The Muppet Christmas Carol: with Meredith Braun

This Christmas Eve ... Dominic is joined by the inimitable Meredith Braun, who played Scrooge's love interest Belle - opposite Michael Caine (and Fozziwig!) - in Brian Henson's The Muppet Christmas Carol ...

Meredith shares her memories of filming the role, whilst simultaneously playing Eponine in the iconic West End production of Les Miserables ...

A special thank you to Tim Hutton at Stage Door Records for allowing the use of the recording of When Love is Gone  from Meredith's 2017 album of the same name ...

When Love is Gone is available to purchase here at Stage Door Records or Amazon. It can also be streamed on Apple and Spotify

HAPPY CHRISTMAS !!!

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SPEAKER_03 0:16

It's Christmas Eve. And wherever you're at with all your last minute preparations, I think you should pause a moment to contemplate how brilliantly faithful the Muppets Christmas Carol is to Dickens' original story. In fact, the more you know the original, the more you can appreciate the care and detail that director Brian Henson brought to his film. For example, Dickens' line about Scrooge carrying his own low temperature about with him is shown immediately in the film when a shadow appears in the background, and Gonzo and Rizzo shiver with cold as Michael Caine sweeps around the corner for his first entrance. Or the famous opening sequence high above the rooftops that drops down to figures throwing snowballs. However, I do have friends that are more familiar with the Muppet version and are surprised to read the first line of the book, Marley Was Dead, and realize that there's only one of them. I had a similar experience myself reading a Christmas carol for the first time when I saw that Scrooge's former employer went by the name of Fezziwig, not Fozziwig. Today's guest was in this movie, and played the character of Scrooge's young love interest, Belle. At just the tender age of 18, she filmed her scenes by taking a short break from playing Eponine in the iconic West End production of Les Miserables, a show that began at the RSC and conquered the world and was created by much of the same team that adapted the famous stage adaptation of Nicholas Nickleby. So it is a thrill to welcome the inimitable Meredith Braun, especially as I was also in Les Miserables with her, as a young boy playing her brother Gavroche. Meredith, happy Christmas, and welcome to Charles Dickens, a brain on fire.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Thank you for having me. Happy Christmas.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

We're not doing this in uh early November, are we?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

No, no, no, no, of course we're not. And that is literally the first time I've said happy Christmas this year. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Oh, well, there you go. On a Charles Dickens podcast. I mean, that's something, isn't it? You're here because, of course, the Muppet Christmas Carol, um, in which you played Scrooge's great love interest, Belle. Um, and really, when we when we talk about this, when we bring this up, what are the first things that come to mind? And how did you how did you get the audition and and and all of that?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Uh yes, so I was, um, I guess I was 18 and I was in the middle of Le Miz, as you know, uh uh doing eight shows a week and uh very sort of depressing doing Epanine and dying every night covered in blood. Uh and my agent just sort of put me up for it and I went. And uh it was a very simple process. I remember singing the song um with Paul and um hearing very quickly, and it led to a couple of weeks off Limiz, uh, where I went into the studio and filmed it, and uh it was a joy from start to finish.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Gosh, so you're already a very, very young Eponine. In fact, were you the youngest ever Ephanine at this point?

SPEAKER_00 3:18

I don't know that. I I I think Frances was pretty young too when she started. Uh but but but it must be close to, yeah, otherwise it probably wouldn't be legal. But I do remember taking a couple of weeks' leave and going to film it and not thinking stupidly that it would kind of be a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

I mean, I I I grew up watching The Muppets. I am the I a huge fan. I was every Sunday night, you know, I was sitting watching it. Um and when it was on live and we didn't have catch up and all that kind of thing. And I knew all of I I remember the Broadway stars coming in. Do you remember the Bernadette Peters and and Paul Williams was on there too? And and all those stars coming in and just being completely mesmerized, both by the humour, the obviously the colour, and but the it's so clever and it's so funny. Um and I was so to be with them was I was starstruck. We had a read-through, I remember, uh, and I think it was E-Ling Studios and a very big, big, impressive wooden table, you know, with that seemed like 80 people around it. I don't know. It's a long time ago to remember, but and then we did a full read-through of the script. And of course, they weren't the the puppets, but they were doing all the voices. And I'm I I think I missed every cue. I didn't know what I was doing because I was just so enthralled in it. It was it was gorgeous, and there were lovely people. And Brian was his it was his first um it was his directorial debut after his dad died, and uh it was really, really important to him. So everyone cared enormously.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Yeah, you feel that watching it actually, even just as a as a punter, you feel the great care that's gone into it and the attention to detail. Oh yeah. But that but the um so you make it to the read-through, obviously you've got you've booked the gig, but what happened with the actual audition site? So you're Epine, you're in the West End, you get a call to come in. What did you have to do to audition for?

SPEAKER_00 5:19

I think I just came in and sang the song with Paul. It was very low-key. It was I don't remember seeing any other people auditioning.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

And it was a very quick turnaround and it was.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, it was so straightforward. I mean, I guess they they knew I was doing the show. Um I suppose that I suppose that helped, but they were just so warm and welcoming, and I I think I sang it once or twice through. Um I was obviously sent it beforehand, so uh it was it sometimes these sometimes these things are just incredibly smooth. The song just made so much sense to me. I think it's so well written and the words fit so well on the music, and I understood um the journey, the emotional journey. I've I've always been very driven by it's the storytelling for me. It's it's the emotional connection with the story, the emotional journey, and how you connect that with your with your audience, you know, who are you singing to? Um, what what do you want them to do, say, or feel, what what happens if they don't, you know, what are the stakes in the moment before? That's always been what drives me to perform. Um you know, it's great to be able to sing and do this stuff, but the point is the acting and the storytelling for me. And I must admit, probably that time doing eight shows a week, as you know, it's it's exhausting. And uh I don't think I had a very I hadn't studied opera at that point. I was very much belter. Um, and I don't think my range was enormous at that point because I was tired, you know, as well. And it fits the song too. It's just weird. It was the right song. Because it doesn't have an enormous range, but it's just and it's it's conversational, isn't it? It's driven by what she needs to say. It's just quite feminist, which is quite cool too.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

That's true, actually. She knows she knows her own mind, doesn't she knows that he's kind of stringing her along.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah, and she makes a strong decision. You know, doesn't always happen in musical theatre.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

No, it does not. So that's very good. That's very good. So the when Love is gone, though, as a song, this has actually come back to you, hasn't it? Because you've you've gone back to it and re-recorded it.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yes. Yes, so I mean, and and the song itself has had a journey too, of course. It got it was in the original it got cut, of course, straight uh early on because Disney felt it slowed the action down, which of course it does. Um but it makes sense of it, but it's very adult and and they felt, of course, for children. And I remember Brian calling me to say, and he was he fought for it to be in there and he was gutted, he was he was he was so lovely. And I just because I sort of I maybe at 18 you're not really thinking consequences particularly. And I went, okay, cool. Well, you know, it is it is what it is, and you know, we all have roles that stay in the cut and disappear and and that happens to to everybody along the way. Um so I didn't really think much about it, but because it became the year-on-year thing, and because the song had existed and then got cut, people wanted it, began to want it back to make sense of the story.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

But I remember seeing you sing that at the Guilford Odeon, because I saw it, because it was it was in the original theatrical release, wasn't it? The song. I'm pretty sure it was, yeah. Yeah, so it was there, and it's just later releases, I think, where it where it dropped out. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yeah, and it was on a VHS version.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yes, my sister had that VHS, she's younger than me, she was a big, big fan of that film. So uh I remember seeing it there.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

It was so I've I mean I and then I began to hear through the years that people would sort of stop the movie, play the VHS, and then continue the movie and sort of things like that. And then, of course, with with the internet and the rest of it, the song sort of appears. And then what I didn't know when I finally got contacted by Brian was that the he'd been searching because they couldn't put it, they wanted to put it back in long before, but they couldn't find the original actual physical film to put it back in. So he had a team of people, like seven people, for years looking to find this film. And I I had no idea. And then they found they didn't find the original film, but they found like the first copy of the actual film on film, as it were. So they were able to properly remaster it and do the rest of it and put it back in. And I think it got put was it two two years ago that it got back put back in.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

I think so, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

So there was this sort of campaign that built up, which is really was really odd. Um, and re and very sweet. And of course, I, you know, went and had children and they grew they the movie became more and more important as the years went on because it it comes back with you know the holiday, and it's it's kind of up there with Christmas movies, and I it just built in significance, and I just I just never occurred to me at the time that it would be something that came back every year. It never occurred to me.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

But but in that situation, you know your cast. When you find out, and obviously, where is this 1991? So the phone rings, you don't get an email, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

The phone rings to tell you and the script arrived, I've got my script. So I found that in the cellar. I've got the script with the yeah, my name and the market and the call sheet with Michael Cain, and yeah. So yeah, I know it's lovely. And I'm but but do remember mainly I'm a big fan of the Muppets. So that was my thing. Um we had costume calls, obviously, as I say, we had this read-through.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

And how was the costume call? Because that can be that can be for actors, it can be quite nerve-wracking. Can't say, Oh my god, this is real. Or you can come out the other side and go, right, I know what I'm doing now. This is happening.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

They had such a strong idea, it was so well planned, so well organized, and such, you know, there were storyboards I remember, and the imagery, you know, it was just clear. It was so well organized and done that I felt completely safe with them. And I mean, I I it it's quite funny. There is, yeah, that first outfit that I'm wearing in there, there was an incident with um Fozzie, but otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Oh, he's lower down, isn't he? His head level.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

He's lower down, yeah. So it's the party scene, isn't it? And you're standing on these kind of raised uh walkways, and they're in so the puppeteers are in the in the in the gully. I don't know the right word for it, but you're walking on these pathways and they're filming you there. So of course you stop in in a in-between takes and you've got Fozzie at your at sort of chest height, as it were, but the puppeteer's lower down, and you're chatting with Fozzie, you're not chatting with the puppeteer, so they don't go out of character. So you're you're sort of making having chat with Fozzie, and of course, Fozzie was at that height. So Fozzie was making suggestive comments, and I I thought it was hysterical, but it was very funny. So yeah, I flirted with Fozzie, definitely flirted with Fozzie. He was great.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

And then, of course, Michael Cain as your co-star. What was it like meeting him for the first time? I mean, what was it like seeing his name on the call sheet? Did you know in the casting that he was going to be Scrooge at that point?

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Um he's just a charming person and a delight to work with. And I think you know, people don't get to that level and do that much work without being lovely. He was nothing but generous, and we recorded the song first, of course, so we were in the studio.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

There's lovely footage online of the two of you recording that. And he's so kind of supportive and he's and he's really impressed with you as well, just kind of just singing, singing it out, going, I wish I could sing like you can sort of see me giggly going, you know, like oh this is cool. Well, this is what's so impressive, is also you know, it feels like it's a recurring theme, you're only 18, to just have that level of game face and kind of you know, togetherness, to not be suddenly overawed by it.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

I they made me feel incredibly comfortable. Um, because I think Brian made it really clear from the beginning that everyone was playing it for real. You know, we weren't spoofing anything, and therefore it made me feel comfortable because my my approach is always to, you know, find the truth in it, to find the reality. It's it's it's not fake. You know, it's it's real. People think actors are all lying. And actually we're not, we're finding the truth. It has to be real, and I have to understand my emotional journey in order to have confidence in what I'm doing. If I just my I hate sort of just doing a concert where I haven't I'm not acting the role and I'm not think I haven't thought it through or I don't know it well enough, you know, that's my worst nightmare. I need need to be telling the story. And he was, you know, Michael Kane was approaching in that way through the and it's so evident in the movie that he's playing it for real. And it's such a good story, and it's you know, why you don't mess with it. You don't need to embellish it, you just need to play the truth. And and I think that was driving him, and that was driving Brian, and that was driving Paul. So we were on the same page. And you know, they didn't show me any con I mean you could at that age, of course. They they weren't condescending. So many people would bring status and things to it. There just there wasn't there wasn't ego from any of them, which is astonishing, and I've I've tried to take that forward because I think ego gets in the way of performing truth.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yeah, it makes your own performing not as good as well, doesn't it? You know, you've got this other thing going on that sort of takes you out. But when you came to when you came to record that you've got Fozywig's ball and everything, have you? So I love saying those words. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Did you just arrive on set, do little run throughs and and go for it, or did you have I think we we obviously talk more about the direct it it was more directed through the song, through the recording. So by the time we got into the studio, we knew. You know, you you I know there's been you know the lots of um movie musicals since, but you know, you pre-record it and you're singing to yourself, singing it, but because it it's a very big studio and you know you sing I you sing out. I didn't want it to look like you know you're sort of sitting back and not not doing it properly, so you're actually singing it. Um and I've found since that I think again, because I had emotionally blocked it, which is what I'm teaching to students now, um the emotional blocking, the emotional storytelling determines the vocal choices that are made, it determines the physicality, it that drives everything. So when you come to recreate it, as long as you've got the emotional blocking, recreating it or reliving it is quite easy because even when later, you know, I I I went to the Prince Charles Cinema in um Leicester Square does a sing along, Muppets, every year. And I've a couple of years I've gone and I've sort of uh judged the you know the the Christmas jumper competition and things. And I sing along to the song when it's playing on the thing and I'm in front of it. And it which is the strangest experience. I mean it's just really weird. But all the breaths, all the you know, the inter I I I know exactly what I did.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

All that changes through the years is the is sometimes the subtext that you bring to it. Because obviously my understanding now is different than it was at 18. So my the subtext changes, but I do remember it. I have a physical and a visceral memory of it. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Yeah, of course, and even and even just walking the set, you know, the bridge and the snow and how that felt and everything. Yeah. You mentioned vocal technique and styles and everything, and you mentioned that during the time as Epanine, you were in that kind of musical theatre belt placement. How was it how was it for you to then switch to a more kind of operatic sound than for the Secret Garden? That because that's more cosette realm, isn't it? If we're thinking like Ms.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Well, I did Phantom, I did Christine before Secret Garden. So Secret Garden was probably slightly less operatic than Christine. Um but I stopped and re- So what did I do? I did Ms. and then Sunset, which I needed as Betty Schaefer needed some legit elements in there. Uh so I sort of started the training and then I really stopped and I I had about a year of two or three lessons a week operatically to sort of retrain. Because it's a um it's a strange thing when you're used to acting. The head voice feels very different. And you you have to learn sort of the acting you realize the acting comes from within, not through contemporary or vocal choices that you're used to making. I that's not that I could go I could go on for that for hours, but um you go on as long as you like, it's great. Um I'm quite interested in doing some sort of dissertation uh on on the when people are belted and then they relearn or or try to sing legit, what we call legit, why they find it difficult to act suddenly through song.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yes. Is it the kind of the feeling like you've got a plum in your mouth if you've got these round songs coming out that are sung that you feel like you've suddenly gone a bit oh and it's not suddenly it's not coming from Yeah, and you're not yourself. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah. But I think it's it's both the the the modification the vowel modifications and the placing that it's different and legit, but it's also the phrasing, the breathing, the dynamics, the the pull and push of the phrases. So you have to sort of learn that within with in contemporary singing, we break things up a lot. We use glottals on sets, we use lots of different vocal colours, and I think that's that's the way it's more like speaking in the sense that we're having our thoughts, you know, as I'm speaking now, dividing things up. Whereas if you've got long lyrical phrases, you you have to learn that you can change your thought in the middle of a phrase or the middle of a note. You can change your emotion behind it, the primary driving emotion. It's a bit like doing the patting your head, rubbing your tummy thing. You just have to learn that the thoughts are separate from what you're physically doing. Like, you know, once you're used to driving a car, you can think about something else or do, you know, you have to get the technique, but then you have to figure out how to bring. And a lot of actors, when they've, you know, if if um I know my my first ex sorry, my first ex-husband who wasn't a musical supervisor, was brought in. That sounded weird.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Let's let's cut let's do a little sidebar here.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Let's let's have the rundown on Actually, he was a musical supervisor of Lou Miz and cast me. Yeah. Is he in my programme? What was it? He would have cast you too.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Would he really? Yeah. That's so funny. Because I remember I remember because it was Ken Caswell as well, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Who was Yeah, he was associate director.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

And my first well, he was associate musical director. Oh my god. Supervisor.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

So basically, so when I was first when I was first rehearsing Gav Roche, then your ex-husband was sat at a Yamaha DX7.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

First ex-husband.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

First ex-husband was sat at the Yamaha DX7 trying to get me to sort of sing the Gav Roche stuff before we then go onto the stage. Yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

He worked with Ken. Yeah, and then they went off and did a lot of the foreign productions and stuff. So they had other people in running, you know, well, Julian Big conducting.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Just Big, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, I went out with him before I married David. David White.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

I see, I see. We had to be sure, didn't you? You had to make sure that so you learn you learn the the you move from the belting and you go to the legit, sort of legit inverted commas, by the way, operatics sound. What do you what did you have after that? Because can you access the belt and the Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

How different do they feel to sort of in terms of characterization?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

It's really interesting that you when you look at musical theatre overall and what characters, you know, which characters are written to be belted and which uh I mean look at Cosette and Epine, for instance. Um, you know, the kind of uh but then uh secret garden, so Lily is fairly legit, and Louis very exposed last note, um, that's for sure. Um but no, it doesn't go. It's just I I think it's slightly stereotyping women, if I'm going to get on my feminist bandwagon here of a type of woman that will sing legit. You know, they're always good, saintly, nice and pretty, and this and that, saintly. Um, and you'll get the tougher street urchins kind of belty people who've struggled against the odds being, you know, um characters. And it's I think it's changing slightly. Uh to me, any any there's no sort of singing that's wrong, uh unless it hurts, obviously. It's just it's just different colours, it's different colours for the palette to tell your story. So learn all of them. And now things have have evolved since you know Lema's days and Miss Saigon and when it was all belt and then high belt. Now there's you know, there's twang, there's mix, there's an American sort of sound, there's the pop. Obviously, there's there's some really fantastic musicals that are based on pop music. Um, so I think you need to be able to have all these different colours. Uh yeah, I'm not I'm not a great pop. I I'll have a a coup a couple of glasses of wine and sing a pop song. Think I sound amazing, but it's really not me. I'm way too way too musical theatre. It's it's quite funny. But um I I kind of wish I had in some ways that would have been fun. I think it I think you have to embrace all of it these days, and I know Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Well, I mean, I suppose in some ways, I mean Michael Ball's had a kind of pop career, hasn't he, without being really a pop singer and Alfie Bow. The guys have done it a bit, haven't they? Is there an equivalent?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

It's sort of like pop, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I think it's easier in America for people to cross that divide. Here we seem to think pop. musical theatre or legit you know opera and and oh acting and never the train shall meet and you know I work in a a a university that has a an acting department and and the classical singers and and I do find it it kind of ridiculous that it's separate because it's we're uh we are fundamentally all driven by the same same thing and I I I think people I I'm trying to break down that because there's no difference between what I'm what I'm teaching with acting through song as to what's being taught straight acting straight acting yeah absolutely over the last three decades or so how has um singing changed in terms of how if you went to see a musical if you went and saw Le Mirz what Phantom how has that I mean Phantom is probably quite set in some ways but can you detect stylings from like the 90s the 2000s the 210s yes definitely what what's happened? I mean now of course we've got six the musical things like that you know that which is totally pop um yes I've seen Le Mirz through the years sort of go in phases so it it it when I went in I had to sing it exactly as written you know we really really couldn't move away from that one and then at one point it went it went very pop and then people start adding riffs or they add things into it and there's more mix you know I I sort of I'm always a bit taken about when somebody sings on my own uh in a mix rather than belting because it was written to belt not to mix um but some people have very developed strong mix and they can they can do it.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

So what is mix?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Is mixed mix is fundamental in my I mean this is not a technical explanation at all but it it's fundamentally a head voice quality with lots of edge.

unknown 23:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

So it feels like head voice but it it it um and you can the more you know your voice the more you can actually so I can add uh a bit of mix into my belt voice or I can have it almost a a a belt mix. It depends on the physical what you're doing physically and the level of you know the larynx and where everything's sitting um but you can add elements of edge to make something a head voice with to become mix which sounds to anybody doesn't know will sound like much more like belt. So I can actually hear recordings of myself in the past and think I know what I I'd made a decision about how I was singing that but I when I listen to it sometimes I can't quite hear which it was um but I do a lot of a lot of this with students saying you need to go through your score and decide make a decision for every single note where you're placing it don't leave anything up to chance. This and once you've sung it and you've practiced it and it's in your you know uh rep and you're doing eight shows a week it's it's a it's a physical memory it's there. So you know I I studied opera but I haven't learned how to I haven't stopped belting. Of course not um I think it I think it's easier to learn to belt than it is to learn legit. It takes more time but and normally people begin one or the other. They're either they I I don't know I have a weird theory probably makes no sense at all that um only only children tend to be legit and the children that grow up with siblings belt are more likely to belt as say if they were going to the performing that would make it because they've had to fight for their little space yeah and they're yeah I it's not based on any research and I can't back at time.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

So it must be true. Yeah yeah no I'm wrong I'm not standing by that but it's always you know nice people all it's about you know people who find anger more easily will find belting anger and pain and and yeah yeah mess yeah so you say those are talking about lame is then so you went you go through sort of a poppy phase and then a mix phase and has there been more classical sounding phases?

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Because it's quite a classical sort of I don't know recently I look I haven't I haven't seen this the the recent you know 40th anniversary cast of it. I know I had friends who went the other day to see it. Um and I think it's I think that's perhaps in my opinion slightly odd when you're bringing together people because of their names rather than building a company to tell a story. I I'd be I haven't seen it so I can't comment on it but I I wonder how that sits. It's also there are fewer when I last saw it there are fewer people in it than there were when we did it. So the the cast is smaller and the orchestra is smaller because they changed theatres.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Oh yes did they yes they didn't they because the Palace theatre was this most amazing beautiful did you ever go in the cellar down the bottom of the Palace Theatre?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Did you ever like it's like the river is down there. The the river um fleet that's amazing I don't know yeah that's why can that's why um Edward Weaver wanted it for Phantom right but he owns it but he couldn't because the He couldn't get it because Lay Miz was a big hit.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Ha ha so yeah isn't there he thought he thought it was him for just a little season then it was gone and it was all his but no yeah yeah it's um something I remember though thinking about those stairs at the Palace Theatre I've got a question for you here Meredith okay do you remember the sequence of that walk you would do before you went on stage because I remember this is this is something ingrained in my mind it's was it a kind of a some sort of ritual or superstition that you had you used to walk down the steps you did something where you would miss two steps or you'd go Oh that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

I did notice what was that oh that's really interesting. Um well you know we're about to go on and you sort of you've got everything going through your head and I I tend to not be the kind of person I don't want to chat before I go on. You know I I I want to keep I keep very insular.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

That's something I remember about you actually is that you were very very focused as you as you went down and I kind of really understood that and actually felt a kindred spirit in that because I can be a bit like that as well I don't want to I don't want to do all that chat.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

You know it is that focus. And yes I think you're right. And what happens is it builds up over time. You probably saw me it's it is it is slightly OCD um and it's out of superstition. I think it's out of fear because it never stops being frightening. I mean I don't know about you but it it's never not frightening and you're literally put into this heightened state of fight or flight and survival even though you know you're probably not gonna die it feels like it and so your your body is primed isn't it when you've got 2,000 people standing there watching you and their evenings dependent on it and you feel the responsibility you know I was very young but you feel the responsibility I did I always have done. Yeah I mean on my own as a as a number I mean it's probably up there as the most important of all of all of the ones in there it's up there isn't it yeah you know it's people's special nights they're paid an enormous amount of money to go and see this and you want to do your best every single time um and I think the the the little rituals that build up are about safety about feeling that if I do this then and that is a form of OCD isn't it that this will happen. I mean nobody would have given it a a diagnosis or a label at the at the time but I found my way through is it that they would build up and then I would get rid of them all. So I wouldn't do any of it and I just see if the world fell apart. I'd have to think you know if I could swear if it you know that was that's it I'm gonna I don't care we'll see what happens. Not that I don't care about the performance but I have to it's got too it becomes too tiring. I always think with any habit that it habits are fine as long as they're not destructive. You know so you know having a couple of drinks is okay drinking too much obviously isn't or um or replace somebody a wise woman once said to me replace any once something gets destructive replace it with something else that isn't you know start knitting do whatever you know whatever it takes but it's only when it becomes and I think I recognize that when any with any pre-performing rituals I mean it's sensible to have a cough suite it's sensible to get centered before you go on. It's sensible to make sure you're in the right place at a certain time because you know you're gonna make the cue. So all of those things are really logical to about keeping you safe or actually just doing the job well but it feels like keeping you safe. But it's when the unnecessary thing gets billed out.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Yeah and I suppose you know if you're in the show for did you say two and a half years?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Nearly a thousand performances, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Is there anything that went wrong that you can remember from that I can absolutely tell you some screw ups that happened on my watch as well which were devastating. But of course actually sometimes people don't even notice that's happened.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah you say that I remember once I I I and I th I th I thought I was fine but I came over you know the garden scene I came over the the the the the gate and and to to Valjean who's standing there and it that's meant to be you know I'm there in the coat whatever I have a lesson monsieur is addressed to your daughter cassette is from a boy in the barricade sir in the route of Elette right and I came over there looked at him and went I didn't even know what a word was let alone the whole of the two phrases I think and he just I can't remember it was Stig Rosson who was playing it and he literally just turned upstage and started laughing. I mean he was giggling away and I just stood there going hm thinking and then it passed it's fine and then of course on my own as soon afterwards the rest of the show was absolutely fine. And then I I left thinking oh no one will notice no it's fine and all these you know you get these regular fans who go I left outstage and they're like oh my god that moment that you I thought yeah everybody noticed yeah okay no I didn't get away with it at all and the other one was phantom I just remember I mean this is only my my my mess ups but walking in there's a point she walks in and goes singing singing the the opera and they're you know that meant and I just walked on and obviously I I I guess I hadn't done my ritual I don't know but I would I walked on and started an octave too high.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Oh my god and literally as a company they turned upstage and laughed I mean it was so because they're all standing there waiting for you and I just there fortunately it's only a brief moment but there was no way there was nowhere to go with it because you just like yeah okay but no that was that was fine I don't think anyone noticed but oh gosh oh gosh well now you've very generously shared your what was yours well actually I tell you what you came straight after me in in the one that I really remember and it was it was awful there was that something happened and there was a little an announcement on the speakers before we went went on and everything saying um oh we've got some problems with the with the feedback with the with the monitors today so you might not hear all the instrumentation yeah coming through yeah and we were okay fine fine fine so the show was going all right but we were it was just really weird just couldn't really hear but so much of it was based on the keyboards and it was the keyboards that were playing up we weren't hearing and um I just remember there's that bit after stars where little Gavrosh comes in with that inspector thinks he's burned in and oh yeah and I'm sitting at the top about to go Cosette now I remember yep yep yeah so you're sat there waiting so you this you will have been there while this happened. But basically what happened I just didn't hear my introduction and and and the conductor the conductor was just kind of looking at the score and then I just saw him look up at me and that's all the reflections and I just strained like I hear the little bass part going oh no and I got to the end and going and I just got the last couple of lines out and then it revolved around and I remember going back off stage feeling absolutely think I remember and I'm not just saying that because I do remember a thing going out and saying that we're not getting all the fallback of the instruments. It was a bit of a screw up actually it was the one time I mean it just it was it was it wasn't your fault. I think other people had problems as well but of course I'm totally focused on my own kind of No actually I think I think often someone in the choral sections I think there were moments where the chorus had to stop singing for the soloists to be heard yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Oh it happens to everybody as well the opening night of um Manchester we had the the set broke down the revolt the revolve stopped so you know we had that and then we of course that was plan B wasn't there um the limits without the revolve plan C was continuous revolve you know like what do you do if it never stops and you can't get off.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Yeah so with things going wrong in performance which they they can some of these things though I I don't know if you think this they're so terrifying if you knew what was going to happen in advance but in the moment that you have to deal with it very often actually you just get on and do it. And that's sort of something I suppose you must instill in your students a little bit is that there are so many things beyond your control and you have to You You do.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

You just have to sort of carry on but I think that's the beauty of it. And then when you're working with people you like and in a nice company you are together doing that, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I wasn't there at the time but I know that David Burt when he was on jare apparently the the the guns didn't go off you know the big battle um no wait they didn't press the button. Oh I was there when they pressed stream instead of scream you know when I run up or the epony runs up and goes ha ha I ran up to the gate went ha and it was just whoosh whoosh whoosh and it was like what did you switch to the suicide suicide I know it was really fun um but though with Bertie who was up there and apparently so they they the guns just didn't go off and he waited it was there and he just went we've won amazing just completely changed the story so empty chairs and empty tables everyone still sitting just sitting around yeah you're absolutely right oh I love I love that danger you know of somebody I was never that brave but to do that is so cool.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

It's so cool. Well it reminds me we we both in the show had our own death scene which was pretty impressive that's that's really something else. Yeah but in one of my death scenes they introduced dat tape I think to trigger the sound effects probably a bit the same with the like the stream stuff. So with the gunshots that were meant to shoot me I meant to die by three gunshots. Yeah I died by about 29 of them. No yeah it seemed to it it got stuck or something it sort of jammed and then it was like a machine gun. Yeah it was a total it was a total machine gun in 1832 or whatever it was did you did you keep did you keep moving? I just I think I just I just crouched down and screamed as if they were exploding all around me and then carried on did the last minute I thought that's clever I thought I'd better finish the song but I do remember having I do remember turning around looking at the people watching at the barricade and their all their shoulders were shaking instead of they were just in total hysterics.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah they're not loyal at all at those points when something goes wrong they they just turn around and shake.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Are you a giggler as well?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Because I am oh yeah I take it so seriously but I can still really dissolve into laughter too oh corpsing is just awful it still happens to me occasionally I mean my fri it's not as often these days but I've been timed for the amount of time there I you know once I start and you can't stop because something is just so it's awful when you do it in front of students. You know I've got a a thing of 40 students there and I I've gone off on some tangent and have made myself laugh and then oh God it still happens.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

The thing is it's it's more acceptable to cry isn't it it's more acceptable to be moved to tears than to laugh but the worst part I always think about corpsing not only is it that kind of school fear of being of laughing in assembly about to be told off but it's also that thing is it doesn't mean you're not taking it seriously it doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to you that you're kind of just going to but that's what it reads as people think well if you were really serious about this you know I know well anyway Meredith Meredith this has been such a thrill to talk to you after 34 years. Don't say that I'm glad to hear that the 21st century's been good to you so far. Yeah no oh my great good well um I think I think if it's going to be 34 years our next chat will be in 2059 Well that'd be a hologram or a or a QR code or something by then.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Exactly or you'll have just uploaded I do think it's a funny idea that you think on a gravestone to have a QR code that you could just scan it. Yeah my spotlight or you could for me it would it would just be Muppets I mean and but you know what if that's what I'm remembered by my children I hope for other reasons. But um if I I do hope that maybe I've left you know more than that but in terms of what a lovely thing to be associated with.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

So you know what a gift it's the gift that just carries on giving honestly every every year and I just I love it. I'm a su I'm still such a huge fan.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Great well that's lovely to hear because everyone listening is too so that's brilliant so thank you bye for now.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

And you can now hear Meredith sing her song from the Muppets When Love is gone which she re-recorded with her son playing the cello a special thank you to Tim Hutton founder of Stage Door Records for allowing us to play it to you now.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Happy Christmas There was a time when I was sure that you and I were truly one that our future was forever and would never come under and we came too close to being close and though you cared for me as distance in your eyes tonight that we're not meant to be the love is gone the love is gone sweetest we have ever known the love is gone the love is gone I wish you well but I must leave you now alone there comes a moment in your life like a window and you see your future there before you and how perfect life can be but adventure calls with unknown voices bling you away be careful or you may regret the choice you make someday when love is gone when love is gone the sweetest dream that we have ever known when love is gone when love is gone I wish you well but I must leave you now it was almost love it was almost always it was like a fairy tale we'd live out you and yes some dreams come true and yes some dreams come true and yes the time has come for us to say goodbye yes some dreams come true and yes some dreams and yes the time has come for us to say goodbye