Episode 226: I'd Like To Try Treating The Psychosis

This week we are joined by our great friend Dave Jordan (@nonhumanaudio)! We wrap up Season Ten of the podcast with Alex Garland's eleventh feature film 28 Years Later: The Bone Temple (2026) and discuss wild animals, zealots, and ranking his filmography. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, and welcome to I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, a podcast where two best friends are watching and analyzing and talking about the work of writer, director Alex Garland.

SPEAKER_05 0:11

It's true. And uh I'm Nick, who loves Alex Garland.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

And I'm William, I really love Alex Garland. And today we are doing I like him a little bit more than Nick.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

William's obsessed upset because I had the last Dr. Pepper, but you may or may not have heard him say over data.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

And I don't want to start over. That's the energy I'm on right now. So we're keeping it. Today we're gonna wrap up season 10 finale with the 2025 film 28 years later. Oh, 2026. 2026. 28 years later, The Bone Temple.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

And we are joined by, as you already heard on the intro, our delicious great friend Dave Jordan.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Hey guys, how's it going, Dave? It is going okay. For those of you listening, it is Friday. So the work week is done. I'm only working two days next week. Oh, that's awesome. Because I'm going out of town.

SPEAKER_05 1:03

So am I actually. I'm going out of town as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Yeah. Where are you going?

SPEAKER_05 1:06

I'm going to Denver to see the strokes I read about. Oh, that's not where I'm going. That's so cool, though. That's cool though.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Where are you going? Yeah. I'm going to Indianapolis for a pedal show.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Well I picked Nick, I meant. Are you going to see the Colts play? Well, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Is it football season? It's not football season. No. That's winter. That's fall. Fall. Yeah. No, I um I did this last year as well, but I my pedal company is one of the sponsors of a music fest. Oh, nice. Called Post Fest. Okay. Which is it started as like a post-rock, post-metal kind of mostly uh instrumental kind of thing. You know, think like Russian circles and more kind of like ambient explosions in the sky kind of stuff. Sure. Yeah. Um, and but since then it's just kind of like grown to say one Nick's gonna get well, so it's you got it. It's just grown more now to just be kind of like underground music. So like there's a lot of punk and metal, and and uh so yeah, I am going in a pedal capacity, but it is not strictly a pedal event.

SPEAKER_05 2:09

There's only a couple so there's actual bands playing stages and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Yeah, it's a it's a two and a half day music festival. That is cool, nice. And there's uh a couple of us as music gear companies that are sponsors that are setting up as like vendors.

SPEAKER_05 2:23

Oh fun.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Yeah, that's great. So the bands and also the the attendees can what days is this? It is Thursday, Friday, and Saturday of next week.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

I think I was supposed to say which days is it? Not what days is it? What days are the this?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

What days is it?

SPEAKER_05 2:40

So do you have like for the band schedule at your booth? Can you be like, this band uses this pedal, this band uses this pedal, this band as a page.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

Oh, do like a wine pairing. If you like this band, do you listen to this Lou Lawrence?

SPEAKER_05 2:55

As used on.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Yeah, I mean, theoretically I could. Or as used by. Um Dave said theoretically that means he's not going to, and he hits the code. Why? I'm just saying, maybe next year.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Well, I mean, it's it's tough to know because I don't also know what any of the bands are going to be using ahead of time. Uh, I do actually weirdly know that at least like one of the guys in one of the bands like has one of my pedals. Whether or not he's gonna be using it on stage, I don't know. Yeah. Um, last year, actually, the band that opened the fest had a malfunction of one of their pedals that they had on stage. So they borrowed one of mine to like fill in. So over the course of the weekend, I was at that like last year, I was able to be like, well, if you if you saw Glacier on Thursday, Liz from Glacier was playing this pedal.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

So you just gotta check out their boards after they play, before they play, and then you can jot it down. Yeah. So what days what days are you in Colorado? I'm leaving on Wednesday, uh, getting back on Friday. It's just a quick so we're all off work next week.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

You guys want to know what cool reason I took off of work? No reason at all. So Thursday and Friday, I asked for PTO because Thursday is employee appreciation day, and at work they bought everybody tickets and rented a box out for one of the, I think, a baseball game.

SPEAKER_05 4:20

Okay. Yeah, ice topes, sure.

SPEAKER_04 4:22

So in my head, I wigged out and I was like, well, the people at work that I wish I was friends with and I could sit with, I probably wouldn't be able to because they don't like me the way I like them. So I would be stuck with like other people. I'd get in my head, I'd be uncomfortable. I'm stuck in the skybox with like management having a breakdown in front of everybody, and I can't get up and like leave. So I would like crash out or panic or something.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

So as an adult, you took a day off.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

I just booked, I'm like, nah, I got stuff to do. So I just completely avoided the day entirely. And to make it look nonsuspicious, I took the Friday after it too.

SPEAKER_05 5:01

You let the anxiety win.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

Absolutely. 100%. I just said I won't be that person that day. That's all right. And I think it's for the better. And I nailed it because in my head, I was like, well, I have some new hires on my team that I'm getting along with. I can sit with them. I'm being a pussy. I need to relax. It's totally never as bad as you think it is. And you have people that would like your company. And then I was like, you know what? It will be as bad as you think it is. I've had a mental break at work recently. You should totally bail. So I bailed, and then I told this story to one of the friends I'm talking about, and they go, Oh, yeah, and I'm also not gonna be there because I have a work thing. And I was like, I was right. I nailed it, I was fucking right, and I need to act like this every time and avoid everything because I'm right.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

I mean, there's an element of self-care there, to be honest.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Like they're legitimately, I'm being kind of cautious in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

No, like you're you're being down on yourself and being self-deprecating because of the situation, and it's easy and it's funny, and it makes you feel better about your anxieties, but like there's also nothing wrong with just like taking a step back and being like, this situation is going to make me uncomfortable, and I don't have to go through with it. There's nothing to be gained. Like, I'm not gonna get out on the other side of this and be like, everything's fine, and now I'm best friends with everybody. Yeah, so it's okay to just kind of be like, you know what? I'm not, I'm just not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05 6:31

Yeah, and you've been talking about taking some time off anyway.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

And that's the thing is I was like, I do need the days, and I can be very productive. I gotta renew my driver's license, get an oil change, like there's real stuff I can do. Yeah, and then after this, maybe the first week of August, I'm gonna take like a full week off. Yeah, that'd be nice. I have a shit ton of PTO and I gotta start using it because I'm getting burnt out and sleepy. Yeah. I have a house update that kind of pertains to the podcast a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

So, because I moved, live on the other side of the river, but it's really close to the river, so bunnies, coyotes, and things. The other night, reasons doesn't matter, it was like pretty late at night. I had to go to my car, so I went outside to my driveway to get something out of my car, and it was just me still silent night, and then just one fucking coyote, yeah, just like hanging out, walking around, and I immediately split second. I was like, I'm fucking Tom Cruise and collateral. Like, I'm definitely Vincent. Of course I am, but that's all I thought of is like Chris Cornell singing in the background, like, I'm fucking Tom Cruise. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

Yeah, because it is during that part with the audio slave song.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

That's all I thought of is like, yeah, I'm Tom Cruise and collateral right now. That's totally yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:44

Not Jamie Foxx's guy.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

Uh-uh. Yeah, you're the guy who needs to be taught on how to get pussy. Nah, I'm Tom Cruise. I'm fucking Vincent.

SPEAKER_05 7:51

The guy that keeps on talking about that vacation he's gonna take and he's never gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 7:54

Nah, I'm not that guy. Yeah, I'm Tom Cruise.

unknown 7:58

Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

In my underwear, getting like a random, like I don't know what it was out of my grab for a hybrid DVD you left in your car. Yeah, no, I'm fucking Tom Cruise. Oh, it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_05 8:10

But yeah, they do. I mean, you're close to the river, but they come out everywhere. Literally every night. Oh, yeah, they're halling.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

But like this time was the first time I was like outside with them at the exact same time. Yeah, yeah. They're way bigger than I thought they were. Yeah, depending on the thing. Yeah, it's up day one.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

It's a good healthy boy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Yeah, animals that you never really see up close when you see them up close. Uh, we have this story um many, many, many years ago. Uh, I took Sabrina to San Diego for a show. Nice, and she didn't think about the fact that San Diego is on the ocean. The Pacific Ocean is right there. So we're like pulling the plane is pulling in, and she sees the ocean, and she's like, What is that? And I was like, it's the ocean. Why people come here? And she was like, she was like, We can go to the beach, and I was like, Yeah, yeah, sweetie, it's San Diego. Yeah, yeah. Like, we're we're yeah, it's the Pacific Ocean. Yeah, if we can go to the beach if you want to. I mean, we can pack for it. Yeah, but like we can go walk on the beach. So we we go to the beach and like we walk out on like one of the boardwalks or something, and a seagull lands like right next to her, yeah, yeah. Because the seagulls go into people are fishing off the beach, so the seagulls are trying to catch the fish, and also people are just feeding them, yeah. And those birds are big, yeah. You never think about it because big wings, you know, from however far away up in the sky, yeah. And one landed right next to her. Oh, yeah, and she like lost her mind, she like freaked out about it because it was so big, yeah. And I was like, Yeah, no, that's that's how big they are. Like, these are birds that like eat fish out of the ocean, like they're full-ass fish, exact birds.

SPEAKER_05 9:47

Yeah, they're big. Yeah, you just don't think about it, and they're loud too, they're really fucking loud. Nick, what animal have you seen in the wild lately? Oh, that's a good question. Don't fucking lie. No, I saw I see peacocks every day at my neighborhood. I went for a run this morning and I saw we have a one-footed peacock who I'm always glad survives, but he's this older male, and we I call him uh me and Kira call him Simon Pegg because he has a peg like we're uh cute. And actually, like a couple months ago, uh probably like two, yeah, two months ago, the street up uh north from us, someone was speeding and they hit one of the peacocks, and all those all those people in the neighborhood fucking went you know ballistic and were really mad about it and made the village make like peacock crossing signs that are around. But uh Kira and I were really worried, we're like, oh fuck, hopefully it wasn't Simon Pegg because he only has one fucking foot, but he gets around pretty well. But luckily he survived, and so I saw that. But it wasn't him that got hit? No, okay, it wasn't him. He's good. I saw him this morning.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah, so yeah, it feels like weird and like obvious to say, but like until you get up close and personal with like a real full-size animal like that.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Yeah, like we're used to our dogs and our cats and stuff, but like that I get that a lot with birds because when you see them in the sky, it's easy to be like it's just a bird. Like, even hawks, like they're way bigger when you see them close. You're just like, Jesus, a lot of these birds are. Have you ever seen a bald eagle in person? Oh, yeah. At the zoo, I've seen uh like a gold eagle.

SPEAKER_05 11:21

We just had some we were just up in Washington. Yeah, Nick's all, and yeah, they're all over the place up there. We were on the beach, and there were three dead fish carcasses like 10 feet from us, and the bald eagles are coming in and swooping up.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

They're like the size of a person.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

Yeah, they're fucking huge. It's insane. They're huge.

SPEAKER_05 11:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the boy rode one in 5-0 goes west.

SPEAKER_05 11:41

That's true. Yeah, uh, that's a real thing. But yeah, and Kira's got a thing with birds, she's like, oh, they're just dinosaurs, just look at them. You're like, oh yeah, they are. Yeah, watch a roadrunner. That's Jurassic. Or chickens, just chickens. You're like, oh yeah, it's a fucking miniature T-Rex that we now eat. So not only did the dinosaurs die, they lasted hundreds of millions of days.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Their ancestors are my chicken.

SPEAKER_05 12:04

But their ancestors are our chicken nuggets. And you could get them in the shape of their ancestors, you could kill them, put them in the shape of their ancestors, and we burn their dead bodies to get around. Talk about total fucking dominance over the We owned their asses. Those poor, poor dinos. They did nothing to deserve it.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

These stupid little arms, a bunch of idiots.

SPEAKER_05 12:26

Poor dinos. But that's fun that you're going to the pedal thing. I like that you give us that update because I was gonna ask you anyway. But yeah, that should be a good time. Are you going to see The Odyssey? The movie. This is like the same movie that's coming out. It came out today or yesterday or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, uh, we'll definitely see it at some point. We don't get to the theater nearly as often as we used to because of life and stuff. But this is one that yeah, Sabrina asked if I was interested in I was like, no, I'm definitely interested. I would love to see it in IMAX. Yeah. If we'll get the time to see it, hopefully it will be in the theater more than two weeks or something. I mean, yeah, it seems like you say that, but like there are huge blockbuster movies that are not in the theater for nearly long enough.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

I think this one paid to keep Spider-Man out or something.

SPEAKER_05 13:14

Exactly. So so Spider-Man comes out. Probably so Spider-Man comes out at the end of the month. Yeah. Right? The 30th. The following or two weeks from now. Two weeks from now. And it's not an IMAX. Because the Odyssey has exclusivity for I think three or four weeks. Okay. So yeah, you'll uh you will be good.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

That's good. That's good. Yeah, no, I would I would love to. I mean, you know, I saw the first teaser, but like Chris Nolan is one that like I don't need to be convinced to go see his movies. Like, I'm gonna see his movies. Yeah, all I need to know is that one is coming out and I know I will see it.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

Yeah, exactly. Um yeah, I got tickets for Saturday. Nice, nice, but I don't get to see it like Nick gets to see it. Nick, how are you gonna see the Odyssey?

SPEAKER_05 13:57

I'm gonna see it in 70 millimeter when I'm in Denver to see the strokes. How fucking cool is that? That is cool. So that should be pretty fun. But I have to wait until Thursday. So not that you can't spoil the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

It's 70 millimeters, not IMAX format, right?

SPEAKER_05 14:12

Yes, it's the it's the full frame.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Right.

SPEAKER_05 14:14

Yeah, so it's and so this is the first film that's shot entirely on that format.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Right. So This is the only narrative.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Only narrative film. Yeah. So in Denver, or not, well, in Colorado, they have two proper 70 millimeter IMAX film projectors. One of them's in Colorado Springs, one of them's in Denver. And it was just a coincidence. I was like, oh, we're going up to see this band.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

So now shit, the Odyssey's cards. Are you going to have to sit through um reel changes?

SPEAKER_05 14:46

No, they that they have a way of that they do it with the platters. Okay. They have like I mean the platters are fucking.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Because I remember I went and saw Star Wars episode two in IMAX. Oh wow. And they had to edit the movie down to fit on one IMAX reel.

SPEAKER_05 15:05

Oh w yeah, it's come a long way. Yeah, that's crazy. I've never heard of that at all.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

So I'll I'll never forget that. Because I was in the bathroom after the movie and heard two guys talking about it. And I had already seen it a bunch of times because I was in college and we were nerds, so like we wouldn't saw that movie a lot. Oh yeah. And these guys had the wrong storyline. Like, because of the way that it was edited, these guys thought that there was like story things that weren't true. Interesting. And I was like in the bathroom listening to these guys talk about it. I was like, I didn't even think about this because I've already seen this movie a bunch of times. I know what the story is. These guys think the story's different because it was it had to be edited down to fit on one reel. Because at the time, that's what that's why I asked. Because changing an IMAX reel takes like 30 minutes or something.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

These guys don't even know we got the information from Dexter Jetster.

SPEAKER_05 15:59

Yeah, they nowadays it's it's more seamless. And yeah, I've seen I saw Interstellar and IMAX. It's not it wasn't completely shot on IMAX, but yeah, there's no uh wackiness.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Well, but inner Interstellar may have been digital projection.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

No, no. I went to I was I went to Denver to see it on seven later. So I saw the the yeah, I this one theater I've seen on film because it has the film projector.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Pull your film big dick out real quick, Nacon.

SPEAKER_05 16:28

But I saw Interstellar, I saw Dark Knight Rises, I saw now. Here's the big one right now. Here it is. Fucking Transformers 2, what's it called? What's the second one called?

SPEAKER_04 16:39

Revenge of the Fallen.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

Revenge of the Fallen. It had a single scene. That that is that was the second one?

SPEAKER_04 16:45

Yeah. I thought Revenge of the Fallen was the third one? Dave. Did you listen to the podcast, Dave Dave? The third one is Dark of the Moon, the best of the sequels. We all know this. With the Chicago. What's the fourth one? The fourth Extinction. And the fifth one is the last night. We're thinking of the Anthony Hart.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

I was thinking the fourth one was the last night.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Oh Dave, that's the fifth one. Clearly. Just embarrassing yourself at this point. Oh my gosh. I guess we gotta run them back.

SPEAKER_05 17:16

Let's start with this.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Bonus season of the podcast. Dave watches the Transformers.

SPEAKER_04 17:22

Okay, so we said this jokeily, but if you guys want to do that, I'll damn like the fucking now. I'll cancel the weekend plans to watch this with Dave Jordan. That would be great, actually. So I could talk about how amazing Transformers 3 is. It's so fucking good, man. I love it. Speaking of awesome movies, Dave. Yes. You watched Civil War. I did. You've never seen Civil War before? Did you watch it before or after John Morgan was on our podcast talking about it?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

I watched it before because You knew he was gonna come on and talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 17:55

Sorry, I don't know why.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

No, you know, I knew he was gonna come on and talk about it, but like Nick, what do you think Dave thought about? I think because I I mean I I think we had talked about it when I was on previous, but I think I was initially going to wait to hear you guys talk about it before deciding if I was gonna watch it. Okay. And then I think I just kind of got to the point where I was like, you know what? I I think it'll be okay. It might be really stressful. Yeah. But like I'm far enough removed from the place I was in when it came out that I can now not have it be compounding on top of this everyday panic that I was already having at the time.

SPEAKER_05 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

And you guys talked about that when it came out and why that was so difficult for a lot of us.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Um now, again, just even a couple years later, I was like, I think it's okay. I think I'm in the place now where like I can actually watch it and I'm prepared for whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

And yeah, it there was still elements of it wasn't entirely not what I thought it was. Okay, but it was at least partially not what I thought it was. I didn't even know that it had the journalism angle.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Like I didn't I didn't know anything about it. All I knew was Alex Garland, it's called Civil War, it's about the US I was like, I'm not watching that. I'm not doing it. Yeah. So yeah, I was so in the dark about so much of it. But there was still elements of it where I was like, ooh, I don't know, this is not this is not, and it's not supposed to be comfortable, it's not supposed to be fun, obviously. Um, but there was still some of it where I was like, this is a little too still a little too close.

SPEAKER_04 19:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

But I've had that with a few things like Alien Earth related to Alex Garland, um, leading up to the last election, I was doing a reread of Judge Dredd. And I was like, I can't do this. Like in this political moment in our world in our life, I was like, I cannot read about the US becoming a fascist dystopia. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

Satire or not, can't do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

But yeah, I I really I did really like Civil War. I don't know that I maybe ever need to re-watch it.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

I'll I'll do that for you, Dave. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

For how good it is and how well it's made, I'm not sure that there's like more in there that I didn't already get.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

And if I'm like really like I I don't know, I guess I'm just like I guess if like if I was in the mood for like American dystopia stuff, I would actually probably more likely choose to reread Judge Dread or something.

SPEAKER_05 20:40

I can't say that I never will, but like I and we covered the basis on our conversation pretty well, you know.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

So you don't listen to John Morgan talk about it. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I mean that's what I kept saying to him. I was like, I do think this is the movie. People thought it was a little bit more than like I can't completely dismiss I still stand by like I don't know if the good guys won in the the the end of that movie. I don't know if the people that shot the president in the face are the guys that I'm happy are in the White House right now. Yeah, because we don't know. Like, I'm not, I don't get that feeling of like, hell yeah, we got him. I'm like, yeah, who got him?

SPEAKER_02 21:15

No, and I think it's a little nervous. I think it's incredibly smart and well handled in that way. Yeah. Of just like, he does a really good job of not being like, like, yeah, the president's a fascist as far as we're we know. But like that's also just kind of like what we're being told.

SPEAKER_05 21:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

And we don't actually really know who's the good guys and who's the bad guys.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

And both sides call each other fascists anyway. The the other side uses it against the other side, it's just like, yeah, yeah. So who knows?

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Yeah. I think it's really, really well done in that regard. It's just kind of like you're not really on anybody's side.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

And that's the yeah, I think that adds to the bummer of it of like, yeah, I don't need to watch that again.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

And even the the journalists, you're kind of like I mean, like, yeah, you guys are trying to tell the story, but you're also being very opportunistic. Oh, they're they're they're mercenaries, basically. You know, and it's like, and I think that's kind of part of what's a little tough. Like, I'm really glad I watched it, but yeah, there's there's not much redeeming in the movie of just like, yeah, there's nobody to root for, yeah, really, you know, except Kaylee Spinney and those jeans. Everybody's everybody's damaged, everybody's fucked up, everybody's there for the wrong reasons. Like, and there is interesting things to be said there, but it's also kind of like uh this is everything's fucked and everybody sucks. I don't re-watch Requiem for a Dream, you know, like high school Us was like this is the saddest thing ever.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

I gotta watch it. Run it back. Oh, I watched that movie a lot. Well, that's what and that's the joke now as an adult. I think a lot of guys there there is a time in your life where you're like, I think this is the saddest movie ever, you won't watch it again, and then now it's like I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Well, certainly with something like Requiem for a Dream, and like for as good as Civil War is, and as well as it's made, something like Requiem for a Dream stylistically was such a bomb drop that there's so much there from a craft perspective that you've like probably never seen before. Certainly, I was in college when that came out. You guys were a little younger, like there's so much in that movie where you're just like, wow, this guy is like swinging for the fences, he's succeeding. I've never seen anything like this. Um, and that rewards a lot of re-watching till you get to the point where like that stops being its own reward, yeah. That the observation of that craft, yeah. And then you're just like, oh, now I just feel dirty every time I watch this because now I'm just sucked into the horrific lives that these characters are living. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 23:51

They've used that technique where the camera is attached to them. I'm pretty sure they did that on the Hulk in Age of Ultrons. So it's like, I don't need to watch Rick Whip Recreate for this cool camera technique. It's in it's on the Hulk. It's it's in Bone Temple. Yeah, it's on the Alpha. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, yeah, I don't gotta run it back. I've seen it everywhere now.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

No, is he the first person to get it? Is it? I don't know. He may have been the first person to do it. It was definitely the first time I saw it.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

It was the first I I'm sure it's one of those where like someone might have done it, but that's like the full sequence.

SPEAKER_05 24:26

Yeah, like that was a thing. No, it was huge, it was a big thing. Yeah, it might have been done in like music videos before.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Maybe, but um, but to that extent and in that way, that was that was a big deal. And then the score, let's not forget the score.

SPEAKER_05 24:39

Oh, yeah. I remember there is a behind the scenes. Uh I I remember watching the behind the scenes of that movie, and it does cover that that camera being attached to. So yeah, it's it was a big deal. So we're I'm glad you watched Civil War. Yeah, I'm glad you liked it. But I want to talk about 28 years later, the first one first, and your thoughts on that before we get into Bone Temple, just so we can establish that. Yeah, because we already talked about it last week. But what did you think about 28 years later? The Danny Boyle.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

So I watched it twice. I rewatched it in anticipation, in anticipation of rewatching Bone Temple for this. And I was like, I want to refresh myself. First time I watched it, I didn't like it. Yeah. Like I just straight up didn't like it. I thought it was like messy, I didn't think it was scary. Second time I liked it a little bit more, but I still don't think it's very good. You guys had some interesting takes on it, actually, that I I hadn't quite considered the whole like nationalism thing.

SPEAKER_05 25:45

Yeah, that makes it more interesting, but I don't, but I I don't like Danny Boyle.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Yeah, and and I think I just don't.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

I I don't like Danny Boyle. And but like being a person that like this is funny way you like I need to get this out. That's what that sounded like. It's like, guys, I need to get a stuff like this. I don't like Danny Boyle.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Sure, and that's fair. I don't necessarily love Danny Boyle either. I it's the biggest part of that movie, is what it feels like. I do love 28 Days, and I love Sunshine.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Yeah. I just think, you know, 20 plus years removed, I don't think Danny Boyle has the hunger in him to deliver. And like, I get that he was doing the thing with the iPhones, like he was doing with the DV cams before, and but like the problem is like it that doesn't carry the same feeling.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

You have to tell me this was done on an iPhone. I don't watch this and go, obviously, this is done on an iPhone because of the code. Where with the DV camera it was obviously different back. That was sure.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

But yeah, with the iPhone, whether or not it's iPhone or just like digitally, like it's so crystal clear that like he has to do some of like the matrix moves and stuff and the freeze frames to like do something.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

I don't think it looks good. And I know that was a criticism of 28 Days, but like I think 28 Days looks gorgeous. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, it's lo-fi, it's gritty, but like that suits the material. And it's like with that comes this like uh visceral feeling because everything's dark, everything's kind of blurry, everything's kind of grainy, you can't really see what's going on. And like in 28 years, you see everything so crystal clear that like I don't think the makeup looks good, I don't think the effects look good, I don't think any of the motion looks good. The effects look are very rough in that movie, and like I don't think any of it's scary, I don't think any of it's intense, and like creepy, not scary.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

Big difference. Them in red is kind of creepy, but not scary.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yeah, that that but that that's like 10 seconds out of a nearly three-hour long movie, right? Two and a half hour long movie or something like that. That's two hours. Okay, no, it's almost yeah, one. But it's like it's like it's like one shot in the movie. I agree, and it's like there's things in 28 years that I straight up hated. And it's interesting because Danny Boyle, they're very Danny Boyle stuff, and it's like now one of the things very specifically is when the Jimmies show up at the end of 28 years, you Nick, I think you picked out because you were watching with subtitles captions that it's the teletype. Yep, nobody's ever gonna get that, right? Nobody's gonna get that reference. What that reads as is out of nowhere there are these parkour doing tracksuit wearing idiots to like bad new metal music.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

Yeah, and I was like Power Ranger, not teletubby, because the color coding of them in my head, I was like, What?

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Either way, it reads as like, what the fuck are you doing right now? How is this the end of this movie? Why are there parkour people in track suits out of nowhere? And it's like that actually ties into Bone Temple because like I had this thought at the beginning of Bone Temple where like our introduction to the Jimmies is stupid and goofy, and then the beginning of Bone Temple, you're immediately put into this situation where you're just like, oh no, no, no, I was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Now I'm uncomfortable. This is intense, this is this is a very different movie. This is awful, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:42

So I had I had an opinion because we saw it in the theater, and I already knew everyone was like, This movie's great with the absolute worst last two minutes of any movie ever. So in my head, I was waiting for supposedly something happens at the end of 28 years later that almost wrecks the whole thing. So when that came up, I was like, that's not as bad as I was thinking. I get it's some of the editing, the music felt wrong to me. And in my head, this was my opinion or my theory, is if it was like just straight, like scary metal music or distorted bass, if the music choice was better that scene plays. So the other night I rewatched the scene on mute, like on YouTube, and just muted it. I was like, no, it's the editing, the song sucks, it's also the editing, it's not just the song sucks, the flipping and the cutting and the the angles that was like it's literally every part of that scene feels disjointed from the movie. I thought it was just the song. Yeah, I was way wrong. No, it's and that's why I said the thing is when Nick brought up he doesn't like Danny Boyle is like 28 years later, the biggest part of that movie is Danny Boyle. Alex Carlin's not the front. Yeah, the script and the ideas isn't at the front. Danny Boyle's choices are at the front. That's why watching the Bone Temple, just a fucking intro, I was like, Danny Boyle's not here.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

Yeah, it's the fucking and you're immersed in the story.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Yeah. I also sorry, I was just gonna say, like, I also just like I fucking hate Aaron Taylor Johnson. Like, I think he's terrible. I know that you guys were like you guys were a bit more nice to him. I don't think he's great in that movie. I hate him in everything, I think. Interesting. I like I think he is one of those guys that like he was probably like a pretty pretty talented kid. I mean, I guess he was like pretty good in kick-ass, right? Yeah, but like everything he's in as an adult, I'm just like, he must have so much charisma in person that none of it translates through the screen because like I don't understand how he keeps getting acting roles. He's handsome, yeah. I'll give him that. He's ripped, yeah. But he's I think he's terrible in that movie. Yeah, I don't think he's great in that movie.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

I like him in the movie. I think he's good. I like him. He worked for me. That's fair. But I'm not I'm not gonna defend him because I get it, because there's just something about him where like, yeah, it's good enough. I I made the joke and I kind of stand by it's like he's a lesser Jake Jones Hall, he's a lesser James McAvoy. Like, there's people doing his thing better, so I'm not gonna.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

James McAlvoy would have been so much better, yeah. It would have been so much better.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Yeah, but I also like Honestly, you can say that about a lot of roles if you put James McAvoy like he could do a lot.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

McAvoy's amazing. But yeah, I don't think I don't think James or uh Aaron Taylor Johnson is good at all. I don't think he's plays a parent well. He doesn't convincingly play the father of that kid. Like there's no relationship, there's no father-son relationship between the two of them. That's believable. You know, I believe that Spike is that mom's kid.

SPEAKER_05 32:53

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Their relationship feels very real. Maybe Jody Comer is so much better.

SPEAKER_05 32:57

Yeah, Jody Comer.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

But I don't think like there was no part of that movie where I was like, that is that kid's dad. He's acting like that kid's dad. I get that.

SPEAKER_05 33:06

Well, and I think that's I think it kind of works because they're going for the masculinity, overbearing, over-protective father who really, you know, it's that kind of thing. And I like that Jody Comer asks him, Is your dad silly with you? Because your grandfather, who you look like, was silly with me. So I don't know, that kind of work works for me. Him not being a great father, kind of works for me.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Oh, I like what you just said.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

That makes me I like because that's intentional in the script, right?

SPEAKER_04 33:37

He fucked up as a dad.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

Yeah. Yeah, he's trying too much to make him like a man, like a boy, and he's fucking lying about it. He doesn't know who Spike is, you know, as like a person. He's too concerned with him wanting to be a fucking man, a fucking Englishman or whatever, you know what I mean. That's that's I think that's a fair take on it.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

I know that that I think that's a very fair take on it. Did the joggle the Brits on the that brings me back to Ben Altenberg's take on Prometheus? Okay, I always go back to this. Please reiterate for the audience and for me. The specifics of his take don't matter. Okay, but we all saw Prometheus, yeah, and Ben had this very intellectual take of like, oh, it's about hubris and this and that, and the reason these scientists are making bad decisions is for this. And he had this very intellectual like breakdown of why these characters were doing these asinine things and the reasoning behind all this. And and I was like, Ben, that's great that you thought about all that. The problem is that it still sucks to watch. Yep. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, no matter how like you might be dead on. Yeah, it it may be a fully intentional, like he's a bad dad, sure, he doesn't have that relationship, and like they're trying to convey that, it's still not enjoyable for me to watch. I get that.

SPEAKER_05 34:56

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

It's still about the experience, it still doesn't ring true to me at all. Yeah, yeah. No, that's perfectly fair, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

And I don't I don't remember, you already said, but have you is this your first time watching The Bone Temple?

SPEAKER_02 35:08

No, okay. So we didn't watch Bone Temple for a while, we didn't see it in the theater because we we didn't get to see 28 years until streaming.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

And we both kind of disliked 28 years. Who weren't excited to see? So we weren't excited for Bone Temple until enough people like you guys were like, no, Bone Temple's actually pretty good. Yeah. That enough of my interest was piqued where I was like, I'm willing to give it a shot. I've heard this is good, I've heard it's different. I know it's not Danny Boyle, so like let's see, you know. So I had watched it before and I rewatched it, rewatched both of them for this.

SPEAKER_05 35:44

Oh, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

All right, yeah, I wasn't like I said the first one. Um off-camera, camera, quote unquote. Yeah, exactly. Um it's audio. I also rewatched, I rewatched 28 weeks first because I hadn't rewatched 28 weeks in a really long time.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

And you missed Jeremy Brenner.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Yeah, you know, he's not the strongest part of that movie. I forgot that he was in there.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

Yeah, I literally you know who would have done better?

SPEAKER_02 36:06

James Maxwell White. He was too young, he was too young at the time. Jake Jonal.

SPEAKER_05 36:11

Yeah, I I swiped through some screenshots or whatever of 28 weeks later when we watched 28 Days Later, and I'm like, holy shit, I forgot how many people were in this movie. Yeah, yeah, Rose Byrne, I think. Yeah, yeah, Rose Berkeley, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Idris Elba. I was gonna say, yeah, the It's a stacked cast. Yeah, of it's a stacked cast of a lot of people that weren't very big at the time. Yeah, Idris wasn't well known at the time. I mean, Robert Carlyle was probably the most famous at the time, and even then, he's just always kind of been a character actor. Like, he's not a big name. He's a I know that face. Yes, yeah, yeah. So, yes, I had seen I had seen Bone Temple before.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

And what do you think about Bone Temple?

SPEAKER_02 36:50

I think Bone Temple is pretty great. I mean, it's not Alex's best, but I think it's much better than the first 28 years. Um, I think Nia DeCosta handles it excellently, and I think well, like I was kind of saying again, off camera, I think 28 weeks does a better job of following up 28 days than 28 years does, if that makes sense. Absolutely, like it feels different, but similar enough, and it feels like a progression, and I think Nia DeCosta handles that in a very similar way of just like not just trying to do what Danny Boyle did before, but putting her own stamp on it in a similar vein, but definitely taking it in like a much more like grittier, more legitimately intense and uncomfortable direction because the material warrants it.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Yep. I would use the word yucky, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. This movie's fucking yucky, man. But I I still look away. Oh, yeah. Multiple times I look away. I'm a big sissy boy.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Yeah, but yeah, I think I think she does a great job with it. I think there's parts of it that don't fully work still. And I have some notes about that actually, because there's some of it where it's like, I'm not sure if it's her or the script. Um, well, I guess we'll kind of get into that a little bit later, but like Dave, that's why we're here. Yep, that's why we're here. But yeah, I think it's it's largely pretty good, and I think it's a better entry into the mythology than 28 years. And I honestly think that like we don't need 28 years for Bone Temple to work, with the exception of like one plot point, really. Like spoilers, I guess. Dr. Kelson knows Spike.

SPEAKER_05 38:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

That's the only stuff from 28 years that we need for Bone Temple to work. I think we could have just been dropped into Bone Temple as like this is the world now, and this is the same thing. That is cool.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

And this kid is on his own, we don't know why, but like he's like in with these like fucking crazy cultists, yeah, and like they're all dressed the same, and we don't know why, and it's like weird and intense, and then like the story stands on its own. We don't need yeah, we don't need the introduction of Spike, and I think it's would almost be a stronger entry point than 28 Years was.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

28 Years does the now that I've seen this movie, and now that I uh I keep the mindset of this going to be a trilogy, 28 Years Later feels a lot like a soft relaunch or a reboot where they they have more to say about things than just like one clever idea of instead of zombies going slow, we go fast. Now we can add some imperial like military commentary thing. We can add some stuff to it, but like the first one had a good solid hook. Now we're older and we've had a whole career. They come back, and it's like we got a lot of shit we can talk about. We can talk about COVID and all of the you know, we talked about nationalism and fathers, like there's so many ideas, and then now with the second one, it's not as many ideas. Yeah, it feels like Nia and Alex both at the same time kind of honed in on I don't know if we need to talk about five, six different things at once. Yeah, I'm a little lost in what Alex is talking about that has any relation to any of the other movies, and now I'm scared what the hell is a third one of these gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Yeah, so I have I have in a a thought about that, and not necessarily in related to the other 28 years movies, but in related to like Alex's other movies, certainly has like later period stuff.

SPEAKER_05 40:41

I have many thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Um, and I think that is also part of why Bone Temple works better, is because we're back to talking about God more. It's not so much that I mean, like, yeah, that's in there. Just a little bit, but this felt more like instead of exploring all these thematic ideas, this felt more like like, yeah, the religion thing is in there, but that felt more like a conduit. I think Alex is talking about like authenticity and individuality, and the religion thing just feels like a conduit for that.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

And the religion thing, but like the whole situation about the Jimmies, you know, being essentially cultists and religious zealots, like um it's less about the Satan thing, it's less about Jimmy feeling like he's hearing Satan in his head than it is about like blind devotion, yeah, and the zealotry and like the cult and like what it means to be like uh authentic to who you are, you know. And I think the Jimmies are kind of like a comment on that, and it's like that feels very streamlined. And even Dr. Kelson with Samson is also kind of exploring that like well, who actually is Samson? He's trying to cure the rage virus so he can exist as a person again, right? And it's all about like who are you on the inside? What is your authentic self in there? And like, yeah, it's kind of touched on in a little different, few different ways, but I through the whole thing it kind of felt like like Spike is going along with the Jimmy's because it's like how he has to survive, he probably thinks they're gonna kill it and think well, they're going to kill him if he doesn't join up. But this whole time he's wrestling with who he is in that regard, because he's not one of them.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

But the lady thinks he is. She didn't believe him when he's like, I can like me and you run away together. She's like, fuck off, kicked him in the nuts. Like he had to deal with that. I thought that was a very interesting part of the story.

SPEAKER_05 42:52

Yeah, so okay, I gotta I gotta yeah, I gotta jump in here. So I see the trilogy and how I think the trilogy's gonna end. This is all Spike's story. Sure. So we talked about it a little bit with 28 years, just the first one, of like it's realizing that it's the death of your parents, it's the literal actual death of your mother, it's the death of who you believed your father was. Sure. And it's Spike, he's raised on this isolated island filled with allegory to xenophobia. Yeah. And so he's choosing to go out into the world, some say community. He's choosing to go out into the world to become his own person, which kind of ties into what you're saying, right? So it's becoming an adult in a way, even though he's much too young to become an adult. And in Bone Temple, he witnesses basically the two types of death that exist in this world. You have absolute horrific psychopathy with the Jimmies, which also ties into the English nationalism of like he represents the fucking pedophile of Jimmy's happy. Savile and all this kind of stuff and the horrors that horrors, not horrors.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Yeah, there's no whores in this movie.

SPEAKER_05 44:06

The horrors that are inflicted upon children uh in the name of religion, in the name of entertainment, and in the name of whatever. But you have him meet Jimmy Crystal, who is the embodiment of evil and represents death, and you have him again uh encounter Kelson, who is the benevolent uh representation of death, right? So you have him building up his bone temple memento mori. It is an altruistic death versus true evil death. And then I think whenever we're coming back in and you're introducing Jim at the end, and you're introducing Jim teaching his daughter basically about history and and talking about the end of fascism in Europe and all stuff, and I was like, oh god, yeah, but this alternate world. But uh you have him who the last line of the movie when Jim and his daughter see Spike and what was her name, Ellie or something like that. Jimmy Inc. Jimmy Inc. running.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

I I forget the actual name.

SPEAKER_05 45:06

When you have them running, and she asks Jim, Are we gonna help him? And he says, Of course we're gonna help him. Yeah. That's the last line of the movie. So we have this Spike witnessing death of these these two versions of it, evil benevolence, and him leaving the nest, this isolated bullshit where he's kind of rejected not only his father, but by his father, and he has nothing left there for him because his mother has passed away. He leaves this fucking island, and then in the third one, I think he's gonna be accepted by Jim, who's like the true embodiment of what it meant means to be a father, the true embodiment of once what it meant uh what it means to be a male, and what it means to be caring. You're taken in by somebody who wants to help you, who isn't just against the fucking world like your father was or something. So that's that's my idea, but that's how I see it. It's all Spike's story. Yeah. With all these fucking allegories and metaphors and and deeper issues that are sprinkled in throughout.

SPEAKER_04 46:03

And I think everything you said about the first one, I think my brain lines it up and goes, Yes, I I I get all of that with the father and the mother. It's the second one that I get lost on, and I think it's because the spike stuff's a little more subtle. Well, he's like a main character, he feels like he's not the main character. The Jimmy and the Kelson stuff's bigger, and then I lose the spike thread, and then that's where I'm like, what the hell are you gonna do with a third? Yeah, because this one felt so big on the side character. Well, you lose Kelson and Jimmy.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

You lose the two forces. Yeah, that's what I'm saying is benevolence and the evil in this movie, right? I mean, because Jimmy's fucking crucified upside down, and you have an infected, get him. There's that little jump scare, yeah. And Kelson fucking R.I.P., you know, he he went up with the flames. Uh but I but I guess maybe the alpha will actually come in and he'll him as well.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

That's the other thread that uh Alex is keeping is the the evolution of what the virus and what the alpha is going through.

SPEAKER_05 47:02

And I bet you Aaron Taylor Johnson's gonna come back.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

But you also gotta remember that like Jimmy is not Jimmy Crystal's not really in the first one. No, crap, he's not the driving evil force. There's still like yeah, he's you still need an antagonist. Yeah, so like he's pulled out at the end of this one, but like he wasn't he wasn't a force in the first one. Like, yeah, you see the graffiti and stuff, but he's not there.

SPEAKER_05 47:23

They opened the trilogy with him, he's the kid at the beginning of the trilogy.

SPEAKER_04 47:26

Which is funny that that's the opening to both movies, essentially. So it's like the screams and stuff, and then it says 20 years later, so it's again Jimmy's story.

SPEAKER_05 47:37

I watched it with subtitles, of course, because we're a dad. Keep it low and I'm a dad. The the subtitle thing that I picked up this time, which I didn't pick up in the theaters, is the very beginning when it's there's screams of the infected over the the the cast. At the very end, there's a there's Killy Murphy's Jim saying hello from 28 Days Later when he's on the bridge.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_05 48:04

Yeah, there's his it says Jim yells. Oh interesting, yeah. I didn't catch that at all. Yeah, exactly. I didn't catch the audio, but the sub subtitles, man, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Yeah, so the I was thinking about that kind of individuality authenticity thing, and I was thinking about what your friend Antonio said about doppelgangers. Yes. I think that that was interesting, but like I think he's he's not quite there with that.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

Because like fucking idiot Antonio. Dave Jordan says you're wrong.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

He said you're stupid. He told us he hates shit.

SPEAKER_04 48:38

He said, Who is that guy? And I was like, Which guy, my brother? He goes, No, the dumb piece of shit. And then Nick said, Oh, clear, you're talking about Antonio then. And Dave said, Yeah, he's a dumb piece of shit.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Yeah. No, I was actually talking about John Morgan. Oh, well. No, um, I think it's an interesting observation, but like I don't think it's quite on point. And I I don't know how it ties into these. Well, I kind of have to like be that guy a little bit, but like we expect up toppelgangers very specifically aren't just like it's not the annihilation thing where it's like, oh, this thing is like distorting your DNA and like it's absorbing parts of you and stuff like that. Like doppelgangers very specifically are supposed to be like almost like evil mirror images. Okay, and they're supposed to be like harbingers or like bad portents, kind of right. So it's like the the most recent, maybe probably not most recent, but the most recent example is that I can think of as like Dark Link. Well, I was gonna say like Jordan Peel's Us, like Jordan Peel's Us, yes. Those are doppelgangers, yeah, yeah, right? Like they show up, they are mirror images, and you're like, oh, shit is going down. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, you know, you guys, when he brought that up, you kind of talked about the Jimmies and stuff like that, and it's like that's not really what we might be using the wrong term, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

But I do think Alex is interested in these uh mirrors and soulless husks of a thing.

SPEAKER_05 50:07

Well, he's inter and he's interested in it's either it's like ascendancy, it's replacement, it's something just like in Civil War, because you have you have Yeah, the Kirsten DeKayley Kirsten DeKay, she becomes her, that kind of thing. So it's it's something there's something there.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

That's that, and I was thinking about that specifically because those two characters are the closest thing to like actual doppelgangers that I could think of in Alex's work. And like again, this was just something that I was thinking of. I wasn't like doing research on it necessarily past like having watched all these movies, yeah. But like what you're talking about, like the soulless like husk thing, I think that's more the individuality, I think that's more the like religious cult thing, yeah, right? And it's like I think again, I'm not quite sure. Like, I don't feel like he's trying to say something, but more like have this conversation about it. Because like the Jimmies are really interesting in this way of like, yes, they are like clearly like they are cult members, they are supposed to be like this religious cult. They're still unique though, religious, they're still unique, but also there are these moments where like when they're torturing the family, one of them's throwing up, yeah, one of them like clearly like can't doesn't have the stomach for it, one of them is like, I'm not into this, yeah. And then like as soon as they don't have to do it, and it's just like the one Jimmy fighting the other guy, then they're all on board. And like there's something to be said there. He's having this conversation about like, okay, who are these people? What is blind devotion? How much of these like people in real life, these really like these religious people, these like diehard, not even necessarily cult members, but like you can make the parallel between any organized religion and any cult I was gonna say, the church of Satan's still a church, so we're still talking about the idea of how much you really buy into this, exactly, or you just like the parts that are fun for evil. Exactly. And I think he's having a conversation about that where he's not like necessarily saying like this is what I think, but he's also saying, like, no, this is part of the reality of this, and it's like it's all kind of worth discussing. Like, if he just wanted to make the Jimmies this like unstoppable force for evil, they wouldn't have that dimension.

SPEAKER_05 52:25

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

You know, they and it's like that's the really smart thing that he's done with them is that like, yes, Jimmy is evil, but then also like Jimmy Crystal himself is not totally convinced all the time. Oh, yeah. He walks up to Kelson and he's like, Are you my dad? He's terrified. He's scared. Are you saying I I'm actually not, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_04 52:47

I think I was bullshitting, and I'm really scared I was right this whole time. Yeah, no, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Yeah, exactly. And it's like, I'm lying to that.

SPEAKER_05 52:54

But he he is a fucking he he is an abandoned abused child who then abuses abandoned children. That's literally what he is.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Well, uh a million percent, but I just want to kind of sit here for a moment because we got here. That is an incredible scene that Alex did of him meeting the maybe devil. Oh, I love like a Satanist maybe meeting the devil, and in his head going, Maybe that's in I'm in love with that.

SPEAKER_05 53:27

You have a truly fucking evil person who is devoted to Satan, who sees a fucking giant pile of skulls, and he goes, I've done some fucked up stuff. Yeah, I haven't killed this many people. Yeah. And the naked man in red, and he sees him, and the way and the fucking crow cause, and he flinches. Yeah, like he's genuinely scared. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

You know, the the added dimension of her name is Jimmy Inc., which I think is I'll look it up. I I kept writing red shirt Jimmy, but like that the added dimension of like her being a believer to the point where she's like, no, no, no, Satan's real. Yeah, that's Satan. Yeah, what we don't know is if Jimmy is bullshit. Exactly, yeah. I like that, you know, and that's a fun level. Exactly. That's like a whole other thing. And it's like there's there's moments where she is she is so good in this because there's moments where like what is it? Kelly. Kelly. There's moments where like she so believably portrays like I don't have the patience for this bullshit.

SPEAKER_05 54:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

The the opening scene, it's on her face right away when they're in that pool and and Spike is fighting the other Jimmy. She's the only one that's just like fucking get on.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

She wants to cut to the she's like, I know this is gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, stop the fucking she doesn't want the sermon, she just wants to get over the get it over it.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

When when uh Jimmy Crystal sends her out to basically like scout and she encounters that the infected granddad, and she just like kills him and moves on, doesn't even show it on her face. She's like so good at just being like, Oh god, just fucking exactly, you know.

SPEAKER_05 55:07

Yeah, she's more interested in in the reality, not the show, right? Because he's that's Jimmy's all it's about the showmanship, yeah. It's how the other fingers buy the stuff sniffing his own parts.

SPEAKER_02 55:16

She's she's she's the believer in the cult.

SPEAKER_05 55:19

Yeah, which is like I know we're gonna this is just how and she tells Spike that many times.

SPEAKER_04 55:23

This is just how it works, which is the best religious cult stories. Uh um, not to spoil anything, one day I'll make Nick watch his like Midnight Mass. The scariest is the one that like really fully devotedly believes it. That's the evil person in the church. Yeah, it's always the one that believes it the most, where you're like, no, that's the scary person.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Yeah, to the point where the leader, the leader's kind of like, wait, wait, wait, no, tell you a story.

SPEAKER_05 55:49

I'm telling you a story, they'll do whatever. Yeah, if they are the true believer, they will kill you. That's and that's exactly what happens here. She turns on on Jimmy Christmas. She can't wait to kill him. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Because who she's a true believer, and he says, Oh, crucify him. Oh, fuck it.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

She's just like, that's that's her her, like, oh, it's okay. Yeah, exactly. That's her permission, you know, and she's fucking all on board, exactly. You know, yeah. I think she is excellent, and that she is a big part of what how this movie really succeeds, you know. Um, because it really also does balance out like Jimmy is this character, and like, yeah, he's says he's hearing Satan, and like we have no reason to believe he's not, but he's definitely not all the time.

SPEAKER_05 56:34

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Right? Like, he's playing the part, and yeah, and and like as a true cult leader, like he's not getting his hands dirty, yeah. Like he's making them do the dirty work, he's making them do the dirty work, they're all fucked up, they're scarred, they're like burnt, they're all messed up, and he's Hiller doesn't do anything except staff Kelsen.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

Yep, that's all he does, yeah. And he and he tells them to do it, yep, and he does it very prissy, like it's a dainty, like how that's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 57:01

That's what I also love is like a like a punk bitch, is he's wearing a tiara. It's cute, yeah. And he's the prince, but like the I love that contrast between you have the between the two films, you have the fucking masculine Aaron Taylor Johnson who's all about just fucking being a man and blah blah blah blah blah. And then you have Jimmy Crystal who's just like, oh, I'm the son of Satan. The only fancy thing that I could find is these rings and this crown. I'm not I don't care if I have long blonde hair. There's a few effeminate manners, exactly. There's not there's nothing that doesn't daintiness to him, yeah. And he's a hundred times more dangerous than Aaron Taylor. I uh too much of a coward to go after his own son. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 57:46

Ridiculous. Yeah. I do think Jimmy Crystal, he is evil, yeah, and he believes in evil. Yeah. I think he believes in the devil. I don't I think that got him as far to say it's that joke of like the world resets and he he created religion again. Yeah. Like he just he's like, oh, I'm gonna do the church, but for me, I'm charismatic and can manipulate these people. That's all the fake bullshit, but I do think he is an evil person, and he does think what he's doing is what needs to be done. Well, in his I like that that's still in there, and this isn't just the story of a charlatan. Like, I like that it's not a well, I'm just making this all up because of ego. No, I do think he truly does believe his evilness. He watched his the dad thing. Exactly. His brain broke. He had a mental break through this amount of trauma. He watched sister and mother turn into him as dad.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

He also knows he has to play the part. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 58:46

Yep. And that's yeah, it's like there's a survival here, and I think Nick touched on victims of any trauma, it it does rework you.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

But I think that's also kind of like what we're saying about like that. That I think is a very, very like acute skewering of religious officials. Yeah.

unknown 59:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:04

Not just cult leaders, because like you were saying, he does believe. We're all pretty sure he believes, but he is also absolutely playing a part. He knows religious leaders power God, of course.

SPEAKER_05 59:15

You know, they wouldn't why would they waste their fucking time if they didn't?

SPEAKER_04 59:19

He knows this is a very effective tool, specifically with kids.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 59:24

Oh, yeah. Impressionable, scared people. Yeah. And it it it has gotten them this far. Um I I have a question that I don't know how I feel about this. Is it corny to use everything in its right place in movies? Or is it always awesome as fun?

SPEAKER_02 59:41

Okay, so this actually brings me to one of my notes very specifically. There are three needle drops in this movie, right? Everything in its right place is one of them. Duran Duran's uh Ordinary World is the first one, and then obviously Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden. I made a note about this because Ordinary World, the lyrics of Ordinary World and Everything in Its Right Place are almost two on the nose. And then the third one. Well, no, no, no. But like the third one, the third one plays out in the movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:15

So do the other two. All three are diegetic, which means they come on over the thing, and then it's actually Kelson playing the records, yeah. But so he could be thinking on putting everything in its right place and he puts it on. Okay, yes, but not to the same extent, right? But it's not like Danny Boyle, it's not like Danny Boyle just fucking throwing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

No, no, no, no, for sure. But I mean so, like, yeah, he's putting the records on, but like when he's outside dancing with Samson, he's not listening to Ordinary World. But he was singing it, he was singing it.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:44

But I know I know what you're saying, because uh at a certain point when Iron Maiden, that's a musical number for a theater piece. Yes, exactly, exactly. It's being performed.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:53

But we the audience are listening to Kelson's music, and it's just integrated.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

But what's the point you're trying to make? I don't know. I was like, they're so they're so on the nose. And I'm again, I'm taking Number of the Beast out because it serves a different purpose in the narrative, right? But like they're so on the nose that I was like, I don't know if these were Alex's choices and they're in the script. Oh, good question. Or I don't know if they were Nia's choices. It would I might be willing, it might be a little bit of both.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:27

I bet you they're Nia's because there's no fucking way that Alex put in all the shit that fucking from the first movie. There's no fucking way that he put in all the shit. No, but in this case, they I know that they are specific. They are so specific.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

It's more of like a director's choice, though. I think. I think but that's what I'm curious. Is like I am curious. Yeah. Like every I I'm willing to believe that maybe I would lean towards that. Again, number of the beast, I think probably. That's in the script. It's probably script. Yeah, ordinary world very well might be in the script. Everything in its right place might not be in the script. That may have just been her being like this would fit here.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:05

Is it cool or corny?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

That's I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

I mean, the thing is, is like Nick almost off mic.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

Oh, sorry, I'm looking up to see if the bone table script's on the I think it's I think it's kind of both. I think Ordinary World is that scene is a little corny. It's a little goofy. Interestingly, I think that scene very specifically informs the number of the beast scene in a couple of kind of like silly fun ways. Kelson's a dancer. I think he's the actor. So I think it's well, we could get to the number of the beast scene.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

But I I want to specifically talk about Radio Head because this is a song that I mean, every time I I listen to it, every time I think about it, I'm like, this song is so cool. It's one of the best openers. Yeah, this is a great song, and then when it shows up in movies, it's in the creator. I don't know if you watched that. The Gareth Edwards movie, it's pretty fucking cool when it shows up. And then I think the one that like the big clinical. Yeah, I think Vanilla Sky uses it. The Tom Cruise movie. And I think that was a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:14

What year is Vanilla Sky? I think Vanilla Sky was before that. I think it's like the year. Oh, it might be. Yeah. But um because I did check because it came out 2001. Yeah. Because I in my head.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:28

Vanilla Sky is 2001. And that's Cameron Crow, and I know he wrote that. That's true. That's on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:34

I was just thinking, like, did this song even come out before the first movie takes place? Before 28 Days Later. Like, could Kelson have actually bought the final?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:46

Yeah. Good question.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

And he could have. It's like because like the first movie's 2002, right? 2003.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:54

2002.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:55

It was filmed in 2002. Yeah, I was gonna say it was filmed. Winter of 2002, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:59

So yeah, he could have he just needed to pick it up right when it came out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:03

That no, no, no. Kelsey looted. That was his pick and vinyl.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

So Kid A came out in 2001. Yeah. Yeah. So like it could have worked. But like even.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:14

So he stole it during the looting. He just grabbed every vinyl he could.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

I mean, I think I think it's a little played out. I do think it's a little on the nose. I think it's a great song, so it gets a pass in a lot of cases.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

Like it's it gets a pass, I think, every time for me. Yeah. And I should roll my eyes and go, ugh, I get it. But when it kicked on in this and it's the sky, oh yeah. I was like, turn it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

Yeah, that's cool, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:39

I got excited, and then I had to ask, is that cringy? Is that kind of lame? But when it happened, my reaction was this is fucking cool. It's the midpoint of the movie. And when it happened in the creator, I'm watching a sci-fi movie, dudes are loading up in guns and it's at night in a spaceship. I was like, This is fucking cool. Yeah, it's cornier.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:00

It's cornier in the creator because every time I think that it works in this because of the context. I love that it's diegetic. Yeah. I love that it's Kelson's music that we're hearing because I fucking hate the Danny Boyle needle drops so much. Sure. I literally wrote a note, I was like, these Kelson putting on the records and it being as so much fucking.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

Another example makes sense to the story. Dude, Nia is not Danny Boyle. Thank God. As the biggest compliment. I do want to go right back to the intro of this movie. Yeah. Like it's slow. Oh, yeah. Every camera angle is intentional.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

She's framing the first shot is a sign in the pool that says no children beyond this point.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:47

She hit us with the huge brothers menace to society. Do not enter. Hell yeah, do not. Hell yeah. First shot. I wrote it down too because I was like, it's my first note. Yeah. Oh yeah. No children beyond this point. I was like, no fucking Danny Boy. Be on this point, bitch. Yeah, exactly. There's intention, there's visual storytelling. Get the fuck out of here. She goes with the Hughes Brothers. I was immediately bought in this is a Jimmy.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

No, for sure. And like in that opening scene, too, after Spike basically like forces Jimmy to bleed out, Jimmy Crystal like stands over him, and his entire body is covered in Jimmy's shadow. Yep. And I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:24

Like, yeah, we're fucking we're watching a real ass movie now.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:27

This is the person that knows what they're doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:29

Exactly. She's so fucking good. And I'm glad. So when I saw this movie, I talked about it on the podcast. I was like, I never want to see Bone Temple ever again. Because it was so fucking yucky. It's so disturbing. Yeah, it's extremely yucky. So I was very reluctant to watch this again. But after I put it on, I was like, this movie's fucking great. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

My directing is so good. I would re-watch this again.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:58

Yeah, so would I absolutely after I saw it, I was like, I felt so gross, I never want to watch it again. Now, yeah, after watching it last night, I was like, oh, I'd watch this again.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

So when we saw it in the theater, and I keep saying yucky, and I keep saying I'm big baby girl is like I looked away multiple times. I don't look away. I'm gonna miss a shot. What do you mean? Why would you I get grossed out and I'm like, ew, yucky. But yeah, I started getting panicky a little bit. Loved it in the theater. I thought this was so fucking good and so much better. Ah I got a little bored watching it at home, and I didn't get bored watching 28 Years Later. I think I was liking the weird vibrant colors in 28 Years Later. It is much more muted. This story is way better. The Jimmy Crystal, like I said, the the Kelson and Jimmy thing, that's that's one of my favorite things Alex Farland's written. Like that's up there for me, and Nia has a big part in that because she did it so well too. But I think I'm just I don't love the spike stuff in this movie. The him just constantly trying to run away, but not it goes back to the Alex Harlan problem. Like, I don't give a shit about Spike. Jimmy Inc., Jimmy, Crystal, Kelsey, every even the fucking Alpha, everybody else is more interesting to me. And then when I get to Spike, I'm like, I don't really care. You could die, and I would be fine with this movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:22

I think it's him, but it's him going through the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:26

It's him witnessing these things. He took the step in the first movie, and then he gets swept up into this thing. You know what I mean? So he's not the he's the protagonist of the trilogy. He's stuck in something for this. He's the protagonist of the trilogy, but he's not the protagonist of this movie. Jimmy and uh Kelson are the protagonists.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:48

I was getting uh there was a point where I was getting a little like I'm not as invested, but I st I still think it's better than 28 years ago. Absolutely better.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:58

It's so much better.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:59

It's also it's it's totally okay to be able to do that. I got bored. I think that's where my brain's like, this one made me bored, but that could also be external forces. Maybe I was more tired.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:07

And I watched it in two sessions, so I don't even know.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

I think it's also totally fair to be like, this movie is so much better for every reason, and yet I still had more fun watching the other movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:18

Yeah, exactly. That's absolutely valid.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:20

You know, I didn't have more fun watching 28 years later, either, either time.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:25

But god damn, is this movie it it's gross, dude? There's skin in people. Yeah, that's it's yucky, man. Yeah, it's yucky when she cuts his arm down the wrist to elbow inside. Yeah, ugh. Oh yeah, fucking gross, dude.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:41

That's horrible.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:42

Yeah, that's which uh which I'm glad a movie about Satanists brings in a level of like gore to a normalcy. Yeah, like evil people, yeah, not to disparage Satanists, because I get that's a separate thing, but let's just say evil people doing evil things and like having fun about it. That's a thing a lot of horror movies don't do that. This makes me this is like original Texas Chainsaw Masker, where I was like, no, you guys are like bad people, yeah. Even when you're not doing bad things, even at the dinner table when they take that guy's house over, that scene's disturbing. Oh, yeah, that scene's unsettling because I know how evil you are. I haven't seen it yet all the way, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:28

But I just feel it. The torture scene when they're in the barn. Sabrina was like, if this is just what the movie is going to be, I'm not watching this.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

And I was like, that's fair. I was like, that's totally fair. Oh, I'll finish it some other time. Like, if that's where you're at. And I was like, you know, maybe let's like get to the next scene and see. But like oh, it's fucking horrible. Yeah, you know, um, that's a thing that immediately she does better than you know Danny Boyle did, and it's like the end of 20 years later is fucking stupid. And then this movie immediately takes the exact same subject matter and makes it menacing and scary and intimidating. Like you said, they're sitting around the table talk literally talking about teletubbies, and you're just like, I am uncomfortable with this.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:21

Danny Boyle cannot pull that scene on that.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:24

I don't know. And I I'm never gonna say never to any director. Never ever. Say never ever for doing the podcast. But I don't want to do this, but part of me is interested in what the fuck is Danny Boyle interested in story-wise, besides filmmaking. Because that's the thing that caught my eye with with uh 28 years is just like, oh yeah, you're just trying to have fun, which I get it, but you're not interested in telling a story necessarily. Like, so watching his filmography for the podcast would be infuriating to me. But I would be curious, like, what is he interested in? Because I have no fucking idea. He seems like he seems like a journeyman where he can find scripts and stuff, but like he made Slum Dog Millionaire.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:12

I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:13

So it's I think he's just interested in camera stuff and he's maybe the guy that did train spotting did Slum Dog Millionaire.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:18

Yeah, so I don't know, it's just he gets an amazing script everyone's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:21

The woman that did Bone Temple did the Marvels.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:25

Which the Marvels was pretty good. I was gonna say that's not Nia, that's Kevin Feige picking weird fucking choices for stuff. I'm just saying because I think uh Antonio made this comment. I think we talked about this with men. Of if I saw this and it wasn't Alex Scarland, I'd I'm not I'm walking away going, I don't I don't I don't care who made that. This movie makes me go, I need her to keep working. Oh, yeah, because I need to see her outside of other people's ideas. Candyman, the marvels, and now this. Yeah, I'm like, I need your get out.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

Her candy man, her candyman is so good.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:11

I want to see it because of the cast, and she did this. It's great. Like now that I've seen her do this, I'm like, yeah, I need to watch you work.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

I mean, I just I like Candyman, I like Clive Barker, so I was like kind of already in. I get it, but like her candyman.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:25

So Clive Barker did the original Candyman?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:27

Well, so it's based on a Clive Barker short story.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:30

Oh, okay, yeah. Because I forgot he was a writer-writer. Yeah. Yeah, Hellblazer's like a writer thing, isn't it? Hellraiser. Hell Hellblazer? Hellblazer. Is that what I said? Hellblazer? He said Hellblazer. I'm thinking of a comic.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:40

Yeah, you're such a different Pokemans. Hell Hellraiser is based on Clive Barker. Uh Clive Barker novella called The Hellbound Heart. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:50

But did he direct that?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

Yes, he wrote and directed the movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:54

Okay. Um but he didn't write and direct Candyman?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:57

No.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:57

Okay. Who made the Puppet Master?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:59

I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:00

So, and this is I came away from this movie fucking bummed. Because I'll I'm just like, dude. They killed your boy, your beautiful boy. Beautiful bald boy dies. I know. Well, I do again. This movie reinforces Kelson, favorite uh character of all of Alex Garland's characters that he's written. Love Kelson. Love uh Ralph Feines in this fucking character.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

I believe it's pronounced Rafe.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:28

I've heard that.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:29

His brother. I'm American.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:31

I'm saying Ralph. It's Ralph. It's spelled Ralph. It is spelled Ralph. I say croissant. Whatever. I'm not gonna ever say croissant. We'll have to we gotta look it up. But Mr. Fines is a fine actor. Oh, he's excellent. But I came away from this movie fucking bummed because it's gonna be the sequel trilogy all over again. Where you have Danny Boyle. The high midpoint. The JJ Abrams coming in. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:58

Danny Boyle's doing the third one.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:00

I literally forgot. Nia DeCosta, the fucking Ryan Johnson coming in and making a very interesting second chapter. And then you have fucking Danny Boyle, J.J.'s coming back.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

But we haven't we haven't talked about this because it hasn't come up on any of my episodes. I have a fully different opinion of that Star Wars movie than you did. It's fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:23

Which movie?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

The Ryan Johnson one. Most people don't like it. Which I even freaking forget what the subtitle of that movie is.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:29

The Last Jedi.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:30

I yeah, we don't need to get into it. That's a whole episode. Nobody likes it. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:34

Me and William are the only people left that like it, actually. Everyone else doesn't like it. That's fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:38

I don't I'm sorry. You both have to cut me off. I don't want to talk about anything else other than Dave's opinions on this movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:47

We have to wrap up the season.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:50

Yeah, yeah. We'll move on. We'll move on. I'm done talking about this movie now. We'll bring it up.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:53

I don't fucking care.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:54

We'll have a we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:55

We'll bring it up on another episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

We'll just do a Last Jedi episode.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:59

Yeah, we should. We should do we will do some Star Wars stuff. That would be interesting. We should we should do a Star Wars season and have a different guest on for every episode. Anyway, let's move on. We don't have to be able to do that until my spectrum brains is broken. I get your point though. But does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:12

I think that's fair. I think that's a fair comparison. Even though I don't agree. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:16

But I get from my perspective, that's I'm I'm I'm bummed because I I have a hard time believing the next one's gonna be any good. That exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:24

And I mean we have it's certainly not gonna be as good as Bone Temple.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:27

No, no, absolutely not. We have Garland's script, I think he can stick the landing. I'm glad we have Killian Murphy back. That's intriguing.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:34

I want to see that, but I know I'm not gonna like the directing style.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:38

Probably not.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:38

Because what, Danny Boyle's suddenly not gonna be interested in being Danny Boyle? No. So yeah, I'm I'm fucking bummed.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:45

Only thing I could say about that that I am excited for, I have no idea what it's gonna look like because he's always shifting. So visually, he's gonna bring something and it won't look like 28 years later. I'm at least intrigued, but maybe he'll bring back the film look like he does at the end of the day. It's a maximalist, crazy idea for the sake of idea. So that only gets me so far. If Alex Garland can nail the script and write the ending, I I probably won't hate it, but there's no way I'm loving it. There's just no way. I think we're all in agreement of like, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:22

It's pretty unlikely.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:25

But overall, really like it. I think it's a fucking really good game.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:28

You want to talk about Iron Maiden days?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:30

Let's talk about the Iron Maiden Day.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:31

How do you feel about the Iron Maiden Day?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:32

Cut that out.

unknown 1:17:34

Fuck it.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:34

So trying to like wait till the end, yeah. And then there you go. But Dave Jordan is here, and we watched a movie where the entire Iron Maiden song played. Well, a guy pretended to be the devil.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:45

It's the climax of the film. It's not the entire song. Let's just put it on there. How long is the entire song?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:50

No, how many more verses?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:52

The song is four and a half minutes. They they cut out a good chunk of it for this. However, I do want to say that like I didn't say I wanted to do Bone Temple because of the Iron Maiden.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:03

Sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:05

It just happened to be. Now, for those listening, sure. I have an Iron Maiden tattoo. I love Iron Maiden. They're like my favorite band.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:13

Dave's the guy that's like, no, they're still good.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:17

Like, no, they're still good. Their last record was really fucking good.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:23

And they're very good live still, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:25

Hold on, hold on. Listeners of the show. Did you know they had a last record? Because Dave still keeps up. That's how much of a thing he is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:33

No, and I say this without hyperbole, taking myself out of the fact that they are their great life. My favorite band.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:40

I've heard their great live.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:41

Last time I saw them was one of, if not the best, concert I've ever seen in my entire life. They're in their 60s, and like I literally left that show, and I was talking to one of my friends on the way to the parking lot, and I was like, I don't understand how anybody goes to see that show and doesn't think they just saw the greatest concert they've ever seen. They're just incredible. Yeah, they're still incredible.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:04

I heard the musicianship's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

And I'm I'm not just saying this as a fan, like their last couple records have been really fucking good. But like there's something so silly about this scene that I love so much, and it has almost nothing to do with the Iron Maiden of it. There's a little bit that has to do with the Iron Maiden of it, but like I think it's so I don't know, it's like it's so goofy.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:32

Oh, there's a charm to it, right? There's a charm to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:34

There's so much goofy in this movie, that's great. That like, yeah, we've seen Kelson like singing and dancing, but I think it's so funny that he had to like get dressed up and he had to like get into character so he could perform. Like you feel that from a character perspective. Yeah. Yeah. But he's performing like I feel like my dad would. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:58

There's there's a vibe of he's a 60-something year old.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:01

Like you can still hear it very intentionally, you can still hear his voice, and but he's like, he's trying to sell it because he he's like, if I don't sell this, this guy's gonna make me eat my own intestine. Yeah, they're gonna keep it.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:14

He's not an evil person, and he knows he's doing with a child mind. Yeah. Because he talked to him. He's like, okay, so my version of what he thinks the devil's gonna be. Yeah, that's there's a charming uh dad to kid show on that I mean I'm laughing, I'm enjoying it, but there's also a sweetness to it to me. Dude, when and that's why he's the best actor for this, because he's pulling all of that off at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:40

Oh, 100%. When he pulls out the Iron Maiden record, I just like flat out started laughing. Yeah, yeah. Like, and through that whole sequence, I was just giggling because I was just like, one, it's like it rings so true for the character and the situation, but at the same time, it's this incredibly silly, funny thing at the end of this grisly movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:03

Well, that's why that's why it's brilliant. And we have these moments of levity with him. Like when him and Samson are fucking doped up, yeah. Literally, like we just saw the Jimmies do something horrible, and then it cuts to him. They're they're literally fucking dancing. It's supposed to be friends.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:21

Yeah, because Kelson's also getting high.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:23

It's supposed to be silly, yeah. And we need those moments in this movie, and to have this be the climax of the film, we know bad shit's gonna happen after it. Yeah, but to have this theatrical fucking ridiculousness where he makes them, you know, he alters their state like flowing shit in their face.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:40

Yeah, like he he just gives them coke and then just runs around dancing and then they start dancing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:46

Yeah, dude, when when the song in this movie, when the song finishes, and like, yeah, I he's blown whatever in their faces and they're all freaking out and stuff, but like the look of like pure joy on their faces that was you seeing Iron Maiden live. Literally, literally, when that happened and I saw it, I was like, they literally look like everybody that just actually saw Iron Maiden. That's so funny. Like, they have that look of like, like, I can't believe what I just saw. That's so sick. Yeah, and they were just like, I don't know why. And it's like just part of the whole vibe of all of it, of that scene. But I was just like, every single one of those Jimmies looks like they just saw Iron Maiden. That's so funny, and it's just because they I don't know, it's like Kelson had to sell it to him, but it's the whole thing, it's just like it just but like you said, it it needs it.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:37

Yep, if it doesn't have that, if it just ends on this, you're no if you didn't have those moments of levity sprinkled in between and and have uh Kelson's genuine, just wonderful humanity within him where he genuinely cares about experiencing life in this way and and trying to fucking cure Samson and all this kind of stuff. He's such a gentle person. Yeah, you need that into the contrast of the genuine. And it's intentional, it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

But I I think that's also partially why some of the Danny Boyle stuff doesn't work because Danny Boyle isn't delivering this intense, really kind of like merciless, grim thing that needs those moments of levity. He's delivering something that like isn't delivering on an emotional level like it needs to be. It's same's and therefore when he does needle drops and stuff like that, it doesn't hit. It's all one level to yeah, because like you don't you don't need the respite of the of dancing around to to to Duran Duran. Exactly, because you're you're not actually invested in it in the same way, you're just kind of like observing it, and like, yeah, there's interesting stuff to observe, but like that movie's not scary.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:52

You're not emotionally experiencing the story.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:55

This is the never let me go thing of like I really do think Nia and Alex paired very well where she's getting the parts of the script and it's speaking through this because the thing of like because Nick and you guys keep talking about the levity breaking up the dark shit, it's written into the character. Oh, yeah, it's not the Marvel or the like Seth Rogan thing of like sad scene, okay, then a little silly. He is that guy, it's a genuine feeling. It's written in the character, it's written in the moment. Like we're saying, he's he's putting on a play for children. No, and that's there's that's built in, but that's in the script, it's in the characters, it's in the writing, and she knows enough to pull it out of the scenes. Danny can't do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:42

Well, and that's why I give Alex credit so much for making again Jimmy Crystal and Dr. Kelson are the protagonists, the dual. I mean, it's a two-handed, whatever, protagonist and antagonist of this movie. And it ties back into them being their versions of you know, representation of death, but you have evil and benevolence. They are genuinely who they are. Kelson is just genuinely a wonderful, caring person. And Jimmy, as fucked up as he is, and we get to see these cracked, he is genuinely being himself. Like, even though you know he's putting on this act and manipulating these people, that's who he is.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:25

Yeah, like he wants he's the he's the cult leader, he wants the power, he has the ego.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:31

He's not he's putting on a show for them, but that's who he is to his core. So that both of them are just being very genuine people, they're just two sides of the coin of of good and evil, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:42

Um and I think uh the post-Iron Maiden bit, you know, obviously we've talked quite a bit about how good Mr. Fines is. Yes, but that scene where he's kind of like you know, puppeting out what Jimmy has like told him to say. Yeah, he seems so stiff. You can see it on his face where he's just like, Oh, this is fucked up.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:05

When when Jimmy starts saying, and we can do this, and yes, and member, and it's like murder. Uh yeah, yeah. He's like, Oh, I didn't realize how fucked up. Yeah, his conscience, yeah, he has empathy, and his conscience kicks in. He's like, Oh, you're true evil. Yeah, it's not worth me saving my ass for what you're gonna do out there. Yeah, feed me my own intestines, I guess. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a yeah, it's a fucking beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:34

It's so fucking good.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:35

Yeah, I think I think he yeah, I think he's I think virtually every performance in this movie is excellent. I think Ray Fines is the main character, very underrated. I just see like I think I don't like Spike. You don't like Spike's story, but I don't think he does that good either.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:53

He doesn't well because he doesn't, he's not an active participant.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:56

He is passive, he's not he's not fine, he's not given much to do, but I think he is believably in way over his head, yeah. And that that rings true to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:07

I and I do I do come back to I really like him pleading with that woman to take me, and she doesn't. Like, I like that scene.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:15

Yeah, well, you think this lady is gonna be like a good person, and she's like, nah. Yeah, it's a good reverse, it's a good twist, it's a good reverse.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:22

Because you see enough of her, you're like, you're the other main character of this movie, this is gonna be interesting.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:30

And she's just gone for that's the fascinating because well she comes back, Nick. I don't know, she might, but I like having her. We have the expectation of she's gonna be sympathetic towards him, and we have the opposite for Jimmy Inc., right? Yep. Where she's the one who, when she sees Spike under duress, she's like she saves him. It's okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:50

She big sisters in except she goes, It's okay. Satan, the Lord of Blood, will take care of both of them. Well, but she's still taking care of them, though. But I'm saying she's nice. To him, but she goes, Yeah, no, the Dark Lord's got it. So you just hang with me. We're gonna go meet Satan and we're fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:06

Yeah, but I think that's a that's a really interesting and I I had a note about I had a note about that too, because yeah, she's she's the true believer to the point where like she is ready to murder Jimmy Crystal because she like doesn't believe him. Yeah, she'll kill anyone, but at the end of the day, she still saves Spike because she's just like this kid doesn't know. Yeah, she's like, you know, she's like, hey man, we murder people. That's what we do. That's what we do, but at the same time, she's she recognizes him like you're not cut out for this. And that goes into the like the identity and the the um authenticity of it, right? Your true self killer, yeah. She's she sees that in him of just like you're not a Jimmy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:47

And there's nothing wrong with him not being a killer, like she doesn't look at him, go, You're weak, you don't serve purpose, I want to kill you. No, she's just like it's fine, you don't have the steam for it. Like, let's how it is. I like it.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:56

She's all about just like this is the reality, we're just dealing with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:59

Yeah, here's an interesting idea. She could come back in the third. Who that lady? And then she meets Killian with Spike, and she's like, Do you have any idea what this little boy does in the farmhouse? Oh, he won and you see what I'm saying, like now Killian has to deal with there too. Yeah, there's like no, that's the most evil person I've ever met in my life, and Spike has to confront that. That's that could be interesting. Yeah, that could be cool, yeah, depending on what angle Alex wants to go with. And yeah, I'm super curious about Samson. What is he doing with Alphas? They talk now. Yeah, and he put a loincloth on, he was he's still stupid because he thought the train works, like he sat down like he had a ticket, fucking idiot, dumbest big dick ever.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:46

He's like, and then eat him. I love that he's dressed, and then he has to it it's very he goes back, yeah, exactly. Because he had to kill all those motherfuckers, and he comes out just but it's so good, but it's so fucking good in terms of the filmmaking because not only are his as he's getting doped up over the weeks, his eyes are getting less red, yeah, the the centers, his pupils getting less red, and then during that train fight scene, he's getting fucking blasted on and bit and all the stuff, and he's not turning back, yeah. Yeah, so I love that kind of just subtle story telling him.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:21

I actually, and and they, you know, they really only like did it once, but like I loved that one, like it wasn't a POV shot, but essentially a POV shot of Samson in the beginning where you see the like demon face on the person. Yeah, you would get many point of view shots from it, it's almost like scary jump cut. Right, and then you're just like, you know, it sets up that whole like Kelson's like, I've seen them kill babies. Yeah, and there's no reason what are you seeing? Yeah, you know, and I I love that he set that up. I also, you know, I kind of love the the like bitter twist of like Kelson uh discovers that he can cure these people and then he's dead, he's dead, he's dead, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:02

But also the resources are minimal too, which is also I think sad that that probably broke Kelson's heart. It's like I got this close. I'm running out of medicine though. Yeah, yeah. That weighs on him.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:14

Yeah, there's so much good little stuff, and yeah, with with Samson starting off fucking eating the brain, which I also made a note about because I thought that was a great like that's a that's not to return to the living dead, like eating the brain.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:29

I was like, that's an that's a classic off, like but you have that, and then as he's slowly becoming human again, not only does he put on the clothes to cover up William's favorite part of the uh trilogy, unfortunately, but he sees a berry and he's like he's eats the berry, yeah. I can eat this. I don't have to fucking scoop out a human being whose I just rip their head from their fucking body.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:55

Well, we're getting into cool uh random things. Yeah, in the beginning, once a kid gets stabbed and he just keeps yelling, Jesus, oh my god, yes, what are you calling on those shite cunts for?

SPEAKER_05 1:32:06

I love that. I wrote that down too. I love that line. Oh shit. So fucking good.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:12

And um one of the things that stood out to me so much, and again, Nia is awesome when they're doing the charity in the barn, and then they go, You pick somebody, you fight them. If you win, you live. The dude drops a tear when he picks the little girl on the floor. He goes, I'll fight her. And she looks so fucked up, and then so but him thinking I'm about to kill a little girl, yeah, he drops a tear.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:39

And and that's the thing, too, is you have her that's good transition back to the psycho and her being like, I want to take his trousers off to torture his fucking dick, which is terrifying. Yeah, but like, which she's right, she's like, You picked me because you thought I was gonna be the weakest. Again, we have she's a fucking crazy psycho killer person, but as soon as she gets hit with that fucking uh hook and she's dying, she's a little kid. She's a little kid, and it's like my cat. And she's talking about cat litter. Yeah, it's just like this brilliant fucking depiction of head trauma this happens to people in real life, and it's very fucking disturbing, yeah, where some other random memory will come up.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:13

And like I do have I do have a slight gripe with that scene. It's a because no one heard or saw it. It's a very small gripe, but it's like I had that thought where I was like, she just got a hook in her head and she's just standing there talking, and nobody really saw her.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:30

You know what it made me think of? Nick saying cars aren't allowed to be sneaky for civil war. Yeah, exactly. I was like, no one saw the about the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:40

Until she falls over and that's cinematically either.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:42

It's like she's in the middle of the room. You you guys all saw the scene.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:45

Yeah, I mean, I get it, it's dramatically. And I get it. And like to your point, like that is also like very fucked up and disturbing when you like take a step back and you like oh you the you you realize the reality of why that's happening and and all that. And yeah, I I get that, but it's also like eh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:06

No, it it it is a corny movie. They would have they would have seen that hook flying down before it even hit her. Exactly. I do love the masks made of shoes. Yeah, it looks cool. I think that's an awesome image. Great design. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:20

And also just creepy. Yeah, very creepy.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:23

No, it's yeah, it's effective. That's that as the film poster.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:27

You brought up the the leather face thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:30

You know, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre thing. Simple and effective. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:34

Oh yeah. And and Samson, after he eats the berry, he wipes his fingers on his clothes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little subtle thing. And I love I love the moment when Kelson almost cries when he says moon as well. I love that. Uh God's so good. Good shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:49

And it I think, you know, you said you got a little bored watching it this time. And like it, you know, it's totally I'm I'm with you that like the spike stuff isn't necessarily the strongest. It's not the hook, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:02

The hook's in her head.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:03

But hey, but like I think all this stuff that we're talking about, all these like incredibly strong moments that are in the writing and in the directing, none of that's in 28 years later.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:18

Unfortunately, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:19

And like even if that stuff was in the script in 28 years later, it's not getting delivered in any meaningful way.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:27

It does make me sad Danny's doing another Alex Scarlin script because I think Alex Scarlin's shown he does his work better and other directors have done it better. Yeah, I think so. It's just not a good pairing.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:39

Yeah, and I just think Danny Boyle is old and I just don't think he's like, yeah, you don't have anything to say.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:46

Yeah, he's having fun, he's being creative. I sure alright, I got one more random line. Do it, and then I have a quick thing before we jump to the best. Okay, go ahead. No, you do this.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:56

Jimmy Inc. crying when she realizes that Kelson isn't Satan because she's the true believer, right? That's right, and she asks him, so you're not Satan. And he says, Nothing is, no one is, there's just us.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:14

What that does to her for the next movie is gonna be fascinating. And it says everything about humanity.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:19

Like talking about the god stuff, you know, it's his atheistic point of view, but yeah, there's just us. And she cries and she says, Yeah, well, you put on a great show.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:29

And that's why that is good. I forgot.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:31

That's why I love that. I was that's why I don't think this movie is about religion. You know, I even though he just comments on it. None of his movies are, but he always talks about it. Yeah, there's the religious hypocrisy in there, but it's like Nick's saying, it's more the humanity for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:46

Yeah, and it's more like he's interested in humanity's belief in religious systems and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:52

Well, I think he's more interested in like I don't think he he's interested in the belief as much as he is in like the damage it does to people.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:00

No, it's about the idea that humanity wants this, but just that there's only us.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:04

But it's more about the people. Oh, yeah. Than the belief and then the like structures of the religion, I think. I know you don't fully.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:11

No, no, I'm I'm sitting this one out.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:14

But like Dave, we're not fighting just because we're here. I'm sitting there.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:17

Stop trying to make us fight, Dave.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:19

Now he's now he's the aggressor. Yeah, I'm not talking about what I think Alex Growman has to say about organized religion at all right now with this movie. I'm sitting in the street.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:27

Boy is not in a safe space, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:29

Honestly, about like 30 minutes ago, I was like, hey, these guys haven't fought about anything today. They're really behaving themselves.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:37

So before we get in before we get into year end one. Well, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:40

See, I sorry, I do think I agree with you that Alec Alec Alex Scarland has thoughts about this. And he has things to say about this, he has opinions.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:52

There's a bigger thing to say.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:53

I just don't think that's what re this movie is really about. I agree. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think he's using it as a conduit to talk about other stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:01

And it's way bigger. I I I did reference uh there's kind of thematic uh vibes for Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I have two movies I think this movie should be paired with. Okay, and I don't want to explain it. Okay, but I think it's interesting. This in Gummo or this in Disclosure Day. I haven't seen Disclosure Day. You don't have to, because it's not that good. But I think this movie in my head is interesting to pair with those two movies. Like, what do you mean by pair? Like, watch them back to back? To watch them and analyze what they're saying and how they're saying similar things but on different ends. Okay. I think the concept of child abandonment, what they go to, how they're treated from gummo to this, the the concept of uh this overlying Satanist evil with children, and then with disclosure day, whether or not God or religion's real, who's using it and how scared it is if it was to be forced upon you to admit the truth or the reality. Does it break you? Does it grow you? Do you evolve? Do you crumble from it? What are we holding on to that's so important? And the thing that Nick is saying about that, it's just us. I think that's a lot of what disclosure day is talking about is connection, empathy. Kelson is a disclosure day type of character done by a good writer with a good script. Okay, they're saying similar things a little bit. I think that's interesting to me. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:44

I know I didn't have two together.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:46

That's interesting. Yeah, I gotta think about that. But they're definitely not like if you like this, you'll like that. That's definitely not that. But I think they're they're they're tackling fairly similar subjects thematically interesting together in very different ways, which is always fun when I see those through lines with movies. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:05

Okay, interesting. That's an interesting call. Yeah, yeah. All right, so everybody watched. You said you said year-end wrap-up, but we're we're getting into seasoned end wrap up, not year-end.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:17

So set it wrong, some stupid.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:19

That's all right. We all are. Uh sorry, I'm gonna include Dave. Do the thing where I include everybody disparaging.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:25

Nick a little less, but all of us are dumb.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:28

Uh so we always do our either rankings or tier lists here at the end of the season. Who wants to start off? Do you want to go William with your we should go, we should go movie by movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:40

It's hard because I rank tiers. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:43

Yeah, it would work for tiers. You're right, you're right. Yeah, but I fuck it up.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:48

I need to switch to tier.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:49

Uh no, it's interesting to do. It doesn't matter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:52

So you because William does actual order of like I like this the best to one through twelve, which I did forget to put devs, so I gotta I gotta make a mental note of where devs sits. And I'm gonna start because I don't know where you sit, and we always sit kinda close.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:10

And it might just turn up we all we have the same exact ranking. Yeah, wait, how about this? How about this?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:14

We'll do it this way. You say what your ranking is, and for each one, we say what our tier list is for that one.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:22

That sounds good.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:22

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're doing. So you're like, this is my number one, and then we'll say what tier it's on. All right, so big surprise here, boys. Number fucking one. Of course. Never let me go, stood the test of time, still an incredible movie. Yeah. Of course, absolutely, S tier.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:39

S tier.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:40

Yeah, number two.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:42

Can't stop thinking about it. It's maybe my favorite Alex Scarland character, Sunshine.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:47

S tier. I did A tier.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:50

Awesome. I got S tier. I mean, now for me, I will acknowledge that there is probably some nostalgia at play. Oh, it's great. I saw I saw 28 Days in the Theater, I saw Sunshine in the Theater. Like, I I I'm an early adopter of Alex Scarland. So I've got a lot of love for him. However, I will say that like when I revisited it, I was like, this movie fucking rules. It's so good. Oh, yeah. This movie fucking rules. Like I need to live in the sunroom. I know why you think it's A and not S. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:19

Which is fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:19

And that's fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:20

And two, it's so fucking A. Speaking full disclosure, the only S tier is Never Let Me Go for Me. Because I love Never Let Me Go that much. Sure, sure. That's fair. Yeah. It's in a it's in a league of its own for me. Number three, not the basic Civil War.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:36

A tier. I gave it a B.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:38

Yeah. Because like while like I was saying earlier, I think it's it's pretty impeccably made. I actually it didn't sit with me as much as I thought it might. Yeah. And it's probably just it's just not one I'll revisit. Like I'm really I'm really glad I watched it. And but the B is more like the craft is excellent, but like the overall experience, I wasn't like, oh fuck.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:04

And that's how it's an interesting thing because I would have put it in a B tier if I only saw it once after re-watching it for that second time. It was it's A tier. Okay. Because you pay you're able to pay more attention to it's one of those things where it's like you're when you watch a movie for the first time, you're like, what's going to happen?

SPEAKER_03 1:43:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:23

And then once you know it's gonna happen and you can experience the movie again and and see the filmmaking and stuff a little bit more clearly, because so you're not so much as focused on the narrative, like it that's what notched it for me because I would have been exactly the same way.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:36

And I think it goes back to you saying Danny Boyle 28 years later, it's not scary, it's not tense. I think Alex Garland as a director, this is tense, this is unnerving. He's better at that than I think this is a really good directing from him pulling things off that I he hasn't done. When I look at this, the next two, I would also consider A tier. Number four, X Machina.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:05

Yep, A tier, S tier.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:06

S for you. I got no notes on X Machina. Yeah, yeah. Like, and honestly, you're right.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:12

I think you're right too.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:14

I there's something about it where I I I think I just like a bigger swing, and that's totally fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:20

Like your reasons for X Machina not being S tier, I I would probably like X Machina would probably be my number one.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:29

I get that, I totally get that.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:30

And I also think for that time period in Alex's career, it is as quintessential Alex Garland as you can get.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:39

Yeah, well, it's one of the most uh influential science fiction films of the past 20 years for sure. Yeah, I think it's easily he goes right from my five. This also be the surprise.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:49

Jeff Barrow. I know you guys don't love it. Dave, honestly, thank you for pointing that out because we kept getting to talk about it. Yeah, because he did more work with them, yeah, and I didn't know. And the more we can preach about Portishead, the more I appreciate you for bringing that because I didn't know. So thank you. You're welcome. My number five, which would end A tier for me. Okay, my number five's warfare.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:14

Uh B tier for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:15

I abstain haven't seen it. Yeah. The more I think about it, I think he nailed his metaphor and the thing he wants to say, and I think directing wise, it it's some of his best because it's so focused.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:29

It's great.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:30

Trimmed all the fat, you know exactly what he wants to say and how.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:35

And he did it through image, sound, tone. There's the actually, the more I watch it, I'm like, this is a really special movie. I will think this is a big fucking deal that he pulled this on.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:48

I will probably watch that. You should. Um, I think I talked about on a previous episode that I I hadn't watched it because especially coming after Civil War, I was like, I was like, I don't really need Alex Garland telling me how horrible we are.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:03

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:04

But like I I recognize that again, it's probably not the movie I think it is, and I'm I'm probably willing to the filmmaking's good.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:12

It is the movie you think you is, but it also isn't. It's just kind of like Civil War, but it's much less political.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:17

Yeah, yeah. That would end my A. That is number five. For six, I would say devs, which would be the start of B for me. I put it in A. I put devs in B. I put it in A.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:28

Probably for similar reasons. Yeah, I think it's an incredible piece of work. I don't know how much I need to re-watch it.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:34

Yeah, the parts that stick with me, and this is the problem. The B tier, this is the definition. The parts that stick with me really fucking stick. I'm watching Jesus, the cave, I think it's incredible. As a whole, yeah, not enough sticks with me where I say the whole piece of it is A. So it's a high B. Yeah. Uh right after that, which would be seven, Annihilation, which I just described.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:04

B tier. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:05

I got annihilation in C tier. Whoa. See, that also makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:10

I like the balls of C tier. Yeah. I think it's you know what? I think it's got great stuff. Hold on, hold on. We're making a mid-tier adjustment.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:19

The Bennett Delegate.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:20

Also in C tier.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:22

I think I think it's got great stuff, but I I just don't think it fully comes together. God, how annoyed I was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:29

Yep, C tier. The shimmer, folks.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:32

The shimmer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:34

Area X.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:35

Area if it wasn't in the book and Area X was the original idea, I think we all would agree that's kind of a lame, lazy, unobtained name for an area, but because you have a previous connection to it, it's easier for you to defend.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:52

Look, I'll be honest, I didn't really like the book either, so like that's why Area X is a bad name for anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:59

Sure. Pick eight. Also B tier, men. This is almost interchangeable. I'm not sure which one I like more because my problem with men is I don't love the experience of watching it. I don't have many things to say critical or negative. I think everything it does mostly works, but when I'm done with it, I'm just like only a few moments stand out. That's my problem with men.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:26

Yeah, C tier for me. C tier. C for you. I get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:29

I'm okay with it. So you've never seen a guy come out of a man pussy.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:34

I'm just like ranking them slightly different because I have more S tier stuff. Yeah, yeah. I hear you.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:39

Uh after men, I would say now this is the tricky part that I'm still racking my head. I don't know if this is B or C. This is the end of B. I'll say that Bone Temple.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:50

A tier for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:51

I've got a B.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:52

A. B.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:53

I've got a B, but I think I was thinking Bone Temple is like high B, maybe low A. I was kind of wavering because like I did really, really like it. But in the context of the tiers, yeah, when I'm looking at like all these things that I have as like as well together with if we're comparing Bone Temple to I don't know, something like even 28 Days, I don't think it fully holds up, but I I think it's really great, but I don't think it's that great.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:26

Now for my C tier, 28 years later. D.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:32

I put C. I didn't do anything D.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:34

You know what?

SPEAKER_05 1:49:35

And now I'm Because I don't want to punish Alex for the mistakes of Danny Boyle.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:40

That's fair. I need to take the liberty that Nick took. I need to switch these two. Dread in front of 28 years later. Dread is better and more enjoyable than twenty eight years later.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:52

Dread is A tier, bro. Dread's dread's A tier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:54

Dreads towards the bottom for two.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:55

Dread's A tier.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:56

I'm coming to the end. Dreads. Oh, whack. Dread's this thing. Third third.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:00

Bottom. Really? I think some of the stylistic choices in dread don't fully work all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:06

I don't even know if I agree with that. I let me say well now it's it's obvious. My lowest one is 28 days later. My bottom three is 28 days, 28 years in dread. Do you know why though? Because when I look at these amazing movies, still great, after watching everything else, nothing in 28 days later sticks with I think 28 days is in S tier.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:29

Yeah, none of it's 28 days. I got I put B.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:32

I think it's S tier. I mean, I think nothing with dreads. I think for a debut, I think it's a good movie. Yeah, it's a good thing. And I think even re-watching it now, it's like I think it's intense and visceral, and I think the cast and the performance is great. I think the script is great. I have I I mean I I think it's kind of unfortunate. I could I if and it changed the game for zombie. I'll tell you this.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:57

If I because I'm I'm kind of breaking it, but if I tiered it, they're all bees. If I'm being completely honest, but you just want to do that. Yeah, you something has to be at the bottom to make it less. No, that's fair. That's fair. These are all bees. The problem with the bottom three, 28 years, dread, and 28 days, just nothing broke the sunroom. True, nothing broke the the White House run. Nothing broke any of the ex Machina back and forth. Her tapping and talking to the other robot, like the bear from Annihilation. Like when I go through everything he's done in his career, nothing comes from those bottom three movies where it's stuck in my head. There's still B-level quality movies, though. I don't know, man. There's just not a high from there that I'll never walk away from.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:52

I mean, like, there are moments in that movie that like are still just burned in my brain. Like that opening scene where out of nowhere that monkey just tears down that corridor, attacks the woman, and then she just starts vomiting blood. Yeah. Like to see that in the theater, yeah. I get that. Out of nowhere when you're just like, hey, it's a new zombie movie, and you see that, you're like, Revolution. What am I watching? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's real.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:16

Um, but can I give you a counter? A priest came out of a male's pussy. He was birthed from a man's vagina, a priest, and then he threw up another man.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:27

But also, like, like Brendan Gleason getting a drop of blood in his eyes. That's what sticks with him.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:34

And then like tearing around because he's like fighting against like I was gonna say that and the church are probably the two things that stick with her.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:41

There's so much stuff in 28 Days that like like fucking hate the angle.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:45

Her him walking up the stairs as the shot twice.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:48

I hate it. Her chopping her friend's arm off because he gets bit, and she's just like, no, fuck it. And oh dude, that movie almost front to back, I think, is just like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:59

But freaking movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:02

So at the same time, you're like, yep, that part, yep, that part, yep, that part, but none of it stuck with it. It's a tier, it's a tier.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:08

No, but that's what I'm saying. It's like these are good movies. That's a B movie, a solid B movie. I totally disagree. I don't have critiques for it. I can't nitpick and go, it's not that good. I'm just saying, like, I'm different when I saw Never Let Me Go.

unknown 1:53:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:24

Well, sure. I'm like, what the fuck was that? Why'd you do that to me? That's why it's double S tier plus for me. But yeah, some of that, some of that also.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:33

Some of that also really comes down to taste, right? I mean, because like I grew up a horror movie fan, I grew up a zombie movie fan. Yeah. So like getting to see something like 28 days later in the theater. Yeah, I did, yeah. But but like in a genre I already like, and to see it thrown on its head and not just like like, yeah, you know, uh Night of the Living Dead and Day of the Dead and Dawn of the Dead and all this, like, yeah, they had they were social commentary and stuff like that, but like to see somebody legitimately doing something new in a genre that felt like there was nothing new to do, sure, that and then Sean of the Dead, yeah, were like, oh my god. Yeah, you know, you did all different, but you still did it. And after 28 days, like we got zombies in culture again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And point the gun at Barbara, like it just It exacerbated. We don't like we don't get we don't get the walking dead without 28 days. No, say what you will about the property, but like it's a cultural jump.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:34

Yeah, no, I again I have no critique. I just I mean that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:40

No, but that's what I'm saying. It's like it comes down to taste, like you have no critique other other than like zombies not my thing, so it didn't hit me.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:47

I get it, yeah, yeah. But yeah, no, this is like dude, this ain't fucking Michael Mann. Nope. This ain't fucking glass. Nope. This isn't um six underground. Like Alex Harlan's a fucking man.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:01

Yeah, he's amazing. God damn man. And we have to stipulate for this season we wanted to do something different. We usually do directors who we see as diamonds in the rough and who have classics that we love, and maybe the rest of their stuff is a little rocky. Yeah, and we find that interesting because if we were just to watch Paul Thomas Henderson movies, we'd just be sucking his dick the whole time or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:29

The Chris Farnley shows.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:30

Yeah, it might not, you know, so that that doesn't sound particularly interesting to us. And actually, this is kind of the first time that we have watched something. We were we had seen the majority of his films, and we actually love the filmmaker. So hopefully it was an interesting experiment. We were very happy to have a lot of our friends on for this season, and it wasn't just us blowing him.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:57

Yeah, I think he's a really interesting one because his hit ratio is so high. Yeah, like you're saying this isn't Michael Mann, this isn't M. Night Shyamalan, but there's still so much to dig into.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:10

We need to argue about with Annihilation and men in even some episodes and concepts and devs, like the it wasn't just a full ball wash, it was like hit or miss.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:21

And he has other people fucking high tier though, direct his absolutely stuff, yeah. Yeah, and it in that way, it's like there's almost no episodes where you don't have things to kind of like pull apart. Yeah, there's also there's no episodes with like Shyamalan where you're just like, This is terrible.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:38

Yeah, it's an endurance test. Like, can we get through none of that? Yeah, I felt bad for Nick at a point because he was like questioning, like, I don't want to watch it.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:46

Yeah, well, yeah, because it's yeah, again, you're wasting time.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:50

Watch stuff generally is for the show. Yeah, and I think one of the most critical things for you, Nick, was in one of the highest tiered movies is Sunshine. Yeah, like one of your most like I actually hate this and I think it's bad and it hurts the movie, yeah, is still a fucking S-tier movie or an A tier movie. You see what I'm saying? Like, oh yeah, that's like that's how could when it's good that's so fucking good.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:19

Yeah, and the concepts are great.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:21

And after every movie, you're still always kind of like, I just I'm really curious to see what he's gonna do next. Oh yeah. Even even the stuff that you'd watch to like be like, I just I'm really curious to see what he's actually got to say, like what I'm gonna dig into.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:35

Like you know coming off of devs going into war.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:39

But it was it was never like, well, let's see if he has something to say. Exactly. It was always just like, what are we what are what are we gonna talk about? There's always something.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:48

Yeah, and we discovered a lot about what he's interested in, which that's the main thing that I love about doing these director, uh, writer, creator seasons is this singular point of view. What is this human being interested in expressing to the rest of the world? So, yeah, I think it was an interesting experiment. I still don't think we could do like PTA or something like that. But maybe we'll get there if we do enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:12

I think we can, and it would be more incumbent on the guests because PTA high hits, but like there are people that hate technology.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:23

I think there would actually be there would be more to talk about in PTA than you.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:26

No, yeah, that's true. That that's true. Maybe, yeah. Because the the conversation will also turn to-Cause no one's in foul. There's no perfect director.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:34

There's no perfect director. Let's just get this out of the way if it ever happens. Me and Nick are probably gonna do what we did with uh Never Let Me Go with Punch on Glove. So take that one out of the way. We're all probably gonna grab a different part of the movie of like this spoke to me more than this part, or this doesn't work for me. Punch on Glove withstanding, that would probably happen with PTA.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:55

And and it would be interesting to track what he really likes in terms of his early movies and being young and then getting older. Yeah, I mean, it would actually be because one battle, I mean, it's just like that's such a culmination. I think there's fancy. I think there's meat. I think there's meat there. There is. Maybe it was a bad example. Maybe we build in a couple years.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:13

He's I think we've grown because he was one of I think the the example me and you always gave was him and Nolan, where it's like we can't do popular directors, yeah, and we can't do directors we just of course obviously love too much. Yeah, critically. Yeah, I think growing, doing more seasons, I think we know a way to do it now. Yeah, and it's not just us going, I like it.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:36

Yeah, it's hone in on what they're trying to express and and where they struggle. So, yeah, maybe and yeah, having guests on for those big names would be very fun. Just because it's fun to hear other people's opinions, yeah. Uh, and yeah, and you guys can give us different insight than we're not doing PTA next. Yeah, we haven't even announced what we're fucking doing yet. Because we didn't decide until after last week's episode.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:00

We thought we had an idea. It wasn't, I don't think neither of us were particularly excited about it, but it worked.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:06

And our guests weren't particularly excited about it.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:07

And everyone kind of talked down on it in the way of like, eh. So season 10, because it's 10, kind of a milestone. We switched it up. This is the first time doing a writer, writer director. That's Alex Harwin. Correct. We want to switch it up again for season 11. So this is the first time we're gonna do a series that neither of us have seen none of. Because usually we do a series where one of us has seen it and loves it and the other one hasn't.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:33

This is the first time we're coming in insanely blind. Yeah. We're going to also stick to a thematic tie that we stumbled into. We're doing Attack on Titan, another animated show.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:47

Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:48

I know I almost don't even really know what it's about.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:52

Uh there's giant people that eat people.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:55

Yeah, I roughly I roughly know that there's giants that attack a city. That's it. That's as far as I've gotten.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:02

That's all that we know, and we but we've asked around. How much of the show is there? I think there's four seasons. It's not that I think there's four seasons.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:08

I think it's a shorter run. Uh, my brother Sean was one that did specifically go, you guys should do that. That would work. You guys will get something out of it, and there's something to talk about here. Yeah. And then there were a few people at work that almost said the exact same thing, not knowing that I do a podcast, but just referencing anime. They're like, Yeah, that has a thing that made me look at the world different. And I was like, That sounds interesting. Maybe we should do this.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:33

Well shit. I mean, like, that makes me feel like Josh Jenkins is just gonna get even farther ahead.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:40

I don't know. We've never seen this.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:43

Yeah, no, I mean I'd be willing to, I'd certainly be be willing to give it a try.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:47

I mean, just listen to a couple episodes first and then we'll see if it sounds interesting to you. Yeah. But yeah, if any b any other guests out there have seen it and are interested in it, let us know. That is an unexpected pick. No, exactly. Yeah, yeah, because we were thinking of someone else and we discussed it with you too. And we discussed it with a couple other people, and they were just like, eh. So which I think it this will be more interesting because we're completely blind. Yeah, we don't know the filmmakers, I haven't read the manga. But yeah, we've there's been unexpected praise of it where it's just like there's there's something to it that I th I guess breaks people's brains, and that sounds interesting to us. So yeah, so it's gonna be an interesting, yeah, interesting season. Yeah, Tank on Titan, I believe it's on Hulu. It's on Crunchyroll for sure. So just start out with that first episode or two, and yeah, we'll be back next week. Hopefully, we'll have some guests on that season, but yeah, it's gonna be an interesting season 11, a show neither of us has ever seen. And uh hopefully it's good.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:48

Yeah, I hope because if this turns into a Nick, like I hate this, and I'm like, well, we're here now, so sorry. We'll finish it. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:59

40-minute episodes we're in and out. Very interested. All right, Dave. Thank you so much for coming on for the finale of season 10.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:07

Thank you guys for having me.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:08

Of course, anytime. And uh yeah, we'll be back next week, and hopefully, William will put together a trailer somehow. Maybe we'll just do like a simple teaser trailer.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:16

We'll work something out. Yeah, yeah. All right. All right. I love you guys. Love you too. Love you guys too.