just give us a call or shoot us an email and we can talk about what you have going on in your property. I believe there's a lot more people who have come in and afterwards said, "Oh, that's not what I heard." And so it's not really that big of a deal. But until, you know, I get the anxiety it has caused a lot, and I'm I'm not discounting that at all. But if you can give us an opportunity to work with you, that would be great. And Jim, if we end up getting an ag workshop going with CTAHR, we'd like to be able to reach back out to you. And maybe when this podcast goes online, you can air it with it. And hopefully people that have more questions can come and see us, and maybe after they see us on your podcast, they won't think we're such bad people.

Jim:

Now that you dispeled the whole drone thing especially, yeah. Again, I'll reiterate what I think is became clear to me early on in our conversation, is these changes are really just to to reflect changes in agriculture that are more appropriate to the the island of Hawaii as well as Hawaii in general. So I think, I think that's kind of key. It's not not trying to "get" anybody, it's trying to be a better fit for what's really happening out there. So I think that's maybe a key point for folks to which, which I'm going to try to spread the word about in any ways that I can as well. So it sounds like I think I'm going to suggest every anyone that needs to do this call your office first and and get details and get help with how to fill out the paperwork and to certainly do it, maybe not wait until August of 2026.

Lisa Miura:

We would appreciate that.

Jim:

But to do that sooner rather than later, but knowing that, you know, no matter what the outcome, they will still have their. if they have ag beneficial rates now that those will continue through June 2029 so I think that's kind of comforting to a lot of people as well. And so I'll share that, but I think that's, that's the suggestion I'm going to make is, is call, have a one on one, see what makes sense for your situation, and then fill out the paperwork and get that turned in. Because I imagine you have a lot of applications to go through, 11,000. 11,000 maybe?

Lisa Miura:

Oh, it's over 1000 yeah, already, but not 11,000 yet. I think a lot of people, once that extension came, they were relieved to see it, yeah, but it's also good, because more people are coming into the program, so I think that's a great thing.

Jim:

Well, thank you both for taking the time to talk through all this and educate me. And you know, I think it's I found it really beneficial to understand a lot more details. Again, I still feel a little confused about some of the pieces and how that might apply to my situation, but I feel confident that once I reach out and talk to you folks about that situation, that we'll get it squared away, and it sounds like I'll be in the same or maybe even a better situation than I have been for all the years I've had the benefit of that preferential, preferential rate. So thank you for the preferential rate. Also, I think you're the folks I can thank for that. That's been great

Lisa Miura:

So that one we'll give, We gotta give to Counsel.

Jim:

All right. All right. Well, thank you again. Yeah, Mahalo and thanks again.

Lisa Miura:

All right, aloha.

Keita Jo:

Thank you so much

Lisa Miura:

Bye.

Thao:

The intention of these podcast series is to create a safe space for a respectful and inclusive dialog with people from across a broad and diverse spectrum involved in growing and making accessible the food we share together. A diversity of voices, perspectives and experiences can serve to deepen mutual understanding, to spark creative problem solving and provide insight into the complexities of our agriculture system. If you, our listeners, have experiences with Hawaii agriculture ecosystem, from indigenous methods, permaculture, smallholder farmers to large including multinational agricultural industrial companies and everywhere in between, and you would like to share your story. Please contact us. We welcome your voices and perspectives.