Bridging the Gap between Estate Agents and Mortgage Brokers

In this episode of the Mortgage Mavericks podcast, Ash Borland talks to Matt Giggs about his successful career in the real estate industry. Matt shares his journey from working in football, transitioning into real estate, forming Giggs & Co, and starting his training and mentoring career for estate agents. Matt emphasizes the importance of personal development, authenticity, providing value to clients, and effective communication in having a thriving career in real estate. He also talks about his vision for the future, his plans to travel the world teaching principles of real estate and the story of his YouTube channel 'Matt Giggs' aimed at real estate agents.

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Transcript

  📍  📍 Welcome back to another episode of the Mortgage Mavericks podcast with me, Ash Borland. And today, we're joined by a real special guest. Actually, this is somebody that has had a massive impact on my career in my life. And he might not know that because we've only had a couple of conversations, but I've been that guy stalking him in the wings since I first got into the industry.

And I'm bringing him on here today to share his story and to share him with you because a lot, you might, if you're not in the mortgage, if you're in the mortgage industry may not have heard of him, but I think you really should. And if you have already, then you'll know you don't need introduction. Matt gigs, mate, welcome to the show.

Hello. How are you, Ash? Mate, I'm very good. I feel like you're only down the road. I've took my gilet  off.  A little bit hot and sweaty there, but anyway. That's the Giggs gilet. That's like a famous thing, that. That's literally caused my... I'm bearing all, mate. I'm bearing all. I love it. I love it. Matt, for people, before we dive into, and I'm gonna...

unpack what I think and all that stuff as we go through this. But before we dive into it, just give people a bit of a background as to who you are, how you got into what you do today, because it's been a very interesting story.  Sure. So I left the football career, I left the football career. That's debatable at the age of 19 and done a few different jobs, worked on building sites and that wasn't for me.

Ended up with my mom saying, go and be an estate agent. I fell into it as a trainee without a driving license. And that was 28 years ago. And I've gone through the corporate world from trainee up to director and led big teams and done a lot of training over the years with the state agents in the early two thousands up till when I launched gigs and co really in 2012, launched gigs and co single brand in Sydney.

It's where I live. And it's just gone from strength to strength, got great people, great teams, had loads of great people work through us over the years. I've also gone on to do brilliant things for themselves. And I've ended up training thousands of agents, entrepreneurs in estate agency, mainly over the years and sold over a billion pounds worth of property in the whole time.

So it's been a really, it's been a really cool journey. And now I tend to do training and mentoring for estate agents who Building their own businesses or self employed that kind of thing generally speaking So if you want to subscribe to my youtube channel, i've got to get used to this because  A real channel where i'm putting loads of free content out every single week so it's matt gigs the real estate agent coach and it's real because My philosophy about estate agency when I first started in 1996 Was I didn't realize that I was just being myself and that brought Stronger results than trying to be a typical estate agent at that time if you can imagine in the late 90s there's a lot of white socks and waistcoats and  You know all that kind of stuff very typical of the industry pushy want to get commissioned sales And it wasn't I've never really aligned with myself So I've  when I fell out of that kilter and tried to follow the numbers Success dropped and when I've re engaged with who I really am and focused on my values and the way I want to do it and how I believe a state agency should be done it's yielded really successful results and that's what I teach.

So there's so much there to unpack already. So one of the things I wanted to ask you on that is that I know from my experience, we live in the same area. So the Cambridge here area, and I remember getting into a state agency and. You would just set up gigs at that gigs and co at that point. And I remember it vividly because it was unlike, and you said about being a real person,  it was unlike anything else we'd ever really seen, to be honest.

And that's why one of the reasons I talk about quite a lot with clients and with people, when I'm talking about how a personal brand and a brand that's real can, Can be a disrupter in a market. And I remember seeing it firsthand. I actually remember at one point working in an estate agency in St.

Newt's and everybody, it was like within a year, everything had, it was if the market had gone and it all gone into your office, it was quite a crazy, which was amazing. It was an amazing thing. So  what was your. What was that mindset shift? What was the thing that made you go? You left that corporate world and you...

Because that's quite unique to do. Oh, it was it was really tough. We had our first child, big mortgage. A lot of us do in the corporate world, you feel trapped. You've got  lovely cars, life insurance. You've got all of the perks, which I'll never knock where I was. It was a real experience and learning.

And, the years before I started gigs, I just realized I wasn't loving it as much. I felt like I was disconnected with the approach that we were taking and there were some brilliant years in the Countrywide group when I worked there before and it was when there was a lot more freedom and fun  and you were given the training and the development and that meant you were As a leader, you were training and developing the people around you, and it was just, don't get me wrong, it was very heavily focused on numbers.

And I think that's where I started to fall outta level with it. And that's when I started to, I, I nearly left the industry together actually. I've said that many times before, but I have I, I thought I'm gonna have to do this. And it was really. I'm really grateful they actually got to that point because I never would have done what I've done and I started gigs and I then started social media because the website guy said to me you need to be on  facebook and I freaking hated the idea of being on social media.

I couldn't think of anything worse. I was one of the worst In the group dealing with emails. It's just I lose myself in spreadsheets, dashboards. I lose myself in emails and all that kind of crap. So I'm very much a people person. So when I went onto social media, I never really knew what you were supposed to do.

So I just told people what I was doing and why I was doing it. And that's all I did. And I was really proud. So I'd be shouting out the team all the time, but I genuinely only thought. The people that liked were watching, and  It was really weird for the first year or two the amount of feedback that I got from people where I thought I didn't even know you were engaged.

I didn't know you were a part of the circle, you know I was on a public account so anyone could really see it. I just didn't really know what impact it was having It was completely authentic. It was part of my early part of being, in my own business and relishing it and and reveling in it in some ways, because we were creating  very successful results and service levels in a very short period of time, like record breaking levels.

And I'm really proud of that beginning. It's been very hard to maintain it because I think. The start is much easier than the middle and the finish. And if you go and run a marathon tomorrow, the first few miles are a lot easier than the last. But I really do look back at that with some pride that we did impact the market so quickly to the point where.

People that I'd be valuing their houses would be saying how come you got so many boards? The last agents just told me that you pay all your friends to put boards up and I was thinking Wow, I mean talk about get your competition riled. This is brilliant and then I was hearing that we overvalue it then I heard we were undervaluing and it was like This means i've made it, and we were just having fun That was a word that I would use we were super focused on our objectives and Whilst there were some really rocky patches in those early years, especially when you go into entrepreneurship, you do it because you want freedom, flexibility, and all of that stuff.

Forget that. That goes out the window when you get into your own business. It was seven days a week graft. It was like my baby. It was my other child. And and it still is. And it was really exciting. And I'm still excited when I look back. And so when you did that, cause that's, it's such a fundamental shift from where you'd come from.

And from, like I say, from as someone in that area, it was so different to anything else I'd ever seen for me. There was this, I remember because I said, I was an estate agent and I don't even know if you remember this. I remember you had a big impact. Like I said, on my career, in fact, huge impact on multiple reasons.

But in a good and bad, but in a good, isn't a good really, to be honest, because I remember meeting you.  At one time, I went for an interview with you. remember this the first time. And I remember meeting you and you said something, I didn't come work with you for this one reason. It was your word.

And it was inspiring thing. You said something, which is something I want to build on is you said you came in after I'd met with Paul and you said, we had this interview and he said, I think you'd be a great fit for the team. But I have one question for you. He said, I think you want to more, I think you want to be more like me than you would work with me.

Yeah. And I remember thinking, and up until that point, I remember being like, I'd never thought of myself as ever being somebody you could be more than just. And I remember at the time thinking.  Shut up, mate. You don't know what you're talking about. I want to work with you. You're like the best in the area.

I want to work with you and make a lot of money. I wish I took you on back now, but anyway, it's... But I remember you saying that, and I remember thinking afterwards, if this guy thinks there's something that he saw, something that no one else saw... And I remember believing that. Your ambition and your drive in what you were doing at the time, how you looked after yourself, the way you, your mindset around learning, it wasn't that I didn't probably want you, I just don't think  it would have been the right thing for you.

And I've watched you equally from a distance and see what you've ploughed your time and efforts into and what you're building is incredible. I  was right. You were right. No, you were. And that's what, but that's what I mean is I wanted to, so I wanted to come to, to touch on that is how do you like approach like yourself?

That was a very, real thing to do. And I know that more people I've met who've been interacting with you, there's never a negative thing with you. You're very honest with people. You're very upfront with people, which is, I cringe at some of the things I've said to people over the years because it's always been with good intentions as in.

I've tried to get people to take responsibility, get them to own stuff because I think if you don't, you become a victim of life. And if you become a victim of life, then it's, you're on that like slippery slope where everything's outside of your control, everything's everybody else's fault. And I've really, I've personally hate that because of what it did for me in my life.

Decades ago and how miserable I fucking was. So I always want to make sure the people understand that rule of life is in your control. You've got to own your shit. You've got to own your career. You've got to own your actions. You've got to take responsibility. The trouble is with being honest with people is not everybody's prepared To listen, and they will twist it in a way which suits their narrative, and I think sometimes I've fallen foul with that years ago, where I had great intentions, but, if those sound bites were carried into other conversations, it would probably make me look a little bit harsh, if that makes sense.

But I maintain,  um, 100 percent that everybody that I've interacted with and given them feedback for is to help them.  And it's the same with clients and I've walked away from clients. I've, quite happily said to clients, you shouldn't buy this house or you shouldn't list with me. I really believe that.

Our business is a people industry, whether it's mortgages, houses,  it's the people industry. So if you don't think you're going to connect and build that relationship and deliver their outcome,  what are you going to do then? You're going to end up losing your energy, you're going to end up fucking them off, excuse my French, you're going to end  up creating a really toxic environment.

And if you can't be honest with people, if I can't, in my mind, if I can't be honest with you, It's very unlikely you're going to be honest with me, and they're not going to be laying there at night wondering what's going through your mind, what you're talking about with other people, and I don't need that stuff.

It's hard enough running a business, let alone having people that sprawl around you, telling one thing to your face, and then going behind your back and talking bullshit. That includes clients. I'll call clients out. I want clients to understand that the advice I'm going to give you is to get you to your goal.

Experience of selling thousands of properties now, you don't have to take it But that is what i'm here to do. And if you want me to do that's what i'll do So when we launch gigs and co it was black and white no gray areas I'm going to sit down with you and i'm going to tell you how you're going to sell your house with my plan and  it worked and not for everyone.

I'd be lying if I said we didn't have some fricking frustrating situations over the years that went wrong, but I always own up to it. I'll always take that responsibility and move on. No matter, I make loads of mistakes. I've made thousands of mistakes over the last 10 years, and I think you just got to own it and that'll make you a much better person.

So one of the things that. And you, I know gigs is very well known for this in the area. And I know this is something that mortgage brokers struggle with. I think agents from everyone struggles with it, which is knowing their own value and being willing to lose something  and like put that flag in the ground and lose that business because you're not going to wave on your feet.

That's such a rare thing in the industry. Two questions I want to ask for you is. At what point did that become? Have you always been that way? Or was there a point where you were like, I'm going to stop selling myself short and then also on top of that, because quite a lot of people in this have staff and teams, how do you then take that mindset and make that run through your entire team?

Because that's something you've done. Both of those incredibly well, I have sold myself short and that's where you know it's wrong. If you trust your energy and if you when you realize you've  Negotiated with someone. I mean we had a sale yesterday that the buyer almost blackmailed our client to on the day of exchange and we paid this difference as a company because The clients had already moved their stuff into the other house and they had a license agreement to move to do just that and the guy obviously knew this and Oh, you know For me, your value is your value.

That's your self worth. That's what you believe you can give to people. That's the difference that you make. And if you don't really believe in that, and if you don't know what that truly is and what that's going to give somebody as an outcome, then you're always going to be on a race to the bottom. So I think the first thing's first, I've been, I've never been a bottom feeder.

I've always been a someone that always  backs my ability to help a client, not just from a communication and service standpoint, but actually To understand that I can bring more value to their sale than somebody else and to then So to do that, you've got to really know what it is that you do that's different You've got to know what your tangible value but also what your emotional value is for someone's because I think Homesellers when they go on this pathway To move home or sell their home.

It is an emotional process So what are the things that are going to give them comfort? That's mainly communication because no matter what any challenge that comes up along the way If you've got great communication you build trust and transparency if you've got trust and transparency Even and i've had this when the most awful situations arise you can break through it And it's such an easier conversation to have.

And that's what's helped us in the recent market compared to the previous one. So to really influence is the key of bringing it through your team. So it's stories, it's statistics, it's examples, it's client feedback, testimonials, it's training, it's repetition of the same message. And equally You've got to raise your standards and we've had times where the standards have been up here.

We've had times when they've lowered to here and recognizing when they're lowering is just as important as keeping them up there. You've got to see that, what are we doing here? Is that delivering what the customer needs? We've done a in the last 11 years We've done a sale where we charge the client nothing because the lady was promised a Sale completion within a six week period it didn't happen.

She had no communicate communication from one of my guys He admitted that was the case. What do we do instead of doing a ombudsman three or four hundred quid? There he goes a little cheeky, goodwill offer. It's no, you don't pay us a penny She saved herself three and a half thousand four thousand pounds, but That is then demonstrating to my team,  it's an expensive training session,  but you won't fucking do that again, right?

That does not happen, because if you make promises you can't deliver, you are going to lose our reputation. And we have had people do that over the years, and they don't do it deliberately. It's part of their value system. They don't recognize the importance of what the other person's experiencing and feeling.

They focus on their own needs first. And I get that. And the world is full of people like that. And I slip into that category every now and then, and I get it totally right.  But if you're in a people business, you have to put people needs first and then deliver, and then you will enjoy the results and the rewards.

So build your value, you'll build your business.  So it sounds very much my dad was head of training at Connell's  for mortgages. And he used to say this thing all the time, it'd be mortgages and he'd be training in compliance. And he used to say, you get the, the tops, the top, like Achievers and they'd get up and then come and do their talks at the end of the year.

And then the big, you'd be in a country, right? It's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And he'd say,  everyone would be going, what's the secret? What's the secret? And they'd get up there and they'd talk about all this stuff they do. And he said, if you just read the training manual and do the things and do the stuff you actually should do,  that's all they do.

And that sounds like you say, if you do the job properly,  then you'll get the you'll get all the results you want.  I think we, we all need to build our confidence in ourselves  first, and I think when you build on your confidence, personal development's been probably the single biggest pillar of development of my business.

So  it's really started with me first, the more confident I've becoming myself, the more I'm going to learn, the more I'm going to grow, the more I can then influence the people around me. And I think. Part of being a leader with your team is to understand that people will make mistakes, you share yours, we've got to be honest with each other, vulnerable with each other.

The thing I think is you've got to make it, you've got to make your environments whereby  people can talk to you about their challenges. So if it's fees or if it's, getting a deal put together or whatever it, you want people to be able To talk it through with you because more often than not, you're only one conversation away from a solution.

So most people that have worked for me over the years that have adopted that mindset of going, I own this, I don't feel confident, I need to talk to you. It would, they always leave feeling clearer, more confident. And I think for me, that's what we build as leaders is confidence and belief.

You build confidence and belief, you build a great team, especially if they're all working together. I love that. I love that. You just, you touched on then a bit about your personal development and that's what I  always admired about you. We have mutual friends. We know each other. Jim Stevenson is somebody I think, Jim went to school with me and I'm good friends with Jim and he's a good guy.

And I always remember,  He's very into personal development. You're somebody that was, I was getting into it when I first met you. And it's been a huge part of my entire life. How important has it been to you? And the follow up question of that how have you invested in that? Obviously you don't need to say the money, but people I often find people don't want to spend the time or money. 

I've invested in, look I  when I first met my wife. We went for a night at a pub and we had a load of drinks, we got a taxi home, and the next day I went to get her car, and I, it was a tiny car by the way, so I looked the right fool in it, had my glasses on, and then the next thing I've listened to the CD that was in the car, and there was this yank talking, and I thought what an idiot, he, what's he on about, these aren't the countrywide tapes, and he was chatting away and everything else, and I gave it a bit longer. Then I can connect with that bit. Then about half an hour in, I'd done a few laps around the town so I could listen to more. Because what I realized, and they, and most of the personal development speakers and these, they cover very similar ground and they dress it up in their own unique way and then they'll present it and it attracts their audience and so on and so forth.

So  I, I understand the  trepidation or the negativity that can be associated with personal development.  But I really found the personal development made me think differently about myself and about my future I think if you're not careful you can lose yourself in it And I think you've got to be really careful that you don't Veer too way too far away from who you really are in terms of what are your core values And I remember when I done my first event So I spent thousands of pounds on personal development to answer your question Done the tiny robin stuff had a coach da and it really did help me.

It got me a lot clearer Then I've done this event and I remember doing this event and talking about turning over a million pounds in four years and all of this kind of stuff. And I thought, I remember feeling really uncomfortable about it because that was the way to sell tickets. And people want to know who you are and what you've done.

How much you make, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. Bragging about that. And it was really like.  Wow, I didn't know this was going to be involved, and you're seeing these ads going out there with your stuff on it and you see your comment and I wasn't quite prepared for that at the time because actually what I realized is that  it's never been about the money.

And that is not a lie. That's genuine. What I've realized is that There's a way of achieving financial success and results, but if you work it back down to the areas where if you personally develop, you take the right mindset, you take responsibility, you look at challenges and solutions and you can work through anything.

And I think for me, Personal development could be listening to podcasts but the difference between what i'd consider to be the shelf developers and the personal developers are the ones that listen to everything do fuck With it and then there's people that listen to less but do more and i've probably gone from you know listening for the last 15 or 16.

Probably not 18 17 18 years so then  You know really probably focusing on less things but doing those things that i'm learning Better. So I used to be like a stone skimming, skimming across the water, trying. Yeah, I've come back from an event No, my team would be like, oh fucking hell. Here we go again And I  do cringe a little bit about some of those times but again Like I said at the start the caveat is it was always with good intentions, but people weren't necessarily ready for it around me and it created a probably an environment where by they felt Maybe potentially alienated because they weren't going on the journey that I was going on and that was never my intention I think they would all recognize that  but actually as a leader now, I look at personal development With people who reach out who show me and demonstrate that it's something that they're serious about first because if they are they'll invest in it and I  You know, people invest a lot of money into a lot of things, material things mainly,  and the thing to really invest in for me that's made the difference in my career is how I think about myself, how I think about market, the opportunities, the service, the customer journey, the people that I attract. 

 It's incredible when you can shift your perceptions. What you can achieve and you do, what you focus on expands. So if you're an estate agent today and you're going to, I speak to a estate agent, I speak to a lot and I'll, how you doing? Oh, it's fucking tough. Oh, yeah. The thing is they're honest with you.

It's never tough when they're speaking to somebody else, but it's always really  tough. It's challenging, but what is the challenge and what are you doing about that challenge, and actually. The tough part is them not speaking to enough people and giving enough value. If you were to just isolate that, and if you were to solve that problem, and let's say, can you double the amount of people you speak to?

 Not to get them to do something, but to give them some value that's going to help them in their lives moving forward. What will that create for you longer term? Don't don't go short term, which is what we're taught in the corporate world, which is numbers book.

It's. Just valuable conversations valuable insights. What do people out there not know about the market that you know? What are the statistics the stories the examples that people would need to find out what their equity looks like at the minute? So for me personal development is about self awareness Self development.

And then, when you've got that self development, self awareness, you build self validation, so you don't need people to tell you how good you are, or a client that says, no, you don't, I don't want to list with you, I want to list with another agent. You don't get down about it.  You know what value you bring going back to your earlier point, the value you bring, you know what it's worth You know the tangible value to the client, you know what the plan looks like You know that nobody else is going to do it the way you do it if they don't want  That is their choice.

It doesn't make me a lesser agent and I feel, if you don't work on yourself to build that resilience and resistance to falling into the trap of self pity, you will absolutely flourish in these times right now. Oh yeah. I think it's the best time right now. It really is for everything. I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

And something I wanted to... Yeah, there's so many points. I love all the stuff you're saying there. One thing I had was for me, because you said about earlier about the victim mentality. So I live in an over near Cambridge. Are you guys where you guys live? And you're probably here all the time where in our areas that we were in, I remember walking the dog and looking around and thinking house prices going up and up and up.

And I'm thinking, To live here, I've got to, that's like a million pounds if I want to buy the house I need for my kids and I had this shift and this is a thing we talk about being like understanding is all the time thinking I'm going to move away, going to do this, going to do that, it's not fair.

And then I had this weird shift where I started thinking, those houses are off, people live in those houses and they're being sold all the time. And I remember going to my run and walk, so why can't I live in those houses? What's the, what is separate? And that was that shift of going.

And then I went to this realization of, okay, I need to stop seeing money as a resource, as like a, as a scarcity thing. And instead of new, this is why I love what you're saying is it was like, I need to become a valuable person because if I'm a person of value, money then becomes probably you have the exact same thing.

It then becomes actually I have to turn it away more than I have to say.  And that shift. That's exactly that. So for me, that's where we need to head as a group is to have a cap on how many clients we really want to work with. So we guarantee the value that we're going to deliver. And I think, it is making that shift.

And I think we're all We've all got space to grow, right? And I think sometimes when you're ambitious and entrepreneurial and you're a dd adhd Things going around in your head you want to be there tomorrow before you've even left and it's very easy to give yourself a hard time but self development creates awareness around the fact that yeah doing that's not really helpful and Building your own value is really helpful and I think I would strongly advise any of your listeners that are feeling really challenged by the climate right now to ask themselves, is it the climate or is it their mindset?

Now, the ones that come to the realization that it's their mindset are likely to be a step closer to the opportunity that presents itself in the market today. Absolutely. And then the other thing I wanted to say on that, which I think is fine. I'd be interested to hear your take on this. Cause you said you went one way and then the other, and I've been both sides.

And it's, I now say to people like,  For me, it was mindset is where your business goes to die. Now, what I mean by this is if you're a personal brand, like you are like someone who's personal development, what I've seen over the years of doing this and watching other people and being in this kind of cohorts of people is.

Everybody starts off. Let's take you as a, you're going to talk about the practical things that you're going to talk about being a real estate agent, which I love. And we're going to jump, talk about that and the YouTube in a minute, but that real estate agent, you talk about the things that really help people.

But what I noticed is as people start to get more successful in it. People start to listen. They start to move into being a cheaper version of Tony Robbins. They start to move their way over and that's what and that's right with it. Yeah. And they start to go into this kind of I'm going to talk about mindset.

As that, as if you're the expert mindset, no mindset is important, but you become the content. And then I watched that all the time where I've seen people do the same thing as me fall off into the weeds because they are now hosting seminars with a small group of people. And I think if you just stood and stayed and spoke about how to increase your business or how you would have been 10 times more successful than you were.

And I think this is a.  a trick and I think it's that grass is greener, I think as well I think when you're chasing the money and I've made this mistake I've gone into business because financially it just looks like a no brainer and it's been a painer not a no brainer it's because I've not really been that passionate about it and you end up  not really Getting involved, not really giving it enough attention.

Like you would, if you were really like I did with gigs and co, there was nothing that was going to stop me. And then you go into other businesses and you doing it for the wrong reasons. And I think, sometimes it's very easy to see the gold and then the journey to get to the goal requires.

It requires passion and authenticity, a lot of people talk about authenticity I say real estate agent because when I train people i'm not training them to be me i'm training them to be them  Now, can you try and get people to be themselves today? That's a bigger challenge than them going to pick up the phone and speak to someone that's the bit that they've got to find is who are they?

What are they believing? What value do they bring? What beliefs do they hold? How do they? Absolutely distinguish themselves and stand out in their marketplace by being themselves. Now, if you can do that, you'll attract your audience. You'll attract the people that value that. And actually, when you  attach a valuable proposition to  that's in the eyes of the client very worthwhile.

You don't need  hundreds of clients at any given time. You really do provide better service for lower for more commission or. You get repeat clients and it just scales from there. And I think for me scaling without sleeves is one of my yeah, I love that because estate agents can be Like I said, I was in the lounge with people at the early time of launching gigs getting told loads of lies by a lot of agents and you think you know, i've never talked about the competition because the competition  Isn't my priority is the person i'm in front of at any given time And if i'm focused on somebody else or what they're going to do and what they're going to do next What they're going to value at what the fees are i've lost my focus in the client And if you lose the focus in the client feels it if you lose focus on yourself Your authenticity goes because you're now fighting for business rather than  to push people away if you if it doesn't go So coming back to your point personal development is It's unique.

It's individual. You take it to where your values are retained. Don't lose your values.  Going through that process. I've done it. I've made the mistake of probably Exploring avenues which you know attempting it looks good and everything else But is it what I really want to be doing? Is that the passion?

I love that No, and that's a brilliant point So wanted to one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on as well is I wanted to talk about You know My audience are pretty much all mortgage brokers we've got fca people who listen to lots of different levels from starting to ceos and The thing that I wanted to talk about is this bridging this gap between estate agency and, and mortgage brokers, because I think it's a very, it's an interesting one because it's one of these where you're, you are, a leader of multiple different estate agents on a group, in large scale and a lot of brokers want to know how would they get an agent, and let's say that, you have your own broker, your mortgage thing, but how would, if you didn't have yours.

Theoretically, what would be the right way that they should approach somebody and actually  teach this this mindset, which is what can you give? So I think when we're looking for referrals, it's a very much a transactional thing. And I think, I'll pay you and you give me this and I'll get that and everything else.

But actually, I think the best brokers give the greatest value. They build no like trust very easily with the people they understand that the agent is actually their client and You know if you've got that mindset where ash is the if you're the estate agent ash and I want to work with you I'd be asking you questions about what your biggest challenge is keeping deals together right now and you'll go Mortgages or conveyancing and I'll go right.

Okay. How can I help you in that area? What can I do to give you some value here? let me demonstrate my value and over time gradually you'll give me one or two opportunities and Then it's the communication for me. That's the next part I honestly think i've got a great guy called barnaby works with me in smith.

It's a gigs and co. He's standout, the best communicator. He's not the flair man, he's not the bullshit. He's got all of the ideas. He's  just brilliant at communication. He's client centric. So he really does. absolutely adores helping his clients. So I feel that from him and I know what's going on all the time.

That's less of a headache for me because for my business, that's what I need. Now for some estate agents, it comes back down to the mortgage broker's value. If it's about driving their commission up and driving transactions forward, go transactionally financially driven because you'll find your way through there. 

If you are about service, reputation and building valuable relationships for sustained periods of time, you will go and work and give value first. It's a longer game, but I promise you once you're in and you deliver on those variables you'll have the no like trust. And once you've got no like trust, people recommend people, they like people, they trust people they know, and it becomes a lot.

So you've got to think about what can you give? What are the challenges that agents are facing right now? What can you give that's going to help them with those challenges? For me, it's complete awareness. Most estate agents are stuck in their own little world. And if they could open their mind to the possibilities of how a client will benefit from independent opinions, advice on the journey and how they're.

Set up and everything else. What could that bring to the whole party, so I think it makes sense for the people that are focused in a particular way to go after a particular client  Or agent and the same in reverse and by the way, i'm not a charity, you know I'm, not trying to build a charity business  I love Results, I love turnover and profit.

I love To scale a business. I want to do all of those things though It's been a lot harder in the last two years or 12 months. What I Mustn't compromise on and what we have definitely improved in the last 12 months is our service has gone And got even better and you know the results for our clients will be at the price might not be what they want We're delivering better advice around better journeys etc And I think brokers have got to think about what part can they play for the agents in those areas for me I love that.

I think that's a big important thing is that, as you say, I think if a broker is going to be part of the team, they have to be part of the team. And I think that is, that's something that like I said, it's good to hear it straight from the horse's mouth because... I haven't met enough brokers that have,  a lot that I've worked with have just expected Roast Duck to fly a mouth because they've said, Here's our referral fee.

Here's our arrangement. Give us a shout.  Give us a shout whenever you need me. And then they don't hear anything and go, Oh, I've gone and asked, I've introduced myself. And you think what you've done is you're going out, it's like me prospecting Ash, and you're, we valued you now six months ago.

Come on and get ready to go on the market, that client's thinking we just want to say, but if I rang you up and go ash What do you think about the market at the moment? You'll give me your opinion brilliant. Okay. I've seen this one for sale Have you seen it? Yeah, i've seen that What do you think of the price and then all of a sudden I honestly think and I said this  The best agents brokers are in conversations more than the rest Yes, and they're not relying on emails.

They're not relying on whatsapp. They're not relying on text those things can leverage time But the critical conversations are the bit that's like a forgotten art and I don't think brokers that aren't going to meet the agents and understand the agents needs are going to get any further than just Oh, we have it and I'll make sure you wrap up on this one, but we have it with a with, I help people with their insurance sales and how to increase sales and things like that with insurance.

It blows my mind, the amount of people that will try to sell life insurance, critical illness, income protection, and they tried to do it by sending a bronze, silver and gold package on an email. And I know you were talking about your kids. You have to get them into an emotional state that requires at least an hour and a half of talking with them properly Like I can't believe and I haven't got time.

No, I'm too busy and then We look at our phones and then you go what's the average screen time at the minute, so let's see So look I think I just think we've been very conditioned As a state agent, I'll start in my expertise area. When Rightmove launched in 2000, 1999, 2000, and beyond, maybe 2008, 2009, where it really was Doing the agent's job for them if that makes sense.

And it's created laziness It's a bit like fast food for estate agents, right members like fast food It's almost like you've forgotten how to put a recipe together go and buy the ingredients, Estate agents are now able to put the recipe together buy the ingredients try the recipe do you know at the minute? 

That's sad because the market that we're in has got plenty of people that need to move But they just don't know what to do And they don't really understand the market in other words So you wanted to move two years ago. The gap was 250 000 the gaps Yeah, I know. Yeah, the mortgage rate was two percent.

The gap now is 150 000 and it's five percent. So Can you afford the repayments and will your needs get met with that next house? Yeah. Okay. That's all you need to know really, isn't it? So I think for us, we, technology has simplified. It's simply over complicated things.

Yes. Yes. A good old bloody conversation and helping someone navigate through their, to their needs. We'll end up with you putting the phone down or leaving someone's house by them going, That was bloody helpful.  But I'm not ready for another year. I just had a client said, I'm going to give you the listing in February, I'll give you my house in February, you can work your magic in February.

Brilliant. I'm not beating the phone down, come on, you've got to list it on Boxing Day. It's, for me, don't forget why we're all doing this. Most of us who are working in the people industry, we want to help people. If you don't, you are knackered because your approach will shine through as desperation and desperation stinks.

I love that. It's so true. I could go deeper into this, but I'm going to wrap it up. Matt, mate, if people want to learn more about you, they want to work with their agents, doesn't want to work with you or they want to go to your YouTube channel and stuff. Where's the best place for them to go? Yeah, Matt Giggs, your real estate agent is for estate agents.

It's free content every single week. Videos with all the challenges. It's really good. I watch it every week. It is really good. Someone said to me, why are you doing it on YouTube? It's a real slow bird. I'm like I just think it's the right place for us to grow this particular brand. I I think agents are gonna really, once they catch onto it, I think they're going to get lots of value from it.

And for me, it will. That's the main thing. Instagram, social, a lot of the other social, it's very short, sharp stuff, but I like the idea of giving sort of 10 to 20 minute  videos on subjects, which are quite core to our hearts. So yeah, that's the main focus. But LinkedIn, I share a fair amount on as well. And I like Instagram  for I don't know, really, maybe ego purposes.

Not that I've got a particularly large following at the minute.  It's always good fun. I follow you on all of them and I would say definitely people go and check out your YouTube channel because it is really good. The quality is really good and I do think is what you to say about the slow burn. I think that it's the right place to be because we are the market where it's going to go in the next 10 years.

Everything else you are, you will be placed to be the number one in what you do because you already are, but now it's getting it into that space and I think that For me as well, I want to be traveling the world, teaching these principles. That's my vision. I'd love to be back on this in five years and say, I've just been to Dubai or Australia or America and I'm doing, one of my role models is Tom Ferry in the U S he's a fabulous trainer agent out there.

And, I think do you know what, I'd love to do that because I'm passionate about this industry. And I think you can connect,  you can certainly get better content out there in that channel. I have zero doubt that you will not do that. That'll be absolutely what you'll do. I've been seeing it go, so it's good.

Matt, thanks so much, buddy. It's been great having you on.