The Sober Experience

Brooklyn Roots, Sober Truths with Joe K !! ( Remastered )

• Jay Luis

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This episode is a re-release of one I did with my dear friend and mentor Joe K who went on to the Big Meeting in the sky..we love you sir and thank you !!!!!!

A Brooklyn childhood with bars on every corner. A father who never finished a drink. A briefcase chosen not for style, but to smuggle a square bottle of gin past the front door. Joe’s story is equal parts raw confession and grounded hope, tracing the slow slide from party nights to a lonely chair downstairs, where he realized he couldn’t stand up if his kids needed him. No dramatic rock bottom—just the heavy clarity that life couldn’t go on this way.

We talk about the masks we wear at work—tying a tie by memory, lying to a boss, pretending it’s fine—and the relief of making amends that finally makes sense to other people. Joe shares how an uncle in recovery opened the door with one gentle line: “You’re in the right place.” From there, the heart of sobriety emerges: sponsorship without control, love without transaction, and listening as a daily practice. Stories of old-timers who stayed late, asked “How important is this?” and taught patience show how AA turns chaos into perspective.

This conversation is a primer on responsibility and grace. Joe insists on owning every drink he took, not to punish himself, but to reclaim agency and reduce resentment at home. He explains why non-alcoholic partners don’t understand—and why the sober person has to understand that they don’t. Along the way, we explore how service keeps us sober: buying a newcomer a burger, handing over a phone number, taking a late-night call. These small acts change families and, over time, entire generations.

If you’ve ever wondered how long-term sobriety actually feels—1984 and counting—Joe’s wisdom cuts through with quiet power: show up, listen, serve, and remember the first step. Press play for practical tools, gritty honesty, and the kind of hope you can use today. If this moved you, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show. What moment will you carry into tomorrow?

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See you on the flipside !!

SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to the sober experience, formerly known as the spiritual experience, where we share stories of overcoming problematic situations in life through triumph and working together, as well as recovery topics and all other forms of spirituality, self-help, and the like. I'm your host, Jay Lewis, and here we go. Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Sober Experience. Um, don't forget to subscribe and share on all podcast platforms, uh, including our new YouTube page. Um we could always use the support and we appreciate all the feedback that we've been getting. And uh today we have uh a wonderful guest who I have been you know wishy-washy wanting, you know, been nervous about asking him to come on because he's always been such a uh such an inspiration for me as far as like somebody's uh you know recovery that I've admired from for a long time from a distance and you know as we've gotten uh closer to be friends. So um, but he's here to uh we're we're honored to have him. I don't want to go crazy with all the flowers, but um everybody say hello to my good friend Joe. Joe, say hello. All right, Joe, beautiful. Joe, first things first, where are you from?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm from uh relatively rare these days. I am a native beautiful.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, where did you grow up? What neighborhood?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, in Windsor, Terrace.

SPEAKER_00:

Nice. Did you uh you have brothers and sisters? What was it like?

SPEAKER_01:

I had two older sisters, uh nine and ten years older than me. And uh when I was younger, I could never figure out why God visited older sisters on you.

SPEAKER_00:

So were you like a surprise baby, or your parents just took a 10-year break?

SPEAKER_01:

Um those are questions that I never asked, but it'd be hard to uh it's hard not to believe I was a surprise. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

What kind of uh kid were you? Did you play sports? Were you good at school?

SPEAKER_01:

I uh I was okay at school. I mean I did uh well. Um I was never good at sports, uh never never particularly interested in them, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. What were your main hobbies? What did you like to do?

SPEAKER_01:

I uh watched television. Believe it or not. Uh I remember when the my father brought the first television into the house when nobody had televisions. I remember going to the kid's house who whose family had a TV. You know.

SPEAKER_00:

What did you think then when your dad finally showed up with one?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, it was uh wow, it was amazing. I I sat down and uh and stared. Stared at that's what that's what you did. Stared. Everybody, everybody was in the living room, you know. It was a little screen, and uh you had to uh at the time you wow, I haven't thought about this in years. You had to s you had to make the uh antennas, set up the antennas, they were on top of the TV. Like manually? You had to go and Right. Yeah, you would you would have to do that before they got antennas on the roof and things like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. So was it like cohesive?

SPEAKER_01:

Cohesive?

SPEAKER_00:

Meaning that, like, okay, we're all gonna sit down and watch TV together.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh well it it was cohesive, uh, but I have uh I have a very firm memory of uh I wanted to watch Wyatt Herp and my sister wanted to watch Eddie Fisher. And I got to watch Wyatt Herp and my sister uh poured a bottle of Pepsi over my head as I was sitting on the floor watching Wyatt Herp. So I don't have too many memories of uh arguing, but that was that was that's a an unforgettable memory. That was uh that was it.

SPEAKER_00:

What kind of work did your dad do?

SPEAKER_01:

He was a manager of a uh of a uh a warehouse. He worked for Sterno Incorporated. Uh also in Brooklyn? Also in Brooklyn, down in uh in what was called Bush Terminal and is now called Industry City.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So when I drive through there, they have like those trolley tracks. Right. That was those cobblestone in between the buildings. Like I guess there was like a that was like a huge place down there.

SPEAKER_01:

I remember as a kid, every single building was full of people and businesses and you know It was bustling. Yeah, and the trolley tracks were being used. Wow. Yeah, that was part of the whole deal about Bush Terminal. Uh they people they'd bring stuff in over the uh over the water and they'd uh move it in in there. Yeah it was uh all of that level of industry has left Brooklyn that I know of.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. This I understand. Over there now it's like fancy town.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, so I gather. I haven't been there in a while.

SPEAKER_00:

There's sushi bars, ABC carpet, and like all this other stuff. And I mean there's a few manufacturing uh things that are there, but they're not like making thing things. I mean No, no, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, the the whole world has changed.

SPEAKER_01:

Actually, Sterno incorporated uh Sterno is the famous thing for shafing dishes. Do people even know what Sterno is anymore? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

The only thing I know about Sterno is those flame things that you put underneath, uh is that what they are?

SPEAKER_01:

That's what they were. They were what uh made shafing dishes and all sorts of hotel equipment function.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it so yeah, it's funny because my mom would say, don't forget the sternos.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Okay, so then as you're growing up, you know, um they did you come from a family of drinkers or what was the story then? What was the atmosphere?

SPEAKER_01:

I never saw my father finish a drink.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Never once. They'd they'd pour him a cocktail, you know, and he'd sip half of it. But I had a lot of uncles and aunts who finished a lot of drinks. Yeah. It was it was around me, but I never uh I never saw my father finish a drink, I never saw my mother take a drink, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

So what happened with you when you started? Um like how old were you?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, ev it that's one of the interesting things to me, you know. I have no idea. Everybody seemed to be drinking when we were fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen at parties. And uh my memory is that everybody seemed to be drinking a lot. I'm not at all sure that's an accurate memory. But what happened, I don't really to this day understand. Uh everybody who was drinking a lot seemed to not give it up, but let it go, you know. And uh by the time they were mid-twenties, twenty-five, twenty-six, they uh they let it go. And my friend Dougie and I didn't stop. We didn't let it go. And I I truly don't understand it. I mean, I what I would say, and I still say is I love to drink.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I loved it. I loved it.

SPEAKER_00:

From the beginning.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's my memory, you know. Among the things that uh I am sure of. I am absolutely sure that if I picked up a drink today, I would be drinking alcoholically.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah. For me, it uh fits like a glove.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And maybe like, you know, even if it's like the left-handed glove on the right hand, I'll get it on there. Don't you worry.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah. I have I have no doubt about that. I have no doubt that I would be drinking alcoholically if I picked up a drink.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. When you started, were you drinking alcoholically right away, or was that progression? What was that like?

SPEAKER_01:

I think there was a progression, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh He said it started out at parties here and there.

SPEAKER_01:

And I can remember uh one of the the very firm memories that I have is uh I had two little boys. Uh my oldest son was handicapped. Right. And I'm sitting when were they born? Oh, let's see. Well the oldest boy would be uh forty. He's passed away. Yeah. He'd be forty-five now, I think. Right. Yeah. Forty-five or forty-six, and my youngest is forty now. Right. And uh I remember sitting in my chair, my wife was out, and I was drinking downstairs. They were asleep. And I remember thinking, if something happens, I'm not gonna be able to get up out of this chair.

SPEAKER_00:

That was like a cognitive thought.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's a big bridge between, oh, we're sixteen, seventeen, eighteen drinking at parties, to now you're an adult. How old were you when you think you had that thought? Let's see.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I must have been uh like thirty-nine, something like that. I came into AA uh when I was forty.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. So between eighteen and forty, right, it was just every day?

SPEAKER_01:

Didn't no, it took some time to get to every day. It took some time to every day.

SPEAKER_00:

You were progressing in life, though. I mean, obviously you had a you started a career, you had a wife, had some kids.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, yeah. No, that's the idea of the uh of the down and out alcoholic uh, you know, um is not the alcoholics I hang hung out with. Right. So no, that's uh yeah, yeah, you can uh you can go a long time before you, you know, you can't keep drinking. You can go a long, long time.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. What was your relationship like with your wife when that was going on?

SPEAKER_01:

Well my memory now, because the memory is different than the reality at the time, but my memory now is uh she and the kids would go up to bed. What I remember now is seemed to be earlier and earlier, you know. And uh yeah, that's uh the other memory I have with my wife is uh I went to my first meeting. Uh I used to go to work hungover.

SPEAKER_00:

What kind of work did you do?

SPEAKER_01:

I was a manager with uh I was a manager of a of a pretty large office. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And I would uh You would go to work managing a large office hung over?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean I can remember there's so many wonderful memories of like getting on the subway and thinking I'm gonna throw up on this guy in front of me. You know. Which, you know, I think when I look back, I think uh the insanity of the second step is for real. Yeah. Any normal person would go. In fact, one of I've never forgotten, uh, I worked with a uh a woman who was uh had the same job I had. And uh she was one of these people who never finished a drink, you know. And I asked her uh, because one of the things I did as an active alcoholic was I never ever talked to anybody about my drinking.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Never, never talked to I was not a bar drinker where everybody was BSing each other and things like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Did anybody ever ask you or talk to you about your drinking?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh like that's part of the story too. Actually, I was like uh I mentioned I was from Brooklyn. Yeah. And uh people won't believe this, but uh Brooklyn in the 70s was going down the toilet. It was it was over. It was over. Everybody was moving to Long Island and New Jersey or something like that. Brooklyn was going down the toilet, literally.

SPEAKER_00:

I heard there was like a bar in every corner. People would say that, like Oh, there was.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, and and I lived in a very nice neighborhood then, but there was a bar on every corner.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Every if you know Brooklyn, uh Seventh Avenue, right, there was a bar on every corner from Flatbush Avenue to Prospect Avenue. That's over.

SPEAKER_00:

That's over that's about twenty blocks.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Including all the name streets. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And every uh I mean that's and it's walkable for those of you who don't live in New York. Right. You can stumble from one block to the to the next in a couple of minutes. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And every every block had their own bar. I mean that the the bar at the end of the block was the bar where if you didn't go there first, it was where you ended up. Right. If that makes any sense to any. That's funny. Are there any non-alcoholics listening to this? Because would that make any sense to them? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

That's incredible. Yeah. So did so did people start asking you, say, hey Joe, what are you uh what are you doing with yourself?

SPEAKER_01:

Um again, memory was uh a friend, they're still friends, of my uh the husband of one of my wife's best friends, asked her if she wanted him to talk to me about my drinking when I was like twenty five, twenty-six, something like that. Right. And she told me, and I said to her, we had we had all gone out, I was talking about people leaving Brooklyn, we had all gone out one day to the first couple that bought a house in New Jersey, which is I still don't understand why anybody goes to New Jersey, but that's all other things. And uh I have a way with words, and I said, no. No, that's not necessary. The only reason I was drinking a lot was because it was hot out. Right. So that was that was that was it. That was it.

SPEAKER_00:

And uh how old were you when the kids were born?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh let's see. So I was uh thirty. I was forty when my second son was born, so I was like uh thirty-four, thirty-five, somewhere when my first son was born.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, we weren't if we're doing the math. Right. Ten years before kids show up, somebody's asking somebody else to ask somebody else to talk to you about your drinking, right? This is ten years before you end up in the basement, right? 15 years before you end up in the basement, right? With them going upstairs. And it's already a problem in your mid-twenties.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, when I look back, absolutely. Right. Absolutely. In fact, when I go out and I'm at uh some relative's house and I'm uh looking around, I can I can see. I mean, I can alcoholics don't even hold a glass the same way as a normal person does. You could pick out the alcoholics easily, you know. They're holding a glass like somebody's gonna take it away from them, you know. I'm not kidding.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I um I recognize my alcoholic face in other people when I see it. And I'm like, oh. That guy, he's he yeah, he's not having a good time.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, and I can look at somebody if we're in a gathering and I can be like this guy's wife is busting his balls about his drinking.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Because you can see he's like drinking at whatever.

SPEAKER_01:

I've seen that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and it's on it's on our face, and then but my face can feel his face. It sounds very crazy, but I can look at him be like, oh, he has potential. We'll save him a seat. He has potential. So you're in your mid-twenties, this is going on, there's a big flight from Brooklyn. You are staying put.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Buying the house we're in was the best idea I ever let my uh wife talk me into.

SPEAKER_00:

Did she work at the time or no?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, we both worked all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

We both worked all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so you're young people to buy a house. She's already asking her friends to talk to you by you drinking. Next thing you know, some years go by and it's the same old roller coaster.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, one of the things I will tell newcomers in AA is uh if you walked in the door, you're an alcoholic. Yeah. Nobody nobody comes to AA in a whim. You know, I mean, I I've never nobody comes to AA by mistake. Right, yeah, it's not anything. I've ever met. I've ever I've never met anybody who I've met a lot of people who don't stay, but that doesn't mean, you know, I guess they're out there. I haven't met everybody, obviously.

SPEAKER_00:

But I think they're also out there doing 12-step work. They're in the bar telling people they should go back to AA because their life is miserable. Yeah, I mean, one of the conversations I have with people, not all the time, but periodically, when somebody will say things like, oh, you know, back in the day, AA, we'd 50, 75, 80 percent of people would come in and they'd get sober, and now we're at like half of a third of a percent, or whatever kind of BS that they're saying, right? Right. And my uh defiant reply is that the reality is is that people back in the day really had to be desperate to go to a meeting. You know, I mean, no internet, no cell phones, no this, no that, right? In and even before then, in the 50s and the 40s and the third, like you know, they're mailing each other books in the mails, whatever. But the program has evolved so much so that I think part of it works like too good. Where in you come in and if you go to a meeting a day and try not to drink in 90 days, you're gonna forget that you were a drunk. You know, you cleaned up a couple of bills, your significant other maybe is not so mad at you anymore, your boss is off your back, you maybe you ate a couple of meals with nutrients, and you know, not liquid lunch every day, and then you'll forget that you can't you can't never drink safely ever, and then you'll go run back out. I've seen that happen more often than people thinking the program doesn't work. I've seen people come in and do everything they're supposed to do, and then I'm like, oh no, you forgot that first part of the first step. You know, and then next thing you know, they're back out there, and then they're like, Well, yeah, they find out how patient uh the disease is. It's not just whatever cunning, baffling, insidious, all those uh sloganese kind of words. But the disease is very, very patient. Very, it's just gonna sit like like dormant, just hanging out, you don't get rid of it. And then in the right environment, it's like a fungus. Poof, here we are. Yeah, remember me? You know, so you were still drinking, you said uh your your oldest son was handicapped. He was the first one born, right?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

So what what uh what afflictions did he have?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh you don't mind me asking. He was severely handicapped. It was a uh it was the result of a very difficult birth. Right. And uh uh maybe he could function as a five-year-old and he had trouble walking and uh how did that affect you? I think about him every day of my life.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh especially then you were, you know, you were still drinking when he was born.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's not something you can just put in a drawer somewhere. No, no.

SPEAKER_01:

I honestly believe that if it wasn't for my wife and children, I I got a real I had a real shot at drinking myself to death.

SPEAKER_00:

That was Sincerely.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, sincerely, yeah, yeah. I've never forgotten walking down the block I live on, and there was a guy uh sitting in an areaway. Do you know most most of the people in the country don't know what an areaway is? You know?

SPEAKER_00:

Explain to the listeners.

SPEAKER_01:

It's uh the uh it's usually a concrete uh what would you call it's in front of your house. Uh between the sidewalk and your house, there's a concrete uh part where uh you could go out and put a chair out there. And uh the entrance to the basement is usually off the areaway. So the guy's sitting in the area and uh he's sitting in this ratty old beach chair. And it was the summertime, and he was in uh Bermuda shorts, and there were running sores down his leg.

SPEAKER_00:

Sores like S-O-R-E sores. Sores, right. Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

And he's got a 40 ouncer in his hand, you know. And I thought to myself, I remember it because it was so vivid. And that's part of the thing about sobriety. Hey, hey, you get the message where you get the message. There's lots of messages. Sure. And I remember thinking uh that could have been me. That could have been me.

SPEAKER_00:

Was he older than you?

SPEAKER_01:

At the time I saw him. Probably, but you know one of the things about drinking and smoking dope and stuff like that is it really ages you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well no, it's really because sometimes the reason why I ask is like you see a guy like that, it'd be like, oh, he's pickled. Right. And he's like, Yeah, I'm 34. Right, exactly. And you're like, Jesus, sir. Right. Yeah, but that you know, that stays in your mind.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I've never forgotten that guy. I've never forgotten that guy. You know, that's I know it rankles some people, but there but for the grace of God, you know, go on.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you have you have this one boy, and then a couple years later you have another kid.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. Who's a wonderful, uh he's a wonderful man. He's a wonderful man.

SPEAKER_00:

What was that like in between each child? Were you like scared to have another kid? Were you having those kind of conversations? Was your wife like, hey, you better get your drinking under control because we have this person with this young child with special needs?

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, I don't think I was uh I guess I was working my way up to it and I uh I was sneaky. Uh that's a that's another fond memory of alcoholism. I was you can't make this stuff up. I remember not just me, but lots of people used to carry an attache case to work. Right. And um I switched from a soft-sided attache case uh to a hard-sided attache case, a leather one to a and the the reason I did that is because in the hard-sided attache case, my wife couldn't see the bulge of the uh fifth of the Gordon's gin bottle when I was coming into the house. Because that, you know, Gordon's gin bottle, for those of you who aren't a gin drinker, uh is square. Yeah. And it fit nicely in a natache case. Uh that was hard-sided. I could get it into the house.

SPEAKER_00:

So like uh were you drinking around the clock at that time?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I was drinking no, I mean I I didn't well. I never drank around the clock like a real alcoholic, you know. Right. I was never I drank a lot all the time. I drank a lot all the time. I've run into people uh who ended up alcoholics who never drank uh you know anywhere near as much as I drank. Right, I mean you're they were the real deal.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you're changing your briefcase so you can hide your booze. Yeah. Looking back, it's like uh you know for me, I I drank so much Gordon's one day uh that I never drank again that Gordon's gin.

SPEAKER_01:

And um that was my drug of choice.

SPEAKER_00:

Listen, my parents, as they became more affluent, then the Bombay came to the house, right? The blue bottle. But I already had the bat with Gordon's that I even did I did I give you water?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh no, you didn't.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh hold on, hold on guys, I'm gonna grab the waters. Yeah, they're over here.

unknown:

Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00:

Alright, we're back. So the point is is that I had such a bat with gordons that I couldn't my on the left side of my house where I grew up, we had these pine trees. And if I stood too close to the pine trees, I would smell that pine and it would remind me of the Gordons, and I would want to puke. You know? So Gordons I know pretty well. Yeah, but it looks like you're uh you're on your way, you know. This other kid comes along. How does that change things for you?

SPEAKER_01:

Well I mean that's a really good question. I I uh I can think of is, you know I knew I had to stop. I knew I had to stop. Uh I knew I couldn't keep going on and uh and this sounds very severe, and I I got to the point where I hated myself when I woke up in the morning uh knowing that uh my two boys were you know were upstairs and I was drinking downstairs, like I said. And uh yeah I remember I remember opening my eyes and cursing the day and that's never happened since I came into AA. I've had the worst day of my life in AA, but I've never cursed the day. If that makes any sense to people.

SPEAKER_00:

So how did you go from being downstairs separated emotionally, mentally, whatever, from your family to uh getting into recovery?

SPEAKER_01:

What happened I think you know it's it wasn't any I think it was, you know, waking up cursing the day, hating myself uh and realizing that uh somewhere along the line I I don't know how to describe it, realizing that uh this can't go on, you know. In that sense it's a it's a gift. Sure. It's a gift. That was a gift, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

And uh how'd you get to your first meetings?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, one of the things I haven't mentioned is that I had an uncle John who was uh a real old Irish drunk. And compared to you? Right, right. And he was uh he got into AA and he talked about it all the time with my mother when he was over, and I remember thinking Is it like your mom's brother or your dad's brother? My mom's brother.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh yeah, I've never just I never saw my father or his brother take a drink. Right. Uh so something was going on, and I I have absolutely uh uh by the same token, uh both my parents were Irish and I never heard one happy story about Ireland. Not one, not ever. That's funny. Yeah. And uh so where were we?

SPEAKER_00:

We were at uh yeah, how'd you get in how did you get into AA? So uh was there like an incident or something? You said, all right, that's it, I'm over. And or was it just gradual and you're like one day, hey, look, I have to go to a meeting.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh yeah, I'm not sure. There wasn't there was a pileup of uh of being hung over, going into work, hung over. Uh one of the things I remember uh learning how to tie your tie. When I was working, I was it was everybody was wearing a suit and tie, and I could tie my tie without looking at myself in the mirror, things like that. Uh there was no big uh no big incident, just uh working just reminded me of uh I never I never ever recommend anybody talk about being an alcoholic on the job. Now, if you if you need to go to rehab and uh they'll get you to a rehab, then you might have to talk about it. Right. But I don't recommend it unless uh You're ready to get some help. Yeah, unless you're ready to get some help. Uh but uh the reason I say that is uh I went to my boss and um I had lied to him on a regular basis. That was part of that was part of uh part of the job description. Right. I had lied to him. He'd uh there was a period when I was the only one doing the job that I was doing, and he'd ask me if this had been done. I'd tell him this has been done, and it hadn't been done, and uh while I was drinking, and uh so uh I went to make amends and I told him uh You know, I'm I'm sorry uh that uh I said I'm I'm sorry that when you were asking me uh whether such and such had been done uh I had told you that it was done and it and it wasn't. I'm I'm sorry, I was such a pain in the ass. I didn't I don't think I used those words. And he said uh Well, thank you for talking to me about this because I didn't know what was wrong with you. I thought you were crazy. I thought you were crazy. And the reason I bring that up is they don't know what's wrong with us. They think we're crazy. Why is he lying to me? Well, you know, it's like normal people don't know what it's like to be addicted to alcohol, you know, or addicted to anything else. I am so old that I actually you actually knew the junkies in the neighborhood, you know, when I right when I was growing up. Now uh I always told people the world changed when the guys came back from Vietnam. That's uh it's another world now. You know, it's another world now. I don't I don't think there's anybody in AA who hasn't used, you know, or it seems that way to me. Uh but that's uh it's AA has changed and uh yeah. For the you know for the better. For the better, you know. Everybody's uh I think it's a much broader and open uh open, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

So when you start going to meetings and you start putting some time together, right, what kind of impact did it have directly like on your life? Well, I got uh first of all, what year did you get sober? 1984. 1984.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh I got well cared for, and uh I tell people I know how AA works. It works by the love of one alcoholic for another alcoholic. That's how AA works, you know. Uh I walked in, that uncle who was the alcoholic, uh, was in the meeting. I walked in and he said, uh, what are you doing here, Joe? And I said, I think I got a drinking problem. And he said, Oh, you're in the right place. I've never been pushed around in AA. I've never been told what to do. That's why I remember that. That was all he said. Oh, you're in the right place. And uh among when I'm talking to a newcomer, I tell them, you know, if anybody starts pointing their finger at you and this is what you gotta do, this is how you gotta do it, this is how we work the 12 steps, just walk away. Just walk away. That's, you know, it doesn't, I don't maybe it works for some people, but it wouldn't have worked for me, you know. You know, that's uh and uh yeah, we're um we're not bunch.

SPEAKER_00:

No, that's for sure. Yeah, I mean it's I I always make the joke that as a as a people there's nobody more offended by help than us. Oh, that's true. Right away. You want to help me? Fuck no. Meanwhile, life is burning. I'm like, no, no, I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh it wasn't that long ago I was at a meeting, there was a new guy there, and uh he said he was new, and I walked over to give him my phone number. And you could see it's like, what's this old guy walking over to me for? You know, why why is he giving me his phone number? It's like, okay, okay, you know. But uh, yeah. The uh yeah. It still works for me, by the way. You know, taking calls from newcomers still works for me. I am uh it it proves to me it hasn't gotten any better out there.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right, yeah. Yeah, I mean I think um my experience also is it had doesn't happen a lot for me, but it does happen where we'll bring a new guy to the diner, and we're gonna buy the new guy a burger. And then at the end he goes on a speech saying, Oh, you guys, thank you so much. I promise next time I'm gonna pay all of you and blah blah blah and this whole thing. Because then, like, we're like, listen, uh, we're just gonna buy you a burger. Nobody owes anybody anything. One day you'll do it for somebody else. Oh, yeah, you want to take a pea break? We'll take a pea break. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. All right, guys, we're back. Bunch needed pea break. Listen, this guy's been sober 40 years. There was a pea break. So, yeah, so we're talking about like the magic of AA and of recovery and just you know, the non-transactional. Well, I think it it is in some ways for me, it was taught to me, like it is a transaction, but it's like a pay it forward transaction. Like my first sponsor would tell me, I'm helping you just so you can help somebody else. That's the main reason why I'm helping you, because we need you to help somebody else. I don't need anything back from you. And like, you know what I'm saying? So it's just like I used to thank him, like, you know, thank you so much, man. You're helping me. He's like, he's like, don't thank me. You know, he says, I'm just I'm helping you so you can help somebody else. That is the main focus, you know, that because um there's no governing body, you know. This is not like grade school where somebody's like, you know, there's no exams. We all gotta help each other. Yeah, and I think that's like the most important thing where you can see as the world has changed, even like what you're talking about from Vietnam, but just even now, where like people are really missing that selflessness that we've been fortunate enough to live with for so long. For me, 20, for you 40. But like, I know how good humanity can be. Like, it's not like a theory for me, and I see miracles on a weekly basis. Where like some people they don't they don't have that in their life, and that's like a big effect on me. That I see these miracles, these new guys calling, the new guy wanting to pay you back for a friggin' hot dog. You know, I always joke that like you know uh we uh we laugh when we we we we um we clap when you get your kids back. It's the only place on earth, AA where we clap when somebody gets their kids back, you know? And it's uh it's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean that's uh like I say, that's how I've been treated. I've never been pushed around uh talking about your sponsor. I think I think that was uh you know one of the things uh asking somebody to be my sponsor, somebody asking my my first sponsor to be my sponsor. What was that like? That was one of the most important things I've ever done in my life. Uh because there's uh I haven't said this in a long time, but uh I mean if you asked a a man for help, you were uh, you know, all you all you could get from a guy would be bullshit and excuse me, and you know, sports talk and stuff like that, you know, and then uh I was aware that uh asking somebody to be your sponsor was uh you were asking them to help you, you know. And I've never forgotten what he said. I called him up uh I liked the way he talked, I liked the way he looked. Uh I liked him in the meetings, and uh I got his phone number, and about six weeks later I called him, and I said, uh, oh, I'm sorry it took me so long to call you, and he said, No, no, no, you're right on time. And that's how I've been treated all the time. I've been an AA. No, no, no, you're right on time.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, what does it feel like for you to be able to give that to somebody? All the love that you received. What is it like for you to be able to give that to people?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh it's uh it's an extraordinary blessing. Extraordinary blessing, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

I've I've seen uh just to tell somebody, listen, it's okay, you're right on time. You're in the right place. All of these very like hokey things that you're talking about to be able to give somebody that that exhale breath.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. I've seen people uh the uh you know I've seen people get married and have children who uh and I've seen the children grow up, you know, and uh all in AA, you know. I've seen that's one of the things I've realized is we can change generations here. I've seen people who've come from you know terrible situations uh become loving parents and uh you know you don't have to that's you don't have to relive the past. You can you know it's funny sometimes we go to an AA meeting and you think uh well they're rehashing the same story over and over again. But that's not true. You come until you start having your own story, and then uh if I had to describe in one word what uh what describes AA, I'd say, listen. We listen. We listen to each other. We listen to the guy who has one day. We listen to the guy I I was I was in a meeting, and uh I was listened to. This guy, Eddie. Uh you have no idea who's gonna save your life in AA. This guy, Eddie, he was a longshoreman. Uh and he would listen to me. I'd be uh I'd be going on, this was early on in my time in AA, I'd be going on telling them all sorts of stuff. The meetings in those days ended, almost all the meetings were at 8.30 at night. So the meeting ended at 9.30, and it'd be 10 o'clock at night, and Eddie would be getting up at 5 in the morning to go to work on the docks, and uh, and he would sit and listen to me. And I've never forgotten what he's sometimes when I'm going on in my own head, you don't get, you know, it still goes on. I'm making the I'm making circles around my head now. Uh and he'd say, Joe, Joe, how important is this? How important is this? Yeah. It was real Brooklyn. And uh, and I was so consumed with myself, I thought, and he just doesn't understand, you know. And uh it was only as I got sober that I realized, like, my God, this guy loved me. This guy loved me. He was he was gonna get up, you know. And he sat and listened to me, you know. Because he was absolutely devoted to AA. He was devoted to AA.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's incredible. And I think that's the whole key.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Looking back that you don't realize what somebody's doing for you. And then as you evolved, you can look back and be like, holy shit, this guy loved me.

SPEAKER_01:

The other thing, you're bringing me back to the past. The other thing I remember is this guy, Steve the fisherman.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, him I've heard of.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, he was something.

SPEAKER_00:

He was the guy who used to make the whales.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, exactly. And uh one day we're talking, and he's I'm talking about something was going on at home. And I've never forgotten what he said. You know, when your your spouse or your mate or friend is not an alcoholic, and he said, You gotta understand that they don't understand. And uh, you know, I'm the sober one. I gotta understand that they don't understand. They don't understand. Yeah, they didn't sit in a chair in the middle of the night drinking like a pig. They don't understand that.

SPEAKER_00:

Against their will.

SPEAKER_01:

Against their will, you know. That's the other thing that uh I believe for myself that I could not get sober unless I took responsibility for every single drink I took. And it's it's nobody's fault. It's nobody's fault. You know, and I've seen people who stayed sober and they're still pissed off at their mothers. They're like they're like 70 years old and they're pissed off at their parents. It's like yeah, maybe they're sober, but I don't want that, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

That's uh I don't want that either. I'm not I'm grateful that after I got sober, my parents they still spoke to me. Uh yeah the way I treated them and everybody else. Yeah, that and that's we'll we'll wrap up on this, but um yeah, the longer you stick around, the more your story changes. Not so much the actions that I took, but my perception of what was going on really changes. So it's like when I first came around, sure, everything sounded funny. And they were doing it was it was it was this, them, and them. And then the more I got closer to God and the more I did the work and the more I faced myself, I'm like, all right, maybe it was three percent them and ninety-seven percent me. You know? It's like, yeah. They were doing the best they could, and my response to that led me to where we are right now.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. You gotta be. Somebody said this, um, I don't know where I was. Said, even victims have to be responsible for their actions. It's heavy. Very heavy, but it's true. It's true. Alright, guys, we're gonna wrap it up. Joe, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Dude, you did an hour, you did fantastic. You know? Um don't forget everybody, like and subscribe on all podcast platforms, the sober experience, um, Spotify, YouTube, uh, Apple Podcast, Google everywhere. And um, yeah, listen, I could have stayed I could stay talking with you for another three hours. It I always enjoy your insight and uh the simplicity of your spirituality. It's uh it's always impressive. So alright, we're gonna sign off. Alright, guys, have a great day.