Ep 63. Learning to Listen with Donna Ching

At times when it can feel like people are at opposite extremes and cannot or will not agree, and anger and frustrations become barriers to moving things forward, Dr. Donna Ching from the Pacific Center for Collaboration can step in to find ways to reach consensus. Normally on Oahu, she had a work trip to the Big Island of Hawaii, so when she had some time between her facilitation workshops, we met at Liliʻuokalani Gardens in Hilo.

Brought to you by University of Hawaii College of Tropical Ag. and Human Resilience (CTAHR), and the Seeds of Well-being (SOW) Project. This podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network (FRSAN) grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and Hawaii Department of Agriculture.

Resources:

• Pacific Center for Collaboration 
• Ag Leadership's Hawaii Ag Conference
• Our podcast with Diane Ley and Molly Mamaril about the Ag Leadership Conference
• Hawaii Association of Nonprofit Organizations

Find out more about us:

• Seeds Of Wellbeing website
• Seeds of Wellbeing Resource Hub
• All the SOW links

Transcript

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Jim: 0:04

The views, information, or opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resilience, our funders, or any of the organizations affiliated with this project. Welcome to a Seeds of Well Being"Experts in the Field" podcast, featuring Hawaii agriculture producers and affiliates working in their field of expertise to support agriculture in Hawaii, in the United States, and in some cases around the world. These podcasts are made possible by a grant from the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resilience, also known as CTAHR, and the Seeds of Wellbeing, or SOW project, and is supported by a grant from the US Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture, and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture.

Donna Ching: 1:00

Now, one of the things I know is that when people are in conflict, they are anticipating that they're this far apart and with no common ground. So, my role as a facilitator, because this is facilitation training that I'm giving you, my role as the facilitator is to create the process structure that enables them to be able to hear each other, because when, so I have to create safety in terms of their relationship, because when they are able to hear each other, what they will realize is they are in that room together because they have lots of commonality. So I give them prompts as a facilitator. I manage the conversation so that they begin to see they're not at different ends, but in fact on a continuum they're actually quite close, and if I can give them enough opportunity to have this safe conversation, and have people you know. My job also is to legitimize people that I heard you, I heard what you said, and so did everybody else. Now, okay, so once you people feel heard and legitimized, they are able to unload the burden they carry of "This is my idea," and that opens up the potential for them to hear other people's opinions, and then potentially transform their own as a result of hearing what the other person is saying.

Jim: 2:40

At times when it can feel like people are at opposite extremes and cannot or will not agree, and anger and frustrations become barriers to moving things forward, Dr. Donna Ching from the Pacific Center for Collaboration can step in to find ways to reach consensus. Once she had some time between her facilitation workshops, we met at Lili'uokalani Gardens in Hilo. As you can hear from the intro, we had some trouble with what we called environmental issues, but carried on despite them, in order to hear perspectives on interpersonal communication. So, let's hear she offers some strategies on how to cut through the noise. We're in Hilo. We're decided to record here because you're on a Oahu normally, but you've come over to the Big Island for some of your work, so if you would just please introduce yourself. I know we have some background noise here from being in a park on Hilo Bay, and that's that's understandable, but we thought it was kind of a great setting to try to talk.

Donna Ching: 3:33

Aloha, my name is Donna Ching, and I am unbelievably going to be retired at the end of this month for 10 years from the University of Hawaii, where I was an Extension Specialist in agricultural leadership, and my primary job then was to coordinate the Agricultural Leadership program, and I did that for part of my career in 26 years of my 30 plus years, and I also was a person who did a lot of workshops in the community, in terms of leadership, as well as I'm really known for facilitation training and using facilitation to do strategic planning.

Jim: 4:25

We've actually had Ag Leadership. Diane Ley was on a podcast, as well as Molly, one of their graduates.

Donna Ching: 4:30

Oh yeah,

Jim: 4:31

and so we're there on a podcast, so we learned a little bit about their work and the conference that they put on, have been putting on for many years on Oahu, which is actually, I hear, is going to be on the Big Island this year. That's right. So, your involvement there with Ag Leadership, it sounds like that's been ongoing.

Donna Ching: 4:47

It went for 26 years, and I did 11 classes.

Jim: 4:51

Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes too to the Ag Conference and the podcast we did with Diane and Molly. Yeah, right. That might be useful for people that are interested, yeah.

Donna Ching: 4:59

Yes, but one thing that they're going to have me do until I get really decrepit and senile is my facilitation workshop. That is one of still one of the mainstays of our program, because it's a two day workshop where we really provide people with the tools to collaborate with each other, because that's what it all boils down to, you know, being respectful of other people, being willing to listen to their voices. People can get very, even though they're all there for the same reason, people can get very belligerent and very difficult to deal with, so the tools I'm giving them helps them to develop, you know, an environment that is safe and respectful, so they can have, you know, really productive conversations about what, you know, what they can do together. And so it was so funny, because they were so engaged in the first day and a half, really, and we're laughing, you know, we in my workshops, we have a lot of laughing, I'm a great believer in having fun while you work, and so it was, it was fabulous. And then, but we do a real case study that actually happened on another island many years ago to demonstrate to have them actually practice the skills they are practicing just in small groups and not but getting the whole group together to practice the skills in a real situation with conflict okay and so they all have to role-play these roles that of people that actually existed. So, what happened was they were all assigned these roles, and when we started off doing introductions and went around the room in that community group, okay, they, they were really difficult. It was, they were so challenging, and I was so surprised, because one after another, they were, you know, had attitude. They were, you know, really problematic. And when I was driving back, I mean, eventually we dealt with it, and you know, then we learned a lot of ways to deal with that kind of behavior, right. So that was a good teaching moment, but when we were driving back to the airport, one of the people who was the host said to me, "You know, the reason why you saw that is because," because I was thinking, I was so surprised,"is because that's the kind of behavior they experience in their own meetings," you know. This belligerence and pushing back on what other people want to do, and feeling that their own voices and opinions are more important than everybody else's. Everybody needs to know, have the tools to be able to successfully interact with others to get work done. That is one of the key exercises we do in the two day workshop, is helping people become active listeners, and you know that is one of the most important ways that you develop a relationship, and the ability to collaborate with others is being an active listener, and that's what people are not doing now, right, especially not listening to people who have different opinions from their own. But what I show in that workshop is how hard it is to be an active listener, but even more than that, you know, taking that next step to really open your mind up by saying, well, what, what, how would my opinion change if what this person is saying is true?

Jim: 9:06

So it was at this point in our conversation that it became impossible for me to be an active listener, because the noise levels in the park had become so extreme. So we decided to find another place in the park to settle in and talk some more. We moved over here, closer to the bay. Okay, and hopefully this is a little bit better. So, as you were saying, why don't you? Okay, there were some important points that you were trying to make I didn't want, want the weed wacker to overwhelm.

Donna Ching: 9:32

One of the things is that my father was in the legislature for 20 years. I told you from 59 to 79 when we became a state till 79 and a lot of the legislators who went to law school or went to profession had professional training came back and felt a calling to serve their community and so they they ran for office and were part of the Legislature. One of the things that happened is that these people were, were there not to make money, but to be of service, and so there was a really sense, a real critical mass of core values that they shared, and they changed Hawaii, you know. They, we were a very progressive state in the beginning. I mean, you know, we were one of the first states to ban abortion, for instance. You know, we were.. our constitution, if you look at it, is very progressive. So, you know, we had really our roots are are grounded in being, and you know, we really pretty much have universal health care, you know, and so all of these things taking care of the community, we in Hawaii understand, understand that, and I think maybe the legislation sometimes has lost track of that grounding. Well, for one thing, it's not made up of these people who have strong professional backup. My father never felt that it was really important not to have a full-time legislature, because he really felt there was real importance in people going out and working and living with their constituents to know, you know, what were the conditions they were living under. So now we have a lot of people who are, that's their full-time job, and it's not meant to be their full-time job. Anyway, so I wanted to bring that up. Okay, but the second thing, when you talk about social media, I think that has a tremendous impact on how we treat each other, and you know, there's great - don't tell, I mean, there's great value in the internet, but social media is questionable, I think, and especially for children, but what what I think is the thing that is most disturbing is the ability to distribute misinformation and really, and do it purposely, not necessarily just because you just heard something that was wrong, but because you want to influence what is happening in the country. Right. That is awful, but the, but the other worst thing is we have always had extremists in our country, always, you know. And what happened, though, is you know people at the ends of our bell-shaped curve, and, but you know, they were kind of on their own, you know, they didn't know other people, I mean, you know, who were like them, but the, the internet enabled them to gather together and now become a critical mass of people who really can do great damage to our country, and I think we're really seeing that, you know. Who actively engage in bringing down the structures that make our country strong, and you know it's very troubling. And so to me that's part of the reason why I do the workshop. I continue to do the workshop, and my husband sees, in spite of the fact that sometimes I get overextended, that it's important because we are the I'm on the side of the forces that are trying to really reestablish, you know, these core values that we have to have as a community to be able to survive and thrive, and part of it is taking care of our neighbors, you know, we don't have enough people who have a sense of, you know, part of responsibility is especially those of us who have resources to take care of the people who don't have as much as we do. It's just to me pretty appalling, actually. And so the, you know, what I'm trying to do is make organizations, you know, strong, especially those that have that deal in community, you know, deal in the work of trying to make community stronger, and you know, HANO, Hawaii Association of Nonprofit Organizations, many have trained all of them, but men, they just came up with a big report that was on the front page of the newspaper a couple days ago, and they are showing that nonprofits are struggling right now, because you know, lack of federal dollars, lack of state dollars, and these are the people that they are the social safety net, and so once that's gone, really, it's going to be very difficult, more, even more difficult in the state when those safety nets are gone, you know. So, trying to make these nonprofits stronger, and you know, and then preaching the word about how we have to be more active listeners, we have to really engage with our, the people who don't agree with us, so that we can really begin to, you know, find common ground and work together, that that is an important job, I think. So,

Jim: 15:32

So, if I wanted to sign up for be part of one of your workshops, yes, is that possible, or does it have to be sponsored by an organization?

Donna Ching: 15:39

Okay, so what has happened is part of the reason I haven't had more open workshops is I lost my very best venue as a result of Covid. It's $550

Jim: 15:54

for the two days,

Donna Ching: 15:54

for the two days I all the meals, and I have a book that I normally sell for $75 so the book itself is a real resource, and a lot of people feel that that not only is workshop important, but the book is important for them to go back and practice. Okay. So I'm going to be after I finish these series of meetings, that's my next goal, is to find a new workshop space. Because so I, I have a website, and I have to tell everybody when they're, I get these requests regularly, is check on the website, because it's called Pacific Collaboration, okay.com, Yep, and

Jim: 16:37

So right now you're on island to work with the aquaculture communities of Hawaii, so what are you seeing as you work with Hawaii aquaculturists that might be helpful to share with our Hawaii ag community, and maybe along the lines of, you know, you talking about bringing people together and helping helping folks have empathy, or at least sympathy for other perspectives, and, in my mind, I saw, like, a Venn - is it Venn diagram with two circles that you try to push closer and closer together, the more overlap? Yeah, right. Yeah. So, what are you seeing related to your work with Hawaii aquaculture?

Donna Ching: 17:13

Well, I think it is very - it's very admirable that they decided that the top down approach to regular rules and regulations doesn't work. It makes a lot of people unhappy. So the idea of doing it from the bottom up, having the community create initially the rules and having them then go through a policy review stage, and before they get implemented, it's very admirable, but it's very difficult. You know, when I got trained in conflict resolution, for instance, okay, we talked about the three Cs, and the first C was consensus. And back then this was back in college, I didn't know what that meant, I had to go and look in the dictionary, and it said unanimity, and we never used that word, the big C that we used all the time, and what made America great was compromise, right, and that is when people come together and they really try to listen to each other, and then they accommodate one another, and that's what Benjamin Franklin said in one of his famous quotes, you know, it's about accommodation to one another, because we're a country have always been a country of great diversity. Okay, and the last C is compartmentalization, where you know you, you can't, you can't have a relationship based on compartmentalization, but it's when you compartmentalize the things you don't agree on and never talk about it. Okay, so consensus, okay, and so people now use it all the time. "We're going to do consensus decision making," and they don't realize that in the truest sense, consensus does mean unanimity. It's a higher standard than compromise, and, and, and it can happen, but it takes tremendous amount of time normally, and a real willingness on both sides to really listen and accommodate one another, and most people just don't have that kind of commitment. So, what happens then is what we see in the community when they say consensus is that it becomes then defined as majority rules. That's what happens. But the people who really know what it means, some of them go into situations and they think, oh, people are committed to work toward a consensus outcome, and they're not, and they get disappointed. Okay, so I call it what it is. In my workshop, I am always working toward an agreement everyone can live with a support, that's what my always my goal is, but I always have a fallback position, and the group decides what that is, 75% agreement, 66 and two thirds. And I could tell you stories about how it's being, how it's, it's been used, but but that's what I'm, I'm working toward, you know, an agreement everybody can live with and support, and so it really requires time to get rid of those asks, because it's easy to, it's kind of easy, if you, you know, you know what you're doing, to find those areas of commonality. It's those minini things that really hold up decisions, and it so it really takes really listening to people you know, and finding out, well, what is it going to take then for you to get on board? Can we maybe integrate what you're saying into the final solution, or as a result, many times in meetings I facilitate as a result of really listening and honoring what people say, they are willing to let go of what they're holding on to and go along with the group. In facilitation, my underlying assumption is there there is potential for agreement, and I just have to create the structure that enables the group to find enough commonality, so that they can reach an outcome that everybody can live with and support.

Jim: 21:30

Am I able to buy your book? Yes, and go through the process, and will I be able to utilize the tools pretty effectively, or does it require a workshop and a facilitator?

Donna Ching: 21:41

I do sell the book, and I can definitely sell it to you. The workshop really helps, and I tell people that if they buy the book and then are able to take the workshop, then I take $75 off the registration fee, because you already have the book. This book that I wrote is is a compilation of all that I've learned in my, my work, my life work. Okay, so, so it's that, so it's very.. there's.. they're all the best tools, everything that I found that helped me to be successful. It used to be a three ring binder, and I kept changing the things as I learn new things, and when I decided that it had to be a book, because I was not going to be around anymore, and all the things I learned would be lost, and they're, they're good books on facilitation, but mine has some stuff that is very unique, you know, I have a - I have a case study that has three columns. The middle is the actual narrative in the case. The left side has the tools that you should use, and the right side has what you would write on the group memory, the notes. So, it, I've never seen anything like that in another facilitation book, so it gives you the real nuts and bolts.

Jim: 23:07

I'm curious, are you willing to share a little bit about active listening that maybe we could share with our Hawaii ag producers that may help with some conflict resolution they may be feeling or may be running into in their work or personal lives, even

Donna Ching: 23:22

Well, the exercise I have in active listening is I give everybody a handout that has what I, what I try to make really simple declarative statements that you know,"abortion is a good thing." Those are the ones that you know"we should legalize marijuana." I mean, simple declarative statements, and they have to tell me if they strongly agree

Jim: 23:51

Do you match opposites or like mind? Opposites. it's on the, you know, like scale to strongly disagree, and that's how I match people up on issues that you know,

Donna Ching: 24:03

Opposites, and I do it overnight between the two days, and they come back, and so they know they're going to be talking to somebody who's on the opposite end, and I give them an opportunity to spend three minutes. One is A, one is B, and you can do this yourself, you know, when you have a where A speaks first for three minutes and and says what they think about the the topic, why they feel that way. Okay, B cannot ask questions, cannot interrupt, they just state their position. Okay, then be B has to state in their own words what they heard. Okay, now this is a powerful activity, because when you state something in your own words, it makes it real for you, and also by doing that, it opens up the potential for you to actually then really hear what the other person said, and sets the stage for a potential transformation of your opinion. You know what I told you earlier. Well, how much would my thinking change if what they're saying is real? It sets it up for that kind of situation. But anyway, so they state it in their own words, and then they switch roles, and B says for three minutes what - how would they feel about the issue, and then A says it back to them in their own words, what they think,

Jim: 25:43

And is there a time limit on when they state it back, or is that

Donna Ching: 25:46

Three three minutes? Everything is three minutes, yeah, and they finish in 12 minutes. Everybody finishes mostly in 12 minutes, but in the debrief, this is what they discover. Number one, we had lots of points of likeness, you know, we didn't realize, but we had lots of points of likeness, so they realized that instead of being on two ends of the continuum, they are actually much closer than that. Every single time I do this exercise, there is a dyad or two that are actually on the same end of the continuum because they read the question differently. Now I try very hard to make the sentences without, with simple declarative statements, so that you can't misread it, but it really helps them realize that everything can be misread, everything that you hear or read can be misinterpreted or interpreted a different way from somebody else, and that's an important lesson to learn. The other thing is, I, you know, they discover how hard it is to listen that way. I mean, we never listen that way. I had a, I had a communication handout from way long ago, and it says that, you know, in the, in a day, you hear, you really, really hear half of what is around you. You, you know, you acknowledge half of that, and you actually remember half of that, and it turns out that in a day, 7% of what you hear do you retain if you're lucky, and I, so I always tell them that's why you have the book, because if you're only going to retain 7% of this workshop, that will be very helpful. Because we don't listen carefully enough that we don't, we really don't hear what the other person is saying, so it takes that kind of concentration to find those areas of agreement, and that's not the way we listen when we're in a conflict, right? And I always say to remember the last time you had a conflict with someone you love, probably your, your partner or your child, you know, when they're talking about their position, what are you doing? And almost everybody says, I'm thinking about the arguments for how I'm going to come back, right? So, you're listening in exactly the wrong way to find common ground. Okay, so you know all of these lessons are learned through this exercise. It's a real simple exercise, but they really learn how important it is, and how difficult it is to really be an active listener, and that that is the beginning for me of being a good facilitator, but for them of being actually just a better person in terms of their interactions with other people, not just in conflict, but you know, in terms of enhancing their relationships.

Jim: 28:53

We thank Donna for sharing lessons from her decades of working in Hawaii to help folks examine their differences and gain perspectives to resolve them, so now let's hear some closing thoughts from Donna. As the noises increase again here, and you have to head out, any final words you want to share for Hawaii ag producers?

Donna Ching: 29:14

Hang in there, man. But the only way that you can do that is to collaborate with one another,

Jim: 29:22

and I imagine you would also share, learn, and use the tools of active listening.

Donna Ching: 29:30

Yes, definitely, definitely, yeah. And you know, so many of our local farmers, they're not, they're not talkers, they're not communicators, but they have to especially get better at that, because you know you get in a bad way and you get into this depression and difficulty because you're not sharing with other people, and it's really important that you are able. To communicate to your support system, because without that support system it's going to be very difficult for you to survive.

Thao Le: 30:10

The intention of these podcast series is to create a safe space for respectful and inclusive dialog with people from across a broad and diverse spectrum involved in growing and making accessible the food we share together. A diversity of voices, perspectives, and experiences can serve to deepen mutual understanding, to spark creative problem solving, and provide insight into the complexities of our agricultural system. If you, our listeners, have experiences with Hawaii agriculture ecosystem, from indigenous methods, permaculture, small holder farmers, to large, including multinational agricultural industrial companies, and everywhere in between, and you would like to share your story, please contact us. We welcome your voices and perspectives.

Donna Ching: 31:05

I, you know, I said, you know, you know, every time I don't want to do something, I say, you know, I'm retired, right?

Jim: 31:13

Okay, now we've moved around a few times because of all the the activity going on in this beautiful park. Oh, use one, one more. Thank, that was for an exclamation point, just there.